Stephen Sondheim & His Partner Have 48 Year Age Difference

Whatever the richer one prefers.

Who's whipping whom?

That’s an old pic. Both have not aged well.

[quote] That’s an old pic. Both have not aged well.

They probably talk about what they've read on Datalounge and Mr. S always asks if Pamela Myers called....

What do they talk about? HIS WILL.

[quote] What could they possibly have in common to talk about over the dinner table?

The same thing a grandfather would talk to his grandson about.

The "good old days."

Six years together- clearly they talk about a lot.

Disgusting

[quote]What could they possibly have in common to talk about over the dinner table?

Whether the pasta was drained or lifted from the pot with tongs.

Yes you are, R9.

What does a grandfather talk about to his grandson?

One of Jeff's best friends is Randy Rainbow so you can imagine their conversation is like DL Broadway gossip thread.

Usually not fucking.

R8 They've been together a lot longer than 6 years. At least 15, and I'm pretty sure longer than that.

Apparently they do a lot of talking based on those massive bags under his eyes. Jesus, grandpa. Let the poor guy sleep every once in a while.

Well that's creepy.

I'll use Calvin Klein and Kevin Baker as an example.

"Honey, can you get my shoes? My back is aching."

I'll use Calvin Klein and Kevin Baker as an example.

"Honey, can you get my shoes? My back is aching."

Sweetie open the door for me, would you?

I'm pretty sure I saw CK and Kevin at the Grove.

Kevin's attentiveness to the older CK was actually sweet.

It was like watching a doting nephew or grandson tending to his older uncle or grandfather.

I'm not being flip. I saw the guy kinda watching out for CK.

It's accepted when old men date younger woman, but of course the gays get ripped to shreds.

When I'm ancient, I'd love to have someone watching out for me; screw the sex -- I just want to be taken care of and I'll pay for it. If I have the money.

[quote]screw the sex

Pics please.

Well if you have the money of a CK there's no problem.

R23 there’s more than one?

Any bets that Michael Feinstein made a "Me & Ira" campaign pitch for sitting next to Steve on the piano bench.

Except I don't know if Michael is up for the S&M scene involved, even as thirsty as he is.

R21, that is a good thought, yet, gorgeous young men are always in it for the money, connections and all the accoutrements of fame. They would never give the old men the time of day without it. It’s all an act. They’re counting the days, eagerly waiting for the old fuck to die. With new found wealth, they’ll find an equally gorgeous young man for “companionship”. That’s a euphemism for “fucking.”

R18- Not Stephen Soundheim but that FUCKIN MUMMIFIED MONKEY Calvin Klein has aged HORRIBLY.

Royalties.

Young people are fun to be around - everything is still exciting and a wonder. If you don't have kids, it's the next best thing to watch.

Plus they're pretty and easy to manipulate.

I get it.

Wasn't Sondheim married to a younger guy before this one?

I met them at a social occasion once. They were both quite fun and easy together. Very polite, and actually interested in other humans, unlike everyone else in show business. Very nice. Sorry to disappoint.

It seems that Sondheim had a long term relationship with another young man but I don't know why that ended.

Sondheim is actually a very, very interesting man to talk to -And he can speak on just about any subject knowledgeably, or with interest in learning. He's also a genius, which makes him sexier. It's been a few years since we talked face-to-face, but I've felt his attraction. I imagine Jeff has to stay on his toes to keep up his end of the conversation. I have absolutely no idea about their sex life (I wouldn't dream of asking) -But I sure hope its wild and crazy! If they are both happy in the relationship, the rest of us should just fuck off. That man has given me so much pleasure through the years I think he deserves all the joy, fun, and happiness he can get.

Hi Jeff at R33

Great that you vist DL

KA-CHING!!!

I put up with Stephen all of last year

And I’m here!

Ha! -I should be so lucky! No, honey. I've just worked with Sondheim. Never had sex with him.

They talk about Caitlyn Jenner and her fabulous attire, star-studded appearajces, and revealing interviews.

I've heard that Jeff is passionately attracted to MUCH older men. It's not an act. I once saw him at the bar at The Townhouse chatting up a guy who liked he was in his late 60s. I don't know if he cheated on Steve with him.

I had dinner with them once. At one point, Steve mentioned Gloria Swanson, and said, "Jeff won't know who that is." Jeff said defensively, "yes, I do," but I got the feeling he isn't nearly the movie fan Steve is. It made me wonder what on earth they talk about.

...looked like...

LOL at Jeff's bio at R4 saying "When I'm off leash....."

Wonder how many people realize he means it literally?

I want to have that when I’m old.

So this child gets the townhouse?

I think it's very sweet, good for them. Love is love.

Jeff likes em old and rich. His ex was my sugar daddy for a bit. Jeff dumped him for Sondheim.

I think it’s more about what happens UNDER the dinner table that’s key, OP .

What is it with these creeps? Why don't they just adopt like I did and that way, no one is the wiser.

'I think it's very sweet, good for them. Love is love.'

You're so young.

[quote] Sondheim is actually a very, very interesting man to talk to -And he can speak on just about any subject knowledgeably, or with interest in learning.

Which makes it even sadder that he's with someone 48 years younger.

Why can't gay men like this, just find someone their own age? Having a partner so much younger just makes them look fucking ridiculous.

I'm in my 30's and I find Sondheim very sexy. All his interviews are fascinating and he does seem like someone who'd be great to talk to. There's something very warm and approachable about him. He's kinda like that really cool professor from college.

R50 have you seen pictures of him lately? Sexy? No way! His money is $exy!!

And his partner is still 86 years old ....

Who wouldn't want to be with a genius? I get it. Age doesn't matter when you're with an icon. 6 years means it's the real deal. I love older men. So maybe it's my own bias. But if they're both happy? Eh.

r49 Why do you care so much? If they're happy...

Sondheim is so old that even with a 48-year age difference, Jeff is still over 40.

[quote] Sondheim explained to biographer Secrest that he was "what they call an institutionalized child, meaning one who has no contact with any kind of family. You're in, though it's luxurious, you're in an environment that supplies you with everything but human contact. No brothers and sisters, no parents, and yet plenty to eat, and friends to play with and a warm bed, you know?"

[quote] Sondheim detested his mother, who was said to be psychologically abusive and projected her anger from her failed marriage on her son: "When my father left her, she substituted me for him. And she used me the way she used him, to come on to and to berate, beat up on, you see. What she did for five years was treat me like dirt, but come on to me at the same time." She once wrote him a letter saying that the "only regret [she] ever had was giving him birth".

Yikes!

I hope both are happy and healthy. I want only for Mr. Sondheim to be happy and feel loved.

"Anyone can whistle, " that's what they say, "easy." "Anyone can whistle, any old day, easy." It's all so simple. Relax, let go, let fly. So someone tell me, why can't I? I can dance a tango, I can read Greek, easy. I can slay a dragon, any old week: easy. What's hard is simple. What's natural comes hard. Maybe you could show me: How to let go, Lower my guard, Learn to be free. Maybe if you whistle, Whistle for me.

[quote]Why can't gay men like this, just find someone their own age? Having a partner so much younger just makes them look fucking ridiculous.

For one thing, most gay men Sondheim's age are dead.

I'm sure that after that horror show of a childhood, Sondheim enjoys being in control. He's older and more experienced, so he can make little needling remarks about all the things Jeff doesn't know. He's rich, so he's financially in control. Jeff is in a subservient position and can be dumped at any time, and that's the way Sondheim likes it.

I disagree, [R59]. Sondheim has not been involved in many relationships. Sure, he has played around -But he says he had never experienced actual love until fairly recently. Six years with Jeff is significant -He has strong feelings for him, or he wouldn't keep him around. If he just wanted a toy, a plaything, he could have a fresh one whenever he wanted. He wants this man in his life. If both men are happy, then the world should leave them alone and not try to stir up trouble.

Grandaddy issues.

R21, you're kidding right? Just because it's very common for straight men to date women who could be their daughter (or younger) doesn't mean we don't make fun of them too. Dennis Quaid is engaged (because a 4th marriage is always THE ONE) to a woman younger than his son. He's a joke.

'Sondheim is so old that even with a 48-year age difference, Jeff is still over 40.'

I hope Jeff has everything in writing. Sondheim can still dump him for a newer model. Wouldn't that be a kick in the head?

"She once wrote him a letter saying that the "only regret [she] ever had was giving him birth".

I regret it too.

Ah -Dick Rodgers, the man of infinite talent and limited soul!

And Oscar was a limited talent! Ha!.

But infinite soul!

Infinite soul and a token will get you a ride on the subway!

I always thought that Sondheim's "limited talent and infinite soul" was a nasty crack to make about his mentor Oscar. Really? The man who wrote the book and lyrics to Show Boat, Oklahoma, and Carousel? Has Sondheim written any one work that equals any of those three?

Did Sondheim say Hammerstein had "limited talent and infinite soul"?

How rude! Why?

I used to know the ex-Mrs. Sondheim. They were together for quite a while and I think are still friendly.

R70, he was making a comment about Rodgers and Hammerstein. He said that Rodgers was a man of infinite talent and limited soul, and Hammerstein was a man of limited talent and infinite soul. I get that Sondheim was trying to be clever and contrast the two men, but I still can't believe he was that cruel to Oscar.

Only another mother could truly understand.

Sondheim has a real problem with Oscar's lyrics. For some reason especially with 'When the sky is a bright canary yellow.' Sondheim doesn't seem to get that Hammerstein had a way of connecting with people instinctively without every work appearing like a doctoral theses he spent an inordinate amount of time sweating over. And in the tradition of Broadway greats until Sondheim(and yes I consider him a great, the last one) he had huge smash hits which Sondheim never had.

thesis

He didn't really fall in love until the 80's or maybe it was the 90's. It was around the time he wrote Passion I think. He mentioned that he never would have written that if he'd never known what love was. So, I guess we have love to thank for that godawful show.

Sondheim seems like a late bloomer to me. While he was obviously talented from the start, as a person, he was stunted in many ways (probably due to his insane mother).

There's no understanding of love on view in Passion. Only obsession and stalking.

That's what I always find funny about him saying that Passion was inspired by him falling in love for the first time. I wouldn't admit to that since it's about a crazy woman who stalks some poor dude and tries to force him to love her.

I don't know where that quote might come from. If that is a real quote, it's definitely the sauciest one you could find. I would point people towards his long-ish and more nuanced discussion of Hammerstein in the Finishing the Hat lyric book. Too bad the thing is $100 used....

Well I'm glad I bought it immediately when it came out.

That quote I believe was in a Newsweek cover story on Sondheim in '73. Irving Berlin was so incensed he wrote a letter to the editor and subsequently Rodgers called Sondheim a 'monster. This is all a bit hazy to me now so please I welcome your corrections.

I had not refreshed the page when I wrote my comment! I had not seen your post clarifying the quote, R80. I still can't place it, but that sounds perfectly reasonable.

The print run of Finishing the Hat must have been really small. The second book is cheap, but the first one is hard to find.

Here's some context for that quote:

"Sondheim referred to Richard Rodgers, with whom he wrote Do I Hear a Waltz?, as 'a man of infinite talent –and limited soul.' In 1998, Sondheim said that the often repeated quote about his views on Rodgers's and Hammerstein's respective talents and souls was in response to a reporter's asking, 'Why do you think Rodgers and Hammerstein make a good team?'"

-from Sondheim and Lloyd-Webber: The New Musical by Stephen Citron

"No, Sondheim is under no illusions. He's thinks Oscar Hammerstein saved his life. And, you know, he once said that Oscar was a man of limited talent and infinite soul. And Richard Rodgers was a man of infinite talent and limited soul. So he's under no illusions about Hammerstein's shortcomings as a lyricist and his fondness for bird and fauna and flora and stars and astrological metaphors. There's an awful lot of that kind of overripe, romantic, 1920s kind of language in Hammerstein's lyrics. But at the end of the day, what Sondheim comes down in favor of is the, as he says, monumentality of the lyrics, not just the sentimentality. And the thing that is remarkable about Hammerstein's lyrics - in fact, that makes him vulnerable to criticism - is that his lyrics are so naked. They often make very sparing use of rhyme. They're not intricate, you know, triple internal rhymes the way Cole Porter's or Larry Hart's might be. But I also think it's a canard that Hammerstein can't write funny songs. I think there's no funnier song then i'm just a gal who cain't say no or with me, it's all er nothin' from "Oklahoma." Those lines are wonderful."

-Todd Purdum, author of Something Wonderful, in an interview with Terry Gross on NPR

Sondheim has repeatedly made a distinction between talent and craftsmanship. He has repeatedly said that Hammerstein's lyrics are extremely polished and well-crafted.

'Extremely polished and well- crafted.' Oy. Talk about condescending and damning with faint praise.

How sharper than a serpent's tooth...

Extremely polished and well-crafted are high praise in my book!

“A little less thinking, a little more feeling,” Steve.

Yes, the man has very strong opinions -But he at least tends to hold everyone, himself included, to the same standards. People love to quote negative stuff, but Sondheim has heaped praise upon a lot of people's work. Check out his list of "Songs I Wish I Had Written" below:

Interestingly, Richard Rodgers invested in Anyone Can Whistle. Of course, he was richer than God so I’m sure that was no financial strain for him. Which reminds me of a funny story. Apparently in the 1940s or 50s a bunch of songwriters were hanging out in one of their apartments with a view of the East River. Someone saw a barge going up the river, and one of the songwriters said something like “Oh look, they’re delivering this week’s royalty payments to Richard Rodgers.”

R86, yes that list is nice. But it’s SO Sondheim to call it “SONGS I WISH I'D WRITTEN (AT LEAST IN PART).” Of course he had to qualify his praise, because God forbid he admire a lyric that Larry Hart wrote!

I love Hart's lyrics. Yes they are occasionally awkward but the same can be said of Sondheim. And how can you deny the talent of a man who wrote the lyrics of 'To Keep My Love Alive?'

Do Sondheim and his partner have sex?

Why hasn’t the partner ever suggested that Sondheim fix his droopy eyelid??

Would you suck off sondheim?

I bet someone like Sondheim would have a solicitor draw up a four page long Pre-nup detailing the mutual requirements such as sucking off the senior partner.

R26, oh, I know.

I also happen to think younger women do that with older men; and maybe even woman who aren't all that much younger than the guys they're with do it for money.

And men do it for money if the woman is rich.

If I had the money, and a guy could convince me in the moment that he cares -- on whatever level for whatever reason -- I'd pay him.

A horrible existence for sure, but....so's being alone.

48 yrs difference? His partner looks good for being in his fifties.

I hear they argue a lot about whose turn it is to clean the dungeon.

I wish them much happiness. I think that if you have two people who really LIKE each other, then there's a lot to talk about and share. And there are certainly many things they can learn from each other. I don't understand where age (or color or social status or anything else) have anything to do with how two people relate to each other. I think it has more to do with mutual respect and equality. Anyone who can't understand this, well...

R19

There isn't enough money (or Viagra) in world that could get me though sex with Calvin Klein. Enough of what is seen in that picture was bad enough, imagine him naked?

As Marilyn Monroe says in Some Like It Hot "no, it's too icky..."

They talk about money of course.

As someone who will likely be entrusted with the estate of Stephen Sondheim's works Jeff Romley is probably watching, listening and learning.

Is Sondheim very rich or just rich ?

There was a very interesting documentary out this past winter about Oliver Sacks (who wrote Awakenings and the Man who mistook his wife for a hat). He was a neuropsychologist who went without sex from age 40 until his mid 70s when he took up with a much younger photographer, Bill Hayes, (like 30 years younger) who lived in his building, and by all accounts they had a loving relationship, until his death at age 82. It's a strange phenomenon, but apparently it does exist.

R101

Every pot has a lid.....

[quote] As Marilyn Monroe says in Some Like It Hot "no, it's too icky..."

I just watched Some Like It Hot last week. It’s brilliant as ever and Jack Lemmon gives one of the funniest screen performances ever. I don’t recall that Monroe line, though. When does she say that?

R103 It's actually a line in The Seven Year Itch.

"Do you use a bow or do you pluck it?"

"Usually I just slap it!"

Joe & Jack in Some Like It Hot......nothing to do with Stephen Sondheim, but it is funny....isn't it?

That is the question, R100. I bet Sondheim is about the same as where he started: upper middle class.

You are, R9.

R106

Oh I dunno...

Depending upon which sources you believe Stephen Sondheim has a net worth of around $20 million.

The guy is almost 100, has been at his craft since early or middle twenties, and over years has amassed a rock solid book.

Having come from a wealthy background am sure Mr. Sondheim understands how to make money work for you (investing and saving), and not spending every red cent earned (living on interest, never the capital).

SS has that estate in Roxbury, Conn, joining Dustin Hoffman, Daniel Day-Lewis, Denis Leary among others, which must be worth a pretty penny.

I'm not saying he doesnt have great real estate. Just saying, he came from a family that lived well in Manhattan and also in country houses, just like he does now. He does well, but has never made Phantom or Hamilton money.

He has family money, but still Webber is (according to these completely unvetted web sites) worth a billion.

Honestly, anyone who bought a townhouse in Manhattan in 1963 or whenever he bought is going to be worth several millions just for that.

Cannot compare Andrew Lloyd Webber and Stephen Sondheim. The former is a businessman and or impresario if you will, with fingers in dozens of various pies.

Their output is different as well; with much of ALW's work grand commercial things like CATS, Starlight Express, and Sunset Boulevard.

Sondheim said he was able to buy his townhouse with his A Funny Thing money.

I wonder how much money he's lost and is still losing on WSS for not getting full lyricist royalties.

A friend who knew John Kander said Kander was able to buy his Hampton's home with his Cabaret film money.

Well, R112, how about comparing him with Lin-Manuel Miranda at $80m?

Lin-Manuel Miranda is from a more modern vintage, and thus able (has) benefited from vast sums of money shushing around entertainment world today.

SS is ancient, while ALW is old; both have been at their craft for decades before Lin-Manuel Miranda was even born.

Remember net worth is about assets; eighty million USD by no means is small change; but in a world where apartments in NYC are selling for $58 million it puts things into perspective.

So Webber is too rich and Miranda is too poor. Whatever.

Those net worth sites are, ironically, worthless unless the information is publicly available. For example, ALW's money comes via Really Useful, so they have a guide as to how he's doing financially. And that's how they get those figures. Likewise for LMM, Sondheim, etc, they'll take publicly available info like grosses. But they have no idea what these people do with their money privately. They could've invested really well or pissed it all up the wall - there's really no way to know.

Contemporaries then? Hal Prince came up with the concepts most of the time, and he had more cash too. Maybe we can just agree that SS was way rich compared to Boris Aronson.

I've hung out with Jeff a few times. He's very nice. Very smart, a very accomplished athlete and as I understand it he's always had a thing for older guys.

But I guess Hal was tainted with Webber money. This is getting complicated....

They've also been together for a LONG time. Not 6 years.

Guess SS has left it far too late, but wonder in future will his husband (then maybe widower) have children. It might be nice to have someone to pass that torch to when time comes in terms of a direct heir to preserve legacy, not to mention benefit from a large accumulation of property.

So his royalties will pass on to someone when he dies ?

R123

Have no way of knowing arrangements of Stephen Sondheim's personal affairs, but he is legally married and in NYS spouses cop the lot unless other arrangements have been made.

One of the great benefits of legal SSM is that gays no longer need draw up complicated and extensive legal devices so their assets/estate transfer to their partner upon death. Legal marriage takes care of everything. Only reason to create said devices or whatever likely have more to do with taxation and perhaps of course if someone wants to ensure certain things are done.

Then again SS was rather old when he married, so there may have been pre-nuptial agreement and or he made plans long before marriage.

Marilyn Monroe's estate is still racking in royalties, this over fifty years after her death.

Marilyn Monroe did leave a will (for all the good it did), but Prince didn't and his estate is still not settled due to squabbling by potential heirs.

Thing to remember is humans die; estates can go on eternally, long as there are assets to be disbursed, received, and or controlled.

When it comes to famous or creative persons it isn't just what they leave at death, but future of their body of work. Sondheim's book of work will be around long after himself, spouse and any of us posting on this board are long gone.

Both Sondheim and Harvey Fierstein are five star celebrity gays who do not have media perfect, squeaky clean, camera ready significant others. Actually as far as I know, Harvey is single. They're both fine with me to the point of me finding it refreshing.

And people complain about Froy and Richard...

The Calvin Klein thing - does he find all his boyfriends on PornHub? What’s the deal, literally? Does that hot guy have to fuck CK or does he just lie back and let CK blow him and sit on CK’s face?

They've been together for a long time, probably close to 20 years. Jeff has independent income, but he'll be taken care of. SS is very wealthy and will likely be bringing in money for decades.

I just read (some gossip) that R&H stole the idea for THE KING AND I from Sondheim. Possibly more than just the idea. If true, tough copyright lesson learned.

So they stole the idea to adapt a best-selling novel that had been made into a popular film from a 20 year old kid?

Didn't Gertrude Lawrence bring the project to R&H?

Sondheim mentioned that he was working on an adaptation. No copyright.

Did Stephen adopt him?

Gertrude Lawrence and her agent brought the project to R&H. It seems pretty ludicrous to think that R&H “stole” the idea from Sondheim.

When Sondheim was three years old, he had a toy boat he played with in the bathtub. Hammerstein saw it and wrote Show Boat. Total rip-off!

I always like when people on DL reveal bombshells like this King and I rip off. This factoid does not appear in any biography nor in any internet accessible source (like the Sondheim Review), so I would never know it if someone here did not say it.

The idea that they ripped off a kid who was adapting the King and I, is galling.

Rule No. 1 of DL, R138: Don't believe everything your read on DL.

. . . everything you read . . . ^^

I read it was Gertrude Lawrence who stole the idea for King and I from Sondheim.

[quote]One of Jeff's best friends is Randy Rainbow

Every sentence at dinner much start with the word "Geeeeeeerl"

Another successful gay man who has to buy a "partner".

CALM DOWN. IT'S A RUMOR!_via_broadway.com_Get Mr. Sondheim to tell you "the 'King and I' story" someday if you ever run into him at a party. For all I know, it's a bunch of ****, but it made me more concerned about copyright than I was before I heard it. Maybe it's why he doesn't mention Hammerstein...he's holding a grudge....Okay, well you asked for the story. I'm not sure if I buy it myself, or if he was just making it up to prove a point. The gist of it is, in his days working under Hammerstein's mentoring, he wrote a show based on the story of Anna Leonowens and her experiences with the Royal Family of Siam. Said subject matter (and some of his material) apparently became what we know as "Rodgers and Hammerstein's 'The King and I'," and from said experience he learned not to take copyright lightly, and to do it at every stage of a project, etc.

Sondheim also claims that the original idea for "The Black Crook" was stolen from him.

R144, that makes no sense given the reverence, gratitude and affection with which Sondheim has always spoken of Hammerstein.

You do not praise the generosity and kindness of someone who ripped you off.

That's not all! I heard Oscar stole the idea of Flower Drum Song from Henry David Hwang. Years later, Hwang got even by rewriting it into a big flop. Take that, Hammerstein!

R/H had written DOLLS & GUYS but Frank Loesser got his version produced just before they got to the copyright office....

It was Rodgers and Hammerstein's idea to turn Pygmalion into a musical but Lerner and Loewe stole it.

R146 No you declare the individual was a man of let's just say 'limited talent.'

According to Rodgers' biography, he and Hammerstein first heard of the property when the two Dorothys (Dorothy Rodgers and Dorothy Hammerstein, BFFs) saw the film version of Anna and The King of Siam with Rex Harrison and Irine Dunne at a matinee and both raved to their husbands what a wonderful musical it would make. So they were very open to the project when Gertrude Laurence's agent brought it to them. The novel, a highly fictionalized version of the diaries of Anna Leonowens , was a best seller in the 1940s and the film version mentioned above was a big hit. It was hardly an unknown property. Everybody was considering it. The thought that Sondheim was considering it and R&H stole it from him is silly.

Most of the changes from the novel to the 1940s film are included in the R&H stage version.

R150, he did not say that about Hammerstein.

He said that about Rodgers.

This thread is getting bit stale.

Has anyone got any newly-released information on how 'West Side Story' was cooked up by twelve clever, tempestuous Hebraic men —most of whom were gay or closeted— while 'Candide' had nineteen.

Sondheim has said many times that the project he worked on while Hammerstein was mentoring was a musical version of the Mary Poppins stories by P.L. Travers, and that he was unable to acquire rights. (See Saving Mr. Banks for more info on that topic...)

Rodgers and Hammerstein did, reportedly, have a go at musicalizing Pygmalion for Mary Martin, but gave it up as an impossible task. It is worth noting that when Lerner and Loewe played some of their songs for the show to Ms. Martin she is quoted as saying, "Those poor boys have lost their talent."

Sorry, "Rodgers' autobiography," not "Rodgers' biography." And Irene Dunne, not Irine Dunn, of course. She had a wonderful singing voice, as evidenced in her early film musicals and later played Mrs. Anna in the R&H stage version musical in regional and summer stock productions to wonderful reviews.

[quote]And Irene Dunne, not Irine Dunn, of course. She had a wonderful singing voice, as evidenced in her early film musicals

The most notable of which was the 1936 version of "Show Boat," directed by James Whale, in which Dunne played Magnolia, with Helen Morgan as Julie, Paul Robeson as Joe and Hattie McDaniel as Queenie. It's far superior to the glossy 1951 MGM color remake.

Bye thread.

Off topic, but R&H first offered the role of The King to Rex Harrison, who had starred om the film, but he turned them down flat. They then offered the role to Alfred Drake, who also declined. But he did take on the role for several months during the show's third year when Yul Brynner took an extended vacation.

Yul Brynner had costarred with Mary Martin in Lute Song and it was on her recommendation that R&H allowed him to audition for The King. He auditioned sitting cross legged on stage singing folk songs accompanying himself on a ukulele. R&H were intrigued and eventuality cast him. It was costume designer Irene Sharaff who recommended to Brynner during previews that he completely shave his head bald. There are photos of him out there playing the part with side hair.

Below, Alfred Drake as The King. He refused to go bald. The photo I wanted to post no longer shows up on google image results.

^ The photo of Drake as The King I wanted to post shows him bare chested. Hot body. Lucky Patricia Morrison, Lawrence's ultimate replacement, to play opposite him and Brynner all that time.

Irene Dunne understudied Norma Terris as Magnolia in the original 1927 production of Show Boat, led the first national tour, and then played Magnolia in the 1932 Broadway revival with most of the original cast plus Paul Robeson in the part which had been written for him. She then went to Hollywood and had much success, so she was a natural pick to star in the 1936 film. Hattie McDaniel had played Queenie in a successful 1933 or 1934 LA stage production of Show Boat.

Useless off tropic trivia. Sorry.

[quote]Rodgers and Hammerstein did, reportedly, have a go at musicalizing Pygmalion for Mary Martin, but gave it up as an impossible task. It is worth noting that when Lerner and Loewe played some of their songs for the show to Ms. Martin she is quoted as saying, "Those poor boys have lost their talent."

Sondheim, in his book "Finishing the Hat," trashes the lyrics, as was his wont, but says that "My Fair Lady" was his favorite evening of theater ever.

[quote]Irene Dunne understudied Norma Terris as Magnolia in the original 1927 production of Show Boat, led the first national tour, and then played Magnolia in the 1932 Broadway revival with most of the original cast plus Paul Robeson in the part which had been written for him. She then went to Hollywood and had much success, so she was a natural pick to star in the 1936 film.

I had the Criterion laserdisc of 1936's Show Boat. I was surprised to see Irene in blackface, popping her eyes and mugging, while singing "Gallivanting Around" -- during the "oleo."

I kind of enjoyed it.

OMG! It's on YouTube:

OMG! It's on YouTube:

Except, r154, from what I understand, L&L played Mary and her husband a few MFL songs that were not among those that became huge hits, probably because they hadn't written them yet. So Mary's reluctance in that case was understandable.

If your going to show Dunne's most embarrassing moment from Show Boat, let's see the film at its best.

Outtakes:

What's truly appalling about that performance is that if you look out into the (segregated, true to history) audience, the upper deck was full of black people who had to watch this white performer in a movie mock black people, popping her eyes in blackface, as she sang about black women being stupid sluts.

There's no excuse for blackface today, but there's also no excuse for rewriting history. Blackface was pretty widely accepted until the 1950s, maybe the 1960s. I detest this PC/SJW attitude that anything from the past that causes offense today must be wiped out. Kate Smith is demonized because she sang a song in 1931 about "darkies." So did the Marx Brothers. Are they next? And to tie this into Sondheim, some have claimed that Forum is unplayable today because it's sexist. That is lunacy to me. Yes, Forum is sexist. So are several Shakespeare plays. Is he next to be canceled?

R170 You are the one re-writing history. Blackface was NOT widely accepted in the '50s and '60s.

Even when it was done in Show Boat or by Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney it was already dated and awkward.

R171 commercial film producers would not have included such a huge amount of blackface in their films, if it did not have widespread acceptance.

Right from the start in the 19th century, there was always criticism of blackface. But most white people accepted it.

And in Britain it was acceptable up until the 70s.

Britain had a very different approach to blackface.

I remember as a kid blackface being used in advertising (marmalade specifically) long after it would have been done in America.

Mary Martin was one to talk about someone losing their talent......of course, how can you lose something you never had?

R174 is Ethel Merman

R174, I hope you're joking. She won acclaim for her performances in One Touch of Venus, South Pacific, Peter Pan, The Sound of Music, I Do I Do, and Hello Dolly! She won the Tony for her Sound of Music performance over Merman in Gypsy. Maybe you don't care for her, but you can hardly say she lacked talent.

Bitch!

Read John Gielgud's letters. The section where he talks about Martin in Sound of Music is VERY funny.

Since [R178] couldn't be bothered. The bitch...

"28 September, New York To Paul Anstee

The Mary Martin/Rogers and Hammerstein run-through was ghastly. I thought Ivor’s ghost would come down on a wire to bless it. Cute and appallingly sentimental by turns – seven children, singing nuns, and M. looked as old as God and was frisking around as if she was 17. Hideous men, no dancing or chorus and an endless boring plot."

Says the director of Irene!

No real surprises that Sir John was a proto-datalounger par excellence, but fun to have it confirmed!

Dennis Quaid is not a joke, r62, except maybe to you. But you're an idiot.

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