The film "Cleopatra" starring La Liz was released 57 years ago this month.

When the movie went into Production #2 Elizabeth Taylor demanded and got another million dollars to start the movie again although she had already been payed a million dollars in her contract. She had brass balls and bragged unabashedly about it.

Liz knew that movie stars had a relatively short shelf life to rake in the big bucks. Good for her for taking advantage of it and trying to get all the money she could. Lots of stars weren't that clever.

Roddy McDowell agreed to play a hard as nails Army Ranger in The Longest Day because he was so bored just sitting around waiting for Dick and Liz agree to film.

I'm surprised it hasn't been "cancelled" yet. Especially since I've met a lot of "black power" types who fully believe that Cleopatra was black, even though she was from an incestuous Greek bloodline ruling a North African kingdom. Would she have looked like Liz Taylor? Probably not. But she also wouldn't have looked like Octavia Spencer.

r4 it's another case of what people want to believe, in spite of historical fact.

According to sculptures made at the time, this is what she would have looked like. I...sort of see resemblance lol?

Cleopatra was no beauty, she was rather homely according to the historical record.

I like the movie...after all, it is only a movie

Not only was Cleopatra NOT Black, neither were the Egyptians. They were and are North Africans, who look like other middel eastern and north africans. Their own hierogphyics depict themselves as much lighter and different from the Nubians who were from the South and more like what we think of today as "Black".

But why let actual history or truth get in the way?

R9 I know that, but I've come to the conclusion that history education in the Western world has failed us.

Let's just split the difference and have Rachel Dolezal play her.

Marilyn Monroe's demise was related to the film "Cleopatra". Monroe had started the movie "Something's Got To Give" but 20th Century Fox was concerned about her unprofessionalism and rarely showing up on the set to film. With "Cleopatra" costing the studio so much money they decided to fire Monroe and scrap her movie. Monroe was upset that Elizabeth Taylor, responsible for many of the problems on "Cleopatra", was given a second chance but not her. Monroe didn't understanding that Taylor was tough and resilient and was and was able to stand up to the big shots while Monroe was too fragile and beset with a myriad of personal problems. She died of an apparent accidental drug overdose a year before "Cleopatra" was released. Liz very nicely survived the jungle of Hollywood while Monroe eventually went down in flames.

Didn't Monroe appear naked in that one movie in that pool scene (and look incredible btw) to beat Liz at her own game and "knock her off those magazine covers" or something like that?

Mankiewicz was ridiculously loquacious.

All his movies were stuffed with talk talk talk. We know most of the story by looking at it. We don't need Liz's fishwife-caterwauling and Dick's sub-Shakespearean vituperizing.

Poor Pamela Brown got a good billing in the credits but her time on screen was cut down to half a minute.

R14, that's exactly why I don't get why All about Eve is so loved. Yes, the dialogue is great and so is Bette Davis but if it was made into a play, it would have lost nothing. It's not like there's anything visually interesting in the movie (except the mirror scene).

I highly recommend the documentary “Cleopatra: The Film That Changed Hollywood” for anyone who hasn’t seen it. It’s half the length of Cleopatra and 400 times more interesting.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[quote] (both married to other spouses)

As opposed to which type of spouses?

Although the bloated, critically bashed Cleopatra was surprisingly the highest grossing film of 1963 it actually lost money due to massive production and marketing costs. It wasn't until it was sold to TV for broadcasting rights at a record high price that it was able to recoup its losses.

R15 'All about Eve' has a great first scene. But then the plot meanders off with too many characters, constant talk and an exhausted ending.

'A Letter to 3 Wives' has got some of 'All about Eve's' waspy wit but Mankiewicz adds in too many characters and constant talk. He had originally planned it as 'A Letter to 5 Wives' but that would have meant a 3 hour movie.

Liz and Mankiewicz made the successful 'Suddenly Last Summer' which had a strong plot and was originally written as a one-act play. Mankiewicz planned 'Cleopatra' as TWO talk-filled epic-movies. Mankiewicz was sufficiently arrogant to think HIS dialogue could outdo George Bernard Shaw AND William Shakespeare.

He then went on to do 'Volpone' which was a constipated, studio-bound disaster which wasted the talents of Rex Harrison, Maggie Smith (and Susan Hayward) and ended his career.

Disagree about All About Eve. That is a brilliant film from start to finish.

Crappy movie.

R20

[quote] He then went on to do 'Volpone' which was a constipated, studio-bound disaster which wasted the talents of Rex Harrison, Maggie Smith (and Susan Hayward)

Mankiewicz's film was called "The Honey Pot".

Vivien Leigh was a better Cleopatra, but Taylor’s was the better film.

Vivien Leigh was a prettier Cleopatra.

But unfortunately that film doesn't work because Bernard Shaw was an English socialist-polemicist and none of his jokes make any sense to late-20th century Non-english people.

Mankiewicz removed Shaw's jokes but replaced them with his own overblown loquacity.

In one of the bios on Dame Liz that I've read, Tom Mankiewicz was interviewed about his time being a young production assistant on his father's 'Cleopatra'. Once in the makeup trailer, Liz asked him to refill her water glass. He began walking to the faucet, and she steered him towards a bottle of Smirnoff. It was 8AM!

r26 lots of actors and actresses drank on set back in those days. It was pretty common.

R9 How exactly weren't Ancient Egyptians black? Ethiopians also didn't consider themselves black before colonialism. Of course Ethiopians/ Somalians/ Eritrean/Darfur and the people of Chad weren't as "dark" as Nubians/Kushites (Sudanease) or other sub-saharan Africans . But everyone still consideres these people as black people. The population of Ancient Egypt and North Africa are obviously not the same as the population that's there now, the same can be said about Greece.

The ancient Egyptians were mainly the same as they are now as are the Greeks. As a poster up thread noted you can look at their hieroglyphics to see they were different than the sub-Saharan Africans of Nubia. The idea that the ancient inhabitants of these nations were different racially from the modern ones is a myth. No different than the idiots who try and claim that modern day Jews are not from the same bloodlines as the ancient ones.

Martin Landau had a pretty nice role as Marc Antony's friend General Rufio but most of his scenes were cut. I wish sometime they might be found again.

The film was butchered because of its original length, and the missing footage and scenes apparently would add to the original concept and intentions for it. That's one reason why it seems to stitched together at times and flows peculiarly. There was an attempt to start adding footage years ago, but I haven't heard anything about the status of the work.

Love the movie as a camp fest and one of the High Sixties moments in set design, costuming, and celebrity.

My parents attended the Boston premiere of "Cleopatra", complete with a champagne reception. I still have the perfumed Playbill they brought home.

Roddy McDowell got screwed out of a likely Oscar nomination for this as well, because he was erroneously submitted as a Lead Actor.

R12, Marilyn was incensed that her very studio, 20th Century Fox, had hired Elizabeth to do "Cleopatra" at over $1 million, while she was getting paid $100,000 a picture based on a contractual agreement from the mid-50s. $100,000 a picture was a lot back then, but Marilyn made that studio millions and felt she deserved a more equitable salary. She was also not pleased that Fox was pressuring her to complete "Something's Got to Give" so that they could rush it into theaters and turn a sizeable profit that could help bankroll the skyrocketing financial mess of "Cleopatra." So MM's numerous absences and sick days may have been intentional as it forced Fox's hand and she was able to renegotiate a million dollar contract with them and was hired back. Unfortunately, she died several days later.

"Cleopatra" is overly long and tedious. I don't think I've ever sat through the entire picture without dozing off at several points in the film. And I'm sorry, but I'm just not a fan of Miss Taylor's shrill and whiny voice and glossy MGM acting. With Burton and Harrison orating in perfect diction, you're lulled into thinking you're watching Shakespeare, but then she comes on and immediately brings it back down to standard Sword-and-Sandal fare.

I like the film, have the DVD. it's a movie to look at rather than watch, if you know what I mean. And as said above it is pretty stagy, with some pretty stages- the sets, costumes and colour design are great but there are far too few exterior scenes. Cleo's entry into Rome being the most famous. Some critic described the design of the film as ancient Rome via Las Vegas. Liz's acting is good but she was horrified at the premier when at last she saw the final cut. A lot of her scenes were cut she was so distressed she went to the Ladies room to throw up. Cleo's death scene is great, beautifully shot and acted.

R9 yay darfur! Yay cleopatra!

Mankiewicz was taking amphetamine shots (I realize, also not uncommon for the times), so he could work 21-hour days. But, of course, that impaired his judgment in regards to writing, filming, set-building, etc. I'm surprised Fox let him stay on, but perhaps they felt they had no choice. He was the second director, in fact, after Rouben Mamoulian was let go due to the disastrous, initial filming in England.

[quote] [R9] How exactly weren't Ancient Egyptians black?

Because they didn’t look it. Have you ever been to Egypt? Have you ever studied hieroglyphics? There is actual documentation

it certainly was an overblown movie

Cleopatra's death scene with 2 handmaidens after being bitten by an asp.

The asp/snake death is a myth. Cleopatra was an expert on poison and she and her handmaidens all drank poison and died a relatively quick death.

[quote]that's exactly why I don't get why All about Eve is so loved. Yes, the dialogue is great and so is Bette Davis

Just a guess, but maybe it's so loved because the dialogue is brilliantly entertaining and Bette Davis is fabulous in it?

There's a more recent supposition that victorious Octavian simply had her killed, the same way he’d murdered Caesarion, her son by Caesar. He then concocted the propaganda about her regal suicide.

After that, she became the subject of poetic fable. Previously referred to as a “fatale monstrum,” she was now a noble loser. Propertius, referring to her supposed suicide, wrote, “Non humilius mulier est.” “No base-born woman she.”

And it’s the myth that has persisted.

When 20th Century Fox turned around and sued the Burtons, in 1965, for $50 million in damages, it was revealed that under the terms of Taylor's contract, she was guaranteed a salary of $750,000 against 10 per cent of the gross receipts. Fox claimed that she had received in excess of $20 million.

[quote] Just a guess, but maybe it's so loved because the dialogue is brilliantly entertaining and Bette Davis is fabulous in it?

I understand that. But I would argue it is not a great movie. If it was turned into a stage play, it would have lost nothing. Sunset Boulevard is the superior film. The dialogue is excellent, the performances are even better and visually it is a FAR more interesting film. And Wilder is a far better director.

[quote]The film was butchered because of its original length, and the missing footage and scenes apparently would add to the original concept and intentions for it.

You can kind of tell how it was sliced and diced and spliced based on how fat Liz looked in a particular scene. There are scenes (such as the Battle of Actium) where you can tell that Miss Girl had been hitting the Chasen's chili hard.

While 20th Century Fox was dealing with the prima donna antics of Taylor and Burton and Monroe, over at MGM, the studio bosses were losing their shit over the irratic behavior of Marlon Brando on the set of "Mutiny on the Bounty." His record breaking $1.25 million salary topped Taylor's and like Taylor, his overindulgences and rapid weight gain led to costly wardrobe adjustments, and his prima donna demands let to costly delays and a soaring budget, topping off at close to $20 million, twice the original $10 million budgeted.

Both Brando and Taylor were taken to task in the press, and the train-wreck spectacle of these two productions brought down the mystique and glamour of the old studio star system, exposing instead the crass and decadent Hollywood that was and would continue to be.

^ Liz was bearable in 'Cleopatra' but Brando was ludicrous in 'Bounty'.

His stupidity meant Sir Carol Reed was sacked and the thing turned into a good-looking mess.

I only watched it to see the asp.

I thought Burton looked like a sodden alcoholic mess and this was years before he was actually a sodden alcoholic mess.

It's an immensely enjoyable and spectacular film, accompanied by a first-rate score by Alex North. What the hell is there not to like?

It's meant to be an old fashioned spectacle but now seems like a campfest.

Oh, Christ, weren't they all?

Cleopatra is divided into two films. One starring Rex Harrison and one starring Dick and Liz. I quite like the first part but the latter half really drags. It takes real talent to take one of the largest and most significant naval battles of early recorded history (second to Salamis) and make it dull.

I’ve always wanted to see this movie but have been avoiding it because it says it’s so awful

It’s not dreadful, R55, it’s just long and lacks dramatic force. Liz is completely unconvincing. Rex Harrison as Caesar is probably the best thing in it.

Liz sucked.

You both sucked.

R47 - Regarding Brando's antics on "Mutiny on the Bounty", I remember seeing an interview with Richard Harris who had 3rd billing on the picture.

He said the filming went on for so long, that he would take off for days at a time. When he came back, he would just pretend he's been there all the time and when asked where he had been standing the day before, he would just point to a spot .

When the movie premiered and the credits ran, with his name 3rd (after Brando and Trevor Howard), because he had been gone for so many days of filming, people were asking "Who was Richard Harris?"

R16, thanks for the recommendation. I watched that "The Film That Changed Hollywood".

I've seen Cleopatra more than once and you can really see the money up on the screen.

According to that documentary, there has been an attempt to find the footage (about 2 hours) that was cut.

Apparently several performances were severely impacted. Hume Cronyn, for one. And they cut out Rufio's (Martin Landau) death and Antony only finds him dead and the audience doesn't know how he died.

I'd love to see the whole 6 hours, because what there is is very lush.

Joseph L. Mankiewicz was all wrong for this movie. The first part, with Rex Harrison, is fairly good--Rex was JLM's kind of actor--witty, urbane. Pt. 2 is all Liz and Dick, who had zero chemistry onscreen (despite all the hoopla) and was completely outside of Mankiewicz' range. Passion and grand romance? No. The movie is watchable but is very long and sluggish. The sets and costume are garish and completely anachronistic.

Who played cleopatra in Shaw’s version. Thats my fav.

Mankiewicz should've had Bette Davis play Cleopatra lol!

To split the difference, either Rachel Dolezal or Lena Horne.

It was not a good movie. It was just one of those overblown, hugely expensive Hollywood productions. One critic called Elizabeth Taylor, who was a rather plump Cleopatra, "overbosomed and overpaid."

The movie sealed Richard Burton's doom. He foolishly entered into an affair with the unstable Liz. Like always, he was going to go back to his wonderful wife Sybil. But Liz made a grandstand play, taking an overdose of sleeping pills. Realizing he was in over his head, Burton cut his losses and threw in his lot with Liz. As a result he lost his acting cred and became a tabloid celebrity, part of "Liz and DIck." His life with her was total chaos, all the time. He sank more and more into alcoholism and so did she, in addition to being addicted to prescription meds. They finally divorced, and having one ot those torturous relationships that go back and forth, remarried and divorced again. Burton, in his fifties, finally seemed to be recovering from his excesses and was in a stable relationship with his fourth wife Sally, Then at age 58 he dropped dead of a brain hemorrhage. What a waste. If only he had never done a movie with Elizabeth Taylor. His career would have been so much different and I think he would have lived longer. He probably would have won an Academy Award, too. I think his association with Liz really tainted him in the eyes of the voting academy.

Burton's alcoholism was off the fucking chain. He drank hard liquor from morning till night, every day. It's amazing he could function at all.

Even Richard Burton was impressed with Liz' ability to put it away--the woman could DRINK. But she was tough--tougher than he was--and she also managed to pull herself together, which he never could.

R65, wow, I thought he was freaking 58 in The Exorcist II.

" But she was tough--tougher than he was--and she also managed to pull herself together, which he never could."

He was doing much better near the end; working, in a good relationship, laying off the booze. And then his brain exploded, from all the previous excess, no doubt. It was tragic. Liz, however, was quite the survivor. She outlived FIVE of her husbands:: Nicky Hilton, Michael Wilding, Mike Todd, Eddie Fisher and Richard Burton.

She should have just married Michael Jackson.

Joan Collins wanted it, even after she made the B-movie knock-off, "Land Of The Pharaohs" a couple years before.

Vivien Leigh

Cleopatra was quite the character. She had 2 brothers and there was no lost love between them. She and Caesar killed her first brother in battle while her second brother, who was more docile, was poisoned by his ambitious sister. She wanted no male heirs in the family to threaten her throne. Typical royals back in the day who did anything bloodthirsty to keep their power. Now royals have to be a tad more careful...……...

R72 Vivien is and was delicious but ‘Caesar and Cleopatra’ is a disappointment for anyone expecting to see her as a second Scarlet O’Hara.

The point of Bernard Shaw’s little domestic comedy was that Caesar —the most powerful man the world— was captured and laid low by a petulant kitty-kat. So Vivien employs her tiny voice to purr a lot using her best Roedean accent.

But it’s fun to pick out the extras carrying spears and lotus fans— including the nubile Roger Moore and Jean Simmons as well as Kay Kendall, Cathleen Nesbitt, Michael Rennie, Leo Genn, Flora Robson and Ernest Thesiger!

I would of liked to see the original Marc Anthony played by Stephen Boyd rather than Burton. Too bad the delays caused him to jump ship. Still, I think he filmed several scenes.

Boyd was prettier than Guy Madison.

Francesca Annis played one of Cleopatra's 2 handmaidens. She was 16-17 years old.

R75 Stephen Boyd as Marc Anthony.

That's the first I ever heard about Taylor demanding another million as mentioned way up thread. She actually made a killing when she went into overtime as stipulated by her contract. 50k per week! She also got 10% of the absolute gross receipt. These two factors alone pushed her final cut to over 7 million 1960s dollars.

Burton and Taylor on the set. I still would have preferred the very handsome and sexy Stephen Boyd -but then there would have been no explosive Liz/Richard affair that turned into a marriage.

r79 good for Liz! In a business where the asshole moguls were raking it in and everybody was fucking everybody over, Liz saw an opportunity to make bank and she took it. Clever woman.

^ Liz may well have started up an obsessive relationship with Pretty-Boy Stephen Boyd.

She already chose Michael Wilding (a tall balding man who wasn't very good as an actor) and Eddie Fisher (an imitation Frank Sinatra as far as I know). Her later husbands didn't seem to be distinguished in any way.

Taylor and Harrison are quite captivating together, and Mankiewicz's dialogue in their moments has a certain sub-Wildean spark. It's not Shakespeare or Shaw, but it works. It's once Caesar's assassinated and the narrative moves from the domestic to the political--as Burton's Anthony lumbers onto the screen, bellowing to the cheap seats in that overripe, nasal bleat--that the film plunges to the depths of the Ionian sea. He could be a magnificent actor, but it's clear that he hadn't yet learnt to temper his technique for the camera lens. Taylor acts circles around him, and then some. Nor does it help that Mankewcicz and his editor appear to have fallen asleep at the wheel in the final act. The last 30 minutes is essentially Alex North doing his utmost to carry the weight of the film.

[quote]Liz may well have started up an obsessive relationship with Pretty-Boy Stephen Boyd.

Wasn't Stephen Boyd a homosexualist?

R83 You're right about Burton bellowing.

I recently re-watched 'Becket'.

Both he and O'Toole rant continuously in a monotone. The director (homosexual Peter Glenville) obviously had been drinking with them because he treated the movie as a theatre performance. The camera hardly moved. The two ranters ranted loudly at the front of the set while the supporting actors could be glimpsed briefly behind them.

R84 I was hoping the biography "Secret Dreams' by Alan Strachan' (based on Redgrave's private papers diaries held in the Victoria and Albert Museum would tell of him paying the gorgeous Irishman for some kind of sex-play back in 1956. But they are silent on the matter.

They do have their moments of Olivier-like crescendo, although I'd disagree that they rant continuously or in a monotone. There's a musicality to their readings that mirrors the inherent musicality of Jean Anouilh's text. And it's such a fantastically crafted play that it can withstand the relatively staid direction and O'Toole and Burton's theatricality.

CLEOPATRA has a great score by the great Alex North.

Here's an in-depth "making of" feature that runs almost as long as the film itself. Okay, not quite. But it's as detailed and informative and the film is laborious. The waste on this film is absolutely astounding, and having worked on two small films myself, it boggles my mind. Even on a big budget, it's insane.

Part 1 is linked below. Part 2 can be found thereafter.

I still can't believe Joan Collins was screen-tested. She simply wasn't good enough to carry a film of that magnitude.

Off Subject, But Tangentially Related:

R83 My favorite Elizabeth Taylor/Alex North film is "Virginia Woolf". The score is minimal, but i absolutely adore it.

Whenever I think of Alex North, I always remember the story about how he tried to compose a score for Kubrick's "2001: A Space Odyssey", which largely resembled the temp tracks the director chose, while offering what he thought was "something more". It wasnt until North attended the premiere, that he discovered Kubrick had completely scrapped his entire score, in favor of the temp tracks. Understandably, he was furious, and deeply upset.

North's original score for "2001" was released posthumously, & featured a forward by his widow, within the album's liner notes. You can find it on YouTube.

"Monroe was upset that Elizabeth Taylor, responsible for many of the problems on "Cleopatra", was given a second chance but not her. "

Second chance? Monroe had already exhausted a million chances! She'd been single-handedly driving up budgets and making directors crazy by now showing up for work, for years and years! At that point, she was someone who'd been forgiven a million times, and who was wondering why she wasn't being forgiven for the millionth offense plus one.

If Liz was forgiven for being unprofessional on the set of "Cleopatra", it was because she didn't have a long and expensive history of unprofessionalism behind her. And because her version of bad behavior had everyone in the world talking about "Cleopatra", Marilyn's bad behavior never made anyone want to see a film. It really is a shame the film was so stodgy, if there had been any sexual fire in it, it'd have been the biggest hit since "GWTW".

Oh yeah, there were black Egyptians, and may well have been some black pharaohs, but of course Cleopatra wasn't one of them.

The film of "Cleopatra" is a stodgy mess, one of those films that's best enjoyed if you turn off the sound and just look at the awesome costumes while listening to music. Really, talking about the film or watching behind the scenes stuff is far more entertaining than the film itself, and really, it's amazing how little chemistry Liz and Dick had onscreen, apparently they were blazing in real life.

Amazing what movie stars could get away with back then. Today, everybody is replaceable. Even the biggest stars would be replaced if they acted like Monroe did on film sets, and constantly missing work days.

I saw a niclely restored print of Cleopatra at a Turner Classics screening a couple of years ago, and I went in expecting a laborious drudge, but I was happily surprised at how fascinating and interesting it was, and despite its long length -- and intermission! -- it really moved right along.

R92 gets it. There are problems, but not big ones. In fact the 4 hour version makes you want to see the 6 hour version that never got delivered. The Mankiewicz script has a lot of great moments.

[quote]r34 MM's numerous absences and sick days may have been intentional as it forced Fox's hand and she was able to renegotiate a million dollar contract with them and was hired back. Unfortunately, she died several days later.

I don't think that had anything to do with her absences. She was simply falling apart.

Which is too bad. She's darling in a lot of the footage they later pieced together, and looked great. But she was a troubled addict/alcoholic and her time was up.

R93 Fantastic clip and great acting! Thanks for posting.

This must be when the Roman Empire took over the British Islands?

[quote] Bernard Shaw was an English socialist-polemicist

Excuse me?

R97 A promotor asked two celebrated Irish-born writers to do a self-promotion lecture tour throughout the United States.

Wilde jumped at the chance to inspect the cowboys and other wild men.

Shaw said I don’t need to travel to spread my ideas across the civilised world. He knew that the most important decision makers lived and met in London and were obliged to take their wives to the theatre after dinner. He knew that inserting his socialist ideas into the subtext of popular plays was the easiest way to get his message to the most powerful audience

A colossal dud. Ancient Rome as Beverly Hills.

"Colossal" r99

Poor Pamela Brown's scene was left on the cutting room floor.

Just so Dick could rant more and Liz could whine like fishwife.

For those interested, a devoted fan has reconstructed the complete “Cleopatra,” incorporating the original screenplay with photos from deleted scenes.

Check Trivette’s Tribute to Taylor

Fascinating.

I’m sorry, R86, I cannot concur with you that 'Becket' is a 'fantastically crafted play’.

I admit I’ve not seen it on stage and I would have adored to see Larry do it on stage back in 1960. But I know that the thrill of a live performance can blind the audience from critical thinking.

The most amazing thing about the play is it’s built upon an error. The playwright didn't know the crucial information that Becket was a Saxon and not a Norman and so this error was brushed aside in the script.

The vulgarian film producer had to drag in extra motives to explain the four-hour conflict between Becket and the king. But he knew Sheridan Morley’s axiom that Americans enjoy ‘snob plays’ and ersatz Shakespeare.

Fair enough, Shakespeare can be indigestible.

They liked ‘Richard of Bordeaux’ (by Gordon Daviot) over Shakespeare’s ‘Richard II’.

There was also Robert Bolt’s ‘A Man for all Seasons’ and Christopher Fry’s ‘The Lady’s Not for Burning’.

Maxwell Anderson made 'Joan of Lorraine’ in lieu of George Bernard Shaw’s ‘Saint Joan’.

Anderson produced more ersatz Shakespeare in his 'Elizabeth the Queen', 'Mary of Scotland' and ‘Anne of Thousand Days

They couldn’t cope with religiosity of TS Eliot’s Becket play called ‘Murder in the Cathedral’ so they went for the Frenchman’s faulty ‘Becket’.

R103, I think you mean that Becket was actually Norman, while the film (and, I assume, the play) goes on endlessly about him being Saxon.

I have not seen the film, and yet whenever I think of Cleopatra I think of Elizabeth Taylor, a success if there ever was one.

I love movies -- old movies, foreign movies, silents, spectacles, you name it; and I was stunned at how awful "Cleopatra" was - dreadful script, terrible pacing, Liz and Dick's atrocious acting. The film is simply a tedious slog from start to finish except for the sets and costumes; but the scenes still go on and on after you've looked at them enough. It is more enjoyable to sit through Griffith's "Intolerance" if you want to watch an amazingly art directed, cast of thousands epic with the pace of drying paint; but Griffith was inventing film language and the whole concept of feature length films as he went, so there are good reasons for what now looks ridiculously over-labored to modern audiences.

R106, you do have a good way with words and some valuable insight, but I enjoyed Cleopatra and I thought the pacing was just fine

R106 I though Taylor and Burton's acting was just fine given how long this spectacle was. For the most part they rose to the occasion. (Applause!)

I want to remember this moment always . . .

Since air travel seems to have been ruined far into the future, I'd like that barge that they built for Liz to sail across the Mediterranean. I could bring a few friends. It would be nice.

Caesar and Cleopatra with their son - Caesar's only male heir. I thought Rex Harrison, normally quite vigorous, was just a tad weak as Caesar.

R41 pretends to knowledge that is not settled fact.

These dreary "experts" who read a Daily Mail news story or click bait and then pronounce on it are a bane to real research.

It may have been poison. It may have been venom. And it may, indeed, have been a combination of both.

Pft.

I think a lot of it remains unequaled spectacle. But a lot of it is boring especially when Anthony is groveling. But when she comes down the Nile on the barge and enters Rome, fabulous? Must have been great fun in a big screen. And Taylor is mostly ravishing.

R107 - Thank you for the nice compliment; I appreciate it. Further thanks to you and R108 for voicing different opinions without acting like I’d murdered your First Born.

Thoughtful, well stated yet differing opinions make for interesting conversations and maybe you see something In a new light. This place is full of smart interesting folks, but so many will Brook No Dissent from their POV and pounce on your typos to boot. Look at the nutty vipers nest over on the Merman thread, it’s not only the opinions that are like assholes.

This arrived today. I want to make sure the neighbors know what a fagola I am...(also, my COVID hair is the new wave hair I wanted in the 80s).

"Marilyn is enchanting and very natural with the kids."

Spoken like a smitten MM fan. I didn't think she was right for the part of a mother. She'd never played one before and for good reason. She didn't have the range for it.

R112 I've read extensively about Cleopatra and it was said that when Octavian finally had his nemesis Cleopatra trapped he told the guards to turn a blind eye to her and her handmaidens. He wanted to be rid her once and for all and he got what he wanted - it is speculated that she had one of her handmaidens fetch strong poison which then she and the 2 handmaiden drank and all died together. The asp story is simply a fanciful legend. How can you make an asp bite you and your 2 companions and then all mysteriously die a very quick death? It was poison, of which she was an expert, (she poisoned one of her brothers) that did the trick.

I saw the movie in Algeria when I was 10 years old. It was dubbed in French with Arabic subtitles. Since I spoke neither language and barely knew the story, I was very confused.

Years ago, pre-internet, pre-streaming, I stayed for two weeks in a hotel in Mexico that had three films that played in-house. One was the first half of "New York, New York," but not the second half. Then Mel Brooks' "Silent Movie," with all the title cards in Spanish. And also "Tora! Tora! Tora!" which was originally in English and Japanese (with English subtitles.) But this copy was in Spanish and Japanese (with Spanish subtitles.) It's difficult to imagine all of that, so I assure you it is true.

Cleo/Liz looking quite sultry.

R120 if only she had maintained that weight for all of filming

[quote]Cleo/Liz looking quite sultry.

And looking every inch the Queen of Hollywood. The Queen of the Nile? Not so much.

Richard Burton re Elizabeth Taylor "WHERE IS THAT FAT, SAGGY TIT CUNT?" Such a charmer. How fucked up is it that not only was he fucking Eddie Fisher's wife in plain view, but at one point he even beat her black and blue and Eddie. Does. Nothing.

At one point, Eddie calls Elizabeth's villa to speak with her, but Richard answers. "What are YOU doing there, Richard?" "I'm fucking your girl." That GIRL is my WIFE!" "Alright then, I'm fucking your WIFE!" **click**

I think part of the appeal of the movie is that Elizabeth Taylor is clearly, nearly nude in several scenes

Uhhhh... that might have been a selling point for audiences in 1963, but not so much now and NEVER for me.

[quote]I've met a lot of "black power" types who fully believe that Cleopatra was black

No you fucking haven't. No one believes you know a lot of black supremacists who all happened to talk about Cleopatra at length.

I haven't seen Cleopatra so I went looking for photos and didn't see anything where Liz was "nearly nude." What am I missing?

Did Liz ever show her bare titties?

You couldn't avoid seeing the cleavage in Liz's fat white buttocks and some side-boob.

Supposedly the handmaidens were nude behind some gauze but I was able to avoid seeing that.

Quick service R130, thanks! That must have been slightly scandalous in its day.

There is also a lot of "now you see it, now you don't" when she gets into her bath. But you never quite really see it. Or them. Or much besides her shoulders.

Martin Landau is chewing up the scenery in R134's link.

I don't hate the film at all, it's rather enjoyable if you take it as presented.

Certainly it's as much about the early 1960s and Hollywood and a foreshadowing of Las Vegas as about the historical Cleopatra, via Shakespeare, all tidied up for modern tastes. The sets and costumes are absurd, more Hollywood costume party than anything. A few exceptional bits of 19thC Egyptian Revival furniture show up at odd moments, other pieces have no rhyme or reason, and run the spectrum of quality.

When I saw it as a kid the takeaway was its sense of scale and grandeur, and over grandeur in campy moments of which there were plenty. The sweeping changes of scene impressed me. I didn't buy the love story bit then or now, unless a love story was a parody of a Liz & Dick brawl/romance.

It's still interesting to see every how many years, to reflect on all the decisions that went into the film.

R32 imagine if she farted in that bath, the bubbles!

Seems like Octavian would have gotten very little PR benefit by allowing Cleopatra to kill herself in Alexandria, or having his guards do the deed. By this time Romans loathed her. He would have gotten a much bigger boost by parading her in his triumph back in Rome, and then executing the woman who perverted Antony with her wanton "Eastern" ways.

Elizabeth Taylor was a great star and she did not fart!

I meant if Cleo farted! She was gorging herself!

Cleopatra with her miniature golden barge.

Fart jokes are so funny!

As to All About Eve not being visually interesting enough, and like a play - movies can be anything. Younger generations have been raised on movies by film school graduates who think if a film's story can't be told through action and pictures, it's not worth telling, which has devolved into comic book action heroes, wizards, the sinking of the Titanic, and hobbits. I won't go into all the reasons All About Eve is great, but I almost feel bad for someone who can't just enjoy it for the wit, the plot, and the direction that deliberately doesn't call attention to itself but allows the actors to be front and center. Also it may not be visually exciting but it's a very beautiful looking film.

R143

[quote] ...who think if a film's story can't be told through action and pictures, it's not worth telling, which has devolved into comic book action heroes, wizards, the sinking of the Titanic, and hobbits.

Yes!

Not long ago a friend of a relative in his early 30s told me that "Double Indemnity" was boring.

People who think this way are lost.

R141, I spent an evening in Cleopatra's barge. Good music and lots of dancing.

Here's a vintage photo.

Burton had so much potential but he turned into lazy drunk. All his latter films are filled with supporting actors from his days on the stage back in the 1950s.

And Liz obviously got her old 'Lassie' co-star Roddy MacDowell the job as Octavian. McDowell is a lightweight, IMHO, suitable only for comedy.

It's almost as if they wanted an extended year-long Roman holiday with their boozy mates.

R146, Many critics cited Roddy's performance as one of the highpoints of the film.

[quote]Many critics cited Roddy's performance as one of the high points of the film.

Did someone mention High Point?

I think William Wyler's 'Ben-Hur' works well with its consistent casting. The villainous Romans are played by Brits and the humble Jews are played by American Jews.

This Mackiewicz 'Cleopatra' is a motley assortment of Brits, Italians, Welsh, Yankees, French, some Nubians and one Turk. And how on earth did that hick Carroll O'Connor get such an important role? He was a nobody at the time.

Yeah McDowell was considered a shoe-in Best Supporting Actor nominee that year but he was submitted in the wrong category. Fox took out full page ads to apologize. It’s kind of sad.

[quote]Yeah McDowell was considered a shoe-in Best Supporting Actor nominee that year

Oh, dear.

[quote]r128 Did Liz ever show her bare titties?

I think this is the closest she came. I don't know if this is a candid, or from "Ash Wednesday," or "The Driver's Seat," or what.

So, she showed them, more or less, at the point in her life when she should have been concealing them.

Basically, yeah.

Shoo-in****

Roddy McDowall was apparently hung like King Kong.

Roddy McDowell as Octavian. He looked and played the role rather fey - which may have been close to the truth since Octavian was a male prostitute for awhile and may even have been sexually involved with Caesar.

Gossips might say he was hung like King Kong but wasn't he chosen because Octavius was an effeminate weakling and usually played by homosexuals.

Wow R152 those are great tits! And that's from a gay man

I love the color and cut of this dress on her.

This is also an excellent pic of Cleo/Liz.

The procession with Caesar.