Overrated Cities? What cities surprised you?

NYC. It's a shit hole unless you are a millionaire.

I love Sedona and I plan to retire there.

Columbus? OMG.

London —apply what R1 said without the Sedona part

R1 Sedona is for millionaires..you can be near in cottonwood tho

Hated: London Loved: Los Angeles, Montreal, Seattle (not sure about the people though).

Dataloungers have trashed Boston, but it's one of my favorite cities to visit. Good restaurants, great food. I find it easy to drive around the city. Logan is manageable. Work used to take me there every few years. I need to go once when I have some free time.

London is wonderful. I can tolerate NYC for 3-4 days at most. Hate LA. Seattle is totally overrated. Love Vancouver.

It's all totally subjective -And how many of us have really spent a lot of time in those cities, in order to have a valid opinion. Used to live in London, and I'll stand by it as a great place to be. Gawdawful expensive, though.

Those of you who loved Vancouver must not have seen the huge shantytown of homeless people that I did. I've never been around as many homeless people as I was in Vancouver.

I love San Diego despite all the crap it gets on here.

I never liked NYC and I can't fathom why anyone would ever want to live there after all this. LA is hit or miss...mostly miss, though.

Pleasant surprises were Spokane and Santa Barbara - SB felt more like a European city than any other I've visited in the US.

Hated: Dallas, San Jose, Atlanta

Loved: Minneapolis, Boston, Denver, Orlando

Loved: Kansas City

Used to love London, now prefer Newcastle.

Used to love NYC, now love Boston.

Used to love Nantucket, still do.

Hated: Las Vegas. Despite having fun vacationing there with friends, very little about the place impressed me. And I don't care if it's a dry heat, when there's triple digits of it, it's too damn hot!

Minneapolis surprised me by being much nicer than I expected. Also welcomed me with perhaps the most amazing scenic vista I've ever encountered—I drove into the area cresting a hill and seeing a long bridge over water at sunset, with a hot-air balloon festival filling the western sky. It was like driving into a postcard!

I like Las Vegas. Outside the city there are nice mountains, the Lake, Havasu a few hours away. It's a nice hub to go everywhere in the southwest.

I hated Denver.

R7 a wonderful place to be, a wonderful place to be....

You're a tourist right? No-one who has actually lived in London long enough would make such claims.

I lived in London for two years, and then spent two months at a time there every year for six more years. I shared a small flat in Islington. The people were friendly, and I never ran out of places to go and things to do -Even though I was mostly poor. It's the only big city that ever felt like home to me.

People are friendly? In London? They are a bunch of uptight phonies obsessed with social class and appearances. But then again, it just occurred to me that of course if you are that kind of person then London would seem like heaven. Birds of a feather flock together.

Just like London, Ontario

Hate LA. Looks nothing like how it’s portrayed on television.

R19 what is it really like?

R19 agreed .. It’s like a fucking 3rd world country

I loved LA but it is definitely not a tourist city. It's not a city that you can just pick something at random and enjoy it the way you can in NYC, London, Paris, etc. It's a city where you need a local or someone who has lived there for a while to show you around.

R20 A bunch of ugly strip malls and ugly ranch houses from the 1950’s and 1960’s. All the “nice” homes are in rich exclusive areas that are far and few in between.

R23, with lots of homeless people?

Sedona is gorgeous but it was being destroyed by massive turism propelled by AirBnB.

San Diego is the most beautiful american city.

Phoenix is worse than hell.

Overrated: NYC. It’s become one gigantic mall. SF. Dirty and depressing. Portland Oregon. Ditto.

Loved: Boston, Portland Maine, Santa Fe. Austin TX.

[R17], clearly you're describing your own inner circle, not mine.

Clearly, some people cut me slack, socially, because I was an American -But a large number around the neighborhood were slow to warm to me because they assumed I'd be posh and stuck up. When they saw that I wasn't, they became warm and accepting. I have lived and travelled all over the world, and it's been my experience that people are nice everywhere -IF you are nice to them. Act like a dick and people will treat you accordingly.

Are people in Boston really that unfriendly and hard to make friends with?

It’s a chilly public culture there. People lack the such AJ graces and sweetness of other places.

R27, Alice in Wonderland

Atlanta --total big nothing. But, Columbus, the same bullshit in a different place.

Whats Madison Wi like? I’ve always heard good things about it. Yes I know it’s cold so you don’t need to mention that.

Not cosmopolitan, but it was pretty nice when I visited, very friendly locals. Liquor was *astoundingly* cheap, and against all odds I managed to find a good Middle-Eastern restaurant/hookah lounge. Next door to a trailer park!

Rome. Two crappy, piss-infested subway lines. Loads of rude people at every historical site and overcrowded. The food in both tourist and non-tourist areas was disgusting and the service was terrible. A dirty and boring city with few amenities. It's only saving grace was it's spectacular monuments but the city and the residents are appalling.

Sacramento, Salt Lake City, and Minneapolis were nicer than I expected.

Austin is overrated.

Seattle used to be great but it’s overwhelmed with street people. Wet San Francisco with worse architecture.

Vancouver BC is nice but kinda boring now. If you can’t afford to go to China, it’s like a clean version.

Totally agree with you about Minneapolis.I went there with zero expectations and had a fantastic time.

In kind of a theme: Santa Fe - overrated. Tucson - surprising.

I had to be in Copenhagen for a while for work... been to most of the rest of Europe a lot, and wasn't particularly looking forward to it, but fell in love with the city. Best food ever, completely surprised by that. I think I expected grandma's lingonberry pancakes or something... but farm-to-table haute cuisine. Reykjavik surprised me a bit. I knew it was supposed to be beautiful, but also fell completely in love with San Sebastian Spain.

R35 Sacramento old town is so walkable, with great restaurants. People think it's Tulsa, but the right parts of Sacto are great

You know it would be nice when you say you hate a place to elaborate on why you hate it.

Overrated: NY, Denver Loved: LA and Tucson

St. Louis actually is great. Just keep your car doors locked and a knife in your sock.

Las Vegas is an awful place.

However the people who live and work there are very nice.

I was disappointed with Hong Kong. It was hot and humid, crowded and the air smelled like diesel.

Only good part was the food was great and cheap.

Denver is rated at all?

A lot of people I know left LA for Denver and raved about it. I found it to be just ok

Toronto, Montreal, and London amaze me every time I visit.

Paris, San Francisco, Portland, and New Orleans make me want to flee within hours of arrival.

As for surprising me? Boston surprised me in a pleasant way. People make eye contact and engage with you, sometimes brusquely, but without malevolence. Austin is too provincial for me. I get it; it's the capital of Texas. Texas! TEXAS!! (Ditto Denver.) Geneva surprised me. It is the unrivaled, most boring city in the world.

Underrated: Abidjan, Lusaka, Tunis, Algiers, Marseille, Hamburg, Zurich, Basel

Love-San Francisco, Rome, and Vienna.

Hate-LA...and I fucking live here. It's the dirtiest city I've ever seen and I lived in SF for 10 years.

Not worth it.. DC.. Boring as fuck with equally boring people.

Def worth it.. Agreed on San Sebastian

R44, I dunno, I think Brussels might be the most boring city in Europe.

Geneva has some very unboring scenes that a tourist would never have access to. It can be quite gritty and gross and also extremely mondaine, corrupt and decadent. The main cities of Switzerland are filthy rich with insane infrastructures for their tiny size.

I can't stand the people from the German side R49

Portland, OR, was cool but serious vagrant problem.

Los Angeles...

Young urban Swiss Germans are cool. Other cohorts, yes there are issues with the Swiss mentality.

My overrated city is San Francisco - I've been there many, many times over the past 40 years. It is nothing like it used to be. It has lost its charm, and has been ruined by the extreme wealth and extreme homeless problem. City that surprised me the most? Melbourne. I was surprised at how much I liked it.

Cabot Cove - very dangerous with the highest murder rate of any city I’ve ever visited!

R55 Comedian, you had me. I had to go look it up, I thought maybe Maine...

There are some parts of L.A. that look like what you see in movies and on TV. But most of it is run down, dirty, and extra sketchy looking.

I love Asheville

I was born and raised in Portland, OR and do honestly think it is overrated. Sure, it's beautiful, but in the last 10–15 years it has become nothing more than a smaller, non-coastal version of San Francisco, with outrageous housing costs and a vagrancy problem that has spiraled out of control. The local government does not care, and is more concerned with promoting "diversity" initiatives for young professionals than addressing the innumerable homeless addicts who are either OD-ing from hotshots or shitting on the streets.

What is baffling to me is that, sometime in the early 2000s, the city managed to garner a reputation as this picturesque liberal utopia (which it wasn't, by the way—though politically progressive, it was always a working-class city, mainly populated by burnouts and unambitious artists). It was further fetishized by that ridiculous TV show, which also inspired people to flock here en masse. Within a decade, the city basically transformed into another mini-playground for the wealthy, while housing costs skyrocketed and the homeless population grew exponentially.

R59 honey that process is replicated all over the world in trendy cities.

I am aware, R60

R59, people also forget that Oregon was supposed to be some kind of sanctuary for whites only. Didn't they ban black people from moving into the state for a long time?

Yep

Overrated: Stockholm.

Portland is cool but had a hardcore white trash element surprising for an urban area.

R62 in the 1800s there was, but I believe it was invalidated after the Civil War. Portland did redline real estate though throughout the 20th century, which kept African Americans sequestered in certain parts of town. This is why NE Portland had a significant black population for decades, but it s now mainly inhabited by white aspiring hipsters from Texas and Nebraska.

R66, let that be a lesson to people who think anti-black racism is only a "southern" thing.

R62 Portland is still the whitest major city in the US. For someone who grew up in LA and now lives in Bay Area it's a little unnerving being there. Like the Bible banger Rapture... all the people of color were caught up in the sky... los desaparecidos...

Someone upthread said they loved Toronto. I have to admit that's the first time I've heard someone from outside of Toronto say that.

R68 as the city has been gentrified over the last 10–20 years, a great deal of the black population have moved either north across the river to Vancouver, WA, or east toward Gresham. I've noticed that the NE neighborhoods have transformed rapidly in the last decade, and are now mainly upscale hipster havens. Even St. Johns, which is far north, has been totally gentrified. The construction that has happened in that part of town is crazy—it looks like the Pearl District now.

I genuinely loved Montreal. I expected it would be great but it surpassed my expectations. Amazing poutine (yes, I thought it was awesome), deli food, Haitian food and bars. Also, clean public transit that is so much less creepy than Chicago's El, even at night. The men are hot as fuck and very direct (but charming about it). And it's pretty affordable. And Quebec City was great too.

I have lived in NYC for 30 years. Over it because I’m not wealthy and will move when I retire. I love the weather of LA but find the people horrifying. I have fantasy of slowing down to a life in. Santa Fe or Palm Springs.

Life doesn't get much slower than Palm Springs...

R72 Few cities have as many different kinds of people as LA. I'm curious as to who is horrifying to you in what way.

Absolutely charming Iittle cities:

Santa Barbara, California Savannah, Georgia

Absolutely loved Bangkok, Thailand, one of the world's great cities. No wonder it's the most visited.

Agree that San Francisco is such a letdown, I expected it to be way cooler, more interesting and freakier. California in general has had a personality transplant.

By contrast in the US I loved Memphis and (especially) New Orleans, not knowing what to expect I found them both fascinating places. NYC I like too but it doesn't come up to London's level as a global city. Other shout-outs go to Rio de Janeiro, Berlin, and there's a lot to be said about Beijing and Shanghai, with the (major) exception of the terrible air quality.

Paris was very interesting and cultured but I found it almost impossible to make friends, mind you that was in the pre-Web 2.0 days.

Overrated or just ugh: Atlanta, Dallas, Las Vegas, Phoenix/Scottsdale.

Lives up to expectations: New York' Los Angeles, Minneapolis, Vancouver, London, Copenhagen, Paris

Couerd’alene Idaho...so beautiful and skiing in winter, lakes with great beaches in summertime....however it’s cold AF and too hot for me in summer but I don’t like too hot.

I was amazed by Oslo. Never thought I'd find it interesting, but it was truly beautiful, friendly, and full of energy.

Overrated - New Orleans. The French Quarter is filthy, Garden District is pleasant though.

R74 you’re joking right with that statement about how LA is one of fhe more diverse cities. It is home to one of the most narcissistic and superficial groups of folks I’ve ever encountered.

R72, how dare you say that about our home town.

R82 More Mexicans than any city other than Mexico City, more Armenians than any place outside of Armenia, more Filipinos than any city outside of Manila, more Koreans than any city outside of Seoul, more Salvadorans than any city outside of San Salvador, more Russians... etc etc. Temple City looks like Beijing. More Tongans, Samoans, Ethiopians.... right wind rednecks in Glendora, hasidic jews in La Brea, drugged bourgeoisie in Venice, drunk English in Santa Monica, rich black people in Calabasas... etc.

Atlanta is horrible. I've lived in a suburb for nearly 30 years. It has a nice aquarium and museum, but it really lacks character otherwise. Totally boring.

I wonder if Harry will get tired of LA. I think he likes Africa better.

NY used to be my favorite city in the world, but I think it's totally overrated now. The Cuomo dynasty help make it so that the middle-class can't afford to live there anymore and now that all the checker cabs are gone...well, it's OVAH!

My father and aunt both used to be able to rent apartments in Manhattan back in the 1960s. My dad was a gig singer and my aunt was a secretary for a publisher. She had a roommate...but do you think a secretary and her roommate could afford an apartment in Manhattan nowadays? It has become a museum to go and look at how the ultra-wealthy live. It's dead.

R74/R84, in defense of Los Angeles, it is the second largest city in the United States with a population of over 4 million people. Of course it’s got diversity. That’s what makes it a great, world class city. What shithole do you live in where there’s no narcissism or superficiality? I’d take that over the people I’ve encountered in gun-toting JesusLand.

Sounds like you’re a Fox News California hater. Or, more likely, you used to live here and couldn’t get your big break... and now your jealous of those who have and love living here.

San Diego is the American San Sebastian!

Galway, Delft, Murren - loved for combination of beauty and food/drink and small size.

NY- over, Dallas and Atlanta - blah materialist sprawl, Denver - grungy, ungay, ugly.

Still love SF - but it’s been ruined by money and tech takeover. LA is one of the most diverse places in US - but the Hollywood focus on superficiality and wealth makes it a mentally unhealthy place to live.

R82 just because LA is shot through with entertainment industry superficiality doesn't mean it is not a diverse city. Look at the numbers. The demographics are wildly diverse.

DC is totally overrated--yes, all of the monuments, etc. are fine and dandy, but bad restaurants (I'm thinking to pacify all of the congressional delegations from flyover states "eew, its too spicy! I don't like pepper!") and traffic problems from hell (think spending an hour to drive 5 blocks to get on Rt. 50 and GTFO of DC).

Pleasantly surprising--just about any college town (Columbia, MO and Lawrence, KS as two examples) because they still have a downtown not filled with cookie cutter garbage like Walmarts and Applebees. Small town feel with character--I know these aren't considered cities but they generally have most of what you'd find in a small city.

Agree R92. Like Charlottesville - though that’s being built up a little too much, like a smaller Raleigh.

R90 This seems to me to be very SF

san diego.

kinda small

frisco remains my fave city:::::so purdy, thoo I loooove nyc and all its madness....and hell yea VANCOUVER

R94 other than money mentions, all the rest sounds about right for SF in the mid 80s as well, so maybe it hasn't changed all that much.

Hilarious, r94.

R94 that is sadly accurate. And funny.

Love - Montreal, Philadelphia, NYC, Minneapolis and Victoria. Of those, Minneapolis surprised me the most.

r69 I've heard many people not from Toronto say that.

I don't think you can comment on any city unless you've been there in the past 10 years and have been there for more than 4 days. That's just my opinion - but cities and their vibe can change for the good or the bad.

I do not understand how anyone could view Bangkok as 'beautiful' - the country is and the people are awesome. But Bangkok is just a big, polluted city with a brown river.

Most overrated: New. York. City.

The bigots from the coastal western states have been flocking to Idaho for many years. It's where most of the racist L.A. cops move when they retire.

I don't get Palm Springs - if living there is the retirement goal for eldergays, I'll just go ahead and die of the corona.

R17 - London hasn't been like that in forty years. It's a huge multicultural melting pot just the way New York is. You can barely tell the difference any longer - Englishness, especially of the kind you're clearly uttering with no experience of the place and too many re-watches of Downton Abbey. It's also overcrowded, dirty, crime-ridden in a way it wasn't a half century ago, outrageously expensive, and has lost every vestige of being an English city.

In point of fact, it was a much warmer, friendlier, and livable place when it WAS a bona fide English city.

Love: Minneapolis, Chapel Hill, Kansas City, Denver, Vancouver

Hate: Dallas, Atlanta

College towns rarely live up---Columbia Mo is pretty charmless. Ann Arbor is the one exception that comes to mind.

Bangkok--I came to like it and the advent of good mass transit has made it more livable.

Portland--a big disappointment. Self-conscious hipness overwhelming a little bit of character. I live Seattle much more despite sharing some of the same negatives. Denver is another disappointment.

Atlanta is just a joke. the same can be said for most sunbelt cities----ugly, boosterish sprawlburgs that are environmentally unsustainable. Fort Worth has more going for it than Dallas.

Hated Dallas - couldn't get out of there quickly enough although I will admit there is lots of shopping there.

Hated L.A.

Phoenix is the kind of place you go to die when you don't want anyone following you and claiming your body.

Flagstaff, on the other hand, was cooler, breezier, and greener.

Loved Santa Fe. Hated Albuquerque, one of the ugliest cities you can imagine set in the midst of some of the most impressive natural scenery anywhere.

R107 - Denver used to be quite nice, except for the pollution. But the last couple of decades haven't been kind to it, the quality of life has eroded considerably, and for pretty college towns, Boulder is much more what in the mould.

My expectation of Vegas was gutter-level, and the reality didn’t even rise to that level. I expected it to be tacky but I didn’t expect everything to be movie set facade-level cheap and rickety.

R88, defensive and overreacting much? I spent 25 years living in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Still work in Manhattan but moved across the river to Jersey City, which actually is recognized as one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the nation. I’m a left wing social worker. But I find the superficiality of Los Angeles unappealing, like your online personality.

The thing about SF and LA is that there are still pockets within them that are somewhat livable. But those are shrinking. With LA the sprawl and superficiality define the city. In SF there’s feeling lucky you’re able to afford living here. Some don’t want to leave because of the great food, surrounding weather, and outdoor activities that the Bay Area has to offer. Like seeks like, and there’s a disproportionately large population of highly educated people including scientists, tech and biotech workers. People are open minded, the SF Bay Area Republicans are a different breed than uneducated bigot or religious Republicans in LA.

I had low expectations for Atlanta and was pleasantly surprised. It was inexpensive, had fun gay bars, good restaurants, shopping, and the houses I saw had beautiful, private backyards with huge trees and rolling hills.. Seemed like a nice place to live.

I had high expectations for Las Vegas and couldn’t leave fast enough.

R112 - but SF Bay Area Republicans still vote for regressive, offensive policies merely by voting Republican. Their pleasant demeanor makes no difference to me. They vote for bigoted and dangerous policies. Period.

Toronto - very large homeless population & some of them were very aggressive; it made you appreciate the police presence in other large cities.

In defense of Vegas, if you only hang out at a casino you will be disappointed. There are so many recreational activities around Vegas that are great--mountain biking at Blue Diamond, hiking/bike riding at Red Rock, skiing in winter up at Mt. Charleston, kayaking on Lake Meade or Colorado River, a 35 mile bike trail by Lake Meade/Hoover Dam.

But you have to put in an effort to find/do these things. Going straight to some casino from the airport you will completely miss these things. I guess my point is that a trip to Vegas is what you make of it.

R112 Ummm... Carly Fiorina and all the Tech Zillionaires who want to have an international libertarian structure, socially progressive, deregulated, supporting innovation and free flow of capital.... that's the kind of Republican you find in SF, Palo Alto, Silicon Valley... (I've made them sound better than they are... their ideas do perpetuate oppressive economic policies, maintaining an elite at the expense of the servant classes

R86 You freaked me out - my name is Harry and I thought you were talking about me (R84) - how did he know? But you were talking about that other Harry.

London is a multicultural hell hole where you won't find English being spoken on the street. The EU opened the floodgates to migrants from the third world and now London is a third world city.

I love Toronto also.

R118 the downside to globalization is that the major cities all start to seem the same.

I was in Berlin a few years ago, and half the hip restaurants seemed like they had been transplanted from Portland.

Atlanta has great food, friendly folks

San Francisco underwhelmed me in the extreme. I was prepared to be charmed -- I expected a West Coast Boston. Instead, I found it dirty, with a serious vagrant problem, and the surrounding towns were brown, dusty, and sad. Carmel was nice though. Berkeley was equally disappointing. I was nearly mugged in broad daylight near UC-Berkeley.

Also, Charlottesville, VA. Expected a charming college town in the tradition of Burlington, VT or Northampton/Amherst, MA. It was deadsville.

Was not expecting to like -- but was charmed by -- Naples, Florida.

Toronto, Canada was a gray, steely, soulless sprawl. A friend used to live there and raved. I could see zero redeeming value. Niagara Falls was just as bad, plus tacky.

NYC is not overrated. For those saying it is, that’s because you didn’t leave midtown.

R122 Your appreciation of Naples voids any consideration of your review CA cities. A cada quien su gusto...

If we’re talking the gulf coast of Florida, I would opt for Sarasota over Naples.

"nearly mugged": a black person seemed to be following me!

Ridiculous.

Denver is a gigantic strip of BLAH BLAH BLAH. The surrounding areas are fine if you're outdoorsy.

Can we just shut down this thread and admit nothing compares to New England?

New England cities tend to be dull, though. Hartford, New Haven, Springfield, Providence, Burlington, Manchester, Waterbury: why?

Pretty much any city in the world which was once charming, vibrant and interesting has now been destroyed by overcrowding, traffic, noise, pollution and income inequality. They are now just prisons of wealth/poverty.

Toronto is the only city that seems to strictly get raves from people who live there. I've never heard anyone from outside the city claim they love it. And Torontoans are so defensive about it!

Wuhan has a certain something about it.

Boulder, Colorado got a lot better after Mrs. Patsy Ramsey left!

New England is bland and socially cold to impolite. Horrible food

Another vote for Santa Barbara

Small town New England architecturally is ideal. The people not so much. And as a place to live, the brutal winters, car dependence and absence of modern big box stores (ugly but a luxury in modern American life - ex, Home Depot) can be an issue.

I don't know about overrated but I stopped having fun in New York about 5 years ago (I'm 57 now, so that's probably part of it). I still enjoy the theater and restaurants (well. I will again I hope), but the whole "greatest city in the world" thing has become meaningless to me. Also leaving me "Meh, whatever" is Denver, Cincinnati, Providence, Atlanta, and Dallas.

I love London as a frequent visitor and I do find the people to be charming. I'm under no delusion thinking that I'm rubbing elbows with earls and millionaires, so I don't see a lot of the class awareness that I know exists. Some places that have surprised me: Nashville (really fun, but people travel in crowds which can be a pain), Buffalo (seriously, it has amazing food and beautiful housing stock, though the people are overweight and every woman is a Frau), San Diego was delightful, and Portland, OR was enjoyable but it, like San Francisco, has way too many drug addicts.

^^under no illusion^^

Vegas was really depressing. Women in skimpy costumes under the hot sun trying to attract people into some cheesy casino or show.

I took a trip out to a neighborhood and it was nice but unremarkable.

The shows are spectacular but dull. If you are not a drunk and not a gambler there is literally nothing to do.

Most cities manage to have some interesting shopping of some sort....but not Vegas. Other than a very high end rare book store at the Belagio there is nothing you cannot find in any other city.

New York, LA and San Francisco were always the “it” places I thought I wanted to live in during my young life. NYC and SF are nice to visit now, but I would not consider living in either without a multimillion-dollar windfall, and that’s not going to happen. Both seem like miserable rat races, even though I think parts of San Francisco are beautiful and New York still has a feeling I like. More than a short visit is too much time in either.

LA is weird. I grew up in Northern Virginia outside of DC, and I have lived in DC for 10 years. LA reminds me of the DC suburbs with a radically different landscape. It’s spread out with ceaseless traffic, strip malls, and enough people are transient and so ambitious as to be career-obsessed opportunists. I don’t like any of that. And environmental changes have made it seem apocalyptic there at times. I think I would prefer to live somewhere in LA than SF or NYC, though, just because of familiarity and because it seems like there’s still a middle class of people who don’t live exclusively to work, poor and rich alike.

R140 Yeah yeah, Vegas is so horrible.

Atlanta has lots of mediocre restaurants and a common complaint among newcomers is how difficult it is to establish deep friendships. The gays are laughably a bunch of 6s and 7s who think they're 10s, looking for a 12. Housing prices have shot up in the past two years, finally erasing the deep declines of the last decade and giving some homeowners some property appreciation.

ATL has been living off a brief period in the 70s when it somehow became cool. Austin has been trying to do this with it's brief heyday in the 80s. Enough people have been to both places to know better.

Atlanta has awesome southern food. Hattie B’s is my favorite

I didn’t hate LA but it’s not my favorite town by a long shot.

I thought I’d like Seattle a lot more than I did. On the other hand I was surprised I liked Portland OR as much as I did.

Didn’t have any expectations of Charlotte, but got stuck there once and hated it.

Love: Banff and surrounding areas, NYC, London, Hue, Dalat, Etretat, Lisbon, Kyoto, Taiwan (mostly for the food), Hong Kong (same) Hate: LA, San Diego, most Hawaiian islands, Beijing, Vancouver

I live in SF and mostly love it. But many posters here are right - the wealth disparity has ruined some of its charms and exacerbated its problems. There are still many pockets of beauty throughout the city though.

I’d live in San Francisco if I could live in the Malloch Building

[QUOTE] there’s a disproportionately large population of highly educated people including scientists, tech and biotech workers.

Techies are not highly educated. Their ignorance of everything that's outside of their specific expertise is astonishing.

That's why any place they flock to quickly becomes a cultural wasteland

Good point R148. The STEM mentality is almost exactly counter to the whole creative artistic vibe which made SF special. Tech nerds were somewhat isolated in Silicon Valley. They started to invade SF proper in 2000 and have now overrun it with their Yelp rating/ IG based view of the world.

R148 and R149... Very good point. I never considered that aspect of the SF invasion by the techs.

Santa Barbara is lovely to visit, but for people who actually live there the expression is: "newlyweds and nearly deads". And the cost of living is pretty steep.

Most newlyweds could never afford Santa Barbara

R152 Their families' money,

Also, Santa Barbara has a longstanding Latino community.... service industry, but Milpas etc... they live there too.

Love: LA , San Francisco, Savannah, Boston, Vancouver, Seattle, Austin

Hate: Pittsburgh, Dallas, Atlanta. There is one unhinged DLer who defends Atlanta's "culture" to the hilt on other city threads. I'm surprised they have read everyone to filth yet.

R152 I think the newlywed portion has more to do with it being overrun with honeymooning couples who can't afford to go anywhere too exotic-expensive.

Toronto is really disappointing. Soul-less urban renewal and the dullest gayborhood I've ever visited.

R148 One can be highly educated and lack other things such as being socially informed. But that doesn't negate the fact that to be in these fields one has to be intelligent. Those who work in STEM fields tend to believe in science and are successful due to meritocracy. They're good at problem-solving. This belief lends them more aligned with progress and problem-solving instead of backwards religions or extreme ends of political ideologies. As comparison to people who work in finance in the east coast, I haven't seen or heard any NYC billionaire businessman donating funds or heading efforts to help with the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic. It's mostly west coast tech and related industry leaders who are doing it. That's the difference in mentality. At this moment in time I'd rather be here than be in areas where people aren't taking guidelines seriously because they're either Trumptards, non-Trumptards who are ignorant in health/ science and like to flaunt rules of law.

There are non-tech companies based here including Youtube, Uber and Lyft, Yelp, Netflix, Twitter, Tesla, Genentech, PayPal, Yahoo, Facebook, eBay, Pixar, Kaiser Permanente, and many more. But the tech industry got its start in this area and that made it attractive to skilled workers to come and settle here. Are there drawbacks to living here with a huge tech presence? Yes, some of the tech bros are smug assholes. High salaries here also means high cost of living especially housing and rent. But that's really the fault of greedy landlords and NIMBY types who refuse to build more housing in much needed areas.

R157 As someone who had lived in the Bay Area for a very long time, and saw the dot.com bubble rise and break, and subsequent t5ech bubbles... of course, someone capable of STEM achievement is, by definition, whether they've had a liberal arts education or not. Some in the tech sector are wildly innovative and driven,,, although if you're just writing code all day...

But there are multiple kinds of intelligence, right? 8, 8, 13, 17 depending on the framework identifying it. STEM folk definitely, in my experience, have clear deficiencies in some of them. Lack of intellectual curiosity about things off their radar, lack of linguistic elegance (too ready to adapt and use jargon), lack of empathy/emotional intelligence. At least that's my view. I definitely think SF culture has not been helped by the various tech booms.

Surprised: Kansas City, Indianapolis, Houston- thought I wouldn't want to live in any of them for different reasons. Raleigh.

Love: Atlanta , Los Angeles, St. Louis (yeah, I know, but I got to know it well and enjoyed it); Minneapolis,

Hate: Portland, Charlotte, San Jose, Milwaukee

Detroit is an old, obvious joke in threads like this, but I love the whole state of Michigan.

I'm not surprised that after they became rich and famous, Jeff Daniels, Eminem, Aretha Franklin, Anita Baker, Bob Seger, Patti Smith, Timothy Busfield, Dave Coulier, Elaine Stritch, Kid Rock (barf) Kate Upton and Jack White chose to live there.

R130 - Manchester, NH or Manchester, VT? The former is dull, the latter is beautiful. Woodstock, Vermont was once voted the prettiest small town in America and after visiting it, it's clear why.

But these places are not, it is true, exciting - they are likely nicer places to live than to visit.

Vermont is one of the most beautiful places I have ever traveled through, at varied seasons. The autumn foliage, especially farther north, exceeded expectations and in the late spring, early summer the depth of green was on a par with the most beautiful parts of the English countryside at that season.

But if you're looking for clubs, excitement . . . these are not places you're likely to enjoy unless you're really into hiking, skiing, and camping. Same with Nantucket and Cape Cod. You go there for atmosphere and natural beauty.

I mentioned on another thread that I'd visited Salem, MA close to Halloween and was gobsmacked by the city's Halloween hysteria. It's a very strange little place, only 16 miles from Boston. However, the Peabody Essex Museum is one of the finest I have ever visited. Go figure.

You have to distinguish between tourism and looking for a place to live. I couldn't live in Woodstock VT, but I absolutely could live in Boston. For one thing, I'm heavily into classical music and Boston has the BSO and Symphony Hall, and it has nothing to apologise for in the way of art museums, restaurants, and interesting neighbourhoods.

All in all, having traveled fairly widely in America and having had to teach for a few years in New Mexico, if I were told I had to live someplace in America for the rest of my life but could pick any region I liked, New England, beginning with Boston, would be my first choice. I liked the feel of New England, loved Nantucket and Cape Cod.

The humid summers and wicked winters, however, are major considerations.

Michigan countryside was surpassingly nice. I was surprised how much I like Cleveland - cool down to earth people, lake, nice housing, walkable areas, good bathhouses. Also surprised by Houston - diverse, not obnoxiously Texan, AWESOME food, walkable gayborhood, some nice neighborhoods in the central loop, Menil museum and affiliated sites are a perfect size and style of museum.

Minneapolis has an ugly downtown and the people were really cold. The gay bars were not very fun - people didn’t want to talk. Some of he liter areas - with lakes - were very nice. But not enough to offset the freezing cold. I would choose New England/Berkshires before Minneapolis.

Agrees tight the hate for Atlanta and Dallas

R147 When I first moved to San Francisco in 2005, there was a BMR(below market rate) I tried to get in that building. It was crazy cheap (295K I think?) but my partner and I made just over the limit for a BMR condo. We ended up buying a repo by the ballpark and sold it for a ridiculous amount of money in 2014 but I still hate that we didn't get the Malloch place.

As a Bostonian and a New Englander, I have to agree with R161: Boston is my first choice. It's not overrated and it constantly surprises me and I live here. I've been as far east as Moscow and as far west as Melbourne (another wonderful town and a Boston sister-city and there really is a Moonee Ponds) and I'm very happy to stay where I am.

That said, Buenos Aires impressed me (the people, the food) as did Lisbon - it's really underrated and the Gulbenkian is a fantastic museum. I loved the energy in Berlin and Chicago, too. And Savannah, Georgia as well, although John Berendt ruined it with his damn book. SCAD is doing its part to redeem the city's reputation.

NYC and San Francisco used to be wonderful but they're both over. New Orleans, sadly, never recovered. Florence and Venice were nightmarish with the Chinese tourists: there's a problem that's just solved itself. The worsening homeless situation in Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver, BC has surprised me: I remember when there was little or none.

Loved New Orleans and was expecting to find it tacky and dangerous.

Expected to love Nashville and thought it was rundown, sad, and oddly laid out. The "downtown" appeared to be one sorry stretch anchored by a large Hooters.

R159, curious what you loved about Atlanta.

Hi R163. Thanks for your comment on the Malloch Building in SF. I was surprised to read that any apartment/condo in that building was ever a BMR. I guess it’s something like rent control is elsewhere.

In about 1980, I looked at a two-bedroom Malloch condo that was for sale. I think the price was around $300K which I thought was outrageous at the time. The unit had a direct view of Coit Tower and the Golden Gate Bridge.

Savannah was disappointing compared with Charleston, which also has a more interesting location.

I was pleasantly surprised by Buenos Aires.

Tokyo, Beijing (despite it's constant smog), and Hong Kong all impressed me. manila was very depressing. LA is interesting once you get beyond the usual obvious stuff that visitors come to see, but also filled with depressed people.

Barcelona is my favorite city

I am surprised I don't read more about Philadelphia here. I currently live in New York and am thinking about moving there. Yes, NYC is totally overrated. The magic is gone. Overpriced, over-manicured, and soulless. Maybe the corona crisis will change that but I doubt it. Philly seems much more livable, there are real neighborhoods (as in 'interacting with your neighbors'), and I found lots of real creative energy there. Philly surprised me.

R171, my friend who studied in Philly said it was the dirtiest city he has ever been in. And a female friend remarked "no hot guys here". Any truth to those statements (yes, I realize the latter one is a generalization).

Philly has a worse reputation than it deserves

R171, yes, Philadelphia is fantastic... a mini NYC but way more manageable and pretty.

R172, Philly is the dirtiest city your friend’s seen? That’s just wrong. Has he been to Paris?

R174, no, I think he was strictly referring to American cities I believe. He said it was wayyyyy dirtier than Chicago. He said when he was there (this was the early 10s), it was filthy and streets would be filled with trash.

Many people say that about Philly

Hey R171, the center city living in Philadelphia is incredible. You can walk safely everywhere and it’s beyond charming. The cost of homes incredibly reasonable, btw. Look at the link below. This place is just off Rittenhouse Square!

R172, I'd rather have a little dirt on the streets than millionaires and homeless and nothing in between. When I lived in NYC in the late 90s you would still see those bohemian types in the Village who clearly had no money but managed to live there somehow. Now there are gone even in the East Village. Just watched the Mapplethorpe documentart on HBO. Something has been lost...muggings, junkies and all. A loft on Bond Street went for for $ 30.000 then. Now you can buy a few years of Equinox membership for that....or let your dog take a dump in front of the Herzog DeMeuron or Chipperfield condo buildings (both godawful). A store in that great cast-iron building on the corner of Bond/ Bowery, opposite of the old Amato Opera, sells T-shirts for $1000....ughh.

And Philly is just 90 minutes to Manhattan. I commuted that route for a year and actually loved it.

Love San Francisco, Boston and Dallas Hate St Louis , Los Angeles and Pittsburgh

Hate NYC and its metro for the most part. I detest Los Angeles, what a goddamn shit hole. Indianapolis, Columbus, and all the other boring Midwest cities suck.

Loved Las Vegas, Portland OR, San Francisco and surprisingly Pittsburgh. Also liked London. New Orleans is okay if you stay out of the dirty areas.

San Diego is the only american city that makes me want to dress and ride a scooter like Audrey Hepburn did in Roman Holliday.

R182 San Diego makes you want to dress in drag? Interesting...

R166 - first, I think it's beautiful - the hills and the trees, the winding roads - like when you drive Ponce from Midtown through Druid Hills on the way out to 285 - just one example - I think it's scenic.

I like the intown funky neighborhoods like Little Five Points, Cabbagetown to name two, and close-in burbs like Decatur - walkable, good bars, and restaurants, chill - and the housing stock is beautiful and/or "cute."

I like the weather - for most of the year anyway.

I like the men and the clubs - a lot. I've had a lot of great nights in Atlanta.

I like that you have options to live in fairly dense areas, or can have more space but still be close to the city center.

I generally like the people.

Not unique to Atlanta, but I like it's big-city amenities - again, bars, restaurants (not the greatest, but still good), live music venues, shopping, etc.

I like Piedmont Park

I'm black and gay - I like that there's a lot of black gays and a really diverse population of black people.

I know the downsides - I've dealt with the downsides, but I still love ATL. I'm not telling others to, but I've had positive experiences.

R184, were you in Atlanta when Aunt Fannys Cabin was in business? I used to take out of town clients there and loved to watch their reactions to the “Happy Slave” theme. Complete disbelief. However, the classic Southern food was incredible and the wait staff sang beautiful spirituals all evening.

I love Pittsburgh

I agree R186 - Been there three times - gorgeous, and I had a really good time. But, never got to explore the gay scene.

The people in Philadelphia have low rent attitudes. Very parochial and somewhat intolerant.

I love Philadelphia but there are not many good looking men.

I'm sure many of you flyovers only wish you could afford to live in SF or NY.

People who lived in Philly used to hate it because it was so closed socially. In the last 20 years that seems to have changed. It's not a "world capital" city to visit, but there's plenty there to see/do, and I've always eaten well.

R190 - seriously, grow out of your 8th grade mentality, Heather. No one likes a bitchy queen.

R190 Living in San Francisco is Night of the Living Dead, and living in New York after 9/11 awash in coronavirus would completely suck.

I'm surprised by the responses about Minneapolis and Kansas City. Were the expectations so low that it was better than what you thought?

Loved Philly - though I get the hate. Some neighborhoods and the people aren’t great. But much prefer to Boston or DC. Less pretentious, easier, cheaper, walkable, great architecture.

Boston is small, uptight, no significant gay scene. Maybe if you’re older - but then the brutal winters, and expense, still suck.

Love -- Havana, Cuba; Savannah, GA,; Charleston, SC; Siemp Riep, Cambodia; Hoi An and Saigon, Vietnam.

Overrated -- Bangkok; Las Vegas

No, R194. I just never really had any desire to go to KC and never really thought about it one way or the other. But, I ended up going and was impressed.

R191, you are spot on about the change in Philadelphia. I grew up there and absolutely hated it; old fashioned and provincial; grim, dark and dirty; nasty and biased people. Got out as soon as I could. BUT... in the last couple of years I’ve been back several times on business and have fallen in love with the city... particularly the downtown. It’s like a different world there now. People are friendly and open. It’s actually a very happy place.

I kind of feel like it’s the “secret” best big city to live in. The right mix of history, beauty, low real estate prices, moderate winters, easy to get around in, safe, great airport, fantastic food, an hour and a half to New York City, etc. etc.

I NEVER thought I would feel this way, once I left.

St. Louis has the best pre-history, the largest settlement of pre-Colombian times. It has as many historic houses as Philadelphia, but they are not museums. It has some of the most daring architecture in the country. It gave us the Davis Cup, TS Eliot, and grandest world's fair America ever threw, as well as the first Olympics. But the dark side is too dark and too contemporrary: racism, Limbaugh, Schlafly, the Excorcist, the serial killers, the "what high school did you go to" parochialism. The same fools who view government as inherently evil were okay with it as long as the victims of official extortion were black as in Ferguson. St. Louis is unlovable: fascinating, but unlovable.

[quote]the first Olympics

Oh, really?

I meant American Olympics of course, but remember Athens in 1896 only had 241 athletes.

R190, no most Americans don’t want to live the NYC lifestyle. It’s okay to visit, but we wouldn’t want to live in a place where most people don’t have a yard, a garage, a car, in-home washer dryers, and after where going to the grocer or Home Depot is exhausting.

Siem Reap has nice people and history, but the weather and bugs are dreadful. Unliveable for me

And no sweet tea in NYC.

Intereingly, The New York TIMES has an article up today about the lure of the big big cities fading, and how the coronavirus has given yet another reason for middle-income folk to rethink all that glamour, sophistication, culture, etc., because it comes at a price almost no one but the rich can afford.

Those people now having doubts about the NY, L.A., Chicago, San Francisco thing are looking at smaller cities like some of have been mentioned here, notably Pittsburgh and Philly, or at returning to new or older suburbs.

The same thing is happening in London as in New York: the place has lost its soul, and is just another massively overcrowded, astronomically expensive, far more dangerous and exhausting place to live. The beneficiaries are places like Brighton, not yet ruined, fairly picturesque, not too far from the capital, and (for the moment) much cheaper. Even places like Birmingham and Manchester, which do have a fair amount of cultural enticements, are now more like mini-Londons than they are places to escape high prices, crime, and overcrowding.

People who can afford head to the exurbs like Richmond, which is technically part of southwest London, but seems like a suburb and is beautiful - the view of the Thames from Richmond is protected by law. It less than ten miles from Charing Cross.

If you can afford places like Richmond or what the equivalent would be in NY (Westchester? Rockland?) you can get the best of both worlds.

The suburbs in the boom-boom 1990s started losing population and immigrants flocked to the cities for the jobs. Now, the trend is reversing.

R203 - I was just in Siem Reap in January - I think it is one of those places you can only go to in the winter. I was overwhelmed at the city's charm and party scene (which was completely unexpected). But god damn is it cheap! The weather was fine for me - but obviously I was there at a more tolerable time.

R205 - I've been to Richmond and that's really just outer London as you state. Brighton bored me and it seemed like another run-down English seaside town, albeit better than most.

I have to think housing prices and rents are skating with their maximums in the major cities and are doomed for a major course correction. It's just not sustainable UNLESS we got to an even further stratified income inequality. Let's just hope the 2nd tier cities build thoughtfully instead of just more tract suburban soulless sprawl - like Denver IMO.

The big Northeast And Midwest cities were declining or plateauing before coronavirus. Census estimates Show the New York metro is losing people to other regions as millennials move to greener pastures to buy homes and start a family. Also, immigrants are going to Sunbelt cities more and more, where the cost of living is much less.

Hanoi: the most littered city I’ve ever been to. Food is good but not nearly as cheep as what people said

Cities that surprised me in a good way: Seoul, Beijing, Taipei, Hanoi, St Petersburg (Russia) New Orleans, Wellington NZ, Melbourne (Australia) Berlin, Budapest, Osaka, Lahore.

My favourite city in the whole world is Bangkok, Thailand. But that has to do with establishing roots there, speaking Thai and being there during a really positive time in my life. I haven't see enough of Europe, but the North and more of the East intrigues me.

RE:Seattle. It depends. I have been here since 2004, I joined some meetup groups and an exercise class and definitely met people and have some friends now. No different than any other place I have moved to. Nobody goes into the city if you live in Bellevue. Downtown was torn up due to an une suderground tunnel along the waterfront and parking was nonexistant so most people from the burgs stayed on their turf. This a gorgeous city and thdfd is so much to do. I dont feel safe in the downtown due to homeless population.

underground tunnel.

R184: Not exactly a ringing endorsement. there are with more green space and more attractive housing stock. And the weather sucks---wet springs, summers where even the natives don't want to be outside during the day (and at night it's mosquitos everywhere) and as for winter--grey, damp, dreary, seems chillier than the actual temp. No snow but every other year you can count on getting an ice storm that paralyzes everything and brings down tree limbs on cars, houses, etc. Interesting remnants of segregation--like the relatively small number of public pools.

R205 "the San Francisco thing" as a part of the criticism of urban environments with... I guess the critique is small apartments, no gardens, no indoor washer/dryer... people forget that the SF "urban" environment is a mid-sized city of 700k surrounded by 6mil people living in suburbs. San Mateo and Santa Clara counties to the south (Palo Alto, San Jose) are full of houses with lawns, washers and dryers, tree-lined streets, but a few miles from mountains with trails and forests. The cost of this "suburban" life, of course, is high. $1 mil plus for simple 2 bedroom houses etc. Similarly, LA as an urban environment doesn't quite fit the critique... I remember an article years ago comparing urban neighborhoods in the East Coast with South Central, and remarking on how, in this "ghetto" there were mostly bungalows with front and back yards.

So this "trend" isn't about a yard, right? I suppose it's about congestion, but the last decade recommended moving to "urban villages" where the commute was short, where you could walk to a market, etc. What's the benefit of living in Tracy CA so you can have a house and yard and you have to commute four hours a day into San Jose....

R205 - I always thought that a retreat from cities was going to happen anyway - CV has just hastened it. As they say, "things go in cycles." There was, of course, the great suburbanization phase in prior generations. The rush back to cities in the last two decades has been amazing - cities have a lot to offer, and obviously many people will always want to "live in the city." But now I can see another focus on getting out of the city due to health concerns, cost, and wanting more space. It will be interesting to see what happens to the cities themselves - how will they feel different?

I believe the movement out of large cities is more related to real estate cost and school quality for those with children than it is for yards or washers and dryers.

How is Ho Chi Mihn City?

Some will survive and thrive, R214. Some will decline. Suburbia would be more popular if 1: younger people now in the cities (mostly renting) hadn't escaped from their suburban lives, either as kids stultified by the lack of things to do or as older empty-nesters who, having raised their kids, wanted to go back to the cities because there are things to do there, and 2: because the youngs forming families these days are fewer in number with lower incomes, relatively speaking, who can't afford suburbia.

It all depends on what state you live in, but one fact of life in the Northeast, anyway, is that property taxes in suburbia can cost a fortune based on both higher house prices (and thus valuations) and the need to spread the cost of essential services across fewer residents: schools and cops and firemen cost the same, pretty much, in the city or suburbia but when you have 10,000 residents to pay for them instead of 500,000, you lose any economies of scale. If the region has good jobs, people can afford this. If it doesn't, they can't.

The NYTimes article says NYC is dead after this. As a 30 year resident, I agree. The things that made it attractive - that were already disappearing due to high rents - are now liabilities. Crowded bars and restaurants, tightly packed theaters, subways, dense population, housing without outdoor space - all formerly why I lived here and now gone or to be avoided.

I can’t imagine that I’m alone. All of us are stuck in small spaces. The joy of NYC was never being in your apartment - the local restaurants and bars and parks were your living space. Not being able to do any of that has made NYC feel like a prison. Ready for a big house with land in the country.

I swear I will move out of NYC at the earliest opportunity. And not for lack of money. I loved it in the late 90's but found it unrecognizable after I moved back in 2018. Fran Lebowitz (whom I love dearly) can have it.

I'd sadly agree, R218. Why someone lives in NYC, the attraction, is now a liability. A city of this size just doesn't go away, but what becomes of it? Clearly millions of people will still live there. Are we jumping the gun? In two years will people be laughing about the hand wringing about the end of NYC? Asia has a lot of big dense cities and have had various health scares.

I hope it's not an either/or situation of packed urban density versus low density suburbs. Personally, I'd like to see more moderate density build with city planning and the ability to walk to most places and public transit.

The older, first ring suburbs of many large cities have that nice mix. But all the McMansions 30-40 miles out of the city center? Good riddance.

I don’t get the appeal of NYC.

NYC will be fine - but it's going to be a while before it is back to normal. People like density and energy. We were meant to live together - not spread out in suburbs with big lawns where no one can walk anywhere and everything is a drive to a strip mall or box store.

For a lot of people, that's not living.

Live in Austin (been here off and on since 80s and family is from here) and I’m delighted to see that people hate it. Austin used to be so lovely before it hit all the top cities lists - now it is almost depressing to drive around and see the sweet nooks and crannies be pushed aside for yet another condo building. It’s not a tourist city at all but a city that needs time to unfold and be discovered. Hopefully, that uniqueness hasn’t disappeared forever. Having said all that, I’m going to by a hypocrite and say that I was stunned at how dirty SF was. I was expecting the most gorgeous American city but there was litter in people’s front sidewalks and they just stepped over it. Stayed with my niece in Inner Sunset area so trip was half-touristy, half insider. Enjoyed it overall but wouldn’t race back. London is my favorite city in the world. Beautiful parks, great shopping, friendly people, incredible architecture and history. Hits all my buttons.

R219 Where will you move? What are you looking for?

R223, the overwhelming majority of Americans chose to live in low density suburbs with big lawns, washer dryers, single home air conditioners, porches, and garages.

I want to pre-empt those who will call me a provincial, defensive Texan by saying that in addition to Austin, I’ve lived in Los Angeles, DC, Dublin IE, and Baltimore.

R198 Would you say that it’s always sunny in Philadelphia? (I kid. I love the show and really liked the city when I last visited.)

R226 - a lot of straight, married people with kids, yes. Young professionals, both gay and straight, without kids usually do not want to be in the far suburbs. It's dead out there.

The “Always Sunny” title is funnily ironic. There is a certain “it’s never sunny/happy” mentality among people here that makes it unpretentious - people do not buy into glamour or glitz like LA or NYC. - or Dallas Just getting by in our rowhome - not big McMansions not small apartments. Don’t expect a lot from life - just enough for a Philly special (beer and a shot) and a cheesesteak. Maybe a week at the Shore in the summer. A fitting mode for life right now,

R225, a smaller yet still vibrant city with a great university, an active arts scene, a great culinary scene, street life, decent weather, easy to reach, good architecture, where I could actually buy a nice house for $ 750.000. In other words: Philly or, maybe, San Diego.

I have to agree with the poster who highlighted the older first ring suburbs or small cities close to much larger cities as those with more appeal. I’ve live in NYC for 30 years and am ready to move on. That said I could never live in the dull drive everywhere bedroom community suburbs where the highlight is trying to grow the best lawn. A smaller city with a walkable downtown that includes F&B and other retail sounds most appealing to me.

R231 you described Bologna Italy.

[quote] The Cuomo dynasty help make it so that the middle-class can't afford to live there anymore

Yeah, right. Mario Cuomo & Andrew Cuomo made New York City unaffordable.

George Pataki’s 3 terms as governor from 1995-2006 never happened. And surely, in 2006, you could buy or rent an apartment for the same price as you did in 1995.

All I know is that I will never live in a non-college town. The energy from a campus changes everything.

The eye candy is unreal

College towns are great. Especially if they are a train ride away to major cities.

Trains? This is America

R147 I looked it up and it was an 800 sq ft unit for 269k! It was in 2008 so I guess we'd already lived there a few years. Same unit would easily fetch 1.5 or more now. Although, I think there were some crazy rules about reselling BMRs.

Regarding city vs suburbs, suburbia can be so terribly boring, soulless, and conformist that many would still prefer the cities even after corona. And everything is dependent on a vehicle. You lose access to a car and you're basically fucked. Funny enough, I found that the most miserable suburbs were the ones adjacent to a large city. It's like you get all the crowding and stress of being around a lot of people without any of the positive aspects of urban life. I would actually prefer a quiet , borderline rural suburb to the suburb of a big city.

What a bunch of Bologna

As I assess my life and wonder where should I move if I lose it all after this is all over, it seems from posters here that Philadelphia is one of the last affordable places that still offers a decent city life and a vibrant gay community. I feel like it would be a big adjustment from LA, but maybe not.

Chicago is still very affordable even in nice areas. So it sounds like Philly or Chicago. I actually think Philly and Chicago are more similar than New York and Chicago are. Philly probably has more interesting neighborhoods, historical sights, older architecture, proximity to nature things and other cities; Chicago has a far better skyline, Lake Michigan, the Chicago River, far cleaner and better food. It's a draw.

[R242] you would not be surrounded by all these enchanting, selfless, and beautiful people anymore but don't worry, Instawhores and Influencers are just a mouse click away. Chances are slim through that you would accidentally meet Harry and Meghan on a charity run. Not enough paparazzi in Philly.

(R203) I went to Siem Riep in January. The weather was really nice...in the 80's. And few bugs.

I found Cambodia to be much more hospitable and friendly than Thailand.

(R216) Most people call it Saigon still. Ho Chi Minh City is for the commies.

Saigon is a lot of fun. I was born there, but hadn't been back until this past December. It's like NYC in terms of being of the business/commercial center of Vietnam (many new skyscrapers and commercial enterprises) and a bustling city (millions of scooters on the roads). The city itself is huge, with many districts (like boroughs) and the boulevards are grand and lined with trees. I wish I had more time there as my tour only gave us 2 nights there. But after Corona is all over, I plan on spending a month in Vietnam (probably spent in Saigon and Da Nang).

Here’s a photo I took from a friend’s Philadelphia penthouse (yes, a 2/2 penthouse with balcony, doorman, valet parking, etc.) overlooking Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia. He paid less than $700K for it about a year ago and absolutely loves living there.

According to OpenTable.com, there are 44 excellent restaurants within a few blocks of the square. And that doesn’t include dozens of coffee shops, bars, bagel and juice places, etc., etc. Multiple churches, museums, cinemas, etc. all within a short walk. The square is beautifully decorated at Christmas, and year round art shows. And soft pretzels everywhere!

Philadelphia has deep Quaker roots, and that “brotherly love” feeling is still there. Extremely gay-friendly.

Yes, there are crummy and poor neighborhoods there just as in big city but, realistically, you’d never find yourself in those areas. The action is all in Center City.

R228 I doubted this and looked it up... you're right, the majority of Americans live in what you can call a suburb. Not overwhelming majority, but over 50%

It is interesting how the suburbs of big cities have changed. Back in the Watergate era up through the George W Bush era, suburbs were generally "safe spots" for Republicans. But since Obama, suburbs of larger cities have become more Democratic strongholds. Not as much as their associated cities, but still. We are living in a time of metro areas, not just a city-suburb dichotomy.

What does anyone think of Louisville being underrated? It’s affordable, friendly, and has some walkable areas along Bardstown rd with gay bars, coffee shops, restaurants surrounded by historic homes. I was pleasantly surprised by it.

R250, I've heard that from several people. I've also heard that Boise is actually a very nice smaller city. The rest of that state is filled with white supremacists though.

Louisville would be fine, R250. Honestly at this stage in my life - I'm 47 - any city that has those amenities I could probably handle and enjoy - it comes down to things like cost and weather, diversity, personal interests. But, I think I could make it work in a lot of big or big-ish cities. Not all, but the majority.

Philadelphia is no longer a real estate haven...it’s become quite pricey, no thanks to hipsters and gentrification.

What are you talking about, R253? What are you comparing Philly prices to... the excitement of living in some Deplorable-packed Red State? Go to Zillow and look at comps in the BIG cities that have a lot to offer and you’ll see that you pay a bit more for living in a sophisticated area.

And as for hipsters and gentrification, why do think the places that attract them become so popular?

R253 can you give us examples of what you consider pricey?

Portland, Maine is a pip.

Hipsters did not make things more expensive - it started in the 80's and just spiraled out of control. Most millennials do not own.

Seattle is overrated.

Is Raleigh a nice city? They apparently have big plans for developing the downtown area, its foreign born population continues to grow and it is known to attract a large number of middle and upper-middle class black Americans.

Having grown up in NY I expected to be unimpressed with Chicago. I would move there in a heart beat if the weather was not so fucked up. It has everything good that that NYC has to offer but is much more affordable than NYC. LOVED the neighborhoods of Chicago. All the various ethnicities in each one. The neighborhoods, the architecture, all the museums, parks and the food make Chicago what it is.

R260 - I did my time in Chicago. It's great for a lot of reasons - but it isn't NY. But nothing is. Each city is different. I lived a long time in NYC as well.

A part of the money you can bank in Chicago should be used to get out of the winter several times each year. I used to go to Mexico, Palm Springs and Fort Lauderdale about 3-4 times per winter for short periods in Jan and Feb. It made it a lot easier to live there.

Overall, your standard of living is soooo much higher in Chicago than in NYC. There are trade-offs with everything.

But, weather-wise, the temp difference yearly between NYC and Chicago is 1 degree Fahrenheit. That's it. The problem is the infrequent winter snaps in Chicago that come down from Canada - you don't get that in NYC. Those cold days are cold AF - but not as often as you hear in the news.

There are roads in third-world countries that are in better maintained that the roads in Detroit.

R262 - true. In fact, a well-maintained smooth road is an outlier. The highways in Detroit are the most fucked up roads I've ever driven on.

Oh - and, not surprisingly, Detroit roads have almost 100% American-made cars. It's bizarre - it's so unlike the rest of the nation.

R261, as a Chicagoan, I can say I would kill to have NYC winters. You guys get less negative temp days than we do AND you guys get a significant amount of sunshine in the winter compared to us. The lack of sunshine is what bugs me the most more than the negative temps honestly. This winter was apparently grayer than the one in Seattle!! You can imagine how dreary it was.

Yes, Detroit roads remind me of country backroads. They are BAD. Honestly, it's time we raise that gas tax--America's infrastructure is like 40 years too old.

R264 - don't act so fast - NY has been dumped with a lot more large individual snowfall totals than Chicago the past 10 years.

And save some of your money and go away in the winter! Chicago is cheaper than Seattle and far cheaper than NYC.

Have you lived in NYC? - Just asking.

R266, fair point. Nope, never lived there, but I've visited and my best friend move from Chicago to NYC recently. Did you feel like you were happy in Chicago after being in NYC? And to be fair, snow is more of an issue if you drive (which happens more in Chicago). At least that's how I view it. Walking in snow doesn't suck as much as driving in it.

R116 Exactly. If you go to all the tourist-traps in Vegas and think that THAT encapsulates Las Vegas, you're VERY wrong. You need to see the Vegas that the residents know. Lots of beautiful desert scenery, homes, great south-western weather.

I"ve also heard from people that Salt Lake City is stunning and the mountains are nicer than the ones in Colorado. I have to admit I feel way less threatened by Mormons than the Evangelicals from the South or plains.

I found Omaha to be neither overrated nor underrated; just rated.

I dunno about that R269. My partner and I got constant stares walking around Salt Lake City and the nearby smaller towns... and it’s not like we are obvious types.

R267 - I'll be honest. I grew up in both Chicago and NYC. My mom's originally from NY but lived in Chicago also a long time. My family has a long history with both cities.

I moved from NYC to Chicago at age 27 and spent 18 years there. I was content there, but I did miss NYC's energy. I don't think you ever get that out of your system. It's addictive.

Now, the tradeoff is that I was able to live a really great life in Chicago that I would never be able to afford in NYC. I was also able to take care of my aging mother and I had other family in Chicago. I also saved a lot of money and could afford a condo by myself.

Financially, I know I'm much better off now for moving to Chicago than staying in NYC. I would save $100-$200 per paycheck all year to have the means to take some great multiple winter getaways. It really saved me.

I would argue Jan and Feb in any Northern US city is no fun. It's not like 20 degrees versus 30 degrees is a lifestyle change - you're still indoors. (But I will say Minneapolis is fucking brutal - once you go below 15 degrees, life sucks.)

And I disagree - walking in the snow is much worse than driving in it. Streets are plowed - and Chicago's streets are plowed actually very well compared to other cities. Walking through snow and slush and cold for block after block is soul- punishing.

Love Rome, LA, Sag Harbor, Portland Maine, Athens, Dublin, Copenhagen, NYC.

Overrated Barcelona, Paris, Vegas, Miami, Venice.

R272, good post. And you are so right about the cost savings. In nice parts of Chicago, you can still find some nice 650 sq ft one bedroom apartments for like $1200. That's impossible in Manhattan, at least based on Zillow, rent.com, etc. Chicago is a more conservative city in ways. It's more of a blue-collar Democrat city than ultra-liberal one (if that makes sense). In LA, NYC and Toronto you can find sex shops in areas in or near downtown but not in Chicago. But I still love the city. The comments on this thread have made me consider moving to a medium-sized sunbelt city like Raleigh in the future. Those are the kinds of cities that continue to get all the advanced (for instance, tech) jobs and they are still cheap and growing more diverse by the minute.

R274 - R272 here - how old are you and what do you do?

R275, I am 32. I am in the supply chain field. Any advice for me :-)

R276 - that's great. 32 is a great age - but it's also a time to set things for the rest of your life. I'm sure you have that feeling.

Supply chain management seems to be something that's not tied to geography. You know more than I.

The only advice I can tell you for your age is this: if you do not feel like you're on the right path with imminent growth in your career, then you need to make plans to go to some other company NOW. (well, after Corona is through with her drama tantrum).

Your 30s are crucial years. If you've been somewhere for a long time, often they see you as that junior person and don't ever see you as being ready for a mangement/executive position.

You are talented and smart enough to be in a higher position - you have to tell yourself this. Sure, there are things that will be hard - but you've done that your whole life.

If you don't get to some management or executive position by 35-38, then the odds are against you of ever getting there. (He's 38 and he's never done..xxx?? )

Hope that helps - I've had 3 glashes (sp on purpose) of wine, so hope it is coherent. And for perspective, I've been there and aggressively clawed my way up in my 30's when I realized hard work was not going to cut it.

Love: Chicago, nyc, Boston, Montreal, London, Seattle

Hate: Dallas, Houston, Vancouver-sooooo overrated, New Orleans but love Algiers point

R277, I actually just got laid off two weeks ago from the company I was with for only less than a year. If I wasn't let go, I was on my way to becoming more "promotable". The job I get next will need to be one that can lead me to a management position or one where I can at least move up to some other position. You're advice is great! And you're also right about hard work not being enough--networking really can make or break someone's desirability. I'm learning all of that now (all over again). Currently working on improving my LinkedIn and networking more effectively on it.

R279 - thanks for responding. But I will say - networking is a buzzword that isn't as reliable as you'd think.

Here's what I did at your age. 1) I took a job that wasn't great but allowed me with access to all the VPs and technology I need to know. It was an awesome learning experience - but I did a lot of off-hours work to learn more about the areas I was deficient in .

2) I got the trust of the execs I knew and then I identified areas that needed work/supervision. I created 2 roles for myself that way.

3) Most importantly, I set down with several manager and VPs and I did a promotion 'plan'. I wouldn't do this your first year at a new company, but it all depends. Basically, you ask them - what do you want to see in me or do in order for you to feel good to promote me to the next position? If them hem and haw, then say - I will create one that you can tweak. Then, every month, supply them via email a list of the work you've done to prove that you can do that work.

At the end of 6-12 months, no supervisor or executive can deny you a promotion if you've checked in with them monthly and did what you say you did.

Be aware - your peers will hate your ass soooo bad, but that comes with the territory. (And do NOT ever tell them what you did to get a promotion.)

A promotion is based on an emotional and factual persuasion. Does that make sense?

R280 here - sorry for grammar errors in my post - it's almost 11pm here in California and my edible has kicked in to add onto the wine!

R280, 100%. It's funny because my previous role WAS one where I had access to a lot of VPs and got me a lot of attention.I was doing many of the things you listed out--in fact, I was checking in weekly with my boss with a list of things I completed and trying to go above and beyond while learning all the ropes of the business. I wish I was still there but it is what it is. Oh well, I am willing to do the same kind of thing at the next company/role I'm in. And no problem about the grammar errors lol.

R282 - that's awesome. Here's the thing - some managers/execs will not be receptive at first. But they will be impressed as hell at your initiative. Keep pressing it - otherwise promotions in the company are based on no definitive criteria, which is a bad sign.

You need to formalize the process though - everyone has weekly updates with their boss. But did you do a promotion plan?

And 2 more things - some companies have limited potential growth - the response you have from this may give you an indication. Second, people change or modify their careers many times in their lives. Look for opportunities or interest in other departments. I switched several times.

R283, I will look into developing promotion plans for my next job. I appreciate all the advice.

Ugh - R283 here - sorry for hijacking the thread. My bad. My paternal instincts got the best of me.

What is a city that still has its original "magic," culture, sense of life and excitement? One that has not been gentrified, sterilized, commercialized, corporatized, millionaire/homeless polarized? One with a thriving, interesting middle class and culture? Is there any city left that is still real?

My Top: New York City, London, Florence, Boston.

Absolute Shit: Philadelphia

I‘m not a fan of any city in the US other than NYC and Boston although Santa Fe is charming. I hate all of Asia, the Middle East and Jamaica so cross their cities off my list.

I also love any city in Italy (except for Naples) and love England, France and Spain.

I love Barcelona

The country’s three largest metropolitan areas, New York, Los Angeles and Chicago, all lost population in the past several years, according to an analysis by William Frey, a demographer at the Brookings Institution. Even slightly smaller metro areas, like Houston, Washington, D.C., and Miami grew more slowly than before. In all, growth in the country’s major metropolitan areas fell by nearly half over the course of the past decade, Mr. Frey found.

R286 - what you describe is Philly. Much of the city is middle class. Very little pretentiousness or hyper-capitalism/gentrification. Yes, some areas have become hipster. But not trust fund hipster - they are right next to multi-generational poor or middle class homes. Kids can start a business and live on very little - which is the key for a creative, non-corporate city.

The hate it gets is because it does have poverty and a working class attitude - but that also makes it affordable. The poverty is in outlying parts of the city - the ones you see on Amtrak as you pass through. But, unlike SF, LA, Detroit, there is not a massive homeless problem. In part because affordable housing - but also because the city has been very effective at finding, housing and providing support services to the mentally ill homeless.

It is true that in the most desirable suburbs close to major cities so residents can have the best of both worlds, the property taxes are prohibitive and you have to factor in really requiring at least one if not two autos.

But the cost of living in places like New York and San Francisco and London have gotten well beyond ludicrous. Even Boston is extremely expensive, and for the poster upthread who likes college towns, one downside of college town is that they drive up the rents in places that Boston, which is otherwise a smaller, more manageable New York City. Boston is surrounded by/near to Harvard, Tufts,MIT, BU, Northeastern . . . Cambridge is just a half hour from Boston.

Brookline virtually abuts Boston, but is considered a suburb of Boston having retained its independence, and offers high-end suburban living that in some places is technically right across the street from Boston.

There are ways to combine values, but, yes, it will cost.

For the record for northeastener types, Connecticut's property taxes are a fraction of New York's. You'll pay more for a house in, say, Greenwich and New Canaan, the Gold Coast in CT, than you will in Pleasantville or Armonk or Irvington, but you'll pay about one-third to one-half the property taxes in NY depending on the size and price. Nice little $800,000 1970s split ranch in Pleasantville, NY: taxes $18,000 a year. In Greenwich or New Canaan, you would pay the same or less property taxes on a beautiful 1930s colonial with a pool priced at $1.6 million.

Hated:

Atlanta- oppressively hot, clogged freeways with terrible drivers, no character or beauty

Memphis- shithole

Buffalo- Jesus where do I start

Philadelphia- rundown shithole minus the suburbs

Baltimore- when you're afraid to go to a fucking ballgame because the area looks like episode 1 of Cops, not impressed.

Newark, NJ- Jesus, I was so not prepared for how ugly it was.

Wichita, KS- real rednecks. Seriously, I've been there five times and hated almost everyone I met. Guys calling each other faggot everywhere. I went to a restaurant and some 20 year old redneck threatened to kick my ass all because I barely touched him trying to squeeze past his chair that he was leaning back on. It wasn't an isolated incident either, every time I've been there I've encountered multiple Ben Afflecks in Dazed and Confused. I feel so sorry for every gay boy who had to grow up there.

Surprised to love:

Mexico City- during the rainy season when there's no smog.

Minneapolis- pretty in the winter but wouldn't want to live there when it's that cold. Pretty perfect in the summer.

Couer d'Alene, ID- stunning, one of the most beautiful cities in America,

Charleston-the only American city that deserves to be snobby. Really pretty, and so much to see.

San Antonio- the perfect convention city. Fun great food, easy to get around, lots to see and do.

What is so special about Minneapolis in summer? I've been there in the summer. A big ol' shoulder shrug. It's not as bad as I expected, but that's not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Not sure how 3 months of the year makes up for the winter nightmare.

R272: You sound like a baby. Cold weather---you cultivate interests---winter sports, reading more, going to indoor places like museums, performances, etc. It's really not difficult. I lived in Atlanta for a number of years--summer was miserable for being outdoors--even natives complained. It's easier to throw on layers and show a tiny bit of creative thinking to live through winter.

Damn R288, you is picky!!!

I love Minneapolis all year. I was last there in December, and absolutely loved it. People embrace winter and outdoor sports and activities keep the region buzzing. I love Minnesotans

Are there any California cities that surprised you all? I'm curious about the smaller cities in the Sacramento metro area - Roseville, Auburn, etc.

I didn’t get the hype about Minneapolis either. Not the prettiest city. Not a lot of street life. Some nice residential neighborhoods. But overall kinda meh. Factor in the brutal, long winter - and it’s a definite no.

R293 - San Antonio has improved greatly over the last twenty years. The variety of food and culture is, like 100% over what it used to be. The only ethnic food you used to be able to get was Latino.

That said, the warmer months are unbearable due to the humidity.

Santa Fe can be snobby sometimes. Corrales, NM is more down-to-earth.

But wherever I went, whatever I did, it finally got to me that Buenos Aires was my own private prison. That's when I decided to run away. I went to Montevideo and got a job singing in a nightclub, started divorce proceedings, and met a man.

I fantasize about living in a small college town… I know I would be bored out of my mind in about six months though.

R302: you'd have stayed, G, if you could have found something at the Edificio Kavanagh

Corrales is very green for NM, and it doesn't have quite the plateau feel of Santa Fe and Taos. It's actually part of Albuquerque, technically. Lots of trees - mostly cottonwoods, but lots of olive trees as well.

Look up the water regs before buying: the village doesn't have a centralised water system.

Santa Fe isn't so much snobby as terribly divided in a way not uncommon these days, between the haves and have nots. It's a poor state, NM, with one of the worst education systems in America. Los Alamos and Santa Fe and Taos attract the highly educated outsiders. People who live on Museum Hill rarely interact with people who live on Airport Road.

But that's little different from people who live in Park Slope in Brooklyn having little to do with people who live in Red Hook.

Hated: Warsaw, Poland Love: London, Paris, Tokyo

San Antonio is awful. been there multiple times, most recently last year. I've never liked it and everyone I knew hated it. The Riverwalk is a big nothing---mediocre restaurants. The mission tour takes through very rundown neighborhoods to see unrestored missions---the best of the mission area part was all the 1930s motel architecture---that area must have been the the visitor trail of its time. And for people complaining about homeless, the area around the river walk is a magnet for them. I did have really good brisket, but that wasn't enough to every want a return trip..

r306 I love Warsaw!

And I love Polish COCK.

Loved Prague - gorgeous city

Loved Salzburg, not so much Vienna, which is rapidly losing its character the way London, Paris, and so many others are doing. But Salzburg retains its Old World charm, as does Prague.

On the fence about Budapest. Some of it is gorgeous but Soviet rule built those hideous soulless concrete apartment blocs across the river - depends which side you are looking at.

Warsaw, however, wasn't the equal of any of the above.

R307, don't forget those big assed San Antonio Women.

I liked San Antonio. The Riverwalk is a smaller, water based version of Bourbon Street. They have also extended it in a lot of directions which made for an interesting walk. There is some history in the area - possibly the only city in Texas with any sense of history. The warehouse district was unique with nice hotels. Culturally unique Mexican Texas vs blah cowboy Dallas. Throw in a few gay bars and excellent Tex Mex, and it was one of my favorite cities in the South. Not glamorous or over exciting but an enjoyable weekend.

Krakow is enchanting.

Loved: Shangri-La

Loved: Metropolis

Loved Santa Rosa in "Shadow of a Doubt".

Can we move into cities we loved as portrayed in film?

Loved Manhattan in "The World of Henry Orient" and "Breakfast at Tiffany's"

Loved London in "Four Weddings and a Funeral" and "A Hard Day's Night"

Loved San Francisco in the remake of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"

R316 SF, San Juan Bautista and Carmel in Vertigo, SF in Rear Window. LA in Double Indemnity.

R317 - LA in "Double Indemnity" - great choice!

R316

Paris in "Charade"

The Hebrides in "I Know Where I'm Going"

Irish country villages in "The Quiet Man"

Philadelphia in “1776”

From another thread: Los Angeles from Xanadu. Those who grew up there during that period can remember it fondly.

New York in Billy Wilder's "The Apartment"

Savannah in "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" (the city's acting was far better than that of Clint's daughter)

L.A. in "Dead Again"

Greenwich Village in "Desperately Seeking Susan"

Prague in "The Illusionist" (it was supposed to be Austria but it was shot in Prague)

Annie Hall's Manhattan.

Not surprisingly, Boston strikes me as just about the perfect city for my tastes. Not for my wallet, unfortunately—about 16 years ago I looked at apartment prices out of curiosity and one room studios cost almost twice as much as the 2br walk-up I had in a historic building in Memphis. But, you know, if a relative turns out to be a secret billionaire I might move there someday and give up driving.

I did really enjoy living in Memphis. Probably second of the cities I've been to after New Orleans in terms of food and entertainment, without the miserable sauna-like atmosphere and nightmarish exit ramps. I lived on the block between an expressway and a rehab facility, so I wouldn't have recommended my area to someone looking to start a family. But I could drive a couple miles East or West to nice parks, restaurants, theaters, and music venues.

San Diego might be beautiful but lacks something.

Tucson is VERY underrated and is a great small city. Very historic, very beautiful. So is Galveston.

San Francisco circa 1947 from Bogart and Bacall’s DARK PASSAGE.

See clips of SF from the movie in the link below.

San Diego is beautiful within a short distance to the water, but not anywhere else----mostly a reminder that you're living in an environmentally unsustainable desert. A friend of mine summed it up as great if you like water but otherwise a cultural desert (he's lived there almost his entire adult life, but travels extensively). Hillcrest seems to be filled with unhappy looking older guys---a lot of people who survived the peak years in SF moved to SD for sun and cheaper house prices, before they descended on Palm Springs.

R37 yes you've described Bland Diego

People were talking about cities in movies and shows.

Miami looks great in Burn Notice. I've been there multiple times and seen a little of that. I've also seen the absolute shithole side.

I agree with the cities R44 mentioned, even Portland, Oregon and I live here. I probably wouldn't live in Portland except I have family and friends here. Would add Las Vegas to my list. When I first visited these cities, except for Portland, I was surprised that I disliked visiting, just because I had heard so many great things from others. I like speading time in NYC and go as often as possible. I used to like Washington D.C. but #45 and his swamp soured me and when I was there two years ago it felt strange.

Internationally, I was surprised how much I liked visiting Cairo and have been back several times. I also am in love with Edinburgh and also very much like Nice, Bordeaux, Montreux, and Berlin too. I'll most likely not visit Venice again or Warsaw. I was surprised how much I like visiting London during the Christams season.

I’d loved to have lived in Nice, France, circa 1955 when TO CATCH A THIEF was filmed.

In fact, I’d like to live there NOW!

R331 - Just be careful on those hairpin curves, John.

The Côte d'Azur is still very much gorgeous. However, it's not a place to be a loner.

But I like living alone here in the hills overlooking Nice. Just me and my housekeeper, Germaine. You know, she strangled a German general - without a sound.

Cat, you have a housekeeper so you are not alone. When you aren't faking it with pussy, tu fais une pipe on those rocks by Antibes. I've seen you.

R35. Je n'ai pas besoin de masturbation. J’ai un jeune homme qui m'aide avec mes vignes. Cette fille, Francie, ne m'intéresse pas.

Landing on Madrid's ultra modern Barajas airport, taking the subway, getting off at La Latina station and emerging into a cool, vibrant, XV century architecture city is something I wish I could do at least once a year.

I fucking LOVE Madrid.

Hated Denver. Beige nightmare.

I agree, R338. Before I ever went there, I thought I'd really like it. I didn't. Nice skyline though.

Naples, Florida.

The critic Edmund Wilson captured its essence in six words: "This pastel hell, this sunlit nightmare"

At least Blucifer adds some color to Denver.

Tasteful Dataloungers,

I had trips booked to Europe and Japan this summer, but I might have to cancel them.

I was thinking of doing a month-long rental in June and July in an American city instead (preferably one that's not shut down by then). BTW, I live 70 miles from Palm Springs and don't want to get away from California.

Any suggestions?

(R342) here. Sorry I meant to say, "I want to get out of California."

R342 - I'm not far from you and I was looking for the same thing! Provided that we can actually book a rental in July or August.

I'm in Palm Springs right now - I just can't do August here, particularly as things look that they won't be fully open.

This probably requires a different thread. Just like how this thread was hijacked by people describing cities in films - not really what this thread is about.

Start another thread and I can give you some of the options I've been looking at.

R342 - Re your "out of California" getaway, in June and July a great many American cities will be extremely warm and humid. Otherwise, I'd recommend places like Charleston or Washington, DC (which is underrated in terms of cultural attractions, by the way). New York is out of the question - its summer weather is brutal most years. Boston and Chicago, likewise. If you're looking for something very different, try Santa Fe, NM. It's warm in summer but dry. But June-July is also "monsoon" month. If you go in August, you can attend Indian Market, held the third weekend of every August. If it isn't cancelled this year, it's a phenomenal event, bringing 100,000 visitors in for the weekend to see and buy the best of Native artifacts from pottery to painting to weaving to jewellery. The Market spools out from the central Plaza down the sidestreets, and usually, there isn't a hotel room left in the city for that weekend by now.

But even if Indian Market is cancelled, it might still be a nice visit in the summer, and you can drive north to Taos. The Santa Fe Opera and SF Chamber Music Festival will be on, as well. And it's not too far from CA so the flight is likely to be much less fraught.

If you think NYC summers are “brutal,” you will melt in DC

R346 - Yes, true, I forgot to mention that. DC is built on a swamp and feels like it in the summer. But Boston and NY and Chicago are hardly less bad, in my opinion.

How about a summer getaway in Northern California? The Big Sur area has great temps and there’s lots to see. Nearby is San Francisco, which can be downright cold in August!

The duration of heat and extent of it in DC is much worse than NYC and Boston. It can get hot in DC from Mid May to early October. Summer comes early and leaves late in DC. Upper 90s are not unusual in summer in DC. Cold fronts are few and far between in summer. NYC and Boston have much shorter summers with more frequent reprieves from heat. DC heat is often relentless.

How are Baltimore and Philly in summer? Baltimore has a famous library I always wanted to visit. Philly has - well you know.

R350, not sure what you mean about the library in Philadelphia. It’s one of the nation's most prestigious public libraries with a spectacular Beaux Arts headquarters and 54 satellite libraries all over the area.

Forgot add this link.

Baltimore is very similar to DC, a smidge cooler

Further to R349, Boston averages about ten days each summer with temperatures over 90F. It can be muggy (humid) at times but it's hardly oppressive. Likewise there are occasional heatwaves with high temperatures for three or four days at a time, but the the average temperature in July is 81F and most afternoons there's a breeze off the ocean that knocks the temperature down by five to ten degrees depending on how close you are to the water.

It's nothing like the heat island effect of NYC or the summer heat in Washington.

Regarding Philadelphia weather, having grown up there, I’d say the key word is “moderate”. Yes, sometimes it gets hot and humid and sometimes it get wintry... but all in all I think it’s the best all around weather in that part of the country.

Here’s why:

“Philadelphia is located at the confluence of the Delaware and Schuylkill rivers on the eastern border of Pennsylvania. The Appalachian Mountains to the west and the Atlantic Ocean to the east moderate the climate, eliminating extremes of hot and cold weather. Occasionally during the summer months the city becomes engulfed in ocean air that brings high humidity. Precipitation is fairly evenly distributed throughout the year, with maximum amounts during the summer months occasionally flooding the Schuylkill River. Snowfall is usually higher in the northern suburbs than in the city, where snow often turns to rain. High winds sometimes prevail during the winter months.”

Thanks R351. I meant the Peabody Library in Baltimore, which is spectacular. With respect to Philly I meant the usual tourist sites, was not aware of its great library system. I admire that in NYC too, especially the smaller branches, like the Tompkins Square Library.

The average high in DC in July is 89 degrees

R254 show us were the bad man touched you using this doll.

R358. What are you talking about? Very odd comment.

And “where” is not spelled “were”. I think you’re the same troll that spells “does” as “dose.”

I've been in Chicago in the summer multiple times and found it very nice. Mind you, I'm from a landlocked state in the South so I laugh at y'all's delicate constitutions just like someone from New Orleans would at mine. Try hiking around a wildlife preserve when it's 95° with a heat index of 118° sometime, bitches!

I've been in Chicago in the summer multiple times and found it very nice. Mind you, I'm from a landlocked state in the South so I laugh at y'all's delicate constitutions just like someone from New Orleans would at mine. Try hiking around a wildlife preserve when it's 95° with a heat index of 118° sometime, bitches!

Thought I would love Vancouver and hated it. Sorry, Hongcouver.

I had to travel to Edinburgh for business and thought I'd hate it and loved it. I've been back a couple of times.

Montreal omg wow

Care to elaborate, R363? Good or bad?

R364 I went in September for a month. The weather was fantastic. The men were ridiculously hot. The food was incredible. The city is very walkable…You could spend hours just walking around exploring neighborhoods. Plus it’s so close to amazing parks and other parts of Quebec…

^^ The McGill twinks are spectacular.

r365 How cool that you were able to go for a month!

Canadian Dataloungers,

Will Canada be open for business when June comes? Will it be welcoming Americans?

R367 Luckily I work from home so it’s easy to just pack up my laptop and take off! Thank god for Airbnb!

I really like Vancouver. Beautiful city.

Are there any hot mostly-straight men in Dallas that will fuck guys from time to time?

Being a New Yorker, people would say that I’d love San Francisco, that SF is the NYC of the West Coast.

But I didn’t feel that at all, the times I’d been there. I liked the gritty, corrupt energy of LA.

R372 Chinatown grown up fo' real in LA... Old Pasadena money keeping East Hollywood prostitutes on the payroll. Identity politics accruing power... who do you know? The best of LA is outside the showbiz orbit.

I was born and raised in LA... live in Bay Area now. SF is a nice weekend trip. LA is a city.

I love LA. I completely understand why it's a love-hate city and why people might hate it. But, I love it.

Tulsa was so overrated. Most people have teeth there!

Love: New York, Boston, Denver, Flagstaff

Hate: Vegas, San Antonio, Downtown Los Angeles, Philly

I love Chicago, DC, Winston-Salem, and Minneapolis

Hate: Vegas. Dislike: Seattle.

Don't come to Seattle - you would hate it. The clean air, mountains you can access in 30 minutes, water sports everywhere. Sometimes it rains but no snow. (you have to drive 30 min for that- bummer). The people are too darn intelligent. Its expensive, but that is another reason to stay away. If you like fashionable and trendiness, this is not the place to be. The continuous bounty of fresh seafood is also a drag. Do not consider relocating here!

^by watersports he means 8-9 months of drizzle so any outside activities are thereby “watersports”

R379 If Seattle had any sense of humor it would actually be considered a real city. People don’t laugh at all. You’re way too smart and introverted to have anything funny to say. And please don’t rattle off your list of comedy clubs… Because they're never filled.

The food in Seattle is awful. The people are weird and strange. It’s a beautiful place that is insular and provincial.

Yeah, I heard people in Seattle are very unfriendly. Is it just because the bad weather takes its toll?

I've never been able to get a feel for what exactly the Northwest vibe is.

They have a whole Cascadia thing going on.

It’s a very introverted city and superficially friendly. I like that vibe but it’s tough on extroverts.

Also full of people who moved here from everywhere else to be woke and edgy, which gets tiresome after awhile. A lot of straight people who call themselves queer, if you get my drift. Then will then lecture the gays on oppression.

R379 through R386

The "Seattle Freeze" has been with us for a century, so don't blame the tech nerds. It started in the aftermath of World War One and the Spanish flu epidemic of 1918-1919 with clashes between natives and newcomers, opposition to immigration, racism (the Pacific Northwest for all its vaunted liberalism was a Ku Klux Klan hotbed in the 1920's), the ongoing clash between urban and rural areas, and the influenza quarantine: gathering with strangers, Seattleites learned, could be deadly.

It didn't start recently - people in Seattle have been frosting newcomers for years.

Agree Vegas and Seattle were disappointing.

Live in NYC - would prefer living in Denver or in Palm Springs.

R389 - Denver would have been a good choice 15 years ago. Sprawl ruined it.

Palm Springs - you have to like the desert. As noted upthread, blisteringly hot from May through September.