The Queen - 1968 Documentary

Harlow in a clip from The Queen. Andy Warhol was a judge and brought Edie Sedgwick along. Crystal Labeija (from Is Paris Burning) is a runner up and she storms off and attacks Harlow backstage after she's crowned. "She should take that dress to the cleaners before the show, not after!"

I've been meaning to watch this. I know clips of it were used in the season one opening of Transparent.

Sorry it's "Paris is Burning," not Is Paris burning.

I got to see it in a movie theater!

Finally, something called The Queen I don't have to get the wig out for.

What a relief.

Saw it a couple of months ago - I couldn't believe they found all of this footage. Why did they sit on it for so long? Very interesting - people also seemed to speak differently back then.

But - although I thought it was the same person as in Paris Is Burning - aren't they 2 different people? Crystal LaBeija and Pepper LaBeija?

They sound and look a lot alike - but different names, right?

Amazing piece of history, I'll watch it with my boyfriend. Thank you for sharing. Love historical documentaries.

You're right R6. The contestant was Crystal LaBeija who was also the one who came for Harlow after she won.

The MC who sang a truly horrifying and off key version of "Am I Blue" as the contestants paraded onstage was enough to make me want to stuff my ears with hot candle wax. My question is where did they get the money to rent 28 rooms in a hotel,a full (though not very good) orchestra, and also the Town Hall (which must cost $$$). I did love all the "Barbra Bob" wigs and frosted pink lipstick. A lot of these girls looked like the queens who fought the cops at Stonewall a year later.

Crystal LaBeija:

Grace's brother was prettier than she was!

To my amazement, this film was actually released in 1968 at Cannes, but the unrest in France had the festival called off.

The Film Forum apparently found the film and resurrected it in 2013. Interestingly enough - that is where the film Paris Is Burning debuted. (I saw one of the first showings of PIB at The Film Forum.)

Scrolling the internet, some people talk about how this movie helped drag queens and transgendered people over the decades - but it wasn't available, was it? It's like this film (very important film) is becoming a false memory for the community. I had never heard of it or had seen anything written about it in my lifetime.

Grace's father (when he was young) was even hotter than the son.

That's what's so fascinating, R10. How incredibly "ahead of their time" they were.

R11 Wow!

More Jack Kelly

"Paris Is Burning" was the superior film. The Queen was mostly white drag queens with NY accents and bad costumes.

R15 - yes, but 2 completely different films. PIB struck gold with Dorian and Pepper. Without their old wise drag queen commentary, it wouldn't have had much heart.

Julian needed boys not girls!

"...aren't they 2 different people? Crystal LaBeija and Pepper LaBeija? "

Probably different, they look different, my guess is that they were both members of the House of LaBeija.

It's been a long time since I've seen "Paris is Burning", but I vaguely recall that the members of the various "Houses" used the name of that house as a last name. It's entirely possible that the House of LaBeija was operational from the late sixties to the mid-eighties, for all I know it's still going on! I also wonder if the white drag contestants belonged to such a House or even knew about the subculture of drag houses, PIB gave them impression that they were a POC thing.

R18 - it was a POC thing, but they had a handful of white members.

I loved the flyover queens who came in to compete from small-town Mississippi and the like. Also, Harlow's wig emergency.

Crystal was Pepper's drag mother, I'm pretty sure. Harlow (Rachel Harlow) co-owned a nightclub and later opened a restaurant with her then-husband, a French chef. She keeps a low profile these days, but she and Crystal both appeared at the 25th-anniversary screening of [italic]The Queen[/italic] in 1993.

Loved the footage of Harlow getting off the bus from Philly and walking the streets of NYC with her little plaid suitcase.

Watched it.... WOW! - I liked that they focused on the camaraderie of the contestants rather than the shade at the beginning, including all the little anecdotes. Wish they had interviewed more of the contestants though.

- they showed a lot of a rehearsal but never showed the number. The camera man was infatuated with the gap toothed twink in the front!

- Harlow was cute as a boy but a tragic drag queen. Crystal was right, but the 1st runner up should have won.

- Was everyone so ugly then? RPDR has a lot of cute queens, but not this show. The "page" boy was very cute (the kid who grabbed their coats during the show).

-Listening to the cacophony of queeny Noo Yawk accents, I imagine this is what a DL happy hour would sound like (because no fly-overs would be allowed, of course!)

There was this one guy who didn't speak or seem to have any connection to anyone in the show. He was kinda hot and you'd get a glimpse of him every now and then.

[quote] want to stuff my ears with hot candle wax.

Pics please.

"Crystal where are you going?! This is no time to show temperament?!"

International Chrysis (then a twink named Billy Schumacher) was in the rehearsal scene.

The revolution has started...

In the opening credits, I wondered who "Si Litvinoff" was.R27. So I checked his Wiki. He co-produced this in '68 and then executive produced "A Clockwork Orange" in 1971 (!!) Talk about two completely different projects. Efrem Zimbalist Jr. was his cousin. Si is still hanging in there at 91.

Si wasn't shy. He used his real name. The other producers used corporate names.

R10, I remember seeing this this for rent in video stores in tje ‘90s, so it’s at least been available for general consumption since then.

R31 - interesting. Was the video store in a gay area? I'm just surprised I had never heard of it before - particularly in comparison to PIB or even Boys in the Band.

You would think this would have seeped into my gay consciousness somehow over the years, after living many years in NYC, Chicago and LA.

What surprised me is, as bad as the documentary is, it got stellar reviews from the media. Maybe a little patronization from the critics. It was a new age. Gays were becoming chic accessories to have at parties. Next year Boys in the Band would show up and the critics weren't as kind. Clive Barnes said: "“the special self-dramatization and the frightening self-pity — true I suppose of all minorities, but especially true of homosexuals.” Yup, he wrote that. Clive could be such a bitch. "Boys" didn't have the good-natured bitchy optimism that "The Queen" had. And they all tore each other apart at the end which was kind of sad to watch.

Was Clive Barmes gay?

Anyway, IMHO "Paris is Burning" was the first documentary about gays or LGBT to have real mainstream success, the kind that meant theatrical releases in the suburbs where people like me and my friends and neighbors could see it. And it was very sympathetic to its subject, unlike "Boys in the Band".

Grace Kelly's brother married a drag queen?

I think they said that Grace's brother was *stopped* from marrying a drag queen.

Ya thing Prince Albert was going to allow a drag sister-in-law

[quote]Interesting. Was the video store in a gay area? I

I'm not who the question was directed to. But I've had a VHS copy for at least 20 tears. I bought it , I believe, at a Hollywood video during those occasions they'd sell tapes to make way for new stock. It was not in a gay area.

R23, is this who you mean? I saw him and immediately fell in love!

I couldn't remember who was who in and out of drag. That, coupled with the...unique camera work made it difficult to really follow. We're so spoiled these days with labeled talking heads and clearly defined narrative arcs.

Yeah, that's the guy R38.

[quote]That, coupled with the...unique camera work

You're being too kind with "unique." If they managed to keep someone in the frame it was an accomplishment, never mind in focus.

Yes, they weren't clear in who was who in and out of drag. There was a very cute blondish surfer type who I only recall seeing only a couple of times out of drag.

Life After Paris Is Burning | TRIBE TV NTWRK

International Chrysis. I remember seeing her at The World and at Susanne Bartche’s Copacabana

OP, do not disrespect Tab Hunter like that. At least he was honest about his sexuality and lived it authentically in a time were it was still criminal to be gay.

Your closet queen chose to hide behind a man in a dress. Cowardice isn't attractive.

[quote]Loved the footage of Harlow getting off the bus from Philly and walking the streets of NYC with her little plaid suitcase.

I like this montage set to "Comme Ils Disent (What Makes a Man a Man)" by Charles Aznavour.

Apparently, this was supposed to be a huge event. Judy Garland was supposed to judge with Sammy Davis Jr making an appearance, however they both cancelled. That's why there was to be a documentary but when the celebrities dropped out they had nothing to film.

They did get Andy Warhol to show but I guess the filmmakers didn't want to bother him.

What talented people the Kellys were.

Crystal and Lottie LaBeija I believe created the very first drag house, "The House of LaBeija" sometime in either 1973 or 1974. Crystal LaBeija is considered the very first "Drag Mother". NYC I believe has been producing drag pageants since about the mid 1860s until it went underground in the mid 1930s due in part to the eventual backlash against the "pansy craze" or almost anything that could be "coded as gay".

The queen who made the most impression on me was the tubby southern queen in the hotel room. Harlow was rather a nonentity on screen. And Pepper's famed read was neither particularly funny nor sharp.

R49 that was Crystal not Pepper.

Know (or knew because some are now deceased) a few old school drag queens and trans that knew International Chrysis. Apparently she was a wonderful person who died way too soon from liver disease brought on by silicone breast injections and hormones.

From Susanne Bartsch parties met the "ghurl" who got Chrysis's bf after she passed, and last time one heard they were still happily married.

International Chrysis at her best:

It is important to remember drag/female impersonation (and camp) was a huge part of the gay community from about the Victorian or Edwardian era well into 1990's, and still goes on today. All sorts of gay men went to "drag balls" then you had events like "Night of a Thousand Gowns" (aka Night of a Thousand Clowns).

Lines began to blur when trans began to enter and change the scene and the two worlds began to merge. Most drag queens of old never wanted to change their sex, and certainly didn't take hormones. They lived as gay men (maybe effeminate, but never the less....)

Roger de Bris wouldn't have been the only white gay man at some drag ball or event....

Of course then and even now not all gay men liked nor even wanted to be associated with drag and certainly not trans. These are the same gays who find camp disgusting and the whole use of feminine pronouns in reference to men (gay or otherwise) equally repulsive.

Wow she was beautiful. Sort of a cross between Rita Hayworth and Marilyn Monroe.

It's a shame about the "illegal breast augmentation." Injecting silicone directly into the breast. I knew a beautiful girl in LA in the 70s who had a small career in show biz. She ended up as our receptionist. She did the silicone. Her breasts stood straight out and looked solid as a rock.

She looked a little like Michelle Phillips with Dolores Gray's grill.

[Quote] I knew a beautiful girl in LA in the 70s who had a small career in show biz. She ended up as our receptionist. She did the silicone. Her breasts stood straight out and looked solid as a rock.

Was she known as Helen/Dolly?

Looking at what these queens were working with cosmetic-wise back then, it's amazing how much better it is now.

R53 For those who missed it the Camp: Notes on Fashion Costume exhibit at the Met last year had a lot of objects and scholarship about even 18th century and Victorian era culture extending into early 20th century, much of it new to me. It’s interesting how deeply buried much of that was in the backlash of LGBT peoples.

Check out the third exhibit photo Camp (adj.) expanding for the text at the +. Unfortunately Met links show as grey boxes here.

R54

Trans, drag queens, men and even females have been getting injections of silicone for decades. Pumping (as it is known ) still goes on despite all the warnings about dangers.

Breasts, hips, buttocks, lips, and cheeks are some of the areas, and people just won't listen.

Porckop from Drag Race went on that Plastic Surgeons' show because of bumpy silicone on her face, or rather, under the skin of her face.

Silicone? I don't know what you're talking about.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R57

Especially for POC drag queens/trans or even just women or men. Even professionals working with actors, models, etc... had a very limited range of cosmetics to work with on POC, and the darker skin colors fared worst of all. You look at television, print, or film of AA or darker Latino/Hispanic women or men of day in photos or whatever and their face or jawline rarely matches neck skin color.

Foundation, concealer, and powder just wasn't created in a wide enough shades; most stopped at various levels of deep beige or dark tan. Products like Max Factor pancake (a staple back then) looked horrible on even lighter skinned women of color like Diahann Carroll or Lena Horne.

More on Rachel Harlow

Another:

Flawless Sabrina was the organizer and MC. Loved her!!! Gone now. Passed away in 2017. She was from a Jewish/Italian family in South Philly. Could you tell?

"Crystal where are you going?! This is no time to show temperment!"

love it. funny and touching too.

NYT obituary paid notice and tribute.

Flawless Sabrina did all right for herself, living on UES just off Central Park (East 73rd) was never cheap even back in the day.

Harlow looks like she had a rough life. Such sad eyes at R65. The Kelly thing must have been so embarrassing for her.

Great Obit on Sabrina. My favorite quote is the one about taking drag into the hinterland: “The places that were kind of off the beaten track were the places where the largest number of drag queens would come out of the hills in sausage curls and hoop skirts,”

Flawless worked for/with Hilliary Clinton.

[quote]Porkchop from Drag Race went on that Plastic Surgeons' show because of bumpy silicone on her face, or rather, under the skin of her face. . She had "sil" injected in her nose 20-something years ago, and it shifted and got lumpy.

R69

Then narrative for trans was that they got the chop then could live rest of their lives as "women", and that would be that; it seldom happened.

Those fortunate enough to find partners often found their post-op status meant nothing to family and friends of such men, or many others for that matter. They were still "men" and anyone dating or otherwise involved with them were considered gay or at least highly suspect.

That the Kelly family forced John Brendan Kelly Jr. to break it off with Jeannette isn't surprising. It happened then, and still does now. Know one trans who married some European man who either didn't know or care; but his family forced an end to things. She gets about one grand per month in payments that IIRC will end soon.

Rachel was able to catch a bit of happiness with both a husband and successful business, but neither lasted. At some point people just want a quiet life I suppose. All the fame or whatever Rachel S. Harlow received hasn't thus far seemed to bring her lasting happiness.

There's something lovable about Harlow. I can see why a variety of gentlemen loved her. In the Queen the way she embraced the queen who hugged her after she won and Crystal went nuts. Silently crying. The way she stood there while Crystal humiliated her. "Look at her makeup. It's awful!" Bitches be jealous. Her makeup was fine. She looked like a Carnaby Street princess compared to Crystal.

There's a sadness sometimes about the trans experience, esp. when it first started gaining popularity in the 70s with hormones and acceptance. The ones I knew struggled to be themselves and keep a roof over their heads, never mind paying for the hormones. I felt so bad about the queen from Paris is Burning who just wanted a house and a man. She had it all pictured in her mind. And then a trick murdered her and stuffed her under the bed.

Venus Xtravaganza.

International Chrysis was one of the first "non-op" trans who threw out that garbage about being a "man trapped in a woman's body". She was a woman above the waist, man below and fully enjoyed the attention and pleasures that combination brought.

It isn't by accident that non-op trans are or have taken all the wind out of room for "true" transgenders, that is those who still want and get the chop. By a very large majority men who seek out and or prefer trans excursively want them with working dicks.

Thing about not having the chop is at anytime she wishes a trans can to back into boy's clothes. Implants can be removed, hormones stopped, weaves taken out and or whatever else done to hair, etc... and there you are.

Salvador Dali loved the drag queens. Another one of his favorites was Potassa de Lafayette who was a Filipino runway model with a hot cowboy boyfriend. She'd enter the club in a Giorgio di Sant'Angelo original that she had modeled that day sitting on the cowboy's shoulder. He'd gently lift her to the ground and that meant the party had started.

^ GG's Barnum Room and The Gilded Grape were the center of the NYC drag/trans scene in the '70s.

I remember them. I hung out at the old Limelight on 7th Ave. South near Christopher. The Ninth Circle. Tenth Floor. The Trucks. The piers. The Street. It was another time.

Too many names to keep track of: the Dupont twins, Salvador Dali, Potassa de Lafayette , Martha Steward, Egon von Furstenburg.....

Did you ever hear of a guy called Richard DuPont? He wasn't one of the DuPont Twins. He was a fright. Penciled in eyebrows, liquid bronzer and a shirley temple wig in tank top and ripped jeans. He had three cars. A mid-60s Bentley, a 30's Rolls-Royce, and a Mercedes Pullman, all stolen in Europe and still bearing the plates from those countries. He lived on Washington Street right near the old Stud bar. He gave me a job driving his lawyer around. Instead of pay, he'd let me use the Bentley until I got stopped at the Trucks and couldn't produce a registration. He was a con man who tried to destroy his ex creepy lawyer Roy Cohn after he bailed on him over a men's gym project in the Village.

R79

By all accounts Potassa De LaFayette came from Santa Domingo, not Philippines.

Ah. I stand corrected R83. Wonder if she's still alive.

Anybody ever had Egon. He was hot back then.

R75

So many trans (especially those of color) came from some rough backgrounds both economically, emotionally and socially. Thus rather in common with whores going back ages they often have this dream about meeting a gorgeous, rich (often white) man who will marry them, move into a home, white picket fence, etc..... It almost never happens.

Most guys then and now are just into trans for sex. Some as part of gay or club scene go through a phase where they date or even believe they are in love with a trans. Sooner or later they wake up and move on. leaving the trans back to square one.

Looking for love in all the wrong places can (and sadly often does) lead to tragic outcomes.

R83

By some accounts Potassa was still alive late as 2018 or 2019 living in the Bronx of all places.

Once Dali died and all that "muse" or whatever work dried up what was she going to do? It was same for many others from that era who once were kings or queens of Studio 54 or whatever nightclub/disco. World moves on and that era ended....

Trouble with running many of these old school draq queens or trans to ground is not knowing their given names.

"Wicked beauty" Octavia only died this decade. What was her trajectory?

R88

Pretty much same as rest...

Or....

Sorry, wrong link.

Thanks for the link.

Is anyone familiar with this 2006 documentary called Trantasia, which was a reality TV show and pageant held in Las Vegas at the Rivera Hotel and was hosted by Jahna Steeles. She was a former showgirl of the year until it came out that she was Trans and it almost ruined her. I knew her in the late 80s in Vegas when she performed at gay bars.

Also dead; overdose (accidental).

There's a really interesting book called [italic]Branded T[/italic] that captures the old NYC scene alluded to upthread. The author, Rosalyne "Roe" Blumenstein, was part of that '70s drag/trans nightlife milieu and ran with gurls like Potassa. But unlike so many of them, she got her shit together and became a therapist.

This was on YouTube for years. Was it just released officially?

R96 It has been recently been released on Blu Ray by Kino in the U.S. I had seen it a number of years ago on YouTube and really enjoyed it so I purchased the Blu Ray (which is beautifully restored by the way). Holds up very well to a second viewing and I think superior to Paris is Working. The Blu Ray also has extras but I haven't had a chance to watch them yet.

By the way anybody anywhere in the world interested in purchasing the Blu Ray it is Region Free! Playable worldwide!

The YouTube link at R27 still works.

"A lot of these girls looked like the queens who fought the cops at Stonewall a year later." - Got any photos of them, r8?

Dunno if the queens were in full drag that night. Don't forget, back in the 60s you had to wear mostly "masc" outfits or the cops could/would arrest you, like that night. And you had to have a third person (female) if two guys wanted to dance. In the 70s movie "Some of My Best Friends Are," a very funny Fannie Flagg filled that role.

Fannie and her friends.

[quote]OP, do not disrespect Tab Hunter like that. At least he was honest about his sexuality and lived it authentically in a time were it was still criminal to be gay. Your closet queen chose to hide behind a man in a dress. Cowardice isn't attractive.

No girl. Tab didn't come out until he published his autobiography in his 70s (which isn't bad btw). It was his big, sell-out moment when he knew he wasn't up for any more jobs and he didn't even spill that much, esp. about Tony Perkins and his freaky sexual issues.

"Comme Ils Disent (What Makes a Man a Man)" by Charles Aznavour at R45 is sorta amazing!!!!!!!

R100, there's only one drag queen type in that pic (excusing the guy with the handbag). If you had to dress "masc" back then, one wonders where all these alleged transwomen who started the Stonewall riots were (especially the trans women of colour, since there are only a couple of black yet non-trans people in that pic). Perhaps they simply weren't at Stonewall, despite what we keep being told?

"Don't forget, back in the 60s you had to wear mostly "masc" outfits or the cops could/would arrest you, like that night." - Nobody was arrested that night for being in drag/dressing "femme". This thread is all about 60s transsexuals/drag queens, so it's not as though they didn't exist or were completely hidden. They just didn't happen to be at Stonewall.

There were always a lot of drag queens around but I honestly don't think you could say drag queens started the riot. The Stonewall wasn't really popular. The people in that photo are pretty indicative of the crowd there. Word spread quickly. The Village Voice was just around the corner and they sent Arthur Bell over to cover it IIRC. Believe there were drag queens who arrived along with gay teens/young men who were more prevalent back then. It played out that way over the years. I was in the Village that night a few blocks away at a place called the Gold Bug on W. Third. A few years earlier the Mattachine Society brazenly staged a "sip-in" there which the New York Times (!!) headlined as "Three Deviates Invite Exclusion by Bars." It's really hard to believe how marginalized and tormented gays were by the press back then.

"The SLA issued an order dated April 1, 1966, suspending Julius’s liquor license for 30 days because the licensee had allowed “homosexuals, degenerates, and/or undesirables to be and remain on the licensed premises on Nov. 12-13, 1965, and conduct themselves in an offensive and indecent manner contrary to good morals.”

Another press account..."Homo Nest Raided"

Here's another shot of the Stonewall crowd. They were outsiders of the gay "mainstream" who were maybe more femme than others and hung together.

There are also people who break the rules, r104. And if some of the gurls were hookers, they might have gone to the Stonewall to pick up a trick.

[Quote] I think superior to Paris is Working.

I don't how anyone could fin "The Queen" superior to "Paris Is Burning." The former is so slight. I guess if you were nostalgic for the 1960s and the 1980s meant much less to you...

*could find

I think the Queen, slight as it was, became the catalyst for the better-produced Paris is Burning. Renata Adler and a few other prominent/edgy journalists really raved about the Queen which probably made it possible for PIB to have better production values. The Queen is quaint and unpolished and what little charm it has is because of that.

on you tube under the title emerald city tv, there are interviews with porn stars, queens, directors, etc on an early nyc tv gay show. great fun

R112 Is it Robin Byrd?

This is the channel.

Thank you R114. It's great!!

I believe Pepper mentions it in PIB. Something like "I am not the founder of the House of Lebeija but the overall mother..." She also goes on to give the real T about trans as some posters here have already mentioned. I watched The Queen earlier this summer, and I believe DL was posting about it. Anyone else curious about NYC gay history should check out the YT channel R52. A lot of those videos feature RuPaul and early Pride parades from the 1980s. These queens walked so we can run. Love the history lessons, gonna spend time on R114 next. ♥️🏳️‍🌈

R112

Through both Emerald City TV and Robin Byrd shows were both cable public access television, they were different types of shows.

Emerald City covered LGBT news, events, etc.. sort of a forerunner to GayTV news.

Robin Byrd's show was porn actors and strippers; male (gay and straight) and female....

More:

The man pictured at r118 was only 70...?

R119

Don't be daft! That was picture used for obituary which was taken long before Mr. Stavis died. Link below shows a picture taken in 2007 of Mr. Stavis, he died seven years later in 2014.....

Harlow looks like Kellyanne Conway!

MY EYES!

robin byrd was skank, she dead?

Still very much alive.

Ms. Byrd made a shit ton of money from phone sex lines before AOL/chat made them obsolete.

Pepper became the second house mother in the house of LaBeija after Crystal died.

How did Crystal die?

Robin was hysterical. She was always stoned on weed.

R126

Same as (sadly) many other trans; liver failure/disease

Is that to do with street 'mones?

Important to remember there were underlying socio-economic and racial tones behind the two different worlds shown in "Queen" and "Paris Is Burning".

Queen showed the stately beauty pageant like world of (mostly) white (usually) middle and upper class white trans, gays, transvestites. Roger de Bris would have represented on end of that spectrum. But on the other end you had "queens" that worked as everything from "shop bottoms" to hair dressers, male nurses, in show business, etc... Some were trans, but most others just did drag for the camp and fun of things. The latter may have been effete men, but they were't going for the chop or other gender reassignment.

The Harlem balls and world were totally different than "Night of A Thousand Gowns" sort of events. These were mostly if not exclusively POC events (African American, Latino/Hispanic), and they drew persons from usually totally different worlds.

We've discussed this before on DL, and it is worth remembering LGBT community such as it was back then tended to be very racially segregated. This applied to trans, drag as well.

R129

Street or whatever source, taking female hormones can mess up your body; warning labels on every single estrogen medication have long list of adverse effects including but not limited to liver damage, thrombosis, etc...

There were doctors back in 1960's on ward who saw trans; but they weren't cheap and insurance didn't cover any of it. Many trans who were POC or Latino/Hispanic either lacked health insurance, or maybe were on Medicaid. The latter of course didn't pay and even those who managed to have jobs with insurance didn't have access either. Insurers looked at treatment and prescriptions and questioned why a male was getting female hormones.

There is also was a whole compliance issue; taking female hormones requires frequent regular medical exams including extensive lab blood work (endocrine) looking at among other things liver function. Plenty of trans were just concerned with being "real" and "cunty" , and didn't have time for all that so they sought other sources. Ironically many of those "others" were crooked nurses and doctors that did side business in hormone injections. That or pharmacists who sold estrogen, progesterone and needles on side.

Other thing was too many trans having no understanding of what they were doing took huge dosages of hormones to make themselves "real" or whatever. That ended up doing a number on their liver and cardio vascular system. Add to this a lifestyle that included smoking and booze, and you can see where things went....

Is it easier for MtFs who transition pre-male puberty?

[quote]Saw it a couple of months ago - I couldn't believe they found all of this footage. Why did they sit on it for so long? Very interesting - people also seemed to speak differently back then.

There was no footage to find. It was an actual documentary that played in theaters. It opened in New York City and played for six months then opened at various theaters in the NY area.

It's funny how Harlow is usually sold as the centre of the picture but the poster was of Flawless Sabrina.

R134

That is what medical community gives out. Didn't that "Jazz" or whatever start transitioning before puberty?

In theory if carefully medically managed starting a young boy on hormonal therapy before puberty, or during will produce a more feminine "girl" since they are trying to mimic normal female development. But there are issues.....

First estrogen stops bone growth, which is why females on average are shorter than males. Nature knows what she's doing, but man is another matter.

Administration of female hormones to males causes chemical castration. If this is done early in a male's life it can fuck up developing testes/male reproductive system permanently. Even with adult males there is a window of time when they are given female hormones when stopping will allow their reproductive system to be undamaged. However longer hormonal therapy continues risks are greater this will never happen and they will be left sterile permanently.

Option on table that wasn't years ago is for a trans (young or old) to store their sperm in a bank before starting hormonal therapy, so if they want children later it will be possible.

This is how things are supposed to work, but Mother Nature has her own ways.

Back in 1990's when out with some friends was introduced to a trans, her "wife" and their baby. We were out at some restaurant on Sixth Avenue when the two parties bumped into each other. When the trans and company left of course I had questions.. Turns out even after taking hormones for years the trans wasn't shooting blanks.....

Looking at things another way; RuPaul (for lack of another title, a drag queen) is arguably more famous and certainly wealthy than any "famous" trans.

RuPaul makes his/her money essentially being an entertainer; not trying to be a woman. Not taking anything away from Candis or the rest, but their careers are limited by simple fact of what they are, and people know.

What does RuPaul have to do with it? I don't think people undergo surgery like this lightly. There are always exceptions. I read April Ashley's autobiography. She had a similar life to Rachel Harlow - marriage, restaurant hostess, shop assistant - and one thing of Ashley was certain, the surgery and living life on her own terms saved her life. There were no regrets on that front.

Kim Petras is doing pretty well.

Because we're discussing essentially drag queens which is what film "Queen" was about That is how RuPaul fits in who when you get down to things isn't that much different than that Roger de Bris character. Rue started out doing drag for many reasons but having a sex change was nor is one of them. Only time RuPaul is drag is when she's getting paid.

"The Queen" has a mix of personalities and identities, not just gay men who show out for a dollar.

Crystal spent money on her gowns, wigs and makeup to participate in this event.Harlow showed up with the clothes on her back and was given the prize.

[quote]Know (or knew because some are now deceased) a few old school drag queens and trans that knew International Chrysis. Apparently she was a wonderful person who died way too soon from liver disease brought on by silicone breast injections and hormones.

She used to jokingly refer to her tits as "Johnson and Johnson," which sparked an urban legend that she'd had them injected with floor wax instead of silicone.

Miss Emoré DuBois, Harlow's runner-up and one of the nicer queens in the movie, went on to win Miss Florida FI (Female Impersonator) in 1973. The Miss Florida Pageant has long been a huge deal in the Florida drag scene and used to attract celebrity lookie-loos like Liza and Elton John. Emoré came back to celebrate the 45th anniversary of her win at the 2018 pageant.

"female impersonator" haven't heard the phrase used in years.

R141, you're right and the video was intriguing. I enjoyed watching it. Harlow had great natural bone structure and a Carnaby look and they let us know from the beginning it was rigged in her favor. Crystal did better makeup than everyone and she went all out, but she had no chin. There was $$ involved and a girl needs her coin so I felt bad for her.