THEATRE GOSSIP #389: "With Supreme Visions of Looney Tunes" Edition

Sally Bowles is a mediocre singer. Not necessarily a bad singer.

Follies is forever!

Gypsy is eternal!

So is Sondheim!

And that's what you've missed.

What's your favorite song from HAIR?

Post it.

Esther Ofarim.

The ending.

[quote]HAMILTON is a little more complex for that type of stunt casting.

Pia Zadora IS Angelica Schuyler.

[quote]And I can't think of a single musical I've attended in the past 30 years at which I haven't been disengaged EXCEPT for a Sondheim musical.

That was my point, people who appreciate Sondheim are not the average run of the mill theater goer, they are not just one of the masses and they are out numbered by those who sit in the theater disengaged just wanted to be entertained and not think.

Responding to R550 in the previous thread, who said Jerry Herman shows wouldn't last because of their creaky books.

I wouldn't be surprised if, in the future, the suggestion of a DL-er on a previous thread actually becomes all the rage, and they start updating the books of famous musicals to make them work for a contemporary audience. I don't mean they update Dolly till it's Hamilton: I just mean they clean up the book so it's a well-made play with snappy dialogue that flows nicely into the songs. It's the songs the audience is there for, and surely the moneymakers will at some point realise there's a ton of good stuff on the shelf because of the aspect of a musical everyone notices least.

It would be quite easy to do, because audiences for old musicals are pretty conservative: older people, wealthy bourgeoisie and gays who insist the original was always the best. You wouldn't have to adapt them to the point where feminists, BernieBros and the trans lobby were happy with them, because that's never been the audience.

Of course, the alternative is that we enter a golden age of new musicals, with brilliant composers, lyricists and book writers appearing everywhere, in which case the old creaky stuff won't be needed. It's a dream...

R6, people who appreciate Sondheim are not the average musical-goer. Quite a lot of them are probaby heavily into their Chekhovs and Becketts and whatnot.

Annie Golden performs "Frank Mills" at a "Hair in Concert" benefit for the Actors Fund in 2004.

The nude scene. But no one ever seems to ever video it.

[quote]With Supreme Visions

Is there a Supremes Jukebox Musical in the works? I'm free to play myself.

The Dramatists Guild is pretty protective of authors' works for stage, and that includes books/libretti to older musicals. A producer would need to get permission from the original bookwriter or his/her estate before they change a word of it, much less revise it extensively.

I'm not completely opposed to revising old books, but it is difficult and usually not very successful. I'm thinking of the "revisicals" of FLOWER DRUM SONG or PAL JOEY in recent years, which just sounded awful. I also recall ENCORES was doctoring books of classic musicals (with David Ives, I think) until they thought better of it and decided to serve them straight up--as they should.

Isn't Diana Ross' daughter playing a diva type in some upcoming movie (headed to streaming with the theaters closed)? Does she sing, too? She seems like a nice person on talk shows, and she's funny.

That said, most of the Gershwins' catalogue of musicals and some Rodgers and Hart shows are prime candidates for new books.

Some Cole Porter too, I think.

Why do the keep hiring new orchestrations for old show? I remember it was a thrill during the Broadway revival of "On Your Toes" directed again by George Abbott in his 90s (!) that they went with the original Hans Spialek orchestrations, and they sounded so fresh to hear. Is there some clause that they have to have new orchestration for old shows, that newer ears have to hear brassier and noisier? Classic orchestrators used to know how to set music so they legit and belters didn't have to have mics, too.

I imagine a lot if it has to do with economics. The producers may say they want it to have a fresh sound, but what they really mean is they want half the players in the pit.

[quote]I also recall ENCORES was doctoring books of classic musicals (with David Ives, I think) until they thought better of it and decided to serve them straight up--as they should.

Oh, God, yes. And they always had Ives at the Saturday talk-back sessions. Like he had single-handedly saved the American Musical Theater. They kept forgetting that the point of Encores was to hear the score and the book was just there to get the audience to the next song. Maybe the book needed some trimming, but it never needed anything added.

[quote]Classic orchestrators used to know how to set music so they legit and belters didn't have to have mics, too.

Patti LuPone commented on this at one of the Encores talkbacks. She said in the older musicals, the string section would play while the singer was singing, and the brass section would only come in when nobody was singing.

Best song in HAIR? It is hard to imagine a song having a greater impact than AQUARIUS had from the day the show opened. Being an eldergay, that song is ingrained into my DNA. Maybe it's different if you didn't live through the age of Aquarius.

R14 It's worth noting that the most successful musical revival of all time is "Chicago," which used the original orchestrations.

R17 - Yes, I heard Sondheim and Barbara Cook say the same thing in a random joint NY Times interview of theirs I found on YouTube the other day. Cook mentioned that when she had recently played with a symphony orchestra, they had produced new orchestrations for whatever the song she was referencing because with amplification, the orchestra didn't have to be "held back" the way they had to in the pre-amplification days. She talked about what a joy it was for her to sing with an orchestra that could go "all out."

Since we're getting geeky about Broadway orchestras (I mean, who else, but us?) what are some of the best SOUNDING shows y'all have seen on Broadway? I've only been attending Broadway shows since the 2010s, so I'm way behind most of y'all. But that 2014 revival of On the Town was just pure joy. In no small part due to that incredible orchestra in the pit. They sounded so magnificent. Bernstein would have been proud.

I was struck by how, at the performance I attended, you could almost sense people leaning in to appreciate that gorgeous swell of Bernstein's music emanating from the pit. Even those who may not understand how unusual it is to get such a large orchestra these days could sense how special it was.

Totally agree about that ON THE TOWN revival orchestra. Glorious. Also SOUTH PACIFIC at LCT.

I recall loving the full sound of the (short-lived) revival of FINIAN'S RAINBOW, which I think started at ENCORES. For all its flaws, ENCORES always respects the orchestra, making it the centerpiece of most shows.

By contrast, I saw the much-acclaimed PIPPIN revival late in its run.... and was horribly disappointed by a tiny, tinny orchestra, completely out of sight. (I love the Schwartz score without apology, BTW.) A friend told me that it opened with a much larger orchestra but was downsized over its run: can anyone confirm if that's accurate?

Broadway orchestras and orchestrations are one of my favorite topics! Traditionally, shows were scored for 25-30 players. Nowadays, a pit band of 12 is considered big on Broadway. :( The exceptions are notable: the revival of Wonderful Town used the full orchestra, and even placed them on the stage proper. It absolutely made the show work. I was at the opening of the South Pacific revival, and when they opened up the pit to reveal 34 players the audience stood up and cheered. On the opposite end, the otherwise- wonderful revival of Sunday in the Park with George that came over from London used such a tiny combo (I think it was six players) that it was noticeable that the score could never swell. :(

The Light in the Piazza used 18 musicians, if I recall correctly. Composer Adam Guettel stipulates in the rights contracts that no synth/electric instruments are allowed, and no microphones, in the pit! He and the orchestrator provide several different-sized orchestrations for productions to choose from so they can comply with this, and so that the composer's intentions are honored at every production. I wish more shows had this option!

I haven't been to a Broadway show in years, since I moved from New York and I was sad to learn that these days many shows do not have live string sections because of the expense.

Orchestrations can make or break a show. Jonathan Tunick is a god! His work on Pacific Overtures (and pretty much every show he ever did) was an integral part of the play. Many times flop shows produce great cast albums, and people wonder why the show failed. In those cases, it's the strength of the score and the orchestrations that deserve the credit. Goodtime Charley deserved to flop, but the score itself has a lot of great stuff, and Tunick's orchestrations are glorious.

I love a full orchestra (and love seeing union musicians with good paying gigs) but sometimes it's just a question of making the most of limited resources.

The best feature of the MIM revival of 50 MILLION FRENCHMEN at the York last year was the orchestration for 2 pianos--that was it. It worked wonderfully well in an admittedly small space.

Synthesizers suck.

"That was my point, people who appreciate Sondheim are not the average run of the mill theater goer, they are not just one of the masses and they are out numbered by those who sit in the theater disengaged just wanted to be entertained and not think."

And some of the people who appreciate Sondheim are the first to let everyone know how intellectual, sophisticated, and superior they are, even though the very people they look down upon and mock as being of inferior are the very patrons who keep theaters running. Without the non-thinking "disengagers," Broadway would be a small series of art houses, where the elite could watch a three person production of Follies and then sip wine and praise each other's superiority.

"those who sit in the theater disengaged just wanted to be entertained and not think."

Being entertaining doesn't preclude it from being engaging. It's just that the level of "entertainment" of recent years has been so lackluster (at least for me) it doesn't even offer those surface charms.

"That said, most of the Gershwins' catalogue of musicals and some Rodgers and Hart shows are prime candidates for new books. Some Cole Porter too, I think."

I think you'd be surprised to know how well some of those librettos play today. They may reflect the manners, mores and topicality of previous generations but that doesn't mean they can't be appreciated for what they are. Even at their most lame, they're no worse than the dreck one can surf on television any hour of the day. I'd take one of the sharper P.G. Wodehouse librettos, written for one of the Princess musicals, over just about any thing else penned today.

"The Dramatists Guild is pretty protective of authors' works for stage, and that includes books/libretti to older musicals. A producer would need to get permission from the original bookwriter or his/her estate before they change a word of it, much less revise it extensively."

And for good reason. The original author---in collaboration with the songwriters---went through the Agony of conceiving and realizing it on the page.. It hardly seems fair that, willy-nilly, someone else, decades after the fact, should stand on the shoulders of giants and pioneers and reap the rewards of their efforts by drafting a rewrite, especially when it's at odds with the tone of the original material, like the unnecessary Flower Drum Song, or the silly On A Clear Day (Lerner was one of the greatest writers ever to grace the stage, with a sure grasp of his themes and concerns). And if the songs live on and the books are less than stellar, so what? They were created together from whole cloth and should be respected, accordingly.

I saw “Hair” on Broadway back in January of 1969, and, believe me, the “nude scene,” at the end of Act I, was nothing to write home about.

About six people stood up, without moving, and mostly in shadow, so you couldn’t see much. Apparently, if they moved, they could be arrested for “lewd behavior.”

Not exactly thrilling.

(That summer, I was an apprentice at the Bucks County Playhouse, where Shelley Plimpton, who originated “Frank Mills,” was in one of the shows. She was sweet.)

Wholesale revision of books almost never works out. The revised versions of Annie Get Your Gun, On A Clear Day, and Flower Drum Song were terrible! I agree with [R27] that in most cases the original books are dramatically sound. What happens is that people panic of un-PC dialogue and situations that no longer pass muster. Ironically, shows that actually tried to be culturally sensitive/aware are often the first ones targeted for revision (Show Boat, Finian's Rainbow, Flower Drum Song, South Pacific...). I'd much rather see and hear the original work, with a disclaimer in the program and/or a pre-show announcement that the situations and language used in the show reflect the period in which it was first created.

R21 - I've only seen that LCT South Pacific on TV, but the orchestra sounded amazing and I loved the way they revealed them for the overture -- such a lovely touch and an opportunity acknowledge the musicians.

Funnily enough, I didn't feel the same way about the King & I revival even though much of the same team was behind that production. Maybe I'm just too used to the wonderful film, but I was surprised that the score didn't sound more... grand and lush in the theatre.

[quote] I was at the opening of the South Pacific revival, and when they opened up the pit to reveal 34 players the audience stood up and cheered

[quote] I was at the opening of the South Pacific revival, and when they opened up the pit to reveal 34 players the audience stood up and cheered

I saw that revival four times, and while the audience never stood up and cheered, it always received a thunderous ovation, Even though I knew it was coming, the hair on the back of my neck stood up every time it happened

[quote] On the opposite end, the otherwise- wonderful revival of Sunday in the Park with George that came over from London used such a tiny combo (I think it was six players) that it was noticeable that the score could never swell. :(

That revival used 5 players. But the original orchestration was scored for 11, so it wasn't exactly huge either. Sunday is deceptive because the orchestra was expanded for the Original Broadway Cast Recording, so it has a much bigger sound than what was heard in the theatre.

Broadway’s New Stage Is a Mic:

"On the opposite end, the otherwise- wonderful revival of Sunday in the Park with George that came over from London used such a tiny combo (I think it was six players) that it was noticeable that the score could never swell."

Was that the Daniel Evans revival? I saw it in London, and the tradeoff was, the orchestrations were arranged and conducted (at "tempo giuste") in such a manner that every word and note landed with ruthless precision and clarity. I'm hardly a fan of the show but no better case has ever been made for the work than that production.

Sunday is one of those scores that I think actually works best with about 15 musicians. That delicate chamber sound is just perfect. I saw a production somewhere -- I'm trying to remember where -- with a huge orchestra. Something like 35-40 musicians and it wasn't quite right. Too bombastic.

Although a very different score, the same is true for Chicago. It's perfect with its 15 or so musicians.

R21 - that's a bummer about Pippin. It wasn't a huge orchestra either -- I think about 15 or 16 musicians. Is it common for long-running productions to reduce their orchestras? I saw the production about a year into its run. Most of the original cast was still there, though Tovah Feldshuh was playing Berthe. As I recall, the orchestra sounded just as good as they do on the cast recording. In fact, I think it's better to call them a band, because they played with the rhythm and precision of a really good rock band.

Is "Hair" the last show that produced a substantial number of pop hits? "Good Morning, Starshine" (Oliver), "Easy To Be Hard" (Three Dog Night), the title song (The Cowsills), "Aquarius/Let the Sunshine In" (Fifth Dimension.) I can't think of another one where so many songs were covered by other artists and became chart hits. And it's really depressing to think that "Hair" was over 50 years ago. I saw a production recently (having seen the first national tour in San Francisco when I was in high school) and was mortified to realize that for the young actors in the show, this was as much ancient history to them as World War I and the Roaring 20s were to me.

It was great fun seeing and hearing, "It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's Superman" (even if some principals were miscast) some years ago and the recent "Mack and Mabel" at Encores with full orchestra. Those have some wonderful orchestrations.

Oh, for god's sake, who are all the idiots on here yammering on and on that Sondheim is just too HARD to deal with and they want to be purely ENTERTAINED...fuck y'all.

Sweeney Todd is a murderous blood bath thriller with a daffy female lead in love with the killer.

Into the Woods is a musical about children's fairy tales.

A Little Night Music: a delightful romantic musical centered on one rich, artistic family.

I mean, it's not fucking Proust.

If you prefer shitty musicals based on shitty musicals or "jukebox" musicals based on some pop/rock star then just admit you're too stupid to enjoy anything else.

[quote]Oh, for god's sake, who are all the idiots on here yammering on and on that Sondheim is just too HARD to deal with

Those of us who saw Passion!

Good times and bum times, I've seen 'em all and my dear, I am STILL here!

[R33] Brings up something interesting. Many cast recordings use augmented orchestras. Sunday in the Park was expanded, and so was Passion (tons of added strings). Can anyone name some others?

Most cast recordings have an augmented orchestra, i.e. more strings.

"Dames At Sea" with Bernadette on the recording sounds like a huge orchestra, and quite wonderful. Was it probably just like a piano down at the old Bouwerie Lane theater?

Sir Thomas Beecham was probably the most famous and most esteemed British conductor of the first half of the 20th century. He was once engaged to conduct Richard Strauss's Der Rosenkavalier at a regional British opera house. Der Rosenkavalier is famous for its huge Wagnerian sized orchestra of over 110 instruments.

When he arrived for his first orchestral rehearsal, he was surprised fewer than 60 members present. "Where is the rest of the orchestra?" he demanded. Someone tried gently to explain that the theater was on a limited budget and they had to use an abridged orchestration. Beecham exploded.

"If you can't AFFORD to do Rosenkavalier why are DOING Rosenkavalier!"

I think you mean a reduced orchestration. Abridged would mean they cut some of the opera, though in "Der Rosenkavier"'s case, I wouldn't mind if they cut some of Baron Ochs' part, as a lot of his stuff just goes on endlessly other than his famous waltz.

Yes, I meant reduced, not abridged. Thank you so very much for the correction.

[quote] Many cast recordings use augmented orchestras. Sunday in the Park was expanded, and so was Passion (tons of added strings). Can anyone name some others?

Lots of added strings for the OBCR for A Little Night Music, which is why it sounds so much better than any other recording of the score.

Most orchestration in the Golden Age was in the 25-30 range. The original Carousel, famously, had an orchestra of 39, with a massive string section. There was a reduction in the house minimums for musicians following one of the Local 802 contract negotiations maybe a decade ago. Producers argued that modern musicals with pop scores didn't require orchestras of 25 players, which is true. But the result is that revivals of the Golden Age shows and new shows in that style now usually come in with orchestrations for 12-18, and mic the shit out of their musicians, so they are huffing and puffing to double their sound. There have been exceptions like the Lincoln Center R&H revivals, and the recent Hello, Dolly!, Carousel and West Side Story revivals, but we often get these sad little bands in place of what used to be the big Broadway sound. Truly, one of the worst developments of the last decade or two in Broadway's decline.

So Noah and Ben were quarantining together *before* they were "dating"? I didn't understand that story in the last thread.

Gross. No one cares what those two fugs are doing with each other.

"Oh, for god's sake, who are all the idiots on here yammering on and on that Sondheim is just too HARD to deal with and they want to be purely ENTERTAINED...fuck y'all."

"If you prefer shitty musicals based on shitty musicals or "jukebox" musicals based on some pop/rock star then just admit you're too stupid to enjoy anything else."

Ladies and gentlemen, presenting the arrogance of many Sondheim groupies on full display.

Who cares if the are arrogant about being right?

How’s this for a lousy Best Actor in a Musical lineup?

My favorite Sir Thomas Beecham quip:

"Parsifal is an opera that begins at 6:00 and when you look at your watch three hours later, it's 6:20."

A wonderful overture...

Hey if Broadway is dark until September 6, how are those chorus boys in flip flops going to pay their rent this summer?

OnlyFans.

according to this (from 10 years ago) "Producers are free to dismiss "one or more or all of the musicians above the minimum" after the 10th week of the run." So the critics hear a great sound, write their reviews, and the show can quote them even though they've changed the feeling in the auditorium

The Little Me overture is glorious, thanks to Ralph Burns, who did Funny Girl, Chicago, Sweet Charity, No No Nanette. Brilliant. Gay, too.

And I adore Eddie Sauter For Superman, Apple Tree, 1776. All great. Even Henry Sweet Henry.

Can someone ask Ben Platt to stop crying? Seriously: STOP CRYING.

A remake of "The Mirror Has Two Faces" with Ben and Noah?

The excellent revue After Midnight had a killer onstage band picked by Wynton Marsalis. When the bandstand slid forward and they just wailed it was thrilling

After Midnight was one of my favorite Broadway shows in the past decade. A ridiculously short life...People are stupid. It should have been sold out for years.

Ben and Noah probably just bump pussies all night.

Ben Platt is a meeskite.

R64 Misogyny and bottom-shaming. Double bigotry. I bet you use Sondheimites also. Who said the theater attracts a better class of people?

Not to mention a morbid fascination with what other people do in their bedrooms.

Oh, please. Just because they are nosy, that doesn't mean they are also morbid.

Showgirl - Carol Channing.

This will open on the twelfth of NEVAH!

As will Hit the Sky!

Nick Cordero's wife announced yesterday that he came out of his coma. It had been five or six weeks.

[quote]Lerner was one of the greatest writers ever to grace the stage, with a sure grasp of his themes and concerns

We beg to disagree.

R62 / R63 - Yes, After Midnight just radiated joy. Phenomenally talented singers, dancers and musicians performing stone cold jazz age classics with aplomb. A celebration of black excellence. It's a shame it didn't run longer. I don't think Gladys Knight or Natalie Cole got to start their runs, did they?

Alan Jay Lerner had an amazing run, with Paint Your Wagon, Brigadoon, An American In Paris, Gigi, My Fair Lady and (sort of) Camelot. Pretty much every Broadway songwriter in the rock and roll era wrote their worst shows. I hope we wouldn't judge Richard Rodgers for Two by Two, Rex, and I Remember Mama, or Jule Styne for Prettybelle, One Night Stand and The Red Shoes.

Fantasia AM....

[quote] Nick Cordero's wife announced yesterday that he came out of his coma. It had been five or six weeks.

Just some eye movement. I hear his first blink was- You fucking attention whore, what have you done?!

I see an IRONSIDE reboot in the future.

The musical of Forrest Gump.

r78 The tried it with Blair Underwood in 2013. Pulled after four episodes.

Maybe "Ironside: The Musical!" would work.

If they cast IRONSIDE with someone who actually uses a wheelchair, it could get a lot of publicity and support.

A woman in a wheelchair as Ironside: my Broadway musical debut!

Zombie Barbara Cook IS Ironside - The Musical (whizzing about the stage on multiple moving platforms).

Felt like listenin' to a little Yma....

Golden Age and classic stage musicals aren't going to die out.

The actual good stuff will go the way of opera. In fact, I very much see opera being usurped by musicals or at the very least, opera companies and musical companies sharing the same spaces presenting works in repertory while "mainstream" theaters show whatever shitty jukebox/show based on some idiotic movie/piece of pop culture plays to the sweaty dumb masses.

I'm not an opera fan, but I respect the cultural role it occupies.

Opera people should seriously worry about that role as we move into a post CV-19 world. The economics of opera and the declining/aging audiences were already a huge problem before coronavirus. If the Metropolitan Opera in NYC is struggling so mightily, what's it like in the rest of the country?

[quote]I'm not completely opposed to revising old books, but it is difficult and usually not very successful. I'm thinking of the "revisicals" of FLOWER DRUM SONG or PAL JOEY in recent years, which just sounded awful. I also recall ENCORES was doctoring books of classic musicals (with David Ives, I think) until they thought better of it and decided to serve them straight up--as they should.

Thanks for point out for the other poster that there have already been several examples of the books of old musicals being rewritten. Regarding Encores!, I think David Ives' work on those shows was limited to some editing of the books -- which Encores! still does, to some extent -- not rewriting.

Don’t forget one of the worst musical book rewrites ever: Nicky Silver’s wretched version of Boys From Syracuse for Roundabout. It was especially painful since Encores had just triumphed with the original version a few years earlier.

Where is Nicky Silver these days? Does he ever get produced anymore?

There's one casting director for some shows who used to explicitly tell you in the audition notices to NOT do a monologue by Nicky Silver! I forget who it was.

For you, r85.

Here’s my favorite

R87, your post made me wonder if the Met (and venues like Radio City) could be used, via reduced capacity, to house big musicals where the audience could be properly spread out.

A better version, r85.

The problem won't be staggering audiences in a space, that's easily accomplished...but how do you stage the actors? How do you play love scenes, group numbers, huddling, and the like?

Move the actors into a hotel, ferry them in a bus/coach to and from work?

Fun fact: Anne Bancroft was considered to play Louise in the original production of Gypsy. I wonder if Merman would have preferred her over Sandra Church? I wonder if Bancroft could have put up with Merman playing straight out to the audience?

[quote]Was that the Daniel Evans revival? I saw it in London, and the tradeoff was, the orchestrations were arranged and conducted (at "tempo giuste") in such a manner that every word and note landed with ruthless precision and clarity. I'm hardly a fan of the show but no better case has ever been made for the work than that production.

The five or six pieces used in the Roundabout's Broadway transfer of that production of SUNDAY were just not enough for a Broadway-size theater. The "orchestra" sounded quite pathetic, though I very much enjoyed that production in other ways.

[quote]Don’t forget one of the worst musical book rewrites ever: Nicky Silver’s wretched version of Boys From Syracuse for Roundabout. It was especially painful since Encores had just triumphed with the original version a few years earlier.

Agreed, that was one of the worst embarrassments in the Roundabout's history. And, Lord knows, they've had more than a few of them.

R93, hope that wasn't a real Hair cast. No one would want to see them naked.

r100 I saw a revival of it in LA with Marissa Jaret Winokur naked. Turned me gay.

R101 But wasn't that the one with Sam Harris and Steven Webber nude, and for longer and in brighter lighting than the usual staging of the nude scene?

I thought it was Suzanne Pleshette who was the runner-up to Sandra Church for Louise in "Gypsy"? Pleshette also took over for Anne Bancroft in "The MIracle Worker" on Broadway, so I guess they were considered similar in type back then.

r102 Yes, but my eyes were on James Black at all times.

R96, a West End producer was on the BBC News last night saying it wouldn’t be financially feasible to reduce capacity in theaters by staggering audience members. That ain’t happening unless it could be done in an enormous venue like Radio City. Movie theaters will be fine doing that.

Another great overture: Goodtime Charley. Interestingly, the overture on the cast album was created specifically for the cast album, and incorporates most of the original Entr'acte. My only quibble is that it segues directly into the open song, "History," which is not a favorite. This is a classic example of a score that was far, far better than the show.

[quote]I thought it was Suzanne Pleshette who was the runner-up to Sandra Church for Louise in "Gypsy"?

She may have. The Anne Bancroft tidbit comes from one of those theater books put out by Peter whats-his-name (sorry I'm too lazy to look it up, damn 'rona has made me a fat whore).

It came down to Church and Suzanne Pleshette, r98.

It's hard to believe smokey voiced Pleshette was down to the final two. It's like Kaye Ballard insisting that she was in the final three for the title role in MAME.

Bancroft had a lovely singing voice. I'm surprised she didn't do more musicals.

I do hope Ballard was in the final three for Helen Lawson.

Wasn't Styne fucking Church and that's why he refused to cut Little Lamb -- he had privately promised her a song. Laurents, Robbins and Sondheim all wanted it gone because the show was way overlong out of town. I think Merman made some quip about the situation.

Annie does Cole...

If Laurents hated "Little Lamb" that much, he'd have definitely cut it just like he did for "Small World (reprise)" and a few other bits in his revivals since Styne's death.

R102 - Steven Weber of Wings fame? Can't say I find him an exciting actor, but he's a sexy daddy.

Bancroft's singing voice sounds like what would happen if Lauren Bacall had a slightly more pleasant sound and technique. Seems to be in a similar low range, but there's definitely more polish to it and it's very nice.

Bancroft actually sounds like a Sally.

Yes, that Steven Weber.

[quote]If Laurents hated "Little Lamb" that much, he'd have definitely cut it

I've heard that Styne seriously threatened to pull the whole score and go home if LL were cut.

I never understood Nicky Silver's appeal, or why exactly he was one of the house pets at the Vineyard, a theatre I've usually liked.

"Little Lamb" introduces Louise as a single character, divorced from her sister (from whom she'll soon be separated). It's an important song. They could probably cut "Mr. Goldstone."

It Shoulda Been You with featured actress Tyne Daly.

Part 2 It Shoulda Been You

[quote]This is a classic example of a score (GOODTIME CHARLEY) that was far, far better than the show.

Actually, one of the major problems with CHARLEY was not the book (doctored by Peter Stone) as much as the set. They cast a dancer (Ann Reinking) to play Joan of Arc, and then gave the choreographer a beautiful set (Rouben Ter‐Arutunian) but with lots of columns and steps. Every dance number was foiled by these obstacles.

Part 3 It Shoulda Been You

Part 4 It Shoulda Been You

Part 5 It Shoulda Been You

[quote]It Shoulda Been You with featured actress Tyne Daly.

Is this version with Mrs. Neil Patrick Harris? Or had he already acquiesed to Neil and departed NYC for Fire Island?

At least with Gypsy they cut that god awful Mama's Talking Soft. What a shitty song.

Mama's Talking Soft was written to be sung in counterpoint with Rose singing Small World in the restaurant scene. It's charming when done so. It was cut for two reasons: 1) as mentioned above, the show was way too long in previews; and 2) the little girls were terrified of the high balcony in the restaurant set where they were perched to sing it.

Why didn't they dump the brats and hire some little people?

[quote]Mama's Talking Soft was written to be sung in counterpoint with Rose singing Small World in the restaurant scene.

Of course it's still referenced in "Rose's Turn" when Rose sings "Mama's talking loud."

Ann Reinking GC

[quote]Why didn't they dump the brats and hire some little people?

Because we couldn't find any little people that sang like Merman and we weren't rewriting the score.

If Sondheim had his way, Mr. Goldstone would be out. He's often said the punchline of that scene is when Rose offers him the egg roll and everything that happens after that is just beating the same old joke as everyone runs around trying to pretend things are exciting. Little Lamb is usually very boring, but at least you can argue that you need it to develop Louise a little bit. Laura Benanti made the best case for its inclusion that I've seen.

Mr. Goldstone = Gee, Officer Krupke

[quote]Why didn't they dump the brats and hire some little people?

Works for me.

Did anyone see Evita in its original London run? Listen to the orchestrations on this. They sound terrible. Was this the way it played in the theater?

“Little Lamb” is the I-wish song that introduces Louise and her character arc. It’s essential. Rose has hers earlier with “Some People”. June doesn’t get one, because she disappears halfway through. But Louise needs one.

Someday, a production will cut all but the first line of “Mr. Goldstone” and Sondheim will be proven correct.

Bancroft was the main contender for Funny Girl before they decided to try Streisand.

Ann Bancroft should have played Nurse Faye Apple

R137 I can't definitively answer your question, however I know that this event - the 1978 Oliviers before it was known as the Oliviers - was produced by Cameron Mackintosh. And when Andrew Lloyd Webber went up to accept his award for Evita he made a few choice comments about how badly produced the evening had been - which does rather suggest he wasn't too happy with how Evita came across. It apparently led to a year of Mackintosh essentially promising retribution and death for ALW, which then resulted in them having dinner to clear the air - and from that came Cats. I'm not saying the retribution and death would've been preferable, but...

Interesting r141, I didn't know that. Who told Elaine Paige to scream her head off? And listen to the music when they start Rainbow High. It sounds like they are at Oktoberfest and a German Oompah band is playing.

[quote]Did anyone see Evita in its original London run? Listen to the orchestrations on this. They sound terrible. Was this the way it played in the theater?

Those obviously aren't the theater orchestrations. There is a London cast album, you know, and I believe the orchestrations are the same ones that were eventually heard on Broadway.

R142 I don't think anyone ever needs to tell Elaine to scream her head off.

[R123]: “Goodtime Charley” was a mishmash. A serious soldier Joan of Arc encounters a would-be Catskills comedian of a monarch. All this played against sets based on the paintings of famous early 20th century illustrator Maxfield Parrish, famed for his lovely, dappled landscapes, which evoke anything but the Hundred Years’ War.

At the time I saw it, I even recognized which Parrish paintings inspired what sets. Even the original ad campaign, by David Byrd, depicted Joel Grey as Parrish’s King Cole, from the famous mural in the St. Regis Hotel. At the time, there was a revival of interest in Parrish’s work.

Interestingly, though the Byrd artwork was first used in various venues, such as a full page in the New York Times, it was later scrapped in favor of what has been shown above, making the show seem like a bland kind of romp.

But no ad or set was capable of knitting the incompatible elements together. Ann Reinking’s Joan simply upstaged Joel Grey’s frivolous Charles VII, much as her character did in history. And how could she not? In this tale, no one is ever going to succeed in making the venal Charles upstage the saint.

But the score was quite good, and Reinking leapt about beautifully. Grey just looked uncomfortably out of place. “George M.!” this wasn’t, even though it managed to run a good two months.

"everything that happens after that is just beating the same old joke as everyone runs around trying to pretend things are exciting."

That's okay. It's called celebrating the moment.

"Mr. Goldstone = Gee, Officer Krupke"

No comparison whatsoever, and silly, to boot.

"Little Lamb is usually very boring, but at least you can argue that you need it to develop Louise a little bit."

You have to think like writers. Lamb not only gives Rose a respite between Goldstone and the Chinese restaurant scene, but it slyly informs us that Louise has no idea how old she is (i.e. her age is kept a secret for the sake of the act), a brilliant touch. Also, the hotel scene has a ton of information to impart to the audience (the kids are grown, it's Louise's birthday, they're on the road, the landlord is calling, etc etc), not to mention a frickin' lamb. How else do you cap the scene but with a song, no matter how much of a throwaway? If there was no song, Rose would say (as suggested above), "Mr. Goldstone, I love you," there'd be a blackout....and the audience would sit there stupefied. It's a musical and the scene absolutely needs a button--a musical button--to release the tension and transition to Little Lamb.

"Goldstone" and "Little Lamb" are both fine songs and each serves a purpose.

Goldstone is a light comedic song, the only purely comic one in the entire show. It's adds lightness to a show that's quite dark.

Lamb, as already mentioned, is necessary for Louise's character development. It adds warmth and sweetness to a show...etc.

I get what others are saying about Little Lamb, but it comes off a bit simple-minded. It makes Louise seem a bit "special".

Little ant, little ant, Momma is on a rant

Little roach, little roach, do I get a fairy tale coach

Little worm, little worm, do you think my breasts are firm

Little bat, little bat, do you smell a big fat rat

[quote]Goldstone is a light comedic song, the only purely comic one in the entire show. It's adds lightness to a show that's quite dark.

Yeah, that "Gotta Get A Gimmick" is a real tear jerker. The audience just feels waves of pit for those poor girls.

Sorry... should have specified in the first part of the show.

We've already got the "May We Entertain You" in the early part of the show.

Instead of specifying the “entire show” as you did?

"Little Lamb" usually goes down in flames when performed by a 25 year old actress trying to "act" 16 years of age, an impossible task for an actress. And entirely backwards for this song.

The song is the first moment where we see things not exclusively from Rose's point of view. Rose may think her daughters are 'babies,' but there is dissension in this family. The daughters are maturing and they don't agree with their mother's view of the world. Cue the violins.

"Little Lamb" sets up everything that follows in GYPSY. Instead of an actress giving us a tremulous adolescent, better we get a first glimpse of a young woman who is Rose's worthy opponent.

R146, I think Sondheim's comment is not arguing against there being a song there. Rather it is just that the one that is there is not very skillful.

And he is right.

Sondheim's knows how to build a comic song. You Gotta Have a Gimmick and Funny Thing and even Company have comic songs that do not exhaust the joke in the first two lines, but rather build.

[Quote] better we get a first glimpse of a young woman who is Rose's worthy opponent.

How would she play Rose's worthy opponent in "Everything's Coming Up Roses"?

She doesn't, R155. That's not what's going on in that scene.

When Louise sings "Little Lamb," she's alone and she expresses things she is not yet ready to express in front of her mother. But by the first scene in Act II, she's speaking her mind.

Little Lamb is sentimental hogwash, whatever it's meant to achieve. It's not a question that it should have been ditched: it just should have been replaced with a better song with the same aim. It's true it makes her sound kinda "covfefe".

And I'm a Sondheim fan.

R146, I like your analysis, but I've never thought Louise literally doesn't know how old she is. When she sings "I wonder how old I am," yes, she's reacting to the fact that she (and her sister) are made to play much younger on stage, but more specifically to the fact that the presents she has been given for her birthday are little-girl presents.

In real life, Gypsy Rose Lee did not know their years of birth. Gypsy and June Havoc finally tracked down birth certificates when they were middle-aged. However, they were not certain that these were actual and accurate.

The biography, Stripping Gypsy posits that 1911 is probably the year of Gypsy's birth.

So Little Lamb is not metaphorical. Gypsy literally never was sure of her age.

Nicky Silver now resides in London, where he dresses as a mime in Waterloo Station.

R159, thanks, I did not know that. But I do still think Louise's line "I wonder how old I am" can also be taken as her response to receiving a bunch of little-girl presents for her birthday, so it works on at least two levels.

Actress/performer who doesn't know her real age? Convenient.

You can argue that Little Lamb has a function in Gypsy, but you can't argue that it's a particularly interesting moment. I agree there needed to be a song in that spot, I just wish it was a better song.

R143, in some instances the orchestrations for Evita in the original West End and Broadway productions are totally different. “Buenos Aires” is a notable example.

R139, She was also the first choice to play Crawford in "Mommie Dearest".

To each their own. Personally, I think "Little Lamb" is a lovely song that serves a couple of important plot purposes. It offers a respite from Rose's overbearing, conniving ways, and it sets up the audience's sympathy for lonely, untalented Louise, which is crucial when Rose focuses all her "I'm going to make YOU a star" attention on Louise at the end of act one. I also love that Styne threatened to pull his whole score from the show if Robbins cut "Little Lamb." Sondheim has said many times that Styne was a prolific composer who would gladly junk a melody if Sondheim expressed any doubts about it. I'll bet if Sondheim had had any concerns about "Little Lamb" that Styne would have agreed to cut the song or replace it. I know Sondheim has complained that "Mr. Goldstone" is a one-joke song, but I don't recall him ever saying anything negative about "Little Lamb."

"Little Lamb" sounds better with a soprano and most Louises have been chesty, almost speak sung types.

Yes r127 David Burtka is in it.

Fela.

Swan Lake - Matthew Bourne - 2019 Production.

R169 - thank you! I LOVED Fela! Saw it three times between Broadway and the national tour. Bold, vibrant, at times thrilling. Speaking of great orchestras, it was smart of the production to hire Afrobeat band Antibalas as the on stage band. They lent the production a touch of authenticity it would have lacked with a traditional orchestra/band.

Honestly, it's the best thing that Beyonce and Jay-Z produced.

Gypsy - Imelda.

Jesus, even in the thumbnail you can see how Imelda is screaming her head off.

R172 - hard pass.

Imelda in Gypsy is proof that UK critics/audiences are easy to please.

You know what I haven't listened to in forever? Ethel's Rose's Turn...

Nah. Imelda was the real deal. I saw her a couple of times live.

I saw her, too, R177, and she was. (I'll also admit that the filmed version does her no favors somehow.) My issues were with the cheap-looking scenery and the reduced orchestrations (no strings).

[quote]But I do still think Louise's line "I wonder how old I am" can also be taken as her response to receiving a bunch of little-girl presents for her birthday

But why would you think such a thing?

[quote] "Little Lamb" sounds better with a soprano

Laura Benanti sang it the best I've ever heard

I never cared for Little Lamb until I saw Benanti sing it. I finally "got" Gypsy, and suddenly realized that this show isn't about a funny, pushy stage mother and her shy daughter. It's about an emotionally abusive narcissist and a survivor of that narcissistic abuse, Gypsy Rose Lee.

Exactly, R181. Just ask yourself, "What's the name of the show???"

Once you've got that in hand, it falls into place much more clearly.

In my mind, what won Benanti the Tony was “All I Need is the Girl.” She managed to (appropriately) turn the focus to Louise, so much that I barely remember Yazbeck’s performance. She’s often very affected, but her Louise was nearly perfect.

I liked Zan Charisse as Louise in the Lansbury production. I also kept thinking about what Rex Robbins might have looked like naked in "The Changing Room"; he even had in his bio he had recently taken up stripping in that show.

Yikes! Disney is closing Frozen permanently. I have no desire to ever see it, but that’s not a good sign for Broadway.

Oh no. Patsy Murin will be on the rampage. Again.

R2 Aquarius and Hair

Love singing Aquarius even though I am not good at ad lips

Broadway production of FROZEN closing

It takes a lot to fuck up a billion dollar title, but somehow, they did.

Rose should at least be passably pretty - otherwise Herbie looks like he's been hanging around for years to molest June or Louise.....or even the Newsboys.....

Plain homely Imelda clacking her dentures and rolling her eyes along with her mush mouthed singing was torture to sit through.

Imelda does not have poor diction.

I agree that Rose should not look like some sad elderly old hag. She should be age-appropriate as the mother of two daughters, and yes, reasonably attractive.

I agree.

One of my favorite Merman stories. Probably apocryphal, but:

It's opening night of Gypsy. Late that afternoon, a young assistant is walking past Ethel's dressing room and is astonished to see her inside, nonchalantly polishing her diamonds.

"My goodness, Miss Merman, it's opening night. Aren't you worried about what the critics will say?"

"To Hell with the critics, I know when I'm good."

"If they could do it as good as me, they'd be up there on the stage."

"Dyke, ya now."

"Dyke, ya Know"

Splatsy Urine is out of a job. Frozen will not reopen.

Unsurprising that Frozen's closing. It was underperforming (for a Disney musical) prior to the pandemic so there's no way it would do well with whatever's happening when Broadway reopens. This way, Disney can wait a bit and then move in either the Beauty and the Beast revival or a new show while blaming Frozen's closure on coronavirus and not the show itself.

It was chosen to go to Broadway over the much better Hunchback of Notre Dame.

Not just Benati, R183. Louise is designed to be the focus in that number.

All I Need Is the Girl and You Gotta Have the Gimick are usually cited as why it is so hard to capture Gypsy on film. The camera wants to go to where the movement is, but what makes those moments work on stage is that the audience focuses more on Louise's reaction rather than the dancers.

I remember Christa Moore in All I Need is the Girl. I cannot remember the guy at all.

Will FROZEN be retooled for London and prove a roaring success for Miss Sheridan Smith?

That's a directorial choice. Benanti has business during "his" number.

It's not "his" number. It's her number, he just has to do all the work. What's the name of the play???

[quote] Not just Benati, [R183]. Louise is designed to be the focus in that number.

NOBODY looked at Louise when I played Tulsa

That's why I put his in parentheses, dear.

Frozen was nothing more than a blatant attempt at a quick cash grab by Disney.

No, dear. You put it quotation marks. These are parentheses: (Dear!)

Kiss, kiss. Bless your heart.

R207 A cash grab, yes, not so sure about quick. Five years between the film and the show which is an eternity for something aimed at kids.

[Quote] No, dear. You put it quotation marks. These are parentheses: (Dear!)

Ha ha. So we both made a mistake.

Frozen is a huge Disney property because of its appeal to very young audiences. It just doesn't have the appeal that many other Disney films have for grownups.

And, parents of little kids who adore Frozen mostly HATE it because they've been forced to endure it being in the background of their lives for years and years as their precious offspring constantly rewatched it.

I've heard much the same about the idiotic Cars movies, mostly beloved by little boys.

Samantha Barks is playing Elsa in London, not Sheridan Smith.

R203, that "business" is part of Robbins choreography. Louise starts fantasizing that she is the girl and has small arm gestures and arches her back at the climax of Tulsa's dance.

She is upstage right of Tulsa sitting on something (a garbage can?), usually with a diffuse spot on her.

That is Robbins.

Actually I forgot she does more.

Here is Tammy Blanchard doing the same stage business Benati did.

I thought Jerome Robbins directed GYPSY.

" I think Sondheim's comment is not arguing against there being a song there. Rather it is just that the one that is there is not very skillful. And he is right."

Please. GOLDSTONE is no better or worse than TOGETHER, WHEREVER WE GO, an entertaining diversion, built around one idea and replete with word play and high spirits. For a second show on his resume, SJS did just fine.

TOGETHER is much better than GOLDSTONE.

I hate Together and have never had a problem with its being deleted from the film. (It was filmed. Footage exists. Lame staging of a weak song on a fake outdoor soundstage. Good riddance.)

For a show called Gypsy, I'm always surprised by how uninteresting most of the actresses are who play the title character. People praise Natalie Wood and Tammy Blanchard and all these other women who have played the role, but the only one who ever worked for me was Laura Benanti. For the first time, her arc made sense. You could pinpoint the exact moment where she realized what her gimmick was going to be and how she was going to make this work for her and it was genius. She got this sort of throwaway laugh during her first strip and when her line gets a laugh, she looked up, surprised and you could tell she was thinking "ok, so it's humor that I can use."

Yes, even Little Lamb worked with Benanti in the role. You also had someone who could believably stand up to a hurricane like LuPone. I remember their dressing room scene feeling volcanic like they were about to start slapping one another at any second.

I like Together. It's jaunty, and Rose isn't being a complete shrew to Louise for once. Plus, Sondheim said Cole Porter loved the triple rhyme of goes/egos/amigos. And it's better than Smile, Girls.

Gypsy could work easily on film if they embraced the medium. Have Louise daydream of what Tulsa's act would actually look like with her in some gorgeous gown coming onto the stage and dancing with him. It'd be beautiful. Stage You Gotta Get A Gimmick as a montage of Louise observing all of the strippers doing their act on stage, learning more as the days go by. Rose could even show up, look out there, be horrified and cover her daughter's eyes.

And Rose's Turn...c'mon! That should be Disneyland for a creative director on film. This is Rose's fantasy of what her act would be like. A spotlight on a blank stage would works for a theatre production, but you need something a bit more exciting for film.

Yeah, "Together" is an opportunity to show Rose is a likeable, playful light. It isn't the only opportunity, but it's important not to delete it. It also shows the trio in harmony. Louise rejected Herbie around the time of "All I Need Is the Girl" but they're more of a family with June's departure. It gives added depth to Herbie's reasons for leaving once Rose puts her daughter forward to strip.

[quote]I remember their dressing room scene feeling volcanic like they were about to start slapping one another at any second.

I'd love to see Patti and Laura slap each other around! If Broadway won't do it, perhaps a featured match on WWE Raw?

I don't understand why so many recent productions feel the need to try and remove or soften the comedy elements of Gypsy. I get that times have changed and people don't take things like child abuse and narcissism lightly, but you need the comedy and charm to not just lighten the mood, but add layers to Rose and everyone else. After all, there needs to be a reason why Rose has gone unchecked for so long. If she's charming, funny, and maybe even a little sexy, of course she's going to keep getting away with everything. If she's just a braying shrew, the show should be over by scene 2.

Which is why the world was lucky they couldn't finance the London revival with Elaine Stritch.

[quote] Yeah, "Together" is an opportunity to show Rose is a likable, playful light.

'Together' comes at the top of Act II. It also serves the purpose of helping the audience settle back in after the intermission. Once it's over, the story can resume. Similar numbers are 'Elegance' and 'Too Darn Hot', They don't really advance the story, but they make for an enjoyable interlude.

In fact, in her autobiography Merman referred to 'Something to Dance About' which came at the top of Act II of CALL ME MADAM as the kind of number that 'proved to patrons that they weren't mistaken to have come back for another act'

[quote]All I Need Is the Girl and You Gotta Have the Gimick are usually cited as why it is so hard to capture Gypsy on film. The camera wants to go to where the movement is, but what makes those moments work on stage is that the audience focuses more on Louise's reaction rather than the dancers.

Some people would say exactly the opposite is true. It's in the theater that the audience's eyes go towards where the movement is. In the 1962 movie of GYPSY, there are solo reaction shots of Natalie Wood during both of the numbers you mention, aside from her being in the frame at other moments.

[quote]I don't understand why so many recent productions feel the need to try and remove or soften the comedy elements of Gypsy.

Well. some of those productions were directed by Arthur Laurents, who completely lost his mind in his later years, one manifestation of which was that he felt ALL humor and joy had to be removed from his revivals of the shows he had co-written, in order that they be "taken more seriously." See also his horrifying revival of WEST SIDE STORY.

[quote]'Together' comes at the top of Act II. It also serves the purpose of helping the audience settle back in after the intermission. Once it's over, the story can resume. Similar numbers are 'Elegance' and 'Too Darn Hot', They don't really advance the story, but they make for an enjoyable interlude.

I agree, and I think the number is very enjoyable in itself, but I've always felt it sort of sticks out in GYPSY because it seems so much more presentational than all of the others. I realize Rose, Herbie, and Louise are supposed to be singing "Together" to each other, but somehow it always seems more like they're performing for the audience. That's not true of "Little Lamb" or "Mr. Goldstone," even if those songs are not as good in themselves.

But on film it is hard to have both the dancing and reaction simultaneously. Any scene that depends on the audience making a discovery is hard to pull off on film. Renoir seemed to be able to do that kind of thing, but few other directors can. Like you said, in the films of Gypsy they have to do reaction shots. On stage both images are there simultaneously, but on film one has to predominate.

On stage that split focus is the simplest thing to do.

You can superimpose an image onto another. Tulsa could be shown dancing across a close up of Louise's face.

What is it with this thread and all the super cheesy suggestions about how to film Gypsy? Is the director of Ice Castles on DL?

In his later years, Laurents did indeed do everything he could to de-emphasize Robbins' contributions to their shows and emphasize his own. He was an old embittered man and quite Jealous of Robbins. See the the last two revivals of Gypsy and the 2009 WSS revival.

Thank God the Robbins estate refused to allow major Equity productions of his shows that didn't include certain specified amounts of his original staging and choreography. That seems to have changed now, though.

[quote] Tulsa could be shown dancing across a close up of Louise's face.

Or, you could just show Tulsa sitting on Louise's face. That’s the subtext anyway, right?

I certainly hope so!

I think Tulsa would rather sit on Yonkers' face. Maybe Louise could react to that in close up.

R226 Actually Act II of "Gypsy" starts off with "Madame Rose's Toreadorables" (a purposely lousy number). Folks kind of forget that the show only has a few numbers in Act 2: besides that one, "Together", "Gotta Get A Gimmick", "Let Me Entertain You" montage and "Rose's Turn". That's actually a pretty small number of songs -- so the book scenes are almost of equal importance.

I've never understood this idea that Gypsy is inherently un-filmable. In the right hands, it could really be something special and cinematic. You'd have to change some things and not like the 60's version where all the changes they made didn't make any sense. Why is Rose narrating? It's not a hard story to follow. And why is "Some People" after "Small World?" It gets the movie off on the wrong foot.

[quote]I think Tulsa would rather sit on Yonkers' face. Maybe Louise could react to that in close up.

That's the more interesting Act 2. June runs away with Tulsa only to discover that he is gay. They need to dump the mother/daughter material in Act 2 and show June sitting in a dumpy studio apartment waiting for Tulsa to come home from his job as a gay go-go dancer.

For some reason the NYT has published emails between Patti and Marianne Elliott. They both sound exhausting. The only point of interest is that Patti is willing to put tasty eggs over her hatred of Trump

[quote]That's the more interesting Act 2. June runs away with Tulsa only to discover that he is gay. They need to dump the mother/daughter material in Act 2 and show June sitting in a dumpy studio apartment waiting for Tulsa to come home from his job as a gay go-go dancer.

Tulsa goes back to Oklahoma and becomes a throuple with Curly and Jud.

[quote] In his later years, Laurents did indeed do everything he could to de-emphasize Robbins' contributions to their shows and emphasize his own. He was an old embittered man and quite Jealous of Robbins.

By many accounts, Laurent was an old embittered man who was jealous of everybody when he was in his twenties.

Mary Rodgers, what happened to your promised stories?

Frozen on Bway completely lacked imagination. It was a complete money grab. glad to see it’s gone

[quote] It was a complete money grab.

Everything done by Disney is a "complete money grab." That's all. What little bit of craft they bring to the work these days, it is all in service of a complete money grab. No art. Fugheddaboudit.

[quote] Mary Rodgers, what happened to your promised stories?

They went to the grave when she did.

[quote]Tulsa goes back to Oklahoma and becomes a throuple with Curly and Jud.

Make that a foursome!

IMO, Gypsy/Louise should've been a non-singing part, a la Man in Chair in THE DROWSY CHAPERONE. We are constantly told she can't sing for shit, so why have her sing and be portrayed by musical theater actresses? I always smirk when I see a production and Louise begins to sing beautifully. She should only sing (as a child) in the opening scene, when auditioning with June. Then not again, until she reprises the exact same song as a young woman but for a striptease, instead. I think it would add more depth and sympathy to her character when you notice at the beginning and at the end that Gypsy/Louise can't sing, but unlike the opening scene, she has overcome her shyness and made her non-singing voice work for her. I don't know if I'm making sense, but I don't now how else to explain it.

So literal minded. Fuck.

“Leona doesn’t sing”

Significant Other was great as a Zoom production. I remember people being polarized about it when it was done on stage - why was that?

"I'm in pursuit of happiness...."

Was Sondheim really furious when he found out that the melody of "You'll Never Get Away from Me" was a pre-existing Styne tune from the TV musical Ruggles of Red Gap or is that just legend? How did Sondheim and Styne generally work? Words first or music first? Likewise Bernstein and Sondheim on WSS? With Rodgers and Hart, it was generally music first and then the lyrics yet with Rodgers and Hammerstein it was generally lyrics first and then the music. Yet there are known exceptions in both cases.

Allegedly Hammerstein spent days struggling over the lyrics of Bali Hai and then Rodgers set then to music in music in 20 minutes after dinner the day he got them.

[quote] Words first or music first?

Generally, the contract

I have no idea what you are talking about.

In a film, you could superimpose an adult singing Louise over the pained face of the gawky Louise. That way you could keep the numbers and Louise would be a non-singer like R245 suggests.

Just found this on youtube. Sadly no sound

R245, you can't explain your point because there is no substantive point. What you are driving at is far to literal a look at what the characters are doing in GYPSY. Rose would not be singing in a Chinese Restaurant or in her kitchen. Herbie would not be singing in the desert. June would not be singing in Mr. Grantzinger's office. The three strippers would save their singing and dancing for the stage, and not a dressing room. It's endless.

Either it's a musical, or it isn't. If it is, anyone can sing. The question then is when do they sing and what do they sing about? THE DROWSY CHAPERONE is not a guide because it's a farce, a lightweight piece of fluff. And GYPSY is not.

Glad you mentioned SIGNIFICANT OTHER, R248. I didn't catch it 5 years ago at the Roundabout but watched online last night.

I disliked about 2/3 of it: I was irritated by Gideon Glick and his character, by the whole concept of this gay man defining his life by the straight women around him, by what seemed like a reflexive dislike for other gay men and gay life in general. But I was emotionally involved by the end and found the final scenes very moving.

Glad to have seen it. What do we know of Joshua Harmon and his other plays?

[Quote] what seemed like a reflexive dislike for other gay men and gay life in general.

Was DataLounge mentioned?

I think Patti would do good in a revival of BAJOUR! playing the Chita Rivera role.

It's also a musical that hasn't been updated since it debuted on Broadway.

R245 are you aspie?

Have any Broadway baes started Only Fans yet? It's one thing if you were a lead in several Broadway shows. You might have a nice cushion, but ensemble members are going to be hurting soon and the absolute earliest they're likely to get back to work is Spring 2021. And even then, who knows how many of their shows will actually reopen.

My Love Parade

The Chita character in BAJOUR has to be of marriageable age. And has to dance up a storm. And be sexy.

Three strikes and Patti is out. Let her play the Mae Questel role.

He's one of the best of the "new" playwrights out there, R255. Strong characters, engaging stories, witty and sharp when he needs to be, and has a point of view, something to say. Writes in a more commercial style than a lot of the NYC writers who have been nurtured by the NFP system. Bad Jews and Admissions both received their share of good reviews. He also did Skintight with Idina Menzel.

Patti has already said that Company was her last Broadway musical. I think once she did Gypsy, she was satisfied that she no longer had anything to prove.

Joyful carefree. End of an era for more than 15 years

"then Rodgers set then to music in music in 20 minutes after dinner the day he got them."

That's apocryphal of course. You can bet R&H had plenty of a priori discussions about the number, including its title. So when the former sat down to actually work on the song, he already had tons of musical ideas floating around his cranium. After that, it was probably just a matter of tailoring them to the lyric. But there was undoubtedly a backlog of unconscious work done before the anecdotal 20 minutes.

Sometimes I’m Happy (Sometimes I’m Blue)

One more from R&H. A Connecticut Yankee. Sorry, wanted to bring something else here. 20s was decade of parties jazz etc. Wonderful happy sound

[quote]You can bet R&H had plenty of a priori discussions about the number

Most definitely. In R&H musicals, there are songs that are full blown musical theater numbers, but then they try to put in one or two songs that give flavor to the location they are writing about.

Bali Hai is obviously a nod to the South Pacific. It's not a musical theater song.

this was slog to get through

Even if Rodgers was able to set "Bali Hai" in 20 minutes, I think that actually says a great deal about how strong the lyric was; it provided a very strong road map for Rodgers to follow.

What was Cole Porter's quote about Rodgers? "The man PEES melody." Rodgers was incredibly disciplined, but yes, he could work very quickly.

Larry Hart was not disciplined, but could be incredibly quick. Was it "Bewitched Bothered & Bewildered" that he wrote on the back of an envelope, standing up at the piano?

Taking nothing from Rodgers' accomplishment, he knew in advance the song was to be about... Bali H'ai. He did have a big head start on that lyric. Bali H'ai... Bali H'ai... Bali H'aiiiiiiiiiiiii.

Does Telly Leung have an OnlyFans page yet?

This weekend would have been when the Ninth Avenue Food Festival would have happened. I have fond memories of those chorus boys in their flip flopped feets milling about, searching for sugar daddies as they lick on their soft serves.

Does Telly Leung have an OnlyFans page yet?

This weekend would have been when the Ninth Avenue Food Festival would have happened. I have fond memories of those chorus boys in their flip flopped feets milling about, searching for sugar daddies as they lick on their soft serves.

Bali Ha'i is also the first notes of the song that one hears at the beginning of the overture. It's an important song and works to advance the plot for Bloody Mary to sing to get Lieutenant Cable to want to get over to the island to meet her daughter Liat. The island's mystery and exotic nature and being forbidden to most sailors also works in a way to show that folks like Nellie are like "fish out of water" in this South Pacific paradise when they meet its inhabitants like de Becque and Bloody Mary. It's a gorgeous song, too, and Juanita Hall's version is pretty glorious on the OCR.

R274 Some of those soft serves are the sugar daddies!

Jeanette & Binnie!

Wasn't War Paint supposed to be Patti's musical swan song?

Patti and Bernadette should do a production of Baby Jane. It would be the great cap in both of their crowns. And box office would be through the fucking roof. Two legends in their first appearance together?

Bernadette could do a good Bette, and Patti loves her pathos, she'd be a great Joan.

Just...Binnie.

And a tip o' the hat to Franz Waxman. Thanks, Franz!

R278 It was but the Marianne came along. Bette is Patti’s all time favorite movie star. She might want to play Bette’s role.

Bernadette's baby voice would be great for Baby Jane. Plus Patti would be great groveling (and trying to get in a song) while on the floor crawling to get to the phone to get help.

Betty Buckley would make more sense as the invalid sister in "... Baby Jane." Patti and Bernie are both Janes.

R277 and R279 wow. Again, back then people im Hollywood knew how to make movies.

Betty doesn't have much voice left, based on those Dolly videos, unfortunately.

[quote]It's a gorgeous song, too, and Juanita Hall's version is pretty glorious on the OCR. ,

And yet, at Richard Rodgers' request, Juanita Hall's singing was dubbed by Muriel Smith, who played Bloody Mary in London, for the movie version of "South Pacific." That must have stung.

Per the NYTimes article on Frozen closing, Disney is also working on new stage adaptations of Beauty and the Beast, The Jungle Book, Hercules and Aida and developing Bedknobs and Broomsticks and The Princess Bride.

Did Hall record the song for the movie?

Binnie interview. If you zip past the commercials in the middle, she lops 10 years off her age.

R284 Try watching "Love Me Tonight" if you ever want to see one of the greatest of all musicals with Jeanette and Chevalier.

"The Love Parade" from 1929 (!) also has some great sequences, one of which is the first meeting of McDonald and Chevalier; he has a reputation as a big ladies man, and she is the queen. She's all haughty with him at first, and yet you see she's all excited powdering her face and getting ready for his arrival. She then finally flirts with him. It was McDonald's first film after she had done Broadway, and she totally held her own again star billed Chevalier. Here's a section of that sequence when they get down to flirting (complete with a voyeur looking in on them!).

[quote]Did Hall record the song for the movie?

See R286.

Have Hall's vocals survived? (I don't mean the OBC). There used to a lostvocals channel on YouTube.

I hope that guy who made those lost vocals is all right. I think I heard him singing yeas ago at the Townhouse. He was a nice and cute guy.

Was this him?

That was charming, R290. I've never gotten Chevalier's appeal but he and McDonald have a fun, naturalistic rapport that doesn't feel like something out of the 1930s.

Part of it is that they appear to be singing live on film over instrumental tracks and not lip-synching. I didn't think this practice was that common in Hollywood by that point.

No, I don't believe so. He was younger, no facial hair and more James Marsden kind of cuter. The voice was reasonably nice.

[quote]What was Cole Porter's quote about Rodgers? "The man PEES melody."

Close but no cigar. It was Noël Coward who said "That man [Rodgers] just pees melody," although some sources attribute the remark to Rodgers himself.

Dear GOD, R294.

[Quote] make it STOP.

I'll plant MY own rainbow!

Agree about Chevalier. Always smarmy. Practically ruins Gigi for me.

"I'll Plant My Own Tree" is such an earthbound metaphor.

Summer The Donna Summer Musical's US tour is the next production to end due to Coronavirus. Cast was told yesterday that it's done.

Yeah, disco will be forgotten by 2021.

Thanks R294. Always a pleasure to see this best worst rendition ever of Over the Rainbow. Such emoting...AND animation too!

Speaking of "I'll Plant My Own Tree"....

What about a Dory Previn jukebox musical? What shall we call it? And what 3 singing actresses will play different aspects of Dory?

"Mia Farrow" will have a cameo ("Beware of Young Girls") but the part has Best Featured Tony Nom written all over it!

[quote]This weekend would have been when the Ninth Avenue Food Festival

And good riddance, I say! This used to be a great food festival. Then about 8-10 years ago, it just became a collection of food you can get at every other street festival. Same with San Gennaro Festival. We used to have great street festivals in NYC!

I hate NYC street festivals. Cheap sweat socks, indigestible food, noise and trash. What's the point?

Polyester bras!

Dory Previn was a great storyteller through her songs, and they would work well to present a (very depressing) narrative.

[quote]"The Love Parade" from 1929 (!) also has some great sequences.

Hmph! It ain't no "Dueling Cavalier!"

[quote]Broadway baes

I want one! How can I get a Broadway BAE?

r267 Why is the title in English and Spanish?

R290 Thanks for the tip. Wondeful video. Absolutely lovely

The TOOTSIE tour (that was recently converted to non-equity) will also be cancelled. They just cancelled the fall dates, and the rest of the presenters are bailing.

What's next R287 - Spin & Marty The Musical?

R300, a young hot smarmy man is a delight. And old fat smarmy man, on the other hand....

[Quote] And old fat smarmy man, on the other hand....

is a president?

I can't believe the producers of TOOTSIE really believed they were going to make their money back on tour. This may have been a mercy killing.

[quote]What about a Dory Previn jukebox musical? What shall we call it?

What shall we call it? What about "Dead on Arrival"?

Is "Finding Dory" taken?

"You're Gonna Hear From Me"!

I want a Kirsty MacColl jukebox musical!

Incidentally, MacColl's grisly death still makes me sad and shiver. I can't imagine the survivor's guilt her sons must have. I lost my mom to cancer at a young age and I blamed myself for many years.

[quote]By the mid-1960s, (Dory) Previn's husband had become a classical music conductor, touring worldwide, but her morbid fear of air travel kept her from joining him. In 1965 she suffered a psychiatric breakdown for which she was briefly hospitalized, but continued to write songs with her husband, including "You're Gonna Hear from Me", recorded by Frank Sinatra, and began to use the name Dory Previn professionally. In 1967, they wrote five songs for the movie Valley of the Dolls. The soundtrack album spent six months on the charts, and Dionne Warwick had a pop hit with her version of the theme song.... While in London he began an affair with 23-year-old actress Mia Farrow, who was working on the film A Dandy in Aspic. In 1969 Dory Previn discovered that Farrow had become pregnant by her husband, which led to their separation. Their divorce became final in July 1970. André Previn subsequently married Farrow. The betrayal led to Previn being hospitalized again, where she was treated with electroconvulsive therapy.

What a story! Everything but the bloodhounds snappin' at her rear end.

Mia Farrow, homewrecker and supporter of pedophiles and rapists. Why do people even listen to her?

Those lemon haired ladies...

Beware of young girls...

[quote]Agree about Chevalier. Always smarmy. Practically ruins Gigi for me.

His rendition of "Thank Heaven for Little Girls," which borders on lascivious, gives me the creeps when I see it now.

Grease singalong will replace Tony Awards broadcast.

I wonder if the cast of the movie will reunite for it!

[quote] His rendition of "Thank Heaven for Little could sinGirls," which borders on lascivious, gives me the creeps when I see it now.

That's why the number was transferred to the Aunts in the last Broadway revival.

But I think the whole discussion is ridiculous. There are many examples of straight men loving their daughters who could sing about them. Nor all love is lascivious.

Hope this brightens your day as much as it did mine!

PS -I've slept with one of the men in this video, seen another one naked, and shared a dining room table on a cruise with a third.

[quote]I wonder if the cast of the movie will reunite for it!

I won't be there.

[quote]There are many examples of straight men loving their daughters who could sing about them. Nor all love is lascivious.

Hear, hear!

[quote]But I think the whole discussion is ridiculous. There are many examples of straight men loving their daughters who could sing about them. Nor all love is lascivious.

Not ridiculous at all. Chevalier is not singing about his daughters, for one thing, so it's a false equivalency. And his usual smarminess makes him seem almost leering in this number. The song was always smarmy as performed by Chevalier. A different actor might have been able to pull it off. The lyrics also don't help. They don't come off as a paean to the inherent charms of little girls. He's thanking heaven for them because they "get bigger every day" and will ultimately attract the attentions of men.

Thank Heaven for Little Girls is not about paternal love. The lyrics make it pretty clear that the singer is thanking heaven for little girls because they eventually grow up to be hot.

"Thank Heaven for Little Girls" always reminds me of this hilarious scene:

FYI: In the movie, 14-year-old Katharine Heigl plays his daughter on vacation with him, who tells everyone that he is her sugar daddy in order to make a local boy jealous.

sigh.

Correct me eldergays if my memory is wrong, but this song existed for approx 25 years as a harmless ditty until Buck Henry covered it on SNL circa 1980? Forever altered in pop culture...

It was a gentler, stupider time r339.

[quote]I wonder if the cast of the movie will reunite for it!

Nobody will recognize Stockard Channing since she's had so many facelifts.

Yeah, right.

Haven't here already been two musical adaptations of that movie? One was called SUGAR and the other retained the film's original title.

Sugar and Some Like It Hot are the same musical--with a retitling

[quote]Disney is also working on new stage adaptations of Beauty and the Beast, The Jungle Book, Hercules and Aida and developing Bedknobs and Broomsticks and The Princess Bride.

HERCULES was done at the Delacorte in Central Park last summer, though I don't imagine it was considered to be in its final form at that point. I assume that when and if it goes further, Disney will again make a point of casting an African-American in the title role. When the show was done in the park, they announced ahead of time that they specifically planned to cast an African-American in the part, though how that can be legal is beyond me. I expect it's NOT legal, but nobody chose to challenge them, for obvious reasons.

Regarding Juanita Hall in the movie of SOUTH PACIFIC, I have never heard that she recorded her songs for the soundtrack before it was decided to dub her. I'm almost certain that decision was made ahead of time. They SHOULD have let her do her own singing, as she had done in the show, because Muriel Smith's voice sounds too "trained." (She was the original Carmen Jones on Broadway.)

How is it illegal? "Our concept involves a black Hercules."

The kind of beauty...

Liberals are always the first to notice people's skin color and make it an issue. And they call everyone else who isn't left-of-center a racist. Hypocrites.

Oh, GOD, please don't. Please? This thread is a refuge. Must we have another thread in which eldergays denounce "color blind casting" and tell us how in their day there never would have been a black Freddy Eynsford-Hill.

[quote]How is it illegal? "Our concept involves a black Hercules."

Because I'm almost positive that it's illegal to specify a particular race of actor that you're looking for, especially in a case like this, where the character is not of that race. Can you imagine if they did a show with a major black character, like Aida (who is Ethiopian) and then issued a casting notice saying their "concept" of the show involved casting an Asian performer -- or a Caucasian performer?

How do we know the race of the character? Isn't Hercules mythical?

IF the authors decide that Heracles is black, he is a black character.

[quote]I assume that when and if it goes further

Will it go the distance?

r345 Ironic that your first paragraph talks about casting an African-American in a traditionally white role, while your second is about an African-American being cast as a Polynesian over 60 years ago.

Is there a live action Hercules set to film? I heard talk that British girl group Little Mix might have been tapped to play the muses. None of them are black. A couple look mixed.

[Quote] an African-American being cast as a Polynesian over 60 years ago.

That's fine. Only whiteness needs to be protected.

Of course, the far-left liberals (like their far-right conservative counterparts) are tone-deaf and hypocrites. It's amazing how similar both extremists are (e.g., hateful, racist, militant, black-and-white thinkers), yet they would kill each other for their cause. That's why I consider myself a centrist now. We need balance. Going to far-left or far-right is always disastrous and just creates more strife.

Fascinating.

[quote] Because I'm almost positive that it's illegal to specify a particular race of actor that you're looking for, especially in a case like this, where the character is not of that race.

You should, please, come up with a citation for that. You won't be able to do so, because you are wrong. While race is not generally a legally permissible criteria in most hiring, the law anticipates that sometimes it is reasonable to consider race and exceptions are provided for things like casting. The law is going to find that a white soprano was illegally treated if she loses the role of Bess to a black soprano. If the producer or director has a specific need to fulfill his or her artistic vision, and can credibly defend that choice, if challenged, the law is not going to stand in the way.

There's no need for another musical version of Some Like it Hot. Sugar is is fine and fun if done right. I saw a great national tour in the early 2000s at NJPAC with Tony Curtis in the Joe E. Brown role. He brought down the house with the final line, taken directly from the film, "Well, nobody's perfect."

Sugar can currently be licensed under its original title or as Some Like It Hot just as Here's Love can now be licensed under its original title or as Miracle on 34th Street and The Gay Life can be licensed as The High Life.

We need a stage version of "O Brother, Where Art Thou?"

August Wilson believed colour blind casting was idiotic, and limiting.

Oh, I feel like watching Kay Pruitt again.

[quote]August Wilson believed colour blind casting was idiotic, and limiting.

And yet, he stipulates that when a theater company wants to produce one of his plays that they make every effort to hire a black director. Clinton Turner Davis made his career on directing "Fences" all over the world. Same direction, same set design. He was the black Baayork Lee.

R364 So much stupid.

[quote]Ironic that your first paragraph talks about casting an African-American in a traditionally white role, while your second is about an African-American being cast as a Polynesian over 60 years ago.

That didn't occur to me, but I agree with you that it's ironic. I only found out very belatedly that Juanita Hall was African-American, as I knew her from her roles in SOUTH PACIFIC and FLOWER DRUM SONG. Of course, when those shows were written, there were probably even fewer Asians involved in theater (and movie) than there were African-Americans, especially Asians who had training or experience as singers of Broadway-style music, so that's probably one reason why Hall got the part rather than Anna May Wong or someone like that.

"Bali Hai is obviously a nod to the South Pacific. It's not a musical theater song."

Of course it's a musical theatre song, musically and dramatically, and one of the greatest. True, its melody is sinuous and chromatic, suggesting the undulating sensuality of the tropics and steel-pedal guitars. But its form is that of a foxtrot, a staple of musical theatre from the 20s. Its function in the show is the strongest possible--to seduce Cable into the pleasures of the island, so Bloody Mary can hook him up with her daughter.

"He's thanking heaven for them because they "get bigger every day" and will ultimately attract the attentions of men."

Yes, of course. As WOMEN--Duh! And there is nothing whatsoever leering about Chevalier--charming, sure, seductive, absolutely, but not leering.

Just what we need--more infantile nonsense to clutter up our stages.

Loretta Ables Sayre was amazing in the LCT South Pacific. I know she may not be a typical 'type' for your everyday musical theatre role, but it seems such a shame that was her sole Broadway credit.

Just as I said in R275 about "Bali Ha'i", but I appreciate your views too.

I think a musical based on Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? is actually a really good idea even though I normally don't like movie-to-stage adaptations. And Bernadette would be fan-TAS-tic as Baby Jane. Someone make that happen right now!!!

There is already a Baby Jane musical. I saw it in Houston, about 20 years ago, with Millicent Martin as Jane. It. Was. Terrible.

Obviously not everyone finds Maurice Chevalier as charming and seductive as R367 does.

R351 The Ancient Greeks and Romans were not African and they certainly did not visualize their Gods and demigods that way. You would take an issue if someone decided to portray African Gods or South American Gods as white or Asian or whatever.

R359 Yeah, right.

Anyway, when the recent Netflix film THE HIGHWAYMEN needed people to converge on Bonnie and CLyde's car at the end of the film, they weren't allowed to call for 'only white' extras, even though historically there were only white people surrounding the car. That's why the film looks incongruous at the end with all those black people all around the car.

Black people need to stop pretending they are victims still in Hollywood and Broadway. They are being aided by (mainly white) women in positions of power who have a white savior complex.

[Quote] The Ancient Greeks and Romans were not African and they certainly did not visualize their Gods and demigods that way.

I doubt they visualised women like Mart Testa and Jackie Hoffman as muses either, but those women got the fucking part(s). Cry me a river.

*Mary Testa

Unfortunate that the DL does not allow enough FFs for this thread.

The whole point of theatre is to show you reality from a different point of view, which is why color blind casting makes complete sense on this format.

Movies would be harder because of the format. TV does it a lot, particularly Disney TV, which often has parents and kids of different races without making excuses.

R376 So you'll be fine with South American or Native American or Aboriginal gods being portrayed as white or other? Once again, you prove that far-left liberals are hypocrites.

Personally, I stopped being a liberal last year. They have become too cynical, pessimistic, anti-male, and anti-America for my tastes. All they see is gloom and doom everywhere. And they view minorities and women as perpetual victims.

Perhaps you should start a thread (and not commandeer this one).

"IF the authors decide that Heracles is black, he is a black character."

Or just go back to Free Republic.

Not sure how anyone got the idea that the GIGI Broadway musical assigned "Thank Heaven" to the aunts. It was sung by Alfred Drake on my recording.

[Quote] Not sure how anyone got the idea that the GIGI Broadway musical assigned "Thank Heaven" to the aunts. It was sung by Alfred Drake on my recording.

There was a revival not so long ago, with Vanessa Hudgens.

I thought it was a smart change in the revival, actually. Mamita sang it about the delight of raising Gigi and watching her grow up, while Aunt Alicia is scheming to fix her protege up with the eligible Gaston. There were other problems, but the handling of that number was not one.

R373, if the author decided the character is black--the character is black no matter what the myth is.

Also, the concept of skin color determining race did not really exist in the ancient world. There are few descriptions of skin color at that time. So was Hannibal black or fair? No one thought to mention. St. Augustine? Even he never reference his skin color. Cleopatra?

If the Greeks and Romans did not have the same racial categories as us, they could not classify figures according to concepts they did not have.

How did August Wilson become the person you cannot criticise? Like a Mother Teresa of theater.

He avoided going to the theater, yet he is quoted on how theater should be practiced. He was notoriously unsupportive of black theater (limiting premieres to institutions with white audiences) but is seen an an authority on black theater. And his plays are dull as shit using the same tired tropes over and over. And running water on stage is not so exciting that it deserves to be put into script after script.

It's been tried, r370...

Victoria Clark and Dee Hoty are both very fine performers. If that can't put over that reassignment of the song, then probably no one else can do it, either. And they didn't. The attempt to desexify a song that wasn't sexualizing little girls in the first place renders it almost pointless. The song is about romantic love between an adult man and adult woman. To conclude that the song is inappropriate when sung by Honore, one has to ignore 50% of the lyrics. The entire song is about the young women they will one day become.

If anyone thinks anything is inappropriate or untoward about the way "Thank Heaven for Little Girls" is presented in the film GIGI, then it's time for them to get to therapy. They are the ones who are injecting sexualization of young girls into a song that contains none. They are the ones fostering the sexualization of young girls. They are the sick ones endangering young girls by advancing the image of them as sex objects.

Honore does not do that. Obviously. If you don't see that, you're the one with the problem.

No one needs to foster the sexualization of girls. It's innate, sadly.

Innate in some viewers. Not in the girls. They will get to their sexuality in their own time and should be left alone to do so. They should not be made fodder for pervs, SJWs, clerics, or Women's Studies academics.

A girl need only walk in public, or take public transport, to feel like she's fodder.

Okay, but to the degree that's true, she doesn't need more people finding more ways to sexualize her. Leave the kids alone. Everyone. Leave them alone. They are not topics for academic theory or politicization.

[quote]If anyone thinks anything is inappropriate or untoward about the way "Thank Heaven for Little Girls" is presented in the film GIGI, then it's time for them to get to therapy.

MARY!

Has R391 ever paid attention to the lyrics?

They grow up in The most delightful way.

(Meaning they become attractive women)

Those little eyes So helpless and appealing When they were flashing Send you crashing Through the ceiling

(These are terms usually used to describe romantic love)

Without them What would little boys do

(Does R391 think this is about little boys asking little girls to join their softball team?)

And Chevalier is not "leering" he is "seductive?"

What would the difference be?

Just because someone wrote a bad adaptation of a piece doesn't mean that someone else can't try to do a better one re: "Baby Jane". Like there are two Phantoms, there was another "La Boheme" before the Puccini one became more famous, etc.

I never understood this unnecessary brouhaha. He doesn’t want to fuck the little girls. He looks at little girls with amusement, pointing out that they grow up to be women, who he wants to fuck.

People are uncomfortable with any sexuality involving children. But in past times, it was not such a taboo. As long as you did not have sex with kids, one could view them sexually.

And the discomfort makes people twist themselves into pretzels trying to deny any sexual content in material about children.

By this point, I doubt the writers of that BABY JANE musical still hold the rights to the property. They’re usually required to obtain a first-class production (meaning, legally, Broadway or West End or an Equity tour) within a one or two year period if they want to fuse the rights.

So the rights are probably available. Technically, anyway.

It's interesting that the song "Thank Heaven For Little Girls" is so popular that they left it in the show. Think of the non-politically correct songs that recent musicals have cut. "I'm An Indian Too" from Annie Get Your Gun. "Happy Talk" from South Pacific.

When has “Happy Talk” been cut?

[quote]When has “Happy Talk” been cut?

Was it cut for the Glenn Close tv version? It was a huge discussion several years ago. The feeling was that the lyrics made fun of the woman's accent.

[quote] As long as you did not have sex with kids, one could view them sexually.

But Honore doesn't. Very clearly, his interest is in adult females, the women who have grown up in the most delightful way.

The only people viewing these children sexually are the pervs in the audience. Grow up.

This is what pandemics do: Drive us to arguments of Gigi, one of the dumbest film musicals and worst stage musicals (twice) ever. I hate pandemics.

Patti and Bernadette are too busy workshopping the new musical Side Show: The Later Years. It's about when the Hilton Sisters quit show biz and worked as a cashier in a grocery store.

There's a very intense scene when they are talking about wages. The store manager only wants to pay them one wage but the Hilton Sisters think they should be paid two. It's very pertinent to today's audiences. When Patti did her Zoom interview, she talked about women being paid 1/2 as much as men.

So tell me again why it's a good idea to take "Thank Heaven for Little Girls" from Honore and assign it to the two women who are training Gigi to be a whore? "Thank Heaven for Little Meal Tickets."

No thanks.

I believe one cashiered and one bagged, r408.

A bit of joy from Dame Julie...

[quote]The whole point of theatre is to show you reality from a different point of view, which is why color blind casting makes complete sense on this format. Movies would be harder because of the format. TV does it a lot, particularly Disney TV, which often has parents and kids of different races without making excuses.

I agree with the "different point of view" thing, but if that were the real reason for color-blind casting, it would work both ways. I don't understand your comment about the "format," especially not why you think film is such a different "format" from TV.

R391, I'm the first person to rail against over-aggressive political correctness, but I think you're being disingenuous. In the film of GIGI, Chevalier as Honore sings "Thank Heaven for Little Girls" while sitting in a park surrounded by very young women (and others). Just before he starts singing, a VERY young girl -- about five or so -- walks by him, which causes him to say "How adorable they are." And then he launches into a sing in which he thanks heaven for little girls, with "those little eyes so helpless and appealing," specifically because they will soon be hot, sexual young women. He's not saying he wants to have sex with that little girl right now, but it's a very queasy sort of advance sexual interest in the woman she will become. The truth is that such a song was completely acceptable in the late 1950s, and no one thought twice about it, but nowadays many people are made very uncomfortable by that kind of phrasing, and I think rightly so. Can you imagine an adult gay man watching a bunch of pre-adolescent boys playing, then turning to a friend or to one of their parents and saying, "They are so cute, and just imagine how hot they're going to be in a few years!" True, that's not the same as saying "I want to do one of those kids right now," but it's still at least a little inappropriate.

[quote]So tell me again why it's a good idea to take "Thank Heaven for Little Girls" from Honore and assign it to the two women who are training Gigi to be a whore?

Excellent question. GIGI is about a courtesan in training, a common situation in French culture at that time. It was also common practice, one might say tradition, in that country back then for older men to hook up romantically and sexually with VERY young women, whether through marriage or some other type of "arrangement." We see this in lots of literature from the period, including the works that inspired the musicals FANNY and CARNIVAL. But people change and societies change, so it's not at all surprising that behavior that was perfectly acceptable and taken for granted in France in the 19th century might be considered unacceptable and offensive in other societies in later years, and maybe even in the same country in later years.

Thank you, R412 for stating things so clearly.

I can understand why someone may want to argue against what the lyrics and dramatic context clearly state. But it is tiresome. So you, R412, are a welcome relief.

(Though how much do you want to bet someone shows up to say that courtesans did not have sex with their benefactors.)

[Quote] it would work both ways.

How many white men have played Othello? Hm? Hmmm?

I saw a high school production of Ragtime done with an all-white cast.

[quote]How many white men have played Othello? Hm? Hmmm?

Olivier, for one, and he even adapted the stage production into a 1965 film, with Maggie Smith as Desdemona.

[quote]I can understand why someone may want to argue against what the lyrics and dramatic context clearly state.

But they don't. And that's the point. The sexifying is being added by dirty minds schooled to see this everywhere they look. When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

The Divine Sarah...

Part of the issue with that Baby Jane musical is that they used the common workaround of basing it on the novel (which was probably much cheaper to option) when the fame of the cultural love for the piece rests on the dialogue written in the screenplay, which they couldn't use. Similar to All About Eve/Applause, which was technically based on Mary Orr's story, though didn't they eventually work something out with the studio for some use of the screenplay after all (there is a song called "Fasten Your Seat Belts").

One of the smart things about The Addams Family musical was to option that song and get it out of the way right at the top. Give people the musical moment they wanted and get the audience on your side right off the bat.

Now that so many studios have stage arms developing their hits into musicals, this Baby Jane situation would be less likely to happen today. The studio would cooperate or it wouldn't. Warner Brothers would commission it and pick the writers they thought would give them the best result.

Has anyone ever tried to musicalize MILDRED PIERCE? I think it could make a great book musical.

It would have to be based on the classic film. As Todd Hayne's well-meant but tedious miniseries showed, the Cain novel is inferior to the screenplay adaptation.

This caftan called...Omar.

There's an opera of Postman, r421.

Baby Jane does seem like a perfect idea for a musical. Not one but two wonderful roles for grand Broadway divas, most of it takes place in one house, all the family drama and vaudeville background - it makes sense.

It'd need a really smart team, though.

Does anyone know why there wasn't an OBC recording of TIMBUKTU? I know wasn't a massive success, but shows with much shorter runs have had recordings made.

I now very much need to hear Bernadette say, "But you are, Blanche! You ARE in that chair!" And she knows all about being a cute child star. There also aren't tons of characters so it wouldn't have to be a big, expensive, cast. The Victor Buono role is also a good featured role as well and the maid role could be beefed up as well.

Brooks Ashmankas IS Victor Buono.

Gregory Jbara as Victor Buono

What about Vicki Clark as Joan? The role needs someone dignified.

Rebecca Luker for the Blanche role, cause, you know. But it would be a great final opportunity for her.

The actress has to be comfortable crawling out of that chair during a big sequence when she tries to telephone help. But I see your point otherwise.

R389 All art is subjective but when you make a blanket statement like "August Wilson is boring" then you've just told me a lot about yourself.

You're Boring As Fuck.

"Has [R391] ever paid attention to the lyrics?"

And, r397, you'd be better off going back to the source than misquoting lyrics gleaned from the internet:

"They grow up in The most delightful way. (Meaning they become attractive women) Those little eyes So helpless and appealing When they were flashing Send you crashing Through the ceiling..."

The lyric actually is: Those little eyes so helpless and appealing/ONE DAY will flash and send you crashing through the ceiling.... Which indeed is about adult romantic love, and the whole point of the song, since it sets up the story to come. AND makes more sense.

"Without them What would little boys do (Does [R391] think this is about little boys asking little girls to join their softball team?)"

No it's about little boys and little girls exchanging cards and candy hearts on Valentine's Day in anticipation of the love and sexual attraction they will experience as adolescents and adults.

"And Chevalier is not "leering" he is "seductive?" What would the difference be?"

Leer: look or gaze in an unpleasant, malicious, or lascivious way. Seductive: tempting and attractive; enticing.

And, IMHO, GIGI Is one of the greatest musicals, period.

Gigi is one of the dullest pieces of shit ever foisted on the public.

Gigi killed Agnes Moorehead!

East-West Players in LA does all- or mostly Asian casts. I saw their "Mamma Mia," and I had tickets for "Assassins," which was a COVID casualty.

I saw a high school production of "Curtains" in which 80% of the cast was Asian.

What about Millie?

Well done, R433!

I hope the resident Stage Censors never have their way over "Le Sacre de Printemps." It is bad enough that they feel justified in censoring "Gigi."

"Gigi is one of the dullest pieces of shit ever foisted on the public."

Pro-veen-chuls!

[quote]How many white men have played Othello? Hm? Hmmm?

Yes, but that was then and this is now. I really think it's considered completely unacceptable for a white man to play Othello in this day and age. And in the case of one major exception, the opera OTELLO, I know that the Met Opera for the past several years has decreed that the white men cast in the role may not wear any makeup resembling blackface whatsoever.

[quote]The sexifying is being added by dirty minds schooled to see this everywhere they look. When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Not true, the sex is definitely in the lyrics of "Thank Heaven for Little Girls." The only question is whether or not one thinks it's acceptable or creepy for a grown man to be singing, in the presence of VERY young girls, about how strongly attracted he will be to them when they get older. And I think that's very much a matter of opinion.

[quote]IMHO, GIGI Is one of the greatest musicals, period.

I think there's much greatness in it, but also much that doesn't work and/or now seems terribly dated and off-putting. I've always HATED that bit about the Eva Gabor character's half-hearted, multiple attempts at suicide when a boyfriend leaves her, and for me, the song "I'm Glad I'm Not Young Anymore" just does not work for the Chevalier character. There he is singing about how happy he is that now can "sit here in the shade, with none of the woes of man and maid," yet in other scenes we see and hear about him still dating lots of women. And, guess what? They're all MUCH younger than him. I do sense a theme here....

Too many people choosing too many things to get offended about when public policies are more and more becoming matters of life and death.

Chevalier doesn't want to fuck little girls, for Chrissake. He wantt to bang the later version when they've grown tits and ass.

[quote]the Eva Gabor character's half-hearted, multiple attempts at suicide when a boyfriend leaves her

I don't know how many times I've seen Gigi, and I don't recall Eva Gabor's character attempting suicide.

I love GIGI. I think it's extremely well made and well played. I don't find "sex" in Thank Heavens for Little Girls at all, myself. He's clearly not attracted to little girls, but to the young women they grow up to be. I mean, the lyric says that very thing. The little girls are for the little boys, which the lyric also states.

A man's "cinq à sept" relations were always with a mistress, a demimondaine younger than one's wife. "I'm Glad I'm Not Young Anymore" is perfectly understandable. Honoré is referring to love, or affairs of the heart. That's what's got Gaston in such a state. That's also what Honoré is fully beyond. He loves to have a lovely young woman on his arm, but he is well beyond the days of love affairs and cinq à sept relationships.

[quote] What about Vicki Clark as Joan?

Vicki Clark for the Victor Buono role.

Color blind casting won’t work in cases where the play is specifically about being a specific race. August Wilson’s plays or Porgy and Bess would just seem silly.

However, play about white people have always assumed that all of America should act this way, which is why changing to minority actors isn’t often much of a stretch. Even musicals based on historical people like, say Gypsy, could be played by minority performers because no one even remembers the actually people anymore.

As for Otello, it’s the perfect example of color blind casting. Otello is a moor, a dark Arab. African Americans have cooped the role by claiming he’s African black. He’s not.

Larry Olivier was A-rab?

R368 Loretta Ables Sayre has played the Bloody Mary role in several other productions. She's also a big deal here in Hawaii and directs as well as acts in lots of shows. That said, she's become a bit of a Googie Gomez joke for being cast in roles that are totally wrong for her, just because she's a name. For example, she played Effie White in a local production of DREAMGIRLS. Now that's a colorblind stretch. When it was announced that she was cast in a local production MY FAIR LADY, we joked that she will be a great Eliza!

Michael Brick : Right now, I think he's casting "Oklahoma" for a dinner theater.

Googie Gomez : "Oklahoma", it's a stretch, but I can do that part.

______

Gaetano Proclo : You were in "The Sound of Music"?

Googie Gomez : Oh chure.

Gaetano Proclo : Where was this?

Googie Gomez : Broadway, the mainest thing, where else?

Gaetano Proclo : The original cast?

Googie Gomez : Ha, I was more original than anyone else in it. They fired me on the first day of rehearsal, those bastards. They said I wasn't right for the part.

Gaetano Proclo : What part was that?

Googie Gomez : Oh, one of the fucking Trapp kids.

From an old "Comic Relief" sketch: (I don't remember who said what, but this was the gist)

Robin Williams and Billy Crystal as two very bitchy gay chorus boys.

Dancer 1: I just got back from doing a bus-and-truck version of "Oklahoma" with Lucille Ball.

Dancer 2: Who played the Alfred Drake part?

Both: SHE did!

Alfred Drake was famous enough to namecheck in a TV sketch?

Musical workshopped (2002)

"Mildred!"

[quote]I don't know how many times I've seen Gigi, and I don't recall Eva Gabor's character attempting suicide.

Well, you may not recall it, but it's in there. We don't SEE her attempt suicide, but it's discussed in the scene right after Gaston walks out on her and she starts crying. It's mentioned that she has made unsuccessful attempts at suicide before, for sympathy. The whole discussion is not funny AT ALL, and incredibly offensive by modern standards. If you have seen the movie multiple times, I really don't know how you missed all this.

[quote]Color blind casting won’t work in cases where the play is specifically about being a specific race.

The are many, many cases where old plays about white people are not "about" their race but it still makes no historical sense for those characters to be non-white, because in those days non-whites weren't as integrated into mainstream American society as they are now. And your statement that "even musicals based on historical people like, say Gypsy, could be played by minority performers because no one even remembers the actual people anymore" is outright ridiculous.

Tell that to Leslie Uggams...

R450, stop shitting today on actors of color and vainly justifying said shitting because people of color were shit on in the past. You have it all backwards. The wrongs committed in the past are not a reason to commit these kinds of wrongs in the present. They are a reason to do better and not repeat our failings and sins.

R450, stop shitting today on actors of color and vainly justifying said shitting because people of color were shit on in the past. You have it all backwards. The wrongs committed in the past are not a reason to commit these kinds of wrongs in the present. They are a reason to do better and not repeat our failings and sins.

"There he is singing about how happy he is that now can "sit here in the shade, with none of the woes of man and maid," yet in other scenes we see and hear about him still dating lots of women. And, guess what? They're all MUCH younger than him. I do sense a theme here.... "

Yes, it's called ambivalence and consistent with the character. The aging roue is still on the make, even though his salad days are long behind him. Hence, I REMEMBER IT WELL ("A prince of love in every way/Ah, yes, I remember it well...") Honore is able to acknowledge his seniority and that his days are numbered. Brilliant pathos.

"The whole discussion is not funny AT ALL, and incredibly offensive by modern standards"

Said no one ever. Except for you humorless types. You've never known a drama queen or people seeking attention? Well, I can tell you--I WAS ONE OF THEM and tried to off myself more than once way back when. And when I look back on those days, I laugh and laugh at my youthful folly.

How literal and unimaginative some of you are. All you've sacrificed is your humanity.

R446 - I had no idea who this Googie Gomez was, so I googled. Rita Moreno looks like a hoot in this role.

I love this. What a nice tribute to Mary Martin. I'm a child of the 80s and 90s and grew up watching Dallas. Larry Hagman = JR to me and pretty much nothing else. Perhaps that ended up being the same for most people, but he seems so witty, smart and sensitive here.

Contrary to the JR character, in looking at his Wiki page, he appeared to be a big ol lefty, anti-War and an environmentalist ahead of his time.

If The Lion King were made today, would Taymor be accused of "cultural appropriation" since every convention in that show is a ripoff of Asian theatre and puppetry?

No, because American people know nothing abut Japanese puppetry. They think that puppets were invented for the Howdy Doody Show.

Oh but you know there would now be some shit-stirring POC out of work actress who would start a petition to shut it down.

Collette's Gigi novella is hilarious - on the surface the story is fluff, but there is a fierce wit to the writing. The musical doesn't come close - partially because when you come down to it, the aunts are pimping out Gigi, and the movie ignores that

R456 And here she is, clips from tv movie

[quote]Does anyone know why there wasn't an OBC recording of TIMBUKTU? I know wasn't a massive success, but shows with much shorter runs have had recordings made.

There was a two CD disc recording of Kismet made back in the 1980s or 90s of Kismet that included as bonus tracks all the new songs written for Timbuktu. Unfortunately, both the OBCR and the stereo early 1960s recording of the Lincoln Center revival with Drake are both better representations of the score but those revisal songs are out there.

My late partner and I saw Timbuktu during the last week of previews. We, and the rest of the audience, thought it was flawed but FABULOUS. We were astonished when it opened a week later to generally negative reviews and a short run.

Clips from Company, too. Priducers have money to bring it back when it is allowed.

Timbuktu...

A bit more...

Maurice Chevalier? Honoré Lachaille?

Amateurs, I say!

r448 It was back in the '80s when (1) more people were alive who would have been familiar with Drake and (2) they didn't have to dumb down things as much as they would today.

[quote]You've never known a drama queen or people seeking attention? Well, I can tell you--I WAS ONE OF THEM and tried to off myself more than once way back when. And when I look back on those days, I laugh and laugh at my youthful folly.

You tried to kill yourself "more than once" when you were younger, and now when you look back, you think that's funny? And you think those of us who don't see the "humor" in that situation have "lost our humanity?" Really, there are no words....

"the aunts are pimping out Gigi, and the movie ignores that"

Not so...

Does anybody else have memories of Timbuktu?

TIMBUKTU was a bit before my time, but I'd be happy to discuss anything as opposed to the lunacy surrounding GIGI.

[quote]Does anybody else have memories of Timbuktu?

I saw it. Eartha Kitt had one of the best entrances I've ever seen on Broadway. She entered to the sound of drumbeats, standing (not sitting) on a pair of muscle men. They lowered her to the floor, at which point she glared at the audience for what seemed to be a long time, before finally growling, "I . . . am . . . HERE." The audience went nuts. She was making a triumphant return to Broadway after some dry years following the Lady Bird incident.

There are a lot of shows that went unrecorded over the years, for a variety of reasons—often financial. Today, thanks to digitizing, almost every show gets a shot.

"Timbuktu" might have been more successful if they'd used the title "Hello, Mali!"

[quote]I had no idea who this Googie Gomez was, so I googled. Rita Moreno looks like a hoot in this role.

You think that's a hoot, Goggle her Tony acceptance speech for the stage version.

You can find almost anything on YouTube...

That is a truly terrific entrance.

Finally a Macbeth with a hot body. From the Stratford Festival.

And here's the Timbuktu! entrance, and the song, "In the Beginning, Woman," from the MDA Telethon, including a good look at the bodybuilders in studded jockstraps.

r479 see r464

Another After Midnight fan here. Fantasia was positively electric

That Eartha Kitt entrance was amazing! The song that followed... not so much.

[quote]You think that's a hoot, Goggle her Tony acceptance speech for the stage version.

r475 - That was fun! How could you not love Rita? So full of life! By the way, is that Nurse Bernadette escorting the old man off stage???

I remember the Oscars did a past winners segment in the late 90s. When the camera got to Rita, she gave the camera a leery grin and fluttered each of her fingers while wearing long, tacky earrings. Sr. Peter Marie she ain't.

Who presented that Tony? Is it George Abbott?

I think that was kind of a cunty speech. You won a Tony, bitch. And you're not a leading lady, you're a character actress. And you've been doing that character for fifty years. Just be grateful and say thank you and sit the fuck down.

Hello Dolly - Carol Channing - 1997

Wrestling with Angels - Tony Kushner.

I can see why Rita made that speech. Think of "Bye Bye Birdie." Chita's role went to... Janet Leigh. Rita got no movies out of her Oscar win. A few years later she was playing the second female lead in the London company of "She Loves Me."

Fame - The Musical?

R485, Rita Moreno was first-billed above the title in THE RITZ on Broadway. She was first-billed above the title in THE SIGN IN SIDNEY BRUSTEIN'S WINDOW in 1964 on Broadway. She's been a leading lady for a long time. She can also play character roles. Leading lady roles don't always mean you are playing yourself.

Well, at least she got a cast recording out of it (and a new song), r488...

between race stuff and Timbuktu and Baby Jane, maybe this thread is proof we shouldn't have threads until theater comes back.

The guy carrying Eartha, granted she was itty bitty, but to bow down with her so she could deboard was Tony worthy.

[quote]Between race stuff and Timbuktu and Baby Jane, maybe this thread is proof we shouldn't have threads until theater comes back.

Or maybe all it proves is that you should simply absent yourself from these threads.

[quote]between race stuff and Timbuktu and Baby Jane, maybe this thread is proof we shouldn't have threads until theater comes back.

You left out Maurice Chevalier in "Gigi."

At least the people posting about TIMBUKTU and BABY JANE are entertaining. None of the rest of it is.

Pity poor, R496. We have not entertained him.

We don't care!

I'm the guy who posted about seeing Timbuktu in the last week of previews and the later recording that included the new songs. The guy who said she was born aloft by two bodybuilders was wrong, as the youtube clip shows if you watch it carefully. She was sitting in the palm of the hand off a massive nearly seven foot black bodybuilder. Eartha was a tiny thing. The night I saw it, he lowered her all the way to the stage floor and she then slithered her way across the floor on her stomach until she was past the footlights and half hanging over the orchestra pit and then looked directly at the audience purred. "I'mmm.... Here." The audience just exploded. The youtube clip doesn't do it justice. One of the most exciting moments I've ever seen on a stage and I'm old.

The other biggest moment I remember from Timbuktu was a dance interlude inserted into the middle of Stranger in Paradise. Two wonderful dancers barely dressed in egret feathers danced a pas de deux as birds of paradise. The audience loved it.

The critical response was strange. The notoriously homophobic Martin Gottlieb of the NY Post was offended by all the muscular black chorus dancers who wore little more than bejeweled dance straps. My late lover and I loved it.

The MGM film is a mixed bag. A good cast, a few decent scenes, but director Vincent Minelli didn't want to do it but MGM forced him to as part of a long term contract. His disinterest and MGM's low budget are obvious in the finished product.

Here's the two CD set that includes the Timbuktu songs. The recording also includes "Bored" written for Delores Gray the MGM film. "Bored" was interpolated into the 1960's Lincoln Center revival with Drake and is included on that recording with an excellent Anne Jeffreys.

Finally, one of my favorite recordings of Kismet is a early 1960s studio recording conducted by Mantovani for London/Decca. During Stranger in Paradise, Mantovani's famous One Thousands Strings barge in but it's actually kind of fun . Opera singers Robert Merrill and Regina Resnik are fabulous as Hajj and Lalume and the other performers are all talented opera singers. Great recording.

Here's the Mantovani Kismet recording. Read the user reviews.

[quote]She was sitting in the palm of the hand off a massive nearly seven foot black bodybuilder. Eartha was a tiny thing. The night I saw it, he lowered her all the way to the stage floor and she then slithered her way across the floor on her stomach until she was past the footlights and half hanging over the orchestra pit and then looked directly at the audience purred. "I'mmm.... Here." The audience just exploded. The youtube clip doesn't do it justice. One of the most exciting moments I've ever seen on a stage and I'm old.

But was it a coup de theatre?

Affectionately but actually, yes, r500. It was.

Eartha's Dunham days came in handy....

R499, where the HELL is that image from that's on the cover of the Mantovani recording of KISMET in that edition? Doesn't look like the movie. P.S. I love the Mantovani recording too, because the cast and the sound quality are wonderful, and I think the infamous Mantovani divided strings only come in twice, very briefly.

Decca/London albums in the 1960s were notorious for the their album covers for classical music. Outrageous, fun and often very wild. The UK named recording studio Decca had to release their recordings in the US under the name London because ot trademark and copyright issues. So glad you also enjoy the Mantovani recording of Kismet. It's so well sung.

Outrageous album covers on Decca/London?

You don't say.

Hope it's okay to ask a question on a new topic that doesn't involve Follies, Gypsy, Company, or color-blind casting, but can anyone who saw the Little Women production with Sutton Foster and Maureen McGovern explain why it didn't run long? I very much enjoy the original cast recording and both of them had some big numbers and it is a beloved, classic story. What happened?

Years ago someone gave me the cast recording of that Little Women and I never listened to it. it still sits in its original shrinkwrap. Does that reflect more badly on me or the show?

[quote]can anyone who saw the Little Women production with Sutton Foster and Maureen McGovern explain why it didn't run long?

There was no audience for it. It was part of the frau-daugher triangle: American Girl store in the morning, Little Women in the afternoon, Serendipity for Frozen Hot Chocolate.

Were they going to Wicked instead? R508

i still have the shrinkwrapped OBCR CD of Passion and the purchase receipt from a cut out bin at the Borders in the underground shopping area at the WTC dated 8:44 pm September 10, 2001. Think about that date carefully.

[quote]Think about that date carefully

You're the type of person who immediately explains the punchline of their jokes, aren't you?

[quote]The guy who said she was born aloft by two bodybuilders was wrong, as the youtube clip shows if you watch it carefully. She was sitting in the palm of the hand off a massive nearly seven foot black bodybuilder.

One can forgive a forty two year old memory that is slightly off. But by seeing the video, not off by much, and he was right it was a spectacular entrance, maybe the best in Broadway history.

[quote] One can forgive a forty two year old memory that is slightly off. But by seeing the video, not off by much, and he was right it was a spectacular entrance, maybe the best in Broadway history.

I sincerely apologize if I seemed to be denigrating some else's forty year old plus memory. God knows I have had a few old memories of my own corrected here.But she did make her entrance in the palm of the hand of a single bodybuilder and it was a fantastic entrance. I'm grateful there is someone else here here who remembers how thrilling that entrance was.

And again I apologize if I offended the other poster. At least we were both there and remember that incredible entrance.

I know this is an "OH, MARY!" moment but I hope you live to be old enough to have a few of your own.

I miss cock. Oh sorry wrong thread.

There is no such thing as the wrong thread for that sentiment r514.

Please, queens. Kitt's entrance was okay.

Broadway pros fuming after CBS replaces Tonys with ‘Grease’ singalong:

CBS will probably make more money selling ads for this than it ever would have made with the actual Tony Award broadcast.

If so, it will be difficult for the Tony Awards producers to negotiate its way past that fact next year. As it is, if they didn't hold the Tony Award show after Memorial Day and firmly in the summer, it might not get broadcast at all.

The Tonys should move to a digital platform. Keeping them on a network will kill them.

I can imagine that next year the Tony Awards will be foisted off on WPIX for the New York metro market and the internet for anyone else who might care about it. At least it might get them out of Radio City. Nothing performed there as part of a Tony broadcast has looked very good. The show had much more energy when it moved to the Beacon some years back.

The Tony Awards haven't been exciting since the 1980s. They don't deserve to be broadcast because the very people who are supposed to be entertaining are more boring than Al & Louise at the local VFW. When I can go to DataLounge and be more entertained by the comments people are making *about* the awards in progress, then it's time to rethink the show.

Maybe that would bring back the glamour, r520.

SOME LIKE IT HOT announced for Broadway for Fall 2021--no out-of-town tryouts. This is a brand-new musicalization of the classic movie, not the Jule Steyn "SUGAR" version from the 70s.

Score by Shaiman and Whitman and book by Matthew Lopez.

Is Barbara Nichols available?

[quote] SOME LIKE IT HOT announced for Broadway for Fall 2021--no out-of-town tryouts. This is a brand-new musicalization of the classic movie, not the Jule Steyn "SUGAR" version from the 70s. Score by Shaiman and Whitman and book by Matthew Lopez.

What could go wrong?

[quote]What could go wrong?

Score by Shaiman and Whitman

If the Broadway types are complaining about the Tonys being replaced with Grease, they should get off their asses and put together that Tony retrospective that they are clamoring for and put it on YouTube, opposite Grease. That way, the gays can still have their vicarious Super Bowl and CBS can make money off of Grease. God only knows that the Tony broadcast has always been a money loser for them. James Corden can even introduce it and LMM can sing highlights from Porgy and Bess; no one will mind.

Will SUGAR still be available for production?

But what of my SUGAR legacy?

Oh shuddup, Jelaine.

[quote]I can imagine that next year the Tony Awards will be foisted off on WPIX for the New York metro market and the internet for anyone else who might care about it.

I seem to recall reading that CBS regards the Tonys as a "prestigious cultural event," which is one reason the awards has kept its home on the network all these years despite the anemic ratings (the other being Les Moonves, who was a big booster of the theater industry). Now, however, with this pandemic (and Moonves being history), prestige may no longer be enough to keep the show on their schedule.

[quote]The Tony Awards haven't been exciting since the 1980s. They don't deserve to be broadcast because the very people who are supposed to be entertaining are more boring than Al & Louise at the local VFW. When I can go to DataLounge and be more entertained by the comments people are making *about* the awards in progress, then it's time to rethink the show.

No argument here, but to be fair, people do say the same about the Oscars and (to a lesser extent) the Emmys. About the only major awards show that seems to escape this criticism is the Grammys (which has its own problems I'm sure).

That Broadway Newcomer!

[quote]Decca/London albums in the 1960s were notorious for the their album covers for classical music. Outrageous, fun and often very wild.

Thanks, but I still wonder specifically where that image on the KISMET cover came from. It looks like it's a photo of an actual, lavish production somewhere. And it does look a little like it might be from the movie, but I don't think so.

[quote]Can anyone who saw the Little Women production with Sutton Foster and Maureen McGovern explain why it didn't run long? I very much enjoy the original cast recording and both of them had some big numbers and it is a beloved, classic story. What happened?

I can't say if this is why it flopped, but in my opinion, the score is garbage. It apparently replaced a previous score that many people feel was far better. (I've never heard any of it.)

[quote]SOME LIKE IT HOT announced for Broadway for Fall 2021--no out-of-town tryouts. This is a brand-new musicalization of the classic movie, not the Jule Steyn "SUGAR" version from the 70s. Score by Shaiman and Whitman and book by Matthew Lopez.

Of course, this may never happen anyway because of the COVID crisis, but if that weren't an issue, I would say it's a big mistake for Lopez to decide to follow the critical and box-office disappointment of THE INHERITANCE with an adaptation of a beloved property. To me, it sounds very likely to be a lose-lose situation.

Beyond the boobs, teeth, and fake hair, Elaine Joyce was never a pretty woman.

I really like this song (for Maureen McGovern as Marmee) from LITTLE WOMEN, reflecting on the death of Beth in the show.

She looks pretty fetching here. Better body than Monroe for a flapper, too.

ASTONISHING! from LITTLE WOMEN.

Well, it's better than UNSTOPPABLE from TOOTSIE, at least.

[quote]At least it might get them out of Radio City. Nothing performed there as part of a Tony broadcast has looked very good. The show had much more energy when it moved to the Beacon some years back.

Horseshit, they had to use a video screen as sets at the Beacon. Radio City makes it special. You couldn't do this at The Beacon.

Warn a person before you put Neil Facial Wasting Harris in close up.

And this wouldn't as be cool in the Beacon's toilet

Maureen McGovern is a great singer, but I think that song from LITTLE WOMEN is typically abysmal. The music is embarrassingly simplistic and pedestrian, and the lyrics are even worse, so generic and cliched and vapid. Even worse is Foster's song, "Astonishing," which is so ineptly written that the the setting of the title word has the accent on the wrong syllable (the last one). Horribly grating and annoying.

"I'll shout and start a riot, be anything but quiet." With the second syllables of "riot" and "quiet" on held notes, so the singer can't even come close to making them sound like they rhyme. Now, THAT is crappy lyric writing.

I'm not familiar with Lopez's writing beyond Inheritance. Is he good at comedy???

Haven’t watched this yet but it looks rather sweet. I hope something from Busker Alley is in it.

[quote]One can forgive a forty two year old memory that is slightly off. But by seeing the video, not off by much, and he was right it was a spectacular entrance, maybe the best in Broadway history.

Thank you, R512.

Oh, horseshit yourself, R538. The show looked much, much, better in a real theater. It's about Broadway. At least present the fucking awards in something that looks like a Broadway theater. Radio City dwarfs everything and sucks the life right out of it. The main limitation at the Beacon is fewer seats to sell. That affects the production budget. But if the production staff can't work around that, they have no business being anywhere near Broadway.

So prefer a video screen over a real set, got it.

Forgotten me already, you bitches? (1) I fucked Maurice Chevalier. Lousy Lay although he wore nice cologne. (2) I played Bloody Mary in summer stock. Yeah, I know, a low low point in my career but top billing Monday, Tuesday you're touring in stock. But I did better than Neely, who played Liat in a bus and truck. And No One complained that I was Caucasian so fuck that. Now get the fuck outta my way, I got a man waitin for me.

Lopez's play GEORGIA MCBRIDE was hilarious and touching. And if you wonder if he can do comedy, then you didn't see INHERITANCE.

I never miss a Matthew Lopez musical.

Anyone else watch Barber Shop Chronicles from NT Live? I enjoyed it a lot, especially the final scene, which I thought packed a punch. I bet it was even better seen in the theatre (but thanks NT Live!).

Having heard very little good about Streetcar with Gillian Anderson, I'll watch it as long as I can stand it (the preview did not impress). Was the production with Patricia Clarkson filmed because she seems like the perfect Blanche to me.

Also, based on that processional and entrance, the Metropolitan Opera should do Timbuktu. But who could play Eartha's role?

An ex-Velma.

Grace Jones? R551

Re: The Tonys. As I recall, the Tonys remain profitable for CBS and they have no issue selling premium spots. Yes, the ratings of course continue to decline, as they have for the Oscars and Grammys, but the Tonys has a reliable, wealthy audience. There seems to be this idea that advertisers are solely looking for young audiences. But boomers are wealthier and have more disposable income. Hence the types of ads you're going to see on the Tonys -- prescription drugs for ED, luxury cars, designers watches etc.

Also, I'm not sure there'a definitive answer on which is the better venue -- the Beacon or Radio City. Weirdly, and contrary to what I would guess, simply staged and solo numbers work really well at Radio City whereas big production numbers don't always translate there -- it's like they get swallowed up. I know that fantastic NPH opening 'Bigger' is an exception, but that was also a production number built specifically for that venue. Even though the Beacon is better for a lot of production numbers, there's no denying the sense of occasion that Radio City brings and when there's a particularly great performance (or a well earned win), hearing all of Radio City roar in approval is a treat.

Hate to break it to you, R542, but quiet and riot do rhyme:

raɪət kwaɪət

[quote]As I recall, the Tonys remain profitable for CBS and they have no issue selling premium spots. Yes, the ratings of course continue to decline, as they have for the Oscars and Grammys, but the Tonys has a reliable, wealthy audience. There seems to be this idea that advertisers are solely looking for young audiences. But boomers are wealthier and have more disposable income. Hence the types of ads you're going to see on the Tonys -- prescription drugs for ED, luxury cars, designers watches etc.

Yes, that's always been my understanding, as well. Sheer numbers in ratings are not always the most important thing, it's also largely about demographics and audiences with lots of disposable income. And yet people seem to forget this every years when they harp on the Tonys' overall low ratings.

R539 Are you also the poster who makes a point of referring to Andre de Shield’s “facial wasting.” I hope so, as I hope there are not two AIDS-Phobic, hateful bitter queens, lonely and spiteful, still using the appearance of a possible symptom of a disease that hit posters on this board so deeply and tragically. Stay under your rock.

Since when do fraus get to be called “queens”?

Sure CBS loves the Tonys. That's why the first hour was pushed off on PBS.

Are ypu trying to argue that fraus throw around "facial wasting", "poz face" etc.?

All award shows are losing their audience for a couple of reasons. First- there are too many of them on tv. Second- people are tired of hearing political agendas during acceptance speeches. Third - with social media, anyone can see " stars" at any time of the day. No more waiting until the Oscars or Tonys to see real stars ( not the pretend ones like today), you can see them on social media, YouTube, or any number of outlets 24/7.

R560 - I wouldn't expend too much energy on the person/people throwing around phrases like that. It's probably all connected to internalized homophobia and I have to imagine that they might have been experiencing social isolation for a lot longer than the COVID period. Perhaps they don't have any real relationships with fellow gay people other than those they interact with online, like here on Datalounge, and so it's easy for them to have some cognotive dissonance and see gay men as "other." Or maybe they're just assholes.

Enjoying all the Kismet and Timbuktu love here. The original cast recording is one of my all-time faves. I’ve only seen one production, and it was the ponderous one at Encores. It was a shame because the cast was great as I recall, but it was quite a slog.

I don't enjoy Joan Diener's belt.

Ann doin' the 3 Bs...

[quote]I don't enjoy Joan Diener's belt.

How about Cockgobbler Aaron Schock's?

I take the belt comment back.

^I think she's tremendous!

I'm no spring chicken. I was born in 1980, but until this thread, I'd never even heard of Kismet. R565 - that was so beautiful. Sorry if I missed this, but if I were listening to only one recording to get familiar with the score, which would it be?

And, a related question, reading about Kismet, I see it originated with the Los Angeles Civic Light Opera. Are there many companies like that left? Regional theatres that hire mostly Equity actors (sometimes, big names from Broadway) in fully staged, full-orchestra productions? I don't know if these technically count as the same things, but I'm aware of Moonlight Theatre, San Diego Musical Theatre and Musical Theatre West in Southern California and Papermill Playhouse in New Jersey.

Well, this number was written for Dolores...

Uhhh, Audra McDonald, maybe, R551?

Audra as a vamp?

[quote] but if I were listening to only one recording to get familiar with the score, which would it be?

My favorite KISMET recording has always been the 1965 Lincoln Center revival. The OCR is good too, but the technological limitations of the time (1953) make for a 'muddied' sound, IMHO.

Eartha Kitt had a sexy growl to her voice. The only thing that growls on Audra McDonald is her stomach after finishing off a Chipotle #6.

But Audra can sing the opera shit, can’t she? The poster was describing an OPERA HOUSE production of Timbuktu.

That actually wasn't her real hair color, r567.

I have done some retail therapy because of this thread, and getting an email from CSC about the performance of Assassins I was supposed to attend this week.Sugar. two Kismet recordings, and Bubbling Brown Sugar (showed up in the search for Sugar). This quarantine is rounding out my Broadway collection.

Has anyone ever seen a 2fer CD of "Brigadoon" and "It's Always Fair Weather"?

What was the gist of the email R577? I never got one and my tickets were for April 26.

Sondheim always cites Alfred Drake in Kismet as his favorite male performance in a musical.

[quote] Hate to break it to you, [R542], but quiet and riot do rhyme: raɪət kwaɪət

They rhyme when they are spoken, in which case both have the "schwa" sound in the last syllable, as you posted. But my point is that when you sing those syllables on extended notes, they should be "kwy-EHT" and "ry-UHT," so you'd have to distort one or both of them to make them sound like they rhyme. True, Ira Gershwin force-rhymed "try it" and "riot," so there is precedent, but he was also wrong to do that.

I assume the poster who keeps describing NPH and AdS and their "facial wasting" is not a Frau, but a particularly nasty gay man d'une certain age, who uses such descriptions to express his loathing of gay men (including himself) and is still stuck in time when people thought you could "tell by looking" who was infected. And is especially enraged that "such people" still gave the nerve to be alive and thriving. I have no investment in whether either of the men described with facial wasting do or do not have HIV (presumably that information is theirs to disclose or not as they wish), but I also do not denigrate people who may be positive or have full-blown AIDS. Two friends of mine are long-term survivors and, yes, they do exhibit some of the characteristics of facial wasting. Both have thriving careers, one hs been with the same partner for ternary years (and yes, his partner and s negative and has known about my friend's status since they met). My best friend died of AIDS in 1993--I wish he were here, even if it meant "facial wasting" or other "battle scars." I miss him every day. So,Ngor someone in 2020 to be using facial wasting as a nasty "slur" makes me very angry.

That's all.

[quote]Enjoying all the Kismet and Timbuktu love here. The original cast recording is one of my all-time faves. I’ve only seen one production, and it was the ponderous one at Encores. It was a shame because the cast was great as I recall, but it was quite a slog.

Yes, unfortunately, the only two major productions of KISMET that I've seen -- the New York City Opera production with George Hearn, years ago, and the Encores! one with Stokes -- were both disappointments, I think for several reasons but mostly because neither one had the right directorial touch and tone. I can see why it might be hard to get that old-fashioned showbiz tone right nowadays, but I think it's essential for the show to work. Looks like maybe TIMBUKTU got it.

CSC said they plan to reschedule and will be in touch about Assassins. They did not offer a refund or any specifics. Roundabout offered a credit or donation in the email, but added an option for a refund when you clicked the link. MTC offered options, but would do a refund if you didn’t respond. I don’t envy these companies at all.

Kismet, shizmet, nothing beats the music of the composer.

R581, singing the extended note of "riot" as you suggests just sounds very weird.

I know you cannot sing a swchwa that long. Usually it is made into the sound you have on the second syllable of "quiet."

I think you are getting confused by the spelling. Just because the schwa is spelled differently is no reason to shift to different vowells when extending the sound. In fact, the "uh" sound is very hard to sing. Even in the word "love", singers will make the vowell a dipthong rather than singing "uh."

Could’ve been. He was certainly around in 1975-76.

I was wondering if anyone knew why Jill O'Hara from 'Promises, Promises' never did more theatre after her tony nominated performance? She had such a unique emotive singing voice. Why did her theatre career practically end?

Jill was fine, but she was Jenny O'Hara.

What are the family dynamics there?

Jill creates the role. Her sister Jenny replaces her. And their mother runs a somewhat disreputable theater that stays around forever....

What are their Thanksgivings like?

Did anyone expect that Jenny would be the one with the longer career as a performer?

Why on earth did they drop "I Resolve" from that London She Loves Me in favor of a decidedly inferior song?

Yeah, Jenny O'Hara was able to parlay her stage work into some decent film and TV work.

R586, some of what you say makes sense to me, but I'm sorry, I still think it sounds wrong to sing "riot" with an extended note on the second syllable as "ry-EHT," which is how Sutton Foster sings it in that awful LITTLE WOMEN song. To me, "ry-UHT" sounds much more natural. Certainly not "ry-OTT," but "ry-UHT," which to me sounds like the closest equivalent of the "schwa" sound. I don't know if there are any actual "rules" about this, but that's my opinion.

Didn't Jill O'Hara have a nervous breakdown or something that led to her leaving Promises, Promises?

IIRC she couldn't handle the strain of performing and being in the public eye.

R594, I'm not R584.

But seriously... let it go. You'll live longer.

FIRST MIDNIGHT!

Grammy Jill O'Hara revisiting her old hit.

Jenny O'Hara has done a lot of TV and film, including a recurring role on TRANSPARENT.

I like Jill's singing voice. Unique.

Let me tell you about that cunt Charlotte Rae.

I hope whoever has prepared the new thread is going to link to it here.