Katherine Hepburn is over-rated.

Disagree. She had some wonderful moments in films like Bringing Up Baby, Philadelphia Story, Desk Set, Adam's Rib and African Queen. Maybe she played herself - the icy at times eccentric New England Blue Blood - but she always brought a warm humanity to her roles. Now Meryl Streep I think is average. I can "see" her acting and for that reason find her next to unwatchable.

I agree, OP. I would like to have slapped her across the face mid lock-jawed sentence. I’ve never seen her have any range. She can’t leave her superior body and slip into anyone else’s. She is all about being grand and proud.

You're right, OP.

I've always found the praise she receives homophobic too.

Katherine Hepburn is under-"a"ted. It's Katharine.

Blaspheemer.

I hate alternative spellings in names.

OP is right to spell it properly.

Her parents were wrong.

Kathryn. Catherine. Everybody's wrong but R6.

Nope. Name's for the most part have established spellings. You'll note OP assumed it was with an E not with a C.

Tell Barbra Streisand.

I SHOULD HAVE BEEN NUMBER ONE !!!!!!!

History has decided, Bette.

You are now.

And Hepburn's rolling in her grave.

This is a Master class in film acting...

She's really bad in that scene. The whole performance is far too knowing.

I loved her in "Bringing up Baby," but at other times in other movies she sets my teeth on edge. Sometimes her accent seems like a parody of a New England accent.

I don't like her, but lots of people do. I give Hepburn great credit for manufacturing and maintaining that phony image to the very end. People don't only believe it - they admire it.

Well, it was like this....

Laurence Olivier once said that being a movie actor is for the most part showing up when you're supposed to and saying your lines. All else is gravy.

So what's remarkable about most movie actors is how big and bold, how distinctive their personalities are. And Kate was quite a character.

I’m so underrated I’m underground!

You also have to hit your marks, r17.

Well, it was like this...

And misspelled. Asshole!

That "she played the same character over and over again" argument is so dumb. What in the world did her performances in Long Day's Journey Into Night, The Lion in Winter, Summertime, Alice Adams, Adam's Rib...have in common?! Not much. Sure, she had certain tics and mannerisms you can spot in all of her films but I still think she showed great versatilty throughout her career (even if she started phoning it in in later years).

She was an icon.

So beautiful and riveting to watch on the screen.

Long Day's Journey Into Night was amazing. It didn't have any over the over-the-top of the over-the-top Suddenly, Last Summer.

Quite, r19.

[quote]What in the world did her performances in Long Day's Journey Into Night, The Lion in Winter, Summertime, Alice Adams, Adam's Rib...have in common?! Not much. Sure, she had certain tics and mannerisms you can spot in all of her films but I still think she showed great versatilty throughout her career

This is an oxymoron.

[quote]You also have to hit your marks

And people with cellphones!

She was such a grotesque parody of a lesbian.

A gay man who was as stereotypical as she was would never have had a career like hers.

I am not really a fan of old Hollywood films. Just not my bag, but I love Hepburn. She was a sassy old dyke.

Yes, she had her act that endeared her to some.

I prefer the real actresses of the time. Davis being the greatest.

Bette Davis has her bag of tricks, too.

Most of the time did.

But Hepburn's bag of tricks was all there was to her.

All golden age Hollywood actors come across to today's audiences as mannered and phony. Even in their hay day Hepburn , Wayne, Davis were viewd as "personalities" that played characters. You went to see a Katherine Hepburn film because you liked Kate Hepburn not because you cared about the story arc. They appear dated today because their type of "personality" is passe. In 50 years who will be paying to see a Meryl Streep film?

True, R32. But Hepburn's (few) fans don't like to admit that.

I think she's amazing in Breakfast at Tiffany's.

R34 You're the best!

I think she was very good, sometimes great. The African Queen comes to mind. She was terrific in The Philadelphia story. But certainly overrated. I don't think she comes close to Bette Davis 's baby Jane or even Margo Channing. Certainly not to Leigh's Mrs Stone, or Shop of fools. She would have been a terrible Scarlett O' hara. But she had that screen presence and personnality. By her own admission when she started she didn't care about acting. She just wanted to be famous. I am quite put off by her now, but when she was alive and working in the Upper circles of stardom, I wrote to her and she sent me a lovely answer, so I believe that she was a lovely woman IRL. I don't believe a word of Scotty Bowers. Hooking up with Betty Page. Please.

Hell, I can't figure out who's been paying to see Meryl Streep films in THIS era, R32.

R32 prefers flat wooden blanks with too much plastic surgery.

Golden Age movie acting IS real acting, both then and now. If current audiences prefer low-talent trash heaps, then that's their fault for their lack of imagination.

[quote]Leigh's Mrs Stone, or Shop of fools.

R36 I'm loving Shop of Fools. This is a movie waiting to be made!

R37, I know it's not a popular opinion but miss Streep was very bad I every movie I saw her in, except the French lieutenant 's woman. I don't get the hype. She was competent in out of Africa, the devil wears prada,' 'marvin' s room (Keaton was far superior) nothing more, and ATROCIOUS in' 'Julia and Julia' ',' 'it's complicated' ', mamma mia', and ' august osage county' and the bunch of crap my ex wife forced me to sit through

The more I think about how many "improvements" have been made to film since the end of the 1960s, the more I realize that most of them are technical in nature and very few, if any, are artistic in nature. Not being subjected to Production Code censorship is just not enough to make a movie good. Just including minorities just for the sake of having them there is pandering and condescending if they're not there to actually do stuff that actually matters to the story. Constant rapid-fire cuts are a lazy way of faking the illusion of something actually happening and disguising the fact that you don't know a damn thing about how to direct actors.

From another thread:

"Does anyone remember the old IMDb boards? Movie Awards in particular?

There was an intense hatred of Streep on that one particular board. This is common. Boards have a beehive like mentality. We see this on DL with Susan Sarandon. Nobody dares speak out, not even, necessarily, in her defense, but about how ridiculous the whole idea is that she's responsible for Trump (if every pitiful few Jill Stein voters had voted for Hillary she still would have lost).

So on Movie Awards, in their efforts to denigrate Streep they would often attempt to elevate actresses they saw as competition to her. And so people like Viola Davis, Jessica Lange, Jennifer Lawrence, K Hepburn, Julie Andrews (whom the board once voted the BA of 1982), Christine Baranski, Sandra Bullock, Cate Blanchett, and others were often sort of artificially beloved by the board, yet they never really cared for them.

When any of them had their own threads they got little attention and most of the posts were about how they were so, so better than Streep. Hating Streep was the goal, they were just tools -- but if you weren't familiar with the board you mightn't realize that.

I bring this up because a similar thing was happening on Datalounge at the same time. I know of at least one poster who posted on both and I'm sure they shared more.

Anyway, I'm sure this is the case regarding Susan Sarandon on DL -- she was never REALLY liked (which is kinda a shame) -- but explains why DL was so quick to turn on her."

Tasteful friends.....

The calla lilies are in bloom again

OP I completely agree! Never understood what was so great about this bitch. She played the same character in every movie. And someone should have slapped off that ugly scowl she always had on her face. Total overrated cunt.

Her huge Connecticut beach mansion was gorgeous. Davis never owned a house that nice. And Crawford was reduced to a middling (though tastefully appointed) apartment by the end.

R2 OMG I wrote practically the same thing and I hadn’t even read you post until after I replied to the thread! Glad someone else feels the same way.

The hatred here for both the Hepburns is fucking sickening.

If she were alive today, she'd probably have a portmanteau, like ScarJo or JLo. What would it be? Kah-Hep? That sounds faintly pharaonic.

Disliking old-time movie actresses is fucking sickening.

KHunt

Here is a video of the old cunt being a cunt bitching about a table and the color of the carpet on the set where she was getting ready to do an interview.

I would have just said bitch, go home and get over yourself.

OP, she was a great movie star. Acting was incidental to that goal. The acting demands of a particular role are not something she would let get in the way of her stardom.

That's because you're a misogynist, R53.

[quote]Disliking old-time movie actresses is fucking sickening.

Sorry gramps. Us younger gays aren’t into worshipping divas from 70 years ago, especially if they were bitches.

I PLAYED HER AND I WAS GREAT BUT THEY KEPT GIVING ME GREY WIGS, GREY, I AM A FUCKING ICON OF STYLE AND BEAUTY, I AM BEAUTIFUL WHY COULDN'T THEY SEE THAT ! WHY COULDN'T THRY GIVE ME THE RESPECT THAT I GET FROM STRANGERS IN THE STREETS. AND THAT LITTLE HOMOSEXUAL BOY KEPT GIVING ME GREY WIGS. I PLUCKED THEM. I P'UCKED THEM ALL. I THREW LETTUCE AT THEM. I MADE THEM SCRUB MY DRESSING ROOM ON THEIR KNEES. I SLAPPED THEIR STUPID FACES. IIIIIIII AAAAAAAAAMM AAAAA STAAAAAR

Lesbians love her.

[quote]That's because you're a misogynist, [R53].

I hate that bullshit excuse that women like to use to get away with being an asshole. Calling a spade a spade does not make someone misogynist.

And now you double down on the racial slurs, R59. Sorry I interrupted your cross-burning.

R56, you have no sense of history and perspective. If it wasn't for those so-called "bitches," you'd still be in the closet today.

It was not HER house. It was her parent's. The doctor Hepburn was a clinic head doctor, and madame Houghton was quite well-off. She was living in it part time with her brothers and sister. One of her brothers occupied the second floor. Her house was a petite house on turtle Bay,, NYC.

The 1994 TV-movie she was in called [italic]This Can't Be Love[/italic], produced by the same people who made [italic]Stone Pillow[/italic] for Lucille Ball, also has Jason Bateman in his underwear at age 25. That is literally the first shot of the movie after the opening credits. And there's a scene with Michael Feinstein in it. Do they know their target audience or what?

Isabel Sanford tells this story about Katharine

I came to the set and she pushes past everyone and confronts me, "Marcus said you were taking a bus to the studio"

I replied, "Well I don't have a car and taxis are very expensive."

She looked at me for a second, pushed right past me yelling "Spence, Isabel is taking a bus to the studio"

Less than an hour later the accountant came up to me and told me I should take a taxi to the studio everyday and bring the receipt to the cashier and get reimbursed.

R60 Seek help you freak. Where the hell are their racial slurs in that post?

Glad that Isabel was movin' on up even back then!

I believe that Katharine is very fine in some of her film roles, and in others she could be mannered and overbearing.

Bette Davis could be great, though she had certain mannerisms which could creep in to some of her performances, too.

Barbara Stanwyck (and Irene Dunne who could sing too) had the most range.

Ta op. She was never leading lady material, from lack of acting chops to lack of looks and figure. She was 2nd banana at best.

She inherited it, R62. And did live in it in her later years.

She wanted to be a Star, r54, but the acting was in no way incidental. She's the only Golden Age Screen Goddess that performed Shakespeare on stage....

[quote]She was never leading lady material, from lack of acting chops to lack of looks and figure. She was 2nd banana at best.

Her very long and successful career says otherwise.

R69 ahem.....

It would be K-Hep, r50.

R53 ...and wanting to spread her legs. She WISHED she had balls.

R73 = homophobe

R65 and R60, a history of the saying is below. It is not racist, however, once spade began to be used as an ethnic slur for a black man, it began to be avoided. So, R60, you're wrong, but R65, that's where he's coming from. Fight nicely, children.

Can someone explain the Cynthia McFadden link to me? I always found that bizarre.

Only professional victimizers use the phrase "professional victim."

My audiences thought I was a grande artiste.

I just watched The Glass Menagerie dvd with Miss H and a young, young Sam Waterston. Oh my goodness (clutch my pearls) Sam is wonderful; she's all cheekbones and elbows.

And you were, Apolonia....

Well, it really wasn't the right role for her, r79. And there are criticisms of the other TV Amandas as well, i.e. Booth and Woodward. We'll not speak of Gertie. Has there ever been a universally well received performance of that role on film?

Golden Age acting is very mannered, artificial, and hammy when viewed today.

Yes, it is entertaining, but it is not considered good acting anymore.

That's like saying a certain period of painting style (i.e. Impressionism) is no longer good painting, r82.

R82 Agree. Modern 21st century acting must be subtle,nuanced and natural.

R84 is just projecting the bad acting of modern movies onto the classics.

I meant R82. Sorry, R84.

Then acting is a failed art form.

Doctor, cut these evil lies from OP's brain.

We all act. We act everyday to get through the day. Amazing that they give awards to people who do it in front of a camera.

At least she never degraded herself the way Bette Davis and Joan Crawford did in some of their later movies.

[quote]That's like saying a certain period of painting style (i.e. Impressionism) is no longer good painting

Not necessarily true. If your standard is authentically replicating actual human emotions, as was the goal of late 20th-century "good" acting, then not all attempts are fungible with earlier styles of acting.

If your standard is to be entertaining in a current style, then you are right.

David Lean beat some (but not all) of her shtick out of her in SUMMERTIME (55). It's my fave of her performances.

She basically played herself in THE PHILADELPHIA STORY, so she had some self-irony in the early days, especially after RKO dumped her in 1938, calling her "box office poison."

Most art forms do not have to contend with the advent of something as revolutionary as the moving picture camera and projector. That changed everything. The writing. The acting. The directing.

Then in 1927, 30 years or so later, sound was introduced and it all changed again in earth shaking ways. Much of what had been developed over several decades was tossed out and everyone started again.

It took decades for all these massive changes to be assimilated in the culture and in the various art forms that comprise film production. If you are thinking of acting as an art form, remember that it went on one general way for several thousand years and then, with the flick of a switch, everything changed. Everyone was busy reinventing everything. There was no standard for any of them to employ for a long, long, time.

Eventually, the camera bifurcated the art form. What is necessary on stage, often has no place on film. What is crucial to film, won't be seen or heard on stage. And, of course, the art form had to contend with that bifurcation, too. Of course, all of this works out differently in the various countries around the world and their various cultures.

Acting is just not any one thing or done any one way. No one, not even a Data Lounger in a caftan, can assess it all expertly.

Do you think Cate Blanchett got her right in [italic]The Aviator[/italic]?

R94 Rich Little schtick . Oscar guaranteed.

R66 Thank you for pointing that out about Stanwyck. For me, the four all time great veteran stars (those who continued working irregardless) are in order: Davis, Crawford, Stanwyck & Hepburn. Barbara is my favorite of the four, but she is probably the least talked about of the four. Davis and Crawford are tied together through one movie and a supposed "Feud". Kate took periods of time off the screen and is the only one to return to Broadway on a fairly regular basis (or at least the stage).

Once Kate got out of her MGM contract, the old spinster period for her began (with "The African Queen"). She became pretty much the same in every film after that, but few of those films are duds. ("The Iron Petticoat" is very difficult to get through!) She knew she was more of a personality in these kinds of films than an actress, but she enjoyed that aura about her career. I knew writer Jim Prideaux and he told me that while she could be overbearing, a lot of that was an act. One on one, she was down to earth and no-nonsense, but knew with more than a few people watching her, she needed to have that cantankerous persona that people assumed her to be all the time.

Someone I knew once wrote to her for an autograph, and he got a letter back from her telling him why she didn't sign autographs, yet the letter was indeed signed in blue ink. She knew deep down that it kept people talking about her and it goes along with her desire for fame. My favorite story about her being confronted by an autograph seeker is the person telling her, "We made you a star!" to which she replied, "Like hell you did!" Had she been a pushover and signed for every pest who confronted her, I doubt we'd be talking about her other than her films today.

M-G-M was a basket case without Louis B. Mayer, and it got worse after Dore Schary left. That it still exists in any form is a miracle.

Love love love love loved Katharine Hepburn in The Lion in Winter.

I see what you did there OP, claim KathArine Hepburn was over rated to stir up controversy. She is probably your favorite actress, you aren't fooling anyone. You love love love love loved her too.

Don't confuse being a favorite with quality.

It's possible to love Taco Bell. But it isn't quality food. That you love something, is not proof of the thing's quality. It could just as easily be proof of your own poor taste.

I saw the musical version of "The Time of the Cuckoo"/"Summertime" ("Do I Hear a Waltz?") on stage, and while it is a difficult show to completely love, I am still entranced by it. The 2001 Pasadena production w/Alyson Reed (and Ms. Carol Lawrence as the hotel proprietor) was absolutely lovely and is fortunately on CD. The Encores production with Melissa Errico and Karen Ziemba was also very well staged, and both ladies were terrific.

Other Hepburn movies that have been musicalized: "Little Women", "Holiday" (as "Happy New Year!"); "The Philadelphia Story" (as the film and stage musical "High Society"); "Woman of the Year" (with Hepburn's pal Lauren Bacall) and "The Rainmaker" (as "110 in the Shade"). Maggie Smith's version of Violet Venable in "Suddenly Last Summer" for PBS is quite different than Kate's.

And yet when she did musical theatre, this was the result:

R82 "I am big! It's the pictures that got small!!" - Norma Desmond, Sunset Boulevard

It's problematic to compare cultural norms and productions - Noh or Kabuki could be downright surreal and laughable to a modern westerner asked to think of those perfomances as "acting." Yet in Japanese culture the skills of certain "actors", indeed lineages of "acting families" are highly valued. Classical Greek theater (and no one, by definition, can say the Greek tragedies were not "drama" that needed human representation) had a style of presentation and declamation that would be completely off the chairs historic melodrama by "method" actors today. The golden age of Hollywood presented actors who were iconic images of human needs, failures and aspirations. Today, with so many moving images of faces and bodies coming at us second by second, the human brain doesn't even see acting the same way.

Dykes of a feather.

"All golden age Hollywood actors come across to today's audiences as mannered and phony"

EXCUSE ME???

- Miss Barbara Stanwyck

Someone beat me to it, but I just had to point it out

Norma Desmond was right then and is even more right now. The more movies from the 1930s and 1940s I watch, the less impressed I am with postwar cinema of any nation.

She ate pussy like a champ.

I prefer Audrey. I know she didn't have the pedigree of her mother, but she was charming. Shame they didn't make movies together, like Maureen O'sulivan and Mia Farrow.

Either of them are preferable to Julie Andrews, who is diabetes in human form.

Oh, my. Oh, dear!

Audrey was not as great as her mom, but she was a handsome woman, taking after her Dad, Tallulah Bankhead.

Bette Davis had much more range as an actress.

Tallulah Bankhead wasn't a man, fool R110.

Close enough ^

Go back to hell where you belong Hattie McDaniel. There IS NO GOD.

[Quote] Bette Davis had much more range as an actress.

As opposed to her range as an opera singer ?

Miss Hepburn ran the whole gamut of emotions—from A to B.

[quote]There IS NO GOD.

Don't you think I tried to tell her?

I still can't believe that she was a dyke. There weren't ANY rumors before the Scott Bowers book. She had affairs with lots of famous men.

You don't understand Butterfly. THEY NOMINATED ME IN THE SUPPORTING CATEGORY. I WAS A LEAD. AND THE I LOST. I LOST. THEY KNEW I WASN'T A SUPPORTING ACTRESS SO THEY VOTED FOR THE NEGRO.

Really? What men did she have affairs with?

[quote]I still can't believe that she was a dyke. There weren't ANY rumors before the Scott Bowers book.

Fiddle-dee-dee, R119! You won two Oscars after GWTW and buried everyone else from it, so why are you still complaining?

As opposed to other actresses r115.

"I still can't believe that she was a dyke. There weren't ANY rumors before the Scott Bowers book"

R118, did you just hatch from an egg?

i think Bette Davis >>>>> KH

"I rally don't believe all this. I rally don't....."

Please. Helen Keller could tell she was a dyke.

Please. Helen Keller could tell she was a dyke.

R128 Why? Was she fingering Kate with one hand and moaning with the other?

Please! BIG muff diver.

Closeted people are usually the most miserable so it’s no surprise she was such a nasty mean bitch.

R69 please reference VIVIEN LEIGH

R67 for being a second banana, she has 4 BEST ACTRESS OSCARS . YOU ARE A MORON.

R90, DAVIS AND CRAWFORD HAD BILLS TO PAY. MS . HEPBURN CAME FROM MONEY AND THOSE DYKE HIPS BORE NO KIDDIES .

R96 i Love You!

R56, unless you're "younger" as in under 10, might we suggest that you go back to school to learn basic English grammar?

The Wikipedia article on KH as a picture of eldest brother Tom, who hanged himself in 1921 aged 15. He was a cute twink. The family maintained it was "an experiment gone wrong."

It was a defining moment in her life.

[quote]DAVIS AND CRAWFORD HAD BILLS TO PAY. MS . HEPBURN CAME FROM MONEY AND THOSE DYKE HIPS BORE NO KIDDIES .

When you see how Bette and Joan's kids turned out, that may be for the best.

Penis free zone.

Kate adored gefilte fish.

Olivia de Havilland got her break by appearing in Shakespeare: she played Hermia in the Max Reinhardt production of "A Midsummer Night's Dream" in Los Angeles. I think she went on as the understudy, did an impressive job and ended up making her film debut in Reinhardt's famous 1935 production with James Cagney and Mickey Rooney.

R120

LOL — besides her “affairs” with Tracy and Howard Hughes.

Kate never had any leeching relatives or husbands or kids sucking her bank account dry, unlike Bette. That's why Kate died a wealthy woman and never had to appear in shit movies or tv shows to pay the bills.

Didn't one of her ex girlfriends/companions/housekeepers threaten to black mail Kate over sexual harassment in her twilight years? This woman even went to the police and filed a complaint?

Oh really, R142? Ever heard of Grace Quigley or The Man Upstairs? The later co-stars Ryan O'Neal.

REQUIRED VIEWING:

r144 that stuff wasn't the schlock that Davis and Crawford did. Hepburn never had any Trogs or Scream Pretty Peggys in her filmography, because she got to keep all her money and didn't have to support any useless leeches.

R145 Yeah, it's paying off leaching relatives' debts; how sad. A woman makes a fortune and winds up paying it out to some pimp.

TCM used to show an homage to Katharine Hepburn that was narrated by Anthony Hopkins, who was fairly new to the business when he co-starred with her in "The Lion in Winter." He said that Hepburn gave him one of the best pieces of advice he ever got, when she told him, "Don't act, just say the lines!" This in a movie where Hepburn is acting, acting, acting all over the place. If Hopkins saw the irony in her advice, he didn't mention it.

Bette Davis supported her mother in style until the day her mother died, her sister was severely mentally ill and unable to work for a living so Bette paid for her as well. Then there were the four husbands who never made the kind of money Bette had. Then the adopted daughter who was mentally retarded and had to be institutionalized full-time. She also had an adopted son she paid a fortune to educate at elite schools. Then, of course there was her biological daughter BD, who also never worked a day in her life and married a useless layabout who never worked either. Bette supported them financially for 20 years. If Bette hadn't finally cut off BD when BD wrote the book, Bette would've died broke. She supported her family for almost her entire life.

Hepburn was VERY smart not to marry (except for a very brief marriage in her 20s) and not to have children. She had money her entire life and never had to take awful scripts just to pay bills.

Hepburn overrated? Maybe.

She's okay, though no Myoshi Umeki. That much is clear.

Still waiting for someone to explain the Cynthia McFadden connection.

"Hepburn was VERY smart not to marry...and not to have children."

Perhaps her lifestyle was not conducive to child bearing or husband tending.

r151 lots of gay actors and actresses still got married and had kids. Hell, they still do it today.

“The Calla Lilies are in bloom again.”

R145, Wasn't "Rooster Cogburn" Kate's "Trog"?

r154 Kate was still doing prestige projects in the 60s, 70s and 80s. None of the stuff she did was on the level of Trog. Even something like Rooster Cogburn was nowhere near the embarrassments that Davis and Crawford unfortunately had to do to pay the bills.

R145, Bette and Joan never said "fuck" on screen as Kate did in "Love Affair".

Greta Garbo was another one who never married or had children or had any relatives who leeched. As a result, she had a gorgeous full-floor apartment in a gorgeous NYC building and lived the life of a wealthy woman until the day she died.

And remember, a lot of female stars from that era had husbands who took over their finances and pissed it all away, leaving their wives broke. Not marrying also protected them from that.

[quote]Bette and Joan never said "fuck" on screen as Kate did in "Love Affair".

SFW?

I've won FOWAH Academy Awowards!

Katharine Hepburn for Twillings Tea.

*Raises glass to K.Hep's four leading lady Oscars*

Pressed stay pressed.

"And remember, a lot of female stars from that era had husbands who took over their finances and pissed it all away, leaving their wives broke. Not marrying also protected them from that."

Debbie Reynolds had two.

Wasn't I a dish?

R163, Nice saucers.

She’s dead! Fuck!

Joan and Bette's later stuff is much better than hers.

Her fans are women who see her as a feminist icon. Strong female characters were popular during WWII.

Correct.

Davis played multiple characters onscreen. All of Hepburn's roles were simply in service to her actual performance: her offscreen image.

Davis was, foremost, an actress; Hepburn was a movie star.

We've done this a million times before, but that's okay.

I even mentioned her in my OP on the 'Divas We Don't Like' Thread.

It's all true. She was wildly overrated.

NOTHING that Kate did in her later career comes close to madame Davis 's performance as' 'mrs Vanschuuyler' ' in the immortal' 'Death on the Nile' '. Just her face has been making me laugh for 40 years and counting. If miss Kenneth dares pursue her project of remake with the cast she' s threatening us with, I will buy a Gun. I will travel to LA. At Gun point, I will force him and his stupid cast (and I won't even name names, you know WHO I mean) to scrub the set on their knees, then I will slap them and abuse them using homophoblc slur, then I will throw lettuce on the floor. I am serious here. Dont try me.

Yes, she's good there.

Rightie?

Wrongie!

I think Bette Davis was a more interesting personality than Katharine Hepburn. I like Hepburn too, but Davis was just more of a "star" and a real character. Compare their respective interviews with Dick Cavett. Davis was hilarious, self-effacing and quite witty. Kate was all about Kate.

She was a star, I enjoyed her film work.

Their respective Cavett interviews really sum up the difference the two.

I just finished reading "Dark Victory". Good book but Davis really did get soaked dry by her relatives. Buying and furnishing houses, paying their bills. Her sister did have mental health struggles and was institutionalized here and there. Her daughter was the worst. Married a grifter and then has the nerve to write a book about her mother to make some money. Good that she did because Davis was through with her after that (she had even made a comment after the Joan/Christina thing that she didn't think her kids would ever do that.) The adopted son sounds like a decent sort. Whatever money she had left when she died went 50% to him and 50% to her (supposedly Eve Harington-like) assistant when she died. Sounds like Bette got played. First thing the assistant did was sell the two Oscars.

I don't think she had a very happy life. Her work was always everything to her but she treated her sister poorly and wasn't very good with the adopted daughter that was placed in a home. She left no provisions for that daughters care in her will. Ex-husband Gary Merrill set up a trust for her to be taken care of. She fought with everyone and seemed to be always angry.

She sure made some great movies though. One of a kind actress.

R175, Only one of Bette's Oscars was sold for charity. Spielberg bought it and gave it back to the Academy. The Oscar for "Dangerous" resides at Boston University, along with Bette's AFI and KCH awards. I've seen them recently, the Oscar is severely tarnished.

OP = Meryl Streep, jealous that she doesn't have 4 Lead Actress Oscars like Kate.

Actually this thread quietened down after R43 was posted.

Hepburn has three and a half Oscars.

R179, Thank you.

Davis said if they'd given her half an Oscar she'd have thrown it back at them.

Is it possible to do a thread about any actress without a Streep hater having to insert her into the conversation?

Godwin's Law should really be about Streep not Hitler, at least here on DL.

R169 [quote]We've done this a million times before, but that's okay.

We're so glad we have your permission to look at somelthing with fresh eyes!

That is because, R191, while Miss Davis was a compelling actress, she was not a gracious person. Wallace Beery and Frederic March shared the Best Actor Oscar in 1932. And if it was good enough to be accepted by those two movie greats, it is more than good enough for Miss Davis to accept, should she be lucky enough to be in that position. Which she certainly was not. But had she been, no sentinent being could believe she would have turned it down.

That was 1932 when the Oscars were just a casual dinner affair and the wins arranged by the studios.

Things had changed by 1935. And things had changed a lot by 1969.

What had changed sufficient to justify Miss Davis's nasty threat to throw the Oscar back at them?

If Miss Davis did not stave off a tie by winning with a landslide, the blame for that is most appropriately placed at Miss Davis's own feet.

The Oscars had become a well-oiled, global institution overseen by PWC; they should've had a policy when it came to ties. In 1932 it was more just a party of execs from certain studios.

K-Hep was far more talented than some of you insist, and she had big successes in both comedic and dramatic roles. She continued to do faulty work (as was available) until she was basically too damn old to work. I'm impressed with that as well.

I love her in Woman of the Year, Pat and Mike, Long Day's Journey, Suddenly Last Summer, and Lion in Winter. She had a compelling bag of tricks, to her internal credit.

[quote]I'm impressed with that as well.

This is kind of the issue: everyone who likes her likes her dykey, WASPy persona.

We can like Davis and Crawford's performances and admit they were sometimes awful people.

I've never encountered Hepburn's admirers who do that; which mostly confirms my belief that what they like IS the persona.

"... a compelling bag of tricks..." Clang! We have a winner!!! That sums up her acting career perfectly.

As for "... to her internal credit...." I'm just disgusted by that image. Ewwww!

she was a very talented, skilled performer. I watched her recently in tne opening of the movie where she's an american spinster disovering dick in Venice. There is a silent close up of her sitting at a terrace, enjoying the view. What she expresses with her face, eyes, mind, body is incredible. Nuance, contradiction, anger, longing, etc.When She opens her mouth we are back to her usual grating haughty shtick. She was a fine actress, with limited range. Most were not as gifted, a few were better and more versatile. Davis is the better of the twoIMO, but they were not really competition, they were very different and used in different types of roles. in my own list of legzends, Davis and Leigh would be higher. But she would make the top five. rounded with Monroe and Taylor.

It's okay to like her act. She was the same in every role, as even she admitted, but a lot of stars of that era were. However, it isn't *just* that she's the same in every role, it's also that that one performance she gives in everything is so mannered, so artificial, so hollow. She never conveyed humanity. She never revealed anything of herself. And she always reacts just a little before she should in comedy, that one tick *really* annoyed me.

You can like her... but don't confuse her with great actresses.

R181, Bette also said many times that she would never agree to be billed below the title.

R156, Actually, Bette did utter the word "fuck" in "Bunny O'Hare", long before Hepburn in "Love Affair".

Once she became a star was she ever again billed below the title?

What's the story behind [italic]Ollie Ollie Oxen Free[/italic]? Lots of Old Hollywood stars ended up in children's films in the 1970s, so how'd she end up with this one?

I meant (and did type) "quality work" above, not "faulty work". I hate this auto select feature!

I'd rather watch TROG.

Seriously. BERSERK wasn't that bad.

I respect her in that se tried to be a real actress and tried the stage, and Shakespeare and all that. I think she was crazy and very self-centered but generous. She tried to nurse Monty Clift and Judy Garland out of addiction, she drove Leigh to her shock treatment and therapy, She took care of Tracy etc, so points for her. But To me Leigh is the bravest and greateset actress /movie star ever, and Davis comes close second. Every time I watch "Baby Jane" I am floored by her incredible performance and image shattering make -up. But Leigh paved the way for self destruction turned into cinamatic gold in " streetcar".

R192 ridiculous about not conveying humanity, On Golden Pond is deeply moving at times. For all the posters saying she didn’t have range, you probably haven’t seen all her movies. Kate did Shakespeare plays in between films to hone her range. Bette, Barbara and certainly Joan never did that.

Kate had this old fashioned notion you can’t have it all. It’s either work or children, and she chose work. She had talent and charisma out the ying yang and was a true movie star.

On Golden Pond is a Movie of the Week that she could've only won an Oscar for in the Reagan years.

R201 that’s Oscar number 4, but who’s counting.

It seems inevitable that Streep will win another one. That'll probably be quite a blow to Hepburn's rep, which is mostly based on her most-Oscared title.

"Summertime: Discovering Dick in Venice"

Co-Starring Rossano Brazzi and His Cazzo

R17 The Folger Shakespeare Library podcast, Shakespeare Unlimited, just interviewed a renowned Shakespearean director, Peter Brook. They asked him about working with Laurence Olivier and John Gielgud. He said (paraphrasing) both were great, but entirely different in their approaches: he said, “above all,” Olivier “lived showing off that he was the cleverest and the best, the opposite of that natural modesty in John Gielgud.”

About Olivier: “He was a cold person...one would say that if you could open him up, one would see a little ice box instead of his heart. Like a pianist, he was a great technician, but that was his limitation.”

Indeed, R205. This is how Marilyn Monroe acted his ass right off the screen in The Prince and the Showgirl.

When I first started watching classic film and began to come across her I felt I *should* like her. But I didn't. I tried. And, because of her stature, felt I had to say something nice about her. I don't feel that way now. I'm comfortable saying she was an awful actress, the worst to ever be a major Hollywood star.

I can still open a DL thread and make it a blockbuster. She can't.

R208 rubbish Olivia. DL loves me. 208 posts in 24 hours. And let’s not forget 4 Oscars to your 2. That’s all the matters. And I was never in a supporting category.

You think Hepburn's life was much happier than Bette's? Hepburn didn't have leechy children, but she financially supported relatives. She didn't have abusive husbands, but she spent her later life pursuing women who were not interested and holding a torch of unrequited passion for Cynthia McFadden. Where's charlie? Surely Kate must have discussed this with him since they met once on 45th Street ;)

"Their respective Cavett interviews really sum up the difference the two"

Definitely. Bette was a frumpy old lady letting her hair down, and Kate was in her "Hepburn costume" acting all "Hepburn" and bullshitting her way through the interview. I saw it when it was originally on in 1973 and didn't see all of her phoniness until viewing it again recently.

Most of the posts are bashing you though, Kate.

Move that coffee table over so I can just casually put my feet on it and make it look like it wasn't planned!

"Stanwyck may never have been as good as Davis at her best, but she was never as bad as Davis at her worst. In fact, she never gave a bad performance."

Stanwyck said she didn't care about billing, but since she wasn't owned by a studio, she was often billed below or to the right of her co-star (always over the title). Only once did she have a fit over billing - that unknown Lizabeth Scott got over the title billing with her and Van Heflin in The Strange Love of Martha Ivers because Scott was banging the producer, Hal Wallis.

R211 But I’m being discussed. Nearly 20 years after my death. You queens are just jealous. I was always upper crust and better than all of you and you know it.

Barbara Stanwyck was a tough-as-nails dyke from Brooklyn who had an absolutely horrible childhood. She was an orphan who grew up in abject poverty.

Yes, take a look at how small Douglas' and Anderson's billing is at the bottom of the poster.

Scott was an unknown at that time and also a lesbian...

R213, Her emotional breakdown scene in "Executive Suite" is embarrassing.

"Stanwyck may never have been as good as Davis at her best, but she was never as bad as Davis at her worst. In fact, she never gave a bad performance."

Barbara Stanwyck was the absolute best actress of her time, much better than Davis and Hepburn. Both Davis and Hepburn's acting is often stuff, mannered and now looks very dated, neither one had the range Stanwyck did who excelled in any genre: screwball, romantic comedy, drama, file noir, Western, thriller.

I like all three of them but Stanwyck is the best if them.

that is so low of you Kate. You know why I was in the supporting category. They had to protect your dear Vivien in the part that you so flamboyantly lost. I would have drawned too many votes away from her because many, many people preferred Melanie over Scarlett. But the members of the academy weren't fooled. They knew I was a lead in the movie. So they couldn't vote for me, could they ? could they ?

I was going to let this thread go. It was amusing. I didn't think it would last. Haven't we seen this before? It lasted more than a day. Why argue about Davis and Hepburn? Both of them are forever Movie Stars and they'll never, ever, be matched. Or eclipsed. I happen to be a Hepburn guy. She gave up the movie star shit and bought out her contract so she could start over. She learned how to play the game for the long run. It worked. People can can debate the four Best Actress Acsdemy Awards forever. Is that going to be matched? Switch them around if you don't like what she wind this one, or that one, for. Her Mary Tyrone alone is pure perfection. Ticks and tells? Whatever. As somebody above said, yes. But as she grew, and took charge of her own career, she knew what she was doing and she knew who she was. She was an actor who was a movie star. I was lucky enough to have met her. She even got me a meeting with a cating director when I was young. She was a wonderful, giving, caring, woman. I've read the books. All of them. I don't give a fuck about her private life. What I can say, though, is that she fucking loved Spencer Tracy. The night I was invited backstage to see her after a performance of The West Side Waltz, and we were talking, she asked me where I was going to school. I told her. She melted. She took my hands in hers, held them tight, didn't let them go,and said, "Spencer went there," then she started telling me about him and didn't stop talking. Her head barely shook. She cried a little bit. When she said something about him that really moved her. I said I loved Inherit The Wind. She cried. She gave me advice. I thanked her. Phyllis said it was time to go. I thanked her again. Miss Hepburn shook my hand, after having taken both of them and gripping them, and wished me the best if luck. That was one of our meetings. Seeing her on stage that night? And then that? Damn.

That's such a nice story. Again, liking her personally is the key to liking her 'acting'.

She was box office poison!

Can anyone come out and say: "I hate her. She was a phony. She was a cow. But she was a great actress."?

R220 Drawned? I might teach you proper English when you cross to the other side which should be any day now. And my dear Viv was GWTW. Not your sickly sweet Melanie. And you still lost to an actress playing a servant. Hattie did more in that staircase scene than you did in the whole movie.

Of the Jessica episodes, I'm not too keen on Dead Eye, Murder of the Month Club, or Dead to Rights.

[quote] Katherine Hepburn is over-rated.

Really OP, I am sure she would have found you FASCINATING.

I agree, R219. The problem is that Stanwyck didn't get the roles Davis and Hepburn did. She got some great ones, but not enough.

Stanwyck was a great actress, but she couldn't do period pieces.

Miss Dixie Dunbar outshone them all!

Oh yeah R229? have you ever seen The Great Man's Lady, Titanic or All I Desire???

I love the Stanwyck "Titanic," which is more melodrama than documentary (for that, see "A Night to Remember"), but she does seem pretty modern in it. Except for the opening shot of her, I don't think she's ever seen wearing a hat, which is rather unusual for 1912.

OP is not rated by anyone.

She was much more comfortable in a cowboy hat, r232.

The audience especially women love to see a strong woman onscreen. Career-minded women love to see a strong woman onscreen especially one with an upper class background that they emulate. This explains the popularity of Katherine Hepburn, Sigourney Weaver in Aliens and Linda Hamilton in Terminator. In recent years, Hollywood has been trying to make Keira Knightley and Kristen Stewart into strong women characters but Keira and Kristen act more like awkward, little girls.

Stanwyck was the better, but more limited, actress of the Golden Age. Limited in the sense I can't imagine her playing Shakespeare, did she? When I think of it all I can see is Tony Curtis in The Prince Who Was a Thief, "Yondah lies da castle of my foddah."

^^^ Correction:

"can" emulate

She knew her lane, r236....

I remember watching a couple of B.Stanwyck movies in my twenties, and not being interested. she's good but I like leading actresses to be beautiful. I am a very handsome man myself, so I don't pay to watch unattractive people. Thank God I don't see most of you

There is room for only one dyke on this thread and it is not Missy!

[quote] I've always found the praise she receives homophobic too.

Mary, get OVER yourself...

Titanic was not a "period piece" for Barbara Stanwyck.

She was alive when it sank!

OP is Matt Anscher, Übertroll.

All "_____ is overrated" threads are started by him.

Let's just say I'd love to have a few drinks with Stany or Bette anytime if they were alive... with Hepburn, no. I'd expect Kate to be pretentious and fake. Of course you can't have Stanwyck and Davis together - they hated each other!

Was Bette Davis mentally ill?

The stories suggest she was.

Not mentally ill, but as Davis aged she developed Anti-social Personality Disorder.

Her mother was the only person she really ever loved, and it was an unhealthy attachment.

Bette was also an alcoholic and could get pretty nasty when she had a few drinks in her. It's in all the biographies. Her marriage to Gary Merrill really did a number on her psyche, too. She was even more bitter and difficult after that. Granted, Merrill was a total asshole and a very weird guy, a lot of it wasn't Bette's fault at all.

Merrill did come to Davis' defense when BD "wrote" her "book."

She was always difficult, even in her early days at WB. But her life wasn’t as easy as Hepburn’s.

Stanwyck was fine within her range and was the least actressy, though I can't imagine her as Elizabeth I or Mary Tyrone. She was always Ruby Stevens, even as Annie Oakley.

R247, I'm sure Bette's legendary ego was severely bruised when Gary took up with Rita Hayworth after their divorce.

I think Stanwyck was the most naturalistic and versatile, though Davis is my favorite. Hepburn is great in a handful of roles, but more consistently irritating and limited.

Stanwyck was not tied to a studio, although she did some multiple picture deals for Columbia and perhaps Warner. This probably helped her avoid bad roles, although it kept her from getting some great ones. She went into television before some of her peers, first with an anthology series that didn’t last and later with The Big Valley. She was probably the most underestimated star of her time, from an acting perspective. Davis really did stretch herself and adapted to tv in a way that Crawford, for example, did not.

We're calling way too many things "mental illness" these days.

It kept her from getting an Oscar most likely with no particular studio interested in the advancement of her career.

R255, At least she received an honorary Oscar in 1982.

{quote]I happen to be a Hepburn guy. She gave up the movie star shit and bought out her contract so she could start over.

Actually, so did Joan Crawford....twice, both times quite successfully.

Joan's only major error other than not completing "Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte" was being such a pain in the ass about billing with Harry Cohn that he dumped her weeks before the start of filming "From Here to Eternity" which would have been a major mid-career triumph for her.

R257, This could have been Joan.

^^ I adore Miss Kerr but not in my bed after midnight.

This thread is now about ANYONE but Hepburn.. Interesting

Yes, R260, see R43 for why.

Babs note to Hepburn after the shared oscar. Kinda shady,no?

....but do you have to start singing as well!!!!

Her writing is hard to make out.

I assume the reference to her singing was the announcement she was going to do COCO on Broadway.

Clips of that are on YouTube and she's reeeeeeeally bad.

Even at the height of everyone fawning over her she managed to lose the Tony that year.

She claimed that she wanted to be famous but she refused to sign autographs, Grant interviews and just basically be a twat to people in general. I do love some of her films though. But she came across as a huge PITA. Makes for interesting biographies, but she sounds insufferable.

She was busy on the interview circuit when she was campaigning for On Golden Pond. That's when Barbara Walters interviewed her.

Well I told the bitch to sign .. for 25 cents a pop.

R264, sounds like you and Robert Osborne are on the same page:

[quote]There's probably no one more conceited than Katharine Hepburn. She always wanted to be the most fascinating person in the room. I went to an auction [of Miss Hepburn's estate items] in New York and [her niece, actress] Katharine Houghton [Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, Kinsey], who's a friend of mine, was there and they had these press [scrapbooks]. Houghton said her aunt had kept every [press clip] about herself because her aunt knew— even in her teens— that she would be very famous and important one day. She knew she was fascinating and she thought everyone else should be [aware of that] too. She was a nightmare and that’s what drove her. I’ve been in rooms with her, once at [director George] Cukor's house. When she would enter a room, she was a whirlwind and, unless she was ready to fascinate, she wouldn't be there.

She and Joan were very much movie stars.

Bette and Barbara were too, but actresses first and foremost.

^^ She wanted everyone to be in awe of her which automatically makes me hate her. She looks like a bag of bones.

R263, And she lost that Tony to me.

That was the year Bonnie Franklin lost to Melba Moore.

Main reason she stayed away from award shows. She wanted to be the center of attention. Gregory Peck (then president of the Academy) begged her to come in 1969 the year she tied with Babs ( would’ve been one of the biggest Oscar moments to walk up there with Streisand ) and present best actor, but she told him she didn’t want to be in the audience if she lost.

Can you imagine her face if she discovered she had to share it with Babs?

That was her genius. However she may have truly felt, she knew to maintain a lower profile because it did give her that mystique which elevated her into legend status. And like other posters have pointed out, she never had to slum it by taking projects for the money. She maintained her quality until she passed. Part of that was due to the status she had helped to build.

She really did play the game her way, and it's admirable.

Yes, that's how she won those later Oscars: by becoming the respectable actress of choice of her generation.

In 1972 or so, she snuck in, just as the house lights were going down, to the aisle seat of a back-of-house row next to my mother and me. London matinee; play forgotten. Only her presence remembered. She wore exactly the same attire as on that Cavett interview. She left at the "interval."

I sat spitting distance of her at a matinee of Lillian with Zoe Caldwell.

R276 Did you and your mum badger her during the performance:

"PLEASE! Miss Hepburn. If you won't sign BOTH of our Playbills, at least sign MINE! PLEASE! I'm your biggest fan! Why, I can't watch a minute of this play while I have the chance to talk to you! PLEASE sign this! PLEASE!"

"Do you want me to push you down in your seat the way Cary Grant pushed me to the floor in 'The Philadelpha Story'?"

She hates Spring.

A horse called Margaret....

And a merry little minuet....

Crawford would have been miscast in From Here to Eternity. She wasn’t very good at playing repressed and Would have been too compeitive with Lancaster to make their scenes work. He was on his way up, she wasn’t. Now Hepburn would have been interesting but she would not have wanted to share billing.

Haven't seen the latest remake, but Hepburn is the only actress I've seen who really nailed the part of Jo in Little Women--the tomboyish physicality, the passion for acting and writing, the vulnerability. I think she was a good physical actress--able to convey subtext and ambiguity in her facial expressions, able to adapt her overall physicality to different characters--her African Queen spinster differs, physically, from Tracy Lord who differs from Jo.

I think her big weakness was her voice--her voice was limited both by the New England cadence she used in every single role and it being fairly small and shrill. Vivien Leigh was also limited by her voice--she ran into problems on stage and was more effective on film for that reason, her voice was small, though not as odd as Hepburn's. Davis and Stanwyck, on the other hand, had great voices--particularly Stanwyck. Love Stanwyck, but I do agree she couldn't really do a lot of historical--there was a very modern, natural quality to her, which worked okay in Westerns, but not anything more formal.

Stanwyck never had a big screen comeback the way Crawford and Davis did with Baby Jane and Hepburn did with Guess who's Coming to Dinner? She had gravitated to television in 1960 with her own show and then did The Big Valley for four years. I wonder if her success on television hindered any big screen offers since the lines between television and movies were a lot more broad back then.

Still she is criminally underrated and really does belong up there with the greats.

Did Hepburn ever play a big slutty role like Crawford, Davis, and Stanwyck?

[quote]Stanwyck never had a big screen comeback the way Crawford and Davis did with Baby Jane and Hepburn did with Guess who's Coming to Dinner? She had gravitated to television in 1960 with her own show and then did The Big Valley for four years.

Don't forget that "Missy" Stanwyick co-starred with Elvis in that 1964 cinema classic "Roustabout"!

^^ Wonder if Elvis took Miss S " to dinner"?

She really wanted On Golden Pond, r285.

Had Stanwyck signed a long term contract with a major studio, I think that she would have won the competitive Oscar that eluded her. Freelancing gave her a choice of roles, but a studio wasn’t backing anyone who wasn’t there for a long run.

R287, And she won an Emmy in 1983 for "The Thorn Birds".

I loved her in "The Lion in Winter". Peter O'toole insisted on Hepburn for the part of Eleanor of Aquitaine...and he was right to do so. She was perfec for the role.

"perfect "

And she had a damn perfect entrance....

I have trouble believing an actress with a Southern accent as OTT as her New England one would’ve become the most Oscared actress of her generation.

R295 ? fiddle-dee-dee

One of Stany's last films - intimidating ex husband Robert Taylor on screen in The Night Walker.

Oh, R275... there are no respectable actresses.

LION IN WINTER doesn't work for me, since Hepburn was 25 years older than O'Toole.

It's too bad that Tallulah Bankhead never had the screen career of the other ladies invading this Kate thread. Yes, she had a year at Paramount and that one film at MGM, but after "Lifeboat" and "A Royal Scandal" at 20th, Tallulah wouldn't be on screen in a character part until the dismal but funny "Die Die My Darling!". Louis B. Mayer wanted to sign Tallulah to a contract but he lectured her about her morals, and Tallulah basically told him to fuck off. She is very funny playing herself in "Main Street to Broadway", an actual supporting role rather than just a "Stage Door Canteen" like cameo, and even steals scenes from Agnes Moorehead!

Kate & Tallulah knew each other and had mutual friend George Cukor. Apparently, Tallulah offered acting advice to Kate's niece, Katharine Houghton, and Kate was very grateful to her.

Tallulah Bankhead playing herself.

Wasn't Tallulah's final credit "Batman"?

Wasn't Tallulah's final credit "Batman"?

R303 I believe so. She wore a very tight pair of leather pants and as she got one leg up said, "Well there goes one ball....." Even at the end, she knew how to get attention.....

[quote]Name's for the most part have established spellings.

Oh, dear GOD.

Kate's accent isn't from New England. I've lived in Hartford and no one, not even people of her generation and station talked like that. She picked up the accent when she was Bryn Mawr.

R299, Kate was well-preserved and Eleanor of Aquitaine was 11 years older than Henry II. She *should* look older than Henry. Henry imprisoned Eleanor from her mid-forties to her early 60s (when he died). Hepburn was around 59 when the film was made, so, she was the right age for the part. If anything, O'Toole was too young, but I think he looked fine--nothing like a drinking problem for premature aging.

Yes, that was a Bryn Mawr accent. I grew up in the Hartford area and nobody sounded like Hepburn. There WAS an old-timey Southern New England accent that's all but extinct now that people of Hepburn's era had, but it didn't sound like her accent.

I’ve never even met older women who went to Bryn Mawr with that accent, though I do know an eighty year old woman who talks similarly to Hepburn. However, I’m pretty sure it’s an affectation since I met her parents years ago when they were still alive and they had normal accents.

Rose Kennedy had a Hepburnesque accent/speech pattern.

Hepburn made it all up. Good going!

Thanks R307. I'll reassess with another viewing.

[quote]Yes, that was a Bryn Mawr accent. I grew up in the Hartford area and nobody sounded like Hepburn.

She undoubtedly got it from her schooling, but remember that upper class people in New England, especially back then, didn't have ordinary New England accents. They cultivated the "mid-Atlantic" (i.e. halfway to British) pronunciation that was also used by actors.

Her accent was less affected than, say, Ruth Chatterton's.

Miss Chatterton....

It's not a mid-Atlantic accent and it's pretty well dominated that she picked it up at Bryn Mawr. I had a cousin with a somewhat similar accent, but she picked it up at the Colleg of Wooster of all m=places, it was n't the norm there either.

Hepburn's speech is a form of "Good English" promoted by theatrical speech coaches like Edith Skinner and Frances Robinson-Duff.

That horseriding instructor on the episode of [italic]The Simpsons[/italic] called "Lisa's Pony" from 1991 was such a pinpoint perfect impression of her, I was surprised to find it wasn't her!

Later, she got better. I really love The African Queen, for instance. And she's spellbinding in Suddenly, Last Summer.

How many people "develop" an accent at college? Those who are endlessly pretentious and self absorbed.

And yet it was still more convincing than Dick Van Dyke's cockney!

My cousin at Wooster was just insecure. She married badly and later was bipolar.

R320 Well, any successful actor who has a naturally strong regional accent (Mississippi, Brooklyn) will lose that accent for a more standard one. I lived with an Oscar winning actress born in Tennessee who, even wakened in the middle of the night, sounded like she was upper middle class from Chicago. Good actors, like musicians with perfect pitch, will live in an accent of choice.

Katharine Hepburn of Turtle Bay . . .

No one purposely adopts a Chicago accent.

R325 "Chicago" means the standard "American accent" with the least recognizable phonemic indications of geography before the North Cities Vowel Shift, or so say linguists. Now you'd call it "standard" or "general", and in this century it has less of geographic definition, though is anchored in the mid-west. In the context of this thread, Joan Crawford in Mildred Pierce:

Summertime and Long Days Journey for me. Others as well. Yes she could ham it up in her New England way but she was a great film actress and star. Some of the luster has worn off for me due to her dishonesty about her life. But then that’s her gen and that’s still Hollywood.

Her whole persona was one of a stereotypical lesbian. She didn't shy away from the spotlight and wasn't honest about her sexuality in her personal life. In fact, she went as far to promote an affair with a married man and parlay that into a now widely discredited Oscar.

There were other lesbians in Hollywood at the time and, despite that, were more honest in the personal lives.

I appreciate them all.

I tried that. I felt given that she was the most Oscared actress in history I *should* be able to find something in her work.

Never did.

She was a pretty good fit for the Madwoman of Chaillot. But that's a broad character, suited to her theatrical flair. Subtlety was not required.

According to Angela Lansbury in an interview that's on YouTube, Angela was not the first choice for "Dear World," Hepburn was. Of course, Hepburn made the non-musical movie of "Madwoman," which bombed. As did "Dear World." Even back in 1969, the play had not aged well.

Ah, but with Pee Brain in the White House and the forces of greed unleashed across the world, the play is looking not so terribly dated anymore.

I took it out and read it again on the weekend Trump was inaugurated. It could still produce a shudder.

One of the best quotes about her was from a critic who said she had a fascinating screen presence but at times, she was the most annoying person in the history of film.

I can see how she and Michael Jackson got along so well. And Liz Taylor and Brando too. Similarly eccentric people who have huge egos.

Summertime is my favorite Hepburn film, Woman of the Year runs a close second.

Most of her 'feminist comedies' aren't really all that feminist.

Hepburn herself was quite old fashioned about that too.

Ironic that Kate worked with several Mame's (Angela Lansbury, Lucille Ball, Ann Miller, Ginger Rogers) as co-stars. Too bad Jerry Herman never cast Kate in Dolly. Imagine her coming down that staircase!

She wouldn't have suited the role and since she couldn't and didn't change herself for roles it wouldn't have worked.

What was the Spencer Tracy stuff all about? Were they really in a physical relationship?

No, they were just friends. She had her publicists make sure everyone knew about their 'secret' affair, which was cover for her and possibly his sexuality.

Hepburn's BFF for decades was a socialite named Laura Harding, who was a lesbian.

But a grotesque lie was built on this...famous writers have waxed poetic about the dynamics of the Tracy/Hepburn “love” story. Hepburn loved being blunt and forthright about everything...how odd that she chose to lie about it all. She should have just stayed married to Ludlow Smith. All of this smoke and mirrors...

Hepburn was a sister/mother-figure who nursed "Spence" after he went on monster benders. She was compensating for not rescuing/saving her brother when she was 13.

Lots of tender touching, but no pole meets hole, I would venture to say.

"I wouldn't give you 10 men for any one woman. All men are poops."

"That's why I eat pussy."

Kate a CHOMP R325

Could we please combine this thread with the "Women Who Rim Men" thread?

It will save a lot of overlap.

She did stay married to Ludlow for a number of years. She's also supposed to have had affairs with Leland Hayward and Howard Hughes. I think it's entirely possible as an ambitious actress, she'd have slept with men at various points. By the same token, I also think Cary Grant preferred men, but he slept with women.

I also think Hepburn and Grant made better screen partners than Hepburn and Tracy. Tracy grounds Hepburn, but I prefer her flying off with the equally energetic and stylized Grant.

I don't think Howard Hughes slept with her.

Or some of the other names he could have.

He was a very strange man. Jane Russell, one of the objects of his affection and put under personal contract to him when she was unknown, claims she never slept with him and I believe her.

Jane Russell couldn't fuck Hugues because her midge was too full with JOHN PAYNE 's humongus dong. When she didn't have it up her stomach she had it down her throat and choking on it. His load was so big she nearly drowned several times. And he really widened her range all the way to the back door too. Too bad she aborted. Imagine a human half Russell half Payne ? The body !!

Jane Russell couldn't fuck Hugues because her midge was too full with JOHN PAYNE 's humongus dong. When she didn't have it up her stomach she had it down her throat and choking on it. His load was so big she nearly drowned several times. And he really widened her range all the way to the back door too. Too bad she aborted. Imagine a human half Russell half Payne ? The body !!

R351 Still wanking off to John Payne. Quaint.

Hepburn wasn’t interested in sex. She tried it a few times, but really didn’t care for it. Her relationships with men were for companionship and career advancement. Her relationships with women, ditto.

Is it midge or minge? I think Ricky Gervais' joke on the Golden Globes referred to "minge".

Typo R354. Minge it is. Russell had the widest, deep est Minge in Hollywood, and still it wasn't enough to contain Payne. Read Payne as in ' agony'

R353, that's interesting--source?

I read her autobiography *Me* years and years ago and she comes off as self-absorbed and self-enchanted. The writing's very impressionistic, skips and leaps about. Very actressy, not at all intellectual. Main thing I remember is saying that she posed for a nude statue because "I quite fancied myself."

It's possible that she was open to worshippers of either sex. I do wonder if her relationship with Tracy was a chance to save that brother--it would explain the strength of it and the emotion she expressed about Tracy afterwards, which did come off as genuine, but not necessarily sexual.

Bette Davis's memoir "This 'N That" is a much better read. Parts of it are unintentionally hilarious. One gem is that after her cancer surgery and three strokes, Bette gave up drinking and smoking for a whole month. Yes, a whole month! She was proud of that. When she resumed drinking and smoking, she switched from scotch to white wine and unfiltered cigarettes to filtered cigarettes.

R357, Ironic, that in a 1982 PLAYBOY interview, prior to her stroke, Bette ridiculed people who drink white wine.

Hepburn may have slept with a few men, but I wouldn't ever call her bisexual. Lying on your back for a couple of minutes doesn't make you straight.

Jane Russell was at the very least, bisexual. She dated some men, but there wasn't much going on most of the time other than going out.

R359, Does lying on your back for a couple of minutes make you gay?

R359, she was too sore from Payne 's monster

R358, drinking wine was once not considered really drinking, hence the rationalization.

"Her relationships with women, ditto"

That reeks of someone who can't handle that Hepburn, especially when she was young, was into women - sexually and emotionally. Yes, she did the deed! DL historian of a decade ago, David Ehrenstein even told us of how older Kate put the moves on a actress in a play, Joy Bang? I forget the story, maybe someone else will.

I wonder if Kate and Garbo ever ran into each other on the street in their NYC neighborhood. They lived practically around the corner from each other.

R363, Hepburn told Dick Cavett that she had been in Garbo's company many times through mutual friend George Cukor.

R359, Jane Russell, uncomfortably interviewed by Joan Rivers.

Joan Rivers was such an asshole.

Jane seemed drugged. It also looks like a she'd had a bad nose job. Seems to be whitewashing Howard Hughes. A cunt with the sex symbol remark.

Jane did have an alcohol problem for a while. Her kids did an intervention with her.

I think part of the thing about Hepburn-the-lesbian is that the stories are all second-hand and came out after her death. She had the good luck to outlive a lot of people and dictate her own version of her history.

I mean, are there letters, photographs, things that support the stories that came out afterwards? Some lover whose career she helped?

Honey, that’s like asking if Paul Lynda or Liberace was gay.

She was as butch as winter tyres of a Subaru.

Whether she ever actually had sex — lesbians, like most women, rarely bother with it.

I've been hunting about on Google--the description of her being someone who disliked sex, but had romantic relationships with women and men comes from the Mann biography. I don't think that's because Mann can't deal with Lesbian Kate--I think it's more likely Hepburn had issues with sex and, I'll guess, intimacy in general. She liked her world of make-believe--the striking thing about her as an actress is how invested she is--even when she's terrible (and she's terrible in several of her early films), she's over-the-top sincere.

The Telegraph review of the Mann book points out that because Hepburn didn't like sex, she "didn't have to lie very much" about all those friendships.

So, maybe the asexuals can claim her as well.

Interesting thing is that her love affairs with men are documented and verified , whereas there isn't a shred of evidence that she ever was a lez. Every body in Hollywood will tell you that she was extremely flirty with men. After the Bowers book (that reeks of revenge) her family issues a comment : that if ' aunt Katie ever had lesbian inclinations, none of the family membres who lived with her for over 60 years ever had a clue about it'.... But on DL, she IS a liar, a hypocrit, The butchest butch who ever butched, The dykiest dyke who ever dyked....you people are CRAZY.

Interesting thing is that her love affairs with men are documented and verified , whereas there isn't a shred of evidence that she ever was a lez. Every body in Hollywood will tell you that she was extremely flirty with men. After the Bowers book (that reeks of revenge) her family issues a comment : that if ' aunt Katie ever had lesbian inclinations, none of the family membres who lived with her for over 60 years ever had a clue about it'.... But on DL, she IS a liar, a hypocrit, The butchest butch who ever butched, The dykiest dyke who ever dyked....you people are CRAZY.

[quote]Every body in Hollywood will tell you that she was extremely flirty with men.

Seems so different from her public image.

I bet she was a real ho who could eat out ass like nobody's business.

She once criticized Glenn Close's "big, ugly feet" and said she couldn't be a leading lady because of them.

She didn't ' buy her contract'. Her lover Howard Hugues bought it for her and financed ' 'the Philadelphia story' ', The stage production, that was written for her by a friend, and made sure she had the property and approval of every detail of a movie version that established her as an independant star. Then she refused to marry him. She played the game like any other star actress. Independant woman my ass. She owes her producer/lover her career, and then knew how to use powerful gay men like cukor and her best friend Irene Mayer for her benefit. Shrewed, ruthless business woman. The rest is BS.

She didn't ' buy her contract'. Her lover Howard Hugues bought it for her and financed ' 'the Philadelphia story' ', The stage production, that was written for her by a friend, and made sure she had the property and approval of every detail of a movie version that established her as an independant star. Then she refused to marry him. She played the game like any other star actress. Independant woman my ass. She owes her producer/lover her career, and then knew how to use powerful gay men like cukor and her best friend Irene Mayer for her benefit. Shrewed, ruthless business woman. The rest is BS.

[quote] It's possible that she was open to worshippers of either sex.

That's the narcissism at work.

Greta Garbo also disliked sex. She preferred women over men, but didn't really enjoy having sex with either.

That's true of most lesbians.

The OP of this thread is over-rated.

See how easy that is?

Yeah, R381, but can you start a thread with that title and get three hundred responses agreeing with you?

Not even close to 300 of these posts acknowledge agreement with OP.

Far more than if OP had said the same about any of her contemporaries.

Find me five posts of uncritical praise for her.

My thread is still opened for a few more posts bitches, and I am ALIVE

R385 not for much longer cunt. I’ll be making your life miserable on the other side.

Not just her early films, r371.....

Bitch R386, this is Hollywood hell you're talking about. Multiple oscar winners and single oscar winners don't boil in the same cauldron sweetie. I'll be up there with Viv, Luise and Liz, you'll still be down there with the rest.

"Jane did have an alcohol problem for a while. Her kids did an intervention with her."

If so, it was her ADOPTED children. I'm talking about the intervention, Jane was a serious boozer for decades.

"Greta Garbo also disliked sex. She preferred women over men, but didn't really enjoy having sex with either."

Have you even noticed that it's men who write things like that?

R389, so what if they were adopted? What’s that got to do with anything?

Another vodka stinger...

R1, R5, R12, R23, R28, R69 and R70 from the first 70 responses, R384....

Three of those aren't uncritical.

You Old " show us the photos of Hepburn eating Miss Harding's crumpet or it never happened" Queens are so tiresome. Even when you are given first hand, in person, I was fucking there accounts all you can do is scream BLASPHEMY! You have such a bizarre vested interest in what you see as "defending" the reputation of your long gone and forgotten "goddesses". Well the worshipers are all gone. The altars are deserted and the roof has fallen in on the temple. Yet still you are here like some wizened revenant acolytes worshiping them or the Howard Strickling version of them. Get a life.

Really, R394? Which three would those be? The most critical comment is from R1, "maybe she played herself" but overall it's still a post that's praising Hepburn. And these are just from the first 70 posts.

Would it have killed you to have at least posted a picture or link OP? Would it? I mean would that have really been that hard? Would it? Why don’t you try to think more of others next time before you post? Can you give us a straight answer? At least be honest for once in your life and tell us why you were so inconsiderate?

Cary & Kate....

Kate once said in an interview years ago that she did not find Cary Grant handsome. When the interviewer called her on it, she explained that she thought he had a "funny" face.

That was just Kate being a cunt, and a narcissistic one at that. Cary Grant was a beautiful man. She was the one who was ridiculed for her unusual looks.

R395, Scotty Bowers is part of the problem. His claim was that he procured more than 100 women for Hepburn. 100 woman and not one of them has ever spoken up for a bit of old-age fame? She was a sexually voracious dyke on par with Tallulah Bankhead and Pola Negri, but still manage to fly under the radar? Meanwhile, other people who say she was a lesbian depict a woman with a couple of long-term, but not very sexual relationships.

She seems to have had some bond with that old drunk Spencer Tracy--to the point where she put her career on the back burner for five years. This being linked to her unresolved feelings about the brother who killed himself seems on. Tracy being a deeply conflicted bi guy also seems right. If Hepburn had her own issues with sex, being a fag hag drawn to bi men seems possible. Though Leland Hayward was a ladies man--married Margaret Sullavan and then left her for. Also married those professional wives Slim Keith and Pamela (eventually) Harriman.

But she also had long-term relationships with women--Laura Harding, her "assistant" Phyllis--and those may have been lesbian-hiding-in-plain-sight. That seems a lot more likely to me than the Scotty Bowers dyke-on-the-prowl depiction.

Which is why I said above that I thought she was possible open to worshippers of both sexes. I think she was a non-malignant narcissist. She wanted to be adored, but not intimate. I say non-malignant because she had enough sense to stay mostly single and not have kids--said she was too "selfish" to be a mother. She kind of knew she was a fabulous monster--probably why she's weirdly compelling in Morning Glory--she played a version of herself in it.

In that sense, Spencer Tracy might have been a great love of her life, in that she is reported to have taken care of him (and was there when he died), but as a replacement brother, not a romantic interest. She seems to have put herself first in all her other relationships--Laura Harding put her own career on hold to manage hers. Phyllis, of course, was actually employed as her assistant. Both Leland Hayward and Hughes helped her with her career.

Bacall wrote in "By Myself" that Hepburn was distraught when word that Fanny Brice had died reached the Belgian Congo location where "The African Queen" was being filmed.

Joan Rivers was funny, but such a cunt as an interviewer.

She brings up Jane Russell's abortion ON TV and Jane signals to her in very clear language that she doesn't want to talk about it. So what does Joan do? She demands a staffer find the passage in Jane's book so she can confront her with it.

That is such poor form. It's a talkshow interview, not cross-examination.

Joan Rivers hated other women, never could stand her woe-is-me stuff just because she was so damn mean.

Phyllis , Hepburn's assistant was a very old sexlesss ugly woman who was a rescue from unemployment, beause her former boss, a famous coach for Garbo, Monroe et all, had died. Stars do that. When Vivien Leigh died, Alan Bates rescued her secretary, Rosemary Geddes, and she lived in the house with Alan and his sons, and later in a bungalow at the back of the house. There was never anything sexual. it was strictly pro. Stars need assistants full time . The phone rings constantly. After Garbo's death, letters to her lesbian lovers were published etc, nothing in Hepburn's case. Nobody ever came front to speak about an affair. instead we have a marriage, several affairs with men etc ...Face it, Hepburn was not a lez.

Hepburn was very shrewd and controlling.

The absence of any letters she would not want to read is only evidence of that.

Jean Arthur...lesbian?

R406 not a letter sent in 70 yrs ? sure. Even Garbo's letters to lovers have leaked, god knows she was private and controlling

Hepburn seems like the type that would burn any letters to control her public image.

Yeah, but what about the recipients? There's no reason to keep anything like that hidden at this point.

Nothing too sensational in her will--she left some furniture to Cynthia McFadden, also some money to her housekeeper, her accountant and some younger relatives. Said her stuff could be published.

R405, thanks for the info on Phyllis. Okay, that leaves Laura Harding and some chick in college as rumored romantic liaisons on so on the distaff side with Luddy, Leland Hayward, Hughes and Tracy for the guys. Oh and John Ford. She also comes off as weirdly enamored of John Houston in her memoir of the African Queen. But Houston was an even bigger egoist than Hepburn.

so she burnt her letters, had her secret lovers burn the ones she sent, had NDA with all of the 100 and more of them, found several famous pussy hounds to beard for her, and threatened any papers or journalists of private people for over 60 years...wow

[quote]Jean Arthur...lesbian?

In her early movies, Jean Arthur always reminded me of Mary Martin, who was . . . lesbian.

R411 relax. This is DL. Where every celebrity is either gay or heavily favored to be. Personally I think Kate preferred the company of women. Not necessarily sex. Tracy treated her like shit. I just can’t imagine her fucking either men or women. Totally sexless probably for decades.

A lot of lesbians actually HATE sex.

You know the old saying: Gay Men are gay because they love men. Lesbians are lesbians because they hate men.

R326, the Chicago accent is nowhere near Standard American, which is an artificial construct. The Seattle accent is probably closer to Standard than any other regional accent.

The Chicago accent is one of the furthest from Standard. You do not need to be a dialect coach to hear how different they are.

"Joan Rivers hated other women"

Joan River especially hated lesbians, like she thought they were after her.

R405, Hepburn's sexuality was out there for a long time, even my grandmother thought she was a lesbian. Biographer Anne Edwards said after Hepburn's death that there were lesbian things she couldn't include in her book . I don't care either way, it's just that some of you have so much invested in Hepburn's "straightness." I know 75% of the people here are over 50, but this attitude, and idiot posts like R405, make me think that it's more like 99%.

Meant to say "idiot posts like R414" NOT R405.

R245=BD HYMAN

R158 , FUCK YOU

R175 , One of her Oscars went to the Bette Davis collection at Boston U .

Bette/Meryl

Can’t believe that no one ever called her out for doing yellowface in DRAGON SEED.

R422 Her film as Harriett Tubman was far better.

Curiously, all her films without a strong co-star flopped.

Not so of Davis, Stanwyck, or Crawford.

Hepburn added prestige to MGM...not necessarily box office.

And MGM worked to add prestige to her.

I used to think that Hepburn was the best actress of the golden age. But she wasn’t really. Others were as good and some even better. She came into her own, surprisingly, when she got older. Most of her strong performances were from the fifties on...

The Connecticut accent is the closest to a standard American accent. And no, not the accent Katharine Hepburn had. People from Connecticut speak "neutral" American English, it's not the accent you hear in the other New England states.

She sounded more upper-class than regional. Which is an affectation among Americans, but natural in UK.

When we think of upper-class UK accents what we're often thinking of is a South-Eastern regional accent.

Hepburn sounds ridiculous now.

No one tends to talk about Norma Shearer and Greer Garson in the company of Hepburn, Davis, Stanwyck, Crawford plus de Havilland (and Fontaine). Maybe because Shearer and Garson didn't have as long careers? They were certainly big at MGM in the 30s/40s. I don't think Shearer was a great actress (though she's excellent in "The Barretts of Wimpole Street"), but she was a big star and married to Irving Thalberg, MGM's head.

Shearer and Garson both retired early and never got a big following with later generations.

[quote]Shearer and Garson both retired early and never got a big following with later generations.

Not exactly. Norma Shearer retired in 1942 at age 40 and never looked back. Greer Garson never really retired and continuing working, if only sporadically, throughout the '60s and '70s. (In the '50s, she replaced Rosalind Russell in "Auntie Mame" on Broadway.) Garsons's last credit on IMDB is a 1982 "Love Boat" episode. She was 91 when she died in 1996.

Loretta Young had quite a nice and lengthy career. Big screen and small.

Ugh, Greer Garson. Big potato face with flaring nostrils like a horse. Leonard Maltin said it best, “She has poise, but no grace.”.

r432 40 was pretty young to retire. Garson's career was essentially over when she was also in her 40s, except for a few jobs here and there.

In Shearer's case, her persona was quickly dated, she was very much of her time. She didn't translate to later generations the way Stanwyck, Davis and Crawford did. Their personas were still very modern and relatable decades later. Shearer turned into a relic.

Again, I appreciate them all. Greer filled Norma's pumps quite adequately for a period of time....as well as Roz's.

Garbo and Shearer both retired around the same time.

Lovely Miss Arthur....

Katherine Hepburn is over.

So is Bette.....what's your point?

"She did it the hard way"

Yes, she did.

Bette had a benevolent streak, she insisted on integrating the USO clubs in WW2 and had no problem with signing autographs for and taking photos with the African-American soldiers. I take my hat off to her for that. Many white celebrities at that time wouldn't be so brave as to do that.

And she did the Hollywood Canteen.

Bette and Barbara seemed like folks who could let their hair down when off screen and just talk like normal people. Joan and Kate seemed like they almost always had to play the star. There are probably variations, of course, but from reading about them and hearing what their peers and fellow actors said, it seems plausible.

Crawford & Stanwyck - The Shirley Eder Tapes (Secret Phonecalls!)

[quote]And she did the Hollywood Canteen.

Bette also introduced this song in "Thank Your Lucky Stars," a World War II fundraiser for which the stars donated their salaries to the Hollywood Canteen, of which she was a co-founder, with John Garfield.

Young would have been forgotten by the 50s without her tv series. Her daughters revelation about her illegitimacy revived interest for a while, too.

Young made helluva lot of films though. The ones that seem to be shown the most on TCM are "The Bishop's Wife" and "The Stranger", plus she's very good in her Oscar-winning role in the "Farmer's Daughter". But she's not mentioned among the top classic Hollywood actresses, even though she worked an awful lot starting back I think back in silent films and then in some juicy pre-Code films.

For her series, Loretta Young had the most fabulous entrances on television. I'm certain that young gaylings of the era imitated them at home. I certainly would have.

Thanks r443, I said USO and I was wrong. It was the Canteen that she insisted on being integrated.

Those Loretta Young entrances are making me nauseous.

The Stranger was a good film. So was And Now Tomorrow, where Loretta was a deaf woman and Susan Hayward portrayed her younger sister.

R447, Loretta made a comeback in 1986 with the television movie "Christmas Eve", winning a Golden Globe Award for which her goddaughter, Marlo Thomas, was also nominated.

Loretta beating Marlo . . .

And she looked pretty damn good when she aged....

I found her almost as insufferable as Greer....and like Streisand, she loved making sure that her hands were in every scene to show off her nails.

Joan Crawford hated her.

How much will it cost me to tell ya to GO FUCK YOURSELF Loretta?

One of Loretta's sons was busted for child porn.

Young's excessive goody-two-shoes act grated. There are .lots of people who did a lot of movies and a re forgotten today. Susan Hayward for example. Much more interesting than Loretta.

Susan Hayward certainly isn't forgotten on DL.

Yeah, bjut out in the world, outside of a few gay men, you'd be hard pressed to find people who have any idea who she was. Hepburn had a long life and career. Crawford would be forgotten w/o "Mommie Dearest".

Ironically, Mommie Dearest probably preserved Joan's popularity into the modern era. Without it, she may very well have gone the way of Norma Shearer in the public's memory.

Norma Shearer stopped making movies in 1942 and never acted again. Joan Crawford's career lasted well beyond the 1940s and included the 1962 camp classic "What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?" and a string of '60s camp/horror flicks. Comparisons to Shearer don't really hold up.

For better or worse Mommie Dearest definitely made Crawford even more iconic.

She was gay and manufactured her image. It’s just about that simple. She was hiding in plane sight. She had “affairs” with well placed men- that is to say, for publicity. Yes she was friendly with Garbo and they lived very close to each other. Scotty Bowers got it right about Hepburn and Tracy- confirmed in Mann’s bio and by multiple contemporaries. Hepburn played the Hollywood game as well as anyone ever has- as did Grant. And both were great stars so you kind of have to hand it to them. They had their cake and ate it.

R463, As did TCM.

TCM owns most of Crawford, Davis, Hepburn's filmography. But not Stanwyck's or Loretta Young's.

Kate Hepburn was so fucking boring that I can't even finish reading this thread about her.

Zzzzzzzz....

R467, I'm a bit fancy, aren't I?

yes, you should hook up with dramedy...

"Leonard Maltin said it best..."

Leonard Maltin also said that he didn't think Stanwyck deserved an honorary Oscar because her films were too weak. He said it in 1982 on a late night CNN show named something like Hollywood Tonight hosted by Lee Leonard. I almost fell out of bed. Since then Maltin has joined my "hack group" - and that's 38 years ago, bub.

R470 I completely agree with you! Stanwyck indeed starred in some stinkers because in the 1930's, she was just a working gal on a movie making assembly line, having multiple film contracts (but not exclusive) with Columbia (1930-1933), Warner Brothers (1931-1935) and Paramount (1937-1950). However, she always got very good reviews, even for those stinkers, and she knew how to sell herself without being owned. Unlike Hepburn, Stanwyck remained very attractive even as she got more masculine as she aged, and unlike Crawford, she never looked scary. She also kept a gorgeous figure. On "The Colbys", Stanwyck looked gorgeous, even at 80. I'm wondering how she would have been had she accepted the role of Angela Channing on "Falcon Crest".

Capra said she had a "stern beauty", r471.

Barbara Stanwyck was one of those rare people who actually looked better as she got older. She was rather plain-looking as a young woman, but then as a mature woman with the silver hair and trim figure she was quite striking.

I think Bette Davis really aged the worst out of all the female stars of her era. The booze and cigarettes really did a number on her face, by the 50s she was quite haggard-looking.

When you consider the leading men all the women talked about here shared, it is an amazing list. Of Hepburn, Stanwyck, Davis & Crawford, they all worked with Henry Fonda, but I can't think of another leading actor who had them all. Many of the leading men worked with at least two or three of them.

Crawford's post-Warner's stuff was largely camp (Johnny Guitar, Baby Jane, Trog). She also wound up taking a supporting role in "The Best of Everything", which was high gloss soap opera (and her role is pure camp). So....gay film buffs, esp. fans of camp remember that stuff, but the general public does not (I doubt they were lining up for Trog) and certainly the camp bscures her capacity for headlining an A film in her 30s/40s heyday. "Mommie Dearest" has kept her memory alive more than anything she had done in the 25 or so years prior to its publication.

It's odd that Stanwyck's sexuality hasn't gotten much attention her, although Stanwyck the actress has. She came across at least as potentially lesbian as Hepburn and if anything became more masculine with age (as noted by others). She also had possibly lavender marriage with Robert Taylor, a horrible actor but said to be the love of her life--Tracy & Hepburn are a more convincing pair--at least they were equals in talent and had great screen chemistry.

There isn't much gossip about Stanwyck because she was pretty reclusive and not very social, especially in her later years. When she wasn't working, she apparently just stayed at home.

I can't believe she was a lez, Stanwyck I mean, she looks so NICE!

R471 Hepburn looked amazing in her old age. Stanwyck on the other looked 110 starting from the 70s on.

Hepburn has been reduced to a supporting role in her own thread.

Stanwyck was common.

R473, Stanwyck was at her most attractive when she was pushing 40 - in the mid 1940s (see pic)

"I think Bette Davis really aged the worst out of all the female stars of her era."

Yes, but they all drank and smoked like crazy. Davis didn't exercise like Stanwyck and Hepburn did, and gained weight and got out of shape in her 40s.

Davis drank far more than Hepburn and Stanwyck did. It was morning till night when she wasn't on a set.

Crawford might have aged better if she didn't take some fool's advice about her eyebrows and wearing shoulder pads that made her look like she was a prospect for the Green Bay Packers.

Leonard Martin said that about my Barbara? Fuck him...LOL he isn’t always right.

After EXECUTIVE SUITE, Stanwyck’s career slid into B movies. Had she gone to England like Hepburn or Crawford, she might have gotten better roles. But she was so devoted to America. But she really didn’t need to work, unlike Davis and Crawford, because they pissed their money away.

Stanwyck didn't have any leeching relatives or husbands, and she didn't live lavishly so she was always wealthy. She worked because she wanted to, not because she had to pay the bills.

Her next film after "Executive Suite" was C"Cattle queen of Montana". with....Ronald Reagan It was all downhill from there.

If anyone hasn't yet seen "Walk on the Wild Side"(1962), Stanwyck as a sadistic lesbian madam is worth a viewing.

She probably didn't have to act much for that part.

R486 & R487, Crawford had to have had something significant in the bank when she decided after seeing herself in the papers that she didn't like the way she looked. That the public wouldn't see her ever again, and she retired from the movie business.

You can't just decide not to work anymore and continue to live in grand style and not have the $$$ to back up living in a luxury apartment such as Crawfords without having the funds to back you up.

I never brought Crawford not having any $$ at the end. She left behind a $2 million dollar estate. That was plenty to luvevoff of in the 70s for someone like Crawford. I believe she was smarter financially than some people think.

Where did katherine Hepburn's family money come from? We're they billionaires or just really well to do? If her father was a doctor, then how did they have so much? Was it his money or her mother's money? I could never really figure out what side of the family the Hepburn family wealth came from.

I've just always heard that she came from massive money, but never really knew the origin of it. The way the Hepburn family is depicted in "The Aviator" movie. The Hepburn's appear well heeled on a massive compound estate in New England.

Can someone who know explain this to me please.

Her mother's family founded Corning Glass Works, so I assume there was some money from that.

R491, Crawford only lived another three years after that no more public appearances declaration.

She moved to a smaller apartment and lived a rather spartan existence. She rediscovered Christian Science and had a lot of health problems in the final years. It was quite sad.

Hepburn sounded like she was impossible to be with for long amounts of time. But she did make a few excellent movies.

R496, According to Frank Langella's book, the same could be said of Anne Bancroft.

Hepburn had to be the center of attention. Fun on camera maybe, but tiring in real life.

I don't think Hepburn's family was super-wealthy. Hepburn's mother came from a prominent family, the Houghtons, but she was orphaned in her teens and forged her own way in life. After graduating from Bryn Mawr, She married a medical student, Thomas Hepburn, who became a very successful surgeon in Hartford. The Hepburn family were wealthy by the standards of the day, but not in the way of the Vanderbilts and Morgans. Though Katharine Hepburn had a privileged upbringing, her mother's progressive views on women's rights, suffrage and education had as much to do with shaping Kate's personality as her family's position.

Anne Bancroft difficult? Married to Mel Brooks and with all his funny friends? I highly doubt it. Langella could be quite a diva though, so I wouldn't believe some of his claims.

R495, Crawford moved down the hall to a smaller apt on a high floor of her bldg on the Upper East Side of NYC. Not exactly frugal living.

"Stanwyck didn't have any leeching relatives or husbands"

No. Stany got 10% of Robert Taylor's salary until his death - he, like the passive jerk he was, let her have it to get out of the marriage.

Thanks guys for all these replies. R493 R494 R495 R499 R501

R501, Taylor died in 1969, Stanwyck in 1990.

Barbara Stanwyck at Robert Taylor's funeral. She was invited by Taylor's widow and wore yellow, his favorite color.

Duh, R503. That means she got it for 18 years. Stanwyck called Taylor "Junior" during their marriage.

Stanwyck was very controlling and somewhat emasculating with Taylor. He was a spoiled mama’s boy and Barbara was a tough living orphan with a trail of abusive husbands, an abortion that left her infertile, sexual abuse and abandonment by her father. Everyone knew that she was bossy and controlling and not the best mother to her adopted son Dion. It was a mistake for Bob to have married her. And I love Barbara.

Duh, R505. Try 21.

R506, Taylor spent his wedding night consoling his mother, who heard the news of their elopement on the radio and became hysterical.

R507, they were divorced in 1951. Taylor died in 1969. 1969 minus 1951 = 18 years, darling.

It doesn't seem like much at all is known of Stanwyck's personal life in her later years. She had few friends and didn't go out much. She has never in a relationship after her divorce from Taylor.

R492, Hepburns family was not very wealthy- they were upper middle class WASPs essentially- wealthy enough for private schools etc but not close to big inherited wealth. Her father was a physician. Her brother lived in her house in Old Saybrook CT. Hepburn’s wealth was derived from her career.

Katharine Hepburn was a fashion icon in modern times which neither Davis nor Stanwyck achieved.

Leonard Maltin was so wrong about Stanwyck's movies not being important enough.

Stanwyck is the only actress who made one or more masterpiece in every genre:

Double Indemnity - fim noir

Screwball - Lady Eve

Comedy - Ball of Fire

Drama - The Strange love of Martha Ivers

Thriller - Sorry, wrong Number

Romance - Meet John For

Western - The Furies

For my money, no one can touch Stany.

Plus Stanwyck has 2 holiday classics - "Christmas in Connecticut" and "Remember the Night"

a comedic-musical-murder mystery - "Lady of Burlesque"

and some very memorable pre-code films, including "Night Nurse" and "Baby Face'

That's questionable. And depends on your definition of wealth. She was definitely better off than any the other actresses mentioned on this thread.

I guess you could the same about Close and Streep... (Glenn's father was a doctor in Connecticut too) but they mightn't have been hugely wealthy (a little more like Sigourney Weaver was) but they were definitely well-off and had some form of inherited wealth.

I don't prefer it too Rear Window... her Witness to Murder... but I do like its kind of pulpy, noirish quality than the former lacks. I like the seedy hotel her character lives in, I like Stanwyck in the role (a little older, a little rougher, unmarried). It feels 'real' with the location shooting.

Stanwyck's 40s noirs are all very, very good.

Her chorus girl days coming in handy....

Stanwyck's childhood was about as hardscrabble and tough as they come. She had to have been tough to get out of it, but it's not surprising that she was a crap mother and less-than-ideal wife.

I think more than rich, Hepburn was privileged--that meant when her career in Hollywood went sour, she could return to New York and do Broadway. She wasn't intimidated by Hollywood executives; they were intimidated by her because she really did think she was in control of her own life and career. Most of them were immigrants and the children of immigrants, while Hepburn was a genuine old-school WASP. Women like her usually went to the Seven Sisters and married well. It was unusual to have one of them in Hollywood . She was a well-born oddball--a beautiful eccentric who really, really wanted to be a movie star.

Curiously, she told Jane Fonda that she wasn't glamourous enough. I always found On Golden Pond pretty cornball, but, thinking back, it was well cast--Jane Fonda's perfectly believable as the anxious daughter of chilly Henry and proper Kate.

Close's family had inherited wealth. She's a distant relative of Dina Merrill (EF Hutton investments, Post Cereals). I think it's the Hutton line that is in common. Her parents basically were rich hippies.

Hepburn’s too, R519. It was common in those days were wealthy men to have an official profession like doctor, but that’s not where most of there money came from.

Anyone who thinks Stanwyck did not appear in schlock movies, never saw "The Night Walker".

R521 - that was her last year in features. Stanwyck made The Night Walker, which was her "Baby Jane," though not as demented. The other was one with Elvis called Roustabout. Both dreadful and she called it quits because Stanwyck did NOT want to do old movie star horror ones. Then it was The Big Valley on TV.

Check out The Barbara Stanwyck Show (1960-61). It's not great TV, but there are some excellent episodes. This is the best one in the series, Assassin with Peter Falk:

I'm baking Katharine Hepburn's brownies right now.

R522, Stanwyck may have declined hag horror, but Mad threw her right into the same camp as Davis, Crawford, Bankhead, de Havilland, Fontaine, Garson, Rogers, Astor, and the Gabor Sisters in Hack Hack Sweet Has Been. Hepburn was conspicuously missing.

[quote] "Hepburn was VERY smart not to marry...and not to have children."

Perhaps her lifestyle was not conducive to child bearing or husband tending.

I don't have the time to read all these replies but maybe somebody mentioned, she was married once, and divorced.

Marlene Dietrich liked the pole and the hole and didn't give two fucks about it. She never really tried to hide.

Sorry, I was trying to reply to the quote and the original reply but it didn't come out right, I always screw that up.

I like/liked her. I did see her onstage (it was a high school drama club field trip, the play was A Matter Of Gravity). I don't think she was better onstage than on film, she was great either way. There have always been detractors - she was never a universally beloved actress. I was not that crazy about her until I saw her in Long Day's Journey Into Night - also when I was a teen (on TV), and then Summertime (ditto). My favorite was always Bette Davis but I grew to love and enjoy Kate in everything she did. I don't mind if people have certain likes and dislikes but I sort of hate it when people don't give the legendary actors a chance or just bitch about their mannerisms, or whatever. Best way I cvan say it is acting like Hepburn's is illuminating of the human heart and the human condition. It's something to appreciate and if you don't, well, no problem but don't merely be arrogant and dismissive.

R524, dear, Mad magazine was read by teens and pre-teens. It had no consequences. Sorry.

I realize that, R529. I wasn't claiming its value as anything more than inconsequential nostalgia and whatever humor may have survived.

Even so, with horror melodrama The Night Walker's William Castle as the producer/director and screenwriter Robert Bloch, who'd just cranked out Strait-Jacket, it's easy to see why Stanwyck was included in the satire.

Anyone like Stanwyck in the Colbys? Her last acting gig. She had just won a third Emmy for the Thorn Birds, and I assume she just took the job for the money. She was a fan of Dynasty, but the Colbys was a watered down version with too large a cast. She brought some edge and star power to the show (even more than Heston), but left after one season because she disliked the scripts and didn’t have enough to do. She probably thought initially she’d be like the Jane Wyman character in Falcon Crest.

Hepburn didn't come from wealth. Her mother was the impoverished branche of the Houghton family. Her father was a successful urologist who finally headed a small clinic in a small town. In those days, life was much less expensive. The house in Connecticut was their only property. All the neighbors were on a completely different scale. Her childhood bestie was the neighbors daughter. The Davises , from the Davis Cup... She taught Katherine manners . I think Kate was the only one to go to Bryn Mawr, because she was so traumatized by her discovery of her brother hanging from a beam in her aunt's attic. The 2 children were holidaying in NYC at their aunt's. Said aunt had taken them to a broadway show that evening. Kate discovered the corpse and for a long moment she tried to lift him back to life, alone in the attic. She was 8 or something. Interesting that she chose to become a Broadway actress in those circumstances. She came back from a Broadway show every night for decades with her headshake saying ' no no no'. Heartbreaking really. They were middle /Upper middle class. Like Vivien Leigh (Hartley) , Mirna Loy, Gary Cooper, Tallulah Bankhead, Grace Kelly and a few others. To my knowledge, The only ever real classic movie star originating from the upper class was Audrey Hepburn, The daughter of a baroness who had married beneath herself, a terrible commoner, and had a castle but no money at all. The grandfather was a baron and the mayor of Arnhem, and a cousin of Kaiser William. His other daughter was a Lady in waiting of the Queen of the Netherlands. Audrey and her mother were basically starving in one of their family castles.

I recall Hepburn being very upset about claims in a book that her father enjoyed bathing and being naked in front of others, including children.

[quote]Anyone like Stanwyck in the Colbys?

She seemed to have problems with her dentures sometimes. I remember in one scene she referred to John Forsythe's character as "Blake Clarrington."

Yes, she and Stephanie Beacham were great. She didn't like the writing though and only signed on because Spelling (an old friend) convinced her she'd get to work with Linda Evans (an old friend; she didn't).

Hepburn could never have done that role and, of course, would've considered it a step down for her. But it was better than most of the garbage she churned out in the '70s.

Stanwyck wrote this great letter about the scripts of The Colbys when she donated them to the University Of Wyoming.

Thanks for that, R536.

you're welcome :)

Film stars should always only do film. Not tv, unless it's a mini series or limited series. But never full blown television, I just think it's beneath them as cinematic idols of the silver screen.

It just seems like a step down to me. Slumming it on TV I mean.

R517 Stanwyck is very stiff in that routine. Her dykiness is showing.

[quote]Film stars should always only do film. Not tv, unless it's a mini series or limited series. But never full blown television, I just think it's beneath them as cinematic idols of the silver screen.

Someone is typing from 1984.

R541 I know I sound dated as shit, but its the way I feel. Movie stars belong on the silver screen, not television. It's just the way I feel about it.

And by the way, I was born in 1988.

That thinking is from a time when TV scripts were trashy. And people actually went to the movies.

Today, the best-written dramas are on TV. And most people watch movies on TVs.

R532, the Hepburns owned two houses, one in West Hartford near her father's practice (below), and one in Old Saybrook. The Old Saybrook House was destroyed in the hurricane of 1938, and rebuilt. The Hepburns were pretty well off.

R522, thanks for the Stanwyck episode. That was fun!

Hepburn's mother got a Masters in the 1800s so they must've been well-off enough for that.

R545, What are you implying?

Her mother was one of the country's leading suffragettes too.

They weren't just a simple doctor and wife.

They had huge houses in Hartford, although the first one was in an unfashionable neighborhood that became very industrial. Their later house became the President's home for the University of Hartford--a huge place, not your average doctor's house. The house in Fenwick on LI Sound was bought by Kat's parents not her. One brother of her's was a very successful doctor with an elite education. Her sister, whom you never heard about was a librarian. My guess is that there was plenty of money and med school would have been expensive in her father's time. They didn't live on the same block as wealthy families like the Foxes (department stores), they lived not far away.

And the Hepburn's loved themselves some FDR. They we're socialists.

R548 So upper upper middle class then?

[quote] (Loretta) Young would have been forgotten by the 50s without her tv series.

I don't really know what this means.

She would have been forgotten, except...she wasn't? Because she had a TV series (1953-1961) and was not only not forgotten but was very successful and popular. The show was re-run in the daytime in the 60's as well. So what's wrong with having a successful TV series, following a successful film career?

Kind of a broad generalization to say there was a time when TV scripts were trashy. There has always been good TV writing and bad TV writing.

[quote]She brought some edge and star power to the show (even more than Heston), but left after one season because she disliked the scripts and didn’t have enough to do.

Her health was also failing.

Fuck John Wayne. He was an Evil asshole. Fuck him.

Katharine Hepburn's childhood home in Hartford was torn down decades ago, it was near Hartford Hospital. That neighborhood is complete shit today.

R553, She had respiratory issues, which would eventually be her cause of death. You can see in this brief scene, she needed the support of furniture.

R520- Hepburns wealth was earned. When her family’s CT home burned down she rebuilt it and her brother lived in it. Her “wealth” was not inherited. Part of her myth- like the iconoclast heterosexual independent woman. What she really was in the best sense was a very smart gay woman who successfully created and controlled an image which was not who she really was. As such she was a star of her own creation and one of the screens really original and great stars. She was not ever Tracy’s lover- she was his best friend and protector. Her late life insistence of a great live affair offended her friends. But she knew what she was doing, for herself and Tracy. Think Jacqueline K-O and “Camelot.” And it remains the “story” of her life. It’s not.

R556 she may have been sick, but I can’t tell from that clip. She sounds looks fine to me.

She had emphysema.

She had some hot scenes with sexy priest Richard Chamberlain in "The Thorn Birds".

In my opinion, NO ONE ever had a better run of excellent films basically all in a row than Stanwyck did in her prime- at different studios and all with top directors who could have any actress they preferred, and they preferred Barbara Stanwyck.

Golden Boy

Remember the Night

The Lady Eve

Meet John Doe

Ball of Fire

Top THAT! Maybe only Bette Davis came close in her peak Warner Brothers years.

[quote] She was not ever Tracy’s lover- she was his best friend and protector.

Honestly, you weren't present in their private moments, right? Also this idea that Hepburn was somehow a dried up spinster or strictly gay and not a lover of men at all is absurd. Ditto for Tracy, he had a lot of love affairs with women, it's well documented. He may have been bi, I wouldn't be especially surprised (though everyone Scotty Bowers talked about in his book was dead. But I mean there's no one in the world who knows who all my lovers have been and I'm sure movie stars have many more lovers than I've had.

Well now we know. Hepburn's wealth came from her film career, not family inheritance.

I read somewhere, that her father managed her finances for her when she was in her heyday in Hollywood. That she would send her salaries to her father and he put invest and put money away for her, and give her an allowance to live on.

I can't remember where I read that, it was a long time ago. But if that's to case, at least she had a father who cared enough to take care of her finances for her, so she could focus on her career.

It isn't really agued that Hepburn created the whole Tracy/Hepburn romance out of whole cloth aided and abetted by Garson Kanin, a close friend, which gave him something to write about.

[quote]Well now we know. Hepburn's wealth came from her film career, not family inheritance.

We don't know that at all. All evidence suggests that both parents had some form of inheritance.

R564, Kate was not pleased that Garson Kanin wrote "Tracy and Hepburn". Its publication ended her friendship with him and Ruth Gordon. But, the book did play a part in her granting Dick Cavett that extended interview and finally attending an Academy Awards ceremony. She was encouraged by George Cukor and others to become more public.

Maybe Liberace was also having affairs with women. That's her equal in terms of stereotypical homosexual traits.

Did Hepburn ever have a relationship with a man not rumored to be gay?

Probably not, R568. To be associated with Hepburn invited the suspicion that a man was gay. Chicken/Egg.

The "affairs" with Tracy and Hughes are the only credible relationships we know happened. One was rumored to be gay, the other was all sorts of crazy didn't like to be touched.

So I'm skeptical of both. And any other "affairs" are just rumors.

Tracy, Hughes, and Luddy were all rumored to be gay.

[quote]Mann brilliantly traces how Hepburn herself gradually bought into the Hepburn/Tracey brand – initially livid about the romantic fictions cooked up by her old friend Kanin in a book in 1971, she changed her mind to such an extent that 20 years later she collaborated with him on a souped-up rewrite.

Maybe the marriage was just for money.

R562, where is it documented that Tracy had affairs with women? He was a guilt ridden gay Roman Catholic alcoholic and one of the most shielded great actors in Hollywood. He would not divorce his wife, but he also did not live with her. Hepburn and Tracy “lived” (Hepburn really lived in NYC and CT) in separate cottages on George Cukor’s estate.

R574, Loretta Young speaks of her affair with Spencer Tracy at 5:50.

Spencer and Loretta . . .

Loretta Young was absolutely gorgeous when she was young and starting out. I'm not sure if I've ever seen her in a film but she held onto her good looks for a long time - as R575 clearly shows.

Stanwyck's death certificate. She had emphysema for 20 years when she died.

Stanwyck, like many of her contemporaries, was a super heavy smoker, two pack per day at least.

Coincidentally today is the 30th anniversary of Stanwyck's death.

I knew Barbara's niece, who inherited most of her fortune. She was great with money- besides her house in Trousdale, she owned an entire block on Ventura Blvd. Also, she had some fabulous jewels most of which the niece auctioned.

The only reason she did the Colby's was because her house burned down, and Spelling offered her a suite at a boutique hotel and of course the money allowed her to rebuild a much nicer house.

"Also this idea that Hepburn was somehow a dried up spinster or strictly gay and not a lover of men at all is absurd."

Is this one of those I'd be so hurt if she didn't "love men" because I'm a gay who loves her comments? Like straight women act like gay men or like women in porn so "we have something in common"?

R564, Garson Kanin was a closeted homosexual. His investment in the Hepburn-Tracy myth is suspect.

For the youngsters here, there was life and gossip long before Scotty Bowers.

Who was Garson Kanin’s boyfriend?

That clip from The Colby's is so awful. The dialogue is dull and the acting is so stilted.

Ruth Gordon, R583

Stanwyck endured a home invasion in 1981.

I had no idea Stanwyck had any close relatives. She must've been good with her money if she lived in Trousdale.

Spencer and Young were teamed together in Frank Borzage's MAN'S CASTLE (33). She would have been only 19 or 20 when they had a liaison; he would have been 30.

When I was at the U of WY in Laramie Library I was surpised to see Stanwyck's awards on display there. What was her connection to the place?

Yes. I was wondering about that too R588. I'm sure someone here will know. I'm always impressed and surprised by the wide area of knowledge DL members have. No matter what the subject.

Sheesh people, Google. They asked for them.

I guess we need to start a Stanwyck thread for part 2.

Emphysema for 20 years? Good lord.

Stany was a member of the Cowboy Hall of Fame in Wyoming. Her portrait there:

Ruby during her Ziegfeld days....

I obsess over her long torso. I could never figure out why her dresses fir her the way they did until I read Edith Head’s biography. In several of her films she looks stunning.

Edith was able to camouflage her low-slung butt.

Her arms were so thin here . . .

She looked beautiful in The Lady Eve...especially when she came to dinner at the Pike house totally dolled up.

Stanwyck's work is pretty solid. From pre-Code stuff all the way through. Wonderful talent.

R599, Yet, she was sometimes referred to as "The poor man's Bette Davis".