Did Yoko Ono Ruin John Lennon?!

Lennon allowed her to control his life because he had as many Mommy Issues as National Geographic has back issues.

Any other questions?

The Cynthia John was the great John. Sorry, Yoko, but it's true.

Anyone who thinks John Lennon could be controlled by anyone didn't know John Lennon.

After Yoko, John put out all that garbage like Power To The People, Cold Turkey, Give Peace A Chance, Instant Karma and that maudlin POS Imagine. He became like a loud, obnoxious billboard.

She just enabled his fuckery. Some men like being bossed around by pushy asshole women. They’re a proxy, oftentimes. Like the way Harry uses Meghan Markle against his family.

There’s a term I’m sure you’re all familiar with: topping from the bottom. That’s what these guys do. The pushy asshole woman is actually less in control than she appears.

Weren't they both into heroin?

They did both use heroin, R6. He also beat her.

R5 Good comment.

Instant Karma and God are two of the best things anyone has ever done.

True story: Yoko Ono was not the least talented Beatle wife.

That title belongs to Heather Mills, although surprisingly she did win a bronze medal in one legged hopscotching at the Special Olympics in 1996.

R1 He even called Yoko “Mother” as I recall.

R6 They were both junkies in the era where they lived in that huge mansion in England, before they came to NYC. John wrote a song about heroin withdrawal called ‘Cold Turkey.’

Lyrics:

The temperature's rising

The fever is high

Can't see no future

Can't see no sky

My feet are so heavy

And so is my head

I wish I was a baby

I wish I was dead

Cold turkey has got me on the run

Cold turkey has got me on the run

My body is aching

Goose pimple bone

I can't see nobody

Leave me alone

My eyes are wide open

I can't go to sleep

One thing I'm sure of

I'm in at the deep freeze

Cold turkey has got me on the run

Cold turkey has got me on the run

Thirty six hours

Rolling in pain

Praying to someone

Free me again

I'll be a good boy

Please make me well I promise you anything

Get me out of this hell

Cold turkey has got me on the run

Cold turkey has got me on the run

Cold turkey has got me on the run

Cold turkey has got me on the run

John Lennon ruined John Lennon by taking up with Yoko. I don't know if he was born stupid or just got that way.

Damn right she did, ev body who was round her said she was TOXIC BIATCH!!!!

There are lots of people who are looking for someone to run their lives for them. John happened to be one of them. It's a cushy deal for the slacker - no responsibility, no stress, someone else to take the blame when things go wrong. Some of the people choosing to abdicate responsibility for their own lives are lazy. Some are incompetent but are at least bright enough to know it. Some have major mommy issues.

Yoko was a perfect match for John - equally pretentious, a pushy social climber in the arts, desperate to be famous. So desperate, she'd do anything and anyone to achieve it. Remember, her first Beatle target was Paul. Paul pushed her off to John.

It worked out just as well for Yoko as for John. She was able to use him to achieve fame and to spend his money and use his influence to promote herself.

They were mutually dazzled for a few years, then fell into mutual and justified contempt. Both horrible narcissists who deserved each other, if you ask me.

I'd say Mark David Chapman ruined John Lennon.

Did she get him strung out in the end so he wouldn't leave her????

She ruined him, completely. I will always hate her...the greedy bitch.

How does one adult ruin another. Adults ruin their children, yes, but why was Lennon saw everyone around him see Yoko for the greedy, evil, bitch she is. He subjected his son to her. That's the one I feel sorry for. I don't care what psychological damage Lennon had and that he might have been one of those men who needed a mommy. No one held a gun to his head to let her take over his life. He was dead long before that bullet killed him.

John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band Is considered one of the greatest rock albums ever, so I don’t know why people think Yoko ruined John. He was always a mess, abusive to women, etc but an absolutely brilliant musician, even after the Beatles. He was ruined when someone shot him.

Anyone who doesn't think Yoko ruined John, I want you to watch this video and explain it.

John finally gets to perform with one of his idols and Yoko fucks it all up. You can even see the shock in Chuck Berry's eyes as he thinks, "da fuck?"

"Anyone who thinks John Lennon could be controlled by anyone didn't know John Lennon."

Oh, please. After he hooked up with Ono SHE was the one in control. He liked that. Like it's been said, he had pathological Mommy issues. He called her "Mother." The only way he could get his way against Yoko was to work himself up into a screaming, crying fit of anger. But that seldom happened. He always did what she wanted. After their separation he was in a relationship with May Pang, who really cared for him and was good for him. He talked about buying a house for them to live in and having a child with her. Then he paid a visit to Yoko and did a complete turnaround. He told her "Yoko has allowed me to come home." She ALLOWED him to come "home." It's been speculated that his sudden dumping of Pang was due to some kind of hypnosis or mind control machinations that were used on him during the visit to Yoko. I could buy that. Yoko was really into stuff like that. At any rate, it's been documented thoroughly that John Lennon was indeed controlled by Yoko Ono all during their very sick, co-dependent relationship.

The bitch had him cremated pretty fast, too. She was probably secretly elated that he had been shot to death like that as she alone could be in the spotlight., milking sympathy as the widow Lennon. She forgot, however, that she had zero talent. What the fuck is she doing now in her dotage? Buying more apartments in the Dakota? Getting richer by the day I suppose.

In a way, maybe he deserved her. He put people who loved him through hell all the time so what goes around, comes around. A shame, but there you go.

Lennon and McCartney obviously had synergy. Even if Yoko Ono had never come along and Lennon and McCartney continued to write and record together, their popularity would have dropped.

I read "Loving John" by May Pang. In the book, Lennon sounded like an alcoholic and, IIRC, violent. Yoko knew that John would have sex with another woman whether she (Yoko) liked it or not. So, Yoko found a non-threatening woman, May Pang, and pushed Lennon toward Pang.

John was definitely in control of the relationship. Yoko seemed more of an enabler and caretaker. There did seem to be a mother/son dynamic between the two.

She provided him with heroin and then he did the rest but I blame her for his weakness. She did it all and had her son, all for John's money. She could not sing and she is no artist.

To me, it seemed like he was with her just to piss off his peers, fans, and the public. He always wanted to be a rebel, so the most rebellious thing he could do was stay with the woman whom everyone wanted him to leave. Both of them were horrible. I agree with the poster who said "Poor Julian."

I’ve always been fascinated by her ability to convince people of her intelligence and talent. She’s completely insane, a horrible singer, physically unattractive and a control freak. She’s like another Jizzlaine. People fall for her act. I thought I read somewhere that her father was a zillionaire so maybe the bohemian rich freak persona is one that comes naturally to her.

[quote] I’ve always been fascinated by her ability to convince people of her intelligence and talent.

You don't have to be talented at all. All you have to do is take advantage of the surrounding opportunities, have a support system in place that backs you up and convinces your peers that your creative output or product is successful or at least thought-provoking and you can get the reputation of a legit, credible artist or inventor, too.

So many regular people have great ideas but are too afraid to realize them, because they are afraid of the consequences (what if everybody will laugh at me? What if it's a failure and then everybody will laugh at me? What if it's a success and my friends will hate me because "you've changed, dude!"?).

Fuk yes, its not even a point of debate any more is it? an acknowleged groupie and narcissus, she set her sights on him, and got him....alas., and look what they made:::::that odius hairy mess of a son. known as mr stinky.

#26::: well said, 27 also....eloquent.

Yoko's father was a wealthy banker.

Back in the 70's John gave Yoko power of attorney to handle business matters and his money. ... When they got together John was worth less than 50 Million and at the time of his death around 300 million. She invested in real estate, art and several other things and did well.

I've read that Yoko was in a mental ward back in Japan.

Lennon had the weakest post Beatle career (we won't include dear Ringo). Makes me wonder just how much Paul influenced/helped John's songwriting and not the other way around.

Yoko was having an affair at the time she pushed Lennon onto May Pang and sent them into exile in L.A.

It's a cliché that a lot of powerful, driven, high-achieving asshole straight men crave female domination. They want to be relieved of control and responsibility, they want to deal with feelings of guilt by letting Mistress or Mommy punish them for their sins, they want to feel like a boy again, and they want someone else to take charge during sex, which relieves them of worries about performance etc.

Some straight men marry their Mistress/Mommy figure, others pay for discipline by the hour. Lennon had a LOT of issues, IMHO he wanted his dominant female around all the time. Which strikes me as uncomfortably Oedipal, someone who just gets off on domination doesn't need the Domme around all the time, someone who wants maternal love and discipline does.

She considered him a prolonged "performance art" project.

I don’t think she ruined him, but she also isn’t blameless for his downfall. He made the decision to let the crazy bitch into his life and to let her control him, and she took advantage of his poor decision making and took him for everything he had. They share the blame for the death of his career and idol status.

All I can say is that yoko ono did ruin Katy Perry

Just goes to show, money doesn't buy class.

You all are showing your age. All the young'uns I know worship Yoko as a person who pursued her art and made music defiantly her own in the face of universal scorn. They see her as a feminist icon.

He was always a crazy asshole

He was an abusive drunk, for sure.

That's like saying I ruined Van Halen

Ayayay. What downfall???? He was shot and killed because he was famous! He didn’t start playing lounge clubs.

Lennon was a complete cunt. Pretty much everything was his own fault.

jus look at her no good talentless son.....nuff said.

(poor john, if only he never met her.....

she got john strung out to control him? if true, burn in hell bitch....

Eh...Cibo Matto (which Sean produced and wrote for) is pretty good! And John met everyone in the world and chose Yoko. He was no victim of her wiles.

Not sure where the idea that Yoko Ono is untalented came from, but she is and was a very talented conceptual artist and was one long before she met Lennon.

It has everything to do with her screams

So many Fohns!

Scream and the world screams with you

Maybe she's throwing back in your smug faces the fact that you treat women and people of color like shit.

John Lennon and Yoko Ono Remind me of Prince Harry/Meghan Markle

R55 yes, there seemed to be many similarities....

R22 omg why was this nut even onstage with John Lennon and Chuck Berry in the first place, banging on a fucking bongo drum? Chuck’s WTF face when she started screeching and caterwauling like a demented banshee is priceless.

His eyes literally bug out of his head, lol

Looking back on that era and watching Lennon’s interviews and performances it’s painfully obvious what a complete and totally insufferable asshole he was. So I guess they deserved each other.

r54, context is everything, darling. making laughable monkey noises while your husband sings a vintage Rock tune with Churck berry is beyond absurd and does nothing for the plight of the maligned

It's weird how quickly Megan Markle became a hate-object here. It's almost as if you cunts are mad she got herself the ginger scepter and you never will.

She sang, or attempted to. That was the day the music died. The Beatles broke up. Riots broke out around the world. Dictators cracked down, and disease exploded across the face of the earth.

She is Mammon. She is Shiva, destroyer of Worlds. Otherwise, she had a funny turn on Absolutely Fabulous and she says “hi!”

I saw her eating at Da Silvano once. She looked really really rich.

Family Guy got it right....

"Ayayay. What downfall????"

During his relationship Ono, Lennon went from making immortal music with the Beatles, to making less great music on his own, to making self-indulgent and uncommercial music, to not making music at all for years. Good enough for you?

"All the young'uns I know worship Yoko as a person who pursued her art and made music defiantly her own in the face of universal scorn."

Apparently "all the young'uns" you know are completely ignorant about Yoko Ono. She's talentless; always has been. But she became famous by her connection to John Lennon, a truly disturbed man.

She was at some art show, doing her thing, making a spectacle of herself. Andy Warhol was there. Someone asked him about her and he said "She's always around. She's always copying somebody's art."

No r65, you obviously know nothing about rock music. He made one of the best rock albums ever after the Beatles broke up—certainly better than anything his bandmates EVER did on their own. But evil women are always to blame for the “downfall” of men. It’s been so since Adam and Eve, right?

I wish you all would write a different story.

What album was that, R67?

Yoko seems so charming on Twitter. Really! She's always posting whimsical thoughts.

Albert Goldman's Lennon book is problematic, but he wrote some hilarious descriptions of her behavior and antics. He said she looked "simian" on the cover of the 'Two Virgins' album, LOL.

R68, that would be John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band. Working Class Hero and God are truly sublime, I play them still today. Rolling Stone ranks it 23 on their The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time list.

He was a wife-beating turd before he met Yoko, so no. You can’t ruin shit. Still, Yoko Ono deserves a kick in the cunt for the fact that she’s been dining out on Lennon’s legacy for the last 40 years. Have some humility and fuck off, darling. x

"Humility," [R72]? I don't think that emotion is in her repertoire.

Just an obnoxious rich bitch.

R 72 He beat up a lot of people, not just women. Ex-Beatle Stu Sutcliffe got kicked in the head by Lennon in some crazy brawl, died of a brain tumor a year later. Coincidence?

Lennon also treated his son like shit, verbally abusing a young kid, telling him to his face in so many words that he, Julian, was the result from a night of heavy drinking ---in other words, a stupid accident. What a dad!

Yeah, Mr Peace Love and Understanding was a cruel, self-absorbed cunt and imo deserved every screech and scream, every bit of that spoiled, snotty, skanky and fugly wannabe artiste/parasite in his life.

Well there's also the thing where Mr. "Imagine no possessions" had a whole bedroom devoted to his furs.

Elton John told Lennon that if his song "Whatever Gets You Through The Night" ever got to No.1, he would have to join Elton on stage at Madison Square Garden. It did, so Lennon joined Elton for 3 songs . After the concert , Elton arranged for Lennon to run into Yoko (who he was estranged from) and they reunited. So, the banshee is Elton's fault.

"After the concert , Elton arranged for Lennon to run into Yoko (who he was estranged from) and they reunited."

I think in Goldman's book he said that it was actually Yoko who planned the whole thing; her reconnection was Lennon was no accident. SHE made it happen. She was like that. A person who knew her said she was "the most conniving" person he'd ever seen.

A lot of Goldman's book has proven to be garbage r78.

Her screams are a sign of the Beast

I love her! She’s so funny.

Remember this one? Question: What's yellow and lives off dead Beatles? Answser: Yoko Ono

R79, Actually a lot of Goldman's book turned out to be true. The whole PR of a great love affair between Ono and Lennon and Lennon being house dad baking bread were total falsehoods.

They were a disgusting couple who brought out the worst in one another--far more egregious than Kurt Cobain and Courtney Love, who are often compared to them.

Is that why she screamed?

Because John was getting bored and tired of the Beatles.

And now, for a musical interlude...

I'm pretty sure he was anorexic. He was totally neurotic about what he ate. And I mean put yourself in his position. You broke up your band and declared your unending love for this woman in front of the whole world. How hard would it be to say "welp. she's a bitch. Divorce!"

"A lot of Goldman's book has proven to be garbage."

A lot of his speculation was garbage. But a lot of what he said was true. I believe everything he said about Yoko Ono.

Lennon was always jealous of McCartney, the pretty boy who wrote catchy hits. For example, after McCartney wrote the rocking 'Lady Madonna', Lennon wrote a similar rocker, 'Hey Bulldog', and he tried to get it released as a single. Their competitiveness bought out the best in each other and we were lucky they were able to work together for as long as they did.

I also think that a lot of Lennon's solo work afterwards was magnificent but some of it was mediocre at best ('Some Time in New York City' is unlistenable).

'Walking On Thin Ice' is the only good song Yoko ever recorded. She's a no-talent bum but she's good for a laugh.

she makes me laugh over and over

How much of the hatred of Yoko was because she was not white?

Woman

Beautiful Boy

R90, yes, some of his work was truly magnificent—some stuff even better than the Beatles. When he was the “tortured artist” he was very creative. When he settled down, not so much. It’s a dilemma for a lot of artists like him.

I always thought Yoko's famous artwork that first attracted Lennon - the one where you climb a ladder, look through a magnifying glass and see the tiny word "yes" - sounds just so interesting and charming, and back then it was very avant-garde. No wonder he fell, going by that anyway. Seriously, for a jaded, depressed rock star with an artistic bent, it must have been powerfully appealing stuff.

This is the only sing I've ever liked by her.

∆ Song, not sing.

R97 She had something.

Although, R97, I'm not sure she could have 'gotten another pig' as good as John Lennon.

Screaming harpy

Yoko at age 80 singing "Bad Dancer"

Isn't it mind-blowing though that she has lived for another 40 years after John!

"How much of the hatred of Yoko was because she was not white?"

She was hated because of her personality, not her race.

Fucking freakin shrieking harpy

R103 The Queen Mom outlived her husband by 50 years.

Maybe in the 60s, there was a wee bit of "oh she's Japanese, how...different." But honestly, that was about it.

She screamed a lot

Lennon really did have mommy issues. He was raised by his aunt because his mother was too wild and he wanted to live with her instead of his strict aunt MIMI. Then his mother got hit by a car and died when he was 14. Apparently he was devastated.

For years people made nasty comments about her being Asian.

also her screaming

"How much of the hatred of Yoko was because she was not white?"

Well, anyone the public saw as coming between Lennon and McCartney would have been in for a shitshow of public abuse, no matter what color or sex they were. I can't imagine many Beatles fans cared that much about Cynthia Lennon's feelings, as she was probably the focus of as much resentment as any rock star's wife, but the fans sure as hell wanted Lennon&McCartney to stay together and keep writing hits! Of course Yoko probably wasn't the biggest factor there as there were also conflicting personalities and massive egos involved as well as drugs and John's precarious mental health, but the adoring pubic would always rather blame some "bad" woman than admit their idols were jerks.

Japan wasn't well thought of internationally, in those days, that was before Japan had a technological revolution and became a super-cool advanced country. In the last 60s, Japan was seen as the place that cheap junk and kamikaze fighters came from, and yeah, anyone who was looking for a reason to hate Yoko Ono any more than they already did could have racism to their list of complaints against her. I doubt more than a few loons hated her for just being Japanese, but when people get into "haters gonna hate" mode, they'll pick at absolutely everything about a person, including their racial origin.

John had a thing for Asian chicks. His mistress during his "Lost Weekend" period was May Pang. He also liked black women. He tried very hard to get into Ronnie Spector's pants but she fended him off (it wasn't easy; he was VERY aggressive).

The Asian prejudice wasn’t that bad.

[Quote] eriously, for a jaded, depressed rock star with an artistic bent, it must have been powerfully appealing stuff.

Yoko was a Fluxus artist. It was the headiest art movement at the time. Lennon was naturally drawn to its creativity, ideas, and energy.

I saw Yoko in performance some years back with her son Sean. She was mind blowing.

Love

When I was in college I found Yoko's book of poetry, Grapefruit, at a used book store and thought it was a gem. Brilliant and original, unlike anything I'd ever seen. It's out of print but you can find copies on eBay. Someone is selling the first British edition for $1,375 US.

Perhaps the rumor of her keeping him drugged explains how she was able to get his fortune....

To be so hated and reviled is power of a kind.

Oh My Love

It is said chuck berry wanted to smash his guitar into her fugly face so bad......

Johns life has always been run by strong women. I’m sure Cynthia Lennon thought it was about love, but it was actually sadistic. Yoko hired May Pang to get him away from her and Sean.

The more I read about the Beatles, the more I feel sorry for Paul. He was my least favourite, but after reading countless books, Paul is simply amazing. He allows people to believe what they want to believe. The others...Ringo is a shit towards his fans. (Side note: I mastered his drumming at age 10. Neil Peart, he is not). George was a complete shocker. I actually think he’s the worst.

George the worst? surely u jest. ur an ass and an ignoramous sir! may the Buddha piss on thee...

Like the way Harry uses Meghan Markle against his family.

I wonder if someday we'll have a thread entitled "Did Meghan ruin Harry?" when Harry is (probably) dead after a miserable life and Meghan is the gay widow, styling herself as some self-made Oprah type, galavanting around the world while Archie is in his 5th boarding school after being kicked out (probably for drugs). She some free range goodwill ambassador, do-gooder type who takes digs & Wills & Kate and their spawn every chance she gets.

Not to hijack the thread, but it did make me think about the parallels of a strong woman taking over the life of an otherwise high profile, weak, not terribly bright, child-man and alienating that person from their family & friends, however fucked up they may be. She's a polarizing figure and the public largely hates, only making child-man love her more, because it validates his own feelings of resentment & persecution. She uses her celebrity to make herself more important than she ever was without him. Makes you think, eh?

George tried to buy a 15 yr. old from one of his employees. This is not hard to look up.

Did she scream like yoko?

John Lennon ruined John Lennon.

r109, he was 17.

Yoko, is like most sociopaths. They hook onto the most financially vulnerable. They play the weakness, so they become in charge. Turning them against family and friends. Yoko actually stalked John. These days, we would be totally creeped out for good reason. Back then, she was actually a social climber. Married 2 muscian /composers before setting her sites on John.

Yoko actually has a daughter from one of her previous marriages. Does anyone know anything about her?

For heaven’s sake, she’s not a sociopath. Men with a certain need are attracted to certain women who are strong. It’s yin/yang. You automatically assume it’s the woman taking advantage but it’s just the nature of the relationship. Why wouldn’t Yoko Ono be like every other woman at the time—she was really attracted to him. He was the biggest rock star star on the planet!

Calling women sociopaths and narcissists (and I’ve seen it done here before) is the easy way out for people who just don’t like the particular brand of women that these women are.

R129-I believe I read somewhere that she and John eventually tracked down Yoko's daughter with Tony Cox and that mother and daughter reconciled. after John's death. Her name is Kyoko Ono Cox, and she's a teacher.

Kyoko is quite attractive.

Years ago I worked with a designer of Yoko’s age, from a good family in Japan. He said those circles at the time were quite scandalized by Yoko, who was from a banking family and seen as the rebellious daughter.

To be fair, I recall a posting from another thread (around the holidays) in which the poster indicated that around that a home for mentally disabled adults in NYC had a previously unknown benefactor - Yoko -who apparently paid out significant $$ to support the school and did so with very little fanfare and no publicity. So I doubt she's a sociopath, though she's undoubtedly a piece of work.

I was listening to the Beatles on Spotify & was just thinking about John Lennon really gave the group the edge, cynical tone and creativity it needed to keep it from becoming Ed Sheerhan 1.0 (before Ed was born)

R133 I agree. Lennon's rage was what made the Beatles interesting.

If anything "ruined" John Lennon it was Arthur Janov. Lennon took Janov's primal scream therapy and purged himself of repressed fury over the loss of his mother. Afterwards, he was more at peace and became a less angry, less rebellious ex-Beatle. Good for him, bad for art?

r41, "young'uns" as you call them are hardly the people I look to when it comes to opinions on innovation or talent. Sorry, I don't trust the opinions f most 20 or 25 year-olds, because they're seeing something for the first time we've seen for years.

As for Ono, she was a minor but talented artist--she was certainly a minor and not very important member of the Fluxus movement, but she did have some performance pieces that are interesting and original. And she actually made a few decent songs. But that's all she wrote, talent-wise.

Everything that's been said about her social climbing, self-importance, and her culpability in Lennon's self-destructive behavior are at this late date all known to be facts. Add to that her ruthlessness when it came to how Lennon's ex-wife and first son were treated. Was some of the hatred she was the target of racially based? It certainly was. There was an Esquire magazine article about her and the title was, "John Rennon's Rittle Gloupie," accompanied by an illustration of her that made look like the enemy in WW2. Also, she was a woman. That article is proof there was a good deal of racism and misogyny directed at her. But it's far too convenient and unconvincing to say the vituperation she still experiences is because of her race or gender. She's kind of an asshole.

So was Lennon--abusive to his child, his ex-wife, and others, and an all-round douche. But he could also generous, funny, and charming. He certainly was a real artist and made great music after The Beatles, though some of his work was far from great.

Ono, by the way, is certainly losing it. She walks with a cane (a friend of mine saw her recently in a wheelchair) and if you want to see just how far she's declined, check out the video of her when Lennon got a commemorative stamp. She rambled, mentioned Hitler, and in general seemed like she had beginning dementia. Sean basically pulled her off the stage.

that You all are showing your age. All the young'uns I know worship Yoko as a person who pursued her art and made music defiantly her own in the face of universal scorn. They see her as a feminist icon.

—Anonymous 2 reply 41

Ever hear her "sing"? That's how she fucked.

R137 There is a cut on the “double fantasy” album where she basically makes sex sounds all the way to climax. Apparently she was a screamer.

Also, Lennon was hardly a ruined man when he died. He was a compromised man who became a murder victim.

Yoko seems like she could have been a great artist had she not been brought up rich and, by her own admission, spoiled.

I think if John hadn't had the Beatles, Stu Sutcliffe, Cynthia and a handful of others supporting him when he was younger, he would have been as big as mess as Ono was when she was the same age. Her second husband helped her out quite a bit even after they split (but didn't divorce) but otherwise she really didn't have much of a support system. Both were supremely messed up, but I think it was a case of their problems co-existing in a rather harmonious way.

"For heaven’s sake, she’s not a sociopath."

Well, I don't think she's completely psychologically normal, but then, I think she has narcissistic tendencies, possibly narcissistic personality disorder. But then, who would be totally normal after the childhood she had!

Not that playing Armchair Psychologist has anything to do with her relationship with Lennon. He was with her because he wanted to be with her, wanted to be with her so badly he dumped his wife and braved public scorn for love... or need. She didn't manipulate him into making a fool of himself before the world, he did it of his own free will, because Yoko fulfilled some need he had. Who knows what that need was, Lennon was one giant basket of unfulfillable needs, he spent his whole life turning the world upside down in an attempt to deal with his own inner turmoil, and it never worked. The turmoil was still there, regardless of fame or Yoko.

Jealous Guy

[quote] It's been speculated that his sudden dumping of Pang was due to some kind of hypnosis or mind control machinations that were used on him during the visit to Yoko.

Those Japanese women and their sneaky mind-control powers!

[quote] But then, who would be totally normal after the childhood she had!

???

She lied and said she had been starving and homeless during the war, but biographers have completely debunked that story. She was raised in an extremely wealthy home, and even went to the same school as Emperor Akihito.

"She lied and said she had been starving and homeless during the war, but biographers have completely debunked that story."

I had not heard that the starving-during-the-war story had been debunked, but you know, I'm not at all surprised.

McCartney's BPD second wife went around telling similar stories back when she had the media's attention, saying she came from a horrible abusive home and had to steal to survive as a child. Funny about that.

Tomorrow Never Came - Lana del Rey (Music video) ft Sean Ono Lennon

Solid, concise analysis, R136. Well put

I'd say his songwriting became more interesting when he got involved with Yoko. If you listen to Lennon's songs on Revolver, you can tell that he was just coasting by that point. He met Yoko just before they started recording Sergeant Pepper, if I remember rightly.

They both were/are assholes of the highest order.

There are countless abusive assholes who were also brilliant artists, as we all know. It's whether you as the viewer/consumer can separate the art from the artist. This writer thinks you shouldn't.

[quote]The extent to which we regard art as separate from an artist ought to, and can be gauged by a simple gut check. It should be pretty simple—if knowing what you know about an artist changes how you see and understand an artwork, then the argument that calls for separating the artist from the art isn’t valid.

A troubled mind needs to be creative in order to resolve personal issues. Brilliant artists often have a difficult childhood or a troubled life. Most people become less creative as they age and become more successful in life. People can challenge their minds intellectually in order to maintain their creativity. When John was a wealthy house husband, he used to challenge himself intellectually by reading books to get creative ideas.

Yoko challenged him intellectually and creatively. He needed that. He was getting stal with the boys from back home. America gave him that chance to grow. Just as it had given Yoko.

If she hadn't got her hooks into John Lennon no one would know who Yoko Ono was.

R153 Certainly she'd not be as well known but students of art will know Yoko.

Yoko was squarely in the Fluxus pantheon.

David Spinozza, a brilliant session musician, was called upon to work on an album with Yoko. She tried to latch onto him the same way she did with John, but it didn't work out. At any rate, he showed up to work on her album and come to find out she had prepared no songs or music, just some sheets of paper with a few chord numbers on it (Yoko could not play an instrument or even sing on key). So he showed up to play on an album but had no music to work with. He basically had to create the music himself, along with other session guys, and Yoko would just say things like "give it more drive" and they would try to figure out what she meant.

In an interview Spinozza talked about artists he had worked with. Paul McCartney: "a brilliant songwriter and singer, a very creative man." John Lennon: "he worked really fast in the studio. He came in here, here's the song, let's do a take. He liked to work quickly." Paul Simon: "a little difficult. A bit of a taskmaster. Sessions went on for a very long time." About Yoko Ono he had only this to say:

Interviewer: 'You also worked with Yoko Ono. Anything you'd like to say about it?'

David Spinozza: "I certainly did and no."

Yoko with Sean, Kyoko, and grandchildren

John with Julian, Yoko and her daughter, Kyoko

Kyoko looks like she turned out ok. Nice looking family. I wonder what part of the fortune she’ll get.

Thanks for the link, r150, but that's a very stupid and regressive little article. I quote: "Despite such a transparent biography of what is at the very least a problematic relationship with women (let’s be real, it’s downright misogynistic), the societal 'we' refuses to see Picasso as anything other than a genius." That's because he WAS a genius.

The piece does nothing to support the writer's argument and it has nonsensical statements like this one: "But to use that line of thinking as an undisputed rule in art is a mistake that preys upon and chooses to ignore victims of institutionalized power in favor of a more convenient deification of the status quo."

Drivel.

There's really no point in debating whether everyone should shun artists because of bad behavior, it's an individual decision and that decision is made on emotional grounds. Whether people want to admit it or not.

The sight or sound of Michael Jackson repels me, so I don't listen to anything he did. The sound of Wagner operas thrills me and it's not like the man is making royalties from my Ring Cycle tickets, so I go to Ring Cycles. But since I'm not a control freak, if someone else tells me that they'd never go to a Wagner opera because they loathe the man's beliefs, I say "Okay, that's fine". And the world would be a better place if everyone handled the issue of badly behaved artists the same way.

I just went down a rabbit hole in an article that details every owner in the 65-unit Dakota. Holy shite. Of course, the levels of wealth, power, and prestige were to be expected, but it exceeded my imagination. Interestingly enough, the building seems to continue to have a balance of owners who are in medicine, law, science, and the arts to the day. And of course, they all seem to have inherited vast wealth. There are still some old money families tied to the building. I wonder what it’s like living by Yoko? Obviously, she’s settled down, but it must have been quite colorful at one point. Didn’t she leave Sean to fend for himself with Michael Jackson as a pre-teen?

It's just occurred to me that John Lennon has now been dead for almost as long as he was alive. Strange thought.

I concur r161. It is easier to name artists who are *not* warped, there are so few.

For those who would like a deep dive into the Dakota.

r161, one question: Do you agree with Wagner's anti-Semitic beliefs?

That's a bullshit question, r166, and I'm not r161. You can enjoy someone's work and be repelled by their beliefs. Do you really not know that?

"Interestingly enough, the building seems to continue to have a balance of owners who are in medicine, law, science, and the arts to the day." Actually, r162, that's not true. When Albert Maysles, the documentary filmmaker, tried to sell his apartment and prospective buyers kept getting rejected, he decried what he saw as the Dakota board being more interested in money than diversity, and the flood of Wall Street types who were populating the building.

R167, perhaps you are correct, but in reading through the link at r65, there are quite a few from the arts which is why I made that statement.

When reading on history of the building itself, it was a magnet for theater queens before it became a co-op in the 60’s, so it would shock me if the culture of the building is changing toward the negative. Isn’t that what’s happening everywhere?

Also r167, how could the board not be motivated by money when the cheapest unit is just shy of $4 million? The cost to maintain the building must be astronomical, ergo, they want buyers to have deep pockets.

Bitch, I’m rich and scream all the way to the bank on my eightieth birthday !!

Yoko comes from money. A lot of people from welltodo backgrounds and developed countries come to New York as artist migrants, then as well as... now too imagine.

People like John come to America to also expand their careers and make more money.

Both he and Yoko were among the many searchers in New York.

Obviously Mike Douglas trusted them enough to host his show.

[quote]You can enjoy someone's work and be repelled by their beliefs. Do you really not know that?

R167 The point is, some people apparently can't. Okay, so you look down on them, we get it.

[quote] I just went down a rabbit hole in an article that details every owner in the 65-unit Dakota. Holy shite. Of course, the levels of wealth, power, and prestige were to be expected, but it exceeded my imagination.

R162 , could you list some of these owners? I'm interested to know. TIA.

They are all on the link at r165. I wasn’t familiar with any of them (I’m not rich nor do I live in NYC), but their collective resumes are mind-blowing, at least to me.

"[R161], one question: Do you agree with Wagner's anti-Semitic beliefs? "

R161 here, and fuck NO! I do not share any of Richard Wagner's anti-semitic beliefs, and if the man were in any way able to benefit from performances of his music then I might feel a bit of conflict. But no, he's been mouldering in the grave and/or sizzling in Hell for over a century, so I'm not fussed about seeing "Tristand und Isolde".

But if you're repelled by Wagner's beliefs, it's okay if you don't want to join me.

In The Dakota, there used to be some smaller "maid's apartments". I wonder if Yoko bought all of those. They were small studio apartments facing the interior and were designed for maids and nannies of the rich people who lived there.

If I understood what I read correctly r177, those spaces were converted into apartments as well. I saw photos of some that have angled/dormer style room, and some had windows along one side. Very hobbit.

r178, I went into one several years ago. It was on the market and I was curious. But they must have been absorbed by the bigger apartment renovations because there used to be more apartments in that place than that article lists.

[quote]biographers have completely debunked that story

Untrue. During the war the family (minus the father) was sent to the country, but the retreat they were meant to stay at either couldn't or wouldn't take them, so they ended up living in the woods and bartering some of their family possessions for food. The father stayed in Tokyo and was held in a concentration camp for a while toward the end of the war and afterwards. They didn't lose all of the family wealth and had other family members who helped them out, but they were never wealthy enough to completely avoid the hardships of war.

She enrolled in the same school the future emperor attended AFTER the war, not during.

R180 interesting. I didn't know that.

Huge bummer sean turned out to be such an untalented bore, living off daddys fame and $$$$.

The Dakota used to be a home for celebrities of varying degrees of wealth; now, apart from those who've lived there for years, it's filled with hedge fund types. There are plenty of people with money enough to live there, but the board doesn't care how much money you have, as much as they care about how much money you have AND are you going to be a nuisance to have living in the building. Hence, the board rejections of Madonna, Cher, etc.

Why did all the celebrities take up residence on the West Side? Was it because all the old money was on Fifth Avenue?

You can google the history of The Dakota. When it was built, that part of Manhattan was still farmland. It was audacious to build a luxury building that remotely west. Their friends on the Upper East Side wouldn't cross the park to visit (at first).

"... the board doesn't care how much money you have, as much as they care about how much money you have AND are you going to be a nuisance to have living in the building."

To be fair, having celebrities attract gunmen to your doorstep can affect your preference in neighbors.

The San Remo also didn't want Madonna. Even Diane Keaton pleading with the co-op board wouldn't sway them.

Yoko seems to like thin men with glasses. I suppose the glasses made them look intellectual.

Seen here with her second husband, Tony Cox, the father of her daughter, Kyoko

The man who was her companion after Lennon was gay antiques dealer Sam Havadtoy, until he moved to Hungary.

[quote]Huge bummer sean turned out to be such an untalented bore, living off daddys fame and $$$$.

I guess he inherited his mother's talent.

Despite a horrible childhood and an unfocused, dissolute period in his youth Julian Lennon seems very sensible and well grounded now. He went through a lot. Ignored by his father while growing up, he and his mother abandoned by John after he ran off with Yoko, he and his mother left with little after the divorce...the life of the son of one of the most popular musicians in the world was not what it was cracked up to be. After his half-brother Sean was born it must have really burned Julian to hear John rhapsodize over his "beautiful boy" and to see photos of his distant father cuddling and lavishing attention on him. Sean was also quite spoiled and indulged, as Julian had definitely not been. All the publicity about John being a "house husband" and staying home to "look after the baby" must have been excruciating. It must have made Julian feel like crap.

R191 by all accounts Sean and Julian are close. However Julian felt about the difference of treatment between them, it didn’t seem to affect his relationship with Sean.

R192 Julian used to babysit Sean when they were little. They remain close.

Julian has always stated he has a good relationship with Sean. But I'm sure it ate at him that Sean was the favored child.

He was Obviously a very weak man.

Julian and Sean both seem like nice guys. I do hope Julian gets a decent share of the dough, though.

"I do hope Julian gets a decent share of the dough, though."

He only got what Yoko deigned to give him. He talked about it on a talk show; he said he had to accept what she chose to give him or nothing at all. He also expressed anger at having to buy back mementos of his father's. Some of them were auctioned off, rather than given to Julian. So he had to buy them back. He thought that auctioning off his father's belongings was a shitty thing to do. I think so too.

That is *disgusting* r197. She really is a terrible person — so was John. Ah well, still like his music.

I'm pretty sure i remember reading that Julian took Yoko to court over the little amount that she gave him of his father's fortune. And I believe they came to some kind of "undisclosed settlement" which was substantially more than what she originally gave him.

DId I imagine that?

R199-No, I don't think so, Any benefit of the doubt I would ever give Yoko has been wiped out by how appallingly she treated Julian. It was vindictive.

Which "John Lennon"?

I can understand stiffing Julian of cash if you're a greedy, grasping groupie, but why deny him personal mementos? Obviously Lennon's personal mementos can fetch nice prices at auction, but that's just cruel.

r202 because Julian's father was a different 'John Lennon' than the one this Yoko married?

Those two pictures are probably 20 years apart in R201, and he looked much older than 40, drugs and anorexia will do that to a person.

John really did look older than his years by the time of his death at 40. Sad.

r204, I can't imagine what kinds of things you believe if you believe a human being's nose makes that sort of transformation over any period of time.

Which one is "John Lennon"?

How about these guys? Is one of these two completely different men "John Lennon"?

I think Broadway needs a revival of Beatlemania!!

(Better than A Chorus Line, my ass!!)

The medical personnel who examined John Lennon's body after his death were amazed at the condition it was in. He was in terrible shape. I guess he was. There were all those years of heavy drinking. All those years of drugging, including heroin addiction. And there was his awful "macrobiotic" diet. He and Yoko, even while junkies, thought they were leading a "healthful" life by eating little more than soggy vegetables and bean sprouts. At the time of his death he was thin as a rail and had that aged, sunken in face. This incredibly wealthy man was malnourished. His thinking was obviously very disordered. He considered sugar "poison" and would not all Sean to have any, in any form. He wouldn't touch sugar but would partake daily of pot, hash, cocaine. And he smoked like crazy (so did Yoko). Some health nuts!

John was known for being a bit chubby when the Beatles first got big. He obviously got very thin later in life, probably due to drugs.

[quote]He and Yoko, even while junkies, thought they were leading a "healthful" life by eating little more than soggy vegetables and bean sprouts.

But it was said that they ate at Tavern on the Green all the time. And there used to be a bakery on West 73rd Street that had a picture of John sitting at one of their tables and they said he stopped in a lot.

John was one of the oldest looking 40-year-olds I've ever seen. His obsession over his weight along with all the drugs and smoking played a role. I remember one biographer recounted that John became obsessed with how fat he appeared on screen.

R213 apparently a reporter called him “the fat Beatle” in 1965 and started it.

Interesting parallel photos of Yoko and Paul. John was NOT subtle.

The photos didn’t load properly - click on the above picture to load

Which couple is John & Yoko and which couple are doppelgangers? Both photos were taken during their honeymoon. Is John the guy on the left with the trouser snake or the taller guy on the right with the pee stain?

How do you explain both of these men being "John Lennon" other than "John Lennon" being a public character played by multiple men?

WARNING - This post concludes with a photo of the corpse of "John Lennon" in the morgue. If that's something you don't want to see, scroll past it or close this thread. The "John Lennon" who was toe tagged is 'inexplicably' missing at least one ear. Having been shot only in the chest and shoulder, there was no need to examine the skull or brain to determine cause of death in an autopsy, much less remove the corpse's ear/s. This indicates that the body was missing the ear/s pre-death. Why? Ears are as individual as fingerprints, they are used for the purposes of biometric identification and, barring injury or intentional augmentation, the inner contours remain consistent throughout a human's life. --- [quote]Dr. Stephen Lynn, the physician who attended to Lennon after he had been shot, admitted evidence had been destroyed. He said everything, including Lennon's bloodstained clothes, was destroyed. He also said the medical records were given to an administrator and put in a vault. It is most troubling that the hospital destroyed evidence in a murder investigation. The medical records, clothes, and other evidence should have been given to investigators, not put in a vault or destroyed. Destroying evidence in a murder investigation is rendering criminal assistance in the first degree in some states. --- [quote]In a strange twist, Dr. David Halleran says HE was the one who treated Lennon - not Lynn. "[N]either Lynn nor Marks even touched Lennon's body." Halleran still didn't know anything about his patient. As he and a team of nurses tried to restore the man's vital signs, a nurse told Halleran that the man looked familiar. "During this time one of the nurses said, that looks like John Lennon. I said 'No that is not John Lennon." Even after seeing Lennon's wallet, Halleran was skeptical but another doctor who had arrived at the hospital confirmed it. The man they were working on was one of the most famous people in the world. --- [quote]Lennon's body was cremated the next day, despite Lennon's "horror of cremation" (according to biographer Albert Goldman). Obviously, this made it impossible to later exhume the body to search for evidence. There are some problems with the theories we have been told about how the shooting went down that an examination may have been able to resolve. [quote]Imagine the theory we've been told: that Lennon had walked past Chapman, who was to the right and then rear of him in the dark entryway. If Chapman had called out, "Mr. Lennon," and John stopped and turned, it was possible though difficult for him to hit Lennon in the left shoulder, and then as Lennon turned to flee, to hit him in the upper left back. Yet Chapman told Judge Dennis Edwards at a sentencing hearing that he didn't say anything to Lennon, just that he fired. [quote]Imagine a second theory: Perdomo or another operative fired from the doorway leading to the service elevator, which was at the left of the walkway and in front of Lennon. There are two series of two shots. First, two shots hit the left shoulder. As Lennon runs towards the lobby stairway, two other shots hit his upper left back. Shooting from that doorway seems a more plausible way to make those hits. [quote]Since the autopsy was not made public, we don't know if three of the five shots exited, grazed or missed Lennon to hit the glass lobby door. --- [quote]A set of John Lennon's fingerprints that were being auctioned for at least $100,000 was seized by the FBI on October 6, 2010. Peter Siegel, co-founder of GOTTA HAVE IT!, the shop selling the fingerprint card, said he was bewildered by the FBI action and interest during the week also by Homeland Security. He said, "This great icon has been deceased for 30 years," he said. "This is not a national threat." This occurrence bolsters the theory that John was replaced. Why would the Feds care if his fingerprints were in the public domain? --- [quote]Yoko Ono, says "the last John I remember is a very gregarious, energetic, high-spirited guy." Does this not sound like the last "John" in a series of "Johns?"

Danf, that's the first time I hear John Lennon was replaced too. What about George and Ringo though?

People who believe in "multiple Beatles" are the new freaks.

r220, all of 'The Beatles' were played by a cast of multiples. Look at pictures of them in 1957.

Hey, who's the conspiracy theory/doppelganger freak? Do fuck off, cunty. No one is interested. That there's one of you is more than enough.

Hey, doppelganger troll, 1969 called. They want their replacement Beatle rumor back.

WTF? This "Paul is dead" stuff crap happened 50 years ago!!! Why is it making a comeback now?

The Ad Hominem Attacker sure is oddly, furiously invested in demeaning those who have posted images that raise questions about the identity/ies of Lennon and, yet, they provide no counter arguments to the biometric anomalies shown. But you just keep enjoying rage bender and lacking the self-awareness to realize how very unhinged you're coming off.

For the rest of you, I have a close friend who is buddies with a bunch of people in Sean Lennon's scene. He and his bandmate have been pretending to be in a relationship for years.

Um... they sound unhinged, r226? Really?

r227, you may be suffering from prosopagnosia, otherwise known as face blindness. It's a disorder that causes people to be unable to visually differentiate between individuals with, for instance, similar coloring or who are encountered only in specific group contexts, etc. I'm linking to a test for it that anyone can take right now:

R228... or, I might be sane.

[quote]they provide no counter arguments to the biometric anomalies shown

Silly me for thinking the guy just lost weight and got older. What if we're all being slowly replaced? *gasp*

Yoko & Linda both attended Sarah Lawrence, coincidentally.

"But you just keep enjoying rage bender and lacking the self-awareness to realize how very unhinged you're coming off."

Oh, my sides, r226.

Calling Bellevue for r226. We're getting the rubber room ready.

"But it was said that they ate at Tavern on the Green all the time. And there used to be a bakery on West 73rd Street that had a picture of John sitting at one of their tables and they said he stopped in a lot."

I don't know what they ate when they went out. But John was definitely malnourished at the time of his death. Supposedly Yoko liked chocolate; that's all she wanted to eat for a long time after John 's death. Anyway, John was very adamant about Sean's diet and allow him to eat no sugar at all, thinking it was toxic. That was kind of bizarre.

Yoko was the embodiment of the Stepmom from Hell when it came to poor Julian

Yoko was smart. She figured out John's whole "mother" thing and then established herself as the Mother of Mothers. It worked! Sending him off with May Pang and then calling him back to NY {and heroin} to get him off booze. He called himself a "rich housewife" and that's what he was. A rich housewife riding the horse in New York City.

[quote]Yoko & Linda both attended Sarah Lawrence, coincidentally.

What country did Sarah Lawrence reign over? I can't imagine Yoko being a Lady-In-Waiting. First of all, she's not tall enough.

You have to hand it to Yoko. She took control of the checkbook, made the investments and handled the portfolio. "Mother" took care of all that because that's what mothers do.

I think Linda McCartney was more egalitarian. She and Paul had the healthier relationship, or so it seemed. But both Paul and John hid behind their wives.

R237 The Beatles had bad experiences with shady and incompetent managers so that's why John and Paul let their wife or wife's family handle their finances. It was a smart move financially.

I don't think so, OP. When she accepted the Grammy Award for Double Fantasy, she seemed genuine.

Honey I was there...she was despised by ev body! No one could stand to be in the same room, and she got all his millions after all, and that icky son of hers.....IS THERE A GOD IN HEAVEN????

"Sistahs! Oh, sistahs! Ay yi yi yeeeeeee! Glorple broople stromm! Ay yeeeeeee!"

John called himself "Beatle Wife Number Three".

"IS THERE A GOD IN HEAVEN????"

No, r240, there isn't.

Watching footage of John and Yoko during the sixties it's easy to understand why people hated them with a passion. Their attempts at political activism were pathetic; it was all about THEM. They craved attention and they got it by doing stupid things like posing nude on an album cover (they both looked like shit naked) and holding "bed-ins" and practicing "bagism." They made fools of themselves.

That's enough out of you Mr. McCartney! r244.

I saw footage where Lennon listened politely to the rude reporters for awhile and then he let them have it. He was not one to suffer fools.

Yet he was one of the biggest fools, ironically. I think Paul wrote "Fool on the Hill" just for John.

I'll bet that none of the "fools" John "suffered" ever exposed their flabby body and shriveled penis for all the world to see. I'll also bet that none of those "fools" was ever seen in public with a Kotex stuck on his forehead, either.

Those stunts were funny. Two Virgins? Wearing Kotex? Where's your sense of humor? He was entertaining and yeah, he could be a fool and he admitted it.

[quote]How in the world you gonna see

[quote]Laughin' at fools like me

[quote]Who in the hell d'you think you are

[quote]A super star

[quote]Well, right you are

Stu and friend

It's pretty simple. We tend to marry a person who resembles our parent. John was raised by his Aunt Mimi, a real termagant. She ruled the household and her husband and John fell in line.

John rebelled against her, and he had his fun times with his actual mom, but Mimi always kept him on the straight and narrow.

When he knocked up Cynthia, he went crying to Mimi, telling her he didn't want to get married. Mimi told him it was too late and he had to do his duty.

Even as a grown man, he kept that connection with Mimi, fighting with her via letters.

And after milquetoast Cynthia, who gave him submissive love but never barked at him, never pushed back, he found Yoko - Mimi with pretensions to artistic ability.

Best of all, Yoko, really, REALLY pissed off everybody else important in John's life. He loved that.

Stu was absolutely beautiful.

Sandcastles made somebody horny

Stu and Astrid

Too bad Stuart Sutcliffe died so young He was a talented artist. As for Mimi being like Yoko...well, I guess they could both be called strong willed women. But Mimi was a no nonsense, ordinary English woman whereas Yoko was VERY weird. Her weirdness appealed to John. She did crazy things and he admired her for that. And he took her lead. If he'd never met her he never would have done all those nutty things he did during the sixties. And God knows he would never have become a sixties political activist; John Lennon didn't give a SHIT about "peace" and "love." Neither did Yoko, but their political activism sure brought them a lot of publicity which is what Yoko craved. John just followed along.

R255 Publicity is good for business especially for musicians.

"Publicity is good for business especially for musicians."

It is if it's the RIGHT publicity. John and Yoko got a lot of BAD publicity. They made asses of themselves; it didn't help their careers.

R255-Prince Harry and Meghan Markle are the John and Yoko of their day. They don't give a shit about any of their causes, but you better believe Meghan would be in a hotel bed virtue signaling if she thought she could break the internet.

[quote]but you better believe Meghan would be in a hotel bed virtue signaling if she thought she could break the internet.

I pretty much shocked the UK out of their Victorian mindset with my vadge steamer. Not much Markle can do to top that!

"Best of all, Yoko, really, REALLY pissed off everybody else important in John's life. He loved that. "

You're right, that was definitely part of the attraction!

Men who marry stone bitches do so deliberately, they love the way the bitch tells off everyone they'd like to tell off themselves. Believe me I know, that's how my own parents' marriage works.

I just don't see a straight male being attracted to yoko or Linda. Men strive to gain wealth to attract pretty females. The Beatles were so intense. No way they could sustain that.

I think, r261, that Paul and John cheated on Linda and Yoko with many—MANY—pretty girls.

"I just don't see a straight male being attracted to yoko or Linda. Men strive to gain wealth to attract pretty females."

R262 is correct! A lot of straight men want their wife to be more maternal than glamorous, especially if they can get glamour elsewhere. IMHO Linda Eastman came along when McCartney was looking for a wife to give him a family, she gave him a family of a little McCartneys and a lovely vegetarian home and a happy private life, she gave him what she wanted at the time when he wanted it, and if she'd come along earlier then he'd have married someone else when he felt it was time to settle down.

And as 2/3 of the posters on this thread have said, Yoko was also a bit of a dark-sided mother-figure for Lennon. He cheated on her, of course, and not just with Pang.

R263-exactly-as has been said several times, both John and Paul lost their mothers young and married women who fulfilled maternal roles for them.

Reply 264, dear lord. Men are not looking for a mother. They want someone who is hot and someone who they can show off.

R265-you really don't know a lot of straight men, do you? A surprising many them want wives/partners who will mother them.

Yoko was 7.5 years older and not hot. He often called her "Mother." I'd say he was looking for a mother.

And at the same time I find it unlikely that he was that deeply in the closet. He is known to have hooked up with hoards of groupies back in the day. He was messed up in so many ways, so why not this one.

R265, I was just going to post what r266 said. Just about every straight man I know married a version of his mother.

R268-It's really true. I'd say that's the case for all my straight friends. Interestingly, it seems like a lot of women I know go to lengths to marry men who are completely unlike their fathers. Back on topic, John clearly wanted a mother, to a disturbing degree.

Lennon's mommy issues were the least interesting thing about him. He was good at sticking a pin in people's illusions about him. Like in this Apple Records press conference he was asked about the Beatles' trip to India to see Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the guru they "followed" for a time @ about 12:20...

Q: "Why do the Beatles meditate?"

JOHN: "Because it seems to be nice, like cleaning your teeth, you know. It does have some sort of end product. I think Maharishi was a mistake, but the teachings have got some truth in them."

Q: "What do you mean he was a mistake?"

JOHN: "We made a mistake."

Q: "Do you think other people are making a mistake to go see him now?"

JOHN: "That's up to them."

Q: (asks question away from microphone)

JOHN: "We're human."

(laughter)

Dear lord, John and Paul were clearly gay. Duh. Straight guys want a slim feminine pretty girl with no opinions.

John probably had some sexual experiences with guys, but not Paul. He always struck me as one of those guys who can't bear not having a woman around to fuck him and coddle him.

Agree, R272. I remember when Linda died a crabby music journalist predicted Paul wouldn't stay single for long because he needed a woman constantly by his side to nurture him and tend to his needs. I found that incredibly callous, but wouldn't you know, he was right on the money as exhibited by the horrendous Heather Mills.

I'll never believe Yoko was anything but a golddigger. She stalked his house where he lived with his wife Cynthia, eventually seduced him, exploited his weaknesses, eventually took control of him and his money, and created distance between him and his son by Cynthia, Julian. After John's death Julian had to sue Yoko for part of the estate and it took 10 years but she finally (and wisely) made a settlement with Julian for part of the money. Sadly Julian has had to buy back some of his father's memorabilia at auctions. I would say yes, Yoko ruined John somewhat, by exerting so much control over him. However the common belief that she "broke up the Beatles" is false. They were ready to break up anyway and she just happened to be around when they did.

Agree, R274. Lennon wanted out of the Beatles but he wasn't man enough to quit on his own so he used and hid behind Yoko. He was a total coward - like all bullies, ultimately.

I have yet to forgive them for this creation

That's clearly the best way to go through life: form an immutable opinion, according to your biases, and reject any new information that challenges your stance or outright contradicts it. That's the way idiots trudge through the world, incapable of changing their minds because they don't have minds to change, they cannot process new information and they hate learning.

R277 Nobody's buyin' what you're sellin' Doppleganger Troll but thanks for playin'. Here's a little poster for your wall...

I think in the end, John was a handful. Someone very strong and determined was needed to manage him.

How can Yoko possibly think her yodeling is anything more than ear torture?

So John kicked Stu Sutcliffe in the head during a drunken night out and Stu later died from a brain hemorrhage? Talk about instant kharma.

r280, you're really missing the point. Why don't you look up Yoko's inspiration for 'the sound of women'?

John Lennon was ruined before Yoko came into the picture. He had a shitty childhood and abandonment issues. He was also a narcissist. But because of the macho culture of the time and lack of awareness of mental health. He was too proud to own up to his shortcomings and admit his mental problems early on. He did seem to be turning around for the better before the time of his death especially when he was trying to reconnect with his son Julian and probably realized his relationship with Yoko was an unhealthy and mutually abusive one.

I still think it's ridiculous to blame Yoko for everything Lennon did. His marriage to Cynthia was going to end regardless and he would have found another mother-figure/muse to leave her for. The only shitty thing about Yoko really is her "singing", her horrific treatment of Julian and brainwashing Sean into becoming a clone of his father.

Yoko probably did ruin her daughter Kyoko with being a shitty mother. She's not very maternal.

Yes.

[quote] I've read that Yoko was in a mental ward back in Japan.

How'd she escape?

Lennon's mother's family were a bunch of judgmental assholes, and they forced Julia into making a lot of choices that caused more problems than solved. Julia also rebelled against her family and caused plenty of her own problems, but I suspect she would have made (at least a few) better choices had she not been pretty much raised by wolves. John was the product of her family's poor decisions, her poor decisions, and a brutal cultural upbringing in a terrible time in the UK.

I suspect John, like a lot of abused kids, went into all of his relationships without fully understanding that he had a warped idea of what constituted normal adult behavior. Yoko is odd and she was terrible to her first daughter, and she has been at times awful to John's family and Sean in particular, and I would imagine that's just what John wanted, consciously or not.

So no, she didn't ruin him, she just happened to tick off a lot of the boxes that John was looking for in a partner.

^ Sorry, I meant Julian, not Sean.

This weekend when I was channel surfing, I ran across a show on PBS about the artistic collaboration between John and Yoko. It included interviews with a lot of people like Ringo and Paul and Jann Wenner. It looked like it was filmed about 20 years ago.

Did Sean get a nose job just to resemble his father more? He looked way more Japanese as a kid and he had a wider nose. I really think Yoko raised Sean to be his father's clone and not an individual. Julian actually naturally resembles his father and his vocal similarly is due to genetics and regional accent. Sean sounds like he was trained to mimic Lennon in his singing despite him being American.

Sean today. I think he had some work done. If you watch video interviews of him as a child, he is clearly rehearsed to praise his father almost robotically. He has no identity

Yoko's visual art is actually really cool. She is talented in that regard. Just like Linda was a good photographer. Now they both should not have been allowed near a microphone or near an instrument.

Everybody has a relative whose spouse they hate & cant imagine why they got married & can’t fathom why their relative stays with them. “S/he was such a cool person until s/he met that asshole/bitch.”

I've started to wonder if John Lennon had Borderline Personality Disorder.

His desperate attachment to unsuitable people, the unreasonable hatred after the breakups, the self-destructive behavior and general lifelong instability. Whaddya guys think?

It's all his fault. John was an asshole, and maybe he liked having a scapegoat whom people could blame for his assholish behavior to his former bandmates, his fans, and worst of all his ex-wife and little boy. Yoko was an opportunistic parasite who won the lottery when the rich and famous John chose her as his scapegoat.

Sean had that nose as a kid, though.

Were any of the Beatles straight? John was gay,right?

John apparently was bisexual. Yoko outright said so and Paul both implied this. George and Ringo were pussyhounds.

R161 Thank You.

YOKO OH NO sweetie! No no no!