Caroline Kennedy

[quote] She got none of the Kennedy looks

Uh? She looks exactly like a Kennedy with that toothy grin. Yes, she's intelligent, but she cannot speak without saying "you know" and "um" every few seconds.

She has her mother's far-set eyes.

What you mean to say is she got none of the Bouvier looks. Her brother inherited those.

She got the Kennedy womens' looks.

Unfortunate. Ethel's a sister-in-law but she played - and still plays - for the team.

In about 20 years, Caroline will be making numerous publicity rounds when her son runs for president.

R2 Her daughter Rose looks a lot like Jackie. I bet Rose thanks god she got the Bouvier looks instead of the hideous Kennedy genes.

Well stated OP.

Yes, JFK Jr. got all the hot Bouvier looks. Caroline unfortunately looks like her horse-faced Kennedy aunts.

I bet Caroline is MUCH happier she got the brains rather than the looks--she would have known not to fly the plane that evening (in fact, she was smart enough never to take up flying like her stupendously dim brother did).

Here's a photo. She's 62.

Truthfully, I never understood the fuss over the Kennedy brothers looks. Perhaps it had more to do with power but I didn't think any of them were enormously attractive.

You can see traces of her mother Jackie in this photo.

Don't know why she's in this horrid dress.

Looks like something from a Tent And Awning Company.

I wonder why she never got her teeth fixed

R12 That photo was taken at the Met Gala the year they honored Rei Kawakubo and everyone wore something from Comme des Garçons.

R7 not horse face but that extreme square jaw. Which is almost always so unattractive on a woman.

Courtney Thorne Smith (the only pretty woman I can think of with that shape face) looks like a much prettier version of Caroline.

[quote] That photo was taken at the Met Gala the year they honored Rei Kawakubo and everyone wore something from Comme des Garçons.

LOL! Like that excuses its unflattering awfulness on her.

In my opinion, all four Kennedy brothers were very handsome in their youth. It's the sisters who weren't that good-looking - except for Rosemary who was sadly lobotomized.

Because R13, people of a certain class have the confidence not to need to have what Americans refer to as “perfect” teeth.

Huh, OP. Maria Shriver is just as smart -- except when she's hiring maids.

^. The maid was no looker. She was sure Arnold would never grab that pussy.

[quote] It's the sisters who weren't that good-looking - except for Rosemary who was sadly lobotomized.

Kathleen was decent looking. She had Rose Kennedy's weird square jaw, but her face was not as sharp as her sisters'. Also, she was supposed to be wonderfully vivacious, which often improves people's looks.

Pat Kennedy was also pretty when she was younger, as long as she did not flash those grotesque teeth the children all possessed.

Jean Kennedy Smith is the only child of Rose and Joe who is still living, she's 92.

Jean (pictured) wasn't as pretty as Pat, but she also had Rosemary's vivaciousness in her looks.

All the sisters looked awful as they aged because they were heavy smokers. Eunice, the most hideous, looked especially worse and wore as she aged, prompting the "I've just took Maria to the face sharpener" jokes that used to be rife on DL while she was alive. Pat, who started out pretty, also looked terrible as she aged also because she and her philandering husband Peter Lawford were both heavy drinkers because their marriage was so unhappy.

I pick my fucking nose!!!!

Jean was the shyest of all the children, and since she was the baby among the girls, she was treated with the fewest expectations of achieving (or marrying) greatness as an adult. I think she was the one who brought Ethel Skakel to Bobby's attentions (the two women met as undergraduates at Manhattanville College in NYC).

Ethel, of course, with her teeth even more enormous than any of the Kennedy sisters, was and is absolutely no beauty, but she was stinking rich (her father was a prominent Chicago industrialist), and hugely interested in politics. She practically stalked the brothers until one of them married her.

I wonder which will last to live the longest: Ethel, Jean, or poor miserable Joan. They're all that's left of the generation of the siblings and their first spouses. (I don't count Victoria, who married into the family so long after the Camelot years.)

Jean also set up Ted and Joan.

Jean’s eldest son Stephen is gay, right? What the fuck did he do to his face?

[quote]All the sisters looked awful as they aged because they were heavy smokers.

Really? I didn't know that. I knew that Jackie smoked, of course, but I didn't know any of JFK's sisters were smokers. At least not later in life.

Out of the three, I think Jean will be the last one standing. Ethel has become very frail in recent years and Joan is a recovering alcoholic. Jean seems relatively healthy and able-bodied.

I've noticed the changes in Stephen's face. He looks like he was in a fire, suffered third degree burns and had reconstructive surgery, but I have no idea if that's what actually happened to him.

Mother, son, and daughter together.

I was always fascinated that out of all the Kennedy kids, they were the best looking. It's like they didn't get any of those weird big teeth Kennedy genes. How is that possible? I'm just amazed that two people who looked like Jackie and JFK could produce John Jr. Maybe if Maury was around back then, JFK could have taken her on the show for a DNA test.

R16 the point is, there’s no such thing as a piece of flattering Comme des Garçons clothing on ANYONE.

Whoever would have thought that raging alcoholic Joan Kennedy would live as long as she has, outliving almost everyone from that generation? The old bitch must have a cast iron liver.

Caroline is smart? Based on what? She has accomplished nothing other than being as irrelevant and anonymous as you can be as a Kennedy. Which I guess is something. But I’ve never thought of her as brilliant. Maybe not dumb like John John.

R31, You're surprised that JFK and Jackie produced JFK Jr.? I thought John looked exactly like his mother right down to the little baby teeth. John looked like Jackie and Caroline looked like Jack. I always wonder whom Patrick, the baby who died three days after birth, would have looked like.

Caroline was an ambassador to China under the Obama administration. Other than that, she pretty much lives a quiet life her Park Avenue apartment. She's kinda earned that right. She's been through a lot in her life as far as tragic family deaths playing out in the public eye.

And she has plenty of money too.so I'm sure she's taking it easy, I know I would.

John looked a lot like Jackie's father, Black Jack Bouvier.

All of the Bouviers were very attractive people. Even Little Edie, she was gorgeous as a young woman.

[quote]You're surprised that JFK and Jackie produced JFK Jr.?

I know that JFK and Jackie were supposed to be this gorgeous couple, but I never saw it. I thought they were average at best. JFKjr was stunning. Caroline was attractive too, but not on the same levels as Junior.

Caroline must still be so pissed off at her dumbass, but still loved, brother flying himself into the ocean.

R36, She was ambassador to Japan not China.

I'm also surprised that Joan is still around after all these years, but then again, she was the youngest of that generation, born in 1936. Sargent Shriver was the oldest, born in 1915. I hope Joan has found some peace in her life after all she's been through.

Jean quietly endured Stephen Smith's philandering for decades.

Her son is hawt!

[quote] Caroline is smart? Based on what?

Well, she did get into Harvard; and even though you think that would be automatic given who her father was, remember that her brother did not get in. (He had to go to Brown instead.) She also went to Columbia law school, graduating in the top ten percent of her class. She passed the New York bar (one of the very hardest of all the state bars to pass) on her first attempt--her brother didn't pass until his third try.

R39 The expression that Washington, D.C. is “Hollywood for ugly people” is true here. I do think JFK and Jackie were attractive people, but it’s not like there was much competition in the nation’s capital. Jackie’s predecessor was Mamie Eisenhower so the youth and glamour bar was pretty low when she arrived on the scene.

Jack Schlossberg has a nice body, but he's no looker. He got the worst of both parents' faces. He will be VERY homely when he's past 30.

Caroline has money, brains and the Kennedy name, but she still hasn't learned not to walk like an injured linebacker.

JFK Jr. may have been so handsome because his true father was possibly the Fiat magnate Gianni Agnelli (pictured here when young--you can see the resemblance).

[quote]I know that JFK and Jackie were supposed to be this gorgeous couple, but I never saw it.

JFK was more attractive when he was younger. Something made his face puffy, presumably the steroid treatment for his Addison's Disease.

Agnelli was not John Jr.'s bio father. Jr. was conceived during the 1960 campaign, every day of Jackie's life was documented during that time. Agnelli wasn't around.

Jackie was quite glamorous.

Can someone explain the Onassis thing. Was it love or money?

Wow, Jackie is gorgeous in R51's photo. It looks slightly retouched, but she was still very lovely.

Money and security ,r52.

The Kennedys started to reduce the income they were giving her from the Kennedy Trust after RFK’s death. And she freaked out after RFK’s assassination. She had to be sedated to calm down when she arrived in Los Angeles at his bedside. LBJ allowed the Kennedy family to fly home from LA on Air Force One. Jackie wouldn’t get on the plane until she was reassured that it was not the same plane she took from Dallas to Washington with JFK‘s body.

She had been seeing Onassis, and had told RFK she was thinking of marrying him . He asked her to wait until after the election and she agreed. His death just accelerated the timeline.

She cleaned during the Onassis marriage. She received $3 million up front for herself as a gift from Onassis, and a $1 million trust fund for each child. He gave her $30k a month as allowance plus unlimited charge card privileges at stores all over the world: She would run short every month and Onassis, Exasperated , cut her allowance to $20k a month.

That’s why her infamous shopping sprees occurred-she would go purchase 60 designer dresses or blouses at a store in one visit, then consign the bulk of them at a consignment shop on the Upper East Side, Encore.

She received millions in jewelry from Onassis as well as the use of the Christina, his flat in Paris and free first class airfare on his airline-she was notorious when married to Onassis for showing up at the Olympic Airways counter at JFK and demanding that the entire first class passenger list be bumped at the last minute for her. Once she went with him to visit oil executives in Iran. She received almost $700k in early 1970s dollars In gifts from the Iranians-gems, gold, rugs, etc.

The last straw for Onassis was when she tried to make him buy a villa in Acapulco . He refused, they bitterly fought and he changed his will and started looking into divorce proceedings.

He died. Her first call after his death was to Valentino to make sure she had a proper black dress to wear getting off the plane in Athens. At the funeral, Ted Kennedy confronted Christina Onassis about Jackie’s settlement from the estate ($26 million tax free).

In A Woman Named Jackie the author estimated that she received $42 million from Onassis over 6 years.

I love Jackie but her behavior during the Onassis marriage was abhorrent.

[quote] Can someone explain the Onassis thing. Was it love or money?

She married him for his beauty, of course.

If she had unlimited credit card privileges what in the f did she need an additional “allowance” for? I can’t imagine she was cooking her own meals.

I mean, you get carte blanche to charge up a storm, what else does a woman who marries for money need?

JFK Jr. was three years ahead of me in law school. A friend in his year said he wasn't the brightest bulb. I mean who fails the NY bar twice? By the way, 96 percent of NYU students pass the bar the first time.

John had dyslexia which probably affected his ability to pass the bar esp not being able to finish the exam because of having to read stuff over several times.

Thanks for the explanation R54. After reading your explanation, I would image that some probably whispered certain names about her... but it sounds like she leveraged what she had for a big pay day. And I say good for her. But regardless of that, she seems to have come out of it with her good reputation intact.

Has there ever been anything written about her feelings on JFK's many. many infidelities? Did she ever comment on the whole Marilyn Monroe thing?

I was surprised to learn John John was gay. Pretty much no doubt about it. His father had a gay friend living in white house. The kennedies were all ugly except John John. I suspect gayness runs in the Kennedy family. John John may have been good looking because he is gay. Ugly gays are less likely to have kids and pass on genes. Same idea as dwarfs having high iq's.

She's just a privileged piece of crap like every Kennedy. The third generation is starting to fade into drug addiction and alcoholism, started with Uncle Teddy and now invading the young 'uns. She married a rich and powerful man just like her mother. A couple of whores.

When Caroline was a little girl. she was very cute. Much cuter than John John was when he was little.

Then it all changed as they matured and John John took over in the looks department.

John John was an ugly duckling compared to Caroline when they were youngsters.

Things started to turn around for Caroline at about this time (adolescence?).

Caroline looked her best in adulthood on her wedding day. It was all downhill from there.

Upper class women like Jackie and Gore Vidals mother were high class prostitutes basically. They were taught from an early age it was all about marrying rich. Shocking in retrospect - but it was the only way a woman survived back then. The Onassis thing was extreme - in its blatancy. But understandable in light of the murders and the cheap-ass Kennedy Trust that cut out non-blood family.

Sweet Caroline with mom Jackie.

You'd never say that these two kids' looks would turn out the way they did.

The BIG LOOKS SWITCHEROO.

Please.

All of the sanctimonious outrage about what a "whore" Jackie O was, carries a whiff of Trump Rabidianism.

Yes, she peddled her pussy to Ari Onassis. So fucking what. Any of us would consider the same if the opportunity arose.

They both engaged in a purely transactional, arms-length deal; offer, acceptance and consideration. The consideration she received was security and money, the consideration Onassis received was the most famous , admired women in the world was his wife.

And if the trophy lost its luster to him because he didn't want to fund it anymore, that's on him, not her. He was a businessman. He knew the score. And apparently, he decided to cut his losses by a divorce.

It happens. Grow up.

I'm outraged. I'm outraged that the biggest John who ever Johnned, Vladimir Putin, has bought the the biggest whore who ever whored: Donald Trump, who's whored himself AND the Office of the US Presidency to Putin.

That's what I'll expend outrage on.

And yes, I'm consistent. I see the Melania and Donald Trump marriage in exactly the same way. She, however, revealed herself to be the complicit wife she is: she's totally on board with racist birtherism.

Now, having gotten that off my ample chest, I do so love Kennedy and Jackie threads.

R69 Agreed.

Jackie was talented at maximizing what she had.

R41 I stand corrected.

Caroline can look decent when she makes a bit of effort with hair and make-up. Thick hair, good bone structure, pretty eyes, albeit down-turned, giving her a sad expression.

[quote] If she had unlimited credit card privileges what in the f did she need an additional “allowance” for? I can’t imagine she was cooking her own meals.

I think r54 didn't explain this fully. According to C. David Heymann in A Woman called jackie , the unlimited credit card privileges were just for buying clothes. Drawing on his experience with his first wife, Tina, and with his mistress Maria Callas, Onassis had the bizarre old-fashioned notion that what society women wanted and needed was a fabulous wardrobe, and if he just gave them that, they would be happy. So the credit card budget was supposed to be just for clothes. So, for a while Jackie's trick was to buy tons of high end clothing from department stores, and then return them to Manhattan consignment shops for cash; and many people have attested that yes, the upper east Side consignment stores were full of her discarded clothing during this period.

He spent most of his time in Athens running his empire, and she stayed in Manhattan, so he didn't understand much of what was going on. I'm still not entirely sure what she spent all her money on during this period since he paid for Caroline to go to Brearley and for John-John to go to Collegiate, but I guess if you're a society woman those bills can just rack up.

[quote] All of the sanctimonious outrage about what a "whore" Jackie O was, carries a whiff of Trump Rabidianism.

No it absolutely does not. What a ridiculous comparison. (And speaking of "sanctimonious"...)

R14 How many pieces by Comme des Garçons did Andre Leon Talley wear? I suspect he started with the pink number in the middle as a foundation garment, then just piled on the others until everything was covered.

Remember when she briefly ran for some office? She did an appearance with Al Sharpton that was awful, she was so inarticulate, all "ums" and "uhhs." That was that. I'm sure she's a nice person. I wonder what her marriage is like.

it was more than money with onassis. She was always always into daddy type figures. Her mother, Janet, was a violent child abuser and Jackie spent as much time away from her with black jack as possible. The kennedy trust was not reduced prior to her marrying Onassis, she got $200k a year from it since the assasination. When she married Onassis she was no lnger entitled to the yearly trust. The only unique thing about her financial relationship with the kennedy s is mid way thru her marriage to JFK she was thinking about divorcing him and Joe Kennedy bribed her with a 1 mil trust set up for each kid with Jackie in control of the trust. None of the other kennedy wives got that perk. By marrying Onassis she gave up the spousal trust and it reverted to the kids. Onassis agreed to some financial arrangement with her but it wasnt much considering he was worth abot $500 million in 1968 money. He got really irked with her at the end of the marriage and had greek law changed as to widows rights in greece. He gave her use of his precious yacht but she had to pay 1/2 the yearly upkeep which was 2 million. He did this as kind of a spiteful joke. The will only gave her 200k a year as the onassis widow, the same amt she had with JFK before she gave it up when marrying him. She negotiated with Christina for the 26 million after taxes which was probably about 5% of the total value of the estate. So I would say Jackie was not all that money grubbing really. I think Onassis was the ideal mate until he started screwing around with Callas again and then Jackie became openly hostile. JFK jr got his grandfathers looks in my opinion.

According to Heymann and others, she actually was not that good of a mother to her children when they were in school, despite the myth to the contrary: she was not very attentive, and did not attend their sport events that were so important to them. Onassis did however, and would come to the US just to see Caroline's horseback riding events. He really enjoyed the kids and had felt he had neglected Alexander and Christina when they were growing up (which he did), so as an older man enjoyed seeing them.

Why didn't Jackie set Caroline up with Prince Charles? Was Caroline too old for Charles or perhaps didn't keep herself "tidy," as Diana put it? I bet Caroline would have produced the heir and a spare and wouldn't have made a fuss about his side pieces.

Jackie just wanted to secure herself and her two children financially while she had a real shot at it.

And ended up walking away with $26 million dollars tax free money in the end to boot. Including all of the other gifts and $ she had received over the 6 or so years spent with Onassis banked away.

She made out like a bandit.

Can we please keep the BRF out of this thread. PLEASE?

I'm sick of hearing about them now. This is a Kennedy thread.

Thank you.

[quote] Why didn't Jackie set Caroline up with Prince Charles?

Jackie was so unhappy with the results of marrying into the public spotlight with JFK that she would not have wanted that for her daughter. Her own mother Janet Auchincloss wanted high-profile marriages for her children, but Jackie did not.

Moreover, the daughter of an American president would not be an appropriate choice for the prince of Wales to marry, especially in those days. Curiously, Richard Nixon tried to set up a romance between his daughter Tricia and Prince Charles while he was in his early days in the White House: when Charles came for a White House visit, the president arranged long blocks of time when Tricia and Charles could be together and alone, hoping something would come between them. But of course nothing did--they had nothing in common. Charles was looking in those days to sow his wild oats, and Tricia would have been too proper and prim for him--and for a wife, he had been told by his mentor, Dickie Mountbatten, that he needed to marry a British woman of good aristocratic family (which is what he eventually settled on).

r83, you're not the sheriff. We're not going to ban relevant sidepaths just because you don;t like them.

You are no one's boss here.

Look at all those lines on Caroline's face. Is she a secret smoker like her mother was?

R85 fuck you. This is a Kennedy thread. We have enough talk on this site about the trashy Windsors. Fuck them and you.

CUNT!!!!!!!!!

Maybe she just is letting her favorite cousin Maria take her along on trips to the face sharpener.

Caroline is so wrinkly because she has spent her whole life doing outdoor sports: sailing and horseback riding. Lots of time in the sun is the surest way to get wrinkles, outside of smoking.

Caroline, I don't think is a vain person. She an academic person. She not an instahoe narcissist type.

So natural is the route she took. I think she's attractive.

r5 Rose looks more like Debra Winger than Jackie

[quote]Why didn't Jackie set Caroline up with Prince Charles? Was Caroline too old for Charles or perhaps didn't keep herself "tidy," as Diana put it? I bet Caroline would have produced the heir and a spare and wouldn't have made a fuss about his side pieces.

Irish and Catholic marrying the heir to the British throne? Are you really that stupid?

She would have had to convert I think. Or not? Up until recently I think even that wasn’t an option.

And any children that Caroline had with Charles would have been ultra ugly.

Converting wasn't an option back in those days. You have to be a born Protestant, and preferably Anglican. Only a small handful of other Protestant denominations were deemed acceptable, iirc.

A seven month old thread that originally got two replies is suddenly now hot? You all are bored.

If Junior hadn't died, I do wonder what his life would be like now. Other than being good looking, was he a slut like his father and grandfather? To my parents and grandparents, the Kennedys could do no wrong.

Being a president's daughter was nothing to the British royal family. They would not have considered that prestigious enough to warrant beuing a royal marriage prospect.

John and Carolyn Bessette would never have stayed married. He would've remarried and had kids with another woman.

John jr would've probably ended up as contributor on MSNBC, if not with his on show on the network. And would've probably ended up in Hollywood and media to some extent.

And he would've definitely had an Instagram account too, LOL.

I wouldn't have been surprised if he ended up a running mate of president Obama. Or at least getting a job in the administration. Maybe an ambassador to France or Ireland.

We'll never know.

Or maybe he would've became a senator for NY state at some point. He would've probably been one now.

Or he would've probably ended up all over the sleazy NYC newspapers for having a one night stand with someone like lindsay Lohan or Paris Hilton.

I could see all of that happening.

But again, we'll never know now.

R89 so that’s why all those New England WASPs have faces like a leather bag!!

John Jr. was better looking than her.

Are the rumors about her husband Ed being a real cunt true?

Timothy Shriver can get it. Mmm hmm.

Junior was known to deflower virgins

Yeah, Timmy's a cutie. His brother Anthony Shriver is also good-looking.

Didn't Caroline bother wearing sunscreen or a hat when doing outside pursuits? With all her money, she could at least have had a facial peel or lift.

R106 I know I basically have the same color skin she does and I never do any significant outdoor activity without slabbing on some sunscreen. How dumb can you be?

I'm the same age as Caroline. and during our formative years people did not worry about sun damage. Notwithstanding her lined face, Caroline is a very handsome woman. And I think she'd at least be the VP nominee this year had she gotten the nod from David Paterson when Hillary resigned her Senate seat in early 2011.

R108 basically true except people who were very fair (especially that kind of pink /fair skin) have always been told to be especially careful. Not just the longer term effects, but simply getting bad sunburns, which hurt and are terribly unattractive. The difference now is all skin types are told to be careful.

What does Ed Schlossberg DO all day? Any ideas?

Gore Vidal said that Ed Schlossberg was a cunt, which either means that Schlossberg is an absolutely massive cunt, or an utter delight. I’m not quite sure...

I actually like that Caroline has no vanity when it comes to getting older and is aging naturally. She's a very attractive woman imho and its refreshing to see an older face without wax and fillers. Real sixty year old faces have lines people!

R112 if you’re an Irish drunk, maybe.

I think it’s safe to say we all have older parents and relatives - my mom is in her 70s and doesn’t look like that. Neither do “real people” i see on the street everyday (or did pre quarantine):

Ed Schlossberg is supposedly a mega-asshole.

Kennedy Stans are pathetic. They see nothing clearly. Caroline Kennedy is of average intelligence, higher than her dead studly brother. She's not physicist. Jackie had cunning as did JFK. They were not geniuses, not even especially brilliant.

R115 Is jealous.

Jackie has lost all her magic for me. I was duped by the Camelot mythology. Jackie wasn’t shit...her sister Lee was even more worthless.

Let me tell you something, if I could meet a billionaire with one foot in the grave who wanted to marry me I would do it in a minute. Even if he was a troll like Onassis, I would just put up with him for a few years until nature took its course and then CHA-CHING! Not another worry for the rest of my life. Good for Jackie for grabbing that opportunity.

I still dont understand what transpired between Aristotle and Lee Radziwill. Were they in a relationship? Did he leave her for Jackie? Was Lee mad?

They dated while JFK was still alive. They visited Ari on vacation the summer before JFK was shot. He was dating Lee, but he was attracted to Jackie...a few years later they married or something like that. Jackie and Lee were both greedy cunts before Onassis. Catty, snobbish and far from great beauties, though they both obviously thought otherwise. But greedy above all else.

PS I read that Lee was bitter about Ari and Jackie....does anyone know anything?

I would have been bitter too. Jackie was financially secure the rest of her life while Lee reportedly was not.

They were both useless. Jackie kind of redeemed herself when she became a book editor...but Lee....excuse me, PRINCESS Lee....lol. 🙄🙄🙄

Lee was ready to leave Prince Radziwill for Onassis when Jackie joined them on his yacht, theChristina, in 1963 after the death of her baby.

Ari was more attracted to Jackie, and spent time alone with her on the yacht talking. Lee became jealous and complained to JFK, who became alarmed and pressured his wife to come home.

On the last day of the cruise Onassis lavished his guests with gifts. He gave Lee 6 cheap gold bracelets and gave Jackie a diamond and ruby necklace. Lee was furious and this was the end of her affair with Onassis.

Onassis stayed at the White House the weekend of JFK’s assassination and came to the private family wake for JFK.

Lee returned to Stas Radziwill. She reportedly had a fit when she found out Jackie and Onassis were marrying. Ari went back to Maria Callas, who he briefly stopped seeing after he married Jackie-shortly returning to her a few months after.

Lee suffered from financial problems for years and developed a drinking problem in the 70s. Jackie took her to AA, waiting outside the meeting to take her home. She tried to marry a San Francisco hotelier, Newton Cope, in 1979, but called off the wedding 5 minutes before the ceremony. Cope said it was because Jackie had her attorney aggressively call him to negotiate a prenuptial agreement. Andy Warhol claimed in his diary that she was too drunk to show up at the wedding.

Lee’s financial woes continued until she married Herbert Ross, and he was dismayed by her excessive spending.

One reason, it is said R108, she didn't get the nod was that she was having an affair with the Sulzberger then running the NY Times. (Arthur Jr.)

The timing was bad. Obama later (2013) appointed her as ambassador to Japan where she served successfully for four years.

Didn’t Lee have a nice apartment in Paris?

It was modest but a good neighborhood.

Lee Radziwill To Robert Stack when they were doing the 1968 televised version of "Laura".

[quote] Farley kisses well but you kiss better.

(Farley was Farley Granger.)

Yes, I remember it and I remember reading about her saying this to Stack. It was bad. But then I had already seen Gene Tierney's version and Lee's wasn't even a pale imitation.

I would love to see her version.

Did Lee have massive hands and feet like her big sister?

No, lLee was daintier and more petite than Jackie. Between the two of them, Lee was considered the more classical beauty, but Jackie arguably had the more successful life. Personally, I think Jackie was prettier than Lee, though Lee was very pretty in her own right.

I walked past Lee on Madison Avenue in the 90s. She was a tiny little bird with a big bouffant. She was with Herbert Ross.

I’m sorry, LEXINGTON ave. It’s only important because it’s a narrower avenue and so I was able to see her up close.

Yeah, that extreme thinness on older woman looks really freaky. In her later years, Lee had a big bobble head on a tiny little frame. Factor in the plastic surgery and I'm sure she was quite a sight in person. She didnt have that bobble head look when she was young.

Jackie wasn't that greedy or not for that long. It was Janet who was obsessed with great wealth. Jackie calmed down after her permanent wealth was secure. She did NOT take Ari to the cleaners. Sister Lee was far more obsessive about class and wealth because she wasn't as successful marrying it.

What is it about white women and having a "thin" frame? Why are they obsessed with being so "thin"?

With Jackie, wealth was about security for her and her children. Not really so much greed.

Her sister Lee, was more obsessed with wealth for reasons of being able to finance an extravagant lifestyle etc.

Jackie just wanted real security. Lee wanted to be a flashy socialite and that takes a lot of $$$.

All greed isn't equal.

R135, It's more of a RICH white woman thing - class is a major part if it. Studies have shown that in wealthy cultures/societies in which food is abundant, thinness becomes a beauty ideal. Whereas in poorer societies in which food is scarce, a more zaftig figure is seen as beautiful because it's associated with health and prosperity.

R136 that’s a really sharp assessment. I could never put my finger on the difference but that’s it.

My mom’s first cousin worked at Doubleday the same years Jackie did, and she would tell of how she would bring a ziplock of celery and carrots for her lunch.

So I guess she saved money on food.

Damn I wish I had a fraction of that kind of discipline.

R138 Thanks for that acknowledgment, I'm flattered.

Veering off topic I know but I started googling pictures of Lee and Herb. I just love Lee’s dress in this shot!

R138? I'm also the same age as Caroline, and you better believe that NOBODY was telling ANYONE to stay out of the sun. People believed a tan was healthy and made you look healthy as well. One of my high school friends used to lay out in the sun with nothing but baby oil on her skin. Many people did that back then. The only reason someone would use sunscreen was if they burned very easily. Then, as now, straight men rarely used sunscreen because it wasn't "manly." The reason people didn't want to get a sunburn was because it hurt like a sonofabitch, NOT because they were afraid they might get lines on their skin.

The same way with smoking, BTW. Back then, no one equated smoking with wrinkles. I was 30 and had been smoking for 15 years before anyone mentioned wrinkles as a side effect. That's what prompted me to quit.

You know, people would find millennials much easier to take if they'd stop giving lectures about things they know nothing about.

Baby oil and also pieces of cardboard covered with aluminum foil for extra reflection

R141 I know that’s what I was saying. I’m not that’s age but even before people became all skincare conscious very fair people were always told to stay out of the sun (or always put sunscreen on) because they would burn terribly. My grandmother (sane coloring as me) would always tell me how she have to sit in the shade at the beach under an umbrella while her sister and brother would lie out and play, blah blah — and she felt like the odd girl out (and was).

So that’s all I was saying. Fair girls were always told to stay out of the sun.

R143. I grew up in LA in the 70's and no one said anything about sun protection, fair or not. In fact, back then the highest SFP was a Hawaiian Tropic 6.

My family is fair. My sister read Seventeen which suggested making a parabola with tin foil and putting baby oil on and laying in the sun by the parabola so that the sun rays would be extra strong, producing a faster tan.

No one told us to stay out of the sun in the 70's. And Caroline grew up in the 60's.

Jackie. It's Lee. They're talking about us again. Go on Datalounge. The Caroline thread.

John probably would not have been in politics. He didn't have the killer instinct for it. He also didn't need it. He had enough fame for a lifetime.

John would've ended up in Hollywood and media. Especially as we got further and further into the new century.

R147 would be have his own primetime CNN show instead of Chris Cuomo? As the token dumb nepotism brother? (I don’t really think Chris is dumb actually but you get my drift)

Sarah Jessica Parker,serial beard, dated John John. The handsome gene is connected to the gay gene because gay men have to be handsome to procreate. Women will.put up with infrequent sex etc from very handsome man.

I do know that John-John failed to bar exam three times...is that unusual?

He failed it twice, R150.

R150 well yeah. Most pass it the first time, but it’s tough and from what I gather if you don’t really really cram and prepare for it you’ll flunk. And look, anybody no matter how intelligent can fuck it up once (and even if John John has failed only once I have a feeling the press would have been on him for that, too). But you go into two and three times (I think he did flunk 3 times) you gotta wonder.

That said, there are a ton of idiots from New York Law and other shit law schools who pass the first time. The vast majority do (and from lesser schools it’s even easier because they’re less theoretical — Yale has always had one of the lowest pass rates). It’s not really about intelligence at all just memorizing a huge amount of bullshit and being organized. I can actually see where a dyslexic would have a lot of trouble with that.

R152, he flunked the first two times and passed on the third. You’re not permitted to take it more than three times.

I recall after Jackie’s death, her will contained some snark like “I have left nothing for my sister because I have already done so during my lifetime.”

Lee always tried to live above her station in life. She should have married a richer Prince. Jackie was saying she already had propped up Lee so many times in her life and she wasn't going to continue that in the afterlife.

Lee wanted to be Elizabeth Taylor basically. She had grand taste.

Their mother taught them to be gold diggers.

R157 please see R136.

That sums it up beautifully.

No, it was greed. She was like that before she dropped her crotchfruit. Greed.

[quote] Jackie just wanted real security. Lee wanted to be a flashy socialite

I don;t agree. Jackie had two periods where she wanted to be a flashy socialite, too: for a few years in the mid to late sixties, when she came out of mourning and before RFK was killed, and then again when she moved back to Manhattan in the early to mid 70s. She would be seen on the town with celebrities: Nureyev, Capote, etc.

She was quieter in later life, when she settled down with Maurice Tempelsman.

Is it true that John, Jr. and his wife Caroline Bessette were on the brink of a divorce at the time of their deaths?

Also, does anyone know anything about Caroline Bessette having a drug problem during her marriage to John, Jr.?

Smart girls r104, but they should have asked him to leave the condom off. Could have gotten that money and those genes.

r118 especially if he lets you stay abroad most of the year and spend your time shopping to your heart's content. You just have to fly to his compound a few times a year for a little sex and to be arm candy. Hard to find a better deal.

R161, It's been said that JFK Jr. and Carolyn's marriage was very, very strained when they died. Supposedly, he wanted to have kids, but she didn't. One of her concerns was raising children in the fishbowl of celebrity since they were constantly hounded by paparazzi. Also, he was considering a New York senate run, but CBK was not interested in being a political wife nor did she have the temperament for it. John's magazine George was struggling at this time so this added some pressure on their marriage too. As for her drug use, who knows? She worked in the fashion industry so would've been around it and maybe been comfortable with it. I don't think Carole Radziwill mentions CBK's drug use in her memoir.

r164 then why did she marry him. She sounds like a terror. I mean, you marry John-John then become angry at media attention. He wouldn't have become anything interesting long-term unless he dumped her and found a more motivated wife before he lost his looks.

This John-John is gay rumors are odd. Come with the tea or don't come at all.

R164 - Thanks for you tidbits. I thought more would have come out after JFK Jr. and CBK's deaths.

You always hear that CBK hated all the paparazzi and media attention, and I've always thought "WTF did she expect? She married one of the most famous men in the US. He's been in the public eye since he was born."

r167

My sense is that Carolyn Bessette thought that John-John would be a prize in the sense he would give her tons of status among her friends, but she didn't really think about what it meant to be married to him. I also think she believed she could boss him around because he came across to so many people as a dumb hunk who was easily intimidated by strong women because he revered his mother so much. But he had such a strong sense of family destiny, and clearly wanted to become a senator and was just waiting for the right time (I think he wanted to be old enough to do it, but wanted to skip doing smaller work first like being a congressman because he was so into being a star--he thought his magazine GEORGE would give him the credentials to run). Whether he ever would have won a Senate race or not, he was clearly gearing up for it when he died, and he expected she would be a political wife, and she sounds like she really wanted to be her own person. I doubt the marriage would have lasted.

They come across as two shallow people.

r169 if he had moved back to MA he would selected to run against Scott Brown. The battle of the hotties.

^^^ JFK, Jr. would have won hands down and not just because Massachusetts is the most liberal of the liberal states with a particular reverence for the Kennedys.

Joe Kennedy III (Bobby's grandson) will be the next US Senator from Massachusetts come November.

I can believe JFK Jr. was kind of dumb, but I don't see any evidence that Caroline Kennedy is very intelligent. I don't give that much weight to which colleges she went to and what types of degrees she earned.

[quote] I don't give that much weight to which colleges she went to and what types of degrees she earned.

Most of the world does, so you're an anomaly.

R170, JFK Jr couldn't have moved back to MA because he never lived there. And R171, are you so sure Joe Kennedy III will be able to defeat Sen. Edward Markey in the Democratic primary?

I'm sure John-John would have run in NY for Senate. Kennedy or not, he would have come across as a carpetbagger to Mass. citizens since he had never actually lived there. He would have thought his family ties (since his uncle was a NY senator) and his celebrity would have still helped him in NY as well as his lifelong residency there, and he may have been right.

He would have no path to the Senate from NY. Unless he could have out maneuvered Kirsten Gillibrand's people. Maybe Kennedy could have used his clout to pressure Schumer to back John-John, but it's too messy and the Senate already had a Kennedy. One would have been seen as enough. There was no future for John in NY. He would have been better set heading back to MA. Even against Gillibrand we had enough dynasties with Bush Jr in the WH and Hillary obviously running for President. It would have been a disaster of a campaign.

He would have become an entertainment mogul, of sorts. Maybe a movie producer. I don’t think he would have been a politician. Btw, as someone upthread pointed out, Caroline finished in the top 10 percent at Columbia Law School. You can’t be a lightweight intellectually and achieve that. Both of her parents were very bright. People dismiss her mother, but Jackie was highly educated and well-read. She was fluent in several languages and read constantly. In fact, she was considered a bookworm, which wasn’t a plus among society women. It’s one of the reasons JFK was attracted to her.

JFK Jr certainly could have moved to Massachusetts. He'd have needed more than a U-Haul, I imagine, but what would stop him? How does not living there (except for the required period of residency) matter? It might have been a bit unseemly - when JFK, Jr. died in 2000 his uncle Ted was the senior senator from Massachusetts - even in Massachusetts, two Kennedys at the same time might be seen as overreach. If JFK, Jr. were alive when Teddy died in 2009 it's not unreasonable to think that Deval Patrick, then the governor of Massachusetts, would have appointed him instead of Paul Kirk? Patrick did what Ted asked him to do and if Junior knew (as did the rest of us - that Ted had cancer), he could just as easily had JFK, Jr. in place and legally a Massachusetts resident by the time he died. I'm saying it could have happened, but don't think JFK, Jr. would have wanted that - Massachusetts is a much smaller stage than is New York where JFK, Jr. would want to be elected from.

As for Joe's election, I expect it'll be a shoo-in. Markey has been behind in the polls since Kennedy announced and as of three weeks ago, didn't even have enough signatures on his nomination papers - something that's hard to get during the pandemic - to get on the ballot for the primary. Markey would have won the Democratic State convention - incumbents always do - but 1: winning there doesn't translate to winning in November, and 2: the convention's been cancelled. Markey has been the invisible man during his entire career. I met him at a party soon after he went to Congress in the late 70's. I literally never heard about him again until he ran for the Senate seat and again, heard nothing about him as a Senator until he was up for re-election.

Markey's not a bad person, just one who's 76 running against a Kennedy who is under 40, has a remarkably short list of legislative accomplishments for someone who's been in Washington for 44 years, and zero charisma. In a necessarily largely-digital campaign, who do you think has the advantage? Obviously, if you work or stan for Markey, you do. I'm not invested in Joe at all, but I think the voters in Massachusetts will vote for him in September.

Anyway, just to tie everyone in - here's a photo of Caroline, Jackie, and Janet Auchincloss from Caroline's 1980 Harvard graduation

Joe Kennedy will be the next great Senator Kennedy from Massachusetts!

R176, Kirsten Gillibrand was not running for senate back in 2000. She didn't get appointed until 2008 when Hillary Clinton became Secretary of State under Obama. You seem to have your years mixed up.

Carolyn Bessette’s colorist made her Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. Others she’d have been just another Darien housewife.

r180 that's what I mean. Hillary picked Gillibrand to be her successor. More important than Hillary was Governor Paterson who made the appointment prior to the special election. The Clintons were not going to push for a nepotism-Ken Doll over a female Congresswoman that flipped a red district. The optics would have been terrible and the Kennedy's don't run things in NY like they can in MA. John-John would have married wife number two and quickly moved to MA to pop out some kids and wait for his turn in the spotlight or he would have dumped the wife and married to someone famous splitting his time between LA and NYC.

Sarah Jessica is a serial beard. She dated John John. Daryl Hannah was another lesbian who dated John John.

Maybe he was bi, but there was real passion in JFK Jr. and Carolyn's relationship. Remember that crazy fight they had that was photographed. That was not staged.

What r177 said.

To want elective office means you have to want to glad-hand, be outgoing, accept every smile and desire for small-talk from everybody, in short, be a people person. Neither Caroline or John, Jr. had that in them. They had their mother's reserve.

And, it must be re-stated, even though others have already done so - Caroline saw that she could avoid all of that just by being appointed as US Senator. Well, she found out otherwise.

I never bought that JFK, Jr. wanted to be elected to any public office.

And, if she had lived, CBK would have long-ago left JFK, Jr., bored outta her fucking mind. Based upon the interviews I've watched of him, his gorgeous looks masked, and diverted from, a very dull personality. By now, CBK would traded up long ago and be on her to her 2nd or 3rd hedge-fund billionaire.

Wealthy men see their wives and girlfriends as a reflection of their power and status. Winning a former wife of world-famous, widely respected and handsome JFK, Jr. would have perfectly fit the bill.

JFK Jr would have been a great Senator and even greater President!

Interesting post Della R185. I also read he was pretty bad in bed - lazy and boring. But I guess that's kind of typical of very beautiful people.

If Hillary won with no experience in 2000 (except as First Lady), John John could have won. Neither Hillary or RFK had been residents of NY for very long when they ran, but NY seems to think all celebrities are New Yorkers at heart. I bet he could have beat Gillibrand.

*I meant to write "could have beaten Gillibrand"--sorry.

I like Gillibrand but, but let's face it. If Hillary had not given up her Senate seat to become Secretary of State, Gillibrand would not be a Senator.

I don't know if John was really interested in entering politics, but if he was, he would have totally succeeded imo. He was handsome, affable and had all of his parents' charm. He could have totally ridden the wave of Camelot nostalgia to elective office. I also think Maria Shriver would be very successful if she ran. She's a great communicator and is very engaging and charismatic. She has absolutely no desire to be a politician though.

R184 it could have absolutely been staged. The Justin Bieber Gomez relationship was staged and every fake kiss etc was caught on camera. It becomes reality show. She could have been straight . Though, unlikely.

How did the Clintons decide to move to NYC instead of back to Arkansas where they were before moving into the white house? I was a kid during this tim when Clinton decided to run for US Senate from NY, and I've always wondered how they chose NY.

And when did they buy their home in upstate NY? I've always heard they were broke and $16 million dollars in debt when they left the white house in 2001. Can someone please explain all of this to me, I was in the 6th grade when the Clintons left office and wasn't completely aware of what was going on since I was in school at the time. I've always been curious about that time during the Clintons lives transitioning to post white house life and Hillary entering the US Senate.

Can someone aware feel me in please? Thanks.

R193 really??? You’re going to ask why the Clinton’s chose NY over Arkansas? And btw both of them made a ton of money on their books and speaking engagements after the WH.

R193, you should watch the Hillary documentary on Hulu if you have the time and the interest. It goes into that period of her life. In short, she always wanted to live in New York and one of their political friends suggested she run for the vacant Senate seat so she went for it.

Yeah, but that house was bought before they left the white house wasn't it?

R196 I’m sure they were able to get a mortgage based on their future earnings.

R194 I think it had something to do with Arkansas being in, well, ARKANSAS.

R195 I've been wanting to see the Hillary documentary, but haven't gotten around to it yet. I've always been fascinated by the Clintons for some reason. Maybe it's because my grandfather (my father's father) whose from Arkansas had a relationship with bill back in the 80s when he was governor and my dad was a teenager. He said when he would come home from school, Bill would be at my grandparents house sitting in the living room talking to him about up coming campaigns he wanted my grandfather to be apart of. My grandfather had a lot of pull in the community and was able to get blacks to come out and support Clinton whenever he had an election he was running in.

So there's a bit of history between my family and the Clintons. I'm not from Arkansas by the way, I'm from Georgia and I've always been intrested in the Clintons based off of what my dad told me growing up about my grandfather and Bill Clinton's relationship and friendship.

Bill was the governor of Arkansas and he was a Democrat. It's not to wild to think had Hillary not run for the Senate that there might have been a chance they move back to Arkansas. Dosen't Bill have a condo there or something?

Sorry, don't mean to derail this thread into a discussion about the Clintons, but I think it's funny that Hillary agreed to live in Arkansas in the first place. She only did it to be with Bill after law school. She was from the suburbs of Chicago so I'm sure Arkansas was a huge southern adjustment.

Based off of what Hillary said on the Howard Stern show, I don't think she cared to much for Arkansas. I don't blame her. It's a redneck right wing shithole.

Plus, there really nothing there anyway. It's like green acres there. I tell my dad that and he gets defensive and I say then why are you still here in Georgia then? LOL.

R193, Bill was from Arkansas, not Hillary. Hillary was one of the very few women who saw potential in her boyfriend and the potential was realized.

I forgot where I read it, but Bill was not "a catch" for Hillary, even as Governor of Arkansas.

POTUSes make peanuts (relatively). The money comes afterwards. Plus, it seems like rich people just let you live in one of their extra houses for free.

Yeah R202, definitely very right wing. After the Clinton's got married, Hillary didn't change her name which really upset the locals. When Bill ran for re-election in 1980, Hilkary changed her name to Clinton to assuage the conservatives and help Bill win the election. It worked.

R204 No wonder Hillary wanted to live in NY. I wouldn't move back to a place like Arkansas either. Bill probably didn't want to move back. And it's his home state.

[quote] How did the Clintons decide to move to NYC instead of back to Arkansas where they were before moving into the white house?

"Hmmmm... should we live back in the land of incestuous rednecks when we leave the White House, or in the center of the universe? Gee, I just can't decide, Bill!"

Well the bushes went back to Texas when they were done in Washington. So did the Carter's after the white house. They moved right back home to Georgia. The Reagan's went back to California etc.

Well, whoop de do for them, r207.

2000 Hillary had no experience other than being First Lady, R188?! She was deputy president for 2 terms!

R193, another reason Hillary didn't run for the Senate in 2000 from Arkansas was that there were no Senate seats up in Arkansas in 2000.

Hillary would NEVER have run, let alone win, in Arkansas.

You got it a bit wrong, R204. Hillary didn't take on the Clinton name until after Bill LOST his 1980 re-election bid.

Thank you R212. I stand corrected.

I had no idea bill lost his reelection for governor of Arkansas.

Never knew that.

And, R214, the Clintons blamed Jimmy Carter for the loss, earning their ever-lasting enmity, for allowing Cuban refugees from the Mariel boatlift into Arkansas in 1980.

Didn't AK have 2 year gubernatorial terms? Very odd state.

Ted Kennedy should have gotten the nomination in 1980. He would have beaten Reagan. Carter was a weak President and deserved to lose.

No, R217, Teddy wouldn't have won in '80. He wasn't a successful candidate in the primaries until it was all over but the shouting, when it didn't matter anymore. He was too hobbled by Chappaquiddick in the Democratic primaries. It would've been devastating for him in the general election. He really didn't seem to have his heart in it when it mattered, as if he was just going through the motions, fulfilling a familial obligation.

R207 - I believe the Bushes were from Texas, the Carters were from Georgia and the Reagans were well-established in California. Hillary wasn't from Arkansas so she didn't feel the same pull to go back to Arkansas.

Besides, R218, when he quit the race, Joan was overheard saying, "Jesus, I'm glad this shit is over. Where can I get a drink?"

I hate the way Teddy behaved when he lost the Dem primary. What a sore loser. Instead of gracefully accepting defeat, he showed up to the Dem convention and refused to support Carter and unite the party. I'm sure that contributed to Carter's defeat.

And, R221, I've read that no Kennedy family member, Including Jackie, who cast her ballot for Anderson, voted for Carter in the general.

Caroline has that same patrician insouciance regarding her looks as did Barbara Bush...nothing to prove...

Did anyone see that grainy documentary of some low tier attendee at John and Carolyn's Cumberland Island wedding? He had some ideas of what attracted John to Caro.

I respect that R223. Looks are fleeting but substance is forever.

R224 is it on YouTube?

I think it was on HBO

It was on TLC

I'm surprised John's friends have been so vocal with the media, even sharing footage from his wedding. I thought they would be more respectful of his privacy. I can't imagine Caroline's friends doing the same if she was dead. Her inner circle is very protective of her and her privacy.

It's been 20 years and this was a happy moment, might as well share it since the Kennedy' are obsessed with this American Royalty bs. I cringed so hard when they said that on r228's clip. The people watching the video were excited like they were get a glimpse of the video like they stumbled upon the missing crown jewels of Ireland.

I wonder how much money Billy Noonan got paid to share that footage of his "best friend"?

If the family didn't want it released I'm sure he would have respected their wishes. Notice only JKF Jr and Ted are shown without covered faces. These short clips are a lot of nothing. If this was a sex tape or clip of the bride or groom doing blow then it would matter. This is just another granny wedding video.

R232, Billy Noonan most definitely doesn’t care about JFK jr.’s family.

Ted Kennedy would have been one of our greatest presidents, but the American people were too stupid realize it. Instead focusing on a nothing issue like Chappaqidick, just like what happened to Hillary when people chose to focus on her emails.

R235 !!!!! A “nothing issue”? I’m not a Kennedy hater, but he left a girl to drown.

With his severe drinking problem, I’m not so sure, R234. And of course R235 is right. Chappaquiddick was a huge deal.

Chappaquiddick really altered the future.

I don't think Joan Kennedy wanted to be first lady. She would've probably really cracked under the pressure of that position.

And she's had serious drinking issues, so I don't think that would've been a good idea for her.

R234 we needed him in the Senate, and I think that’s where he ultimately was meant to me and could do the most meaningful and lasting work. We need someone like that now, in fact.

I think Anderson was the best candidate, actually (I know my father voted for him). But he should have picked a party since we all know how the 3rd party thing always goes...

R237well it certainly altered Mary Jo Kopechne's.

R237well it certainly altered Mary Jo Kopechne's.

So true r238. When even the Nixons are judging you, you've gotta know you've had too much to drink.

JFK's assassination must have made living with Ted unbearable because Joan just stopped trying to be a Grace Kelly, and went straight into young socialite fashions of the late 60s.

[quote] Instead focusing on a nothing issue like Chappaqidick, just like what happened to Hillary when people chose to focus on her emails.

You have got to be fucking joking.

For Christ sake , Op seems like an idiot.

Poor Joan, she should never have married Ted. He sounds like a horrible husband.

All the Kennedy men sounded like they made horrible husbands. Just be glad you didn't marry one of them.

The Kennedy men were shit husbands, but they were also of their time. Many men of that generation were terrible husbands and fathers.

Really isn't all the much to be said about Caroline, is there?

I remember as a kid seeing pictures of her in my mother's movie magazines, a chubby teenager in a bikini next to skinny Jackie. That had to be traumatizing for her. No wonder she got stick-thin and stayed that way.

Jackie would constantly chastise Caroline about her weight.

What did Jackie think of Caroline’s choice of husband?

From all accounts, Ed Schlossberg is a giant asshole. He and Caroline have been living separate lives for years now.

Fun, or sad, depending on how you look at it, fact- Caroline Kennedy traveled to Graceland right after Elvis death and was invited in to see his body. She was interning for the NY Daily News.

Was caroline an elvis fan?

I asked this upthread, and I’ll ask again. What do we think Ed Schlossberg does all day? He gets up, has coffee/breakfast, looks at headlines. Showers and dresses. Then what? Does he still do art projects or whatever it is?

He's never really worked, has he?

Ed is old enough to be retired, but I don't know if he actually is. I believe he moved to Japan with Caroline when she was ambassador. As for now, he probably does a few random esoteric projects with his company if it still exists.

True, he’s of retirement age. Ok then, same question but 25 years ago?

He is cruelly a very accomplished person.

Omg stupid auto correct, “actually” @ r259.

R 169 Exactly. John Jr. was the prize and Carolyn loved the thrill of the chase, being the one to marry the world’s most eligible bachelor. After the wedding, boredom and a lackluster sex life set in. She didn’t need to try anymore and she didn’t have the thrill of the pursuit to interest her in sex anymore. Apparently John was confused (and hurt) as to why their sex life went down the drain after the wedding.

By all accounts, Ed is very talented.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Ed was the designer on the Ellis Island renovation project from a few years ago.

He was r263, he helped introduce digital interactive displays.

Oh OK, Ed’s firm is interesting. I didn’t know, it always just seemed what he did was vague. He was free to be creative, good for him.

Sweet photo. Halcyon days soon to end.

I always liked that photo of them R266. Caroline loved her daddy and looked just like him.

R266, that photo made me remember a JFK comment I read where he said he never remembered his mother hugging him. For all his weaknesses, there is plenty of evidence he at least made that right for Caroline and John.

R260, I like "cruelly" more.

r261 no one suggested a MMF setup or strap-on to liven up the bedroom? You know what, I'm sure some of the sauna trolls at his gym were more than happy to help.

I wonder if Jr. ever experimented with guys. He had to have had plenty of opportunities.

John Jr. was known to strut his stuff for all to see at his college dorm. He was very much an exhibitionist. Not gay or bi even, but he was proud of his looks and physique. Can’t blame him.

John used beards so it's safe to assume he had boyfriends behind the scenes.

He would have our hottest President ever!

He was just probably gay friendly.

Losing JFK Jr was one of the greatest tragedies of our time. It's on the level of losing Prinecess Diana.

“John John” was a dumbass with a nasty temper.

But he was purty....

Yeah R276 it's definitely one of those events where you remember where you were and what you were doing when you heard the news.

He seemed to fade away from public consciousness pretty quickly. It wasn't like Princess Diana.

R280 One of the main reasons for that is the JFK Jr never had children. If Diana did not have Wills and Henry, who are constantly in the news, she would have faded away.

R281 Princess Diana was much more famous and had a much more scandalous life. She was also a humanitarian widely respected worldwide. There’s a reason 1 billion people watched her funeral. JFK Jr was a playboy and famous because of his name. He was the 90s Kim Kardashian. He was famous for being famous. His death was also at the hands of his own arrogance whereas Princess Diana died in a tragic accident. Totally different scenarios.

What arrogance, R282, was that?

But JFK Jr. was one of the most famous people in America back then, he was constantly in the media, tons of coverage of him. Then after his death his memory just kind of faded away. Perhaps because he didn't really accomplish much or leave a legacy.

^^^ The arrogance of flying his airplane in conditions far above his skill set and taking 2 innocent people with him.

R283 thinking he could fly that plane well in horrible weather

Yes R284 he was famous for nothing. After he died there was nothing to talk about. It’d be like Kim Kardashian dying. Comparing him to Princess Diana is just silly. She had a worldwide legacy that spanned 20 years. JFK jr was famous for being hot and fighting his wife in Central Park.

You guys feel like he faded away? If anything, I feel like JFK Jr. Is very much remembered by folks of a certain generation.

Choosing not to wear a seat belt is also reckless, possibly arrogant, but maybe she simply forgot to buckle up.

He would've probably ended dating or impregnating Paris Hilton for sure. I could definitely see that happening.

Just one major slip up on night.

Diana’s fame was tied to the mystic of the British Royal Family, which tops everyone in the fame game. She was the virgin sacrifice, the mother of the future king, beautiful and blonde and always searching for and never quite finding true love. Diana was the ultimate victim. John was a handsome knucklehead who flew his plane into the ocean. A victim of only his own self confidence.

R291 Diana had a strange way of "searching for...true love" by harassing married men by calling them hundreds of times and hanging up, as well as sneaking in the household help for trysts.

Diana was ugly. Period.

Jackie Kennedy Onassis and Marilyn Monroe are still more famous.

Diana was the most beloved human being of all time!

And the cocaine-addicted, philandering Dodi was the one true love of her life! Their romance was one for the ages! Their mangled bodies are united in the afterlife for eternity - so romantic!

I love this thread 😁. Its so all over the place, lol.

"I love Jackie but her behavior during the Onassis marriage was abhorrent."

It was all about money. Her fans would say that Jackie, the poor single mother (gag), just wanted "security" for her two fatherless children and herself, and that's why she married Onassis. But the truth was that she wanted to be filthy, stinking RICH. Rich beyond measure. She was the personification of greed and avarice. Jackie Kennedy Onassis had mental problems and her behavior during her marriage to Onassis was an indicator of it. Her spending sprees were pathological. It would seem there was a deep void in her life and she tried to fill it by endlessly spending.

She was like that while married to JFK. He got the bills one month and was astounded. He asked where the money went and she was vague, saying something along the lines of it being used for the household and "clothes for the children." He told her that if he didn't have an income outside of his salary as President they'd be bankrupt.

Well of course they'd be bankrupt: the President's salary was $100,000 then. JFK donated all of it to charity.

R298 nailed it. Jackie was just a courtesan. A fancy French term for gold digger.

Jackie's greed was about security. Lee's greed was about living extravagantly.

All greed isn't equal. I've already said this earlier on this thread.

Every person that marries a wealthier spouse (upper middle class and above) is a silent gold digger. Sure, there can be love and affection, but the money is always in the back of their minds. Kids are bonding glue and a future meal ticket if the divorce occurs and your spousal support/child support dies up.

R302 I guess kinda like kris jenner who married well and was introduced to the elite world of Beverly Hills through her first husband robert kardashian and then bruce jenner. They both kept her in the world of money and celebrity.

Then her children grew up to be famous zillionaires. Cementing her place deep in the $$$.

r301 Jackie had enough money from the Kennedy's to live a comfortable life with her children. She was just as greedy as her sister and wanted to have an extravagant jetset lifestyle. If it was all about security then she would have been in Greece keeping her husband happy to secure a stronger position within the will. You can't be serious about security when you are flying all around the world, throw your kids into a boarding school (shouldn't they be by her side), and live a Maria Antoinette inspired lifestyle. Meanwhile her security blanket, I mean husband, I mean ATM, is off in Greece. Please...

I feel like you are giving her a frau pass because she needed security for her cHiLdReN. There were about 10,000 other Kennedy kids that were just fine following JFK & RFK's death. Jackie was churning out a narrative (like the Camelot bullshit) to excuse her behavior.

I see her praying to God that he won't be able to get it up on their wedding night and into the honeymoon.

R301 but how is such excessive shopping about security? You can’t really spin it that way.

She wanted EXTREME security. Being comfortable isn't enough for everyone. She wanted to insure the stability and security of her children and her self.

I understand her well. I'm the exact same way. Experiencing financial uncertainty will mess you up in the head about money. That's why you see so many celebrities with hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank. It's still not enough, poverty can really mess up how you see money and what financial security means to you. It's different for every person.

Enough is not enough for some people and that can go back to childhood trauma of experiencing adject poverty. Unlimited resources on an extreme level is a comfort for some people even if they understand they'll never be able to spend it all in their lifetime. Just knowing it's there gives you a peace of mind. Knowing you can't spend it all is even more of a comfort. That means your covered financially in indefinitely.

And that was Jackie Kennedys relationship with money. Having so much you could never spend it all.

Jackie O was a thief and a shit kicker and, uh, she wanted to be famous.

I don't think she cared about fame. She never did any late night talk shows or anything. That's why she still has her mystique.

I give her a pass as she went through the horrible experience of having her husband's brains splatter on her pretty pink suit.

Bobby and Jack Kennedy’s will restricted Jackie and Ethel’s access to money, with the bulk of the money going to the children. Both of them had money problems as a result.

Jackie was receiving around $200k annually (in 1960s dollars) from the Kennedy trust. She also continued to send all her clothing bills to the Kennedy family office-that was paid separate from the $200k -and Secret Service protection.

For a woman who lived in the White House and got to spend 1961-63 acquiring and restoring antiques for the White House, with a full staff of servants and assistants, and a status as a global fashion icon, a $200k allowance in 1964 wasn’t enough. At one point Jackie had to promise RFK to campaign for him as President to get the Kennedys to buy her a new car.

Ethel spent almost as freely as Jackie before RFK’s death and had a lot of financial problems into the 1980s. At one point the roof at Hickory Hill needed replacing and she couldn’t afford to replace it. None of the Kennedys would help her-except Jackie who bought her a new roof. Ethel was sued by caterers, mechanics, clothing stores, etc, for unpaid bills for years. She didn’t gain financial security until her parents company went public in the 80s and she was able to unload a bunch of stock. She was banned from shopping at Saks in Virginia because she kept trying to return clothes she wore for cash.

The Kennedys were notoriously cheap. Except for Jackie’s homes , their houses were shabby. Joe Kennedy once needed to paint their Palm Beach home. He refused to paint the sides and back, only the front because nobody saw the sides and back. He also didn’t install a heater in the pool at that house so the family would freeload off their neighbors to use their heated pools. They paid their servants minimum wage and worked them hard. That’s why so many of them have blabbed to writers.

Jackie wanted security for herself and her kids and she took advantage of Aristotle Onassis, milking him for everything he was worth. Can't both be true?

[quote]Jackie had enough money from the Kennedy's to live a comfortable life with her children.

Jackie didn't want to be under the Kennedy's financial thumb for the rest of her life. They never really accepted her, and the thought of the Kennedy family controlling her money forever was abhorrent to Jackie. Who could blame her? If I had been in that situation, I would've been looking for a way out, too.

Ethel's money problems were rooted in having 11 children to raise and the fact that Bobby's ill-fated presidential campaign put them in debt.

I don't think anyone on here has any issues with how she handled her business, I'd like to spend my days shopping and enjoying the arts. I think we are just calling out the PR spin about her focus on security, whatever that means. She wasn't going to go into section-8 housing or be thrown out of Jack's home. Hell, she was still living in a mansion. Onassis gave her additional freedom and money, but her actions show that she is just was a greedy woman. Her spending shows her emotional distress. Again, if she cared so much about her children, she wouldn't have thrown them into a board school so that she could run off to NYC or Europe to (I assume) fuck and spend her way into an inevitable divorce from Onassis. Lucky for Jackie, he died before the divorce could occur.

Oh please, Onassis just wanted her as a trophy to show off on his arm, he was back fucking Maria Callas in no time at all.

Like Onassis was some fucking prize. They both got what they wanted out of that marriage.

When Onassis was on his deathbed Jackie was traipsing around Europe, going to bullfights and getting her hair done. She didn't give a shit about HIM. She was in love with his money.

They both got what they wanted out of that "union." He wanted jackie as a trophy wife, especially her being a former American first lady. That was big for Aristotle. And Jackie has access to real wealth, Credit cards private jets homes around the world and the payoff was a massive payout from her dead husband's estate of $26 million dollars to close that era of her life out.

So they both got what they wanted out of that marriage. I'd say Jackie is the real winner though.

The story of how Jackie got that 26 million payout is repugnant. At Ari's funeral, she and Ted Kennedy tag teamed a grieving Christina Onassis in the limo going to the funeral and broached the subject. They couldn't even wait til after the funeral was over.. Cjristina gave Jackie the money just to make her go away..

Jackie seemed way to classy to behave that way during a funeral preseason. Asking about her settlement in the funeral car really? Or was it Ted who pulled the stunt?

Either way, if true it's tacky.

Maybe it was Ted, but whoever it was, it was extremely callous and insensitive.

Jackie and Christina got in the lead funeral car, and Ted jumped in, Shortly after the car started moving Ted turned to Christina and said, “and now , it’s time to take care of Jackie.” Christina hopped out of the car and got in the car behind them with Ari’s sisters.

Jackie was on a vacation when he was on his deathbed-supposedly Jackie’s doctor warned her that she needed to go to Paris because the world was watching.

Some reports say she got the $26 million AND the $250k annual payment Ari gave her in his will.

r320 classy women don't go shopping while their husbands are dying, they should at least pretend to care about their family. She dressed nicely and said little in public, after the JFK years I wouldn't really call Jackie classy.

Aristotle Onassis was a repulsive old fart. Why should she pretend she gave a fuck about him when he croaked? More power to Jackie!

Well then a "classy lady: shouldn't have married him r324. He wasn't repulsive enough to stop her from fucking him in order to become Mrs. Onassis.

The story about Jackie, Christina and Ted is somewhat suspect because whenever Christina came to New York after her father died, she always visited Jackie.

Some of you are forgetting that after Ari married Jackie, he went back to Callas and then more or less withdrew from the world after his son Alexander died in a plane crash. He wasn't a lot of fun to be around.

At the right camera angle Alexander Onassis wasn't bad looking. Funny how both families lost their golden boys to plane crashes. Some karma was at foot, I wonder if these people were making deals with the devil.

Ari blamed Jackie for Alexander's death. He thought Jackie was cused and called her whatever the Greek word is for cursed woman.

He wasn't wrong.

He wanted the ultimate trophy wife. She wanted his money. That's was their marriage. It was a pretty sick arrangement.

[quote]Well then a "classy lady: shouldn't have married him

When it comes to that kind of money, all bets are off.

Re: not running to Onassis' deathbed... I dunno... The whole world new their marriage was a business deal not a love match. If anything it shows Jackie was not a hypocrite.

Re: boarding school... I don't agree with sending children under 13, but boarding school option does not mean you are a absent or terrible parent. It can be a great thing. I went to one and have nothing but fond memories. Perhaps Jacks was trying to shelter the kids from all manner of media exposure and family dramas and provide them some stability.

" If anything it shows Jackie was not a hypocrite."

If anything it shows what a cunt she was. The man who had showered her with riches, who was incredibly indulgent of her and generous, was dying, and she couldn't be bothered to be with him. It just showed what a cold hearted bitch she was. At his funeral she was said to have a "serene smile" on her face. What a horror story she was.

[quote] The story about Jackie, Christina and Ted is somewhat suspect because whenever Christina came to New York after her father died, she always visited Jackie.

Yup, r326, as confirmed by Nancy Tuckerman, Jackie O's social secretary at the WH and then her personal secretary until Jackie's death. Tuckerman rarely publicly commented on Jackie, but she couldn't resist setting the record straight on Christina's reported "hate" of Jackie.

Tuckerman said that after Ari's death, Christina would call on Jackie whenever she was in NY and wanted to impress a new boyfriend.

I never bought that Christina and Jackie settled for 26 million. I think that's the amount they both agreed would be leaked to the media. It was probably more.

[quote] The story about Jackie, Christina and Ted is somewhat suspect because whenever Christina came to New York after her father died, she always visited Jackie.

Yup, r326, as confirmed by Nancy Tuckerman, Jackie O's social secretary at the WH and then her personal secretary until Jackie's death. Tuckerman rarely publicly commented on Jackie, but she couldn't resist setting the record straight on Christina's reported "hate" of Jackie.

Tuckerman said that after Ari's death, Christina would call on Jackie whenever she was in NY and wanted to impress a new boyfriend.

I never bought that Christina and Jackie settled for 26 million. I think that's the amount they both agreed would be leaked to the media. It was probably more.

Jackie wasn't particularly classy. Just well dressed and decently educated. Her positive reputation comes more from a dearth of educated and well spoken famous people in American society. Bigotry of low expectations as the saying goes. She is notable for her complete lack of interest in helping anyone less fortunate than her. Yes she "beautified " a few places but never did anything deeper than that. There's a famous photo of her staring like a demented bug eyed Gollum at some frippery in a display case. That summed Jackie up. And before anyone says that she was classier than Melania, pretty much all of our first ladies have been classier than Mrs Trump.

Her positive reputation also comes from the way she persevered after the assassination and raised two down to earth kids.

Why would they lie about her $26 million dollar settlement? Why leak a fake settlement figure and keep the real amount secret? I have a few ideas why, but why would they care to do such a thing? Jackie was an American former first lady and an elite member of American and international society so she would've been well protected anyway from anything crazy that would've come her way.

There's people in very high places that protect former presidents and first ladies once they leave the white house. Benefactors go above and beyond for them. We see that right now with former first couples like the Clintons Bushes and Obama's. These people are well looked after once they leave the Washington political scene.

So Jackie would've been fine regardless. Or was it more so to keep people out of her business or something? I've heard someone say something similar about her settlement amount being the public version and not the actual amount.

There's always been so much secrecy surrounding the elite.

High class hooker with the hands and feet of a linebacker. Not to mention that massive head and her FAS eyes.

"Her positive reputation also comes from the way she persevered after the assassination and raised two down to earth kids."

It's easy to "persevere" when you're rich. And who says her children were "down to earth?" They were both privileged, entitled rich kids. Caroline was said to be especially stuck up when she was younger.

R340, I don’t care how rich you are, having your husband’s brains splattered on your clothes isn’t easy to get over, no matter how rich you are. I don’t think money made it any easier.

She was our greatest First Lady!

Fuck you cunt!

No fuckers now was supposed to be my turn.

R287 - JFK, Jr.'s aunt, Kick Kennedy, died in a plane crash for the exact same reason - bad weather.

R345 - Should be R285 not R287.

"I don’t think money made it any easier."

Money always soothed Jackie's soul. It was her drug.

Did she have to get her shoes custom made?

R348 Oh, Ethel.

Jackie’s shoes...one’s the Queen Elizabeth and the other one is the Queen Mary 😈

Those shoes dont look that big. Didnt Jackie supposedly have big feet?

She had size 10 feet, which is big. The average is 7-8.

Jackie made the mistake of mentioning to her Kennedy sisters-in-law that she at one time had the ambition to be a ballet dancer. They guffawed at that, telling her that with those "clodhoppers" of hers she should have taken up soccer. I thought that was pretty funny.

Did Jackie "get on" with any of her sister-in-laws?

IIRC She and Ethel could stand to be in the same room.

Ethel is a slimy cunt herself. She reminds me of the queen bug in ALIENS...one facehugger after the other, dropping out of her stretched out snatch. She did also snobby, greedy and surprisingly racist for a Democrat. Didn’t she slap her maid or something like that? She really thought that birthing babies for the Fatherland made her a saint. Useless bitch and a lousy mother to boot.