A Cold War with China

American empire is collapsing and the powers that be want and need someone to blame.

Yeah I was thinking it’s probably because Americans and Europeans sense their own decline.

It's clownishly stupid. China will win.

Has China ever won any war in the last 200 years?

R4, the question is:

What have they actively they done to us to warrant the hostility?

r5, do you know we are in a pandemic?

China’s sweeping claims of sovereignty over the sea—and the sea’s estimated 11 billion barrels of untapped oil and 190 trillion cubic feet of natural gas—have antagonized competing claimants Brunei, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, Taiwan, and Vietnam. As early as the 1970s, countries began to claim islands and various zones in the South China Sea, such as the Spratly Islands, which possess rich natural resources and fishing areas.

China maintains [PDF] that, under international law, foreign militaries are not able to conduct intelligence-gathering activities, such as reconnaissance flights, in its exclusive economic zone (EEZ). According to the United States, claimant countries, under UN Convention of the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), should have freedom of navigation through EEZs in the sea and are not required to notify claimants of military activities. In July 2016, the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague issued its ruling on a claim brought against China by the Philippines under UNCLOS, ruling in favor of the Philippines on almost every count. While China is a signatory to the treaty, which established the tribunal, it refuses to accept the court’s authority.

R7, what does that have to do with America? China isn’t making any claims against us. There’s no active hostility towards us in their handling of the matter.

[quote]What have they actively done to us in particular to warrant such rage?

DL lacks the capacity to hold a list of all the things that China has done to the US, but none are worse than what conservatives and the Republican Party have done to aid and abet China's stated goal, to be the last and only superpower on the planet. They offshore jobs directly to China. They allow China unfair advantage in intellectual property, manufacturing, distribution and trade. And the citizens of the US stare blankly at their teevees — manufactured in China, of course — blaring Fox News lies, completely oblivious to basic facts:

- China doesn't just use slave labor; it's a central pillar to their economy. - China doesn't just ignore intellectual property; theft of IP is integral to China's growth and dominance - China doesn't just deny human rights; it views democracy, individuality and personal freedom as problems to brutally terminate - China doesn't just engage in predatory international trade; it weaponized trade, mostly to the detriment of the US and Western interests.

I had to laugh at the email the American Family Association (Don Wildmon's group) sent yesterday, expressing outrage at the persecution of Christians in China, and specifically in Hong Kong. The funny part was that all the AFA could suggest is prayer (afterall, it's literally the least one can do). It is surprising that the AFA weighed in on the matter. It's a Pandora's box that they'll be sorry they opened.

China has yet again taken advantage of a weakened US under Donald Trump, and asserted control over what was essentially the independent city/state, knowing that the US is in such dire straights thanks to Trump's outright failures on everything from Coronavirus to trade that there is simply no way for us to prevent Hong Kong's slide into authoritarianism; I mean, we could start a hot war, but let's be honest and ask ourselves how we would raise an army when we can't even go to the grocery store, let alone live, work, and eat in the same room. China, of course, doesn't have this problem. They have 1.2 billion citizens, and think nothing of literally shoving their sick and dying into ovens, screaming as they're incinerated, under the banner of doing what's necessary to protect its people.

We have no trade authority thanks to Trump's failures, and Trump is only making matters worse with each passing day. For example, Trump sacrificed US meat processing plant workers a couple of months ago when the pandemic was just getting going. He used his executive power to issue an order for meat processing plants to remain open, ostensibly to keep the US supply chain flowing... and only after thousands of such workers tested positive for Covid-19 and started dying in numbers large enough to notice that we discovered the reason for rumoured meat shortages: China had placed one of the largest orders ever for pork products, and US workers gave up their health, jobs and lives to fill the order. The conservative-owned meat companies made a fortune on the backs of US workers, their families and communities (and of course the same companies took PPP and EIDL loans, which means that you and I, US taxpayers, paid the wages of those workers to process pork for China). Who in their right mind thinks it is merely a coincidence that China placed this humongous order for pork products at this time?

Donald Trump is going to go on an all-out assault on Joe Biden and China, attempting to project his failure to manage China on Biden because this is what republicans do. There's one telling difference between Trump and Biden on this score: Trump is in hawk up to his eyeballs to China and Chinese interests. Trump asked China's President Xi for help in the election, and Xi wisely sat back and smiled. They have Trump exactly where they want him.

They deliberately inflicted Covid-19 on the world.

China is bad.

Let's get rid of Trump so we can have somebody competent deal with Russia and China.

China steals American intellectual property all the time. Our technology, cars, planes, military, everything they have stolen from us. They have banned all of our technology companies but have pushed theirs on us. They lied about covid-19. They threaten some of our closes allies, Taiwan, Japan and South Korea. As far as being afraid of China, I wouldn't worry too much at least now. We spend four times as much on our military as China does ever year. We have the nuclear capability to wipe China of the face of the earth in minutes.

Agree with most everything R9 said

[quote]Who in their right mind thinks it is merely a coincidence that China placed this humongous order for pork products at this time?

It probably was just a coincidence. They've had a pretty bad African swine flu that's estimated to have killed more than 50% of their pigs.

[quote] Is it just a feeling of insecurity on our part, as we sense that the world order is changing?

Wonderful, now we have Russian (Natasha/Boris) AND Chinese (Chang/Ling) bots on DL. If you genuinely want to understand why America and the rest of the world should be afraid of China, please read some of the posts above.

China has her own problems. For one she's encircled by new and ancient enemies both around her perimeter (Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, Mongolia, India) and even within (Tibetans and Uyghurs). Things are not going to be smooth sailing for her either.

Don't forget Hong Kong. America should allow Hong Kong citizens in, as refugees.

China's ascent is about to hit a cold, hard ceiling.

[quote]China has 34 million more men than women, because of a preference for male heirs and a history of selective abortions. By 2020, China will have 24 million single men of marrying age unable to find wives. Imagine the combined male populations of Texas and New York State were perpetually lonely, depressed and sexually unfulfilled. The consequences could be dramatic; multiple studies implicate gender imbalances in maladies including reduced consumption and real estate bubbles, and correlate with spikes in violent crime, spousal abuse, trafficking and prostitution.

Imagine an army of 24 million Incel losers.

I've said many times here I think the fear of China is overblown. They have real structural problems (massive poverty in the underdeveloped west and internal security issues). The Soviet Union had those things as well but two things the USSR had that China does not is admiration from Third World countries and also a firm military grip on Eastern Europe. China doesn't have either of those things. I mean, who are China's allies? Some countries in Africa maybe that would work with anyone who's willing to invest.

Scapegoating and Straw Men.

The Tea Party did this to deflect from George W. Bush's failures in Iraq and New Orleans.

Republicans did it again with Trump's mostly symbolic, anti-immigrant and foreign trade agenda.

If Trump really wanted to put America first, he would remove "Most Favored Nation Status" to Chinese trade and ban or tax the shit out of corporations who manufacture and outsource jobs in China.

That would NEVER fly with the Republican Party's greed wing, so lip service and cosmetic procedures is all you get.

They need it to distract from Trump's colossal failures now.

[quote]China has her own problems. For one she's encircled by new and ancient enemies both around her perimeter (Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, Mongolia, India) and even within (Tibetans and Uyghurs). Things are not going to be smooth sailing for her either.

China is a girl?

R20, I've always thought so. Some countries are more female-presenting than others, like Russia. Russia is known as Mother Russia, therefore it is also a she.

If the cold war turned hot, r17, China would have a lot of men with little to lose to draft into the military.

Well, there is "God Bless America" where America is referred to as "her".

I think China is just waiting for the US to implode. They won't have to fight us we will give up our country. Look at all the attacks on the under pinnings of our country. We have people who don't respect anything about our country and it is getting worse. I believe we would have trouble getting people to sign for the draft if we needed them to fight. I think they will just lay down. I am so happy I am toward the end of my life. I don't want to think about what our country will be like in the future. It makes me sick...

R14, please go ahead and block me.

The insecurity in this thread about China is glaring. It tells you more about America than China.

Order. Security. Prosperity.

China remains obsessed with Singapore, the only country in the region to achieve advanced economic industrialization without undergoing substantial political liberalization. The key “lesson” that China is trying to learn is how to combine authoritarian rule with “good governance” (“meritocratic” one-party rule).

The term "China's rise" was coined by Westerners. Influenced by the West, some Chinese people also began using them but added a determiner to make it China's "peaceful rise." Nonetheless, Chinese officials never used such words, but rather spoke of "peaceful development."

The old powers rose in two ways - to colonize or to launch wars. In the Spanish-American War, the US seized the Philippines from Spain. Japan invaded others and launched wars to gain chances to rise too. Big countries were ruthless in their competition for spheres of influence - the US drove European countries out of the Americas with Monroe Doctrine.

In other words, all big countries except China have risen through military expansion. Historically, their rise and decline was actually a song of blood and fire.

China is the only big power whose development has been based on its people's hard work. New China never colonized or launched a war aiming at invasion. Although there have been frictions at border areas, China hasn't had a border war for over 30 years.

China started from the bottom of the world's industrial chain. Chinese people are willing to take the most laborious job and they like saving money. Today, working overtime is normal in China. I myself haven't taken any annual leave for more than a decade. Some of my friends don't take a break even during Spring Festival - this celebration is to Chinese what Christmas is to many Westerners. China's prosperity has been accumulated bit by bit in such way.

First and foremost, China refused Trump’s demand that it help him win re-election. Have you all forgotten already?

It’s being scapegoated for the coronavirus by Trump, to deflect from his own mismanagement. The fact is that the virus got away from China. It [italic] beat [/italic] China, just like it is beating the US. It is ridiculous to blame China for the virus as if it loaded it into a missile and fired at Times Square, as Trump seems to imply.

China is flexing its muscle in the South China Sea. At least once a year, the US sends a military fleet through these waters to stress our position that it is international waters, not Chinese coastal waters.

Trump played a weak hand with a China sanctions, and they just went elsewhere for goods. They imposed retaliatory tariffs on Red state goods like Iowa corn.

They’ve actually been restrained, knowing Trump is an aberration with limited time in office. Joe will repair most of the problem, though the South China Sea business in intractable.

China is a regional power and not a superpower. Even their nuclear weapons are limited in number and defensive in nature.

Their biggest threat is water wars with fellow nuclear powers India and Pakistan. All different cultures with different religious backgrounds, so little to bind them together. .

If America wants to kneecap China, it should topple Kim Jong Un and install a pro-US transitional military government in NK.

China just want security and leadership of its region. It’s not looking to have military bases around the world like America. It just wants internal security and secure borders. It wants to grow ever richer, so its citizens and firms can simply buy the world. It’s a peaceful rise that the US and EU just can’t accept

The Chinese probably have a covid-19 vaccine already. Good luck getting them to share after all of this.

[quote] R29: In other words, all big countries except China have risen through military expansion.

Now, that’s just not true. Not only did China take Tibet by force, it has been relocating Han Chinese there in an effort to gain an ethnic Chinese majority. Classic colonialism. Likewise, there are western sections of China that are populated by non-ethnic Chinese that could easily be independent nations based on their unique characterizations.

And China up is essentially colonizing the South Chinese sea.

Taiwan is traditionally part of China, but the reality today is that it has developed independently with its own language and culture. It’s not threat to a China and both should renounce claimed in each other and become good, independent, allies.

Am I wrong about any of this!

R34, Tibet has been assimilated. China points to historical maps to justify its borders.

I believe they’ll expand the present borders into Russia sometime this century.

[quote] Tibet has been assimilated.

The Tibetan people beg to differ.

Tibet’s finished. Irreversibly assimilated. It took 30 years of concerted effort. Remember when Free Tibet was a thing in the 1990s?

Tibet’s successful assimilation is why the media have turned to Xinjiang. Because it’s the current project. It’ll be assimilated in 20 years.

Next will be restoration of greater Manchuria. All the way to Sakhalin.

China will reclaim Siberia.

Wish they’d just ignore Taiwan.

Russia and China going to war, eh? Bring out the popcorn for that one.

OP is a fucking moron, insisting that China’s rise is inexorable, preeminent, and that the US, the richest, most advanced country in the world dare not challenge it. Completely ridiculous, defeatist thinking like this is how China has risen so quickly, aided and abetted by corrupt politicians and business leaders, who put profits above long-term geostrategic objectives to ensure that the US maintains its global leadership.

China is still a largely poor country, even in the larger coastal cities (per capita GDP $10k USD). It is a paper tiger, whose economy is saddled with insane amounts of corporate, SOE, and private debt (over 300% to GDP). Moreover, studies have shown Chinas real GDP is likely 30% smaller than official figures because since at least 2008, China has fudged its annual GDP by roughly 2%.

China has very few allies, and the Wuhan virus it knowingly unleashed upon the world, it’s disablement of Hong Kong sovereignty, and it’s aggressive posturing in the South China Sea have made democracies like India, Australia, the U.K., Japan, and Canada reassess their relationship and dependence on China.

Toppling Kim and setting up a pro-American administration in NK would be a gut punch to China. Truly.

Yes, China doesn’t particularly like Kim, but NK is still one of its few allies. And it borders China.

China would freak out. It’d be humiliated.

[quote] Vietnam's early history is dominated by China, which tended to regard its southern neighbour as a province - albeit a somewhat unruly one. In 111 BC the Han Dynasty formally annexed what was then called Nam Viet - and the country remained part of China for a thousand years.

Maybe they’ll expand south by land as well.

The US isn’t picking a fight with a China. China has been ripping off the US for years, stealing and hacking technology at a rate and depth that is astonishing even to most national security experts. China has made it clear they want to displace the US as the worlds preeminent superpower and are aggressively building up their military and bullying smaller nations in the South China Sea, challenging the US in space, trying to strongarm Western countries into adopting state-owned spying telecom equipment from Huawei, developing their own central bank-backed digital currency to displace the Dollar as the world’s reserve currency, committing hunan rights abuses against Uigher Muslims, etc. Communist China is a menace to the world and must be defeated.

R42 Try us.

I wish this they’d rename their Communist party. They’re not really communist anymore.

Maybe China can use any attack by another country claiming parts of the South China Sea as an opportunity to acquire the particular country. Vietnam, etc.

China has said, as recently as the early Trump years, that a North Korean attack on the South/West would be on their own; however, a US attack on North Korea would cause them to enter the war on behalf of their neighbor. So, there is no military solution that isn’t an unprecedented disaster. If there was anyplace that called for an impenetrable wall, the N/S border is it.

China does not want a US ally, a united Korea, on its border. Period. As for China’s other international actions, I can’t fault them for doing what any country does - pursue its interests to acquire raw materials to keep its people progressing. The US needs to keep at it as well. Though, China’s actions in the South China Sea are questionable since multiple countries all have equally valid, or more valid, claims to the same territory, and they ought to settle that before those areas become even more critical to each of them.

I, personally, wonder if China can keep it together, figuratively and literally, for example, when they face something like a deep recession plus a natural disaster. They haven’t had a real recession in decades. Democracies, real ones, have a built-in escape valve because they are elected, and people, voters, share responsibility for the crap that happens. Not so with China, Russia, and elsewhere.

[quote] If the cold war turned hot, [R17], China would have a lot of men with little to lose to draft into the military.

You’re assuming that they would willing fight for the system that put them in their position in the first place.

A Cold War with China

It's important to have nice table settings, even in a disturbance.

The Chinese leader once said something interesting to the US President. (Might have been Chou en Lai and Nixon)

“How many men are you willing to lose in a war over Taiwan? We, ourselves, are willing to lose two million.”

And that, folks, is that.

Personally, I believe that China will eventually hit their first recession in a generation soon. Probably due to a worldwide COVID recession. This will put unprecedented stress on the Chinese Economy and the people there, who have been “bought off” by an ever-rising standard of living, are going to revolt. It will an unprecedented revolution in a (partially) first world nation, in a global world, so we will all be affected,

I am stocking up on those little parasails that you put in cute cocktails as I type.

The mess that is China’s claims on disputed territory, short and sweet.

Creepiest major dictatorship ever!

Hopefully all western countries cut trade deals and restrict Chinese investment. The less powerful they become, the better.

I like how they don’t bow to Western concerns re race and religion. They don’t care about the demands of particular ethnic groups, and no one’s obsessed with defending the practice of religion.

Black Americans complain that Chinese pop music takes from Black culture without “acknowledging” doing so (i.e. giving gratuitous payments for it). That kind of reasoning and complaining may work in the West, but the Chinese laugh.

I think Western media in particular revile China because it can’t be controlled by Western media and finance.

Western interests can’t leverage slavery, past colonialism, and/or the Holocaust to exercise control over China. There’s no angle that works with them. They don’t care about elite opinion in the West.

This is how they see us now. They laugh.

They don’t care about our race neuroses.

[quote] I like how they don’t bow to Western concerns re race and religion.

I wouldn't feel quite so complacent and smug if I were them. They have a major Uyghur problem a-brewing. None of China's neighbors like her either.

They have a growing drug problem as well.

Their old nemesis, Japan, is trolling them again.

R17, you picked the funniest factoid from that Time article, but the really pressing one for the Chinese government is different.

Their biggest problem is that, thanks to decades and decades of a one-child policy, from 1980 until 2016, the generations older than Chinese millennials and gen zs are going to completely swamp those younger generations, which thanks to the policy are vastly smaller than the generations now entering middle age and senior citizen status. There will be a gigantic number of old people who need support and only a (comparatively) small number of younger people to support them.

It’s a vast understatement to say that this is quite a problem. It’s a looming crisis that has already caused a major rethink in Chinese government circles about ambitious plans of expansion.

R57, that article shows one way they’ve decided to handle their ethnic unrest. Looks like it’s unfolding as planned.

And there’s not a single thing anyone in the West can do about it.

R58, Japan isn’t much of a concern anymore. The US and EU are the concern.

They don’t care what we think.

[quote] While China's young people are more tolerant of concepts like same-sex marriage than are their older neighbors, they hold more illiberal views on questions of race, religion, and human rights. Younger mainland Chinese are more supportive of authoritarianism than are older generations. And more affluent Chinese, those who can travel and access information beyond China's censors, express attitudes similar to their less affluent peers'. Journalist accounts suggest that they are hostile toward Hong Kong protesters as well, believing them to be suffering from "post-prosperity arrogance."

R61, when you are surrounded on all sides by neighboring countries that hate you -- and who are more likely to cooperate with enemy conspirators than they are with you -- then you have a major problem on your hands.

We underestimate how unfettered by Western sensibilities they are. There’s no angle from which to shame them into obeying us.

R64, which countries are you talking about? Who are these deadly regional powers?

R66, if you're asking me which neighboring countries don't like China, that's already been answered above.

R68, I’m asking who are the particular neighbors who pose significant threats to China.

R68, any land border willing to work with China's enemies is a significant threat to her.

R69, and which countries are they? Which neighboring countries dislike China to the extent they would take any action against it by itself or in collaboration with China’s rivals? Which neighboring countries have such capacity and inclination?

India has a border with China and the Indians hate the Chinese. India’s population will surpass china’s in a few decades.

R70, um ....

iPhone: still assembled in China

Samsung: no more.

A good neighbor.

R70, are you from China? Your level of questioning and defensiveness seems amped up and like you are taking this conversation extremely personally for whatever reason.

To answer your question, it's very hard to gauge which of China's neighbors hate her the most at any given moment. Mongolia and Vietnam are probably neck-and-neck. Japan seems to be the old high school bully which has fed them an inferiority complex for decades. India is not too happy right now either with that little recent border skirmish. Taiwan and the Philippines kind of hate her too. I don't know how many more regional enemies China can afford to have?

R75, no. It’s the imprecision of the answers that’s annoying.

China needs the rest of the world more than the rest of the world needs China. I'd far rather have a strong American influence internationally than a strong Chinese one. Because as problematic as the US can be, China is a far worse alternative.

Speaking of Japan, weren’t they going destroy us economically back in the 80s or 90s.

If it turns hot, all they have are Nukes. And we have many more. Plus, that would turn the whole world against them. But that is one of the reasons we have those Star Wars rigs in Alaska. And theirs haven’t field tested in actual wars.

Which brings me to one question. How many carrier groups does China have?

Ok, I took a closer look and supposedly their two Ski Ramp carriers are now operational. If you’ve watched footage of these carriers or their Russian counterparts you know how comical they are. But China is ramping up their production schedule of carriers and nuclear submarines.

Plus, we kinda have our pants around our ankles right now with the missile defense programs. So even though currently we have an advantage that could change soon.

America is just insane.

[r78] How many carrier groups does China have?

Do you really think they're going to go the military route? I don't think so.

R75, do you see your imprecision? The question was: who hates China and is inclined to actually do something about it? You just speculated on who hates China.

[quote] Which neighboring countries dislike China to the extent they would take any action against it by itself or in collaboration with China’s rivals? Which neighboring countries have such capacity and inclination?

That's what got me worked up. When one is asking "what is A and B" the "and" narrows things down, so that everything that's A must also be B to be part of the set to which the compound question applies. That I had to ask you three times (and again, here) was what was annoying lol.

Question: Is there a way that China can acquire Mongolia? I know they have "Inner Mongolia," but I'm asking about the presently independent country. It just seems like a natural fit.

They are not to be trusted. Toxic nationalism is driving these expansion politics, along with an inferior complex towards the West.

China is an evil empire that can never be trusted. Ask all its neighbors...they have war going on with all of them..india,russia,mongolia,japan, korea, all counties in the Pacific ocean...it's the sun that needs to be eradicated

They invented the cat.

Meow? I beg your pardon?

Houston fire and police respond to reports of documents being burned at Consulate General of China

The consulate is about to be evicted.

R86, China has contributed countless inventions and innovations to mankind and I admire their historic culture/civilization. I just believe the idea that their modern government is going to just steamroll over the US/EU/rest of Asia to be wrong.

Beijing vows to retaliate after US demands the closure of Houston consulate

China labels US demand as ‘unprecedented escalation’

US media reported that Houston emergency services were called to reports that documents were being burned in the courtyard of the Consulate General in Houston

. . .

“This is a crazy move. The consulate general is the first Chinese CG in the United States. The US has not only asked to close it, but requested evacuation within three days. This is absolute madness. There is apparently no bottom line for some people in Washington. The current US administration is willing to do anything now,” Hu said.

rest of story at link

China will retaliate big-time.

They been retaliating against us for years! Bought off our politicians (Clinton's big time) and stolen everything including the kitchen sink!!

i'm glad all of China's neighbors hate them.

Time to officially acknowledge Taiwan!

Joe Biden said he would sanction China over Hong Kong and covid19, and this is the correct thing to do! EU, Japan, South Korea, Australia and US need to consolidate their trading muscles to weaken China and put them in their place.

Nothing good ever comes out of appeasing creepy dictatorships.

^^^Yes please--provide refugee status to Taiwanese and Hong Kong people and let them in!

Taiwan people don't need refuge, they already live in a stable democracy. However Taiwan needs to be protected from Chinese aggression. Hong Kong people need help urgently. Several countries have already given refuge to these brave young people fighting for human right and democracy in Hong Kong. Time for the US to do the same!

For idiots who have never been out of the Country, the US already lost tons of businesses in other countries to China. China has been meddling in these other countries politics, buying their politicians and going all systems go with corruption. American/Japanese/European businesses cant compete at all as they are turning all these other countries into little chinas. The people dont like them, but their politicians are all paid off. They are all over asia and africa, they give out loans with crazy interest. There is so much construction going on in all of Asia (buildings/rails/roads) all going to chinese companies, when these used to be japanese/american/german. You all know how subpar their work is. Sure the US meddled like the corrupt assholes that they are in the 80s/90s and this is just China giving them a dose of their own medicine. But american businesses cannot expand anymore since they lost their influence and this has trickled down to ordinary americans. Moral of the story: if you dont expand, you slowly die.

[quote]China has done to the US, but none are worse than what conservatives and the Republican Party have done to aid and abet China's stated goal, to be the last and only superpower on the planet. They offshore jobs directly to China. They allow China unfair advantage in intellectual property, manufacturing, distribution and trade. And the citizens of the US stare blankly at their teevees — manufactured in China, of course — blaring Fox News lies, completely oblivious to basic facts:

Democrats are also guilty of this. It's all about money and power, not political affiliations.

You forget one thing R98.

The US encourages democracy internationally (at least with democratic presidents at the helm), China or Russia NEVER EVER will.

Right, America has done bad things but also good things too. Imagine a world where Russia or China is the sole superpower. Any normal person except for the most extreme left-wing "anti-imperialist" should be terrified of that thought.

[quote]They invented the cat.

I thought cats were originally native to the Middle East.

It's absolutely no surprise that Putin's puppet is destroying western alliances. Corrupt regimes like Russia and China only can wield their power when western alliances are weak, they have been increasingly cooperating on intelligence sharing. A Trump presidency is very handy for Russia and in consequence for China.

Hillary and before her Bill Clinton understood the importance of strong western alliances like no other US president before. Bill was very adamant about a united Europe - EU.

R103 Trump is a trojan horse, pretending to be at war with china, but he actually handed ovr the US to China by being isolating the US from the rest of the world. Its true, western alliances are at its lowest now and why China is pouncing. Japan and Australia have been alarmed at the prospect of losing shipping lanes for trade in the south china sea (which the US also uses) but Trump has done nothing but antagonize these other countries that are his allies.

The US has supported some of the world’s worst dictators, the Taliban, AlQaeda in its earliest forms so they arent saints at all. The reality is, there is no purity test for geopolitics, you just go along with what is most consistent with your world view. China and Russia are masters of propaganda, facebook is being used as a tool. Before Trump and Brexit, they test drove their tactics in smaller countries and ran away with it. Now all these african and asian countries have leaders that have been bought and paid for. That is a huge market and sphere of influence that is now lost and will take years, if ever to recover.

The US supported the mujaheddin and Saudi Arabia to expel Russia out of Afghanistan. These have always been tricky alliances because they have their own agenda, which doesn't align with the West's.

Black and white morality generally doesn't work with geopolitics. Especially when it comes to foming alliances.

No unfortunately not. It's an imperfect world and there are always agendas by non western countries. But fact is that, if you value democracy, human rights, freedom of speech etc, and you live in a western country you don't cooperate with Russia or China.

That's why I hate people like Bernie Sanders, AOC, Tlaib, Omar, Corbyn and their ilk.

I posted this article before, but got no response unfortunately.

The essence of the article is:

1. Russia is the main threat.

2. Russia conducts political influence activities, and the main purpose is to weaken the European Union (EU) and NATO.

3. Russia is targeting populations; their approach is divide and rule.

4. Russia uses minorities, refugees and extremists to further its divide and rule approach.

5. Human intelligence is an important covert tool of influence.

6. Cyber operations are another important covert tool of influence.

7. The energy sector, business and corruption are used as venues for influence.

8. There is an extensive use of allies and front organizations.

9. Russia is reconstructing reality and rewriting history to legitimize itself and undermine others.

10. Military force is the ultimate tool of influence.

China operates like Russia, adapting the same tactics.

R107, if Russia and China really do form a real alliance, the whole world should be terrified.

Whenever the US needs an enemy, the media is quite happy to comply. Suddenly China is evil and intent on taking over the world. Every news story is negative.

What’s the worst China can conceivably do, really? Expand their territory a bit, become the largest economy, colonize Mars, what else?

It’s not that terrible.

The US is just as evil as China (look at the US’ invasion of the world—literally with armies or financially).

The problem is with such terribly leadership, the US is plodding along on the way to death

[quote]The US supported the mujaheddin and Saudi Arabia to expel Russia out of Afghanistan. These have always been tricky alliances because they have their own agenda, which doesn't align with the West's.

You have to pick the devil you know. Nobody in that godforsaken shithole region of the world has Western values, and they never will. The West just has to try and pick the least appalling choice, but they're all complete tyrants.

[quote]The US is just as evil as China

You're an idiot R111.

The US is far from perfect, but this kind of comparison is manipulated by outside hostile propaganda and you're the stupid sucker who still keeps falling for it.

[quote] The US is just as evil as China

No, they aren't. Yes, America has done bad things and it would be stupid to deny that. But China is far worse.

Ask all of China's neighbors how much they "love" China. Most of them would prefer America any day.

China isn’t trying to export its governmental form. Unlike the US.

China just wants to get rich. I really don’t think there’s much to fear. I just wish they’d help get rid of the North Korean regime.

Make North Korea into a capitalist authoritarian state ruled by committee, like China, with the hope of a Taiwan/ROK-style democratization and merger with South Korea several decades in the future.

Or let South Korea run it under a transitional administrative government, like the US in Japan after WW2. South Korea could remove US troops from its territory n exchange. And maybe declare itself neutral, like Switzerland.

Fuck off, Chinaphile Op.

[quote]China isn’t trying to export its governmental form. Unlike the US.

Idiot!

China, just like Russia has been bribing western politician left and right, they steal tech wherever they can. US/EU promotes democracy, China/Russia/NK/Saudia Arabia/Iran never does and never will.

Unpacking the China-Russia ‘alliance’

The United States appears to be settling in for a protracted period of great power military competition. Ever since Russia seized Crimea and militarily intervened in Ukraine, and as China moved onto islands across the South China Sea while claiming almost all surrounding waterways, American defense officials determined that rogue states and terrorist organizations should no longer be the epicenter of war planning and military resource allocation. The third offset strategy of the Obama administration and the national defense strategy of the Trump administration have followed, with their explicit reprioritization of defense objectives. After a quarter-century without major worries over great power competition, we find ourselves in an era that some now consider, rightly or wrongly, echoes the Cold War.

China and Russia no longer share a common expansionist ideology, but realpolitik considerations are driving them together.

Lol, China has been exporting their undemocratic world order, and its been bought and paid for by Trump himself, who claims to hate China so much he is copying their propaganda and dictatorial ideals.

R118, they’re still not exporting their form of government. There are no Maoist insurgencies backed by China anymore.

They just want to make money. I kind of don’t care if they steal IP: I don’t own any companies they’re stealing from, and the US has done the same.

Also, when they implement the tech in new products, they’ll be cheaper and better than what American companies can offer.

[quote] if Russia and China really do form a real alliance, the whole world should be terrified.

They won't. China is intent on stealing Siberia away.

America, reformed IP pirate.

R124, paywalled.

The Kremlin’s disinformation playbook goes to Beijing

The coronavirus pandemic is laying bare a growing competition between democratic and authoritarian governments. As the U.S. and Europe struggle to contain the virus at home, Russia and China are seizing the moment to enhance their international influence through information operations. Moscow and Beijing have long aimed to weaken the United States, blunt the appeal of democratic institutions, and sow divisions across the West. Their goals in this crisis are no different.

Chinaphile

Sinophile or Chinophile, if you please

Opinion

US-China trade dispute Americans are wrong to paint China as an intellectual property thief

Now that the US has reached the top of the ladder of tech supremacy, it wants to kick it away

GU BIN

JANUARY 14 2020

The writer is associate law professor at Beijing Foreign Studies University and author of ‘The Law and Governance of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank’

It has become politically correct in the US to call China a thief, bent on stealing American intellectual property. In 2018, this rhetoric was formalised in a “Section 301” investigation by the US trade representative. President Donald Trump used allegations of state-sponsored IP theft as justification to trigger a prolonged trade war between the countries.

This week, the US and China are due to sign phase one of a trade deal to lessen tensions, under which China will boost imports from the US in return for a reduction in American tariffs. But the allegations of IP theft continue to sow mistrust between the two sides, bringing a long, co-operative relationship to the verge of collapse.

What the US calls theft began as technical co-operation 40 years ago, when the two countries committed to a closer relationship in the form of, for example, joint ventures or equity ownership, subject to governmental licences. Such agreements are reinterpreted today as evidence of the coerced transfer of technology — an act of American duplicity.

In a World Trade Organization case heard last summer, the US made the claim that China’s IP theft violated “public morals” prevailing in US society, while noting that such behaviour “may not offend China’s sense of public morals”. That allegation is both wrong and offensive. IP violations bring about civil, administrative and even criminal penalties in China, as well as in the US. China cherishes a culture of fair competition and respect for innovation. “To steal a book is an elegant offence,” has long been misread as a permissive aphorism peculiar to Chinese culture. But the short story by Lu Xun, if read carefully, has the opposite moral: the scholar is punished for his theft, and cut off by his neighbours.

....

I don’t care what China pattern you love, R128, just fuck off.

...

IP protection is a necessary part of development. When an under-developed country tries to catch up with a developed one, it learns by imitation, by way of reverse engineering. It accumulates professionals and technology, and then starts to invest in research and innovation. When it wants to climb further up the ladder and expand, it may have to step into a technological no man’s land, as the telecoms firm Huawei has in its 5G tech development.

The rise of the US at the turn of the 19th century was essentially a process of rampant IP theft from the UK, including of textile manufacturing tech. Some would argue that the laws governing IP protection then were light, and that the US’s behaviour was thus tolerable.

That is simply not true. Before the American Revolution, England had passed laws to ban the export of textile machinery and tools that might assist in the manufacture of cotton, linen, wool, and silk. Skilled mechanics were forbidden to emigrate upon pain of imprisonment. The US government defied that law, raiding British industrial secrets and wooing knowledgeable British textile managers, as Ron Chernow has described in his biography, Alexander Hamilton. This amounted to state-sanctioned industrial espionage — more evidence of duplicity, given that the US constitution explicitly protected IP.

The story shows how the US has climbed the ladder to tech supremacy only to kick it away now that it has reached the top, just as Britain jealously blocked America’s rise. China’s IP model started from scratch 40 years ago, but its success is no less extraordinary. Former US Treasury secretary Lawrence Summers, once a stern critic of the policy, has said that China’s technological progress comes from its own “terrific entrepreneurs” and “an educational system that’s privileging excellence”, but not from theft.

By prioritising fair competition and innovation, China will only keep enhancing IP protection, including that originally from the US, as its governmental and social governance capabilities improve.

R58 I hope Japan kicks their ass again.

FUCK CHINA!!!

They have a dog meat festival where tens of thousands of dogs are consumed!

Need I say more????

R132, they’re aiming to shut it down. Read about the historical Pennsylvania festival where they had laughing children torture doves (twisting heads off, etc.). It’s the first chapter of Animal Liberation.

From PBS NewsHour. Cute host.

Amazing.

The animal torture and wet markets are revolting to the rest of the world.

R136, I’m with you. But I don’t think hostility is going change things faster than cultural exchange.

Just look at how many millions have died around the world because of America-sponsored and supported wars.

Yes, the US is just as evil as China

r138 would you rather live in China or the US?

The American government is captured by corporations and other business. At least China‘s government has the ability to rein in the nation’s businesses.

R138 should live in Russia.

I’m not R139, but if I knew Mandarin, had Chinese citizenship, and would still be solidly upper-middle class in a first-tier city like Shanghai (I’m in a first-tier American city), I’d rather live in China.

Over the last 50 years, China has slowly been building its economy and investing in parts of the world America ignored (like Africa).

America finally sees the writing on the wall and suddenly we react like we always do when we’re threatened: vilify the economic enemy

Needless escalation.

R141, huh?

Having been born in the US, it’s all I know. I don’t know Chinese.

Yet, I’m educated enough about history to understand what the US has done to the world

Some nice news.

Go to Shanghai and laugh at how NYC is in decline. Shanghai is the city of the 21st century. NYC is of the 20th.

I love NYC but your head will spin when you see how advanced Chinese cities are

“ U.S. tech companies love to suggest that anything that hurts them somehow opens the door to China’s technology dominance. And American politicians sometimes appear to fan fears of Chinese technology for selfish reasons.”

Can I live in Paris

[quote] China has slowly been building its economy and investing in parts of the world America ignored (like Africa).

China probably should have used some of that time and effort to build better relationships with their immediate neighbors. Antagonizing India isn't exactly a winner of a strategy.

Competence.

[quote]Yet, I’m educated enough about history to understand what the US has done to the world.

Nobody thinks the US is perfect, but China is and always has been a totalitarian dictatorship that never even strived to become a democracy. Mao killed more people than even Stalin and Hitler combined. It's one of the worst countries to disregard human rights, freedom of speech, rule of law ... China sits on #153 on the international democracy index, the US slipped to #25 because of Trump, a Russian puppet.

Your're not educated R145, you're brainwashed or a Chinese bot!

[quote] but China is and always has been a totalitarian dictatorship that never even strived to become a democracy

Why does that matter? It reminds me of European professors in Japanese TV tut-tutting Japan for not welcoming immigrants: democracy, like multiculturalsm through immigration, isn’t a a normative state or superior goal all nations strive or should shrive to achieve.

The issue is which country has caused more chaos outside its borders. China definitely has (North Korea), but I think America has caused more destruction outside its borders.

[quote] At least China‘s government has the ability to rein in the nation’s businesses.

Chang, you can stop now.

R154, ad hominem attack. Weak. Please block me.

[quote] China definitely has (North Korea), but I think America has caused more destruction outside its borders.

America is expected to be the world's policeman and yes, it has done things that are indefensible. But China hasn't destroyed as much outside its borders because it hasn't been given the opportunity yet. Just ask their neighbors who they fear most--it's not America.

R155, your comment was ridiculous. Maybe China can rein in their businesses because they are an authoritarian dictatorship?

R157, exactly. And?

Nuance, R156.

The Philliphines, South Korea and even a large section of Indonesia hates China. No surprises there. And the rest of the world continues to hate them. Thanks for the link R159.

[quote] But China hasn't destroyed as much outside its borders because it hasn't been given the opportunity yet.

Not every country is inherently sociopathic, R156.

Neighbors hate those doing better than they are. It’s called envy and resentment. Just look how popular America is in Mexico.

Chinese are gross.

[quote] Not every country is inherently sociopathic

Wow. You think China isn't sociopathic while America is? That is truly bizarre.

I hate both America and China, both evils that can’t be trusted.

Well America must be doing something right because everybody from every third world shitbox is dying to get here.

As an aside, has anyone here visited Lhasa in Tibet region? At which hotels did you stay? I’m looking at the St Regis.

Also, did you take the high-speed train there from the Shanghai metro area? How was it?

TIA.

Lhasa’s airport is expanding right now. Impressive.

oh my god, there are so many dumb cunts in this thread and those who say they would rather live in China obviously haven't even visited USA. The rich Chinese cunts are all leaving...yeah, China is so wonderful that's why people want to leave!

this is a troll thread.

Is this a John/PMBT thread?

[quote] this is a troll thread.

Yes, it really is. There are two people who upvoted that comment "not every country is sociopathic". The sociopathic country being America and the morally "superior" country being China. Ok then...

Some persistent Chinese bots on here. If you'd think Russian bots were a problem, just wait and see what 1.5 billion Chinese can do on western social media. At least 1/3 of Russian hate Putin, Chinese are so brainwashed they buy nationalistic and toxic CCP propaganda hook line and sinker.

China cites ‘malicious slander’ as Houston consulate closes

. . .

The U.S. on Tuesday ordered the consulate closed within 72 hours, alleging that Chinese agents had tried to steal data from facilities in Texas, including the Texas A&M medical system and The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.

rest of story at link

Smart move.

Very interesting.

I don’t see China as a threat but I find this interesting.

It’s ironic when America beats the drums of how terrible communism is yet China has the world’s second largest economy and will soon be #1

R170, I was brought up to believe the US had some moral superiority but the election of Trump proved that to be an utter lie

R166, how can China and the rest of the world install such advances as high speeds trains and stable infrastructure when the US is stuck 100 years behind.

It’s mind boggling what the GOP and the rich have done to the US

China is definitely evil but you have to put blinders on to believe America is some saint. We fought huge wars like Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan because they made people rich.

These Chicom trolls are too much.

1 - Coronavirus developed due to depraved Chinese animal husbandry practices. Shit/mucus from many different species beaten and with weakened immune systems letting viruses evolve rapidly.

2 - China suppressed info about the virus at every opportunity destroying lab data and giving it precious time to spread and infect the world. They used their influence with the WHO to delay declaring it infectious. This was in *January*.

3 - it's not even the first time this has happened this millenium. We had SARS from China, from the wet markets they said they would close down. Did they Chicom troll? Did they?

4 - this won't be the last time we receive a 'gift' from China. The markets are back open and people too stupid to live are still chowing down on disease ridden species. Maybe next time we won't be so lucky to get a virus with *only* a 1 percent death rate.

Your country is a filthy hell-ridden petri dish that packs Uighyr muslims onto trains to send off to camps. China defenders are grotesque soulless people with no light in their eyes.

In order to buy a sim card in China, you have to provide your I.D. and have your face scanned or some fucking BS like that. What a great country!!!

Russia wouldn’t stand for a Chinese annexation of Mongolia R82.

Mongolia actually uses Cyrillic due to Russian influence - not Chinese. Here’s a pic from the capital city Ulaanbaatar.

Also China is about to drown and is creating its own Biblical-level floods to save its larger cities in a last ditch move. It’s wiping out lots of ag production and if their shittily built Three Gorges Dam pops it’s game fucking over.

They have no qualms flooding out and displacing millions of their own citizens in this process. You think we would ever get away with flooding out Dubuque to save Des Moines and St. Louis?

[quote]I was brought up to believe the US had some moral superiority but the election of Trump proved that to be an utter lie

That's what happens when creepy dictatorships like Russia and China get involved, meddling in elections in western countries.

[quote]No two countries that both had McDonald's had fought a war against each other since each got its McDonald's.

Not only do the US and China have many McDonald's, we do trillions of dollars of trade each year. Ergo, we aren't gonna have a cold or hot war anytime soon.

[quote] Mongolia actually uses Cyrillic due to Russian influence - not Chinese

I’m aware of that. Did I say they use Chinese? Nope.

ChInA IS HeADEd fOr DisASteR!!!!

No. These are people with higher IQs than you. Their system is run by committees of engineers. They are not afraid of technology: no one is burning 5G towers or fearful of vaccinations. They are achieving unprecedented control over their population, which is overwhelmingly cooperative.

They are going to reinherit the pole position very soon. You might as well accept the inevitable and make money from it.

A many-times disproved 1990s Tom Friedman reference, R186? Height of hackery.

OP aka hardworking CCP shill is working overtime in this thread.

Block me, delulu/R190.

60+ comments and counting, do they pay you per post, OP = CCP shill?

Ah yes. The same high IQ people that unleashed Coronavirus on the world R188.

Chinese bots are way more of a thing than the Russian bot trope.

Moron, R188. If Chinese have such high IQ’s why are they constantly stealing intellectual property from the West, including medical research?

Those billions worth of weapons and military tech need to be used, how else can you get a new billion dollar contract?

Also, they’re “not fearful of technology” but need to slaughter tigers to devour their penises and poach rhinos to grind up their horns.

Visionary sees what’s what.

Elon

They aren’t scewing around.