How come Florence Ballard was chosen to play second fiddle to Dianna Ross?

Miss Ross has "it"..... star power. Even after Diana left Mary wasn't ready to step into the lead role.

And while Diana doesn't have "power" vocals, her voice is very unique. You can hear it breakthrough in group songs and the minute you hear it you know who it is. i always expected Florence's to be some big Jennifer Holliday type voice but the few things I've heard (very little to be honest) she had a great voice, but it didn't sound like anything particularly memorable.

I don't hear it. I've never heard it. I think people just like an underdog/villain story.

Walk on by.

Good News.

Buttered Popcorn.

It Doesn't Matter How I Say It.

Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You.

Come and Get These Memories.

She laughed when Barry pulled out his dick.

Diane didn't.

I agree R1, Diana doesn't have the big gospel voice of an Aretha or Patti, but she has a really pretty and distinctive pop voice. I think she's quite underrated. Florence's voice didn't have enough (or any) character, though she was obviously talented.

I've never liked Berry Gordy, but he had great instincts when it came to talent. The fact that he saw something in the scrawny little bug-eyed girl that may not have been apparent to everyone else is a testament to his acumen.

Happier times.

I thought this was explained in the first act of "Dreamgirls." She became too fat and too difficult.

Mary was the pretty one. Flo had the r&b voice, which at the time was limited to black radio. Diana's girlish voice had more crossover appeal, which is why Berry put her in lead permanently. Her voice sold records.

Had a lot to do with the Dionne Warwick /Burt Bacharack/Hal David songs that hit on the white stations. Then as R13 posted.

[quote] I thought this was explained in the first act of "Dreamgirls." She became too fat and too difficult.

Florence was brutally raped as a teen. It eventually took a toll on her. She became very unhappy as the girls became more successful and started to drift apart from each other. Then Gordy made Ross the permanent lead. Florence needed a lot of emotional support. She really needed to be in therapy. Diana needed to be a superstar. She worked her ass off to achieve it. I think Barry Gordy respected her work ethic and her drive to succeed. They seemed to really get each other. After the girls became successful. Gordy wasn’t going to let anything get in the way, including Florence. Motown didn’t know about the rape. Florence was a very troubled woman.

Gordy replaced her. Pressured her into accepting a fraction of what she deserved. She later sued. She was not allowed to advertise herself as a former Supreme, after she left. Which hurt her solo career.

Diana Ross rose to the top because she was screwing the boss, Berry Gordy.

Without the drama between Flo and Diana we never would have had the musical Dreamgirls. Then where would countless drag queens and others be without Effie's big number, "And I'm Telling You......".

[quote] Diana Ross rose to the top because she was screwing the boss, Berry Gordy.

It was more than that. Gordy’s number 1 priority was making hit records. It took a while for the Supremes to get a hit. Once they did. They kept coming, with Diana singing lead.

Gordy made the right choice. Ross had that crossover appeal that he wanted.

I think Mary and Flo could sing but they didn't have that pop appeal Ross had. And yet Ross proved over the years that she could sing showtunes, R&B, disco, and of course, jazz.

Mary sang lead on some of the '70s Supremes songs and while they are good, her leads are nowhere as good as Ross, or Ross' replacement, the wonderful Jean Terrell.

Though never criminally charged for the rape of Florence Ballard, karma caught up with Reggie Harding none the less.

I don't know where this is coming from. Neither Supreme was prettier or more charismatic. The only rival Diana had in the looks department was Michael Jackson. Who almost achieved being her doppleganger equal.

I don't think Flo or Mary were prettier or had better voices than Diana. How come Mary never had the same career as Diana?

Because Mary is a certifiable, back-stabbing, no talent CUNT, R23.

Florence and Mary never fucked Berry Gordy. Diane did.

[quote]Motown didn’t know about the rape

Gordy knew. Rape doesn’t sell hit records.

Diane had the more "white" sounding voice. Plus she was more cutthroat and was more than willing to screw over her two former friends.

Gladys Knight doesn't have a wide sounding voice. If Flo or Mary coulda been, they woulda been. And that's showbusiness.

*white

Miss Ross had 'that thing that can't be taught.' She had charisma and stage presence that the other ladies did not have. The camera chose Miss Ross as much as Berry Gordy did.

OMG, I'm teary as I type. I've never before seen the clip r18 posted. The futility and failure to convince her man to stay is reinforced, not strengthened, by the power of Holliday's voice.

Whew.

Anyway, +1 with what's already been stated about Ross's star power and talent. I also adore all of her reported diva and vixenish ways. She too old now to get away with those, but, she had her day.

Otoh, when it comes to performers without any talent but nevertheless they're stars, I'm reminded of what a Hollywood producer said about that in "Vanity Fair" magazine.

He said, with movie some stars, actual talent isn't necessary. But once you see their image projected on the big screen, you watch them. It's undefinable and can't be developed. I had the feeling, he was talking about Demi Moore, who, at the time, was the biggest star in Hollywood.

Gladys wasn't in a girl group. She and the Pips were never as big as the Supremes. They did, however, open for the Supremes for awhile, until Miss Ross decided that they were getting too much applause and had them removed.

[Quote] She and the Pips were never as big as the Supremes.

Not true. Gladys & the Pips were doing better in the late 1960s on the charts than the Supremes were.

Gladys Knight had a wonderful instrument and is a great performer, with several Grammy awards against zero for Diana Ross.

That being said Gladys Knight with or without the Pips was totally different than much of what Diana Ross (and again, with or without the Supremes) put out.

Diana Ross could never do R&B or Soul like GK.

Diana has crossover appeal. Gordy wanted a girl group that could sell to white people and get played on pop stations vs just R&B. That is why Diana was made lead, her voice was a pop voice, and made them huge. White people loved Diana.

They would never buy albums by the other two.

R18

Reason why so many drag queens, female and even some male singers have covered "And I'm Telling You..." to death is the feeling that are supposed (but often lacking) to be conveyed.

AIATU is for any woman or man whose been told one too many times they are being dumped for various reasons (you're too fat, to femmy, to demanding, too black, etc.....). Effie summons up forces of nature to say "no, not this time"; and whips herself up into a frenzy believing her power will keep her man. It doesn't work of course, and it never does because once a man has made up his mind to leave he usually has been "gone" long before anyway.

As it relates to Dreamgirls everyone and their mother jumped on "it's Diana Ross and the Supremes story), with Effie of course being Florence Ballard . Florence Ballard was also heavy (at the time) and allegedly forced out of the group because she didn't fit the glamouours image that was being built up for the Supremes.

[quote]AIATU is for any woman or man whose been told one too many times they are being dumped for various reasons (you're too fat, to femmy, to demanding, too black, etc.....).

Does that include DL fave Miss Lake Dardanelle?

I think it DOES.

One last Gladys Knight.....

Her cover of "The Way We Were" actually rated higher (at least in UK), than the Barbra Streisand version.

"(Flo) became very unhappy as the girls became more successful and started to drift apart from each other. Then Gordy made Ross the permanent lead. Florence needed a lot of emotional support. She really needed to be in therapy."

Florence needed to DRY OUT, be more self disciplined, lose weight (which had become a problem) and be on time. Then therapy. She was a major boozer way out of control. If any of us behaved on our jobs like this, we'd be fired in an instant.

R39: and all of that was from the trauma she experienced.

Re Jennifer Holliday’s performance, I played a VCR performance for a gathering of office mates at a secretary’s home in the late ‘80s. Her then-teenage son, a big Madonna fan, had just one response to Jennifer’s powerful performance: “Can she dance?”

[quote]Diana Ross could never do R&B or Soul like GK.

And vice versa. I can't picture Gladys doing something like Upside Down or I'm Coming out. And act? Have you seen the movie Gladys made? Yikes.

Both are phenomenally talented woman, but both are in completely different lanes. Gladys is pure r and b while Diana is a comfy confection of pop with some underrated jazz in there as well.

[quote] [R39]: and all of that was from the trauma she experienced.

You're treating it as an excuse. Lots of people experience trauma and they still manage to be professional.

r12, you are an idiot.

Flo got fired from the Supremes because she was an alcoholic and came to rehearsals and performances drunk.

Diana was moved into the lead because had a more pop sound and this was a crossover group. They weren't having hits wit Ballard in the lead. She tried to have a solo career but her substance abuse made that difficult. She had lots of chances. Unfortunately she got ripped off by a business manatger who took her Supreme royalties and problems in her marriage.

I think if she had been able to deal with the rape as women are today, she would have had a different life.

The second half focuses on Flo

R40, do you know how many women are raped, some even brutally raped? It's not unusual, and in those days there was no legal recourse, so it wasn't reported. Everyone's looking for The Big Excuse for Florence's behavior. Not buying.

People keep mentioning Diana was screwing the boss. Berry was screwing a lot of people........

Diana had a much lighter sound. Berry wanted a black female singer who had that Light sound. Up to that point, black women singers had a very heavy sound, with lots of gospel/soul inflection.

R45: people experience things in different ways. It's no excuse. It is rape you know.....

I just love the Supremes.

Say what you want but Diana had to be the lead.

I just love the Supremes.

Say what you want but Diana had to be the lead.

Berry wanted a black female group who could break into mainstream pop stations. He knew Diana had the voice for that. And he was right. Every song of theirs that went to #1 was sung by her. The Flo ones FLOPPED.

One of the reasons Dreamgrils was so successful is that it's the rare Broadway show that has a strong second act, and that's because the producers had to change Flo Ballard's story. they had originally planned to have the musical follow Flo's own story, where she drifts into poverty and obscurity and then dies, but that just wouldn't sell: you'd have to feel in the end that even if Effie got a raw deal, she did it to herself by being unreasonable. Instead, they had Effie grow up ("I Am Changing"), release a hit song ("One Night Only"), and be re-accepted by the Dreams when they broke up ("Hard to Say Goodbye, My Love"). None of those things ever happened to Florence Ballard.

r52, Mary invited her back to the Supremes after Diana went solo so it did happen. It just didn't work out because of the alcoholism.

I love this topic when it comes up on DL. The posts are so funny. Really brings out the queenliness!

Oh you're so butch, r53.

[Quote] Mary invited her back to the Supremes after Diana went solo so it did happen. It just didn't work out because of the alcoholism.

Are you talking about the time Mary invited Florence onstage and Flo played a tambourine for a song or two?

Diane was only ever interested in Diane and was willing to do whatever it took to become a star. As to the voice, it’s a thin little thing, much like Diane.

OP, half the world was prettier than Diana Ross when she was in the Supremes.

[Quote] As to the voice, it’s a thin little thing, much like Diane.

And yet, as mentioned upthread, it cuts through. Hers in an unmistakeable sound.

r56, by her choice, she refused to sing.

You only have to hear one note, and you know it is Diana Ross singing.

Flo and Mary had very generic voices.

That is why Ross became the star of the group.

[Quote] by her choice, she refused to sing.

So Mary wasn't asking Flo to rejoin the group.

If you have a failing group (“the no hit Supremes” according to Mary Wilson), you make a change. Any business would act on failure. Berry Gordon put Diana Ross out front and sustained magic happened. They had 12 #1 hits and were seen everywhere (TV, top nightclubs, royalty...). Gordy couldn’t make the public purchase their music. Diana Ross, her voice and her presence carried them to become the top female group of all time—their commercial success still hasn’t been equaled to this day.

Mary used to be my favorite. Then she went into victim mode. She enjoyed and benefited from the Supremes’ success and then peddled in gossip and bitterness. Diana left the Supremes and Mary Or her talent didn’t rise to the top. Several lead singers later, and without the same level of success (although they had a few great songs), the group disbanded. Diana went on to have a great solo career—even without Berry. (And I will say, those 5 well adjusted, successful kids, who adore her, Diana had is a testament to her).

She wouldn't / didn't blow Barry Gordy? Oh please. Diana is a textbook case of someone with 'just enough talent and looks' to go A-list with the right management. Harvey Weinstein material. She looked good but had no range.

Quiet as it was kept, this was the criteria set for all the female groups at Motown at the time. Martha Reeves had a big voice but she was also charismatic and great on the stage. The Marvelettes had many lead singers but Wanda Young was they're first "star". She had a sexy voice.

[Quote] She looked good but had no range.

Nonsense. Mary had no range. She speaks or shouts.

Mary also went off key many times.

R66 My comment wasn't towards Mary. It was towards Diana.

Wasn't it because Dianna Ross was fucking Berry Gordy?

[Quote] My comment wasn't towards Mary. It was towards Diana.

Well, it's not accurate. Ross is not a belter but she did not have no range. The truth of it is that Wilson and Ballard did not have what it takes to grab the spotlight. Their fans can coddle them (in Ballard's case, her memory) all they want but that won't change facts.

[Quote] Wasn't it because Dianna Ross was fucking Berry Gordy?

No.

Diana Ross herself said she wasn't the prettiest, didn't have the best singing voice, but whatever she had clicked. That was CHARISMA, presence and know-how as a performer (I said this part). She also had the ambition and drive to put the work in and really go for it, which Gordy recognized. I don't see the problem.

"Martha Reeves had a big voice but she was also charismatic and great on the stage."

Martha was a superb vocalist, but a lousy live performer. None of Motown's training sessions could have made her into a Diana Ross.

she didnt put out/ wasn't hungry enough. People don't just give you opportunity, you have earn these moments and "prove how much you want it". There are dozens behind you waiting for their chance to "prove" themselves who re willing to do what you won't. Diane knew what was up.

"Several lead singers later, and without the same level of success (although they had a few great songs), the group disbanded."

Barry Gordy may have been wealthy, but Gordy and Motown Records did not have the money to promote MIss Ross and every other Motown act/group, so he put all of his eggs in Miss Ross' basket, and, to a lesser extent, the undeniable talent of Stevie Wonder and Gordy's close personal friend, Smokey Robinson baskets. Everybody else was pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hence the huge exit of Motown talent beginning in the early 70's, including the Isley Brothers, Gladys Knight and the Pips, the Four Tops, and the Spinners, all of whom went on to bigger recording careers than they ever had at Motown with other record companies. Also, the exit of the immortal songwriting team of HDH from Motown was a mortal wound from which it would never recover, not to mention the money Gordy and Motown had to spend defending themselves against HDH's decades long lawsuit.

Four Tops had some success post Motown but not to a greater level than their Motown success.

r69. That helps. Knowing when and who to open your mouth and when to close it is a skill most of us haven't mastered. Talent is one component of this puzzle.

Aretha Franklin said the same thing when she saw Diana and the Supremes the first time on television. That there was something about Diana that made you want to watch her.

It is DIANA Ross, not "Dianna." She was born Diane Ross, and friends from way back still call her that; but she never spelled her first name "Dianna."

[quote] If you have a failing group (“the no hit Supremes” according to Mary Wilson), you make a change. Any business would act on failure. Berry Gordon put Diana Ross out front and sustained magic happened.

You are very misinformed. The “No Hit Supremes” were happening with Diane on lead. Except for “Buttered Popcorn,” all the failing singles released before “When The Lovelight Starts Shining Through His Eyes” already had Diane on lead. The decision had already been made by Berry.

The big change that happened was switching writers/producers. When the Supremes were handed over from William “Smokey” Robinson to Holland-Dozier-Holland THAT’S when magic happened. Their third single release with that team of writers was “Where Did Our Love Go” and the rest (12 number ones and about 20 top tens - out of which about 15 were HDH produced) was history.

This was the tits n ass era! It was mutual ambition which drew Ross and Gordy together. All the perceived negatives about her per her detractors are what he loved about her. She fascinated him no end. They both recognized in EACH OTHER the pathway to their goals realized. The Supremes, and more definitely Diana Ross, herself, was Motown's premiere, flag ship act. It was through her that all the other acts prospered by gathering the opportunities she left in her wake. Ex. Ed Sullivan, Copacabana, Las Vegas etc.

Yes, he was R71. I got this from C.C.'s own lips back in 2009 when I was visiting friends she was living with at the time.

How does C.C. explain her own lack of a career then?

[quote] How come Florence Ballard was chosen to play second fiddle to Dianna Ross?

Miss Warwick said all there was to be said when she said that Diane knew exactly when to say "Berry, it's so BIG!"

I got it, R71. The assertion was that no it wasn't the fucking between Ross and Gordy that got Ross to the top because CC was fucking him too and got absolutely no where career wise.

Did Robert Silberstein know when he married Diana that he wasn't the father of her oldest child?

Of course. The child was the reason they got married.

Have you seen Diana? Heard her? She is a SUPERSTAR. Florence? Mary? nope. Diana has the je ne sais quoi. She was an IT girl and yet her appeal lives on. The suburbanites and city people both loved Diana. She had crossover appeal, model good looks, a light poppy voice. Making her the star was marketing genius.

Ross actually posts on her own FB page

Ross does not have model good looks. Her head is too big, she's bug eyed and her mouth is too wide.

Ross was prettier than Pat Cleveland.

[quote]How does C.C. explain her own lack of a career then?

Depends on your definition of a career. She's had a long and productive one in various artistic endeavors.

[quote] Florence needed to DRY OUT, be more self disciplined, lose weight (which had become a problem) and be on time. Then therapy. She was a major boozer way out of control. If any of us behaved on our jobs like this, we'd be fired in an instant.

[quote] [R39]: and all of that was from the trauma she experienced.

Like many people battling emotional trauma, she used alcohol to self medicate.

[quote] [R40], do you know how many women are raped, some even brutally raped? It's not unusual, and in those days there was no legal recourse, so it wasn't reported. Everyone's looking for The Big Excuse for Florence's behavior. Not buying.

Do you know how many people self medicate because of some past emotional trauma?

Shit, Ross drinks, doesn't she? And she had an eating disorder. But Ross kept the show on the road for decades. Not so Flo. It is what it is.

[quote] Berry wanted a black female group who could break into mainstream pop stations. He knew Diana had the voice for that. And he was right. Every song of theirs that went to #1 was sung by her. The Flo ones FLOPPED.

Gordy wanted everyone to sell as many records as possible and to as many people as possible. That included different races and different countries.

As has already been said, the earlier list of flops included Diana on lead. It wasn’t until Lamont Dozier gave them “Baby Love” that they finally had a hit. He wrote it for I think the Marvelettes. They refused it and the Supreme also hated it. Holland, Dozier, Holland proceeded to write a string of hits for them.

[quote] Shit, Ross drinks, doesn't she? And she had an eating disorder. But Ross kept the show on the road for decades. Not so Flo. It is what it is.

Ross wasn’t brutally raped as a teenager. She didn’t have that emotional trauma with which to deal. And even if she had been. She would have probably managed it differently. Her reaction could have been worse. It could have been better. It’s unfair to say that Florence should have been able to do whatever Ross did or whatever you think she might have done.

We know much more about mental illness and what we now call traumatic stress disorder, than we knew in the 1960s. Yet people are still self medicating.

"Where Did Our Love Go", you fat whore.

I never said Flo should have. She didn't. Lamenting it changes nothing.

[quote] I never said Flo should have. She didn't. Lamenting it changes nothing.

Who do you believe is under the impression that this conversation will change the past? Florence’s rape is as much a part of the Supreme’s story as Ross and Gordy’s affair.

[Quote] Who do you believe is under the impression that this conversation will change the past?

Much of the conversation centres around "If only X had developed Y's talents" when the fact is that Diana was a nasal mess on many of those early singles but she improved hugely in a very short amount of time. And she continued to improve over her career. She sounded better in her late 1970s duet with Marvin Gaye than she sounded on their early 1970s duet album (much of it recorded while she was pregnant). Berry's faith in Diana came about when she started to give him hits. Mary and Florence didn't improve, and they had opportunities. There's no shame in being a background singer. But if you have people in your ear who are thinking about the money you could make as a headliner...

Nice, R95. Still not buying the explanations and excuses.

It's too bad Florence had to go through all that and not be able to handle real life. However, the Supremes and Motown were BUSINESS. If you can't perform your job, you're out. If the Supremes were dependent on Florence Ballard, there would have been no Supremes after the first couple of years.

Suzanne de Passe has a lot to answer for. She offered Cindy Birdsong to Gordy before Flo ever left the group. Make of that what you will.

Cindy had to fill in when Ballard was drunk or didn't show up. There's nothing Suzanne or Cindy have to answer for.

Robert Ellis Silberstein, another (hot) Jewish guy with a thing for darker ladies.

It does seem nearly every famous AA female actress or performer back in the day married (at least once) a Jewish guy.

Rhonda already knew something was up in that pic at r103.

Lol r104. I think they told Rhonda when she was 13. I wonder how she handled it then.

Interesting to see them in the recording studio.

R105

"When she was 13, she was told Gordy was her biological father. Ross Kendrick has said that the revelation came as a relief. She was beginning to notice physical differences between herself and her younger sisters. The revelation gave her an answer to the situation. "

She better thank her lucky stars. Dear ole Dad is 91 and worth 400 million! Jackpot!

It wasn't as if everyone didn't know already, so Ms. Ross and Mr. Ellis had to come clean. Rhonda looked nothing like her father but very much looked like Berry Gordy, who by the way was always at the Ellis household or otherwise around.

This is usual when a man marries a woman to lend legitimacy to her by-blow. People look at the kid, then at the father and quickly put two and two together. Sadly many parents deny, lie or otherwise stick to their version of truth til the grave; all the while ignorant or perhaps willing to sacrifice the child's sanity for their own easy conscious.

Ironically Berry Gordy's "relationship" with Diana Ross lasted longer than a majority of his marriages.

Sorry, bad link above corrected.

[quote] Like many people battling emotional trauma, she used alcohol to self medicate.

That doesn't excuse unprofessional behavior.

[quote] Do you know how many people self medicate because of some past emotional trauma?

That doesn't excuse unprofessional behavior.

Flo couldn't keep it together, and so she was rightly fired.

Ross' brother was pretty damn hot. Drugs took him. He and his wife were murdered in the 1990s.

Wow Diana's brother was way handsome. He wrote this song for Marvin Gaye

Well if you want to talk about 1950's or 1960's AA girl groups with crossover appeal, the Shirelles beat Diana Ross and Supremes

The Shirelles predated The Supremes but they didn't get all those TV appearances or supperclub dates. They didn't ascend quite as high.

The Shirelles and the Marvellettes were girl groups. Gordy saw the writing on the wall and decided the Supreme would be more elegant and sexy. He glammed them up and they got more attention.

[quote] It does seem nearly every famous AA female actress or performer back in the day married (at least once) a Jewish guy.

Don't I know it!

How did I not know Rockwell was Gordy's son and Rhonda's half brother?

It wasn't just Gordy. There were more urbane R&B acts of the early 1960s (e.g. Jerry Butler) but they didn't get the TV exposure (Butler didn't even get to sing his his "Moon River" on the Oscars). The civil rights movement facilitated an act like The Supremes getting the exposure they did.

Yes, the late Minnie Riperton landed herself one fine hanging man.

To this day Richard Rudolph still tears up when speaking about his late wife. Their marriage was cut so tragically short by MR's death, but at least they had the two children which brings some comfort.

R121 It still kinda blows my mind that Maya Rudolph's mother is Minnie Riperton!

Shirelles broke ground that allowed for the Supremes to follow as they proved an AA girl group could crossover and be accepted.

Will You Love Me Tomorrow transcended racial barriers and was played on radio stations all over, it wasn't considered "black music".

Luther Dixon deserves credit for that. He was advised to put strings on to make the songs "cross over."

The Chantels had already crossed over to the pop charts, however briefly.

Who are “Dianna Ross” or “Barry Gordy”?

I think Florence would have fit in much better with a group like The Marvellettes.

The Supremes are listed as having 12 Number 1 songs, but actually Mary and Cindy had no part of the last one "Someday We'll Be Together".

I like Diana a lot, but I still think it was shitty not to let Mary and Cindy have their moment to shine on that Motown 25 special.

I think Florence would have fit in much better with a group like The Marvellettes.

The Supremes are listed as having 12 Number 1 songs, but actually Mary and Cindy had no part of the last one "Someday We'll Be Together".

I like Diana a lot, but I still think it was shitty not to let Mary and Cindy have their moment to shine on that Motown 25 special.

[quote]"When she was 13, she was told Gordy was her biological father. Ross Kendrick has said that the revelation came as a relief. She was beginning to notice physical differences between herself and her younger sisters. The revelation gave her an answer to the situation. "

I'se rich.

[Quote] I still think it was shitty not to let Mary and Cindy have their moment to shine on that Motown 25 special.

They got their moment here...

Help me, Rhonda!

[quote] They got their moment here...

Kelly Rowland was the only one consistently on pitch. "You Can't Hurry Love" is terrible. Did she hit one correct note in that segment?

Berry Gordy has eight children littered about by various wives and mistresses. Hardly think Rhonda will cop the lot or even a major portion when her father kicks the bucket. Given Mr. Gordy's track record he may still create one or two more before leaving this earth, his estate is going to be very diluted.

You cannot compare Diana Ross and The Supremes with other girl groups of that era or since. They were something much, much removed from the general pack. They were the absolute top, and second place started way, way, way beneath them.

R133, Berry Gordy most likely has established trusts for all of his children. It's not like there's a big shitload of cash sitting in a bank to be divided up. Start thinking like a rich person instead of a hillbilly.

The other girl groups at Motown didn't stand a chance during that era since Diane & co were handed the best songs, best costumes, etc. Miss Ross's blow-job game really paid off.

R136! Can't learn 'im nothin'

Did Mary ever thank Diana for giving the blowjobs that got them the best songs?

[quote]It does seem nearly every famous AA female actress or performer back in the day married (at least once) a Jewish guy.

It started way before Minnie and Diana.

But...Lena married white and GAY, R139.

Ever see a 20 year old Lena Horne doing her thing?

"Lena married white and GAY"

Miss Lena liked the ladies as well, so it was a beard marriage.

Miss Ross got the X Factor

Diana still tours and her fans adore her. I think she still performs just for the fun of it, since she certainly isn't lacking in money.

r140 The point was JEWISH, not white.

R145, I get that. WHITE and Jewish. But LH wanted a man who wouldn't touch her, so gay too. You wouldn't want this touching you either.

R134, agreed. But who you think would come in second? The Marvellettes? Martha and the Vandellas? The Shirrelles? The Ronnettes?

In the '00s there was a fantastic label called Hip-O-Select that was reissuing both the Supremes and Diana Ross (solo) Motown albums. Beautifully done, with unreleased songs and alternate takes. Love listening to how Ross would approach a song with different takes. Just fantastic. Gordy made the right call. Ross just doesn't get enough credit.

Berry Gordy could spot a star. Smokey Robinson, Michael Jackson... and Diane.

147, maybe Destiny's Child, but again the Ross Supremes were in a stratosphere of their own making.

The Expanded Editions have continued to be released. "Supremes a Go Go" and "Sing Holland Dozier Holland" are the most recent to get the 2 disc treatment.

Those came out two years ago r151. Not that recent. And nothing on the horizon as of this year.

Diane looks great in R144's clip. That woman is ageless. What year was that concert?

It's from 2020. Feb 23rd. The video was posted on the 27th.

R144 I'm shocked that Ross is singing live. I just assumed she'd be moving her mouth to a track.

WOW! One month shy of her 76th birthday, too. Damn. I've no doubt whatsoever that Diana Ross was born to entertain the world.

[quote] but actually Mary and Cindy had no part of the last one "Someday We'll Be Together".

They had no part on the 11th number one hit either - “Love Child.” As a matter of fact, as soon as they became Diana Ross & The Supremes, all the recordings - except for the collaborations with the Temptations - were really Diana Ross & the Andantes (Motown’s in-house back-up singers).

Cindy was pretty much there for the live performances, but she didn’t get to record much until after Diane left the group. All those post-Flo non-number ones like No Matter What Sign You Are, I’m Living In Shame, Forever Came Today etc. we’re all Andantes back-ups. It seemed more economically feasible to just fly Diane in from touring and have her nail 4-5 sings in a couple of sessions, with the backup tracks already laid on.

And no, this wasn’t the reason sales dropped. Groups were on their way out in the late sixties and many fans were also a bit miffed about the personnel and title changes. It became evident that it wasn’t Flo and Mary on the background but at that point no one cared.

The biggest groups in history til then all split up within the same year or two.

It’s like putting Pence in charge and then being too jealous so you push him to the sidelines when he starts getting attention.

On what chart was "No Matter What Sign You are" a number one? And "Forever Came Today"?

All of which shows you how hard Diane worked - much harder than the other two - and up until they became DR&TS, they were all getting paid the same exact amount of money each.

Of course Diane got other benefits from being an insider. As in, Berry’s dick “insid’er” pussy.

[quote] On what chart was "No Matter What Sign You are" a number one? And "Forever Came Today"?

What part of “non-number ones” was not clear to you?

In the end, Gordy did to Ross what he had done to them all. Before she left Motown to sign with RCA and while looking at the mere 200K she had in the bank she asked "Can you believe what Barry has done to me?" And the church said "Mm hm, amen."

On a lighter note, who knew they pushed deodorant?

I think Diana and Mary were paid the same until Ross went solo. Cindy probably didn't get a third.

I think that by the time they became Diana Ross and the Supremes, they were treated as two separate acts (at least that was Gordy’s marketing strategy) and therefore allowed to charge a lot more than when they were just the Supremes.

The Supremes already commanded x dollars per performance and that wasn’t changed. But now they had this other person, Diana Ross, charging separately. So I’m sure Mary got much more than Cindy (a big attraction and incentive for her to stay- she was getting the lion’s share of the supremes’ fee) but Diane’s compensation was a separate negotiation.

In the end there was not much left saved for them because creative accounting, personal expenses, and record-company covered expenses (everything from transportation to studio time to luxurious accommodations) were deducted from their fees. Typical record label fare - except Motown was notorious for ripping off its artists / who nonetheless got great hits/exposure which was never the case after many of them left (including Diane!)

The Primettes (when they were still taking turns with lead vocals)

[Quote] The Supremes already commanded x dollars per performance and that wasn’t changed. But now they had this other person, Diana Ross, charging separately. So I’m sure Mary got much more than Cindy (a big attraction and incentive for her to stay- she was getting the lion’s share of the supremes’ fee) but Diane’s compensation was a separate negotiation.

Did Mary say that in her book?

Diana has an infectious smile that looked natural and as if she was having fun. That’s part of what gave her charisma. (Tony Bennett has the same smile and uses it in the same way.)

R135, think James Brown, Aretha and Prince before assuming that all people with money don't act like hillbillies when it comes to estate planning.

Berry is famously "me first" and tight with finances and info. And I knew Esther to observe it.

There was a lot of drama behind the scenes at Motown. Domestic abuse, spousal abandonment, drug and alcohol addictions, rape, petty jealousies, etc. Diana wanted no part of that scene and was determined to get herself out of that cycle. She envisioned herself as queen and acted like one. It won her no friends among the other ladies at Motown, but she didn't care. She had her sights set on a big career in Hollywood, a house in Beverly Hills, top education for her children, etc., so she worked her ass off to be a big star.

Flo and Mary, on the other hand, didn't aim so high and ended up less successful.

Berry Gordy's side of the story....

"When the Supremes went on the Dick Clark tour, they were nobody when they went out and they were number one (on pop charts) when they came back," he says. "Yet in Mary Wilson's book, she was saying when they got back from the Dick Clark tour they didn't have any money. Of course not, because I practically had to pay Dick Clark to get them on the tour."

Mary talks in her book about them going into Saks 5th Avenue and buying loads of stuff, so they had to have some money.

Mary and Cindy talked of moving to Beverly Hills. Cindy lost her money very quickly when she left to have a baby.

I must admit I always got her mixed-up with Kay Ballard and never knew which one was which? Maybe if she would have been the break out star instead of Diana she would have been better defined in my minds eye.

Diana also had that uncomfortable-looking posture she assumed when she sang. Despite it looking awkward, it was distinctive and added to her charisma.

It wasn't just her own group she left in the dust. It was the whole company. Those who lives through the era remember Ross as being a super-bad bitch!

How come no one remembers the names of those other girls that sang back up for Beyoncé in that starter group she had?

[Quote] It wasn't just her own group she left in the dust.

Stevie wasn't disoriented. For obvious reasons.

[quote] It's not unusual, and in those days there was no legal recourse, so it wasn't reported.

Do you think rape only became a crime in the recent past? In 1960, when Ballard was raped there were officially 17,190 rapes reported around the country. It was illegal and people did go to jail for it, even then. The main issue was that most women wouldn't report it because many people treated the woman not as a victim, blaming them for getting raped. And, the idea was that a raped woman was "spoiled goods" that no man would ever want to marry, therefore bringing shame to herself and her family. Yes, Ballard was black, but the cops, even racist ones, would have no problem pursuing her rape, because it was another black that committed it. The only time that it would have almost completely impossible, at the time, for a black woman to get any justice would have been if she accused a white man.

What was the story of Flo's rape? I never heard about it.

Pretty girls don't get raped. Diana Ross was a S*T*A*R* from a million miles away. I wasn't even born until 1983, but everything about Ross's voice and visage made her a star. Things happen because they're meant to. They used to. Motown changed the world forever. Diana Ross' silvery syncopated unusually sweet voice is unmistakable. Give Berry Gordy some credit. He knew what he was doing. Most of the Motown greats had a mess of a life from shady business practices, bad habits, overwork and being servants who had to go to charm school to suck the white man's dick. Served their career's well but didn't stop the drug abuse and wife beating and low level behaviour. Poor kids made famous and cheated out of their money. Miss Ross made sure that didn't happen to her. There IS no mistake that Diana Ross became the lead singer and the only SUPERSTAR from the superduper Supremes.

Fun Fact: The word superstar was invented to refer to Ross and Streisand. Talents and unusual beauties who took the world by storm at much the same time. Such glamour and beautiful singing. Hit records that sounded different. Women with enormous amounts of personal style and charisma. Diana Ross was a pretty great singer. You'll never mistake her voice for anyone else. Plus she had all that other ish.

Florence Ballard had a sad life, I guess. Lots of people can sing. She didn't know how to play.

OK. My father's friend was Florence Ballard's cousin by marriage. Yes she had emotional problems, and trauma, and suffered from alcoholism. But Flo was also in an abusive relationship with a druggie. Her family tried hard to get her to leave him but it was one of those in and out things. Flo had kids too. Anyway, as I understood it, Diana and Barry Gordy was more than him screwing the talent. They had a full blown affair. Barry was always playing around but he had a real thing for Diana Ross.

Then she got pregnant and it came at a bad time. Because she was ready to go solo, and there was this build up and bookings, etc. and she wouldn't get rid of the baby (Thank goodness because I do like her) so then she married the road manager talent guy Bob Silberstein and everyone thought it was his kid, but then she had another kid with him. Whatever.

That whole "Touch Me in the Morning" thing was good bye, to Barry. He was genuinely fond of her. Mary Wilson was always jealous. And truthfully, the guys loved some Mary Wilson when they were a group. Seemed like Diana's appeal was to predominantly white audiences, because my dad told me most Black men he knew, including himself, was crazy about Mary. Diana did help Flo's kids out. She felt very bad about how she treated Flo.

There was a lot of truth in Dreamgirls. When Beyonce and Jamie Foxx had that showdown and he told her how he made her, and her voice was nothing, whew! Nothing like that ever happened between Barry & Diana, that I know of, but you could almost feel the truth in that speech. Flo's voice was powerful. But it would be years before mainstream America caught up with and appreciated the divas with the powerful voices. And honestly back then, Dionne was the queen.

Mary got the best dick Tom Jones for starters.

Nonsense. Etta James and Tina Turner made waves in the early 1960s. And Aretha owned the Hot 100 charts as a solo female from 1967 onwards. Flo left in '67. Her recordings were subpar. I think any Supremes fan wishes she was able to get herself together but that doesn't mean she could have been a star singer. Personally, I think she might have done well on a sitcom - a Janet Dubois type part, perhaps.

For a while, it seemed that Barry would get the best of both worlds when the split happened...Diana's solo career AND the Supremes. They started off well with "Stoned Love", "Nathan Jones" and a few others, but soon petered out.

Berry Gordy lost interest in the Supremes after Mary refused to support him in replacing Jean Terrell, ca 1970. Then around 1972, after Motown moved to Los Angeles to concentrate on making films for Miss Ross and others, Gordy lost interest in all his musical acts. Without proper promotion of their once successful act, Mary enlisted her husband Pedro to promote and manage them, which he did poorly.

Despite the clutch of well performing singles, the sales of the New Supremes' albums were pretty poor. They also lost their Vegas spot a year of so into the new lineup.

R182

Dreamgirls was for all intent and purposes the Florence Ballard story. Yes, things were changed around and so forth, but everyone knew the book was about Diana Ross and the Supremes including the member who got "kicked out".

IIRC at the time Ms. Ross was very upset about the musical and considered (or did?) take legal action. Those who thought old grudges and wrongs from early Diana Ross/Supremes days was gone thus Dreamgirls could skate on by didn't add up sums correctly. It didn't take media long to take up Florence Ballard, and Diana Ross wasn't having it (again IIRC), that is her being portrayed as some sort of bitch who drove Ms. Ballard to her grave.

Diana Ross famously said of the play - "this isn't just some story, this is my fucking life." Sounds so grand, but it was very true.

Years later when the film came out, she was on Letterman singing her not so great version of "I Will Survive." He asked Diana if she'd seen the movie. She said "no, but I plan to go - with my lawyers." DIVA.

Ross actually tried to save Ballard's house but the husband wanted the cash and Ross was not prepared to throw money away like that.

R189 Wait, did she dismissively call it “a play” or was that you?

No way was Ross singing "I Will Survive" on Letterman in the mid 2000s.

Diana's hatred of Dreamgirls was largely a myth. She had no problem singing music from the show.

[quote]Years later when the film came out, she was on Letterman singing her not so great version of "I Will Survive." He asked Diana if she'd seen the movie. She said "no, but I plan to go - with my lawyers." DIVA.

Wow, did she really say that? Miss Ross is undoubtably the Boss...so smooth!

I wrote that line.

It was "More Today Than Yesterday."

So I had the song wrong R192. I'm not 70 fucking years old. But I got the quote right. Because I saw it. Right bitch? Take note R194. See the 3:25 mark here. Diana Ross was justified to be pissed that her life story was taken and plagiarised in such blatant fashion. With nothing but a name change and no compensation. She's hilariously special.

I love watching how surviving Eldergays react when AIATU is even mentioned. They lose their shit and practically start crying and fanning themselves.

SUPREME BEINGS: WHAT 'DREAMGIRLS' GETS RIGHT

Thanks for that clip, r197

Truth Behind Sheryl Lee Ralph's Feud with Diana Ross

black female entertainers just can NOT get along with each other, no matter what.

r198=Miss Lake Dardanelle

[Quote] black female entertainers just can NOT get along with each other, no matter what.

Lies!

This thread is too long to read it all. I assume somebody has talked about it upthread. I'm pretty sure Diana had a kid with Berry Gordy. Maybe that is the simple answer of why she got the lead? And she does have charisma and once she gained weight after she was a teenager and got her wig game going, she became quite attractive in an unusual way. Diana's unusual looks made her a standout and also her strange but compelling voice. Nobody sounded like her.

She didn’t play the fiddle you dummyhead, she sang.

R183

Mary Wilson got more than Tom Jones... add Steve McQueen to that list.

All she got was dinner and a wet ass.

Miss Ross became a much better singer in her thirties and forties. Her voice became stronger, her phrasing more meaningful - her already great musicality just got better. Her voice became more pliable and she she always had the lovely way with the beat. She could rush it or sing behind it or in sexy syncopation on it. Her voice was delicate for sure, but unusually clear and sweet. That's the way a female voice should age - yet seldom does in pop music. She had it all over. She's a star.

Yup.

Touch me in the morning, then just walk away...

Good morning heartache

She represented her ancestral roots by performing an African dance routine on the special TCB. Pretty impressive!

Well with all those Diana Ross posts it becomes evident that poor Florence will always be in her shadow and displaced by her.

[quote] There was a lot of drama behind the scenes at Motown. Domestic abuse, spousal abandonment, drug and alcohol addictions, rape, petty jealousies, etc. Diana wanted no part of that scene and was determined to get herself out of that cycle. She envisioned herself as queen and acted like one. It won her no friends among the other ladies at Motown, but she didn't care. She had her sights set on a big career in Hollywood, a house in Beverly Hills, top education for her children, etc., so she worked her ass off to be a big star. Flo and Mary, on the other hand, didn't aim so high and ended up less successful.

Right she ran to Hollywood where there were no drug/alcohol addiction, no sexual assault, marital infidelities nor spousal abuse and no petty feelings/emotions like envy/jealousy, none of those black people problems found at Motown.

Ross worked her ass off and so did many others at Motown. And generally speaking most people want the best for their children. Which is what motivates many people to work their asses off, no matter what their job may be.

[quote] black female entertainers just can NOT get along with each other, no matter what.

Right unlike white women who are the best friend of whoever is in front of their face.

I got you dance number, hussies.

[quote] Did Mary say that in her book?

Berry’s strategy about turning one act into two and charging accordingly is all over every motown special, article and book, including Mary’s.

[Quote] Berry’s strategy about turning one act into two and charging accordingly is all over every motown special, article and book, including Mary’s.

So everyone got a larger performance fee?

R216 Stay in your lane, second-rate!

I was 4 years old when Ain't No Mountain High Enough came out, and I remember seeing her and being transfixed - even moreso on her version of Reach Out I'll Be There (very similar reworking with the whole talk-sing thing; I think I thought she was singing to me); if you listen to any of the post-Flo singles she IS the record - kittenish, in control, and ALWAYS on point.

Their decline in chart-fortunes coincided with HDH leaving (the credits for Love Child involve an army of writers) - that said, the Jean Terrell years have some great singles (Up The Ladder To The Roof, Nathan Jones, Automatically Sunshine, Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love and the criminally overlooked Bad Weather), but label indifference and shitty management killed the momentum. By the time Scherrie Payne was on board the creative train had left the station (used to dreamt Alton McClain & Destiny's It Must Be Love instead - they would have slayed).

Flo's best Supremes moment was in Love Is Here & Now You're Gone - Martha Reeves said that's where she (Flo) almost steals it away on the final bridge - it's my fave Supremes single, of which there isn't one I don't love, but there they all really are Supreme.

It's a shame that Diana Ross doesn't get the credit she deserves. She sang the lead on EIGHTEEN number one songs - six as a solo artist and 12 as a Supreme. She received an Oscar nomination for her very first movie, Lady Sings the Blues. And even if Mahogany is a camp classic, the whole film was designed around HER and she designed the costumes. That was pretty incredible for a black actress in the '70s. It's still a struggle to create star vehicles for black actresses even today, although it's gotten a bit better (Taraji P. Henson, Gabrielle Union).

The '80s started great for Diana - hit songs from the CHIC-produced diana album, and then Endless Love. And her huge deal with RCA. The image of her standing on the Central Park stage against the rain and wind. But then things turned - the Motown 25 show, Mary Wilson's book, Randy's book. She was seen as a huge diva and a bitch. Maybe so, but people forget how hard she worked.

I don't think it was until the '90s when people began to reassess Ross' achievements. Whenever Ross was on the Oprah Winfrey Show, you could tell how much it meant for Winfrey to interview her. Winfrey would repeatedly say how important it was for her to see a black woman on TV, in lavish dresses and being a true star. RuPaul has said the same. Winfrey reminded the world of the impact the Supremes, and Ross herself, had.

And those songs have not aged at all, including her solo songs. She recorded some fantastic albums. Listen to those early Ashford and Simpson-produced albums. Stunning. Or the shelved To the Baby album. For myself, I was introduced to jazz because of Lady Sings the Blues. And her shelved Blue album - released in the mid-00s - is a terrific album.

And she was a damn fine actress. She really was incredible in Lady Sings the Blues. It's a shame Mahogany and The Wiz were not able to follow up on that promise but she was able to lead three films in a time where there were not many leading black actresses. She was also very good in the '90s TV film, Out of Darkness.

She's The Boss!

She took on too much control when she went to RCA. But it gave her financial security.

I wouldn’t call her a black actress, she was a black woman who acted in movie. Kind of the same way for Oprah.

Oh please. She got plenty of credit and acclaim IN HER TIME. She hasn't done anything of note in years. I would assume she's just fine enjoying her life and her money.

I Ross really going to be remembered much when her fans die?

I have my doubts.

I meant, of course, her fans who are now living.

R221 = Diane

Hallaloo R221. Great post. Diana has beautiful sensitivity as a singer and actress. Incredible and instinctive talent. Motown only gave her the sheen. When she had great songs she sold them with remarkable versatility and drama and taste. The Boss is as good a performance of any song of the seventies. When her songs were more maudlin - she tapped into the evocative sweetness of her voice and moved us anyway. Her great fame was before my time, but her voice is impossible to ignore. NO ONE sounds like Diana Ross and No one sounds like Diana Ross and The Supremes. It's irresistible. music. She's a fine actress too. Likeability has nothing to do with talent. Never did. Never will.

If you can find it, watch "Lady Sings the Blues." Diana was still in her 20s. She doesn't really sound like Billie Holiday but her acting was stupendous. People were surprised at the time she could act so well.

I think doing the Wiz is what really lead to her decline. No one was going to buy her as Dorothy at that age and she took what could have been a career launching part away from someone else. And what was up with her hair, what was that supposed to be?

[QUOTE] And what was up with her hair, what was that supposed to be?

Natural.

One film didn't kill Diana Ross's film career. One film killed the first glamorous black superstar's film career. Everything Whitney would later do, Diana might have done. But the timing was wrong for a beautiful black superstar. She wasn't allowed to have a failure. It's not exactly great yet for beautiful black leading ladies. They have to play tragic and broken or hookers or drug addicts or maids or "sassy" to get recognition and roles in major films.

Lady Sings The Blues may still be the best and most fully realized theatrical film that any young black actress has ever starred in. Diana got to be everything and show all or her talents, beauty, glamour and unknown depths of enormous power and artistic imagination. You never get the feeling she is being directed. Of course she was, but her own bold ideas come through clearly in that film. Her portrayal is both glamorous and very raw. Like Billie Holiday herself. Ross is pretty astonishing. And it's a pretty good movie. Not exactly the story of Billie Holiday, but a great big story. Diana takes those songs and sings them in Diana Ross style but doesn't leave us feel lacking. It's not hype. A great soundtrack still. Lady Sings The Blues is a pleasure to watch - when you're in the mood for schmaltz and pain. Diana Ross earned and deserved all the rewards that others later received - just for being black.

[quote]I think doing the Wiz is what really lead to her decline.

I agree. The Wiz looked like a lucrative vehicle for her but it just didn't work. It's too bad Berry Gordy wouldn't release her to do A Star Is Born. If she had done that movie, she could have cemented herself more firmly as a movie star.

[quote] One film killed the first glamorous black superstar's film career.

One of the problems with The Wiz, is that not only is Diana too old for the role, but they made her look completely non glamorous. Compare her to Judy in The Wizard of Oz, her character was supposed to be a poor Kansas farm girl, but they still gave her the full MGM star beauty treatment, which works fine because it is a fantasy film. Whereas, Diana, in The Wiz, looks like she just stepped out of the subway, especially that hair. And it isn't because it is natural hair, a large afro would have been fine but that short half afro just doesn't look good. Hell, Wilona on Good Times supposedly lived in the projects but was much more glamorous, and that was just a sitcom, not a major motion picture. Speaking of Good Times, I'm not a huge Janet Jackson fan, but she was of the age that she would have been a much better choice for Dorothy. She would have been a few years younger than Dorothy's 16 years of age, but it would have worked better than Diana who was in her mid 30s.

^ reductive nonsense from some old white man. Diana Ross was a victim of racism, pure and simple. Anyone who thinks that Liza Minella playing herself (aka singing and dancing badly) in Cabaret deserved to win over one of the greatest and most seismic screen debut performances of all time by Miss Ross - just don't get it. Miss Ross is and was a very special talent.

She deserves no comparison to "Wilona" in that racist pandering Amos and Andy shitshow aka Good Times. Diana Ross was the most glamorous, funky, beautiful, versatile female star of them all. Of the ones who sing.

Do old white fags not know that they're racist?

Whitney would have looked cute.

Jackson would have been compared unfavorably to Stephanie Mills.

R235 I never said that, I loved Diana Ross in The Lady Sings the Blues(though I also like Liza in Cabaret). My point was that Diana Ross was totally miscast in The Wiz, and she did not look glamorous or beautiful in THAT film, which was a major problem. If you have a star known for being glamorous and you put them in a fantasy film and deliberately make them not glamorous, it doesn't work.

You seem to have an irrational hatred of Good Times. You must have really hated the outpouring of love for it on black twitter in December, when they did the live remake. If you can't admit that Ja'net Dubois was extremely glamorous and beautiful on that show you have an issue. There was also a much more glamorous and beautiful black film star in the 1970s, who could also sing, that should have had a much bigger career Diahann Carroll!

Also, I'm not old, I'm 35.

I don't think many would described Garland as glamorous in The Wizard of Oz.

*describe

The only black female movie star of the 1970s was Pam Grier. And she was a b-movie star. Ross had too few movies. Carroll even more so.

Compared to Diana in The Wiz or Fairuza Balk in Return to Oz, she was.

[quote]She hasn't done anything of note in years.

Because she demands a certain amount of control. And because she just doesn't want to work that hard anymore. She went through a lot of shit in the late 90's and early 2000's that changed her perspective on her career. She's truly happy spending time with her family and doing the occasional greatest hits shows.

She was supposed to go in the studio this year and work with Mark Ronson on a comeback album, but that's been cancelled along with a summer European tour and the headlining spot at Glastonbury (which they had been trying for years to get her to do)

But she's had plenty of opportunities. Clive Davis courted her for several years back in the mid 2000's to get her to sign to his label, but she didn't want to because she'd have to relinquish some control. Tyler Perry asked many times for Diana to do a movie about a veteran jazz singer in Paris. He even got her kids Tracee and Evan involved to persuade her, but she refused. Alicia Keys, Pharrell and Nile Rodgers also have offered their services for new material. She just doesn't want to be bothered with the promotional aspect of it, so she turns them down.

The material they've offered probably factored into the decision.

Diahann Carroll was not a global superstar. Or a pop singer. Or a woman with hit records. She was a very pretty black skin woman with white features. Old white fags and white ladies often cite her as example of a beautiful " black woman." Yeah, she was black.

I worked with Diahann for a year in Sunset BLVD in Toronto. She was a lot better as Norma Desmond than people think. With Sexy Rexy Smith. Diahann wasn't really a bitch. But she was grande and bitchy. Fun if you amused her. Basically a waste of time offstage.

Old white men and their mommy always would come up with D Carroll's name as example of a pretty black woman. She was beautiful. But nothing like Miss Ross. Your second favorite is always Angela Basset - am I right? You don't even understand your own biases R238. Darker skin women with completely white facial features. Ha. Diana Ross was black. A dark redbone woman with full lips and protruding eyes and a big ass on a skinny body. THE BOSS. Gorgeous.

The less said about Good Times, the better. An embarrassment then and now. For old men and women only. The worst kind of nostalgia. You ain't 35 fool. Stand by your old man opinions and biases and try to learn something new this evening. I see you R238.

Again, does no one see the irony that poor Florence has been pushed aside in her own god damn thread and it’s all become about Diana. Or as Jan would say Diana, Diana, Diana!!! Another trio overshadowed by the alpha female.

And this person going on and on about LSTB, a story that just reaffirmed the drugged out ruin of African American musicians feeding into the racism that already existed does no favors. Lady Day at Emerson’s Bar and Grill is a more uplifting delivery of the Billie Holiday story by a far superior actress and singer.

[QUOTE] Lady Day at Emerson’s Bar and Grill is a more uplifting delivery of the Billie Holiday story by a far superior actress and singer.

But she sho’ is ugleeeeeee!!!! Ha HA!!!!!!!

Much was made about Diana's appearance at Flo's funeral. Mary goes into it in detail in Dreamgirl..

At the Motown Reunion, Diane pushed me off the stage.

Feeding the children.

Ross looked a million dollars.

Aretha's dad performed (?) the funeral.

While I concede that Diana acted like a diva at the Motown 25 anniversary special, let's not pretend that Mary wasn't stirring up some shit!

I love reading the account in J. Randy Taraborrelli's Call Her Miss Ross. Before Mary and Cindy were supposed to go out, it was either Marvin Gaye or another Motown legend told her in regards to Diana and the fur shawl Miss Ross was wearing: "Step on that fur, Mary!!"

The link mentions 50k that Florence won in a suit shortly before her death but that the money couldn't be accounted for.... It sounds like Ross made the right choice not to give the husband the money to save Florence's house.

Diane gave me a loan.

With interest.

Bitch.

[quote] While I concede that Diana acted like a diva at the Motown 25 anniversary special, let's not pretend that Mary wasn't stirring up some shit!

I never heard the full story. What shit was Mary stirring up?

The story is that Mary told Cindy at the rehearsal: "For the real performance, every time Diana takes a step forward, we take a step." They didn't do it in the rehearsal so Ross was rattled. There were reports of a pushing match. I think Mary also pulled the red dress look at the last minute as well.

I guess the video at the link is a retake of the number. There wasn't much stage for Ross or anyone to move forward much.

R251 and r252: this is why I miss Jet magazine. They went full in on the black gossip. I forgot what a circus Flo's funeral was and how Diana tried to step in and console the children like she knew them all along.

Apparently, Flo's daughters call Mary and Diana "Aunt Mary" and "Aunt Diane" so maybe she did know them somewhat.

They were probably told to call them that by their father who wanted a new "sponsor."

Mary wore her stage outfit to Flo's funeral?

R256, Supposedly, Mary and Cindy went into rehearsals thinking they were going to sing a medley of Supremes hits, which is what they were told, but Diana nixed that idea, preferring instead to sing one of her solo hits and one Supremes song. And, they were only given 15 minutes to rehearse their movements, so after several years of not performing together, Mary and Cindy (especially Cindy, who had retired from the music scene), weren't exactly confident in going on stage. So Mary told Cindy, "Don't worry, every time Diane steps forward, we step forward."

But then, as you see from the video, minutes before going on, Diana decides to enter from the back of the theater without telling anybody but the production crew. So all the talent backstage are thinking, "Where's Diana? Where did she go?" When she finally emerged from the audience, the people backstage were egging Mary on to do something. Mary does by brazenly upstaging Diana and taking over lead vocals, and inviting Berry to come up onstage, which Diana had already planned to do. So Diana pushed down Mary's hand holding her mic and said "It's being taken care of, Mary." Others say she pushed her.

Mary Wells and Martha Reeves were also pissy that night because they were only given 30 seconds to sing their hits.

[quote]Liza Minella

Your gay card is hereby revoked.

Sorry. LiSa Minella.

R216. HA! Miss Thing was auditioning for Anita, dream ballet and all.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

"Mary Wells and Martha Reeves were also pissy that night because they were only given 30 seconds to sing their hits."

Which worked out fine for both of them. By that point, neither one of them could carry a tune in a bucket.

R261 For an album called "High Energy" those were some lazy ass Supremes. Only 4 songs on each side?

Here’s the movie. I love the washer woman’s song...”There ain’t nothin I can do, nothin I can say…”

Do you know where you’re going to, do you like the things that life is showing you?

R269, here's the deal Lady singing your song

Thank you r271, I love that song!

R269 That opening credits music was so over-the-top. It sounded like a Dragnet Symphony.

"Etta James and Tina Turner made waves in the early 1960s. And Aretha owned the Hot 100 charts as a solo female from 1967 onwards."

Sure. But unlike Ross, there were not show business "personalities." They're people you wouldn't see hosting a network variety show like Hollywood Palace or the Tonight Show. Neither were featured in fashion layouts; neither were on multiple magazine covers. Being a personality goes way beyond hit records, and it can live on years after one hit record or movie if the actor/singer has what it takes. This is something that cannot be learned. See R181.

What magazine covers was Ross appearing on that Aretha wasn't?

yadddddddd

Unless you lived during the time, I don't think that people have a firm grasp on just how BIG Diana Ross was in the entertainment business. She was a HUGE, HUGE world-wide super-star.

^ Diana Ross was a glamour girl, a star, a personality. Aretha was not in that category. Tina Turner was not in that category. Dionne tried hard, but she was not in that category.

Did she know where she was going to? Did she like the things that life was showing her?

She looks like shit on that R277 cover.

Did she just pull that wig out of a washing machine?

She was a pretty little thing

What year was that photo taken R281?

A case of the cream just naturally rose to the top?

r282

Early in her solo career, circa 1970/1971.

By the mid to late 1960s, Dionne dressed beautifully.

R285 to distract from that face.

Dion Warwick ain't nothing anymore. She's anachronistic in all the wrong ways. Dusty Springfield is the singer whose work stands the test of that time. And she's super cool and intriguing. Better singer and voice.

Diana Ross radiates like a STAR 50 years later. She's electric. And in this case, gracious. Gorgeous.

Miss Ross was glamour.

I like Diana Ross now that she's older, but I honestly never "got" her when she was at the pinnacle of her career. She did a good job in Lady Sings the Blues, and Berry Gordy tried SO hard to buy her the damned Oscar. She did get nominated. But the real revelation in that movie wasRichard Pryor who walked away with the movie. And of course there was Billie D. Williams.

Where does Diana live now that she sold her Greenwich CT house?

[quote]Billie D. Williams

Who's she?

Is Billy Dee family?

[quote] Where does Diana live now that she sold her Greenwich CT house?

Probably CA, where I believe all of her children are.

R292 You must have missed the brouhaha in December hen he came out as gender fluid and a few days later walked it back by saying he didn’t know what that meant.

[quote]I like Diana Ross now that she's older, but I honestly never "got" her when she was at the pinnacle of her career.

Diana was the ish. What's not to get? Even when she screwed up the words, she's tense and her voice shakes - but she gets there. A shimmering presence. I was born decades after this - but that bitch was a star.

Bitch, this is my thread!

Cue the requisite “I’ve posted this before but WTF.”

An obscenely wealthy heiress friend of mine hired Diane for her birthday back in 2006 ($2 million cash for a 45-minute set, in case you were wondering). The heiress’ staff hated her because- as sweet as she is to her kids and her fans - Diane is very demanding on the help, professionals, agents, managers, and any other people that n the clock.

It was a garden party and she requested three large tents - one for her, one for her personal guests, and one for staff, managers, and service people to drop and pick-up stuff. She also needed a monitor with lyric screen because - even though fans know the song’s by heart - Where Did Our Love Go and Baby Love were well over 40 years old by then, and Miss Diva has performed over 3000 songs by 2006. Other than that she had no other asks, and you know what? Bitch deserves every requisite and every penny because Miss Ross put on a spectacular show, even in a private household.

My friend liked hiring acts who may have been experiencing a shortage of cash or were unknowns participating in a known brand (she had some of the cast of Jersey Boys in 2007). This was right about when Diane had divorced Arnie and her comeback Supremes tour had gone bust.

My friend wanted to hire Michael Jackson for 2008 (in the midst of all kinds of litigation and living in the Middle East) but he went ahead and died.

"$2 million cash for a 45-minute set, in case you were wondering"

To avoid taxes I assume...

Re: Billy Dee Williams, he was obviously not showing his "feminine side" when he was arrested for beating his wife a couple of decades ago.

In the beginning of the “I hear a symphony” video, Mary looks at Diane showing the look of “WTF are you doing?”

Agree with R10 and R13.

R299, look at that video closely. It's obvious to me that there was tension between Ross and the other two before going on stage. They were jealous of her!

I agree with r301. There was some wig snatching going on in the dressing room. And those dresses do no favors to Mary's figure.

But we know from Mary's book that last minute changes were normal. When they performed Love Child on Ed Sullivan, they rehearsed with all three wearing Love Child shirts. Then performance time came and only Diana was wearing the shirt.

[quote]She did a good job in Lady Sings the Blues, and Berry Gordy tried SO hard to buy her the damned Oscar.

I thought she was excellent. And her acting was better than Liza's. But people nevertheless remember Cabaret and not Lady Sings the Blues.

I think the problem was that she sounded NOTHING like Billie Holliday. And Billie Holiday is so revered, it was seen as sacrilege to have a lightweight pop singer pretend to sing as Holliday. It seemed like such hubris and vanity.

Diana's movie career tanked big time when she conducted that ridiculous, over-the-top campaign to land the role of Dorothy in The Wiz. A thirty something woman playing a teen aged girl. Really??? Even Barry tried to talk her out of it, but she was too egotistical to realize how ridiculous the situation was. Then the movie tanks big time, and Diana's once promising film career goes straight down the proverbial shitter.

As I recall, Diana was planning to sing like Billie Holiday, but Gordy was against that, and told her to perform in her own style. This is on the DVD commentary of Lady Sings The Blues.

It wasn't unusual for singer biopics to feature vocals that bore little/no resemblance to the original singer. I don't think Susan Hayward sounded anything like Lillian Roth, for instance.

And Streisand and Fanny Brice do not sound similar.

R307 She wished!

Interest in Billie Holiday was REVIVED in 1972 with Lady Sings the Blues, she was definitely not a "revered icon" at the time. And while it's hard to find someone who doesn't know Holiday today, most only know her drug history, not her singing.

"But people nevertheless remember Cabaret and not Lady Sings the Blues."

That should be "GAY people nevertheless remember Cabaret and not Lady Sings the Blues." LSTB is shown frequently on cable, more than Cabaret. My 14 year old niece knows LSTB, not Cabaret.

There are also quite a few people who are fond of "The Wiz." That fact is likely a factor in why it was done for one of those live TV productions.

"The Wiz" movie, I mean.

R253, And according to Cindy, they had agreed to wear white and/or black for their stage performance. Diana had on that white/silvery sequined top and black skirt, then Cindy comes out in that white creamy number. And even though Diana called Mary first, Mary waited in the wings to make her grand entrance. So she comes out strutting her stuff, not in white, not in black, but fiery red! Mary clearly came to stir up shit.

Does anyone think the Return to Love tour could have been a success? I only think it could have worked if the reunion had been in the 1980s. But, of course, Mary's book put paid to that as a possibility.

[quote] That should be "GAY people nevertheless remember Cabaret and not Lady Sings the Blues." LSTB is shown frequently on cable, more than Cabaret. My 14 year old niece knows LSTB, not Cabaret.

OK, I get it, that you're a Diana Ross fan, but this remark is foolish.

Cabaret is a much more iconic movie.

R314 Lady Sings the Blues is a beloved classic in the African American community.

R313 It would never be a real reunion without Florence.

Frankly, I don't think Diana or Mary ever had much interest in an actual reunion. Diana, for reasons well known, and because it always generated more publicity for Mary to be feuding than to be working in harmony. Motown 25 was as close as you were going to get.

And yet, Diana attended Mary's New York debut. They weren't always warring. Sadly, Mary took the easy route with her book. Apparently, the original manuscript she submitted was rejected.

R313 Maybe if Ross had been joined by Mary and Cindy. How can you have a reunion with “supremes” you never performed with? It was insulting to the public.

I don't think the general public - this was an arena tour, IIRC - would makes it a success based on Mary and/or Cindy's participation. I think Ross was too long out of "relevancy" to launch a tour like that, whichever Supreme(s) joined her. A UK tour would have been a different story. She still charted in the 1990s over there.

[Quote]Does anyone think the Return to Love tour could have been a success?

Berry Gordy told her not to do it. He knew it wouldn't be successful without Mary and Cindy. Diana took a gamble, and lost. In Diana's defense, working with Mary would've been pure hell, because she's an unpredictable bitch. Even Flo said that Mary was two-faced, and that she (Flo) would prefer to deal with Diana, because you knew exactly where you stood with her, despite her diva attitude.

Mary talks and tears up about Florence while explaining the rape trauma Flo never emotionally recovered from.

Fuck Mary Wilson. She's lucky she has a dress left to wear. Whatever flaws Diana Ross has in her life, career and personality, she can rejoice to not be STUPID Mary, talentless Wilson. And to never see her again. Mary turned down a few million dollars to get publicity for not being able to sing. At home. Return to No Love Lost. Fuck her.

Originally Return To Love was supposed to feature Mary. But Mary wouldn't commit because Diana was getting paid more. Mary thought she should be paid the same amount to stand behind Diana and sing "Ooo, baby, baby, baby."

That’s hard to read R321, but I think you’re right.

May was my favorite Supreme, solely based on her personality during the group’s reign. After Diana left, I assumed she’d be the lead. I watched. She did not have the presence, the personality or voice to take the lead. And her book revealed her to be duplicitous and petty. You shouldn’t have to make a career on rehashing drama from your 20s and 30s.

[Quote] And to never see her again.

No such look for Diana.

Mary should have taken lessons form Otis Williams.

Why did Diana always have the big hair (wig)? Or at least since her solo days. Even on her last tour, she sported that huge hair.

Mary Wilson is lucky to be out of the house to photobomb Diana Ross and Quincy. She's a bilious leech.

*No such luck

[Quote] Why did Diana always have the big hair (wig)? Or at least since her solo days.

No she didn't.

[quote]Mary thought she should be paid the same amount to stand behind Diana and sing "Ooo, baby, baby, baby."

Not true. Mary didn't expect to be paid the same amount as Diana. She wanted a "fair" amount for being a founding Supreme.

Did she name a "fair amount"? I believe the original offer was tripled, which would have made her fee in the 3 million range.

Mary is a dick.

There was no way that Return to Love Tour was going to work.

First, they waited too long. Supremes music will always be beloved but it had been too long. Flo had been dead for almost 25 years. Cindy had retired. And considering what happened at Motown 25 it just wasn't a good idea.

Diana said in an interview in 2000 that basically nothing was going to make Mary happy. And, she was right. I think Mary was offered $2 million versus $20 million (or similar) for Diana.

Also, I think there would have been issues with the set list.

Diana spent a lot of her solo career distancing herself from the Supremes for whatever reason. Look at her solo set lists and most of her Supremes songs are truncated into a 5-minute medley. I think she has been more open in recent years but I think she prefers her solo stuff and jazz repertoire. It's not like Beyoncé who will reunite with Kelly and Michelle for the Super Bowl and Coachella.

Also, Diana and Mary have always had a fractured friendship. Even after Motown 25, they had dinner and neither mentioned what happened that night. As much as Mary wanted to paint Diana as a bitch in her books, she even said Diana helped her with a loan, but, to throw shade, "with interest" LOL

I was supposed to see the RTL show with my ex but we broke up before the scheduled date. I heard from him later that it was a good show.

I wonder if Mary is wealthy enough to retire.

[quote]I wonder if Mary is wealthy enough to retire.

If she were, she wouldn't be begging the Dayton Ramada Inn Airport for a two week gig.

Mary's been busy peddling her new book, "Supreme Glamour."

Mary Wilson is going on tour y'all. Coming to a Non Designated Area Just Outside the Walmart Tire Center NEAR YOU!

If Lady Sings the Blues is "beloved in the African American community" it is because of Billie Dee Williams who was regarded as a major heartthrob back then, and Richard Pryor who really was beloved. Diana was surrounded by talent,. But there was actual resentment because "she can't sing like Billie Holiday." Diana always had more support from white audiences than she did from Black, especially after she went solo.

[quote] If Lady Sings the Blues is "beloved in the African American community" it is because of Billie Dee Williams who was regarded as a major heartthrob back then, and Richard Pryor who really was beloved. Diana was surrounded by talent,. But there was actual resentment because "she can't sing like Billie Holiday." Diana always had more support from white audiences than she did from Black, especially after she went solo.

Utter nonsense.

I love how on Datalounge if someone loves a particular singer or movie, they think that opinion is, ipso facto, widespread.

And will tell you that over and over again, evidence notwithstanding.

[Quote] Diana always had more support from white audiences than she did from Black, especially after she went solo.

If that were true, Ross wouldn't have charted so well on the R&B charts as a solo act.

It's interesting to look at Diana Ross's charting.

She wasn't as popular as I imagined. Her first three solo albums didn't chart very high on Billboard.

If asked, I would have guessed they would have all gone to No. 1 or 2.

Most females were "singles artists" back then. I believe Aretha's bestselling album was "Amazing Grace", a gospel album.

Having been to a Diana Ross concert a few years back, I was floored by how full her voice actually is.

For some reason, on records, her voice sounds thin, but in person it's a big, resonant voice.

Diane's voice got fatter when she did.

It was the gays that propelled Diana to stardom. Had they not supported her, she would have been no more popular than Gladys Knight.

And Diana has never won a competitive Grammy.

But yet Beyawnce and Taylor Swift have several. Chew on that R347.

I can’t r348...because neither of them are worthy.

R345, 🤣

What R339 said.

Exactly R339 and R351. Just ask around and listen to all the 50+ year old black folks who were utterly inspired by Miss Diane. It wasn’t only RuPaul and Oprah, trust me.

R338, what's your fucking problem? Are you so threatened that LSTB is popular today and can overtake your darling Liza's Cabaret that you make up obvious bullshit like that?

There are a lot of successful black female artists, like Beyoncé, who pay tribute to Diana Ross as a trailblazer, opening doors for them. Diana is one of the top selling R&B Solo artists of all time.

Only on Datalounge are these things "still popular:"

Kim Carnes

Olivia Newton John

Connie Francis

Judy Garland

Lady Sings the Blues

^ You forgot Liza Minnelli

Judy Garland just had an Oscar winning biopic, dear. Baby Gumm is eternal.

Who on earth thought Taylor Swift can actually sing?

Those women are green.

In her own autobiography, the Queen of Soul took time out from shading other female singers to praise Diana Ross in Lady Sings the Blues. And we all know how infrequent it was for Aretha Franklin to dish out praise to other females.

It is a beloved film in the African American community and Diana is one of the major reasons why. Yes, the chemistry between her and Billy Dee was incredible (and a reason why they did Mahogany together) and Richard Pryor was excellent in a supporting role, but the whole film was built around Diana and she delivered. Her acting and singing were fabulous and she looked great too. The costumes were more glamorous than what Billie Holiday wore but Diana looked fabulous.

In Lady Sings The Blues, why did they specifically use Billie Holliday? Couldn't they have told the story without specifically using her name, like they did with "Dreamgirls" "The Rose" and "Grace Of My Heart"? That would have avoided comparisons between Holliday and Ross.

[quote] And while it's hard to find someone who doesn't know Holiday today

You don't get out much, do you?

They clearly wanted it to be about Billie and also to have access to her music r361.

[Quote] That would have avoided comparisons between Holliday and Ross.

Are you taking comments upthread seriously? Ross didn't suffer, nor did the movie, because of Holliday's talent/renown.

I wish Diana got to play Josephine Baker. Lynn Whitfield did a great job but I've always wondered how Ross' version would have turned out.

Here's how Ross handles an overzealous male fan trying to stick his tongue down her throat during a performance. "I'm sorry baby. I didn't mean to hurt you. (Turns to audience) See, I BIT HIM!" hahahaha at the 00:20 mark

The New York Times review did like Ross's singing. If fact it is about the only they they liked about the movie.

[quote]"Lady Sings the Blues," the first of what threatens to be a series of so-called entertainments based on the life and hard times of the late, truly great Billie Holiday, poses a tough question: How is it possible for a movie that is otherwise so dreadful to contain such a singularly attractive performance in the title role?It's not as if Diana Ross floats above the film, always remaining somehow disconnected from it, in that superior way that some actors affect when they find themselves in the vicinity of garbage. The former lead singer of the Supremes is on-screen from start to finish, which is to say almost endlessly, but her only apparent limitations are those imposed on her by a screenplay and direction seemingly designed to turn a legitimate legend into a whopper of a cliché. Sidney J. Furie, the director and the three people credited with the screenplay, cannot use the basic truth of their facts as a defense of the film, although the facts have been generalized to protect the innocent (and the people who wouldn't give releases to the producers).

Diana has pure star quality onscreen. Like Streisand, you cannot take your eyes off of her. Even in that mess of a film Mahogany. The Wiz, OTOH, was a disaster from beginning to end and not even she could save that shitshow.

R366 That was a weird exchange. The fan was WAY out of line and assaulted her during a performance.

And yet, she apologizes to him and hugs him.

He should have been thrown out.

R368 The problem with The Wiz -- well, ONE of them -- was that Ross was not the Ross people paid money to see. There was none of the glamour.

R342 Nothing close to a hit in the last 35 years!

Diana Ross's music will never be forgotten. She always does some strange rushing of the beat when she sings this and she doesn't usually belt so forward - but I love her version of Home. And beautiful - forget about it. She's iconic. Ross is nothing like Streisand as a performer - Ross is much more free and she moves beautifully. She just looks flawless.

That's a nice rendition R372. I've ALWAYS preferred Stephanie Mills' version and think she should have played Dorothy in the film version, although I understand why she wasn't cast.

As for Lady Sings The Blues, growing up I don't remember that movie being a Black classic. Maybe it's a generational thing (I grew up in the 80s). I do, however, very much remember The Wiz being a classic, with everybody singing songs from it to this day. Ease on Down the Road anyone?

Connie's great popularity is attested to by the millions of hits her youtube videos receive.

Connie got her box yet?

LSTB is a classic film for several different reasons, and so much so that it was shown several times over the years on TCM.

"The fan was WAY out of line and assaulted her during a performance."

R369, men were used to going too far with women at that time, even freely assaulting them. There was no legal recourse.

I've always wondered if Diana and Streisand know each other. I don't mean best buds or hanging out together, I mean are they friendly acquaintances?

Anyone who doubt's Diana Ross musical and singing ability should go to the 15 minute mark in this murky Carson video and listen to her gorgeous clarity and musicality, the exquisite timing and unique phrasing. Classy as fuck and sad as the rain. This is a rare video, it's fucked up to look at, but it was 10 years before I was born and I would pay to see her sing this music tomorrow. Diana Ross was a SUPERSTAR and she deserved to be. It kind of went to her head and she got a bit too grand in the 80s I guess. But this is a stellar example of her wonderful musical and emotive talent. Amazing. Authentic. Yes, she's glamorous, but there's no faking this kind of talent. She was an event. A STAR.

Great live rendition of "My Man" - she doesn't really get going until half way through, though.

Don't get me started on Stephanie Mills. She had a rough time of it. And to be honest, she was not a great beauty which is why she didn't get to play Dorothy in the film version of the play she made famous. Even though Bette Midler is no beauty either and she became an A-list movie star, Stephanie got no such breaks.

TV orchestras...

[quote]LSTB is a classic film for several different reasons, and so much so that it was shown several times over the years on TCM.

I agree with you that LSTB is a great movie, but being shown on TCM is definitely no indicator of "classic" status. Have you seen of the dreck they play? One-star exploitation shit from the '60s and the like.

R380, they wanted a STAR to play Dorothy. I saw Stephanie Mills in the show on Broadway, and she was terrific. Stephanie has an unusual and very distinct singing voice. Diana, for all her beauty, looked pretty ordinary and plan in the movie Wiz.

Biggest difference: Diana = Star, Stephanie = Not a star

Thanks for posting that R381. Stephanie's voice singing that song will always be the definitive version for me and that's saying a lot since some fantastic singers have performed this song (i.e. Diana, Whitney Houston and Ashanti to name a few). I love how, at the end of that clip, Sammy Davis Jr. and Liza Minelli came out to hug and congratulate her. They knew she was something special even back then when she was still a teenager. Who is the third person at the end? Is that Chita Rivera?

I wonder if they considered Irene Cara?

Flo -- she don't know -- 'cuz the boy she loves is a Romeo.

Stefanie Mills looks older in that clip than Diana Ross did in The Wiz. And Like Home-ly. That's the answer right? It's simple. Like Ethel Merman not getting Gypsy. Mills does sing it beautifully and builds the song to a different kind of climax. Like a yearning girl. But her voice is a bit thick and mucousy. She doesn't have the resonance that Diana Ross, Whitney or Cheneweth had. Diana sings it more like a woman going through a tornado - the arrangement is much different and it suits her. It's not worth discussing too long. Some people think it's a crappy song. I think it's rather great. A grown woman can sing it. Those of us under 40 LOVE The Wiz. I know this movie. I can see NOW how badly done the movie was directed and art directed - but it's still Michael and Diana and Lena Horne, Nipsy and Mabel King. Those great songs. Ease on Down. Like Home. It's beloved. The Wiz didn't destroy Ross movie career. She should have found another way out of her failure. She's a very good actress. But she increasingly only wanted to be glamorous. They could have just hired Melba Moore for The Wiz - but they didn't, did they? They hired the right person. A star. They just styled everything around her wrong.

[quote]I love how, at the end of that clip, Sammy Davis Jr. and Liza Minelli came out to hug and congratulate her. They knew she was something special even back then when she was still a teenager. Who is the third person at the end? Is that Chita Rivera?

Yes, it's Chita. Liza and Chita were on to promote Chicago.

Liza likes Chita, but not Rita.

[quote]I've always wondered if Diana and Streisand know each other. I don't mean best buds or hanging out together, I mean are they friendly acquaintances?

They know OF each other, obviously. Ross always pissed Streisand off. She was always singing Barbra's songs. She even released the new song for the film Funny Girl BEFORE Barbra, which really ticked her off.

Ross had a weird fascination with Streisand. She wanted to BE Streisand. And doing a Funny Girl album was like stalking.

Needless to say, they are not friends. They were at a party together but did not speak.

R389

RITA: "I am a versatile actress."

CHITA: "As long as you stay on a mattress!"

RITA: "I can play any role I choose."

CHITA: "Gypsies, Italians, and black Jews!"

Streisand is a CUNT. A lifelong overpraised CUNT. She hasn't an ounce of Diana Ross charisma or beauty. Or style. Or timing. Or rythm. Or glamor. Or soulfulness.

Does Liza still like Lisa?

So pretty here!

If Beyonce is a star, Diana is a galaxy:

I think the Lange Loon has switched her devotion to Diane.

Diana took those songs deep into her heart and soul R394. Yes she was very pretty there. Thanks. I'm keeping it. She sings very pretty too. Compare this to Streisand or Gaga portraying some historically famous singer? They milk it until award season is over and throw fakery around and come up with imaginary connections to the character. Neither could refrain from being their same old egotistical selves for longer than 10 minutes. Diana Ross took in Billie Holiday. She understands that music and woman. She performs this music beautifully with full commitment. For decades. She happened to look beautiful doing it, ha.

In Patti LaBelle's autobiography, she recounts a time she ran into Stephanie Mills and couldn't stop obsessing over her appearance. There was something different about her. Patti realized later Stephanie had a nose job. Then Patti got one because of La Mills.

I always wondered if Patti contacted Stephanie and asked her if it was okay to mention this in her book. I thought it was funny.

Did she pay for it through bearding?

I don't love Patti's undisciplined singing style much, but she's a great soprano and a fun bitch. She never hid her nosejob - she had a very good one too and her facelift and her love of Luther and problems with Diana Ross. A half truth is more fascinating than a lie. It's very rare that a singer with a great voice will chance the radical nose work that Patti had. Gaga has never sounded the same after her second surgery and lots of others won't touch it. Streisand most famously. And correctly. If god gives you a great big resonant clear voice with full low tones and soaring high notes like Patti Labelle - you take a hell of a risk having a major septorhinoplasty. She was very lucky. And she's cute about it too. Her son is cute too. Her gay husband was cute too. Diana married for love.

[quote] [R368] The problem with The Wiz -- well, ONE of them -- was that Ross was not the Ross people paid money to see. There was none of the glamour.

Sidney Lumet was The Wiz's main problem.

[quote] she had a very good one too and her facelift

“I would tell my younger self not to have problems with the way I looked… not to worry about that nose,” she offered. “I had a bigger nose, so I had a nose job – that’s the only surgery I’ve ever had on my face or my body.”

[quote] Like a yearning girl. But her voice is a bit thick and mucousy. She doesn't have the resonance that Diana Ross, Whitney or Cheneweth had. Diana sings it more like a woman going through a tornado - the arrangement is much different and it suits her.

I love Diana and I love Kristin Chenoweth. However, Diana's rendition of "Home" is trash. They had to rearrange it because she couldn't sing it. And she still sounded as if she's struggling. Stephanie Mills can sing circles around Ross and Chenoweth. Mills has had a great career. She's not a pop superstar, but she is a beloved star. Nothing sells like pop music. However, that doesn't mean that there no stars outside of pop music.

I've always thought that one reason the Supremes became huge stars in the 1960s was Diana's distributive voice sounded especially great on the transistor radios EVERYONE had then.

Stephanie Mills dismantled the song to the point of it being meaningless @ R402. She has an impressive voice but that reimagining of Home is terrible. Her voice sure is thick. Mucus.

By the way, Cheneweth, several renditions by Diana Ross and a better version by Mills have already been posted on this thread R401.

Ross may have struggled with it in the film but she learned how to sing it with great feeling and dynamics later. Chenoweth can do things with her vocal production that Stephanie Mills dare not attempt and everyone has a different idea of who sings what best to their liking. Does Mills have a better voice than Diana Ross. Well yes, in many ways. But not more pleasing. I am not old enough to know who Stephanie Mills was, but she seems a bit like another Jennifer Holliday. A grunter known for one big song from one big show. A long time ago. And some people go on about her ass not being cast in the film 50 years later. Thick mucusy voice she has. It's rich and powerful and rangy. But not very distinctive. That guttural sound is not attractive to most people.

Chenoweth is more than classically trained. She's a proper singer. We can contrast the three of them, but it's best not to compare. Whitney has the greatest voice of them all, but I don't think she sang "Home" as well as Diana Ross. The song requires some melodic longing and vulnerability. Not so many R&B riffs and trills.

[quote] Stephanie Mills dismantled the song to the point of it being meaningless @ [R402]. She has an impressive voice but that reimagining of Home is terrible. Her voice sure is thick. Mucus. By the way, Cheneweth, several renditions by Diana Ross and a better version by Mills have already been posted on this thread [R401]. Ross may have struggled with it in the film but she learned how to sing it with great feeling and dynamics later. Chenoweth can do things with her vocal production that Stephanie Mills dare not attempt and everyone has a different idea of who sings what best to their liking. Does Mills have a better voice than Diana Ross. Well yes, in many ways. But not more pleasing. I am not old enough to know who Stephanie Mills was, but she seems a bit like another Jennifer Holliday. A grunter known for one big song from one big show. A long time ago. And some people go on about her ass not being cast in the film 50 years later. Thick mucusy voice she has. It's rich and powerful and rangy. But not very distinctive. That guttural sound is not attractive to most people. Chenoweth is more than classically trained. She's a proper singer. We can contrast the three of them, but it's best not to compare. Whitney has the greatest voice of them all, but I don't think she sang "Home" as well as Diana Ross. The song requires some melodic longing and vulnerability. Not so many R&B riffs and trills.

Mills was the original Broadway lead. Her version is the original. The rest are covers. Mills didn't "dismantle" the song. She didn't have to because she can actually sing it. The song was dismantled and rearranged for Ross. The Wiz is a black re-imagining of The Wizard of Oz. Therefore, the "guttural sound" of gospel and r&b are essential parts of the musical. And what you really mean is that the so-called "guttural sound" is not attractive to most whites. However, the world is not white, nor is it mostly white. And white approval simply means whites like or prefer something. It does not mean that something is of greater merit or better quality. Its just a matter of preference. Most whites prefer Donald Trump and we know how that is working out. Because its white, that doesn't make it right. You are attempting to write r&b artists off as inferior. Simply because you personally don't care for that style of singing. And if you don't know who Stephanie Mills is. Why are you attempting to give a lecture about any of this. You like what you like and that is fine. However, what you like is not necessarily better or more appropriate. Most people don't care for opera or show tunes and Kristin Chenoweth operatic voice is not selling many records. That doesn't mean that opera and musicals are inferior or less valuable.

I always found Mills' voice to be irritating. It's much too intense. That constantly quivering vibrato is as painful to the ear as the constant screaming a la Patti LaBelle. Of course, this IS only my opinion....

Florence didn't provide Berry with enough stimulation?

R390, you have obviously been reading Call Her Miss Ross by Randy Taraborrelli. Diana never had a fascination with Streisand, Berry Gordy had a fascination with Streisand's CAREER and wanted Diana to have one like that too. Diana didn't release the Supreme's Funny Girl LP before the movie came out, MOTOWN did. Lots of acts and vocalists did songs from the show. Motown wanted to capitalize on the movie coming out; the LP bombed. Streisand may have been miffed at Jule Styne who wrote a blurb for the back of the Supremes album praising their renditions. Being as insecure as she was, her first movie coming out and all, that's more logical.

Diana (and The Supremes) performed a Funny Girl medley on Ed Sullivan. I think she did an excellent job.

Doesn’t even come close to Barbra.

I think it is very odd to see an A-list singer go on national TV and sing the songs of another A-List singer.

Unless the song has become a classic.

R411, why does that have to "come close" (whatever that means) to Barbra? They.are.not.the.same.person

You must be under 40, eh R412? In the 1950s and 1960s, vocalists covered theater material. Funny Girl, at that point, was a Broadway musical. Dozens of vocalists covered "People," for instance. Female singers like Aretha Franklin covered the song, among many males like Jack Jones. The Supremes and countless others sang it in nightclubs. Good material was good material. Songs were sheet music, anyone could perform them. Streisand had the most popular record of the song.

r414 is correct. Especially in the 60s and 70s, everyone performed famous songs on variety shows. I don't know how many times I heard "Send In The Clowns". Every variety show played the same rotation of songs and Broadway, up through the end of the 70s, was feeding a lot of material to these variety shows.

[quote]Ross always pissed Streisand off. She was always singing Barbra's songs. She even released the new song for the film Funny Girl BEFORE Barbra, which really ticked her off.

Funny how Barbra forgot that when it came to Sunset Boulevard

Let's not forget, the original theme of this thread is Florence Ballard. And Florence's big solo number in the Supremes' concerts was "People," from Funny Girl.

One of Nat King Cole's last recordings was of "People".

Mary knew how to work the cleavage in those group shots. I wonder if she's wearing a pushup bra?

R405, You should really explore Stephanie Mills' body of work if you think she is just "a grunter known for one big song from one big show." Stephanie's music is legendary. "Never Knew Love Like This Before" and "Comfort of a Man" are just two of the many R&B classics she's recorded. Her voice may not be your cup of tea, but she is far from a one hot wonder.

*one hit wonder*

Keep your eyes on Mary in the video at R410 - she's fuckin' with Ross so badly yet so very, very subtly - funny shit

People didn't know how to treat rape victims back then. Look how Lana Turner reacted to her daughter Cheryl's repeated rapes by her husband Lex Barker? She threw him out of the house and divorced him, of course, but she didn't seek any kind of mental health treatment for Cheryl, none at all. And Cheryl, poor thing, did have a rough time for a while. So I am not surprised at the lack of understanding regarding Flo Ballard's rape. Back then also, it was considered the woman's fault in a way, that somehow she must have done something to entice her attacker.

So true R423. As bad as it is now in 2020, rape survivors were treated a million times worse back then.

This is when Flo outdoes Diane in “My Favorite Things” with her beauty, sexiness, and poise.

Nobody has mentioned Mary's blonde wig.

Apparently when Burt Bacharach's new girlfriend, Miss Angie Dickinson, attended her first Dionne Warwick concert, Warwick walked on stage in a blonde wig. She was not known for wearing blonde wigs back then.

Who can forget this? A Star is a star !

Stephanie Mills has a unique, world class voice.

It’s amazing that she wasn’t even nominated for a Tony for playing Dorothy.

The same person obsessed with Florence Ballard's rape a hundred years ago and Diana Ross rising above her rightful "place" 50 years ago - happens to be the obsessed Stephanie Mills stan. Boring.

The male category had five nominees and the female category had only four. TPTB really didn't like Mills, it would seem. Lola Falana got a nomination.

Obviously, Miss Ross should have been the lead singer. Her leads + those HDH songs were the key. Gordy knew who had crossover appeal and who had "it."

However, Gordy he was a poor manager of people (his lower head was doing too much of the thinking), and Miss Ross was insecure. The pushed Mary and Flo too far in the back. Mary and Flow should have been thrown a few more bones (more leads on album tracks, etc.) It would not have effected the ascendency of Miss Ross' superstardom and would have made the group better and more interesting. By the time Cindy arrived, she and Mary were just props. Other than the soundtracks with the Temptations, was Cindy ever on a record with Diane?

^^If treated a little better and given occasional opportunities to shine, maybe Mary and Flo would have been less resentful and/or easier to deal with. In any business, if the boss is known to be fucking an employee, the rest are going to resent it.

[quote]Other than the soundtracks with the Temptations, was Cindy ever on a record with Diane?

Yes. Cindy is on the Reflections, Funny Girl, Love Child, and Let the Sunshine In albums.

Flo was the one who started the group, recruiting Mary, who, in turn, recruited Diane. So the fact that Flo and Mary were pushed aside to the point where they didn't even have to show to record tracks was a punch in the gut. So it is understandable why Flo became bitter and resentful and reacted to Berry and Diana the way she did. Mary was also wounded but she wasn't going to give up the money, clothes, fame, and adulation.

Exactly R433. Plus I watched an interview with Mary several years ago in which she said that she wasn't resentful of Diane's star power and success, she just felt that Gordy could have invested more time and energy into developing the other women in the group too. It's just like Destiny's Child. Beyonce was primed to be this big superstar so she got all of the singing parts and all of the opportunities to hone her craft, but where did that leave Kelly and Michelle? That's why I've always loved En Vogue. They had all of the class and sophistication of the Supremes, but EVERYONE got the chance to shine and each member sang lead on a song that became a hit. That's the definition of a true ensemble and that's how all groups should be - assuming each member has talent .....

[quote] Plus I watched an interview with Mary several years ago in which she said that she wasn't resentful of Diane's star power and success, she just felt that Gordy could have invested more time and energy into developing the other women in the group too.

But Gordy knew that Mary and Flo didn't have the "IT" factor. You put them behind Diana Ross and neither shine. Lots of people have great singing voices, but if they don't have the spark, they aren't going to be successful.

[quote]Yes. Cindy is on the Reflections, Funny Girl, Love Child, and Let the Sunshine In albums.

I thought Flo was on the "Reflections" tracks with Cindy just on the album cover.

OK. Because of you queens I was forced to watch Lady Sings the Blues with Italian subtitles on You Tube last night. The movie itself ws garbage. Billie Holiday's story had a lot more to it than what was shown. She was a political activist in her way. She supported Paul Robeson when he was persecuted, and that's the reason the FBI came after her. So as a bio -pic it was pure shit. The movie was a romantic melodrama written in the tradition of the old biopics of the 50's and 60's. By today's social standards very dated. Poorly written and directed. Having said that, Diana did a decent job. I was very surprised. Didn't know she had it in her.

R437, Cindy is on three tracks: "I'm Gonna Make It, "Bah-Bah-Bah," and "Then."

R436,

[quote]You put them behind Diana Ross and neither shine.

I would think that if you are put behind Diana, you aren't supposed to shine, or at least outshine Diana. You are background.

"Billie Holiday's story had a lot more to it than what was shown."

Yes, lesbianism didn't go over well in 1972. Don't you get it you fool, R438? This movie wasn't supposed to be a biopic of Billie Holiday, it was supposed to be a VEHICLE for Diana Ross' MOVIE DEBUT.

I saw LSTB when I was in middle school.

Me and my friends would go around school tapping the inside of our arms and saying, "Baby, give me some shit! Give me some shit!"

YOU! Tole Harpo ta BEAT ME!

What about US?

R427, my scapular augmentation was not blonde.

It was, as any of my fans here know, creme brûlée.

And Miss Dickinson was a complete doll. I thinks it's terrible that that nasty drunk Mickey Mantle threw up in her lap while eating her kitty.

Dear Angie. I suspect I know the secret behind why HER blonde wig always has looked disheveled.

Moi at R444.

Now stop fucking invoking me, if you please.

I am ISOLATING.

No one calls on that old white racist man from Missouri who calls itself miss warwick. Get lost. He pollutes and cheapens any discussion. That ancient white man is a disgusting racist who enjoys "talking" about the divas of yesterday. F&F Miss Warwick. Always. That thing is banned from starting threads on this site. Keep it isolated.

Miss Warwick's 'satire' is nothing but a psychotic onslaught of racist degradation directed at the most famous black female singers who ever lived. It's not Got2Breal. Just pure ugliness.

HE is disgusting and vile and for some strange reason obsessed with shit and decay. All the scat troll threads ALSO originate from the ancient white man who posts as "Miss Warwick." Please remove this sick poster from the discussion. Datalounge is well aware of the actions against him/them.

Is it the queen who does Shirley Q. Liquor?

Valentines for Miss Ross.

[quote}Ross has never been interested in exposing technique: she has used her voice to serve the songs and has made what she does seem so easy it’s sometimes taken for granted. But listen to album after album of her music and you realize that while she does not always or even often astonish, she has not once been less than the song required. To deliver a wide range of songs with intelligence and sensitivity—as convincing human statements, and coherent, usually entertaining musical statements—is not something that should be taken for granted.

[quote]Ross has the sweetness to make love songs such as “The Man I Love” dreamy. The line “I go to bed with a prayer that you’ll make love to me” reminds one that there was a time when the phrase “make love” referred to talk, to a kind of talk that inspired love in the listener, but even with its current meaning (sex), Ross makes the lyric seem delicate and dreamy. A quiet humility is brought by Ross to “You’ve Changed,” making this song of fading love poignant. That song and “Don’t Explain” convey the cruel side of romance.

[quote]In “Strange Fruit,” she is not bitter but one hears the history in this song, and like all history it can be a warning. When Ross sings “My Man” at the concert’s end, with the words, “He’s not much for looks, and no hero out of books, but I love him,” and sings lyrics about her lover’s infidelity and brutality, it seems at once a personal meditation and a sad confession, with glimmers of desire and resignation; and somehow she doesn’t sound pathetic or undignified—another demonstration of character and talent. (Ross’s contemporary song catalog—with songs such as “Touch Me in the Morning,” “I Thought It Took A Little Time but Today I Fell in Love” “I’m Coming Out, ” “Missing You,” and “Until We Meet Again”—is, in sentimental terms, superior to the masochism prevalent in some of the earlier standards. She is one of the singers who in the last forty years has produced new standards.)

[quote]Stolen Moment’s best song remains “Little Girl Blue,” for Ross’s flawless reading of the song: “…Now the young world has grown old. Gone are the tinsel and gold. Sit there and count your fingers. What can you do? Old girl you’re through. All you can count on are your fingers, unlucky little girl blue. Sit there and count the raindrops falling on you. It’s time you knew all you can count on are the raindrops that fall on little girl blue…Why won’t somebody send a tender blue boy to cheer little girl blue?”

Diana

Sing out Diane

If it weren't for the ultra-cheesy arrangements , that would have been a great sequence. But Diana was killer in "Mame" and "People". I'm assuming Bob Mackie did the incredible costumes.

[quote]I'm assuming Bob Mackie did the incredible costumes.

Yes, although back then he was billed as "Robert Mackie."

[quote]The Wiz, OTOH, was a disaster from beginning to end and not even she could save that shitshow.

This thread answered its question. Diana Ross is a shining star. Her voice sold records, he looks changed history and her charisma and talent defined the word superstar. We remember her. Always.

I would have loved to have seen Ross do Josephine Baker; Lynn Whitfield was a bit of a disappointment.

R456, Please, we saw enough of Diane's pancake titties in Mahogany!

No one else is qualified. And please don’t say Beyoncé or Rihanna.