Southern Italy and Sicily

Gorgeous

I've been to Sicily and Puglia. I liked both but Sicily feels a bit different..I guess because it was an island and they've been invaded so many times. Sicily has a lot of texture and feels more like a real place. Puglia is becoming discovered and due to that more expensive and touristy. I think you need to speak and understand Italian - more as an intermediate than beginner. Both are great but not sure about a retirement destination. Maybe a good place to spend winter.

Sicily is still an island

What are the manwhores like.

Visiting is great. Living there, depending on your situation, is another matter.

Do you speak Italian? When I was on vacation there hardly anybody spoke English. Really beautiful but better learn the language before you make plans to move there. Otherwise it is almost impossible to connect with locals.

[quote] What are the manwhores like.

Situation unpromising. They still have too many hangups about the gay thing for it to be some sort of gay destination. Go for the food, art, culture, history, wine. Stay away if going for gay scene. It's no Spain or Portugal.

It is unfortunate but Italy is still very catholic and racked with guilt about the homosex. Hopefully that will change with older generations dying off

Was just there in March. Some beautiful areas, but word of advice: do NOT use the Circumvesuviana train that runs between Naples and Sorrento. Usually very crowded and worked heavily by pickpockets. My husband was pickpocketed as we were traveling back to Sorrento from Herculaneum. Luckily it wasn’t his wallet. Being on that train was one of the worst travel experiences I’ve ever had.

[quote] It is unfortunate but Italy is still very catholic and racked with guilt about the homosex.

Italy is becoming more progressive about things like climate change, so I hope that translates to other things like gay rights. There is, however, a gross, nativist fascist streak that exists there which isn't unlike our current predicament with Trump voters and their concerns. Populism is currently trending internationally.

FWIW, my mother is from Naples and I spent most of my childhood summers there, so I can speak and read Italian fluently and have family there still..

To say something positive, Italy is one of the most American-friendly countries in Europe. Nobody will give you crap about whatever bad politics is currently happening here unlike other European countries (I won't name names).

It's also probably not a bad destination for retirement. People defer to older people and treat them with respect.

[quote] (I won't name names).

Which countries? Name names!

Sicily is inconvenient but worth it.

I found Sicily beautiful but odd. They consider themselves another country, and it felt like it.

R14, the unification of "Italy" as a country is still a new concept--within the last 200 years. There is still a lot of feudalism that exists between the different regions.

The US, despite all of its current regional squabbles, is probably a more united concept than Italy.

The worst haters of Americans have to be the French, Scandinavians and British, in that order.

R16, to be positive:

The Portuguese are the nicest, friendliest people in Europe by a mile. Italians are second.

There's a scene in "Nuovomondo," set at the turn of the last century, where a bunch of Sicilian men and a few Calabrians are packed into steerage on a ship bound for America. They introduce themselves by stating their names and villages, some unheard of. The lead guy mentions that there are a lot of foreigners onboard, but one guy corrects him, "We're all Italians." The lead guy's son turns to him and goes, "Italiani? Nni Italiani? (We're Italians??)" His dad just shrugs. They had no idea.

R18, Italian-Americans have more of a united, romantic idea of Italy than actual Italians.

My dad is an east coast Italian-American man of a certain age, and the arguments between him and my Naples-born mom are hilarious and legion.

Squeaky clean holes

Are we white this week or not?

Unless you can speak Italian or have a desire to learn, retiring anywhere in Italy will be a struggle. Yes, many people speak English, but think through this option first. Perhaps spend a month or two traveling around and see.

I very much enjoyed staying in Sorrento and using this location as my base for traveling around this part of Italy. It feels very much like a small town and you can easily travel up and down the coast. I used the Circumvesuviana train, which is slow and sometimes crowded, but it was convenient. You can also take a local bus or ferry to travel to many places, such as Capri, from Sorrento. I avoided Naples. The bus ride to Amalfi was both beautiful and terrifying. (You've been warned.)

Sicily is a very diverse Island. I stayed in both Catania and Palermo for several weeks. Both are charming small cities and are fun to explore. So many restaurants in both cities where you'll find a variety of dishes to try. If you have a place where you can cook, the open markets will have everything you might need.

OP, if you can, give yourself plenty of time to explore. I only had a month last year and could have visited many more places, but very happy with what I could visit.

R19 You type white Adjacent.

I have relatives in Italy and the ones who are ages 18-50 speak, read, and write English very well. The relatives who are older than 50 know some English but are not as fluent in English as my relatives who are 18-50.

Traveling there is fine. Living there and emigration is completely different. Be prepared for lots of beauracracy. Even Italians hate it but accept that it is how things are. There is beauracracy in all European countries but the worst tend to be the Netherlands/Benelux, Germany, and the Nordic/Scandinavian countries.

R23, in DL terms, yes, I am. I grew up in southern California and despite my last name, people here have a hell of a hard time figuring out where I'm from.

Only in SoCal would people constantly mistake you for Latino or Armenian.

R26 You must have stinky pits and stinky feet like your countrymen.

R27, lmao. I try not to. I carry an Old Spice stick with me wherever I go.

I heard from a friend who traveled there and to the rest of Italy and he said that the men (and women) were on the homely looking side. Not sure what to think.

[quote] Only in SoCal would people constantly mistake you for Latino or Armenian.

Hairy and stinky.

Italians being beautiful is a bit of a myth, sure there are many but in the end they're like everyone else. Not everyone can look like Matteo Berrittini.

R10 are you the OP? You need to identify yourself in your posts.

What am I, chopped liver?

Language? Looks? What about the really important questions: do they rinse the pasta or not? Do they sauce the pasta in the pot or on the plate.

Fognini is secretly Mexican!!

I know a number of American couples who have retired to Italy (Tuscany) and love it. One of the couples is gay.

None of them speak Italian fluently.

But the language is not a problem for them. The Italians are very willing to help you out. You can learn basic Italian...enough to get around...pretty quickly. There are lots of Italian language schools in Italy and every community offers lessons. Some for free.

However: if you want to truly participate in the culture, then yes, you must know the language and you must know it profoundly. But I think that's true for anywhere.

Italians like Americans. Probably more than any other Euro country.

[quote]Italians being beautiful is a bit of a myth, sure there are many but in the end they're like everyone else.

I disagree.

Of course there are dumpy people everywhere but the average man in Italy tends to look good.

Less obesity. More prone to dress well and be well groomed. Nice fitting clothes. Nice haircuts. Nice shoes. Nice glasses. It does make a difference.

Anyone who lives in NYC can note that the Italian tourists usually look very good.

They take a lot of pride in the Bella Figura.

If you've been travelling a lot in Scandinavian countries, Benelux, Germany, Austria or even Poland or Czech Republic, you'll agree that finding Italians with comparable English language skills is quite a hassle. It's enough to check in at a hotel or order food at a restaurant, but even young people (18-30) hardly speak any English in Southern Italy.

R38 Try making your way around France speaking English.

At least the Italians will not give you attitude and they'll go out of their way to help.

R31, I am not the OP. I have spent a lot of time in Italy though.

That's true r39, thankfully I skipped France on my last few trips bc I still remember the French rudeness very well. One woman in a French market was particularly rude and simply refused to write down the sum I owed her and was just repeating it in French over and over again till I finally gave her all the money I had and hoped it was enough. Italians at least are very friendly, helpful and warm people. Never met a rude person there in all my life.

[quote]they've been invaded so many times.

So it has a lot in common with your ass.

I want to eat Sicilian cum.

Rome's Metro looks as tagged up as 70s New York.

Graffiti everywhere in Italy....especially Rome. Such a shame. I went to Seville and so none! I was shocked.

R44, there is a ton of it in Naples as well. The etymology of the word is Italian, and really, it's a proto-Italian creation dating back to Ancient Rome and Pompeii. So really, if you want to blame anyone for graffiti, you have to blame Italians, lol.

Visiting: a wonderful experience, amazing scenery, food, people. A ferry from Trapani to Pantelleria is a must.

Living/Retiring: A fucking nightmare, whether or not you speak Italian or the local dialect.

I love most of southern Italy. Naples is a shithole..

Sicily is where Olive Garden sends their chefs to learn Italian cooking.

If you can't fornicate there, it's no point of going there.

You guys should check out Punta Prosciutto near Porto Cesareo. One of the best beaches in Italy and probably Europe. Also the region in southern Italy that Italians call Salento is extremely beautiful and full of Italian tourists in August and September. Hardly any foreigners or obnoxious groups like in Spain, Greece or Turkey.

That is Puglia R51. It has been discovered. Sicily is way cheaper. And if you're really looking for a bargain try Basilicata.

^I'm not looking for a bargain, but the best beaches, food and architecture and I was sharing my favorite places here. Sicily and Puglia also has a completely different vibe, culture and scenery. I also don't need idiots like you to lecture me, capito?

Non capisco R53

Parliamo in Italiano, allora? Non ci sono mai stato in Puglia, ma si dice che sia bella.

Mi trasferirò à Roma la settimana prossima. Voglio provare i bagni di Villa Borghese dove tanti ragazzi incontrano.

mamma mia, che bello. mangerei tanta sborra?

I only took two quarters of Italian in college (>40 years ago), but between that and speaking Spanish, I kind of figured out what you were talking about.

Who has been to Ostuni in Puglia? I hear there are a lot of British expats living there.

I have been there R59..it was off peak in May but it is a lovely place...apparently really gets hopping in July/August. Don't know about the brits but I think Helen Mirren has a place there or nearby.

I would like to add that Lecce is more of a real city than Ostuni. It's a beautiful baroque mess of a place but a real functioning small city not just made for tourists. If I had to relocate to Puglia I would choose Lecce if your want a more city vibe. They call it the Florence of the south. A bit of a stretch but still.

More on Sicily, please!

Have you been to Siracusa? I loved it. They use this honey colored stone in those Baroque cities that catches the light as the sun drops. It is a glorious site. I've been to Siracusa, Ragusa and Noto and then toured the Temples of Agrigento. There are a couple of others towns in Southeastern Sicily...just , gorgeous. The best beaches are actually in the northern side of the Island. The food is wonderful and different than the mainland.

I like Lecce also. Some really beautiful scenery there, nice people, and it's not as fucked up as the other side of the boot is in the South.

What part of Sicily is Sophia from ?

R63, I visited the same cities when I was there in 2013. Loved Nota and Agrigento.

"Italians being beautiful is a bit of a myth, sure there are many but in the end they're like everyone else."

On my one trip to Italy, for the most part, I wasn't impressed with the looks of the Italians, they weren't better or worse looking than people anywhere.

Except in Florence, where there was a huge number of women who looked like Sophia Loren! I mean, a lot of them had similar beautiful faces, and a lot of them had figures like hers as well - I mean a bit slimmer per modern tastes, but the proportions were there. Which was odd, as Sophia's family wasn't from Florence. She's from Rome, and I didn't see anyone who resembled her in Rome (moved to Naples later

[quote]What part of Sicily is Sophia from ?

The Jewish ghetto.

Susan Sarandon’s family is from Florence.

Sinatra's family is Northern Italian.

R70, Sinatra's mother, Dolly, was from Genoa. His father, Marty, was from Palermo, Sicily.

so Sinatra is interracial adjacent?

R41, was she literate?

Sicily is beautiful and relatively undiscovered by Americans.

Taormina is the tourist city and if you can swing the San Domenico Palace it's worth it. Incredible views of sea from an old monastery.

Palermo still feels undiscovered, and it's a sizable city with a lot to do, ditto Siracusa. Catania is less charming than other spots.

Lots of smaller towns in the inland where you can stay on a farm type setting though it's an upscale hotel

Next time I want to check out the islands off of Sicily, the Aeolian islands--friends have been and photos look incredible, Lipari in particular.

I can speak enough Italian to get by, so that helps, though someone from Milan or Turino will claim they can't understand a word anyone in Palermo is saying.

Pointing and smiling helps a lot.

It's Turin (or Torino), hon.

Taormina has beautiful views, but there was a bunch of garbage in the ocean when I went a while ago.

In Palermo, the view from Monte Pellegrino is great. Definitely need to rent a car in Sicilia.

Taormina is lovely but it is on the cruise ship stops so be warned.

It appears I'm the only person who loves Naples. Happening city with tons of character and culture that will never bore you.

So there's no gay scene in the south?

[quote]So there's no gay scene in the south?

Do a little research. There's plenty on line.

^That's Gay Pride Palermo.

BTW: the former President of Sicily, Rosario Crocetta is openly Gay

Why does Sicily have its own president? It's not a country.

.....

100,000 people attend Napoli Pride.

The men are hung and gorgeous.

Every Italian I met spoke both Italian and English.

R81, Italy has regional Presidents, and, under the Italian Constitution, each region is an autonomous entity with defined powers.

[quote] Sinatra's family is Northern Italian.

His father was Sicilian, dear.

[quote] Susan Sarandon’s family is from Florence.

And Sicily.

My Italian great grandmother hated Italy with a passion. She wanted that shithole destroyed. She hated Mussolini and supported FDR like he was a saint. Most Italians left for America due to poverty.

Sicily is stunning. Make time to visit the Aolian Islands - Panarea and Stromboli.

r85 So they're more like state governors?

r89 Stay away from Stromboli.

[quote]Most Italians left for America due to poverty.

Gee R88, what an interesting piece of information. I mean, who knew?

Another big Naples fan. Gigantic 2600-year-old hot mess. Amazing food and architecture. Scorching hot mens.

Paestum was an amazing place, visited several years ago, Greek ruins, a great museum, and wonderful beaches.

R92 missed the thread asking if we came from aristocracy.

R88 when did your great grandmother leave Italy? If she is in her 80s or 90s that generation loved FDR.

All was better under Ferdinand.

[quote]Every Italian I met spoke both Italian and English.

I live in cosmopolitan Rome and that's a flat out lie!

R88 my grandfather left Italy with my uncle because my grandfather did not want to become a farmer, fisherman, or priest, and they were expected to go to the United States to make money and send it back. They sent back some money, but stopped after they got married and had children.

Their older brother had been to the United States, returned to Italy but left with his wife for Argentina before WW II.

I am currently learning Italian, and I have to admit that one of the reasons is that I do find both the food and men attractive. Once I get a little more fluent, I'll probably spend a couple of months over there. I really like the darker skinned, somewhat hairy southerners, and my destination will probably be somewhere in the mezzogiorno. We have a lot of Italians living in my area, and I often check them out. I lived in Bensonhurst in Brooklyn back in the 1980's, back when it was ground zero for the whole "guido" culture. I have to admit that I really love those boys, even though some of the Jersey Shore boys are a little over the top. I've heard that when they're in a pack, they're very straight, but when you get to know them individually, they're pretty "obtainable." I'm hoping that the perceived straightness of the Italians is only part of the "bella figura" culture, and getting to know some on an individual basis could be very rewarding.

R100 did you like the porn guy Donnie Russo? Italians or people from Italy, and Italian-Americans from NYC or the Northeast are two completely different types of people.

I've found out that Northern Italians are much more reserved. Today, dropped the car off for service, and the Italian mechanic working on it checked me out top to bottom very openly, lingering on my crotch each time. I of course returned the favor and am curious where I can take this to.

You're imagining things, r102

[quote]I can speak enough Italian to get by, so that helps, though someone from Milan or Turino will claim they can't understand a word anyone in Palermo is saying.

I'm taking Italian 101 this semester, and this week we watched a film that uses this as a running joke, Benvenuti al Sud.

I meridionali non capiscono anche i Milanesi.

I have always wanted to go to Sicily

I was in Sicily once, for a week, and that was quite enough.

I remember when our train crossed from france into Italy, the fields were filled with trash and garbage, kind of revealing, like from heaven into a mess

I noticed this in Puglia too. Lots of trash. However I didn't see it in Sicily. With the exception of Gela which is truly a shithole. Granted it was bombed to hell and back in WW2 but it looks like it never recovered.

When I have asked Sicilians what was the worst town in Sicily, the answer was always "Gela," even by people from Gela! A person from Gela is amusingly called "Geloso" which also means "jealous." It was destroyed by uncontrolled pollution from a post-WWII oil refinery, which has been closed. Alas, it is just another "borghesa mafiosa" (little mafia town).

Trash removal is a problem just about everywhere in Sicily. No one is happy about it. As it costs money, people then dump their trash by the side of the road, leading to a worse mess, or even worse, burn it.

Sicily is a wonderful place, but it is not without its problems, particularly with municipal services.

I spent most of my time in SE Sicily and didn't noticed a lot of trash. I stayed among the Baroque towns and then went to Agrigento.

What do Italians think of their country?

Do they know it's beautiful?

Picture it, Sicily! 1922!

Re: Language. I lived in Rome for six months in 1980. I speak Spanish and rudimentary French, and I took a little Italian in college and could understand the basics. I went on a three-day bus tour to the Amalfi coast and Naples and our local tour guide would describe everything in Italian, English, and French. I could understand what he was saying in all three languages, but when he spoke to the bus driver, I couldn't understand a word he was saying. I gather they were both from the Naples area and were speaking in some regional dialect.

I have extended family in Calabria. I hate to advance stereotypes, but there still is a ton of crime there. My first couple visits, my family would not let me go anywhere alone out of kidnapping fears. I know it was much worse in the 1970s and 1980s, but even when I went there the first time in 2003, there was still fear.

They are not very warm and friendly towards strangers. While you can buy a condo near the beach for US$50k in some towns, you will not be welcomed unless you are introduced into the community by a relative or good friend who knows the right people.

Southern Italians are just as backwards and superstitious as southern Americans. But probably more violent.

R113, almost every Italian of a certain age speaks a local vernacular and Standard Italian. Often, their Italian is colored by the substrate language.

American South - More conservative; more fundamentally religious; accent considered more beautiful and expressive; fatter; better food; provincial attitudes reign; great music and culture; guns;

Italian South - Big on the family; more religious and superstitious; accent considered beautiful and expressive; fatter; better food; provincial attitudes reign; great music and culture; mafia;

Sicily (Palermo), Puglia (Bari) and Campagnia (Naples) are the only places in the south with any kind of scene.

I'm going to Puglia in December.

PBMT thread?

In reference to Reply 103 and the car mechanic that I think is gay, when I went to pick up my car the other day, his dad, who owns the place told me, "My son may be a cocksucker, but he's a damn good mechanic." Am I imagining it?

R114 where in Calabria are your relatives from? I also have family there and people are friendly and cordial but I look very southern European, or have typical features for someone from Calabria according to a man from Campania I know.

r122, they're from the province of Reggio Calabria. Lots of small towns and lots of 'Ndrangheta activity.

I'm mixed Italian and Eastern European. My last name is an odd Eastern European one that ends in a vowel, so many Americans think it is Italian, but Italians know better. I speak proper Italian well enough to fool natives. I just don't understand much when they reply to me!

Once people knew who I belonged to they were fine with me. It amazed me when a random 50 year old cafe owner learned who I was staying with said, "oh you're from the AB and XY family," where AB and XY were my great-great grandparents who were born in the 1860s. People in the town still knew who they were! They were tenant farmers...not politicians or rich people.

But I caution tourists with no connections not to just show up in these towns being all loud and American. Italian Americans are NOT Calabrese people. Calabrese tend to be more quiet and reserved. Anyone I know looking to meet family members, I suggest to them they write letters in advance of their trip to anyone with their family name in the town. It also helps to send copies of old pictures that may be of people from Italy so they know who you are. Then they will welcome you if they can figure out who you are--and even if they can't, they may.

R90, Pretty much. Sicily, and a few other regions (Sardinia, Valle d'Aosta, Trentino-Alto Adige, Friuli-Venezia Giulia), have special status in the Italian constitution, granting them greater autonomy than the other regions. So they are more or less countries within a country.

I thought Napoli was the arse hole of the world until I saw Cairo.

I’ll be alone in Italy and I’m looking for advice for somewhere cheap, and not boring for the week between Christmas and New Year’s when most Italians will be spending time with family. I’m thinking of booking an AirBnB in one of the following cities: Milan, Turin, Florence, Siena, Verona, Trieste, Bolzano, Naples, Bari, Lecce, Palermo or Bologna. Again, my budget is tight. Any suggestions?

I’ll be alone in Italy and I’m looking for advice for somewhere cheap, and not boring for the week between Christmas and New Year’s when most Italians will be spending time with family. I’m thinking of booking an AirBnB in one of the following cities: Milan, Turin, Florence, Siena, Verona, Trieste, Bolzano, Naples, Bari, Lecce, Palermo or Bologna. Again, my budget is tight. Any suggestions?

Bumpita

r127, I've never been to Italy, but the first places I want to go to are Bologna and Florence, from your list. Those are in the regions, Emilia-Romagna and Tuscany, with the best food.

We have a family home in Basilicata. It's a wonderful part of the country with friendly people and many amenities. Of course chains like Ikea have sprouted up but they have their place. My one complaint is the spiders here are the size of dinner plates.

Siena and Verona are kind of small. Maybe Bologna? It is a university city with the best food. And probably less expensive than the Milan, Florence or Rome.

It can be cold in Italy in December--and not just in the mountains. The farther south you go, the warmer it will be.

r131. You just picked my Christmas break for me. And I think Bologna is close enough to a lot of places for day trips?

Yes Bologna is very central to Venice, Florence, Milan. Quick train ride. Enjoy!

Florence has a couple of hot gay bars

But Florence is overpriced, isn't it?