Faye Vs. Joan

which one is more insane?

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Judging by Chinatown, Network, and the vastly underrated Barfly, I think Faye was the better actress and displayed more range. I even think Faye did a better job playing Joan than Joan ever could have.

Faye was far and away the better actress. Network and Chinatown are way beyond Joan’s reach.

Joan was more iconic by far. She is the basis of the evil queen in Snow White. Her face is practically a brand in Hollywood lore. Faye had more acting talent, but she doesn’t rival Joan’s star.

I mean, cmon. Faye has nothing on the visual impression.

R1 Joan had her moments, but I don't think she was actually insane. Faye is the living definition....

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Joan had a very difficult upbringing and ended up as a “bottomless hole ego” narcissist with OCD, anxiety and panic disorders.

Faye’s problem is that she probably always had it too easy.

Joan is only remembered thanks to her daughter’s book. Without it Joan would have been forgotten. She was not a remarkable actress nor beauty.

Joan looks like Nancy Reagan.

R9 That’s totally wrong. She’s remembered by Mildred Pierce, which is still strikingly modern, and by her feud with Bette Davis. Bette *was* a great actress who spanned many decades and at least a couple of performance styles, and she and Joan are always going to be remembered in comparison to one another.

In many documented incidents, Faye has demonstrated she can be far more of a monster than Joan. Joan was always professional, showed up on time, and went out of her way to please fans. Faye has lost jobs because of her notoriety of being unprofessional, has been horrible when confronted by fans, and anyone on the street. Faye is far more abusive to people than Joan ever was. Joan was really only abusive to two people who should count the most: her children.

Joan has two really good moments here when she says “Vida!”

The first is when she gasps it around 1:20. She sounds convincingly hurt and shocked.

The second is when she barks it (1:57) as Vida is running up the steps.

These are very good performance moments by Joan Crawford standards.

Faye played crazy in Network, crazy in Chinatown, crazy in Mommie, crazy in Supergirl...

Yes, but they were different shades of crazy. That's important.

[quote] She’s remembered by Mildred Pierce

99% of people have never seen that film, hon. The majority of the world is not a 60+ fag.

[quote] The first is when she gasps it around 1:20. She sounds convincingly hurt and shocked.

lol

R16 It’s one of the first films I was assigned to watch in college. It’s not going anywhere.

If you’re thinking of movies and stars only young people know, then you’re limited to the Marvel universe.

Being abusive to your children makes you the bigger monster.

Joan was very beautiful when she was young, more beautiful than Faye. She was also an excellent actress. But as actresses, they both devolved into camp monsters in midlife, and all their early promise was chewed up with the scenery.

I I'll take Joan over Faye any day, her camp monster roles are so much more fun than Faye's!

Young Joan was as good a dancer as Little Edie!

Great smile.

Ever see Faye do this?

And a musician, too!

Young Courtney Cox and young Joan look a lot a like.

[R9] Are you for real?Joan Crawford was a living legend and one of the most famous actresses in the world for 50 years running before she died.And well before that book was written.And I’m not even that big a fan.You can’t just re-write history because you don’t like someone. I also think child abuse is very serious so her legacy deserves to be tainted.But give credit where it’s due.

Joan Crawford was one of the most photogenic women who ever stepped in front of a camera. Even when she was no longer young she was beautiful, even after she became ridiculous she was still magnetic.

All her features were large or dramatic, where Faye's are small or pinched. I never thought Faye was all that beautiful, I mean she was charismatic, but she had small eyes and a mean mouth.

I saw Rain on the telly not that long ago and was pleasantly surprised at how good and natural Crawford was.

Joan was only 5'3" - I always thought she was really tall.

Joan would never have consented to playing Mae West.

I love Joan Crawford. I think Joan's greatest role was playing Joan Crawford. She came from trash and tried to rise above it and probably went a little over the top in that pursuit. I love most of Joan's movies. The woman had her demons, but I think the biggest one of all was aging in a town where women weren't allowed to age.

R30 what does Mae West have to do with this thread?

There's a writer who's doing a bit of a blog about all Joan's films, for anyone interested. (No, it's not me, just read it the other day.)

r32 = a little homosexual boy (in the 1940s) who doesn't know my ouevre.

R34 oh wow, did not know about that. Thanks!

Faye’s rendition of Joan is an all-time iconic film performance.

Joan had a better profile and great cheekbones. That’s why Faye looked more like Lucille Ball than Joan

Joan, as a single woman, adopting children seems like an odd PR move. Why did she make herself into a single mother in the 1940s? Were Christina and Christopher considered underprivileged? Doesn't seem like it. They were babies, blonde/Caucasian, and, like it or not, could have easily been adopted.

Why was Joan not married?

This is a fun "You Must Remember This" podcast about Faye vs Joan.

Joan was more beautiful. It's a shame that most people only know her in her later roles. She had an amazing career, starting off in silent films with Lon Chaney. I think she was an underrated actress. She also demonstrated comic timing, if only in a few roles.

Slap!

HOW FUCKIN DARE YOU, YOU LITTLE HOMOSEXUAL BOYS! HOW FUCKIN DARE YOU COMPARE ME TO JOAN CRAWFORD!!! Just because I played her in a movie , people think I AM her, that I am actually crazy like her. It's so unfair, I've been type cast for life. I'm not crazy, I'm not hard to work with, I'm just trying to do my work. If I'm guilty of anything, it's being too sensitive and being too much of a perfectionist. I don't have bipolar, just a little melancholy sometimes when I can't be my best. SO FUCK YOU YOU GODDAMN LITTLE HOMOSEXUAL BOYS, THE LETTUCE IS TOO GOOD FOR YOU, YOU'RE GETTING THE CUP OF PISS!

R42 Faye, triggered and off her lithium.

Faye is too thin and not curvy/buxom enough for Mae, and doesn't sound enough like her.

Give em the shitbra, Faye!

Faye was into Actors Studio type stuff. Joan never was. So, Faye was more naturalistic (moreso in her early performances like Bonnie & Clyde) and therefore more believable. Though, both of them seemed to descend into camp madness as they aged.

However, Joan was a bigger star for a much longer time. Faye's career (the A-list part of it) started in 1967 and lasted till 1981. Whereas Joan's spanned several decades.

Faye was an actress. Joan was a movie star.

Well, Faye started out as an actress, anyway.

Oh, and as far as beauty, I don't think any actress is as stunning as Joan Crawford was in the '30s. Even Bette Davis said "I wish I were half as beautiful. I'll give her that."

That said, Faye was no slouch. Particularly when she was a model starting out. I hate to say it, but she did such a great job in Chinatown, I started to think she looked kind of inbred.

Both ladies looked hardened as they aged. Faye is a disaster now, with all the surgery.

R39 Thanks for that link. I just listened to the show and really enjoyed it, (although the narrator is a bit hard to take). Any other You Must Remember This podcasts you strongly recommend? (the list was too long and not user-friendly for me to peruse).

Thanks again!

[quote]Are you for real?

Yes, we are for real. Every Hollywood biographer and film critic would tell you the same thing. Joan would have been forgotten like a lot of stars of her era. If it hadn't been for the book she wouldn't even be a name today. She wasn't Bette Davis who took risks and took on the Hollywood system. Joan was a boring cunt. You will never hear an actor name Joan Crawford as an inspiration.

[quote]I love Joan Crawford. I think Joan's greatest role was playing Joan Crawford. She came from trash and tried to rise above it and probably went a little over the top in that pursuit. I love most of Joan's movies. The woman had her demons, but I think the biggest one of all was aging in a town where women weren't allowed to age.

She was a sadistic cunt, a child abuser. Why elder fags are willing to forgive this I'll never know. We literally found newspaper articles where she admitted to the abuse. She was a nutcase.

Her era? There were few stars of Joan's era, considered her era spanned the late 1920s to the late 1960s. She was not simply a star of any particular decade.

See Sudden Fear and get back to me.

Without Mommie Dearest, Joan Crawford would still be remembered today. It's sort of tricky, because I don't think a typical 24 year old would have heard of Bette Davis OR Joan Crawford at this point. That aside, Joan Crawford won an Oscar, and she was a fashion icon. I think without Mommie Dearest she'd be at least as remembered as Ingrid Bergman is at this point.

I actually think Baby Jane, and her association with Bette Davis helped both Crawford AND Davis be longer remembered than they might've been. I do find Joan to be endlessly fascinating. The duality of her persona. She was very judgmental and haughty, but was also a complete slut, doing things like fucking 15 year old Jackie Cooper. I love the story of her humiliating the diplomat's wife at a White House dinner in 1967, for not using her doily properly at dessert. And, of course, her 5 hour recording of her self help book is a complete hoot. She was very into the mechanics of trying to cover up her poor roots. She was TERRIFIED of anyone picking up on them.

Joan Crawford was a fascinating woman. I enjoyed watching her in films, but her off-screen life was every bit as interesting as any of her movie roles. Steven Spielberg bought her Oscar for 'Mildred Pierce': one of his first jobs in Hollywood was directing Joan in one of her last roles, in 'Night Gallery', and he was grateful to her for her professionalism and support.

As far as her abusing her daughter- I think she suffered from a mental illness. She was wrong to treat Christopher and Christina the way she did. That said, I know with my father, I could tell you about his and my relationship, and you'd be horrified at the way he treated me. I could tell you about our relationship another way, and you'd think it was fine. And, in neither case would I have to lie or leave anything out. Again, not to excuse Joan, she was wrong. But, it's really not as black or white as some here are making it out to be. Life is hard, and I suspect it was a blessing for her when she left.

While they both had Baby Jane, R55, Davis was Baby Jane and had the more memorable role. She also had All About Eve. Both those films have carried over into the 21st Century on a mainstream level.

Joan would be less remembered without Mommie Dearest. It helped immortalise her.

That's the way it is ...

Both "Mildred Pierce" and "The Women" have seen remakes in the modern era.

R56 that was interesting - thanks

Having remakes of your films doesn't make you more famous and signify your longevity, R59. It diminishes your star power because younger audiences don't associate you with your signature roles. And The Women was an ensemble (it wasn't popular because of Joan specifically) and the remake was a flop.

The fact that All About Eve hasn't been remade says volumes ...

Don't speak too soon. It was adapted for the stage not that long ago. Another TV or movie version may follow.

As it stands, like Citizen Kane, All About Eve has not been remade as a film or high-profile TV series, seven decades on.

And Davis had the more memorable role in Baby Jane.

She's simply more famous. And Joan's fame is partially bolstered by her daughter's book and Faye's fascinating and iconic portrayal of her.

Joan ain't even referenced in Vogue. Bette's full name is.

That's reality.

So is Joe Dimaggio's....

They didn't make "Feud: Bette Davis vs. Faye Dunaway," did they...?

Bette Davis is the most famous of the three, no contest. Joan owes part of her longevity to Faye. Reading comprehension is your friend.

A reminder: Bette was appearing on Broadway in The Night of the Iguana, when Joan visited her backstage, and pitched Whatever Happened to Baby Jane to her. This, despite their old rivalry over Franchot Tone (who Bette loved, but Joan married). The movie revived both stars' careers. Yet, when production began on Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte, Bette passive-aggressively harassed Joan to the point that she abandoned the production.

Bette Davis worked with both Joan and Faye. While she didn't like either of them, she always acknowledged Joan's professionalism, while she had the most scathing comments to make about Faye's lack thereof.

I actually like and admire both Joan and Faye (in a very detached way). But I think I would have liked to have known Joan: Faye, not so much (nor Bette, either, as long as she's part of the conversation).

This version of Joan is the spirit animal of the once-delightful and witty Data Lounge!

And this version of Faye-as-Joan is the current spirit animal of Data Lounge.

Faye’s makeup in MD was ridiculous...the chola brows, the attempt to widen her mouth with red lipstick and of course, the wigs were atrocious. Faye was a beautiful woman but the physical transformation to Joan Crawford was a massive misfire. And Joan WAS quite well known. If she wasn’t, Christina would never have written the book because no one would have cared.

Faye was certainly the better actress, but Joan was more of an icon. It’s hard to say who’s crazier. Joan was an abusive mother, but otherwise wasn’t generally regarded as a horror.

On the other hand, Faye wasn’t an abusive mother, but pretty much everyone who’s ever interacted with her says she’s a nightmare to be around.

The American Film Institute ranked the top 50 (25 men, 25 women) screen legends in Hollywood history.

Joan clocks in at number 10. One is Katharine Hepburn, two is Bette Davis. Faye is nowhere near the radar.

I love the dizzy queens who use Christina's book and that silly movie as some total indictment of Joan. Remember, we never heard Joan's side of the story. I'm not going to say that Joan wasn't an abuser or a very strict disciplinarian, because I wasn't there. But angry children with axes to grind or who are trying to sell a scandalous tell all do "sweeten" the story just a skosh to move more copies.

And while it's true that "All About Eve," a movie that I love by the way, has never been remade under the title "All About Eve" using the same characters, the story has been told and retold and told again on the big screen, on the small screen, on the stage and in literature. Which is probably why it hasn't been remade with that title. There is not a whole lot else you can do with that story, unlike with "Mildred Pierce".

R73 HBO’s Mildred Pierce was very good. But IMO it didn’t justify itself as twice as long as no more impactful than the original. Kind of like the Psycho remake and others. It was fine. But it really highlighted how good the original is by not outdoing it.

At least for me, there is something really impressive about a 1945 film that, without explaining itself too much, gives us the story of a single working mother who has a class complex, is driven to succeed in business and manages her shit despite a dead child and a parasitic child and parasitic men. I mean, consider that that was released at the same time Ricky Ricardo was spanking Lucy for disobedience!

If you understand her you love her.

Bette on Joan: condemning

More Bette on Joan

AND YET...of all people in Hollywood she would never, ever work with again—“one million dollars, Faye Dunaway. And everyone in Hollywood would say the same. She’s just tote-ally impossible. I don’t think we have time to go into allllllll the reasons.”

I preferred Joan Crawford in HUMORESQUE to her in MILDRED PIERCE. MP was Ann Blyth’s movie...she stole it from her. I never have understood why people love the latter film.

Because the pies WERE enough.

Joan was a beautiful woman. And Like many beautiful women, she had a tough time with aging and being ignored and replaced by younger and prettier women. Joan liked being a movie star and all that entailed. She didn't like being ignored and probably suffered as her sex appeal waned. Bette didn't care. She was never pretty and didn't have sex appeal, so she had to approach her career much differently than Joan did. Bette took out an ad in the trades looking for work. She started doing episodics like Perry Mason and didn't care. You just know that it gutted Joan to have to do something like Trog or move to TV shows.

Bette was better than pretty. She was distinctive looking, which is one of the reasons she’s unforgettable. Joan, too. Faye was very pretty when she was young, and I think that actually probably was a liability in a certain sense as much as it was an advantage in being cast.

Faye was a far better actress than Joan, one of the best actresses of her generation. As far as beauty, nobody can compete with Joan in the 1930s. But Faye at her peak was the best looking blonde ever. And I would argue more iconic to people today. "No More Wire Hangers" and "She's my sister, my daughter" are lines that even some younger movie buffs today know. You can't say the same about Joan.

"Life is hard, and I suspect it was a blessing for her when she left. "

Joan wasn't meant to be old. Bette was meant to be an old woman with no fucks left to give, but if Joan couldn't be glamorous, life had no meaning for her!

Her looks lasted an amazingly long time, even into her sixties. I mean in "Strait Jacket", once she took off the fright wigs and stopped trying to look young, the camera still loved her. The movie camera was Joan's real life partner, when the camera no longer loved her she was done with life. It's just not like that for real actors.

Joan Crawford in her sixties.

Bette wasn’t a great beauty, but she was attractive. Few if any of the Golden Age film queens were beautiful. But they were at the very least, photogenic and had presence onscreen.

[quote] And while it's true that "All About Eve," a movie that I love by the way, has never been remade under the title "All About Eve" ... the story has been told and retold and told again on the big screen, on the small screen, on the stage and in literature.

The plot of "All About Eve" is a very basic plot: "Conniving underling eclipses mentor." Nothing wrong with that. ("Stranger comes to town" would be another basic plot.)

I watched "Eve" for the first time maybe 15 years ago. I was surprised that there was no twist on the plot at all. Star-studded, yes. But disappointing that there was very little to make the plot unique.

R87, not to mention it is very dull, visually speaking. That's a big reason I think Sunset Boulevard has aged better.

"In 1946, Joan Crawford won an Oscar for Mildred Pierce after leaving her home of nearly 20 years, MGM. In this video I explain the evolution of her persona, her relationship to the studio system, and why her Oscar is a great comeback story. "

Sudden Fear (1952) - at the end of the film as she walks away alone and hurt, but with her head held high, her eyes say so much - Ms Crawford is a brilliant symbol of strength and vulnerability in conflict with each other, love her, she remains untouchable.

MARY!!!!!!

Joan Crawford has been dead for 43 years now, and there's a thread on her every other week. I'd say she's still very relevant today.

Also, the photo of Crawford at R67, is one of my favorite photos of Crawford. It epitomizes Movie Stardom with her autographing those oversized photos for her fans. That photo is the stuff dreams are made of in Tinseltown.

Joan Crawford has a long face. She has more of a womanly face than a girlish face. Also, the hairstyles she wore seem really matronly to me.

If she were an actress today, it would be interesting to see what she would look like with different hairstyles and makeup.

[quote] and there's a thread on her every other week. I'd say she's still very relevant today.

That doesn't make sense--what is popular on this forum is not necessarily popular or relevant to the average person out there.

Me vs Faye? It’s like comparing Old Dutch Cleanser to that cheap dusty grit you get at the 99¢ Store.

[94]Yeah with all due respect,who gives a fuck what is popular with the “average” person out there?In this Kardashian age the average person is probably not reading Proust or listening to Billie Holiday either.That doesn’t mean they are not timeless artists who have stood the test of time.Or that they should be tossed on the scrap heap. There are better ways to judge art-or pop culture for that matter-than what or who is still known by the average attention-rattled Tik Tok millennial.

Joan Crawford was a huge movie-star for decades,by anyone’s reasonable definition of the term.She is remembered today,for good and bad,by anyone with even the merest grasp of old Hollywood.End of story.

R96 Well stated.

I'm a 31 year old millennial by the way, and I've always loved old Hollywood. If you saw the stuff I follow on Twitter, then you'd get it. TCM and all things old Hollywood is a God send for me.

I'm not really to crazy about what's going on today in Hollywood. I watch, but I'm not really impressed. Everyone I'm a fan of is pretty much dead or on their way out the door unfortunately.

Joan was more beautiful.

Faye trying to replicate the look.

R99 LOL

Joan and Miles Heizer have (had) the same nose.

Joan Crawford was the quintessential movie star, and a beauty icon. She could act, too, but that wasn't her essential quality of just being Joan.

Faye Dunaway is also a beauty, and a good actress, but not an icon of any kind.

Excuse you. Faye is a DL icon.

r99 reminds me of a botched restoration attempt of r98. No disrespect to FD, I'm sure that was the intention, they weren't trying to make Joan look good, after all.

"reminds me", sorry that makes no sense, lack of sleep! -- *"makes me think of"

Joan Crawford has a bit of a horse face, IMO.

Joan had a lot of charm and above all an incredible charisma. Faye was gorgeous but she had zero charisma. Both talented

I would love it if they one day did a serious film adaption of Mommie Dearest that isn't over the top or campy.

Faye is the remake of Joan.

Joan was exquisite with the right brow.

[quote] Joan Crawford has been dead for 43 years now, and there's a thread on her every other week. I'd say she's still very relevant today.

Uh, honey, DL’s average is 65+ white fat gay men.

Who had more memorable movies?

HAPPY BIRTHDAY JOAN!

R112, Faye, easily. Chinatown, Bonnie and Clyde, Network (to a lesser degree) and Mommie Dearest are still talked about today.

But I had Posessed, The Women, Mildred Pierce, Humoresque, Sudden Fear, Johnny Guitar, Torch Song, Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? and so many other classic films. I only did Berserk and Trog for fun.

Grand Hotel?

Ok, Joan had Mildred Pierce, Johnny Guitar and Whatever Happened to Baby Jane. But I would say Chinatown, Bonnie and Clyde and Mommie Dearest trump those.

Joan was beautiful in her younger days

Okay, I’m listening. Let’s hear more about Joan Crawford. Go ahead, you little fucks...

See this bitch? She’s screaming because I caught her husband talking about Joan Crawford, so I pushed him out the window and now he’s dead.

Mark my words, Angelina Jolie is going to be the next Joan or Faye.

Charismatic unstable narcissist movie star, who's already well advanced on her journey from Young Talent to Camp Monster. And she knows it, the "Maleficent" films were a genuine Camp Monster role that would have been offered to Faye 30-40 years earlier.

R121, at least Faye churned out a few classics before her star went dead. Angelina doesn't have any movies that will be remembered in even 10 years, assuming she's still famous by then.

Loved Faye Dunaway in the Thomas Crown Affair chess scene (with Steve McQueen). The hair, the nude backless dress, nude nails, makeup, etc. Beautiful, IMO.

I do think FD is a good actress. She can act with just her eyes & face, doesn't have to speak. She also doesn't even have to contort her features that much to "express" something (except in Mommie Dearest). In Chinatown, her demeanor was flat most of the time, but there was still something behind the eyes.

She’ll always be Selena to me!

She was ROBBED of the Oscar!!!!

IMO, both were stunning beauties at their peak. One is tiny, curvy and has more chiseled facial features and stunningly perfect profile - while the other was more tall, lean and modelesque with softer (yet still strikingly exotic) facial features. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Both perfect in different ways. Joan is certainly more iconic and had one Hell of a long career. Faye was perhaps the greatest actress of the late 1960's to the end of the 1970's and then forever faded into oblivion. Both won an Oscar. I just do not see the need to compare the two. Bette was never a beauty at all, but was a great (if not campy) actress and also a favorite of mine. My early 20's family members and acquaintances would likely not be very familiar with any of the 3. Joan and Bette are FAR better known than most of their contemporaries however.

I love Betty and I think they both wanted to be good mothers. Unfortunately, the role models they used were film characters not real people. Bette came from a New England background and Joan learned her tricks the hard way. She obviously observed well bred people over the years and learned which fork to use. The adopted children of Joan were like puppets. Bette spoiled her daughter BJ, who later wrote a scathing book about her.I'll read what's here and do another post if I think of some interesting tidbits of gossip.

“IMO, both were stunning beauties at their peak. One is tiny, curvy and has more chiseled facial features and stunningly perfect profile - while the other was more tall, lean and modelesque with softer (yet still strikingly exotic) facial features. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Both perfect in different ways. Joan is certainly more iconic and had one Hell of a long career. Faye was perhaps the greatest actress of the late 1960's to the end of the 1970's and then forever faded into oblivion. Both won an Oscar.”

...and then...

“I just do not see the need to compare the two.”

Ha.

If Faye can do this to an egg......

Joan Crawford was decent in a small handful of films, but otherwise a limited, mechanical actress. She certainly photographed well, and knew how to sell her style.

Faye Dunaway was able to reveal emotion more easily and had a broader range (though it was still relatively narrow.) But her work in CHINATOWN, for example, is something Crawford could never even [italic]begin [/italic]to approach. When she rehearses a scene from MILDRED PIERCE in MOMMIE DEAREST, critic Pauline Kael noted, “You’re aware of an enormous difference; this is Mildred with a real actress in the part.”

R129, I don't think Faye's range is narrow. I do think she was one of the best actresses of her generation. And at her peak, she was stunning. It's too bad she's possibly the biggest diva in the history of Hollywood.

R130 Faye was very good, but I would agree, she didn't have a very broad range.

"Of all the actresses, to me, only Faye Dunaway has the talent and the class and the courage it takes to make a real star."- Joan Crawford

R131, ahhh yes, the irony of that quote lol.

R131, did you see the Inside the Actors Studio episode with Faye Dunaway? She was aware of the quote and she actually came off as very normal during the episode.

R133 I think she will only answer certain questions about Mommie Dearest and she probably liked and respected Lipton. She’s given the same answers about the movie in various interviews. Ask her about any of the camp aspects, she will shut you down fast or leave.

A professional response to r129 's Kael quote, from page 53 of 'Rule of Thumb: Ebert at the Movies' by Todd Rendleman:

"This quick swipe points to a larger, regrettable weakness: a failure to resist expressing a familiar prejudice. What's more, it's wrong - or at the very least, unsupported by argument. Kael mentions Crawford's movies in the 40s and 50s, "when her falseness was so regal that you couldn't cut through it." But the criticism is directed at Mildred Pierce, not Johnny Guitar, so even this statement requires greater precision. The glory of Crawford's Mildred Pierce is the melding of her M-G-M glamour with the gutsy determination and world weariness that marked her arrival at Warner Brothers. Mildred Pierce heralded Crawford's hard-earned confidence as an actor, and her stylish intensity is all the more vivid because of her underplaying - exactly what Kael misses."

Comments closed before I could post the damn thing!

[quote] Ask her about any of the camp aspects, she will shut you down fast or leave.

She has said that the director needed to reign the movie in to make it more serious but he didn't. I think she's right, that does fall on the director. But I actually do think Mommie Dearest gets sadder on repeated viewings.

I always found it so odd that Joan's other two children denied any abuse and seemed well-loved by her. Perhaps, she'd found the error of her ways and become a better mother over the years. It's not unheard of. I always felt bad for Joan. You got the impression that she had to fight for everything and she's a classic case of why using beauty and glamour will only get you so far before you reach a glass ceiling and you'll have to use everything you can to chip away at it once that time comes.

Someone like Bette Davis was never going to be starving for work. It might not have always been great work, but she was never going to not be acting on screen or on stage. She was the true talent and magnificent to watch, despite not being a raving beauty like Crawford was.

I thought the best scene in Feud was when both women ask one another what it was like to be beautiful/talented and they both respond that it was wonderful, but it was never enough. I found that very moving. We always want to be something more than what we are. Every comedian wants to be taken seriously, every dramatic actor wants to be funny, every non-singer wants to sing, every pretty person wants to be known as a great actor, etc. It's never enough.

R137 It’s never enough. That’s human nature. Let’s go back to the 1500s, when Shakespeare gave us this in Richard II:

“Thus play I in one person many people,

And none contented. Sometimes am I king;

Then treasons make me wish myself a beggar,

And so I am. Then crushing penury

Persuades me I was better when a king;

Then am I king’d again, and by and by

Think that I am unking’d by Bolingbrook,

And straight am nothing. But what e’er I be,

Nor I, nor any man that but man is,

With nothing shall be pleas’d, till he be eas’d

With being nothing.”

It’s part of the human condition. If you’re the king, then the responsibilities and the risk of losing is overwhelming and all you want is to be poor and anonymous with no troubles. Then if you get that wish, you realize how much having nothing sucks and you want to be king again—and then you get it and can’t live with it. And wherever you are, goes the rest of the monologue I didn’t include here, you are harassed by “people” in your world, who are really your own thoughts, which are urgent, grandiose, lofty, self-important, and mostly die their own sad little deaths because they don’t have a leg to stand on.

Joan was the king of beauty. Bette was the queen of talent. Neither had it all. And both of them always felt slighted by the world. (As we all do.)

We always talk about Joan versus Bette, but what about their other feuds and rivalries. Who else did Joan and Bette hate and who hated them?

Joan hated Norma Shearer. She felt Norma "slept with the Boss" to get parts. She was married to Irving Thalberg, who cast her in a lot of roles Joan wanted. She hated Marylin Monroe. Crawford was aging by the time Marylin was on the rise. Joan would go to a party and make a grand entrance, then MM would walk in and everyone would go nuts. Joan hated being upstaged! And she also hated up-and-coming Raquel Welch. Once again, Raquel's stunning, youthful looks were seen as a threat.

Joan always overacted. She just wasn’t a good actress.

Joan hated me.

This thread is DL at its best.

[quote]1953.Taylor, Elizabeth. (2/27/32 - 3/23/11) Taylor made her film debut for Universal in 1942 and the next year was signed to MGM, whose 1944 National Velvet made her a star. By 1953, when she and Joan met while Joan was filming Torch Song with Liz-Husband Number 2 Michael Wilding, Taylor had graduated to adult roles, having appeared in 1950's Father of the Bride and 1951's much darker A Place in the Sun.

[quote]Apparently all was not calm between the two during the filming of Torch: A frequent visitor to the set, Liz snubbed Joan one day by not saying "hello"; Joan then accosted publicity man Dore Freeman and said "You tell that little bitch never to walk in here without acknowledging me. I want you to teach her some manners." (LW) Joan also allegedly suggested to Wilding that he put a harness on his wife. Liz later told reporters that her husband was very fortunate to be playing a blind man in his first American film: "That way he doesn't have to look at Joan Crawford throughout the entire movie." (DF)

Joan vs Elizabeth. I read elsewhere that Joan had been very critical of Elizabeth's acting skills, but later acknowledged that she had frown into a fine young actress.

And how she grew.

I don’t know why Joan was so upset? A wife is supposed to sleep with her husband. Joan was jealous of Norma and later Greer Garson who became Norma’s successes at MGM.

Bette hated Miriam Hopkins and was jealous of actresses that starred on Broadway in a play and then we’re given the opportunity to recreate the role on the screen. She felt it wasn’t fair because they had so much time to perfect their performance; Judy Holiday in “Born Yesterday” and Bancroft in “The Miracle Worker”.

R146 brings up names that perfectly provide context to just how much more iconic and relevant Joan and Bette remain today in comparison to their contemporaries. Norma Shearer, Greer Garson, Miriam Hopkins, Judy Holiday, etc. - talk about forgotten names! Complete obscurity is an understatement.

Yeah, well, R146, I think Joan was just jealous of other actresses, period! Was she one of those women who have no female friends, and who only think of other women as competition?

I bet Faye is the same, no female friends (and same for Angelina Jolie). Bette Davis was friends with Olivia de Havilland and I'd bet she had other female friends, she could be a mega-cunt, but she did know the worth of her talent and didn't have to be as insecure as the aging beauties.

R148, no, Joan had female friends. She was friends with Stanwyck.

Here we go again with THIS bullshit.

I love Faye AND Joan

It's only mutually exclusive to the retarded.