Which jewel of the midwest would you live in?

Enid, Oklahoma

Speaking from my euro perspective and limited knowledge, the Twin Cities are the most cosmopolitan (hipsterish?) of the bunch. Would that be a correct assessment? If so, I'd pick that area.

And wow, there's really not much to do in the Nebraskas, is there? Always a red flag when only your capital is listed. 😬

*I meant [italic]Dakotas,[/italic] don't murder me!

There is only one acceptable response

What is everyone's opinion of Toledo, OH?

Omaha has some great neighborhoods with good restaurants, and charming older houses for dirt cheap.

R5 It's a very depressed region there. Some nice houses here and there, but not much going on.

I would consider Milwaukee, which has some interesting things going for it and is affordable.

It's a few hours to Chicago, if one needs an injection of uber-urban experiences.

You left out Milwaukee.

Everyone leaves out Milwaukee.

Poor Milwaukee.

Oklahoma is not, never has been, and never will be, a midwestern state.

I’ve only flown into Omaha and visited a nearby Iowa “city” for work. I was looking forward to it because I’ve only been to Chicago, not the rural midwest. I was very surprised at how hilly it was: rolling hills as far as I could see, whereas I expected it to be pancake flat. Anyway, the abundance of corn was strangely eerie. We drove for an hour and there was *nothing* but corn, and the driver told us all the corn we saw was for ethanol production or livestock feed—none fit for human consumption. And the lower areas of Iowa were all flooded and had been for many months. The area was pretty to look at but it felt sad. Our hotel was a casino resort, and the people coming and going from the casino area absolutely broke my heart. They were made of old skin, liquor fumes and the ghosts of dreams.

[quote] They were made of old skin, liquor fumes and the ghosts of dreams.

MARY!

Tulsa! Lots of good cock there

Okay, I'm not normally a peevish person. I really would like to know more about the Plains states. But it seems like Ohio has been excluded. We're in the Eastern Time Zone, and I always considered myself Eastern, until I was very hastily reminded that I was Midwestern. I actually had to look that up to confirm it. Ohio has great museums, symphony orchestras, chamber orchestras, ballet companies, and live theater. My ex-BF visits his family in Saint Louis, every now and then, and I will need to ask him. I've been to Minneapolis/St Paul, and just thought, "what a grim place to live". I've never been to the other locations.

As a middle aged partnered gay i would consider the Cleveland area but OH is not one of the choices.

Is Ohio really midwest-midwest?

Ohio, like PA, is really two states, east and west.

Eastern OH has more in common with western PA and WV, while eastern PA is bracketed with NYC and NJ.

Western OH definitely has more of a cultural feel similar to IN, and Cincinnati could be more connected to Kentucky.

But the midwest should include some of Ohio, sure.

A lot of these places have huge meth problems. I have a friend who grew up in L.A. but loves Fargo, ND. He goes there for work a few times a year and raves about it. He has piqued my curiosity since I tend to trust his opinion.

The options include St Louis and Kansas City. We drove thru Missouri last summer and it was the ugliest most depressing state I have been to. Branson was nice in a kitschy way but I thought what we saw of the rest of the state had bad vibes.

R18 Yes, drug abuse in rural areas is tragic...fortunately no one here in D.C., or in cities like NYC or L.A. or San Francisco or Baltimore abuses drugs!

st.louis best sports town AND the best weather at least winter weather of all the other cities. they st.louis are for the most part in the "sweet spot" in that they never or very very rarely get alot of snow or ice or blizzards and so on, while all around them, all the other states and cities mentioned DO. Only issue is their crime, specifically in one area that being north country and downtown north st.louis, 9 out of 10 crimes are in these areas.

i've driven thru missouri and i thought it was very pretty with it's green hills and valleys. better then flat as a pancake for the most part illinois it's sister state.

iowa seems empty, milwaukee and the twin cities just too cold and miserable during the winter and just too "north" .

kansas city is nice, great bbq..

tulsa is a nice relax place to visit, don't know if i would want to live there though..

haven't been to wichita or the other cities mentioned.

Only three large metros where at least half the homes are within reach for young middle-class families also finish in the top 10 in the Harvard-Berkeley mobility study: Salt Lake City, Pittsburgh, and Minneapolis–St. Paul. The last is particularly remarkable. The Minneapolis–St. Paul metro area is richer by median household income than Pittsburgh or Salt Lake City (or New York, or Chicago, or Los Angeles). Among residents under 35, the Twin Cities place in the top 10 for highest college-graduation rate, highest median earnings, and lowest poverty rate, according to the most recent census figures. And yet, according to the Center for Housing Policy, low-income families can rent a home and commute to work more affordably in Minneapolis–St. Paul than in all but one other major metro area (Washington, D.C.). Perhaps most impressive, the Twin Cities have the highest employment rate for 18-to-34-year-olds in the country.

who wants to freeze in minneapolis-st.paul 6 months of the year though?

J’adore Ohio. The poster from there, I mean, not the state.

I interviewed in Cleveland, at Bailey Controls, and they seem to think it hilarious that their river caught fire. Twice. We interviewed on a Saturday, and nobody would give me a straight answer as to why they were all working on a Saturday. As we were leaving, they gave each of us a 50-page psych test to take and mail back. I thought they should have a psych test. Of course I threw it away. So, back to New England I flew.

Why no Madison??

For me it would depend on the city that had the highest percentage of uncut cock.

I love Minny!

OP your a total dumb ass. Next time you post learn your regions beforehand. Oklahoma is not midwestern. North and South Dakota are parts of the plains. Not midwestern. You are just stupid and I hate you. I hope you get the AIDS. Why would any decent self respecting gay not put Chicago on there? I’m sure you are are a fat hog.

Tulsi!

What does Tulsi have to do with this conversation? You're demented R28

R27 before you call someone stupid you might want to learn how to speak and write English correctly.

R28 Many folks in Southern Missouri place a long "e" in place of a short "a" , so "Tulsi" is plausible. The town of Nixa, Missouri is sometimes pronounced Nixey.

I lived in Kansas City MO for graduate school and my first professional position. I love it and miss it. I'd move back from NYC if there were lucrative environmental or engineering employment opportunities available.

Kansas City MO is a terrific city. So pretty. Such handsome charming men too.

Such bad skin on Tulsa

I had to deliver training in Omaha once. I hope to never see that town again.

Minneapolis is okay, if really f'in cold in winter.

R32 Have you looked into Burns and McDonnell or Black and Veatch engineering firms in KC? I just retired from Burns and Mac a millionaire and I was just a clerk there.

I'd pick Chicago or Cincinnati over any of the cities on the list. Most are either too small or too cold. Chicago is cold, but at least it's a big city.

As a Chicagoan, I have always felt "Midwest" is way to much of an umbrella term. I would consider anything to the west of Minnesota, Iowa and Missouri to be a "plains state". When I think of Midwest, I generally think of the upper Midwest plus Missouri, Indiana and Ohio. I think Des Moines is nice and getting nicer. The people in Iowa have a reputation for being more genuinely nice than people in Minnesota. All that being said, if I couldn't live in Chicago, I would live in Milwaukee which is like a funkier, cheaper, rougher Chicago. It's level of segregation is ghastly though and makes Chicago look more like Montreal in terms of integration.

Assisted suicide.

No love for Detroit here? Downtown is great and suburbs can be pretty nice too!

It’s not as cold as Chicago.

Well, that's easy: none of the above.

Love love love Kansas City.

Minnesota is goals

Fix your fucking messed up roads, Detroit! And not as cold as Chicago? By what? A few degrees?

Chicago and Toronto are not on this list, and they're the top two locations. Plenty of nice suburbs as well, if you're not down with city living. The rest are fine to visit, but each have major drawbacks.

Midwest as a geographic term that includes states like Ohio, Michigan and Indiana is sort of east coast-centric, if you think about it. Those states are really nowhere near the middle of the country. The tornado alley states are the true middle of the country.

I’m shocked when folks include Plains states in their definition of Midwest

R46, Kansas and Nebraska are not the midwest?

Everything's up to date in Kansas City.

To me, when I think of midwest cities, I think of ones that have a certain feel to them. That feeling derives from a few things that these cities have in common: geography, of course, but also history, settlement patterns, industry, ethnic groups, etc. So I think of a city like Pittsburgh as being midwest because it feels much more like Chicago or Milwaukee than like Philadelphia or New York. The same applies to Omaha or Kansas City, and to a certain extent Oklahoma City and Tulsa (although they, along with St Louis, seem to be more midwest-southern hybrids). My midwest big cities would include Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Minneapolis-St Paul, Milwaukee, Des Moines, Omaha, Kansas City, and maybe St Louis, Wichita, OKC, and Tulsa.

I'm curious about Toledo, Ohio too.

Its' been mentioned here before and I'd love to hear from anybody who knows.......

I fucking hate you OP.

R24 I guess the OP was going for larger cities?

I lived in Madison. I liked it, though any city in WI or MN has a bit of provincialism about locals, and it's more noticeable in Madison, where locals decide whether or not to like you depending on where you went to high school. (Denver, btw, is much the same - locals vs newbies.)

People have argued for years whether Cleveland or Pittsburgh are part of the midwest. As someone from that area I don't think they are, but they also don't have much in common with NYC, Philly or NJ, so there's a bit of a "mid-Atlantic" or "mid-inland Atlantic" region there. It's not quite south/rural enough to be Appalachia, either.

From the list? Des Moines, because I love politics and would love the attention my city/state receives every 4 years. Caucuses sound like my kind of party! Swing states have all the fun.

[quote]What is everyone's opinion of Toledo, OH?

It has a truly excellent art museum, Tony Packo's Original Hot Dogs, and golf.

South Bend, the jewel of Indiana.

I've spent at least a couple weeks in al the towns OP listed, and Kansas City is the only one I'd consider living in. Minneapolis would beat KC if it weren't for the winters, but they're a deal breaker. St. Louis would have topped the list 30 years ago, but that town has had its heart torn out. The rest are simply too bland and boring to even consider.

Tulsa has one of the best cafes I've been to, The Blue Moon.

[quote]Chicago and Toronto are not on this list,

Perhaps because Toronto is considered Eastern?

Has anyone ever been, or know anything about, Milwaukee...

Can I write about Salt Lake City? It’s all I know and it’s boring, too.

A little bit about Ohio, that I hope makes sense: Southeastern Ohio is part of Appalachia. It's coal-mining country, and considered "the foothills of the Appalachians". Northern Ohio was once called 'The Firelands": it was reserved as financial restitution for people from Connecticut who lost their homes to the British during the Revolutionary War. So northern Ohio has a New England vibe to it, sometimes. Central Ohio was largely settled by Pennsylvania Dutch settlers. Cincinnati was a big port town, at one time. It was one of the largest cities in the US, back in the 19th century. So, it's not a very big city, but it actually sprawls into Northern Kentucky and Southeastern Indiana. There's a lot of old money here, which accounts for the fact that it has a respected symphony, opera and ballet. My BF is from Cleveland, and he loves it, and he especially loves Lake Erie. So it's not some homogeneous state: there are a lot of different influences in Ohio. And it's not that hard to drive between the major cities here.

What is Wichita like?

Milwaukee: Extremely segregated, heavy emphasis on its Polish and German origins, mildly sleazy and funky in a good way. Cheap place to live and proud to be provincial. Where Chicago gays come for sordid sex. Bikers and Leather

Someone keeps asking about Toledo. Google "the Great Black Swamp". Toledo was built right on top of reclaimed swamp land which extends for miles all around it. The soil is mucky or spongy there, and stinky, by many accounts - and drainage is awful, so you can imagine what it's like after big rainstorms, or when the snow melts in the spring. There are efforts underway to return large areas of the swamp to being a wetland, and in my opinion the city should be abandoned and allowed to return to swamp land. One acquaintance could barely sell his house there when he moved and had a big financial loss on it. I'd give it a hard pass.

No love for Duluth?

Thank you, R61. Connecticut actually had a claim to land in Northern Ohio around Revolutionary time. The land was on the same latitude as Connecticut, by appearances.

Another Cleveland fan here. Worked there for a year - commuting to NYC. Liked the down to earth people, diversity, lakefront, old housing suburbs, restaurants.

Kansas City seemed pretty. But it’s isolated.

Minneapolis has good,politics, education and economy. But the winter is brutally cold - as are the people.

Having spent a year in Fargo, I have no idea what your friend sees in it. Horrible, ugly both in nature and architecture (everything is crappy, vinyl siding boxes with minimal windows), depressing, no gay bars, like 2 good restaurants - and not only cold but almost mean people. Makes Minneapolis - the only city driveable distance but still over 4 hours away - look like Los Angeles.

None!

[quote] Has anyone ever been, or know anything about, Milwaukee...

There have been a few threads, including the one attached.

It's a smaller and slightly more affordable version of Chicago. Some pluses (there are nice neighborhoods, beautiful lakefront space, the nicest Pride fest I have ever attended) and some negatives (super conservative in the surrounding areas, very very VERY racist in some ways, and the shitty weather).

I like Cleveland but both Cleveland and Pittsburgh have some bizarre road patterns. In Pittsburgh it's at least somewhat excusable because of geography, but a lot of Cleveland seems to go in a big circle with no way to get from point A to B without taking the long way.

R3, I feel like you never hear about the capital cities of the Dakotas -- Bismarck and Pierre.

No one in Tulsa or OKC thinks they live in the Midwest

I believe they call their area of the country South Central. (Otherwise known as the Deplorable Central States). Once you get to the area where Southern Baptists outnumber all other denominations, you have arrived. (And God help you).

South Central is a good term for OKC and Tulsa. They don't really feel midwestern and they don't really feel southern. They're more of a hybrid of the two areas. I would apply that to the Kansas cities (Wichita, Topeka), the lower Missouri cities (St Louis, Joplin, Springfield) and the Texas panhandle cities (Lubbock, Amarillo).

The cowfuckers are Wisconsin and Minnesota.

Moose fuckers are Montana, Wyoming and Dakotas.

Pig fuckers are Missouri, Indiana and Iowa.

And if you're in Tennessee, Kentucky or West Virginia, you're fucking someone in your family!

R74, St. Louis definitely feels Midwestern to me.

Ohio may be lovely but no one on the East Coast thinks of it as anything but the Midwest.

Though one of you raised a good point about cities like Pittsburgh and Buffalo whose rust belt economies, immigration patterns and accents are more midwestern despite being in PA and NY respectively.

Minneapolis, as mentioned, is a great town but I could not deal with the winters.

Been to both St. Louis and KC briefly (work trips) and KC seemed more livable, there was an area downtown with lots of fountains where Mr and Mrs Bridge was set that seemed cool. Plus the barbecue.

St. Louis feels like it's ripe to be rediscovered and gentrified and you could probably score an amazing house for next to nothing.

[quote] Ohio may be lovely but no one on the East Coast thinks of it as anything but the Midwest. Though one of you raised a good point about cities like Pittsburgh and Buffalo whose rust belt economies, immigration patterns and accents are more midwestern despite being in PA and NY respectively.

I don't disagree with what you've said above, but as I said in R52, they're a bit of neither here nor there. East Coast folks think those places are in the Midwest, and Midwesterners would very much think of those cities as NOT in the midwest.

As R61 notes, SE Ohio (along with far SW PA and of course WV) is Appalachia, but THAT term also doesn't describe the Rust Belt of Buffalo/Erie/Cleveland/Pittsburgh/Youngstown, either. A few years ago some urban studies professor was trying to call it the Cleveburgh Corridor but it never really caught on (thankfully).

I tend to agree with you, R76. St Louis feels mostly midwestern to me. But there's something about it that feels southern too. Not Georgia/Mississippi/Alabama southern. More like Memphis. But on the whole, it's definitely midwestern.

And add Louisville to the midwestern list, even though it's in a state that most view as the south.

Indiana, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota, Ohio and Missouri.

That's the midwest. I will accept no debating this fact.

[Quote]But it seems like Ohio has been excluded. We're in the Eastern Time Zone, and I always considered myself Eastern

Eastern? Is Ohio on the east coast? Then it is not part of the east.

Kansas City just got free public transit, so that’s a shoe in

[quote] Jewel of the midwest?

Jewell, Kansas

R81, I know it's an archaic term, but there is nothing geographically or culturally west about some of these midwest states like Ohio. They're midway to the plains and that's about it. From a western perspective, they should call them the mideast😂.

R80, completely agree.

[quote]who wants to freeze in minneapolis-st.paul 6 months of the year though?

To be fair, it's really only a bit over four months - and you really do get used to it. At least when it's cold you can layer up, as opposed to Summer in the south when it can get so hot and humid you can barely breathe. Last year was unusually brutal on the snow front here, but there were very few prolonged Arctic events. And then there's May to October to enjoy the abundant lakes, the rivers and the parks. There is water everywhere - and unlike other fresh water abundant places like Florida, Georgia and Louisiana, there are no nasty gators or water moccasins you have to share it with. As a person with an extreme fear of poisonous snakes - Minnesota is heaven. Aside from a few river bluffs in the far Southeastern corner of the state, we're among a small handful of fang free places in the continental US. And as a metro area, few other flyover cities can match the region on the arts, food culture or recreational opportunities. Plus until you hit the far reaches of suburbia it's now astonishingly blue. The last two bastions of upscale suburban red turned solidly blue in 2018. The metro's congressional delegation now consists of a long serving ultra liberal woman, a very out lesbian with a wife and kids who replaced a former right wing shock jock (think Rush Limbaugh on the Prairie), the liberal Jewish scion of a liquor manufacturing clan - who is the first democrat to hold his seat in nearly 50 years (and did so comfortably), and of course Somali immigrant and frequent Trump Twitter rant trigger Ilhan Omar.

R20 you’re mad.

St Louis is in the middle of Tornado alley. I “celebrated” every birthday in a neighbor’s basement, usually under a table. Winters were bitterly cold, and we frequently had storms that dropped two feet or more of snow.

I hated it. Left right after high school graduation, never looked back.

There's the MIdwest, then there are the Plains States.

[quote] Indiana, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota, Ohio and Missouri. That's the midwest.

Ohio is

NOT

part of the Midwest.

NOT.

Oklahoma City and Tulsa are absolutely not in the Midwest. They are in the Southwest.

R87, just WHEN did this all happen?? i have family that lives near st.louis and they have had 1 tornado in years and suffered themselves no damage and as far as snow? only about 4 years or so ago did they have a more then a few snowfalls. otherwise? at best 1 or 2 snows the entire winter season, and NOTHING like somewhere up north, ala chicago, milwaukee, minneapolis-st.paul get.

st.louis is always 10 or so degrees warmer then chicago weather summer or more importantly winter, and that goes even more so for the cities mentioned that are north of chicago.

R87 i grew up there from 1961 to 1978. That you “have family” there doesn’t give you the experience.

R89, Oklahoma is definitely not the southwest. They don't eat Mexican-inspired food, inspire desert motif art, and attract New Age ladies in flowy clothes.

R89, uh, you're wrong. Ohio is DEFININTELY Midwestern. It's considered as the state where the Midwest begins.

Hmm.

Missouri exists for the sole purpose of making Iowans feel better about themselves.

R92, the fact i have family there NOW and who have lived there for years who tell me all about the weather means a heck alot more then someone who hasn't been here in 41 years!...

Nope, Ohio is definitely part of the midwest.

St Louis is not horrible in many ways. Beautiful suburbs and a gayborhood. Cheap. But ridiculously desegregated - and the city, including the gayborhood, is crime filled with guns. Read that 2 of the 10 most dangerous intersections in the country were within walking distance of the gayborhood,

It seems to have become more of a suburban city with most of the jobs and middle class neighborhoods in the outer suburbs. The center is scarily desolate. But I had fun in the gayborhood - which most midwestern cities lack.

^ segregated - obviously. Drove through areas around Ferguson and it was weird. Seemingly classic middle class neighborhood - but an air of menace and poverty with groups of kids staring me down as I drove through the neighborhood.

st.louis is that rare of cities, (perhaps it's not so rare nowadays) that quote "no one lives in the city" but in the county and all around.. for example, the population of st.louis is only around 350 thousand which is shocking for such a well known established city, a internationally known city, however, if you add in the metropolitan area it's over 2 million!

From 1850 to 1960, St Louis was in the top ten largest cities in the US, reaching number 4 in 1900 & 1910. Now it's not even the largest city in Missouri.

Chicago

I'd consider Minneapolis

Would be curious what city and MSA popualrion numbers are for the poll cities. My guess is Minneapolis /St. Paul is much bigger - which is why so many chose it.

R97 Again, like a millennial, you have a poor grasp of elementary logic.

I've been back frequently for work. My family still lives there. Ipso facto - I know the area well. My parents are buried there. Stop being an ass. You aren't from there, you're relying on an appeal to authority.

Now, do fuck off back to your avocado toast.

St Louis used to have 850k people living in the city limits, now it is down to 300k. Dramatic fall.

[quote] I'd pick Chicago or Cincinnati over any of the cities on the list.

That's exactly why I didn't include Chicago on the poll. It would obviously win by a landslide here.

Cincinnati? You mean " Porkopolis," the incubator of conservatism? More culture than Columbus, but then, Gary, Indiana has more culture than Columbus.

I think Nebraska, The Dakotas, Kansas and Oklahoma would be The Great Plains.

I first discovered St, Louis in the. 70's when it was full of civic minded corporations like Ralston Purina, Anheuser-Busch, Monsanto, and McDonnell Douglas were all there and very active in the community. Those are just the headline companies, they're the tip of the iceberg, and they're all gone.

Add TWA to that list

I grew up near Cleveland and always thought of it as the Midwest solely because of its geography. I found after moving to the east coast it had more in common with parts of NJ or metro Philly than it did with cities like Cincinnati, Columbus, or Indianapolis. I'm old enough to remember when this region was referred to as The Greart Lakes States--which makes more sense as to commonalities. SO glad I got out of there in '81!!

I have never heard of the The Great Plains as something separate from the midwest. Interesting. Wonder if that is a regionalism?

Really R112?

I am a born and bred NYer and quite familiar with it--the Plains states have larger farms, fewer big cities, were not reliant on river trade and were settled by different groups of immigrants and different times in history and were also largely settled in the years after the Civil War.

Midwestern cities are (largely) either on one of the Great Lakes or along the Mississippi or Ohio Rivers.

R102.. st.louis is still the biggest METROPOLITAN area/city in missouri..

R109.. other companies have taken over from anheiser-busch and monsanto, ralston purina is still there in st.louis.

R105... you and i are not that different! my family lives there too, i've been there to visit as well frequently, YOU yourself haven't lived there in 41 years that you made mention yourself. oh and p.s. i'm NOT a millenial either.

Kenosha, Wisconsin. Friendly, growing city on Lake Michigan, midway between Milwaukee and Chicago.

r112, you thought everything in the middle of the country before you get to the West Coast was the midwest?

R116, no. Definitely not the mountain states nor the southwestern ones. Flat, corn-growing, agricultural states like Kansas, Nebraska, and Iowa are what I've always considered peak midwest though. Unlike the incorrectly named TV show, they are right in the middle.

Hey, YourMillennialCunt, what about The Olive Garden? I know you must be holding your comments about The Olive Garden in right now. Let 'em rip!

Milwaukee, maybe. Cheap housing but Wisconsin has high taxes. It's two hours to Chicago, making the idea of life there somewhat more attractive. Not just white where it's white though: almost Aryan. And cold.

I keep looking at Racine real estate. Not a big city, I know, but there's lakefront housing at ridiculously low prices and it's closer to Chicago. Why? Still cold, though.

St. Louis is another Detroit: hollowed out/scary urban core; all the life/money/business is in the suburbs. I mean, the (now-resigned-in-disgrace) Governor's wife was mugged in downtown St. Louis.

As for the drug problems: everywhere has drug problems. It's just that some of these places seem overwhelmed by them because there's not much to offset the negatives. There are drugs in the big coastal cities, too, but there's also a lot of economic success in those places to offset the downsides.

[quote]Perhaps because Toronto is considered Eastern?

Or maybe it's because IT'S IN CANADA.

[quote] so that’s a shoe in

Oh, dear.

[quote]Caucuses sound like my kind of party!

You DO realized that they don't necessarily involve cocks, right?

"so that’s a shoe in"

...and we all know how painful THAT can be.

I first discovered St, Louis in the. 70's when it was full of civic minded corporations like Ralston Purina, Anheuser-Busch, Monsanto, and McDonnell Douglas were all there and very active in the community. Those are just the headline companies, they're the tip of the iceberg, and they're all gone.

They are all still in St. Louis and still have a major presence there: Ralston Purina is now owned by Nestle and is headquarters of its Pet Care division as well as it's IT hub. Anheuser Busch still has a plant there and is headquarters for the North American division of InBev, a Belgian conglomerate. Monsanto is now owned by Bayer and has large research operations in suburban STL with plans for even bigger facilities. McDonnell Douglas was purchased by Boeing and is the manufacturing site for Boeing's defense system division.

That is not to say losing these four large corporate headquarters has not been detrimental to the St. Louis economy. In addition, AT&T moving out of St. Louis to Texas did not help. It's former 38 story headquarters building is now vacant and in foreclosure.

I grew up in Omaha and you couldn't pay me to move back. I'm really not a midwest person at all. But I've been to KC, St. Louis and (briefly) Minneapolis way back when. MN is just too fucking cold for me to contemplate. It'd have to be between KC, which allegedly has seen some improvements over the years...or St. Louis. I really liked Forest Park and some of the old homes in St. Louis, plus it's a short flight to Chicago when you need a real cosmopolitan city. Columbia is a nice little college town too.

We are thankful you don't like the cold

All these places are quite livable, the key is to take advantage of the low cost of living and get the Hell out every month or so. Get on Southwest and go to LA or NY for long weekends then go back to Omaha and vegetate until it's time to do it again.

The only problem with them long term is you miss the ride on the real estate appreciation train. After 20 years in Omaha you don't have the equity in your house to ever make the move to anywhere with high priced real estate unless you make the effort to invest in alternatives or buy a rental property in someplace expensive like Los Angeles. Figure that out though, and its not a bad life. Your cost of living is a joke--not just housing but things like auto insurance that's a fraction of what it costs in major urban areas all add up to a very nice standard of living.

What does DL have to say about Indianapolis? I never hear anything about it at all.

I lived in Omaha (well Council Bluffs) and Des Moines.

Des Moines was nice. Smaller town but not like "small town" where everyone knows each other. Lots of insurance jobs if you have a background in that. Nice people. The fair is fun ... once.

Pass on Omaha.

There are neighborhoods full of beautiful homes in the St. Louis suburbs - grand, elegant, probably reasonably affordable 1920’s brick houses that are really charming.

There are also lovely parks and good restaurants.

Earlier this week, I'd found this chart of the 50 richest places in America (via Bloomberg)

Ladue, MO, which appears to be a suburb of St. Louis is at #22, one of the only places in the midwest outside Chicago. So there (a) must be some high paying jobs there still and (b) you can likely live really well in St. Louis on a salary that would just be "pretty good" on the coasts or even Chicago.

R131 Indian Hill, Ohio is #11 on that list. It's part of the Cincinnati metropolitan area. Former home of Neil Armstrong, Peter Frampton and Marge Schott.

[quote]What does DL have to say about Indianapolis? I never hear anything about it at all.

Damn it, R128!

R114 indeed. If you have St Louis “knowledge”, please explain: What school did you go to?

What appetizer is ubiquitous?

What’s the Coldwater Creek story? How many of your family are affected?

My family are one of the original settler families of Missouri. You’re just a poseur.

Did someone mention Jewel of the midwest?

R129 I lived in Des Moines too. It was pleasant enough in the warm months (winters were hell), but provincial. People have insisted for years that it’s the Next Big Hipster Town. It is not.

R128, I haven't lived there, but I've been there pretty frequently. It has a pleasant, walkable downtown. My BF really likes it, so we make frequent road trips there. But it's just so flat (which sort of weirds me out).

We're all in agreement that the Midwest has a horrible climate - bitter cold in winter, hot and humid in the summer, tornado risk - but it has those conditions in common with the Northeast, so New Yorkers and Bostonians can't really downgrade the central states for THAT. The Great Lakes all have beaches, so that partially compensates for the lack of ocean. There's nothing scenic in the Midwest - no mountains, very few hills, flat, featureless. What the better Midwestern cities can offer is a good standard of living for less money. I think we all understand that it takes a 6 figure salary to live really well in the major coastal cities (East or West) . Yes, NYC is exciting, but living on the 6th floor of a walkup that you have to share in Manhattan and paying $2500/month for the privilege does not equate to living well. If you have to work 60 hours a week to make enough money to live in the coastal cities, by definition you are not going to have the time or energy to take advantage of the so-called cultural advantages. Yes, there are more people on Grindr within easy reach, but if neither of you can have unscheduled guests because of roommates, that's not an advantage either.

So, depending on your profession, the Midwest can offer a better standing of living - a more comfortable and beautiful home, easier commute, less expensive shopping, time and leisure and cash to go to plays, symphonies, operas. However, if you're a high roller in the financial sector, earning $150,000/year or more, of course living in NYC is going to be the logical choice.

I live in the West and I'm very glad I don't have to live in the Midwest, but I'm in a medium sized inland city, so I get the choices involved.

[quote]Would be curious what city and MSA popualrion numbers are for the poll cities. My guess is Minneapolis /St. Paul is much bigger - which is why so many chose it.

Des Moines, Iowa- Metro 655,409

Fargo, ND Metro- 245,471

Oklahoma City, OK MSA 1,396,445

Kansas City, MO-KS MSA 2,143,651

Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI MSA 3,629,190

Omaha-Council Bluffs, NE-IA MSA 942,198

Wichita, KS MSA 644,888

St. Louis, MO-IL MSA 2,805,465

Tulsa, OK MSA 993,797

Yes, Minneapolis is easily the biggest city of the list.

The Dalles, Oregon.

R138, I agree. I only work 40 hrs a week, but my house is paid for, and I have enough disposable income to travel, and go to the ballet and opera pretty regularly. And it's not really all the cold in the winter, where I live. It rarely goes below zero F.

And the Great Lakes states have the water, so fuck you, Southwest.

[quote]And it's not really all the cold in the winter, where I live. It rarely goes below zero F.

Please try saying this to someone who lives on the west coast or in the south.

You’re awesome R139. Really surprising info. Confirming St Louis area is thriving and populous - but no gays want to live there. Kansas City pop is very surprising - guess it is a growth city. And how OKC has so many people is beyond me. Why don’t they just move to Dallas?

I wouldn't say St Louis is thriving r144. Even the metro area is pretty stagnant, since 2010 it has only grown by 0.9%. Of the top 25 metros in the US, that's third worst in growth behind Chicago and Detroit.

R138, you are incorrect. There is plenty scenic in the UPPER Midwest--think the rolling hills of Wisconsin, the hundreds (maybe thousands) of lakes in Minnesota and Wisconsin, the Michigan upper peninsula, etc. Indiana is the most boring state, geographically speaking. If you ever wondered what Illinois would be without Chicago, just drive through Indiana, America's fucking armpit.

And if some here consider the plains as part of the Midwest, Kansas is beautiful in parts. So many rolling hills that are truly stunning.

Minneapolis/St Paul is the only option that has a major international airport so you can quickly escape from America’s stanky Midwestern armpit.

The Hocking Hills in Ohio are pretty scenic: plenty of gorges and cliffs: I usually rent a cabin there every year, and go hiking every day. I the Lake Erie shore has plenty of scenic lighthouses, and cute little islands.

Missouri also has the Ozarks. So it isn't true that the Midwest isn't scenic.

R119 Racine and Kenosha are pleasant and certainly cheaper than downtown MKE or the northern Chicago suburbs (plus there's a Metra train not far away). But it *IS* Paul Ryan's old district, which I worry about culturally......

I don't know if weather would inform my decision much if I found a place I liked. Most cities in the US outside of coastal California have 2 to 3 months of the year where weather is either too cold or too hot. Palm Springs sounds ideal....except for the 8-12 weeks of 120 degree temps.

The scenic hills of NYC

In the Fall the drive across Missouri from KC to St. Louis has fall foliage that's as spectacular as anything New England has to offer.

[quote]What appetizer is ubiquitous?

I've been to St Louis only a handful of times and even I know the answer to that.

[quote] There's nothing scenic in the Midwest - no mountains, very few hills, flat, featureless.

R138, I want to visit more of Michigan. What little I have seen of it -- a portion of their coast, with wineries and rolling sand dunes -- I was impressed by. The upper peninsula sounds wild and pretty. I am part of a gay men's group who has five guys formerly from Michigan (all relocated to California) and the wilderness sounds lovely. Winters do sound brutal though.

R155, I'm not a camper but I hear there is lots of great gay camping groups that head to Northern Michigan and the rest of the state.

R155 I've heard good things about Upper Michigan.

I fell in love with Saugatuck/Douglas/Holland. Just thought it was so charming.

I've read many wonderful things about Michigan's Upper Peninsula. And, Michigan also includes Isle Royale.

The Lake Erie Lighthouse tour.

[quote]I've read many wonderful things about Michigan's Upper Peninsula.

My Mother, tragically, got the Upper Peninsula confused with the Outer Banks.

R159 Some of the areas near Sandusky are OK, but Ashtabula isn't called Ass Tray Beulah for nothing.....

Fuck anyone that said Kansas City over St. Louis

r138 here. I'm going to link some pictures then rest my case.

Marblehead, Ohio is very pretty. And I've read a lot of nice things about the Indiana Dunes. My sister lives in Chicago, but she and her boyfriend love Milwaukee.

Or this

This map reflects the Midwestern United States as defined by the Census Bureau, which is followed in many sources according to Wikipedia.

R165 - that was the only interesting thing in Fargo. Watching sunset over cornfields with a never ending flat horizon. After seeing it once, I’m done. Sunset over the Pacific, however, never gets old.

Here's one of the issues: you have to decide what kind of things are important to you. My BF and I went to Indianapolis not too long ago, and the whole city was awash with people wearing Colts (I think, but I'm sort of stupid) jerseys. Well, I don't give one tiny fuck about sports, so I felt like an invader. On the other hand, Indiana has Muscatatuck, where I've been able to see river otters for the first time in the wild. And witnessed sandhill cranes during their migration. I enjoy the arts, and many Midwestern cities have stellar museums. One of the nice things about many of our states is that it's not really that difficult to visit another city without flying. My BF drives back to Cleveland pretty much every other week to visit his family, and my sister takes the Megabus down from Chicago to visit Cincinnati.

R168, that's a great point. The Midwest has a reputation for being anti-art and anti-education which I don't think is true--definitely not in the Upper Midwestern states or Chicago. The Art Institute is one of the best art museums ever. I feel like a lot of people conflate the plains states with the other Midwestern states. To be fair, the term Midwestern doesn't really help the entire region very much. It's like people didn't know what to call those groups of states so they just said "we're almost out west, so let's just call this the middle west". It doesn't do the region any favors, especially with people who refer to this area as "flyover".

R134 i suspect you mean toasted ravioli on the hill...

although personally i'll take some ted drew's off of watson and hampton avenue off of 44...

and i also know that is a typical question asked of those who live in and around st.louis "what high school did you go to"...

family wasn't affected by the coldwater creek poisoning, NOR would they near the dioxin poisoning in the now ghost town that is times beach either!

what else you got? remember it's YOU who said you hadn't live there since 1978, 41 years ago, not me! 41 years ago, the winters were longer and their WAS MORE snow back then...

and i'm the poseur? did you PERSONALLY know your ancestors that settled in missouri? i don't think so, and what does that have to do with anything! face it, my family lives there, just like yours, i've been there and visited there just as much as you have, your just mad because i don't agree with you and called you out on your living there 41 years ago and now your THEE expert and everyone else isn't..

Any opinions about Dubuque, Iowa? It looks really picturesque in the Fall.

My sister went to college in college (Grinnell),When we visited, we enjoyed the Amana colones. The pig farms seem ubiquitious, )sp_ but the stench was pretty awful.. I did enjoy see lots of pheasants.

R170 is not one of the jewels of the Midwest.

Give it up, girl.

[quote] my sister takes the Megabus down from Chicago to visit Cincinnati.

LOL. That's a 4.5 to 5 hour bus trip versus a 1 hour and 20 minute flight.

I can take a bus from New York to Miami too, were I feeling particularly masochistic.

Dubuque is really isolated and boring. Not completely ugly. Some cliffs near river. Less flat than lots of Midwest. But having worked there for a few months, I would never consider living there. Absolutely nothing to do.

R113, I guess that makes sense. Growing up, when I was taught the basic geography of the US in elementary school, the teacher highlighted the Plain states as quintessential midwest -- conflating the area with that term because of it's middle-ness. I mean, I realize that the Great Lakes states are midwestern, but the semantics of the term is confusing. To us out here in the actual west, there is nothing western about those states.

R175 Thanks for the input.

[quote]That's a 4.5 to 5 hour bus trip versus a 1 hour and 20 minute flight.

And how much time to you have to add on either end for flights? I'm not the person who posted this, but a 1:20 flight is going to take at least four hours, especially if the place you're flying to is far away from your final destination. At least buses (and trains) drop you off in a central location.

Yes just saying the time a plane is in the air is absurdly misleading. There is much more time involved in flying than that.

There is a reason the train between NY and DC is more popular than flying. Not having to deal with the headaches involved in airports is worth it for shorter distances.

R156, I would love to visit Isle Royale and make a whole kayaking/camping trip of it. It looks serene.

The easy train access to so many cities is a major plus for the Northeast. The isolation of cities in the Midwest is essential to their nature. It’s why it is so quintessentially American - and foreign to not only Europeans but even Northeasterners. The isolation breeds a very different mindset. Republican values make more sense when you understand their isolation and absence of exposure to much outside a relatively small population in their specific region.

It’s why Minneapolis’ liberal politics are so surprising. Definitely something in the remnants of Scandinavian culture that must contribute. But also contributes a very reserved social interaction.

R150 The Ozarks were still in rebellion years after the War. Bushwhacking originated there.

R170 you really are an impossible fraud. Of course I have the records: the deeds of trust, birth records, marriage records and military records including pensions from the Revolutionary War.

My family settled in Missouri in the Boot Heel in 1834. The area was hostile and settlers died in alarming numbers. We owned land there, down through Poplar Bluff and in Northern Arkansas until the 1990s.

Now, shoo.

If you want a true gauge, just go to Zillow and look up real estate in the different cities and things will start making sense. Also, if you stick to college towns, you'll be in more educated and liberal enclaves. Lawrence, Kansas, is very liberal and is less than 30 minutes from downtown Kansas City.

God. Are you 2 bitches still arguing over who is the queen of Missouri? Let it go!!!

R185 seriously! No one gives a fuck!

There is a world of difference between train travel and bus travel R178 and R179

You don't catch a lot of business types taking the Greyhound from New York to DC.

Though lots of college kids do take those Chinatown buses.

I'm R168. Air travel is a huge pain in the ass. Of course I've flown all over the place. I'm not planning to take a bus from Ohio to Florida (too much Midnight Cowboy there) or California. But the drive from Chicago to Cincinnati is incredibly boring. My sister says the Megabus has great WiFi, so she just brings her laptop, and works the whole time. And I can pick her up from the University of Cincinnati, a mile away, just a few minutes after she gets off the bus. We have thread after thread here on DL about the horrors of air travel. YourMillenialCunt, I'm not sure why you consider yourself an expert on the Midwest. I guess you don't really live in Manhattan, but in a trailer park in Indiana.

R181, are you speaking about Montana? You are speaking of two different Midwests. The states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Michigan are hardly isolated. This is the 21st century,you know. We do have cars; no more horse an buggies ( except in Amish country). We also have electronic devices ( no more smoke signals). So, while your observation might seem profound, for the eastern Midwest and ,I dare to say, pretty much the entire Midwest, you display an amazing lack of perception of modern society.

Sorry, but St. Louis is forever tainted in the rest of the country’s minds by what went on in Ferguson.

Encouraging someone to take a flight between Chicago and Cincinnati rather than some public transportation like the Megabus is so incredibly wasteful.

[quote]You don't catch a lot of business types taking the Greyhound from New York to DC. Though lots of college kids do take those Chinatown buses.

No one takes the greyhound and those Chinatown buses are for those who are *really* trying to save money.

But there are many options like Boltbus, Megabus, Peter Pan, Go Bus, Ourbus, Coach. All incredibly popular. There is a huge demand for bus service along the northeast corridor even though trains are an option.

Madison is better than any of the cities mentioned. Overwhelmingly liberal and progressive (with two gays--Tammy Baldwin and Mark Pocan--in Congress), very cosmopolitan for its size (plenty of transplants from CA, NYC and international cities). Great restaurants (ethnic and otherwise). Very cold winters, yes, but summers are glorious and fall is breathtaking. Very active gay scene.

True, it's not as affordable as it used to be, but compared to the coasts, it's relatively inexpensive.

I know nothing about riding the bus these days, but I saw a YouTube video where someone rode a wonderful looking sleeper bus in Europe. It was like one of those Japanese capsule hotels on wheels, with a comfy little cabin/bed for every passenger. Is there anything like that in the USA yet?

R193 HAHAHA. No.

Thank god none of those hell holes.

Long distance trains in America do have sleeper compartments, but bus service has nothing but the seat. You don't want to do a bus over a long distance you can avoid it.

There's a sleeper bus between LA and San Francisco:

R195, we in flyover country envy you so much.

Good luck in the Witness Protection Program, OP.

R5 The best thing about Toledo are the highways heading out of town towards Cleveland.

What about Osh Kosh?

R185 I have almost all my own teeth. #WINNING

R192 If I were living in Wisconsin, I’d choose Madison. It’s intellectual, relaxed, a lot of high end jobs in genetic engineering and health care informatics. Traffic on the Beltline blew during Homecoming.

It’s a great place, despite being in a pretty conservative area.

Actually, R203, the entire county (Dane) that Madison is surrounded by is overwhelmingly liberal. Even the farmers out in the country are liberal.

R 198, you forgot this

And this.

R205, holy shit. Those rats are gigantic. Never seen rats that big!

We live in Cincinnati and often visit Columbus Indiana which is full of modernist architecture. We love it here in the Midwest, the house is paid off, travel when we want, plenty of museums close by and 4 seasons of weather. Also our families are close by and accepting. The worm has turned, nothing in NYC that seems attractive anymore.

Even our vermin are bigger in NYC, R207.

R204 The Milwaukee Urinal Sentinel certainly believes Madison is one-sided. My family there is pretty split: the sensible ones are Democrat. The irrational ones are extremely vocal, extremely loud Republicans. I can't stand to be around them.

Which one is the gay friendliest?

Which towns/suburbs within 40 minutes of Cleveland are recommended for partnered New englanders with about 300k to spend on a 3br/2ba home? We are not churchy and are redneck averse. Thx!

R211, Madison is known to be very gay friendly.

R212, the most liberal city in Ohio is Lakewood, which is a Cleveland suburb about 10 minutes from downtown. Real estate is booming. And, you have to dig very deeply to find Republicans.

Or, R212, you can always look at Shaker Hts.

R214 I had two old spinster aunts that lived on Clifton in the 60's. Loved going there from the East Side to visit them.

Good suggestions on Cleveland suburbs. Shaker Heights is richer and more solid investment perhaps. But also more families and more expensive.

I like Lakewood because it was walkable to lake and gay bar(s) and a few restaurants. Also a straight shot to downtown. Also cheaper. For that money and being gay, Lakewood probably is best.

R212 - Lakewood and parts of Westlake are good options for you. Lakewood is perhaps the center of gay culture in Cleveland (although it just feels diverse and progressive verses "gay" per se). This town is VERY accessible to downtown. 300K will buy you a nice home, but they are OLDER and require someone who can appreciate/pu-up-with antiquated floor plans and possible electrical updates. Lots in Lakewood are generally small unless close to the lake (which will be higher than the price range you desire). As you are coming from New England, older homes should be nothing new. Lakewood is very pedestrian and full of unique restaurants and shopping (chain stores are limited by design). Westlake is more suburban - the homes will be newer, the lots larger and the shopping more "standard" suburban. Rocky River is a generally pricier option but is very accessible to both Lakewood and Westlake and has lots of great shopping. Avon and Avon Lake are great options due to much lower taxes (Lake County verses Cuyahoga County) - both are more suburban but have plenty of shopping. I would also take a look at Fairview Park. These are just the options on the Westside.

R212 Oberlin has small town charm and culture and has almost become a suburb of Cleveland. But the college is in a bit of disarray at the moment but lots of good people live there.

R212 This could be a New England charmer with some work

South Bend, Indiana

Thanks for the Cleveland suburb tips! Super helpful. From a quick peek some of these Older homes are enormous! Is that typical?

Yes, many old Tudors. I grew up off Fairmount in Cleveland Heights. Google street view for some sights!

Columbus is known as the best gay city in Ohio.

R212 Where are you in New England? Unless you're in Wellesley or Brookline or Newton or Concord MA where it all goes to the schools or places like Kennebunkport, ME or anywhere in NH, CT, or RI the property taxes in Ohio might shock you. They did me. I saw some nice, decent (as above, older and needing some work) four bedroom places in Shaker Heights for $300,000 but with $10K plus property tax bills.

One example below: buy for $289,000; taxes $13,500. I live near Boston in a two bedroom, two bath condo worth about $900K. My property taxes are $4100 a year. My place would cost someone three times as much as a four bed, four bath center-entrance Colonial in Shaker Heights but their property tax bill is three times mine?

Ohio's state income taxes are a little lower, but some cities and towns in Ohio levy additional local income taxes. Sales taxes range from a bit less (5.75% base rate in OH, 6.25 in MA) to more (up to 8% in OH depending on the county and city - MA stays at 6.25%.) But the property taxes are sky high by comparison.

I would give Flint, MI a try. It is the hometown of my mother's family, and there is a hell of a lot more going on there than dirty water and a high crime rate. 'Affordable' is an understatement.

R225 I’m from coastal Connecticut so I’m used to high taxes.

Columbus is great for millennials who enjoy the bar scene. It is completely devoid of culture when compared to any other city its size or to the two other large cities in the state.

R228, Yes, Columbus has a great gay scene. But the culture isn't there, (although it's not absent). That's sort of the beauty: it offers: great works of art, not large drive bites. I'm one of the shyest drivers around, but I've somehow managed to explore the entire state. R239 sort of swellled my heart, by acknowledging what Cleveland and Cincinnati can deliver. I actually was exposed to the Symphony, Orchestra, Opera, and Ballet back when I was a young page boy. Its all the past.

[quote]I would give Flint, MI a try. It is the hometown of my mother's family, and there is a hell of a lot more going on there than dirty water and a high crime rate. 'Affordable' is an understatement.

I'm sold. That house is fantastic!

R226 That is gorgeous and the heavy lifting (radiant heat) is done. The woods are stunning. And the Zestimate put the price at less than they were asking.

Can they drink the water now? Is anything happening in Flint - that was Buick's HQ: are they still there? - or is there some kind of revival? Otherwise it's gorgeous but who's living there now?

Detroit's 70 miles away.

Flint. From USA Today

2. Flint, Mich. Population: 97,379 Median home value: $28,200 Poverty rate: 44.5% Pct. with at least a bachelor's degree: 10.5% Flint is second-worst city to live in in both Michigan and the United States as a whole. Some 44.5% of Flint's population lives below the poverty line, the highest poverty rate of any city in the country. Financial hardship in the city is precipitated in part by a lagging job market. The city's 9.8% unemployment rate is double the annual U.S. unemployment rate of 4.9%. The city may be an unattractive place for many employers and small business owners to operate in, both because of high crime rates and the relatively small college-educated population. Flint's violent crime rate of 1,587 incidents per 100,000 people is more than triple the state violent crime rate. Also, only 10.5% of city residents have a bachelor's degree, about a third of the 31.3% share of American adults.

I’m shocked that real estate taxes are higher in Ohio than Boston! That rules out one of the main benefits of moving there. Real rate taxes are a black hole of expense - especially if you don’t have kids in school. You have to keep paying it in perpetuity and it’s guaranteed to keep increasing.

I wouldn't consider it "living" in any of those places. More like existing.

Jewel? All I see are list of cubic zirconia.

R171, Dubuque is located in the prettiest corner of the Midwest, imo - southwestern Wisconsin, northeastern Illinois, southeastern Iowa, southeastern Minnesota. Rolling bluffs and high hills with farms interspersed with forests and the Mississippi river and creeks and streams running down to it. Swiss settlers chose southwestern Wisconsin since it looked so much like home.

Yeah, it's a drive to get anywhere cosmopolitan, but if you want quiet and very, very scenic, that's the best part of the Midwest. Madison and the Twin Cities are a few hours away. Madison's your best shot if you want a larger city in a rural/semirural area.

Better taxes on R226 than in Ohio but a scary place to invest let alone live? Too bad - great house. The rooms have the luxury of space with the depth to separate the bedrooms with walls of teak and the built-ins. And the front-loading washer/drier combo!!! If there's nothing much happening, though, it's a bit distant from where things are happening. And maybe less safe if public services suffer there with half the people there living in poverty. But Flint has pretty good airline service feeding O'Hare, Charlotte and Atlanta for a struggling city of 100,000 or so: someone's going there.

A garage parking spot (condo-style) in some East Coast cities can sell for more than this incredible house. Tragic.

I am curious about Tulsa. Does anyone on DL live in Tulsa? What's it like?

R236, the area is known as The Driftless. I think it is a well-studied region since it is one of the few rural regions outside of New England that is consistently votes Democrat.

R238, if you love the outdoors, you will like Tulsa. And if you love conservative Republians with oil money, you will love it even more.

I'm sorry to be shallow, but looking @R28, she has awful skin.

R240, seriously? People with oil money live in Tulsa? That's sounds strange to me. I mean why wouldn't they live in TX if they're wealthy? It's not that far.

R242, I was kidding somewhat, but there is oil money in Oklahoma. And Oklahona is FILLED with republicans, everywhere. I haven't been to the area but I know many people who have gone to school there. All of them were excited to get out of there the minute they could.

I always had the impression that Tulsa was at least somewhat liberal compared to the rest of the state. Like a small liberal city in a sea of red. Guess I was wrong.

These places really need gentrification so that liberals can take over.

[quote]I am curious about Tulsa. Does anyone on DL live in Tulsa? What's it like?

Don't even consider it! My favorite live on the wild side (coke snorting, radio ad selling, married to a different hot man every few years- and fucking the rest) cousin, moved to Oklahoma for a radio job. In less than a decade she was a born again Christian, married to a dentist, Rush Limbaugh talking point spewing red stater. She still smoked 120's like a pro and swore like a sailor - but she bought into every Fox, Drudge and Breitbart talking point and conspiracy theory imaginable. Oklahoma (the reddest state in the US) just does something to people who move there.

Oklahoma City is a tad more liberal than Tulsa, but not as pretty

Oklahoma is to Texas what Indiana is to Illinois.

Oklahoma City has almost no zoning. You'll find a car mechanic next to a church next to a strip club next to a day care.

Damn, R246. I didn't imagine Tulsa was THAT bad. For some reason, I thought of it being like a Des Moines where it's not quite liberal compared to NYC, but like purple and certainly liberal for the Midwest.

Oral Roberts ministry is based in Tulsa. What did you expect?

Good God, I didn't know that about Oral Roberts. Yeesh. Long time since I heard that name. I always thought he was southern.

So basically, if you're a minority (ie., not a white, hetero, Christian), you're fucked in Tulsa, let alone Oklahoma as a whole.

"I wouldn't consider it "living" in any of those places. More like existing."

R 234's palatial Manhattan estate.

[quote]Oral Roberts ministry is based in Tulsa. What did you expect?

I did Oral, but I won't do anal.

A co-worker originally from St. Louis told me about 25 years ago that Tulsa had great thrift stores. That would have mattered to me then, but soon I would have an eBay watch list and wait for things to come to me. I miss the thrill of the hunt, but things change. Oh ... re Tulsa and rich oil people: there must be historical precedent for it. Fifty-five years ago, the Beverly Hillbillies character named Mr. Brewster was the intermediary between the Clampett oil fortune and banker Drysdale. Brewster was headquartered in Tulsa.

Not just thrift stores, R255. If you drive around Oklahoma, especially around Tulsa, you'll come across these dying small towns with the most amazing architecture sitting empty. When the oil boom hit it must have been like the Silicone Valley of its day.

^^^ Sorry. Make that Silicon Valley, not Silicone Valley, that's something else entirely.

This is like Sophie's Choice...

If Sophie hated all of her children.

Tulsa is just THERE. Not much else to say about it. The "town" (not quite a city IMO) has a couple decent restaurants and a few tiny department stores still left the last time I visited. There are some beautiful neighborhoods, but I have no idea what these people actually do there (my guess is that they travel to real cities and very often). The good news is that the airport is virtually vacant, well-designed and easy to get in and out of with little effort. Utica Square is sort of the "cosmopolitan center" of the city and is...well....OK at best. Tulsa reminds me of the Bentonville/Rogers, AR area. Tons of big-money Walmart execs live there for their careers and all of them (and there spouses) travel to NYC, Los Angeles, Dallas, etc. to shop and entertain themselves - then fly back home. There is very little to "do" in this part of the country.

What R258 said. It's like Sophie's Choice, but if the mom were Casey Anthony.

This is why I don't understand why these people whine about immigration so much. Clearly, tons of immigrants aren't clamoring to move to their boring, empty cities. Heaven forbid they do and the food starts to improve and you get a little more culture.

Why isn’t Chicago on the list?

No “suicide pod” option?

Midrange Flyover cities is the topic - Chicago is in a different class. This has been very educational. A lot of interesting options. Would consider Minneapolis, Cleveland and St Louis. Maybe Kansas City from what I’ve read.

No wonder they're all doing so much meth out there. They've got nothing else to do.

How can KC afford all those fountains? I mean it's not exactly like they've been on top of the world economically.

Cleveland is supposed to be nice. What about Madison, WI?

I used to cry as a child when my parents would make me go visit relatives in Cleveland. It was so fucking boring.

Madison is a great small city. If you love college towns, you will love Madison.And it's a nice state capitol as well.

[quote] Oh ... re Tulsa and rich oil people: there must be historical precedent for it. Fifty-five years ago, the Beverly Hillbillies character named Mr. Brewster was the intermediary between the Clampett oil fortune and banker Drysdale. Brewster was headquartered in Tulsa.

Mr. Brewster ... he was just DREAMY! He would've made a wonderful step-daddy for my little Jethrine!

The question is: How can we improve these cities so they're not so awful?

....

r221 Nuclear annihilation?

Turn them into New York, infested with rats and roaches and a cost of housing that is unaffordable to anyone but the wealthy?

A good portion of the Midwest is infested with human equivalents of rats and roaches. I'll take the animal ones over them, thank you very much.

You win.. R275. You live with the roaches. We can't outdo yours.

No, we can't.

Nope

With all due respect, R276, the Trumps became a "thing" because of the Midwest and South. Not a single one of those people could ever win shit in NYC. Just because they're from NYC, doesn't mean we're responsible for actually electing them and putting them in power. He got his ass handed to him in NYC by a carperbagger who became a senator here. Apparently, flyover hates arrogant, elitist, obnoxious, boorish NYer...unless they're also racists.

We'd like nothing more than to have them kicked out and their name off of everything here.

Welcome to the Midwest. Please set your watch back ten years.

^I love you, but you give them too much credit thinking they're even in the 2000s

Fake news, R279. Trump was nurtured in NYC and was a famous New Yorker before he went into politics. But now, you eastern elites have totally hijacked this thread, as you continually display your arrogance.

FAKE NEWS???

I never denied he was made in NYC, but the question is: Why is his appeal predominantly in flyover and the south? There's a difference between making money in NYC and literally having people VOTE FOR YOU. Why can't you own it? As NYers, we can't stop his businesses, as voters, we showed him what we thought of him. He belongs to you people out there.

We’re not elite, R282 but we are better.

One of my nephews is gay and he grew up in a small town in Kansas (brother-in-law has land and family there). He was out at school, had a boyfriend, with no problems -- signs of the changing times...

Anyhow, my sister has favorable things to say about Topeka!

So we have no DLers from Oklahoma or Tulsa willing to defend it?

I love the vibe of Minneapolis. It’s hip, well-educated, progressive, vibrant, healthy, and affluent without the obnoxious elitism of other places that have those attributes. People are generally laid back, unpretentious, and sweet. Construction is everywhere and the city is very vibrant and exciting. I’m impressed with Minny.

Ann Arbor is lovely

Every single county in Oklahoma voted for Trump. Every one.

If that doesn't tell you everything you need to to know about the state I don't know what does.

Where is the best place to see fall color?

[quote] Where is the best place to see fall color?

Canada.

I'm presuming you mean the Midwest, R 290. Go to the Great Lakes States.

Northern Michigan

Amish Country in Ohio

Thanks, R294, R293, R292. Those look beautiful. I live in Southern California and our autumn is much more subtle. I've never seen anything like R294 though.

R291, I'm sure Canada has beautiful autumn foliage as well.

Most of the cities in the Midwest are somewhat to very blue, but they are surrounded by VERY red rural areas. Many of them have had Democratic Senators in the past decade, which means that they are not solidly red. Oklahoma is an exception, but, as we've said, whether it's Midwestern is a question.

I've lived in both Mpls and Kansas City.

Both have their charms. Quite good arts scene, though I'd say Mpls has the edge over KC.

KC has some great food.

The weather in both is...not fun.

Wow, R289. I just looked it up and not one. Jesus Christ, why are we always going off about TX and FL? At least they have pockets of liberalism, but OK is just gross. I feel sorry for the few Dems who live there:

Even one of their Senators had a gross tweet. Stupid fucker is proud of this shit:

t @SenatorLankford At an unprecedented pace, the Senate just confirmed @RealDonaldTrump’s 50th judge for a lifetime appointment on the United States Court of Appeals.

Topeka will pay you $15,000 to move there.

Oklahoma is not in the Midwest, so you can disregard it. It is in the South.

Topeka is worth checking out. Real estate is affordable and they have four seasons.

Topeka also has a violent crime rate that's out of sight.

Four times the national average for murder. Twice as many robberies.

One of the highest crime rates of any city in the US.

There's a reason real estate is affordable.

All that and Westboro too!

R304 actually Westboro is a desirable area, but the eponymous church is located in that area as well unfortunately.

Minneapolis seems to be in first by a long mile, but wouldn't the weather be unbearable?

Actually, R305, the "church" is not really located in the Westboro neighborhood. It is a few blocks outside of it; they just co-opted the name.

Also, R303, those statistics are misleading. It isn't like there is a serial killer or something. There have been thug on thug drug-related killings. Regular people aren't affected at all.

"Thug on thug" or not, people see the stats (Topeka's murder rates are four times the Kansas average, robbery rates are four times the Kansas average, burglary, theft and vehicle theft rates more than double the Kansas average) and know they are a helluva lot more likely to be a victim of crime. It has an effect on house prices.

Maybe it seems normal there. It's not. Topeka has one of the highest crime rates of any city in the US.

R306 You get used to the weather. Surprisingly 15 f--5 f actually feels warmer as all the humidity has been pulled from the air so you don't have that wet eastern damp chill that gets in your bones. Of course you don't set foot outside unless you are bundled up and cabin fever is real. The worst part is a random 8-12" snow fall and what that does to your commute. Also by mid-February all the snow is coated gray to black with grime. At least they plow well. Another benefit from extreme cold is how bright and sunny it gets-especially with the reflection off the snow. But yes, over time, it gets to be too much