Theatre Gossip #384, the "Aaron Tveit, Danny Burstein and Gavin Creel Cough Into a Bar..." Edition

I come here not to praise Linda Lavin but to say I agree with the other poster who said she might have been pretty variable. She was ok the night I saw her. I didn't think she was as awful as people say. The show played and I didn't come out thinking well that was dreadful. And she is quite wonderful on the obc of Superman one of those if only I had a time machine musicals for me.

The only good thing about Linda Lavin is she's not Bonnie Franklin

Linda, Linda, Linda!!!

Linda Lavin, Beth Howland and Polly Holliday in Sisters! The new Chekov musical...

To the person in the other thread who posted the link to Lucky Stiff. I had never heard of it, but I watched it, and it was absolutely delightful. It is not a video of a live presentation; rather, it is a film of a Flaherty/Aherns musical which played briefly at Playwrights Horizon. The music is great, and the acting was wonderful. Pamela Shaw, whom I had never heard of, was hysterical, and Dominic Marsh, another actor I was unfamiliar with, was absolutely adorable. Thanks for posting it. I love discovering something new and enjoyable.. I will repost the link, so anyone who is interested doesn't have to search the old thread.

R5 I did find it charming.

And about Jonathan Pryce, if it was "not much of a stretch" why did they give him prosthetic eyes which made him look more Asian? They got rid of the prosthetics when the show came to NYC, but still....they kind of the smoking gun of yellowface.

[quote]Actually, the part of the Engineer was supposed to be Eurasian, so it wasn't quite that much of a stretch.

I am aware that the character is supposed to be Eurasian, but a MAJOR point of the show is that he's supposed to feel stuck in Vietnam and not able to become part of mainstream American (or European) society because he looks so obviously Asian. If the role is played by a tall white guy who looks completely British and not remotely Asian, the story makes not one iota of sense, no matter how good the acting is.

[quote]If it was "not much of a stretch" why did they give him prosthetic eyes which made him look more Asian? They got rid of the prosthetics when the show came to NYC, but still....they kind of the smoking gun of yellowface.

Exactly. I don't think he had "prosthetic eyes" in London, I think it was heavy makeup, but your point is still very valid. According to the pictures, in London, Pryce looked ridiculous in the part because the half-assed yellowface makeup was so horrendous, but on Broadway, he looked ridiculous because he looked totally like a tall, pasty, 100 percent white guy.

Linda Lavin is terrific on this episode of "Rhoda", playing a high school rival who was mistakenly invited to Rhoda's bridal shower.

This appearance may have led to CBS casting Linda in "Alice".

OMG - this interview begins with the horrible ALICE opening. I can only [italic]hope [/italic]the rest is as annoying!!

Part 1 of 3

Part 2 of 3

Part 3 of 3

You're all loving Linda's brand new album, I assume?

Whoever told Linda Lavin she could sing?

I don't think she hit a single note in the version of the Alice intro at R10.

It's really remarkable how one person can be so flat and so sharp so often in 30 seconds.

Listen to her in SUPERMAN and THE MAD SHOW, r14. She sounds great. And actually, he voice hasn’t aged nearly as much as some.

I've heard her in Superman and The Mad Show, R15. And my criticism is the same.

[quote] It's really remarkable how one person can be so flat and so sharp so often in 30 seconds.

I’ve always been known as a woman who can do it all!

Only fair - -

So how are Aaron, Danny and Gavin?

I heard Aaron the the plague. Poor Danny is dealing with his wife's ALS... And Gavin??

Is Gavin rotting into the floor of his upstate cottage?

Has anyone heard from him since his appearance on the Rosie O. revival show the other week?

Does LL's new album feature any inspired scatting?

Danny is also recovering from the virus. It seems to have gotten around Moulin Rouge cast.

^ Meant to add that I read contradictory accounts of whether Danny had to hospitalized but he was definitely sick and had to isolate himself from Rebecca.

no, the only contradictory accounts were if Danny had been in the hospital for two weeks. He was not.

R23, I assume you can trust Rebecca Luker’s own comments about her husband, don’t you think? On March 27, she tweeted “My sweet husband is home from the hospital and doing well, thank the Lord.” The tweet is right there on her Twitter, about the third tweet down. If anyone told you different, they didn’t know what they were talking about.

“ I am home. I’m beyond exhausted. I went through the whole Covid-19 experience and came out of it alive. Wasn’t sure that would be the case. I haven’t slept in two weeks and I desperately need to rest. I’ll update things as they go along. Just know I am on the mend. “

Danny’s post

R19, Danny is on the mend for the virus, and Aaron & Gavin both have it, but fairly mild cases.

Nick Cordero, though, is seriously ill with it and in the hospital.

Getting back to Roz, was her film ROSIE ever on DVD? I enjoyed it for her performance.

R8, the prosthesis have been documented in many press reports and are visible in photographs.

Linda Lavin can be truly great. She was wonderful in Allergist's Wife. If you’ve never seen her in anything but Alice, watch her episode of The Sopranos where she plays Meadow's psychiatrist. Brilliant performance.

Her performance in Follies in DC, on the other hand; all wrong. It’s like her intelligence as an actress just abandons her when she’s given the chance to sing.

Lavin was also great in The Lyons.

Dreaming of Matthew Scott and Present Laughter...

R28, Sandra Dee as her granddaughter, Audrey Meadows as her daughter.

Some fun stuff for my fellow musicals queens. From Musical Theater West (major regional in Long Beach, CA.) There's more on their Facebook page, but I can't link to it here.

Is Gavin as ripe as he was during HAIR?

Interesting tidbits of gossip in this article about the post-Broadway success of "Addams Family."

I wonder if Linda was even asked to participate in the recent reading of "Tale Of The Allergist's Wife". My guess would be NO.

Why the hate for Linda Lavin? She's never bothered me in any of her performances. The interview posted above is actually quite good.

Don't know if someone posted this in the other thread but "Flowers for Mrs Harris" will stream for free, for a limited time.

The musical will begin streaming this Thursday, April 9th and will remain available for viewers for a limited period of 30 days, up to May 8th, 2020.

For those who want to help the Actors Fund

Playbill Playback, is a new series in which old and recent favorite musicals can be streamed on Playbill.com

It was great to see Charles Busch play the role, though.

in "Allergist's Wife".

Linda has elected not to return to that role, even when she directed it at her own theatre, R38. She played the mother in that production.

I wouldn't read anything into it that the original cast wasn't in the recent reading. Tony Roberts and Michele Lee and Marilu Henner weren't in it either, Linda wasn't the only one. Kind was a replacement on Broadway opposite Rhea Perlman, right?

Antigone.

The Seagull. - Sidney Lumet.

Raul Julia documentary.

R40, thank you for that link. I just want to say, if any of you do have the money - I know it's scary financially for everyone now, but a few of you have indicated you've got disposable funds - the Actors' Fund is a great place to support right now. They help everyone in the theatre, not just actors, and they are going to be getting a lot of requests now, because it seems so up in the air about the kind of help entertainment pros can get right now.

I thought Lavin was supposed to play the mother. Didn't she?

She did, r48. See r43.

Patti’s more quiet rendition of DCFMA and interview

That hairdo looks great on Patti. It really softens her features. Of course, it would be wrong for the 70 year old woman she is now, but it's great on young Patti.

R51 I agree.

Gavin Creel ripe? I'd love to bury my face in his ripe crotch. Beautiful and crazy talented man.

[quote]Linda Lavin can be truly great. She was wonderful in Allergist's Wife.

Anyone know if there is a bootleg of the original production and hiding online somewhere?

That was a lovely rendition of Don’t Cry For Me. Maybe the best I’ve heard.

In the recent online reading of ALLERGIST'S WIFE that was done as a COVID benefit for The Actors' Fund, the mother was played by Andrea Martin, but in a live performance benefit for the same organization that was done in November, Lavin played the role. Charles Busch said he asked her if she wanted to recreate her original role but she basically said she was more comfortable playing the mother, so he played her role. And brilliantly, I might add (judging from his performance in the online version).

A sad, sad comment on our culture and educational systems, r36.

You know it's a slow news day when Linda Lavin takes over the DL....

Linda Lavin was fantastic in The Tale Of The Allegist Wife Linda's performance - especially that speech about her Mother's table in Broadway Bound - was heartfelt and so very moving.

[quote]You know it's a slow news day when Linda Lavin takes over the DL....

Tomorrow: An all-day salute to Bonnie Franklin. Get ready to share your favorite "One Day at a Time" moments.

ONLY ASIAN ACTORS CAN PLAY ASIAN CHARACTERS AND THEY SHOULD ALSO PLAY WHITE CHARACTERS BECAUSE REPRESENTATION MATTERS.

[quote] Tomorrow: An all-day salute to Bonnie Franklin. Get ready to share your favorite "One Day at a Time" moments.

To start things off, we could discuss the infamous 1978 Tony Awards, which came from the inside of Bonnie Franklin's head. Don't believe me? ...

And to think I once actually liked Bonnie Franklin when I was a kid and saw her in Applause and Carousel.

Linda and Bonnie and Hal Linden and Skipper

All Broadway people who anchored long running sitcoms. What four Broadway actors of today would you put in a network tv variety special and get a similar level of enjoyment?

[quote]What four Broadway actors of today would you put in a network tv variety special and get a similar level of enjoyment?

Sadly, network TV variety specials have gone the way of vaudeville theaters and radio soap operas.

Okay, I make fun of Linda Lavin because she’s just soooo grating (in the most slothful way) on ALICE, and there are all those stories about her being an overly controlling terror on that set ... but I must admit I saw her as a replacement in “The Sisters Rosensweig” and she was very good. She got all her laughs, and gave quite an adept performance.

New York Times 09/24/93

Review/Theater; New Cast for 'Sisters Rosensweig'

[italic]There is a new cast of stars in "The Sisters Rosensweig," and, as is often the case with such changes, there are distinct gains and losses. The happiest result is that there now seems to be a genuine, visceral pull of consanguinity among the sisters, who are played by Michael Learned, Linda Lavin and Joanne Camp. There is even a slight physical resemblance.

The sheer comic brio of the earlier version may be somewhat diminished. But the sense of inextricable family ties and the impossiblity of escaping one's background -- which is, after all, what the play is mostly about -- reads much more clearly. And as a consequence, the comedy seems much more of a piece.

This can be attributed largely to Ms. Lavin, who received the unenviable assignment of re-creating the role for which Ms. Kahn won a Tony. As the suburban housewife turned radio psychologist, Ms. Kahn delivered a dazzlingly mannered performance of a brand-name-conscious Jewish matron. On its own over-the-top terms, it worked brilliantly, but Ms. Kahn seemed more directly linked to the audience than to anyone else on the stage.

In contrast, Ms. Lavin brings a lower-key, maternal quality to the role that produces a glow of unexpected warmth. While she gives a naturalistic, almost throwaway reading to Gorgeous's more outrageous pronouncements, she sacrifices none of the part's loopy humor. (The scene in which Gorgeous tries on her first real Chanel suit is still the evening's high point.) But she seems much more expressly motivated by feelings of sibling rivalry and affection, and the evening's dizzying seesaw of familial conflict and reconciliation simply makes sense in a way it didn't before.

r53

Creel is neither beautiful nor crazy talented.

He has a beautiful voice, he's sexy and he's kind.

[she’s just soooo grating (in the most slothful way)]

What does that mean?

Loved her in Gypsy.

Thanks, R40. I requested BANDSTAND on the previous thread.

I've gotten so spoiled by all this great content posted for free, but it's worth $7, especially to help out the Actors' Fund.

The Broadway League, a trade association representing producers and theater owners, said the 41 Broadway houses would remain shuttered at least through June 7. But industry leaders widely expect the theaters to remain closed longer — many say that a best-case scenario is reopening following the July 4 weekend, and that it is possible that the industry will not reopen until after Labor Day.

2020 Drama Desk Awards Remain on Schedule, Ceremony Moved Online:

Another huge Gavin Creel fan here. I've always thought he has one of the most beautiful and versatile voices in the business, plus lots of stage charisma. Looks-wise, though he may not be conventionally beautiful like a model or a movie star, I think he's very cute and sexy, and has a great, sweet personality.

I saw Pryce in the original London cast of “MissSaigon,” twice, and he was very good, though Lea Salonga was phenomenal. Pryce did wear prosthetic eye appliances.

But, there was another Anglo actor, also wearing eye prosthetics, who played Salonga’s Red boyfriend, whom she later shoots to protect her son. Curious, that no one ever made any fuss about his being cast.

Though I never saw the U.S. version, I understand there were a number of changes before the show crossed over. John, who sings “Bui Doi” at the top of Act II, was played by a white guy in London, but a black guy in New York. The whole scene when Kim meets Ellen elicited laughs when Ellen sang, “It’s Her or It’s Me.” And I heard that much of the anti-U.S. tone in Act I was edited for Broadway.

I liked the London “Miss Saigon” very much. I got tickets to see the London “Martin Guerre,” but ultimately canceled, because of work conflicts. I actually saw “The Pirate Queen,” which was a mess. I used to like Schonberg’s music, but his later projects, including ballets based on “Wuthering Heights” and “Cleopatra,” but they’re pretty unmemorable.

Oh well...

Broadway officially shut down until June 7th. No brainer. I think it shuts down until September.

[quote]I saw Pryce in the original London cast of “MissSaigon,” twice, and he was very good, though Lea Salonga was phenomenal. Pryce did wear prosthetic eye appliances. But, there was another Anglo actor, also wearing eye prosthetics, who played Salonga’s Red boyfriend, whom she later shoots to protect her son. Curious, that no one ever made any fuss about his being cast.

I could be wrong, but my memory is that no big deal was made about Pryce not being Asian, or part Asian, until the show came to Broadway. And as for the role of Thuy, which you also mentioned, on Broadway that part was played by a guy who appears to have been part Asian or maybe Filipino, like Salonga. I just looked him up: His name was Barry K. Bernal, and he died of AIDS in 1994 at age 31. So sad.

Gavin Creel couldn’t be more mediocre. He’s dull, voiceless, can’t really dance, can’t really act, can’t really sing, and he’s not attractive.

A sextuple threat.

R79, you're really a sad person. Not sure why you feel threatened by Gavin Creel. Maybe's he's beaten you out for a role a few times? Wouldn't be surprised. I find his voice one of the most beautiful in recent years and he's enormously attractive in a boy-next-door sort of way. I met him once backstage at Dolly and found him incredibly engaging and sexy. He's a great conversationalist and a lot of fun. I wanted to f*ck him right then and there!!

Gavin Creel was at his sexiest when he played the cad Steven Kodaly in She Loves Me. He even sported a mustache to fit his character.

[quote] [R79], you're really a sad person. Not sure why you feel threatened by Gavin Creel. Maybe's he's beaten you out for a role a few times? Wouldn't be surprised. I find his voice one of the most beautiful in recent years and he's enormously attractive in a boy-next-door sort of way. I met him once backstage at Dolly and found him incredibly engaging and sexy. He's a great conversationalist and a lot of fun. I wanted to f*ck him right then and there!!

So what you're saying is that if someone doesn't care for him, it must be a personal thing like being threatened by Creel's talent or having been beaten out for a role. It couldn't possibly just be opinion. Whereas your opinion should be taken as law because your taste is being driven by your cock. Got it.

R56 Do you mean this Andrea Martin? (or is it really Linda)

Gavin Creel was quite good in "Hello, Dolly!" and "Thoroughly Modern Millie" as a juvenile, but very miscast as Kodaly in "She Loves Me", even though he sang it nicely.

Gavin Creel is quite good. He sings well, can dance, and has charisma. Is the best? Probably not. But he is not worth anyone's derision or insults. He is consistently good.

A British TV channel made a documentary about the making of Miss Saigon if anyone's interested. It's a fairly interesting watch just to see how a show is put together

The best part of that Saigon documentary is Nicholas Hytner yelling at the composer and the film crew.

Ruthie Henshall getting run down by a piece of set must come a close second. Though, you only hear it. And the typical British reaction (get the bottle of Lucozade!)

Agreed, R85, on Gavin Creel in She Loves Me. The best performance I've seen him give was Elder Price in Book of Mormon. He was fantastic. (I also wouldn't kick him out of bed. I'm sure he's delighted to know that.)

In other news, the National Theatre Live's Jane Eyre starts free streaming tomorrow (Thurs.) on the NTL YouTube channel.

[quote]So what you're saying is that if someone doesn't care for him, it must be a personal thing like being threatened by Creel's talent or having been beaten out for a role. It couldn't possibly just be opinion. Whereas your opinion should be taken as law because your taste is being driven by your cock. Got it.

Sweetie stating ...

[quote]Gavin Creel couldn’t be more mediocre. He’s dull, voiceless, can’t really dance, can’t really act, can’t really sing, and he’s not attractive.

Sounds waaaaay more personal than just not caring for someone.

Not really, R91 sweetie. You're taking it way more personally than a stranger should.

Love Linda Lavin. I saw for the first time over 50 years ago as Louise in a summer stock production of Gypsy. Margaret Whiting was Rose. Linda had a solid career on Broadway, although she is better known for the sitcom Alice. She started a charity to introduce at-risk kids to theater and most recently has been doing concerts on YouTube with Billy Stritch to get us through the pandemic. We can all be snarky but, for my nickel, be snarky about personalities who do nothing to improve the world around them.

I liked Creel in Hello, Dolly! The guy can sing. But he’s got an utterly forgettable face.

But a totally memorable dick.

Have Gavin's nudes leaked?

This thread is all Gavin & Lavin!!

King Lear with Derek Jacobi.

Sondheim - The South bank Show.

Tosca - 1985.

[quote]The best part of that Saigon documentary is Nicholas Hytner yelling at the composer and the film crew.

Ha! I remember that, even though I haven't seen that doc since it originally aired. Will have to try to look at it again.

R100, that TOSCA is great. Beautiful performance of the Met's Zeffirelli production, with Behrens and Domingo. Thanks for posting.

Lol at R91. I couldn’t give a fuck less about Gavin Creel. He sucks. Really, grow up you stage door kaween.

and I hate to tell you, R91, but the two posts you quoted are by two different people.

Gavin Creel is incredibly talented.

Therefore I am surprised more was not made of his positive diagnosis, considering some people still think those in their twenties cannot get sick.

Gavin is now in his 40s, dear.

^^ Gavin is 43.

Whoa - I thought you bitches were joking - Gavin Creel turns 44 on April 18!!!!!

I thought he was 28!

R104 = Gavin Creel

Sweetheart, Gavin has been around for 20 years. He was in the original company of Thoroughly Modern Millie in 2002. Did you think he was playing her son?

Lol I'm r104 and not Gavin Creel. You have to admit he exudes youth and energy and looks fantastic though.

R104 = Gavin Creel's agent

I think Gavin Creel is adorable.

[quote] This thread is all Gavin & Lavin!!

I smell a thread title brewing.

Is it true Coronavirus was started by Linda Lavin biting the head off her assistant?

Gavin can be good and sound great. Kodaly was not his rule. That rakishness name across as anything more than adolescent dress-up. Pretend sexiness is not sexy.

not his role, not his rule

Several years ago, I was staying in London in a hotel adjacent to the Prince of Wales Theatre, where Gavin was appearing in BOOK OF MORMON. Practically every night, I'd pass by the stage door on my way back to my room and Gavin would invariably be hanging out with his dog Wally, joking & chatting with people. This would be well after the show was done for the night, so it wasn't the usual "stage door" stuff. He just seemed to really like casually hanging around and meeting people. I confess I stopped & chatted with him on several occasions -- and pretty much fell in love with him forever. (He was also [italic]fantastic[/italic] as Elder Price.)

Did you do him, r117?

And then he went to XXL. Seems he likes bears.

I like the bit in the Saigon documentary where Hytner crooks his finger at the lazy ass chorus boy who thought he’d get to sit out that particular scene.

[quote]Gavin would invariably be hanging out with his dog Wally,

A dog? I didn't think people could easily bring dogs into the UK without a lengthy quarantine to protect against rabies.

Haven't those animal restrictions been eased?

You got your Linda Lavin. You got your Bonnie Franklin. You also got your...Marcia Rodd

[quote] A dog? I didn't think people could easily bring dogs into the UK without a lengthy quarantine to protect against rabies.

Gavin was working for Scott Rudin, who's already rabid so it was exempted.

[quote]You also got your...Marcia Rodd

We didn't have her for long.

It's not terribly difficult to take a pet to the UK. With microchipping, proper shots and documentation done in advance of travel, there is no quarantine involved.

And we didn't have her as Mabel, r125...

Prediction: Broadway in January.

Prediction: April in Paris

I met Gavin's dog once. Really cute and sweet , as is he.

Creel was a big pain in the ass when he lived in my apartment building on W. 47th St. No consideration at all for fellow residents. Blasted music all the time and that fucking dog would shit in the hallways.

Sweeny Todd - George and Patti.

She's The Best Thing In It - Mary Louise Wilson.

Death of A Salesman - Brian Dennehy.

DOAS - Act Two.

DOAS - Act Three.

God, I hated Dennehy. One note blowhard actor.

R131, Show tunes?

Can someone tell me approximately when in the video Hytner lambastes the MISS SAIGON composer? I can't bear to watch the rest of the dreck for that single instant of deliciousness!

It is not worth fast forwarding to, R139. It is brief, and not illuminating. If I thought watching Miss Saigon was like watching paint dry, that documentary was like watching a video of paint drying. It was pointless, badly edited, and completely unilluminating. It put nothing in context, and did not show any moments of creative brilliance.

Lots of theater people hating on this article. An ounce of truth, maybe?

Ninety percent of that Saigon doc is about the casting of Kim. They clearly blew their budget flying all around the world filming singers of limited talent butchering the same damn songs over and over and over. Though it does underscore just how good Salonga was.

To suggest Gavin Creel can't sing is silly. Ditto that he has a forgettale face. How many people do you know who look like a muppet?

*forgettable

You know what this thread needs?

While Creel is very competent at what he does, I find him sort of boring. I know I've seen him in many shows, but I forget which ones exactly.

That's the problem; he's easily forgettable.

His scent doesn't linger in your memory?

[quote]It was pointless, badly edited, and completely unilluminating. It put nothing in context, and did not show any moments of creative brilliance.

There's a reason for that. It's about MISS SAIGON....

Thanks to whoever posted the DEATH OF A SALESMAN video. When I saw that production on stage, I loved Dennehy and Franz and the whole rest of the cast. Kevin Anderson played Biff on Broadway, when and where did Ron Eldard do it? Where was this taped?

(R131).You lived in the same apartment building as Gavin Creel and you never invited him over for dinner? Cocktail? Sleepover?

[quote]you never invited him over for dinner? Cocktail? Sleepover?

Gavin Creel is like Dorothy Gale. He takes that damn dog with him wherever he goes. Do you want Michael Riedel speculating that you're the one that rolled over on Gav's dog in the night and killed it?

How does he let his dog shit indoors? In public spaces in the building? Nasty!

Ron Eldard took over for Kevin Anderson on Bway and was in the cast when they filmed it.

Gavin Creel's New York apt is all white - walls, furniture, appliances, carpet.

Man, I hope Gavin's dog is, too.

A dog owner with a white carpet?

Look, I totally HATE Bonnie Franklin, Linda Lavin and, for that matter, Hal Linden. Their "acting" is...very weird, and to me, they are always saying "Look at ME!"

Well, Bonnie played a nun who had some bullshit business with Victor Newman on Y and R and was pretty good. Too bad she died soon after.

Now, Linda...She was AMAZING in GYPSY on Broadway. She was also great to the cast. A friend was in the show and when he left she gave him some item that she used on stage...I think it was a pocket watch. (My freind was adorable and had a dick that hit JUST the right spot. ) Anyway, I know I saw her in most the shows that she has done since...and she has always been the best part of the show.

Maybe her "acting style" does not translate to TV?

She had a show that lasted a decade. She's continued to work on TV as a guest star and a regular.

I appreciate the essay about live theatre but again, why must everything be simplistically black and white? Of course the impulse for live theatre will never die. Just because we're digital streaming during this crisis doesn't denigrate the form or threaten its future. Personally, I am as grateful for the technology that enables me to see, say, David Tennant tackle Richard II from the RSC as I am to live in NYC and see Midler live as Dolly Levi.

It puts me in mind of Gary Merrill's speech in ALL ABOUT EVE: "The theatre. The theatre. What book of rules say the theatre exists only within some ugly buildings crowded into one square mile of New York City? Or London? Paris or Vienna? Listen, Junior, and learn. Do you wanna know what the theatre is? A flea circus. Also opera. Also rodeos, carnivals, ballets, Indian tribal dances, Punch and Judy, a one-man band, all theatre. Wherever there's magic and make-believe and an audience, there's theatre. Donald Duck, Ibsen and The Lone Ranger. Sarah Bernhardt and Poodles Hanneford. Lunt and Fontanne, Betty Grable. Rex the Wild Horse, Eleonora Duse, all theatre. You don't understand them all. You don't like them all. Why should you? The theatre's for everybody, you included, but not exclusively. So, don't approve or disapprove. It may not be your theatre, but it's theatre for somebody, somewhere."

Feinstein's/54 Below streaming includes a Kyle Dean Massey show on April 21.

[quote]Man, I hope Gavin's dog is, too.

Wouldn't that make the dog hard to find?

Does the wonderful NT poster have a link to Present Laughter? Thank you for posting what you have been posting. They are a wonderful diversion, and I'm delighted to see them, since most of the NT broadcasts do not play in my town.

I want to see Linda Lavin as Linda Loman--

Attention must be paid to ... ME!

I want to see her as Linda Low!

I want to see her as Lynda Carter.

R160 He keeps it in a white box

In the heat that filled the air, part of him still lingered there. I know what pain her life today must be. But if all comes down to her or me, I don't care. I swear, I'll fight!

Lavin was quite strange in the D.C. Follies. She wasn't a bad singer, but she made the song a solo instead of the trio at the end and seemed styled too young with heels and an attractive hairstyle. She looked more like a contemporary of Carlotta than a dowdy, elderly Hattie.

Is it essential that Hattie be dowdy?

Drop it. I don't do dowdy.

Oh yes, I agree with r161. I would love to see Andrew Scott in Present Laughter.

I want to see her as Linda di Chamounix

I want to see her in Snitch! -- the musical based on the late Linda Tripp's life

It certainly adds to the comedy if some little old lady in orthopedic shoes steps out and sings "I'm just a broadway baby."

[quote]I don't do dowdy.

Do you do doody?

I guess Sheree North just didn't sing at all, at least then. They pretty much hide that in that dance number from Lend an Ear.

She only does the intro to "The Sound of Money" in Wholesale, and sounds okay there. But the "duet" with Harold Lang listed must have been a dance number, because she doesn't sing (or say) anything.

And in "How to Be Very Very Popular," she could easily have been dubbed.

She was a terrific actress, though, and dancer.

Everyone's a bloody critic when it comes to theatre. Tiresome. R150 I aleays have a soft spot for blokes taking cute dogs everywhere. It makes them only more attractive in my estimation; proves they're loyal and capable of a commitment.

Indeed she was, r175....

Perhaps Ab Fab based Miranda Richardson's minimalist apartment on Gavin Creel's digs

R159, is the April 21st show a repeat or a new show? Kyle Dean Massey was really good in the performance already shown. I wasn't crazy about some of the song choices but he sang really well and was interesting and charming. Very impressive. Good-looking too.

Sorry boys, no Present Laughter at this stage...was not captured.

[quote]Is it essential that Hattie be dowdy?

Back in the 1970s, there were what was thought of as "old lady clothes." My grandmother wore them all the time. They were really kind of a hold over from the 1960s. They were very functional clothes, but really wouldn't be considered dowdy at the time. Just "old lady clothes." The original cast got the look right with Ethel Shutta. Younger women in the early 1970s would look at these women and not think dowdy, but just "old lady" or "Mamie Eisenhower."

R181, that has a slight resemblance to St. Johns of today.

Linda Lavin made two or three appearances in the first season of Barney Miller as a lady cop. I think they were testing the waters at that time to see if a lady cop would work in the mix, but it worked better with an all male environment.

Sheree North was a mystery guest on "What's My Line" back in the day, and they questioned her if she was a singer, and she said "no". After she had been revealed as guest and they talked with her, she again said that she wasn't a singer, but an actress and a dancer.

R183, June Gable, fresh from Candide and the Ritz also was on Barney Miller

I thought Barnes went a bit too dowdy with Houdyshell, r181.

[quote]I want to see her as Lynda Carter.

Doing her fabulous Wonder Woman spins?

Whatever happened to June Gable? She seemed to work a lot in the 70s, and then disappeared.

[quote]I thought Barnes went a bit too dowdy with Houdyshell

Well, given what he had to work with ...

I think June Gable was blacklisted by Johnny Carson, and people in the California district of show business didn't want to cross him.

She should have ben able to get stage work, though. Carson had no power on Broadway, surely.

Here's her Wiki page...

I always thought June Gable was Latina. She was born June Golub!

Nice to see that she had a ten year run on "Friends."

[quote]I thought Barnes went a bit too dowdy with Houdyshell, [R181].

I agree. IMO, Houdyshell was miscast. I get that they were trying to include a Fanny Brice type, but she wasn't right. I think her costume was just a budget "slap it together" number because we need the money for the ghost costumes. Her costume doesn't tell you much about the character.

June Gable never did the Tonight Show but she was a favorite of Merv. She was on the retooled Laugh In and Robin Williams was a big fan.

Well it's basically along the same lines as Shutta's, r193, without any old lady elegance.

Remember when people were freaking out about Bernadette's red dress in the D.C. Follies because they thought it was too sexy for Sally and red was supposed to be Phyllis' color? Ah, life pre-COVID.

At least the costumes were better in that Follies than the NT production. The costumes, Imelda, and Loveland were the only weak spots in that production however. Out of all the productions I've seen of that show, that one came the closest to actually working in spite of any book issues.

Philip Quast made little impression on me. I thought Imelda was fine apart from "Losing My Mind." I suspect it was felt that number needed to be more of a star turn for fear that "Phyllis" would steal the show, as is customary.

I can't remember if the line about seeing a young Hattie in a dress "cut down to there" was in the last Broadway revival but it's laughable when said to an actor like Houdyshell. They could get away with it with, say, Better Midler, but not Houdyshell.

*Bette

I always thought Bette was more of a Stella.

June Gable most certainly did The Tonight Show, on October 7, 1976. It's listed on Wikipedia's page of Tonight Show episodes.

That is when she ran afoul of Johnny Carson, for skipping the script that was written for her and just going off on her own. He could be extremely vindictive.

Ethel was 74 in 1971....same age as Bette is now. Just checked the TV Guide. Caged is on. No...thank...you!

Present Laughter was definitely taped, R180. It is listed on the NT site as "playing in cinemas..." Here is hoping that someone has a copy of it. And, again, speaking for many of us, I can not thank you enough for posting the wonderful links you have already posted. Lehmann Trilogy was unbelievably amazing, especially. Just brilliant.

R202, Gable appeared on the NBC reboot of Laugh in which debuted in 1977. If Carson wanted her blacklisted, how did she get a featured part on what NBC felt would be a huge hit a year after she allegedly did so poorly on his show? If anything, Carson probably thought she was good so he recommended her for the show.

I heard Gable herself discussing the Carson blacklisting, but I don't remember where now, and googling is no help. But it was in public, almost certainly on TV and probably after Carson's death.

She was on his show only that one time. If he thought her so good, why didn't he invite her back, as he invariably did with talent he liked.

R206, if Carson had her blacklisted, what was she doing on his network in a big primetime show less than a year later? He might not have had power elsewhere, but he certainly had it on NBC and she still got a big show there that led to a lot of other opportunities.

June on the cover of After Dark:

"Lehmann Trilogy was unbelievably amazing, especially. Just brilliant."

And a half-hour too long. And the Story Theatre-narration wore out its welcome before then.

Carson had power, but not absolute power, not even on NBC. And there were many producers in the business who hated him and were glad of a chance to poke him in the eye. Plus Gable was too gifted for everyone in L. A. to ban her just because of Carson. He tried to blacklist Streisand, too, when she skipped a scheduled appearance on his show, but it didn't take, did it?

And that cover of After Dark reminded me--that's where June Gable recounts the Carson episode. Not in that issue per se, but in an interview piece in that magazine. She's quite blunt about him and what he did to her, and he may well have been still living when it appeared.

But you go right on sticking to your idiot story, jackass. I'm done with this.

R210, glad you're done with this because you're the one who claimed Carson blacklisted her. Check her credits and she had a lot of credits after her appearance. Carson might not have been able to hurt her career overall, but he certainly could have prevented her being on NBC, which he obviously didn't. She was a favorite on Merv as well and Carson's brother directed the show so he didn't say much there, either.

But of course, the AD article is where she discussed this in depth and the interview conveniently doesn't exist on the internet. How special.

I've seen it mentioned elsewhere that Barney Miller wanted to make Linda Lavin a regular but they waited too long to make her an offer and she got the "Alice" gig in the mean time.

[quote] She's quite blunt about him and what he did to her, and he may well have been still living when it appeared.

Considering Carson outlived the magazine by about 23 years, it would seem so.

And she still can’t sing the fuckin’ SONG!

I'll be the odd man out and say that I loved Gavin and his sleazy pornstache as Kodály.

As for Lavin and Follies, she sang the solo version because couldn't handle the trio. She kept getting lost. Sondheim and others just weren't having it and it's one of the reasons she was replaced for New York.

[quote]At least the costumes were better in that Follies than the NT production. The costumes, Imelda, and Loveland were the only weak spots in that production however. Out of all the productions I've seen of that show, that one came the closest to actually working in spite of any book issues.

The NT production was the first to go back to Goldman's original book (with just a few minor changes).

Was Linda Lavin ever an After Dark cover girl?

For some reason, her old headshot looks like Adrienne Barbeau

Try these on for size, Lavin.

[quote] suspect it was felt that number needed to be more of a star turn for fear that "Phyllis" would steal the show, as is customary

It would have been more of a star turn if they had done it the way it’s written to be done. They made it straight from Sally’s own life with that setting and costume. The lyric already tells us that. Dorothy Collins made more of a star turn out of it with a stunning gown and very simple staging that Imelda was allowed to do with that awful staging.

R213: Shove it up your ass, shithead.

[quote] [R213]: Shove it up your ass, shithead.

Don't get pissy because you can't be bothered to look something up and someone actually answered your question.

Lavin didn't do Follies in New York because she did The Lyons instead.

R158, of course that speech was written by a man who had never in his life worked in a theater.

Hattie cannot be elegant because she has no money. One of the big concerns in the original (and any good subsequent) costume design is to tell the story of where these womens lives went.

In the original production, Hattie's outfit had some subtle stains and fraying to give the impression that the suit was old--and perhaps unworn for a decade.

R220, uh, no.

Sally is in a platinum blonde wig and at a glamorized vanity table. Loveland in the NT production--like in nearly all--is a sort of show-biz gloss on the characters real life situations.

So while the lyrics of Losing My Mind may seem to come from Sally's life the setting, hair and costumes in the original and the NT production, do not.

The setting hair costume in the original were in front of a curtain. Dorothy was wearing an evening gown. It was very glamorous, unlike the look Sally had pre-Loveland.

Every major production has done a variation of this, except for the NT production, which wrongly put Sally at a dressing table wearing a robe. It was not glamorous, and it was wrong. She would not have worn such an outfit in a real Follies number.

It was the second biggest failure of the NT production (after the awful costumes) - this mis-direction of "Losing My Mind" and Imelda's awful performance of it.

Oh , thank God we're returning to Follies. Things must be returning to normal.

Better FOLLIES than creeping-obsessing over Gavin Creel.

(Get better soon, Gavin.)

I think the idea in NT's production was to show each character as what their fantasy of themselves were and that the distance between who they really were and how they saw themselves would be poignant.

The problem is that three of the four actors were actually pretty close to the fantasy and had to dim their glamor to play the everyday self.

Only Staunton was closer to the reality of her character than the fantasy.

I'm sure I'll get blowback for this, but I really like the book to FOLLIES. I do wish producers and directors would stop hacking it to bits. It's a coral reef of observations and reveals that slowly builds up over the evening. Things that don't seem to move the plot (what plot?) always get cut for time and it minimizes the impact of the characters' collapses in the end.

If you want proof of how good the original book is, see the Cameron Mackintosh revival which had an almost entirely new, more traditional book. It should have worked. It didn't. The show just sat there.

It needs to be what it is.

Dear NT savior, is there any way for me to make a copy of the MET broadcasts or any non-YouTube performance?

You are exactly right, R231. The book is just fine. Actors know just what to do with every word of it. There are no problems there. None at all.

What is nearly impossible for any subsequent production to address is the unavailability of Michael Bennett. Staging the book requires someone who is genius with movement. All the seemingly disparate bits and pieces of the book cascade onto the stage and it's in that cascade that it all comes together and becomes devastating. Or not, if you don't have someone with a genius for stage movement equal to Michael Bennett. And that's hard to come by.

The original book had the great advantage of being played on Boris Aronson's set. He NEVER gets enough credit for his role in creating Hal Prince's greatest productions. He gave Bennett a set he could use and then Bennett used it to its best advantage.

The book is fine.

I'm happy to give Aronson credit, especially for COMPANY. No revival I've seen captures the brilliance of the original, particularly without his set. It was like a character all its own.

I still remember being underwhelmed and at times, stupefied by the John Doyle revival of COMPANY, with its ugly dark set. My friend loved it, though, and thought it was incredibly elegant. He then explained the concept: "it's all set inside Bobby's brain."

Dear god.

R181, Shutta's costume was not just 'old lady clothes.' That suit is the suit of a PROPER old lady. Right down to the corsage. It looks like she probably bought it to wear to the wedding of one of her grandchildren. It is scrupulously above reproach.

That's a huge change from the young flapper she would have been during her time in the Follies back in 1923 and can't afford to be now. But, shhhh! Don't tell! That's what life left for her. Nothing but respectability. Not just an old lady, but a proper one. A great fall for any actress. But one grows older and learns to settle for the minimum.

I don't agree that there's nothing wrong with the book of FOLLIES. I first heard the score and then I heard the audience recording of the OBC. I was a little let down that such a great score surrounded such prosaic domestic unhappiness. That said, it wasn't long before the audience recording worked its magic. However, it remains a tricky proposition. In a way, Dorothy Collins and the book have something in common - neither were entirely appreciated initially. The story goes is that Alexis Smith and Collins both attended a 1980s production of FOLLIES (one of the Juliet Prowse productions, I suspect). In the ladies room later, Smith told Collins that it wasn't until seeing the FOLLIES they'd just watched that she truly appreciated Collins in the role of Sally.

Anybody have any information on Barbara Barrie? I used to see her around the Upper West Side from time to time, but, of course, the sidewalks are empty now. Seeing her out and about made me smile and I always think of her around Passover as her seders were rumored to have been quite marvelous. I hope she's doing well.

She turns 89 next month. Her husband, Jay Harnick died in 2007, but her brother-in-law Sheldon Harnick turns 96 on April 30, if the virus doesn't get him first.

Barbare Barrie did an episode of Gilbert Gottfried's podcast. It may be a couple of years ago now.

"In the original production, Hattie's outfit had some subtle stains and fraying to give the impression that the suit was old--and perhaps unworn for a decade."

Yes, r225, but when it was new (when Hattie originally got it), it still would have been considered nice quality. Look at the fabric. Jayne's was totally missing that element.

That gown was originally designed for Alexis, r227....

^and that was when Phyllis had Losing My Mind. Dorothy got it when they figured out Alexis couldn't handle it vocally.

And again, the NT seems to be paying homage to the original's original concept of having Sally as Harlow and Phyllis as Rita. The original dumped the concept early on, so I don't know why the NT went with it.

I like Blossom Dearie... sometimes. This is not one of those times.

According to Ted Chapin's book, it was Alexis herself who first suggested that Losing My Mind was much better suited for Dorothy than her.

And Lavin was free to accept The Lyons because she knew she was leaving Follies.

According to Ted Chapin's book, it was Alexis herself who first suggested that Losing My Mind was much better suited for Dorothy than her.

And Lavin was free to accept The Lyons because she knew she was leaving Follies.

I don't buy that Lavin was dumped from FOLLIES. That production needed all the star power it could get. I believe she may have flubbed the trio ending to ensure that she got a so-lo.

I'm watching a 20 year old Law & Order rerun and the doorman just said to the detectives about the new pretty tenant "She's going to be the next Betty Buckley.!

I'm watching a 20 year old Law & Order rerun and the doorman just said to the detectives about the new pretty tenant "She's going to be the next Betty Buckley.!

[quote]"She's going to be the next Betty Buckley.!

She should live so long.

Was that a sarcastic line? Betty was not the toast of Broadway in the 1990s/2000s.

No, he wasn't being sarcastic and he was the doorman. That's what made it funny.

No, he wasn't being sarcastic and he was the doorman. That's what made it funny.

The doorman was a showmo.

That's well put, R236.

The book to Follies is definitely a strange one and needs a brilliant staging to be pulled off correctly, so I suppose you could say that's its biggest flaw. However, a lot of the characters are pretty well drawn except for Ben. Ben never made a lot of sense to me until I saw a regional production where the actor decided to play him as a self-loathing alcoholic and, suddenly, everything he did and said made a thousand times more sense. I never really bought his sudden re-living of his glory days with Sally until that performance.

Honestly, really playing up the fact that everyone's been drinking could only help a show like Follies. You have your sad drunks - Sally/Buddy, witty drunks - Phyllis, Carlotta, Stella, Hattie, and angry, bitter drunks - Ben (and maybe a little Buddy).

I don't think the script gets credit for how witheringly funny it can be at times, too. If you have actors who know how to play the comedy instead of just the tragedy, it can be a very enjoyable evening.

After seeing the Madrid production - I don't speak Spanish - I think Ben is best cast with an actor who has effortless charisma. I think Bobby in COMPANY is similar in that respect. That said, I don't necessarily think of charisma when I think of John McMartin, though he certainly had presence and a clear "inner life." I'm reminded of numerous people's coments about meeting Bill Clinton - he has a presence that draws you in, irrespective of age, looks etc.

Ben does need to be carefully cast. I think the dialogue does a lot of the heavier lifting for many of the other characters. You usually have to work pretty hard or be totally talentless/miscast to not make some of those zingers land, but Ben isn't very funny and he wallows in self-pity from almost his first entrance. It's hard to make him very likable or appealing unless you cast someone with tons of charm or charisma.

[Quote] You usually have to work pretty hard or be totally talentless/miscast to not make some of those zingers land

Reporting for duty!

Oh, Betty. Why must you make everything so serious?

Is there any role that is not best cast with an actor who has effortless charisma?

Ummmm....can I say that I find Danny Burstein attractive? If he wasn't married....and if he was gay....and if I ever had a moment to meet him....

Buddy is easy. There are millions of salesmen in the U.S. And there are hundreds of Buddys passing each month through the Equity lounge.

Ben has to be someone with the stature and charisma that he could be an important player in American civic life. He must be someone who could be a commanding leader in business and in politics. He has to be someone who convinces us that Sally could carry a torch for him for 25 years, destroying her family in the process. And, btw, he must have excellent musical chops, too. Good luck find many of those from whom to choose.

Danny Burstein is VERY hot.

Another hot stealth Latino.

[Quote] Is there any role that is not best cast with an actor who has effortless charisma?

It's tricky to pin down but while presence and charisma aren't mutually exclusive, I associate certain qualities with the latter that mayn't be present with the former. I associate charisma with charm, fizz, intoxication, "relax, you're in good hands here." It doesn't have to be showy, but one's guard comes down because of its presence. Whereas someone can grab your attention and hold it but they don't necessarily put you at ease or make you think that they could get anyone to do damn near anything they wish. I would never have cast Anthony Perkins as Ben, for instance.

[Quote] Danny Burstein is VERY hot.

Cold compress, STAT!

Buddy is only "easy" because of who has followed Nelson - mostly non-dancers, schlubby types. I'm reminded of the casting in the SABRINA remake versus the original. Harrison Ford/Greg Kinnear is an entirely different dynamic to Humphrey Bogart/William Holden. The remake casting has virtually no stakes. I feel similarly about most Ben/Buddy castings.

Richard II.

[quote] The original book had the great advantage of being played on Boris Aronson's set. He NEVER gets enough credit for his role in creating Hal Prince's greatest productions.

following up on what r233 said, I don't think today's designer get called out enough for crappy or at best lazily shallow work. Designs today seem to be functional and sometimes attractive but rarely really bring an underlying concept to life. Probably unfair to cite a bar as high as Aronson's but the steel elevators of Company or circular themes of Fiddler - I'm not old enough to have seen them but they sound like real genius.

Passion.

Broadway - The History Documentary.

I wonder more why musical revivals never try to recreate legendary original sets, the way the Mike Nichols production of Death of a Salesman did. I would love to see a Company or Follies or Night Music that recreated the original sets. Costumes too!

R232 Do you need instructions in how to download them? Or where to find them to download?

JCS going on youtube. I’ve seen it before. Mel C from Spice Girls playing Mary so I don’t watch it. Agnetha Fältskog from Abba made her stage debut playing Mary in Sweden in 1972 when she was 22 years old. Beautiful clear voice.

[R273] both. I can download easily when it is on Youtube but when they are being streamed.....I would like to learn how it is done.

They aren't always streamed. Cinemas are sent a file and they play it, like a movie file on a laptop, except it is played for the audience on a movie screen.

R275 The Reddit opera subs post everything, and easily downloadable files from Mega or Google Drive.

A wealth of productions at the moment with all the Met streams.

Miss Lena Horne...

Give him a few years and I think Chris Pine might make a good Ben. He's the right type, is charismatic, handsome, can sing the role, and you could understand why Sally would - ahem- pine for him all these years.

Chris Pine doesn't need a few years. He could play Ben tomorrow.

I've seen clips of the Original London FOLLIES on YouTube but never the whole thing. Does anyone here have it?

Was the Amber Riley Dreamgirls done in London ever planned for Broadway?

Come to think of it, wasn't John McMartin a little young for Ben when he played it? Pine can pass for older. He'd be good for that movie version (if that's still happening).

No. They're planning a production around Cynthia Erivo.

McMartin was a replacement for Jon Cypher. He probably wore the moustache to look older.

Re the Betty Buckley line above, it was obvious the schlubby middle aged doorman was being sincere but the writers were being very sarcastic.

That Sarah Michelle Gellar / Betty Buckley story still makes me chuckle.

[quote] No, he wasn't being sarcastic and he was the doorman. That's what made it funny.

It would have been funnier if he'd been a stagehand.

Or one of her brother's ex boyfriends.

What happened to Jon Cypher? Was he still being penalized for making a couple of mistakes on the live broadcast of "Cinderella" back in the day?

Replacement or not, moustache or no, John McMartin was two and a half years older than Jon Cypher.

[quote] I really like the book to FOLLIES

I always judge a production of FOLLIES on whether or not Phyllis talks about coming home with her panties wringing wet. No wet panties = no good Follies

How about the recent Midsummer Nights Dream at the Bridge?

Really wonderful production and it was on NT Live. Very homoerotic.

[quote]That gown was originally designed for Alexis

So we've heard many times, including in Ted Chapin's book. One has to question why, though. The number that was originally there was "Uptown Downtown" - which was going to require movement, just as Lucy & Jessie does. Why would Flossie Klotz design a tight gown like that for the number that wouldn't have been conducive to any kind of movement? That gown is perfect for a torch song, which was never was Phyllis' moment was going to be.

[quote]What happened to Jon Cypher?

He was Peron in the LA Company of "Evita," but that was forty years ago.

He had long-running roles on "Hill Street Blues" and "Major Dad."

R294, I think the gown was designed for Alexis when she was going to sing Losing My Mind.

Going by this it looks like Broadway won’t re-open until the fall of 2021.

Sorry, link won’t post. It’s in the Sunday NY Times magazine this weekend about re-opening the economy.

I have a nearly complete collection of After Dark magazines, and I don't recall seeing Linda Lavin on any cover.

In fact, I can't recall any inside features on her, either.

Another reason why After Dark was a great magazine.

Cypher in 1970. He looked more mature than McMartin.

I have the NYCO 1998 Paul Bunyan DVD but I have no idea how to upload it.

We need some more Sheree North...

This thread has been an education on Sheree North. I knew she was considered (or promoted as) a threat to Monroe and that she became a character actress by the 1970s. I didn't know she was a dancer. That duet with d'Amboise is as erotic now as it probably was then. Was it from an 'A' picture?

Yes, R304, the DeSylva, Brown, and Henderson bio The Best Things In Life Are Free.

I think North played a romance with Gordon MacRae in it, besides the dancing.

Sheree North played Marilyn's mother in a TV movie about Monroe. (Catherine Hicks was Marilyn)

She died during cancer surgery in 2024.

I'll be sure to send flowers.

[quote]She died during cancer surgery in 2024.

Welcome to Datalounge, Carnac.

Isn't that Seinfeld's Uncle Leo next to Sheree at R306?

Is it pronounced Sherry or Sha-riiiiiiii?

Yes, R309. She had a late-life resurgence playing Kramer's mother Babs.

She seems a little scattered. What was the stripper's name? Sherry North?

The issue of Ben's casting does make me wonder how they'll actually cast this proposed Follies movie, especially since film is less forgiving than the stage. Will they give the lead roles to people who look like they're 1970's 50 year olds or give it to actors who are actually 50, but don't look anything like how people aged in the 70's?

Basically, will Sally be more Toni Collette or Meryl Streep?

All theater gossip threads lead to "Follies."

Meryl Streep is Hattie age. They should stick to that (and not cast Streep).

Amy Adams should be Sally.

You just know they're dying to get Streep in this somehow. Certainly, she can't be the only movie actress of a certain age who can sing passably enough. Someone throw Glenn Close a bone. Maybe one can be Hattie and the other can be Stella.

With our luck, Streep will be Sally, Phyllis, or Carlotta and ruin it.

John McMartin always got on my nerves. He was supremely unattractive and he always looked like such a beta. And he wasn't terribly talented. I prefer John Cullum.

The Star of EVITA here to sing... Stormy Weather.

Stephen Sondheim has said that Jack’s (John McMartin's) performance in Follies was one of the greatest stage performances of our time.

Hal Prince: Jack (John McMartin) made a sensational pal. A great actor—he was capable of a range of epic performances.

And to show you how tough acting is, after Follies, he was set to join Brady Bunch to replace Robert Reed but the show got cancelled.

McMartin is rather forgettable in the movie of "Sweet Charity."

I first remember Miss Loni from....

As a young actor in New York in 1981, I was feeling that I was really on my way when a show I was in closed and I had enough weeks for an unemployment claim. On the first day I could, I headed down to the Unemployment office on Sixth Avenue in Chelsea.

The line was massive. I looked up and the person ahead of me in line was John McMartin. It never occurred to me that someone as well as stablished is John McMartin would be collecting unemployment. It was a sobering lesson about show biz.

Follies is all about aging and regret...Phyllis and Sally are 50 and the men are a probably bit older...52 to 54ish. You can't really play it any other way and casting people in their late 30s/early 40s doesn't work. And, the actors need to be made up to appear the way 50something people looked in 1971. They can't be cute, youthful looking "modern" 50somethings how people look today.

I actually (mostly) like the costumes in the National's "Follies even Phyllis and Sally's notoriously despised blue-ish/grey outfits...though I would agree they don't photograph well (but they were designed for the theater, not film/video).

I'm available for Young Phyllis.

John McMartin was 41/42. The leads should be in their 40s. Early 50s is acceptable. Any older and it impacts on the older characters. Think Mary McCarty in the original, with her sack of flour body and sad little dress. The four leads have much of their life left, not ten or fifteen years.

[quote]McMartin is rather forgettable in the movie of "Sweet Charity."

Oscar is sort of a forgettable character.

R277, is there a way to get the subtitles as well?

R327 Math is apparently not your strong suit. Follies centers on a reunion (in 1971) of performers from Weismann's Follies which ran between WWI and WWII. Phyllis and Sally were in the last Follies circa 1940 when they were about 20...the reunion is 30 years later thus they are 49 to 51 or so. It's rather important to the plot of the show.

49 is forties, 51 is early fifties. My comment reflects that. And if 41 year old John McMartin could play it then, a 41 year old can play it now. Alexis Smith looked great back then. That's an important aspect - the leads should still be able to kick up their heels. They should not be considering hip/knee replacements.

R329 Should come with them. All the recent Met ones have..

Or grab the score and sing along.

I always thought Michelle Pfeiffer would be a terrific Phyllis. I fear she might be too old now. She looks wonderful, but still might be too old. They'll probably offer it to Nicole Kidman anyway.

R322, you get them on the Met webplayer. But that youtube of Aida doesn't have them, that's why I asked. They also don't work if you cast the Met player from a Chrome tab to the tv .

Our modern expectations re: the physical appearance of people over 40 has totally fucked with Follies.

Looking at photos from the original show today, the main female characters seem to be in their 60s.

Alexis Smith was 50 when Follies opened. Yvonne DeCarlo was 48 and Dorothy Collins was 45.

"John McMartin always got on my nerves. He was supremely unattractive and he always looked like such a beta. And he wasn't terribly talented"

Oh, that is such nonsense.

Sheree North also appeared on an episode of DL favorite, FAMILY, with Sada and James.

I saw the original Company(in its first year,) Fiddler(in its sixth year) and Follies(in its first week) all within 5 months. Midtown was the center of the universe. You have no idea.

The problem for me with Sweeney and Merrily was that Aronson was not there to help Prince get a visual hold on such ambitious works.

Even if you could recreate the original sets and costumes for those classic Aronson, Zipprodt/Klotz productions(Florence said towards the end of her life she couldn't recreate her Follies costumes even if she wanted to because many of the fabrics she used were no longer being made) you wouldn't have the Robbins/Bennett/Prince electricity. The shows would just lie there. The Tune staging of the original Nine was the last musical production I was bowled over by and I was still very young. Eventually you just stop going. Rich was right. Broadway never recovered from AIDS. Something broke which was impossible to fix. There is a very different musical theater now which I don't enjoy and don't bother with but others do. I'm an old person now who can say 'Broadway? You can have it.'

I have to ask again, did anyone see The Cockettes?

She’d be Carlotta.

Yeah, Queen Carlotta

[quote]I agree. IMO, Houdyshell was miscast. I get that they were trying to include a Fanny Brice type, but she wasn't right.

What the hell are you talking about. Houdyshell isn't remotely a "Fanny Brice type," and she was very well cast as Hattie in Follies, a role that does not call for a "Fanny Brice type."

[quote]I can't remember if the line about seeing a young Hattie in a dress "cut down to there" was in the last Broadway revival but it's laughable when said to an actor like Houdyshell.

Well, I believe part of the joke and the irony of the song is that Hattie is supposed to be a very old woman, so she could have been sexy with great tits 60 years prior even if she's not at all sexy now. I believe Ethel Shutta was always more of a comic character woman than a sexpot.

[quote]If you want proof of how good the original book is, see the Cameron Mackintosh revival which had an almost entirely new, more traditional book.

The problem with the original book isn't the structure of it, which I think is very strong. It's that so many of the lines are very obvious, melodramatic, purple, or self-consciously bitchy. If you cut out the worst examples of that, like they did in some productions including the Paper Mill one, I think it improves the show greatly.

As for "Losing My Mind" in the NT production, I think having Sally would be in interesting and valid interpretation EXCEPT that all of the numbers in the Loveland sequence are supposed to be mock Follies numbers, and I don't think an actual Follies number would be staged that way. Though I could be wrong about that.

[quote]And that was when Phyllis had Losing My Mind. Dorothy got it when they figured out Alexis couldn't handle it vocally.

"Losing My Mind" was originally Phyllis's number??? What sense does that make? She's not carrying a torch for anyone, so that song has absolutely nothing to do with her life.

[quote]What the hell are you talking about. Houdyshell isn't remotely a "Fanny Brice type," and she was very well cast as Hattie in Follies, a role that does not call for a "Fanny Brice type."

There is no way in hell Houdyshell would have been in the Follies, especially with that frizzy hair, unless she was playing the comic. She's too ugly to be a showgirl and too twitchy to be a chanteuse.

[quote]You just know they're dying to get Streep in this somehow. Certainly, she can't be the only movie actress of a certain age who can sing passably enough.

We're both ready for the recording studio anytime, kids!

The published text of FOLLIES specifically says that Sally is 49. Ben, Phyllis, and Buddy are all in that territory.

Does no one remember Sheree North in the Mary Tyler Moore show as Lou Grant's girlfriend?

Phyllis carries a torch for Ben.

Ethel Shutta. Age or weight has nothing to do with it - Houdyshell was never a teen's fantasy.

[quote] Alexis Smith was 50 when Follies opened. Yvonne DeCarlo was 48 and Dorothy Collins was 45.

Well, if you want to be technical about it, Alexis Smith was actually 49 when it opened. She turned 50 a little over two months after it opened. And Dorothy Collins was actually 44. She didn’t turn 45 till much later (November) that year.

And none of those ladies looked like they were in their 60s, even by today’s standards.

R341, same problem with Lucy and Jessy.

The NT went more Hollywood than Follies with Loveland. But given that there are fewer people who remember live theater of the 20s, 30s and 40s, around today than in 1971, this was probably a wise choice.

Ethel in her prime

R347, don’t be a pedant.

George Clooney as Ben. Matt Damon as Buddy. Catherine Zeta Jones as Phyllis. Amy Adams as Sally. Streep as Carlotta.

Why does every fucking DL theater discussion somehow become a debate around Follies??!

Because we don't heed Heidi

No, r347. Keep pedanting. Pedant until your pedanter falls off.

cc: r350

"Why does every fucking DL theater discussion somehow become a debate around Follies??!"

Just look at the DL primary demographic -older New Yorkers who are hooked on theater. " Follies" gives them hope and a reason to live. . Just look at the plot of the show; it is exactly the lives of the New York theater queens; they see their own lives manifested in these women:

In a shabby yet sparkling atmosphere of bittersweet nostalgia, a wide variety of faded glamour girls -- the famous Follies beauties of years gone by -- laugh, reminisce, brag, boast, express regret, and perform the musical numbers which made them famous, trailed by the ghostly memories of their younger selves.

Please don't deprive them of the only thing that gives them self-esteem and makes their lives worthwhile.

Sheree North was also Blanche's kidney-asking sister, Virginia, who later barred Blanche from Big Daddy's funeral.

"I'm Still Here" is not Carlotta's Follies number.

[quote] it is exactly the lives of the New York theater queens; they see their own lives manifested in these women

I have the heart of Sally but the lifestyle of Phyllis, the longevity of Carlotta, and occasionally, the self doubt of Stella.

A doctor on TV this morning said even after social distancing ends, wearing masks will be the new normal for Americans. So let's think about that in terms of the theater: does that mean if you go see a Broadway show, you're going to need to have a mask over your face for the entire two hours that you're in the theater? Would people actually do that or would they just say fuck it, I'm not going to see shows anymore?

R355 is right. I live for those magical late-night moments on Data Lounge when my laptop starts to vibrate and for a few minutes, the screen expodes into Loveland.

Then it all goes back to the bleak burden of real life when someone makes a post about Andrew Lloyd Weber.

Check the Statuses of Broadway Shows During the Coronavirus Shutdown:

[quote]Does no one remember Sheree North in the Mary Tyler Moore show as Lou Grant's girlfriend?

Charlene Maguire. Her character appeared in two episodes.

”Streep as Carlotta.”

Streep is not enough of a sexpot to be Carlotta. Carlotta clearly says she has a young boy toy and may find a different one next year.

If that no-talent Streep has to be in the film, the only acceptable role is Phyllis and the film will have to use the Rob Marshall quit cut method for her dancing.

Capitalize on her skill with accents and let her play Solange. She can sing that one, too.

Sandy Duncan for Hattie.

Christopher Walken and John Travolta as the Whitmans.

Kevin Bacon could make a good Ben or a good Buddy.

Eydie Gorme was, of course, the ultimate Carlotta Campion. But that dream has gone to the bone yard.

The next best choice would be Queen Latifah. She has everything needed. Carlotta is the only person at the party who is still in show business, albeit too often at the fringe of show business. Latifah has the presence to sweep into that theater dressed to the nines and level with the folks there what it's been like to stay the course and remain in the business. She is the only one who knows. And it's an interesting story. Eartha Kitt made it very interesting. Latifah could, too. Tracie Bennett could not.

[quote]Eydie Gorme was, of course, the ultimate Carlotta Campion.

Odd, I never really thought of Eydie Gorme as a sloe-eyed vamp.

Eydie would have been a great Sally.

Doris Day was always my dream Sally. It was like the part was written for her.

Then you need to get out more, R369. She was not a sex pot in the classic sense, but she did not object to leading with some sex.

Enough about Follies. Come on, give me the dish on the hunky men of Broadway.

Enough about Follies. Come on, give me the dish on the hunky men of Broadway.

[quote]There is no way in hell Houdyshell would have been in the Follies, especially with that frizzy hair, unless she was playing the comic. She's too ugly to be a showgirl and too twitchy to be a chanteuse.

First of all, again, she was supposed to have been in the Follies DECADES earlier, when she was a young woman. Some people's appearances change more than others as they grow old, but you must know there are some people who are very sexy or cute or generally attractive when they're young but you would never know that by looking them at age 70. And though I agree with you that I didn't like Houdyshell's frizzy hair in FOLLIES, there is of no course no reason to think she would have worn her hair that way when she was in the Weisman Follies at age 19 or so.

[quote]Phyllis carries a torch for Ben.

I guess you're referring to the fact that it seems Ben is no longer in love with Phyllis, but that she's still in love with him (although she sure does go back and forth on that). But even if that's true, "carrying a torch" isn't the right term for that sort of situation. Sally's torch song, "Losing My Mind," is clearly about a woman pining for a man she doesn't have and who's not present in her everyday life, not about a husband who has fallen out of love with her.

[quote]Eydie Gorme was, of course, the ultimate Carlotta Campion. But that dream has gone to the bone yard. The next best choice would be Queen Latifah.

At first, I thought you must be joking, but your two choices are so specific, so weird, and so different from each other that I fear you may be serious. Neither of those women is or was a Carlotta. It's hard to think of current performers who fit the bill, because I'm not sure that type really exists anymore -- an older woman who's been through the rigors of life and show business but survived and is still vital and looks like a million bucks. I think Polly Bergen was quite an excellent choice for that otherwise dismal Roundabout production. Ann Miller wasn't completely right for the part, but I think close enough, and she was so fabulous in the part that any quibbles about type really didn't matter.

r341 - Ethel was a song and dance girl, but she did have sex appeal. Also, that's what tryouts are for. Wiser heads prevailed and Losing My Mind went to Dorothy.

r354 - Thank you for the laugh

Bless you, r355.

Big bazooms do not make a vamp.

Flowers For Mrs Harris.

I’m bummed that the Ninth Avenue Food Festival isn’t happening next month. All those chorus boys in flipped flopped feets enjoying their Mozzareppas.

Thom Pain.

Nick Cordero critically ill

Follies is a nice show but doesn’t deserve pages and pages of endless discussion.

Janet Baker Documentary.

[quote]Follies is a nice show but doesn’t deserve pages and pages of endless discussion.

This is DL. It's been years and years of endless discussion.

[quote] Follies is a nice show but doesn’t deserve pages and pages of endless discussion.

Who elected you hall monitor?

Newsweek cover!

And, of course, the Time cover.

Has anyone else watched the NT Live Jane Eyre yet? I enjoyed it mostly, but often found the staging... odd. All that climbing up and down ladders got tiresome (I can only imagine how the cast felt). The role of Jane is a marathon; I'm not sure the actress ever left the stage. It's also a looong show, so I watched it in two sittings.

Nice to see live theatre, albeit streamed, so many thanks to NT Live for that. Treasure Island next.

Catherine Zeta Jones seems the best bet for Carlotta. She has a very DeCarlo quality. She can be vampy, campy, still looks great, is around the right age, and could probably sing it (at least with the benefit of multiple studio takes). I could see her wearing some insane gown and belting it out.

Don't come at me, but Renee Zellwegger would act the shit out of Sally and probably be able to sing it in the Imelda Staunton keys. The only name actress who could potentially sing it in the original keys would be Amy Adams and I'm not even sure about that.

Toni Collette could play Phyllis and probably walk away with the entire movie.

Well, if they cast CZJ and ole Squinty they may as well cast Richard Gere as Ben and get the old gang back together.

Well, at least until its 50th anniversary next year.

R375, there is nothing wrong with my suggestions. I absolutely stand by those two choices. First of all, Eydie Gorme would simply sing the hell out of the song. As if it was written for her. That would be reason enough to cast her in the role.

She started in the business young. Very young. She had no connection to Major Bowes, but at 16 years of age, she won Arthur Godfrey's televised talent contest. Surely that's close enough for you. Then more television. Then she became a double act with Steve Lawrence. Then they were off to Vegas singing the same damned songs every damned night of the week, and always with the eyelashes and the sequins and the chignons. She was, after all, a star. Mostly. And there was the recording career that was always there, but was never the biggest. And Broadway. Once. Twice, actually, but still really once. Carnegie Hall. Guest appearances on shit coms. And telethons. She was a guest for Johnny Carson and Joe Franklin. Anything you point in show business, except the movies, she did. It would be almost impossible to find someone who had more completely run the gamut from A to Z. I would also believe that she couldn't quite put across a sad ballad, especially as a young performer.

Everyone else would come to the party in their nicest clothes, but can you imagine Eydie Gorme appearing in public without sequins and wigs and heels and make up and the whole star lady bit? She and Ann Miller are the obvious choices for women who had by sheer dint of will and a big personality stayed in show business when everyone else had put their dreams to bed and segued to a quieter and more stable life. Latifah could communicate that, too. We are stuck with contemporary choices. Those star ladies are harder to come by. Ruta Lee is still living, but she is 84. Jennifer Jason Leigh is just not cut out for glamour.

Um no, 371 - Doris Day does not have any of that self-pity and needy neurosis - Sally is Debbie Reynolds ... (and Buddy is Donald O'Connor)

The Folly of Youth...

Sarah Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick *are* Sally and Buddy in Follies The Film.

Madonna *is* Carlotta Campion in Follies The Movie. And Sondheim will say she’s the best Carlotta he’s seen, which he says every time he’s asked his opinion on the casting of one of his shows.

The problem, r393, is that Eydie couldn't act for shit.

The problem, r393, is that Eydie couldn't act for shit.

r393 Jane Powell, Mitzi Gaynor, and Janis Paige are all still with us too!

Okay - I have never seen LES MIZ. I started reading the synopsis on Wikipedia, and Act I alone is exhausting. Stopped there.

Do audiences really follow the plot? There’s big jumps in time, assumed identities, etc., all of which seems very disorienting, to say the least. And it’s not like it’s a plot most people already know.

But I guess they made it work (??)

Baffling.

Day was a terrific actress. With a good director she would have shown us neediness and neurosis. The 70s was the perfect time to make a film of Follies. It was like Ethan Morden remarked about the staging of Rudy Vallee's entrance in the original How to Succeed. If you don't have a Rudy Valle in the role it makes no sense. And I think they kept it in the Mathew Broderick Succeed with somebody who was to the general public a nobody. Follies even set in '71 with contemporary performers makes no sense.

I dug out my December 1978 issues of AFTER DARK with June Gable dressed as a dominatrix Dorothy Gale and Peter Piegari in a pair of golden underwear playing her relevant seductee. Cover found at R208.

From the article “The Unexpurgated June Gable” on page 32:

[QUOTE] June is nervous because her first assignment is a guest shot on Johnny Carson’s show, even though all the questions are pre-arranged. “I’m gonna sing Janis Ian’s ‘Stars’ and then Johnny’s supposed to ask me, ‘I understand you replaced Rita Moreno in The Ritz, but you’re not Puerto Rican, are you?’ Then I’m supposed to say, ‘no,” and launch into my Puerto Rican character “It’s all so unnatural.”

[QUOTE] The following week, the writer tunes in to watch June on The Tonight Show. She performed the song beautifully. Carson asks her the prepared question. June replies, ‘No.’ Carson looks at her expectantly. June goes blank. Ed McMahon looks blank. Carson looks angry. June is not asked back.”

She could have made it work. She was on plugola alley for christ's sake not PBS. Though not today of course.

[QUOTE] June is under contract with NBC-TV, which is currently developing a series for her. In general, the pickings have not been choice. Some record producers have offered to transform her into a leather punk star with the S&M girls behind her—an act called June Moon and Lesbos. Others have tried to convince her that a series, “Frankie and Bonnie,” featuring black and white female undercover cops could be a good vehicle. “I asked him if I would be butch or femme. He was not amused.” Mostly, June talks about her nightclub act on a recent Donna Summer concert tour. “That’s a murderous position to be in. All these stoned-out people have some to see Donna Summer, and they are just not ready for this nun who comes screaming down the aisle, accusing them of wanting to hear lewd and lascivious music. Whenever anybody yells out, ‘Where’s Donna Summer?’ I just yell back, ‘Taking a leak. Even disco queens have to pee.’”

R401, you and the rest of us who have no interest in Follies need to disappear for a while. It's like the deplorables live to "stick it to the libs," so too do Follies slaves live to " Stick it to non- believers." So, take a couple weeks off. It will do you good. The Deplorables of Theater have taken over.

Oh, and just to add some Follies-related comments (hahaha R406 - triggered much?):

I saw the NT production in London and thought it was exceptional. There was something really lovely about Young Sally in it. I was kind of captivated by her. I’m so glad I got to see it. Oh, and I loved Imelda which I know is an unpopular opinion here. She was wonderful especially in “Too Many Mornings.” Her Sally also seemed legitimately drunk at the end of the show. Of course, the line about “I should have worn green” made no sense when she was wearing an actual green dress on stage.

If anyone wants additional paragraphs from the June Gable article, let me know. I scanned the whole thing and that was the only Carson-related section.

R393 Jennifer Jason Leigh is also not much of a singer if her stint in Cabaret and the movie Georgia were any indication. Although, I bet her Carlotta would be fascinating. She'd probably play her as an angry drunk with one tit out who now dabbles in sex work to make ends meet. I'm Still Here will feature all the waiters gang fucking her.

How vivid!

Did you all see "On Stage" this week? It was the "at home" edition. Frank D. has a very nice apartment.

[quote]Sandy Duncan for Hattie

About twenty years ago, I would have loved to see what Sandy would have done with Phyllis.

[quote] Did you all see "On Stage" this week? It was the "at home" edition. Frank D. has a very nice apartment.

Of course he does. Daddy bought it for him.

[quote]First of all, Eydie Gorme would simply sing the hell out of the song.

Without having the slightest clue what the lyric was actually saying.

The real problem is that Eydie is dead.

After watching this video, I think Debbie Reynolds had a Phyllis in here. She takes down Shelley Winters, who seems like a Sally next to Reynolds, - Shelley/Shirley is much less dominating once Reynolds comes out and starts making shady asides about her. I don't think Reynolds would give herself over to the pathetic side of Sally. She'd have more of a fun time with the entertaining, alpha Phyllis.

*in her

R401: Actually, Les Miz's first third or so is easy to follow in the theatre, because you get used to who everyone is scene by scene.

After a while, though--perhaps not long after the action moves to Paris--things do get complicated, and by then anyone unfamiliar with the plot is navigating through the music, which tells you who is nice, who is evil, who is friendly, who is hostile, etc.

So by the end, everyone sort of knows what happened, but you couldn't recount the plot with any sort of exactitude, not even for a million dollars.

[quote] Okay - I have never seen LES MIZ. I started reading the synopsis on Wikipedia, and Act I alone is exhausting. Stopped there. Do audiences really follow the plot? There’s big jumps in time, assumed identities, etc., all of which seems very disorienting, to say the least. And it’s not like it’s a plot most people already know.

The first thing about Les Miserables is that it's sung through. So there are no talky book scenes to slow it down. They keep the show moving. But it is long. I think in London in ran 3 hours 20 minutes and I think Broadway cut it down to 3 hours.

The songs are well written enough that people can generally follow the plot. The only time that it got murky for me was during the fighting. All of a sudden, you have these angry boys and it's not really fleshed out as to why they build a barricade and start shooting. So it does help to have a bit of historical knowledge.

But it has some good songs and the spectacle of it is great so it can make for a nice night of theater.

Eydie was actually very funny when she guested on Carol Burnett's show in some skits. Don't know why they didn't hire Steve Lawrence as Nicky Arnstein when they offered her but not him "Funny Girl"; he was better looking than the real Arnstein anyway.

[quote]Don't know why they didn't hire Steve Lawrence as Nicky Arnstein when they offered her but not him "Funny Girl"; he was better looking than the real Arnstein anyway.

Pretty much any actor was better looking than the real Arnstein.

Turn that frown upside down R406.

Curious where you all stand on this.

I have an actor friend who has been posting on IG about how annoyed he is at all the free theater being performed on the internet during the quarantine. He feels that since the actors aren't getting residuals based on the number of streams, it's unfair.

I'm not really sure I see his point. Very little of the streaming theater is being monetized. Most of it is being donated (productions that have already been shot) or done as charity to help raise money for the Actors Fund, etc. (readings, Stars in the House, etc.) And I don't see how it's taking money out of anyone's pocket.

Where do you all come down on this?

As an actor myself, I've made peace with the fact that residuals are basically dead. There are a few shows you can still get a few decent checks from, but you're still working paycheck to paycheck. I don't know many actors who have been able to live off of residuals for awhile unless they negotiated a pretty sweet deal upfront.

I don't believe in residuals at all. The actor was paid to do the initial show and that's it. I'm not paid when my PowerPoint presentation is reused twenty times.

That's because no-one wants to see your PowerPoint presentation.

[quote]—Your use of slide transitions is tedious

I'll have you know I do an EXCELLENT wipe and fade!

R389 I saw it in London and loved it. It was really clever and smart well thought production. I admit I don’t remember too much of it but I was happy to see it.

Almost all of my acting has been on the stage. We're lucky to get union scale. I did a show once that ended up on Great Performances, but I never saw a dime from the two airings.

At this point, in the middle of the crisis, I think most of us would be happy to be part of any new project -Just to be working! Who knows what future doors might open as a result?

Sit back, honey child, and let Miss Nell show you how to work a stage.

June easily assimilating....

I really miss sitting in a theater waiting for a show to begin. Sad to think it may be a while before we experience that again.

Renee Zellweger as Sally and CZJ as Phyllis is actually not a bad idea.

Hugh Jackman as Ben.

Hmmm....not sure for Buddy.

Frank D’s digs were all paid for by daddy, no doubt.

Frank’s brother Chris is smokin’ hot and is rumored to have a terrific cock.

The TONY nominations are just out.....

"Bombshell" has 12, but new-kid-on-the-block, "Hit List" has 13!

Both up for best book, best score, Best Actress, and Best Musical! It's gonna be one catfight!

A catfight with the cats 6 feet apart.

Word is that Tom Levitt and Julia Houston's next project is a musicalization of "The Great Gatsby."

Let's see if the dynamic duo can pull that one off!

Oh my God, have we really devolved down to the point of “Smash” references? Damn this fucking virus!

[quote] Debbie Reynolds had a Phyllis in her

Pics please.

Don't say you didn't ask for it--

Phyllis had magic fingers!

CZJ would be a terrific Phyllis. I like the idea of Chris Pine as Ben. It would be great to have a real ex hoofer as the role was intended for Buddy, but who would that be? I think Sally is nearly impossible to cast currently. There needs to be a terrific voice, and it needs to NOT be desperate mental illness played at the highest pitch by every actor of the last twenty five years. Sally is ALWAYS miscast now. Dorothy Collins was pretty much perfect, but that talent archetype simply doesn’t exist today. A pop singer with a genuine almost classical singing technique who can also subtly act. Good luck finding that. Nowadays, you get OTT hysteria and tics. It’s awful to watch. I loathed both Bernie and Imelda in the role, both brilliant actors that have given iconic performances elsewhere.

Victoria Clark, on the other hand, was perfectly cast and amazing as Sally in LA

I think Jake G could be a good Buddy, if he can dance.

[quote]R442 A pop singer with a genuine, almost classical, singing technique who can also subtly act. Good luck finding that.

Debbie Gibson. Or Debbie Boone?

R444-He's been a fabulous buddy to me.

[quote]Almost all of my acting has been on the stage.

And in bed.

Victoria Clark and her wobble? No thanks.

What about Jessie Mueller?

Mueller is 37 (officially) but she has that sort of face that you wouldn't question it if she told you she was 48.

Sherie Rene Scott for Sally

Could Meagan Mullally play Sally?

Last I heard Mulally sing, her voice didn't sound so hot.

“Last I heard Mulally sing, her voice didn't sound so hot.”

I’m on it.

"Follies" doesn't feature semitones in its score.

or microtones

or quarter tones

They need a decent box office names to sell this thing to anyone beyond DL

CZJ and Zellweger reuniting could help

Emma Thompson as Phyllis sounds good to me

Does Cate Blanchett sing? She could turn in a respectable Phyllis.

Justin Timberlake will be Buddy by the time this thing gets made.

Brooke Shields can sing!

I think...

David Archuleta as Young Buddy!

Brooke Shields, no joke, would probably be a great Phyllis. She could easily handle that score and she's quite funny as well. She's tall and striking, too. I've been very surprised by how much she's improved as an actress since her early days. She has a real knack for comedy.

I'm sure they're seeking out more of the Kidmans and Blanchetts for that role, though.

Siggy Weaver as Phyllis.

Brooke could play Hattie. I think the movie should go the Linda Lavin route and break out Broadway Baby from the other songs. The song is a comic song and Brooke could sell it. Brooke doesn’t have a name that will bring in ticket buyers so I think Hattie could work for her.

The montage is important, though. It lays the groundwork for Loveland. And it's also a significant part of the filmic approach to a stage property.

How about "Follies in Space"?

Weren't they trying to get Weaver for that role for the Roundabout revival before they settled for Danner? I also heard Jean Smart and Cybill Shepherd's names mentioned.

Lest we forget that Kim Catrall was originally attached as Phyllis for the Bernadette revival? I'd have liked to have seen that.

And poor dear Maria Friedman thought she was going to play Sally in the Kennedy Center FOLLIES.

Laugh me off the internet, but what about Tom Cruise for Ben?

Whatever happened to that wonderful dancer from the Billy Joel musical "Movin' Out", John Selya? He was terrific. Can he sing? He could sure dance the hell out of Buddy, though he's not a name. Does he still perform?

Zac Efron for Ben! Corbin Bleu for Buddy!

Tom Cruise is actually a surprisingly good singer and Lord knows he knows his way around a mental breakdown. Put some couches for him to jump on during his follies number and we're all set.

Jamie Bell could dance. It's weird to think that in 10 years of less, he could play Buddy. Hell, dub Richard Madden and he coud play Ben NOW.

Someone should offer Christine Crane to Katy Holmes.

Michelle Williams is a Sally. I don't expect to have a great Sally, vocally, on the big screen.

We could do the scandal version of Follies. James Levine for Weismann. Kevin Spacey for Buddy, Placido Domingo as Roscoe, Claudine Longet as Solange, etc.

Is there a role for me?

If he can dance, he can do the dance pas de deux (Vincent?) with a cockatoo on his shoulder.

“The montage is important, though. It lays the groundwork for Loveland. And it's also a significant part of the filmic approach to a stage property.”

It won’t work in a film for modern audiences. I can almost believe they’ll cut the Rain On The Roof number in the film. And unless they get some exciting guest star, Ah, Paree could be cut as well. The director will have to keep things moving along and those songs don’t lend anything to a movie version.

In fact, I think they’ll cut entire characters to focus on the leads. Ben, Phyllis, Sally, Buddy and Carlotta will be the focus. Anything else will end up on the cutting room floor.

I imagine the showgirls will be Phyllis, Sally, Carlotta, Stella and a reimagined Hattie. Everyone else gets dumped.

I always expected a lot of those numbers to take place in the background as the leads are talking. They could still keep them, but reduce them to minor little bits.

People often complain about "stagebound" movie musicals. It would be a mistake to cut back on the filmic aspects of Follies in a movie version.

Fun fact: after Claudine Longet was acquitted, she was offered a huge sum to lead a national tour of Chicago but she turned it down.

And now for the younger cast -the ghosts. Here's a great audition video for Young Ben and Young Buddy!

Celine Dion for Solange.

To cut out the non-leads numbers would be a mistake. Look at the response to Josephine Barstow singing "One More Kiss" in the NT production. I've encountered multiple people who never appreciated the number until that performance. It's not like such numbers are just audio "set dressing." "I'm Still Here" is a wise counterpoint to the despair expressed by the leads. "One More Kiss" serves a similar function. Paring the show don't to the leads would take away a huge amount of richness and resonance. With just the four leads, much of it just domestic drama, and not the kind that slays audiences, the kind that makes them think "shit or get off the pot, complainer!"

*Paring the shown down to just the leads

Folie à deux?

Every time a musical film pares down the score to just the leads, it suffers both critically and at the box office. A Funny Thing Happened... A Little Night Music... Sweeney Todd...

“I always expected a lot of those numbers to take place in the background as the leads are talking. They could still keep them, but reduce them to minor little bits.”

But how do you explain that? Why are a bunch of old women performing in the background? And why are Sally and Phyllis so callous that they talking over it when they should be watching?

The reason Follies has never been filmed is because it mixes reality with fantasy. Unless they have a gimmick like Chicago did of seeing the show through someone’s mind, the fantasy portions aren’t going to work.

The NT production solved some of these problems by having reporters and cameramen on stage. Suddenly, Carlotta wasn’t just singing her song. She was telling reporters about her life.

Speaking of not-so-hot voices, did anyone see Karen Cartwright in the Boston tryout for "Bombshell"? I heard she was a big part of the problem there. Well, Karen in the lead, and then lots of issues with Julia Houston's book.

I can't wait to see Ivy Lynn as Marilyn! I've heard Julia did major surgery on the book and even called in a dramaturg.

[Quote] Every time a musical film pares down the score to just the leads, it suffers both critically and at the box office.

Well... CABARET...

”To cut out the non-leads numbers would be a mistake. Look at the response to Josephine Barstow singing "One More Kiss" in the NT production. I've encountered multiple people who never appreciated the number until that performance.”

I’m one of those that always *hated* that song until I saw Barstow do it. She made me cry (oh, Mary!) Why? Because it finally came together. She wasn’t just some fruity operetta singer. She was a frail woman saying goodbye to her life. There would be no more reunions for her.

The point is that unless the actress is perfectly cast, the song will just be some screechy soprano wasting time.

Which brings another point. Will the movie be made as an art house project or be sold to the mainstream? Art house audiences will appreciate One More Kiss. Mainstream audiences will be bored with it.

[Quote] The reason Follies has never been filmed is because it mixes reality with fantasy. Unless they have a gimmick like Chicago did of seeing the show through someone’s mind, the fantasy portions aren’t going to work.

Why wouldn't they work? Film is a much easier medium to achieve fantasy effects than the stage.

[Quote] The point is that unless the actress is perfectly cast,

Isn't that FOLLIES all over? And that's why I'll never fail to chuckle when YouTube recommends me a community theatre or high school production of FOLLIES.

[Quote] Mainstream audiences will be bored with it.

Not if they give it to Betty White!

“Why wouldn't they work? Film is a much easier medium to achieve fantasy effects than the stage.”

Movies require one or the other. The tone has to be all reality or all fantasy. Very few films have mixed both successfully.

The mixing can be done very easily on stage. A weird light change and we realize we’re in Tevye’s dream and we switch from reality. That doesn’t work in film.

The original Teeny Todd and the last Minetta Lane revival were both critical and box office successes.

The original Teeny Todd and the last Minetta Lane revival were both critical and box office successes.

You can skip most of FOLLIES and just do "One More Kiss" and you've pretty much the whole thing. There's not a lot in FOLLIES that can't be found in "One More Kiss."

As for a movie version of FOLLIES, they did it already and it was called THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT.

They'd be wise to do something like the documentary crew thing from the NT production and, since this is from the same team, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they do. Loveland could really be something on a big screen with a visionary director.

The issue is the as R497 said. There needs to be a way to ease in from the fantasy sequences into the real stuff. Maybe having it all take place in Sally's mind isn't the worst idea in the world. Her mind is a pretty interesting place after all. Plus, it might give us a lead character to latch on to. Have her enter the decrepit, creepy old theater at the beginning and imagine what it looked like when she was performing in the Follies all those years ago. Unfortunately, this renders numbers like One More Kiss, The Right Girl, I'm Still Here, and Could I Leave You tough to translate since she's not there for them. This was the same issue with Nine. Guido wouldn't have the awareness of Luisa to imagine her singing "My Husband Makes Movies."

Goddamn, it's tough to make this work as a movie.

Look at the movie version of Chicago.

My Own Best Friend should have been in the movie. It’s a great power ballad. But they couldn’t find a way to make it work realistically.

Same with Dreamgirls. They cut some great material from the stage version because it couldn’t work in film.

On stage, John and Abigail pouring out their thoughts to one another was the simplest thing in the world.

And then... well, I 'spects you all saw the movie.

[Quote] A weird light change and we realize we’re in Tevye’s dream and we switch from reality. That doesn’t work in film.

No. They could instantly move to a different location - whatever Tevye sees, no?

Can we PLEASE get back to "Follies"?

Everyone says that Polly Bergin was the best thing about the ;lackluster Roundabout Follies but Met Opera star Rosalind Elias as Heidi was even better. Sondheim said many times that he adored her.

Perhaps they could achive the "fantasy progress" by having the ghosts gradually become "solid." In the early part of the movie, the ghosts are semi-translucent. By Loveland, they can be touched and they can touch back.

The other problem Follies will have is the same one A Chorus Line had. One set movies get pretty boring.

They’re going to have to do some out of theater filming to open it up.

Possibly “Too Many Mornings” and “Buddy’s Eyes” would be moved to before they reached the theater.

They could move Too Msny Mornings to a fire escape outside the theater. A Sondheim love duet on a fire escape is a sure thing.

I think some of you are overthinking it. Did you balk at "Greased Lightning" in the movie of GREASE? Once people are singing their thoughts, audiences are already suspending their disbelief. And speaking of that number, does the shift just take place in Danny Zuko's head, or in the heads of everyone who's working on the car? I don't think it matters. We're shown a fantasy version of the completed car. And then we're back to reality. On to the next scene we go.

I hope Sondheim gets to be one of the ten elderly men from the UN.

They need to open up the scenes of the 4 principals in flashback, with their younger selves.

Maybe get a screenwriter with a great ear for youthful, sexy energy, particularly from the women's POV, like Diablo Cody or Lena Dunham.

Do we absolutely need the young Follies numbers? Have we already gotten the bright eyed and bushy tailed stuff from "Waiting for the Girls Upstairs"?

It would be interesting to see more of the young 4. Maybe even see Sally's suicide attempts.

I like the idea of the ghosts becoming more and more real as the night progresses. It could be very Twilight Zone to have them actual begin interacting with the ghosts.

Charles Busch as Phyllis and Divine as Sally would have been fabulous. Too bad that moment is long passed. Divine would have made a terrific Carlotta, too.

I knew when I posted that someone would say CABARET. But that's not a fair comparison. Not only did the film throw out most of the score, it also threw out the libretto, the plot, and quite a few major characters. Cabaret was a musical film, but it was not a film of the stage musical. It managed to succeed because it was its own thing, and not a pale imitation of the stage version.

Lens would make Sally a Fibro Warrior.

As if FOLLIES isn't long enough...

[Quote] It could be very Twilight Zone to have them actual begin interacting with the ghosts.

That's been done in Loveland before. The leads led off separately by the fantasy characters in their operetta attire.

Vicky Clark lisped through the entire run. And her upper arm meat was wobbly.

As fine as she was, Dorothy Collins sang with a lisp (though she concealed it reasonably well). Polly Bergen yelled most of her "I'm Still Here" though for some reason she got mostly good reviews in the Roundabout version. I though Betty Garrett was still fun, but the highlight was actually seeing and hearing Joan Roberts on stage live, sounding almost exactly as she did on the OCR of "Oklahoma!", except, of course, she was singing "One More Kiss".

I don't know. Blythe Danner bumping into chorus boys was pretty fun, too.

One thing I don't understand is the hate for Judith Ivey. She was a bit miscast in the role, but I thought she handled the singing surprisingly well. I recall her hitting all the notes. I suppose she didn't exactly have a soaring, powerful voice, but she didn't completely embarrass herself.

Ivy Lynn as Sally! Karen Cartwright as Phyllis!

Michael Swift as Ben, Jimmy Collins as Buddy!

Derek Swift directs and choreographs a brand new production from Eileen Rand that sounds like... TODAY!

Ivey was a complete blank onstage, IMHO. Not terrible but not at all emotionally involving. No sense of time or place, either.

I remember a friend describing Ivey's "Losing My Mind."

"Well, she got through it." That's a pretty low bar.

[quote]Did you balk at "Greased Lightning" in the movie of GREASE?

Having seen the original production on Broadway, I must certainly did balk at "Greased Lightning" in the movie of GREASE.

[Quote] Having seen the original production on Broadway, I must certainly did balk at "Greased Lightning" in the movie of GREASE.

Was the song not in the stage production.

[quote]R491 I can't wait to see Ivy Lynn as Marilyn! I've heard Julia did major surgery on the book and even called in a dramaturg.

I worked with Ivy. Fine until she doesn’t get what she wants - then she’s a rabid barracuda. Plus...pills.

personally, i also think she’s too short and chunky to be MM. But we’ll see.

Ivy's been looking especially puffy lately.

Award season jitters? Booze? Or is she... pregnant?

[quote]Everyone says that Polly Bergin was the best thing about the lackluster Roundabout Follies but Met Opera star Rosalind Elias as Heidi was even better. Sondheim said many times that he adored her.

Rosalind Elias wasn't in the Roundabout "Follies." She played Heidi in the 2011 Broadway revival. Heidi in the Roundabout production was Joan Roberts, the original Laurey in "Oklahoma!" She was later replaced by Marni Nixon.

I guess Follies just blurs in my mind at this point, r529.

Bergen was fantastic in Follies -at least the night I saw it. I don't remember her singing as much as I remember her Star Quality. It's something that few have. I have seen many stars enter a stage to thunderous applause, but that' not quite the same thing. I'm talking about owning every inch of the stage when you set foot on it. Every eye in the house on you, whether or not your character is the focus of the scene. Polly Bergen was like that. So was Kathleen Turner in The Graduate in London. An overwhelming stage presence.

Bandstand.

I saw Marni Nixon . She was great and got a huge response. The poster above who said that One More Kiss encapsulates/summarizes the entire show is right. It's amazing it was recorded for the OBCR but wasn't included on the album. It was first released on CD version years later.

Pride and Prejudice - The Musical.

Leonard conducts West Side Story.

I watched P&P (R534) on Friday, when it premiered online.

I'll refrain from comment until others have a chance to watch it.

And thanks for that link in particular, R532.

Beth Leavel in Pride and Prejudice? I guess...

There was a 1959 Broadway musical version of Pride and Prejudice titled First Impressions that starred Hermione Gingold, Farley Granger -- and Polly Bergin!

^ Er, Bergen, not Bergin.

R529 I agree that Elias was astonishing--the best thing in that production. I love the original recording of Barber's Vanessa with her as Erica--so to hear that in some part of my memory while she was singing One More Kiss actually made the "haunting" quality especially poignant.

Polly Bergen was an unremitting drear in that production. But she didn't do it alone. The director was in on it, as was the costume designer. Aw, hell. Don't forget the casting director.

Not for a moment did Bergen stand out as the only person at that party who was still toughing it out in show business. There was nothing theatrical about that Carlotta. Even the name "Carlotta Campion" should clue a good actress and good director that this character is colorful and a bit over the top. But, no. What we got was a plain and unexciting woman who could have been named Polly.

Barbara Dickson has put out her umpteenth compilation, which includes a concert version of "I'm Still Here."

I'd rather have seen Polly here, than angry Elaine Paige (or can't sing it Elaine Stritch). Bennett's performance of the number worked but I'm sick of her Garland schtick.

Where is this performance from? An understudy rehearsal? A cabaret performance?

*spoke too soon. Obviously not a rehearsal.

R490, actually the NT staging of I'm Still Here was very close to Prince and Bennett's staging. Carlotta begins telling her anecdote to a small group of men, then begins singing to them, then as they leave she sings to herself.

The difficulty of filming Follies is you have so many types of numbers:

--Book songs (like I'm Still Here and How Could I Leave You)

--Performance numbers (like the montage)

--Fantasy numbers (Loveland)

and numbers where you are not sure which they are. Or some for which it is one type of number for some participants and another type for others. (One Last Kiss)

Finding a style that can contain all these variations is hard on stage. But even harder on film.

^^^Actually, the montage is maybe a fantasy number? Or the ending is? Or what?

You see the problem?

R541, Yet, she was Tony nominated.

Film all the ghosts from the 20s in two-strip Technicolor and the ghosts from the 40s in three-strip Technicolor. For the contemporary scenes, film them in shitty looking faded out Eastmancolor. Done!

Yes, R548, and Amy Irving was nominated for an Oscar for Yentl.

It would be interesting to see the fantasy/flashback portions in bright Technicolor and the present day stuff in dreary, de-saturated color until, at the end, they open the doors and step out into the morning air - a bright Technicolor rainbow hangs in the air, letting them know they can still find the color in their lives and they're gonna love tomorrow. It's been a long dark night of the soul for all of them, but they'll get through it.

I saw Bergen in the Roundabout FOLLIES. She was a funny, classy lady with an elegant presence, but a good stage singer? Not so much.

[quote]at the end, they open the doors and step out into the morning air - a bright Technicolor rainbow hangs in the air, letting them know they can still find the color in their lives and they're gonna love tomorrow. It's been a long dark night of the soul for all of them, but they'll get through it.

Can we work the coronavirus in with the reunion in the FOLLIES film? They've just re-assembled and--BOOM!--they're all together under quarantine. Forced to reflect together about their past, their lives, their loves. Unsure if there will be a tomorrow.

Because.... topical. Timely. I smell BEST PICTURE.

For someone who only gave up smoking late in life, the amount of voice Bergen had left was pretty miraculous. Not one of the best Carlottas, though.

I loved Janie Dee’s Phyllis.

It wasn't recorded for the OBCR, r533. That version was done for a Sondheim evening (the Scrabble piece cover?). It was then added to the FOLLIES CD. O.K., how about a six hour mini series? Use Chapin's book as a template. Cast the actors as the original cast. The first third would be about the casting and rehearsals in NYC. Second third would be the Boston tryout and load-in to NYC. The last third would be the complete show on opening night, replicating Prince's, Bennett's, Aronson's and Klotz's work.

Remember Kristin's PSA?

Now you've made me think for the first time in decades of the final image in the original production of the morning light coming through and seeing the partially destroyed theater in a harshness that forbid all romanticizing. So sad and at the same time magnificent.

Why were these people allowed to have a party on a demolition site you may ask?

Well the opening night party for the world premiere of the film Funny Girl at the Criterion(I loved that movie theater, I brought a friend to see Superman there and she thought it was wonderful) at 44th St and 7th Ave was held on the demolition site of the legendary Astor Hotel across the Street. Since Funny Girl celebrated a NY theatrical history which had vanished at that point it was apropos.

R556, that's just not right. One Last Kiss was recorded for the OBC and not included on the vinyl album, presumably for time reasons. When they were planning the CD release, they went back to the original master tapes, hoping to find a substantial amount that had been recorded but not used when the decision was made to release the OBC as one disc instead of two. All they found were OLK and a handful of bits and pieces, mainly from Loveland. Their was quite a bit of publicity about it when the CD was released.

Prince said later in interviews he bitterly regretted giving the recording rights to Capitol instead of Columbia with Goddard Lieberson producing. For some reason he was on the outs with Lieberson and Capitol offered him more money so he took their deal. Lieberson would have recorded the bulk of the score and released it as a two disc album.

r542 Any relation?

^ There was, not Their was. Whatever.

I saw "Bandstand" on Broadway ... in the first row. Perhaps I was just transfixed by the beauty of Corey Cott (and his magnificent chest hair) being a few feet away from me, but I rather enjoyed it. I'm glad they were able to capture it on film.

Sharon Stone and Halle Berry should Star in Follies—that way we’ll all be sure beforehand what a flop it will be

What extra song will Sondheim write for the Follies movie as an Oscar grab?

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, r559.

What an incredible lack of Judgement on Prince's part to allow personal spite to rule over musical theater posterity. At about the same time Papp got ABC to record much of TGOV on two lps. I always wondered how that happened and how free theater off off Broadway Papp managed to outthink Broadway legend (even at that point) Prince.

Couldn't they have recorded the complete OBC of FOLLIES and made the cuts after, thus allowing for a complete release of the score down the line? Special/Expanded editions of albums are common now and while I guess they weren't back then, it wasn't like budget versions of albums didn't exist. They could have put out a prestige version (multi disc, gatefold etc.) and a cut down budget release.

On The Simpsons tonight, mobster Fat Tony's darkest secret was revealed to be that he likes to sing along with the Follies cast recording. Seriously. From the album cover art, it seemed to be the 2011 production.

It’s like we’re all being spied on by Korean animators.

[quote]What extra song will Sondheim write for the Follies movie as an Oscar grab?

None. By the time that they film it, he'll be dead.

R565, R559 is correct.

Recording time is very expensive -Performers and musicians' contracts specify a huge overtime rate for the sessions, and it's not uncommon for a single-disc to cost upwards of $150,000. The cost of recording the whole score was simply beyond their budget. As it is, the album wasn't even recorded in the usual studios. Everything was done on the cheap (and it showed). It would have been better if they had simply done a live album of the show, but hindsight is always 20-20.

When Nine was recorded, they were also strapped for budget, so they figured they would simply run the show twice, recording everything without any stops or retakes, and edit what they could. If Follies had done that, we'd be able to put it together in a fairly complete form today.

R559 is 100% correct. "One Last Kiss" was recorded for the OBCR, but cut for time. The studio recording of it was included when Follies was first released on CD. It's not the Scrabble Album version.

[Quote] Recording time is very expensive -Performers and musicians' contracts specify a huge overtime rate for the sessions, and it's not uncommon for a single-disc to cost upwards of $150,000. The cost of recording the whole score was simply beyond their budget.

They could have recorded the music and vocals separately. I believe "The Grass Harp" music tracks were outsourced to the Czech Republic. Karen Morrow has spoken about it. There were ways to make it happen. Prince made quite a stupid error and it wasn't his first time at the rodeo.

[quote]Recording time is very expensive -Performers and musicians' contracts specify a huge overtime rate for the sessions

The orchestra for Company must've loved Elaine then

I humbly stand....sit...corrected, r572.

And I'm pretty sure you're wrong, r565.

From The Sondheim Review:

[quote]Bonus Track Release [quote ]Adds the 1971 recording of "One More Kiss" that was omitted from the original release. Liner notes by Dider C. Deutsch

[quote]Compact Disc, 1989 [Capitol CDP 7 92094 2] Cassette reissue, 1989 [Capitol C4 92094]

[quote]That's what tryouts are for. Wiser heads prevailed and Losing My Mind went to Dorothy.

Yes, but why would Sondheim have intended a torch song for Phyllis in the first place? That seems so completely wrong for her Follies number. I just don't get it.

[quote]Okay - I have never seen LES MIZ. I started reading the synopsis on Wikipedia, and Act I alone is exhausting. Stopped there. Do audiences really follow the plot? There’s big jumps in time, assumed identities, etc., all of which seems very disorienting, to say the least. And it’s not like it’s a plot most people already know.

The Playbill for the original Broadway production had a synopsis printed in it, at least when the show first opened. Not sure how long that continued. Yes, there are huge gaps in the story. The original French concept album of LES MIZ was only about 90 minutes long, I think, and the songs on it were not intended to tell the whole story of that massive novel.

[quote]The first thing about Les Miserables is that it's sung through. So there are no talky book scenes to slow it down. They keep the show moving. But it is long.

What are you talking about? If there were book scenes, that would have allowed the show to cover the plot much quicker than sung dialogue. So what you wrote is the opposite of the truth.

[quote]Victoria Clark and her wobble? No thanks.

R448, Victoria Clark does not have a "wobble," unless it has developed very recently. I saw her as Sally in the Encores FOLLIES, and I agree she was perfect for the part and great in it.

[quote]The reason Follies has never been filmed is because it mixes reality with fantasy. Unless they have a gimmick like Chicago did of seeing the show through someone’s mind, the fantasy portions aren’t going to work.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Echoing what others have written here: In the stage version of FOLLIES, different numbers exist on different levels of reality, and some even seem to mix different levels in one song. In a movie, they would probably feel they'd need to make the level of reality of each song clearer, and that might not work.

[quote]Look at the movie version of Chicago. My Own Best Friend should have been in the movie. It’s a great power ballad. But they couldn’t find a way to make it work realistically.

I've never understood the argument that "My Own Best Friend" was cut because it didn't fit into the concept of the film. It could have been retained as one more "fantasy of an on-stage performance" number, like most of the rest of them. They could even have kept that intro line from the show, and had Taye Diggs say, "And now, Miss Roxie Hart and Miss Velma Kelly in a song of unrelenting determination and unmitigated ego." Or, if they wanted to revert to the original idea of having the song be a solo for Roxie, then "And now, Miss Roxie Hart in a song...."

[quote]On stage, John and Abigail pouring out their thoughts to one another was the simplest thing in the world. And then... well, I 'spects you all saw the movie.

Really? I think those sequences are some of the highlights of the movie.

I have just listened to both tracks, side by side (pun intended) and it is clear they are different performances -The tempo on the cast album is considerably brighter/faster than the concert recording. Very typical of cast album recording sessions, where songs are routinely sped up, slowed down, or key-changed to fit the musical needs rather than the dramatic needs of the stage performance.

R567 and R573, know so little about how recordings of Broadway shows were done in the 70s.

There were no alternate versions of show albums. There were sometimes studio versions of popular scores that might qualify as "budget." But a scheme like you suggest would have been groundbreaking--and no one does groundbreaking for a show that is not a runaway success. I cannot think of any such full-score and highlights recordings being released until the age of CDs.

The Grass Harp was recorded after the show closed. The idea that rehearsing and recording a foreign orchestra when you have one playing the music 8 times week would somehow cut costs is just silly.

The cut One More Kiss with Mallory and Johnson.

Phyllis still loves Ben but he's been absent from their marriage. I don't see why she wouldn't sing a torch song.

Phyllis' moment has always been a problem. After they moved "Losing My Mind" they gave her "Uptown/Downtown" which then had to be changed to "Story of Lucy & Jessie" and then for the London production "Ah, But Underneath."

[quote]Yes, but why would Sondheim have intended a torch song for Phyllis in the first place?

It was a brand new show, not based on pre-existing material. They were exploring the material and the possibilities. That's what rehearsals and previews are for. As mentioned above, it was Alexis Smith herself went to the creative team saying it was a much better song for Collins than for her.

Earlier in the show, Phyllis got her some black dick. I'd be singing about "Losing My Mind" as well.

[Quote] The idea that rehearsing and recording a foreign orchestra when you have one playing the music 8 times week would somehow cut costs is just silly.

Session musicians don't tend to rehearse. They read the music and play it.

[R579] clearly knows what s/he is talking about.

Interestingly, even mega-hit status won't guarantee subsequent, fuller releases or recordings. At the time, everyone was asking why no London cast recording for the big hit, Wicked. Simple. The Broadway orchestra for the show had an exclusive. The only way an album could be done was to use the original Broadway orchestra, or pay them to re-use their original tracks. And that was something the British unions wouldn't agree to.

A few years back a similar arrangement was made with the Broadway production of the British show, Blood Brothers. There were three or four different cast albums released virtually at the same time -Petula Clark, Stephanie Lawrence, Maria Holt... The singers were performing to the same, pre-recorded orchestra tracks, which made it financially feasible...

And there is no OBCR of Phantom. The OLCR was released in the US instead.

"Ah! But Underneath" seems to have few fans here but I think the lyric is more interesting than the other two numbers. I think it actually shows how well yoked the Stones are - both feel they are frauds. And Phyllis knows that she's smart, smarter than Ben, but she's done herself and him a disservice by pretending to be what she believes he wanted. "Uptown Downtown" is about the pull of high and low life - there's more to Phyllis than that. "Lucy and Jessie" is better but not great either.

Phyllis is a sophisticated cynical well to do woman. They don't sing torch songs. They sing songs like Could I leave You?

Also Lucy and Jessie is practically atonal in its lack of melody. For a big smashing production number like that you needed less Milton Babbitt and more Cole Porter.

One wrinkle as yet not discussed regarding cast albums. The format. Back in 1982, cassettes were still a viable format. They held a lot of music. I bought the OBC for NINE on cassette tape. It had/has about 20 minutes more music than the LP did. In subsequent CD releases, I don't know if they used the cassette tape version, or the LP version, or some third version mixed in the studio.

But I'm sure someone here knows.

Phyllis plays at sophistication and cynicism. She's more romantic than she lets on. Her comment about the Georgian silver betrays her. As does the wet panties comment.

I'm one of those that likes Ah! But Underneath the best. In my opinion, the song flows better than Lucy/Jessie. I get that Sondheim doesn't like it because of its simplistic rhymes. Ah! But Underneath has that effortless, classy feel that makes me think of Lauren Bacall's acting in To Have And Have Not. There's a smoothness about it.

Alexis Smith couldn't handle much melody.

Criticize if you must, but Lucy & Jessie made a huge splash. It was the number that scored most of the initial publicity for the show—Alexis on the cover of Newsweek and Time in the red dress, etc.

I like "Ah, but Underneath!" much better than "The Story of Lucy and Jessie," except when it appears in a production of FOLLIES.

That hard driving dance music from 'Lucy and Jessie' gives a tremendous kick to the show and to Phyllis's character. "Ah, but Underneath!" plays well to Diana Rigg's strengths, but not to Phyllis's strengths, and certainly not to the show's strengths.

[Quote] "Ah, but Underneath!" plays well to Diana Rigg's strengths, but not to Phyllis's strengths,

How so?

I agree that the Lucy dance break is killer - except when Juliet Prowse danced some uninspired choreography in pants.

I love Diana Rigg but her vocals are lousy here. And her accent verges on a piss take.

R585, but that does not address the point. How would it be cheaper to send a producer and possibly the musical director to record session musicians in Europe than use the shows orchestra?

And if that is cheaper than why didn't other shows that recorded their albums before closing do it?

R596, it is my understanding that Rigg was not a good dancer and did not want to be made a fool of. For Rigg, Sondheim wrote a new song, one that could be acted, not danced. That late in the show, FOLLIES doesn't need more talking. The jazz dance number helps drive it home.

New Thread

[Quote] How would it be cheaper to send a producer and possibly the musical director to record session musicians in Europe than use the shows orchestra?

To discuss that, we'd have to see the figures. How much did the Czechs undercut musicians and recording studios in New York, LA, or London?

[Quote] it is my understanding that Rigg was not a good dancer and did not want to be made a fool of.

If only Jan Maxwell had such foresight.

"Ah! But Underneath" could have a dance break inserted. And "Lucy & Jessie" is very wordy.

I wonder why Diana Rigg felt she couldn't handle the Lucy & Jessie choreography.

There was hardly anything to it.

But it was still a terrific number. Even this very scaled-down version Alexis Smith did on the 1975 Tonys got a big ovation partway through.

Bajour

Now back to Follies. Smith was a revelation because of her sensational legs, the red dress and the Bennett choreography. It all worked in spite of the song.