Elder Gays Tell me about what happened to Florence Ballard of the Supremes

Flo she don't know that the boy she loves is a Romeo.

Florence was raped as a teenager, and I don't think she ever fully recovered emotionally from that trauma. She was immensely talented, and arguably had a better voice than Diana Ross. When she was pushed to the background to make way for Diana to be a star, it was a punch to the gut and she didn't have the maturity or support system to deal with it.

She became a big drinker, but she also had other health problems that ultimately contributed to her untimely death.

[quote]it was a punch to the gut

For which they needed a REALLY BIG hand.

Diana Ross at Florence Ballard Chapman's Funeral - she was uninvited and accused of causing a scene. Ballard's family bad-mouthed her for showing up and for having the nerve to stay.

Flo came at the wrong time in history. In the early 60s, black singers were relegated to singing gospel, soul or jazz.

Berry Gordy wanted to integrate them into pop music. His plan was to make them non-threatening to white people. He did that by making the Supremes elegant and beautiful with a quiet, smooth, stylized sound. There would be none of that bellowing that Aretha did. He brought Diana to the front because she had that light sound. (You also hear it later with Dionne Warwick, a very light pop sound).

Flo had a good voice but her belt sound was too much for the stylized sound Berry was going for. She also needed to work with a voice coach to smooth out some of the movement between her chest and head voice as OP's link demonstrates. When she was fired from The Supremes, nobody else was going to touch her, and it was difficult for black artists at that time to get signed in the first place. I think if she had come along a decade or two later and worked with a coach, she could have been a B level singer along the lines of Roberta Flack or Gladys Knight. Had she not spiraled downward, she probably could have had a few disco hits in the 1970s if she had luck in finding a producer to work with her. If she had lived, she probably could have made bank in the 1980s as a comeback story (ala Tina Turner).

And I often marvel at how long Mary was able to ride the Supreme gravy train. Obviously, Berry's intention all along was to take Diana solo and when he did, he ignored The Supreme completely, but it seems he would have let Mary go much sooner because really anyone could sing the backup for Diana, as was demonstrated on "Someday We'll Be Together" a song which neither Flo nor Mary sang on. And it seemed silly, once Diana's rise started, to have an original Supreme in the lineup because it couldn't be billed as the original Supremes with just one in the group.

I also agree that had Florence lived, and had gotten her self-esteem in order, she could've had a healthy career as a singer. She could've easily sung the songs Natalie Cole sang, and make them hit the high charts as Natalie did. Florence was also very pretty and personable, which are great perks to have when you're job is to enertain people.

Sadly, the entertainment business is very greedy, unfair, and cold-hearted. Florence needed therapeutic help and a savvy, yet benevolent manager. In an ideal entertainment world, she would've had that. In the actual entertainment world, she was shit out of luck.

Regarding Diana Ross - she did try to help Florence financially (and perhaps covertly did on occasion), but Florence's then-husband demanded that any money given to her had to first pass through him, since he was the man of the house. Diana pretty much said "fuck him" in response to that stipulation.

Florence was much beloved by everyone, but the raped changed everything. She went onto have success as a Supreme, but the rape devastated her young life and caused many other problems that affected her maintaining success and living her life. Rape can be devastating. Being a former Supreme with psychological problems stemming from a rape is no easy journey..

[quote]anyone could sing the backup for Diana, as was demonstrated on "Someday We'll Be Together" a song which neither Flo nor Mary sang on.

Neither did I, honey.

[quote]—Cindy Birdsong, who was actually IN the Supremes at the time

Cindy, we couldn't hold up recording just because you were kidnapped. When we schedule a recording session, there are no excuses for absence.

Cindy Birdsong is a self-serving greedy TURNCOAT.

Wait, didn't see this this story somewhere before....

That's a gay Jewish boy's version (David Geffen) of what happened, R11. Any similarities between Geffen's version and what really happened are purely coincidental.

Despite how Mary Wilson loves to speak of how dear her friendship with Florence was, there's no proof, or any stories, of her having helped her financially during her struggling final years. In fact, Florence said something like this about Mary and Diana: "Diana might be conceited and mean at times, but you always know where you stand with her. Mary is two-faced and can't be trusted."

Dreamgirls was a lie that Florence was so supremely talented, and it was a tragedy she was edged out by the prettier Diana. Except there's really no evidence that Florence's voice was all that, it was more powerful than Diana's, but that's about it.

I swear I read somewhere years ago that Diana quietly paid for Flo's kids college tuition. Anyone know if that's true?

[Quote]Except there's really no evidence that Florence's voice was all that, it was more powerful than Diana's, but that's about it.

Diana's voice sucked sweaty hairy balls when she first started as the lead singer, as evidenced here in this video. However, with training and practice, her voice developed into the distinctive sound she's known for. If Florence had received the same training and attention, she might've become a singer of great renown.

Mary took it upon herself to discuss Flo's rape in her book, pissing off Flo's family. They felt it was a private matter and that Mary should have the decency to at least ask them if she could talk about it. Diana was not happy about it either.

Yeah, but Mary got fucked by Tom Jones in his prime, so she sorta wins.

I wish I could remember where, but I read that Gordy paid off Florence's mortgage because of the financial difficulty she was experiencing.

Ross was an advisor in this situation.

I want to say it was Ross's 1993 book "Confessions of A Sparrow" (or whatever it was called).

Mary talks in her book about the Supremes going into a fancy NYC store (was it Saks?) and just buying whatever they saw. So they didn't spend their money wisely. However, they also complained, and I think brought a lawsuit, because they weren't fairly compensated on record sales.

And I wonder if Diana was compensated more when she moved to the front and the other two were pushed to the back? Obviously so, since the gorup's name was changed to Diana Ross & The Supremes.

They did indeed buy anything they could get their hands on, R20. But like the naive kids that they were, they failed to realize these purchases were being deducted from their earnings. For some reason, they all seemed to think Motown was footing the bill for their shopping sprees. And the Supremes weren't the only pop stars to act that way, not then and not now.

At 3:25 of this interview, Florence explains how she and the girls never saw all of the money they earned for Motown and Berry Gordy. There were no receipts, documented accountability of their earnings, no financial statements. They were given an allowance, and the rest of their money was supposed to be deposited in trusts for them. She claims she never saw any of that money that was supposedly set aside for her.

She also mentions that she completely trusted Berry Gordy, but he swindled her. All in all, being young, innocent, and unschooled in the unscrupulousness of the entertainment world proved to be her downfall.

[quote]She was immensely talented, and arguably had a better voice than Diana Ross.

I have listened to all the early Supremes recordings (where Ross doesn't always get lead) and I have never heard any evidence of this.

Flo seems to have a serviceable voice that would go unnoticed in most black churches.

But it makes for a better story if she was the "real" star.

I loved Flo, truly, truly, I did, but Flo couldn't find a note unless it was at the bottom of gin bottle.

This is one of the early Supremes (or Primettes?) songs where she led. Personally, she sounds untrained, just like how Diana Ross used to sound. (Also, the song is crap.) But her peers recognized her innate vocal talent. Even Diana admitted that Florence had the best voice out of all of them.

[quote]Even Diana admitted that Florence had the best voice out of all of them.

Diane could tell the prettiest lies while cashing her checks.

They were all vicious, backstabbing cunts.

Bingo, r23. Dreamgirls Florence was simply a fictional myth. But it made for a great musical and Jennifer rocked it with her excellent voice.

[quote] Flo came at the wrong time in history. In the early 60s, black singers were relegated to singing gospel, soul or jazz. Berry Gordy wanted to integrate them into pop music. His plan was to make them non-threatening to white people. He did that by making the Supremes elegant and beautiful with a quiet, smooth, stylized sound. There would be none of that bellowing that Aretha did. He brought Diana to the front because she had that light sound. (You also hear it later with Dionne Warwick, a very light pop sound). Flo had a good voice but her belt sound was too much for the stylized sound Berry was going for. She also needed to work with a voice coach to smooth out some of the movement between her chest and head voice as OP's link demonstrates. When she was fired from The Supremes, nobody else was going to touch her, and it was difficult for black artists at that time to get signed in the first place. I think if she had come along a decade or two later and worked with a coach, she could have been a B level singer along the lines of Roberta Flack or Gladys Knight. Had she not spiraled downward, she probably could have had a few disco hits in the 1970s if she had luck in finding a producer to work with her. If she had lived, she probably could have made bank in the 1980s as a comeback story (ala Tina Turner). And I often marvel at how long Mary was able to ride the Supreme gravy train. Obviously, Berry's intention all along was to take Diana solo and when he did, he ignored The Supreme completely, but it seems he would have let Mary go much sooner because really anyone could sing the backup for Diana, as was demonstrated on "Someday We'll Be Together" a song which neither Flo nor Mary sang on. And it seemed silly, once Diana's rise started, to have an original Supreme in the lineup because it couldn't be billed as the original Supremes with just one in the group.

The Supremes didn’t 1st hit record was in 1964. Dionne Warwick’s first hit was in 1962. Her first pop top 10 was in 1963. She’d already released 3 hit songs by the time the Supremes finally charted.

After leaving, suing and settling with Motown; Florence Ballard signed with ABC Records. Her Motown settlement prohibited her from capitalizing on her history with the Supremes. She struggled.

It is not clear the Gordy’s original intention was to make Ross a solo artist. Certainly his intimate personal relationship with her probably affected his decision making.

The Supremes continued to be successful after Ross’ departure so why wouldn’t Gordy let it keep going. “Stone Love” charted higher than Ross’ debut single. Their last pop hit was in 1976 and then the end came in 1977.

[quote] I swear I read somewhere years ago that Diana quietly paid for Flo's kids college tuition. Anyone know if that's true?

I've heard that as well.

I enjoyed when Ross guested on Letterman, when the DreamGirls film was out in release. He asked her if she'd seen it and she paused and gave that Diana Ross smile and said, "not yet, but I intend to....with my lawyers."

Diana Ross gets a bad name for herself from back in those days. They were teen friends from the projects and no matter who was the better singer - Diana Ross clearly had IT!! She's a star baby. In the film, Hudson is so wonderfully overpowering and Beyonce so bland and pretty, that it's easy to get it twisted. Diana was ambitious and the most special. Most superstars are.

When the OG Dreamgirls was on Broadway and Ross WAS a superstar, I've read that she was beyond upset and screamed privately....

THIS IS NOT SOME STORY - THIS IS MY FUCKING LIFE!!!

And so it was. I dig Diana Ross. The other two (&Cindy) could have been anyone. But it's a great story about the super duper Supremes. Someone needs to do the whole real story of Motown with all its talents and tawdriness. It deserves some epic 10 part series. They changed the world.

[quote] Someone needs to do the whole real story of Motown with all its talents and tawdriness. It deserves some epic 10 part series. They changed the world.

ITA with this.

Hollywood seems stuck on a never-ending cycle of redoing endless previous movies, endlessly re-booting shit. They have a goldmine in original stories like this one, here. Motown the organization and its artists changed the culture, and had real socio-political impact. Get a top screenwriter and director combo on it stat.

[quote]Diana Ross clearly had IT!!

You forgot two letters on your post. I fixed it for you.

[quote]Diana Ross clearly had SHIT!!

Her head was too big for her body. She had that mouth that was way too big when she smiled. She had that fluttery voice. The only reason she became a star was because Berry got her preggers and didn't want to pay child support.

Diana had a great pop music voice, perfect for the music of the times, and near-perfect pop phrasing. Plus camera-ready charisma for days. There is every reason she became a big star.

I'll give you the unbiased truth, OP.

What happened to Florence Ballard? Firstly, she flat-out refused to ADAPT the the changes in the group. Ross was born a star - she had IT. She had the look, the style, the glamour, and the name - Diana Ross. She was naturally a very, very strong competitor and she wanted to be a Superstar from the very beginning. There was no way that they other two could compete with her. So too the other acts at Motown. I agree that her voice sucked AT FIRST - do a YouTube search for "Those DJ Shows" to hear for yourself. However, the time came when Ross finally found her voice. There is actually a phenomena - a magic, if you will - which occurs for a singer who has "found her voice." It's true, and ANY BORN singer can find his voice at some point. I'm of the strong opinion that singing can not be taught - you either have the gift or you don't. One must be born with vocal ability, of course, but thereafter singing is all in the breathing. The attainment of that essential sweet spot where the rate of air passing the vocal chords produces a completely effortless sound - you reach for a note no matter how high or how low and you get it - you sustain it for however long you desire within reason. You've heard of "runner's high?" Well, you could think of this as being "singer's high." It really is as if you've become an instrument being played by some unseen force - it's magic, and you'd know if you'd ever experienced it first-hand. Ross had this gift - just as most other world renown singers have had it. Again, she found her voice.

Back to Florence. She was jealous. She became the squeaky wheel which everyone grew tired of greasing. She was foolish in that she refused to honor her commitment because things didn't turn out the way she planned. She was not a lead singer, and she did not possess the talent of every being taken for a SERIOUS singing talent. That's just the fact. She started drinking much too much, showing up on stage drunk. She resorted to physical violence against Diana Ross more than once. She gained a great deal of weight, thereby fucking up the optic - a considerable part of the Supreme's success was attributed to the visual appeal they possessed. She threatened the boss, Berry Gordy, often. WTF?!! You can't threaten your boss and still expect to keep your job! She was under contract to Motown and per the terms of that contract she was expected to deliver to goods on a consistent basis, but she started missing engagements and not showing up for recording sessions. While fueled by her drunken jealousy, she willingly attempted to sabotage the success of the group. As we see, she only succeeded in sabotaging HERSELF! She couldn't handle success. There are many, many people out here in this world dealing with painful pasts - you may be one of them. Still, they go on to do the things which they know they have to do. She self-destructed as a condition of her personal views regarding the change in dynamic re the group. She could have CHOSEN to remain healthy in mind and spirit with a great appreciation for the success she had achieved, but NO - she looked the other way by CHOICE and destroyed herself in the process. There's a lesson to be learned from her experience. Mary stayed in the group and she rode it down among the waves as it sank years later without Diana Ross. Mary was smart in that regard. She knew that there was never going to be anything during her lifetime to ever compare with the success and achievement she enjoyed as a Supreme. Be like Mary - DON'T be like Florence.

As we all know, things simply continued to get worse and worse for Florence Ballard as a condition of her bad choices and negative outlook. In the end, she brought about her own demise. There is actually a great deal more to say, but I think I've said enough. This has not been merely my opinion. This statement is the result of shrewd observation bolstered by truth and fact finding.

[quote] I'll give you the unbiased truth, OP. What happened to Florence Ballard? Firstly, she flat-out refused to ADAPT the the changes in the group. Ross was born a star - she had IT. She had the look, the style, the glamour, and the name - Diana Ross. She was naturally a very, very strong competitor and she wanted to be a Superstar from the very beginning. There was no way that they other two could compete with her. So too the other acts at Motown. I agree that her voice sucked AT FIRST - do a YouTube search for "Those DJ Shows" to hear for yourself. However, the time came when Ross finally found her voice. There is actually a phenomena - a magic, if you will - which occurs for a singer who has "found her voice." It's true, and ANY BORN singer can find his voice at some point. I'm of the strong opinion that singing can not be taught - you either have the gift or you don't. One must be born with vocal ability, of course, but thereafter singing is all in the breathing. The attainment of that essential sweet spot where the rate of air passing the vocal chords produces a completely effortless sound - you reach for a note no matter how high or how low and you get it - you sustain it for however long you desire within reason. You've heard of "runner's high?" Well, you could think of this as being "singer's high." It really is as if you've become an instrument being played by some unseen force - it's magic, and you'd know if you'd ever experienced it first-hand. Ross had this gift - just as most other world renown singers have had it. Again, she found her voice. Back to Florence. She was jealous. She became the squeaky wheel which everyone grew tired of greasing. She was foolish in that she refused to honor her commitment because things didn't turn out the way she planned. She was not a lead singer, and she did not possess the talent of every being taken for a SERIOUS singing talent. That's just the fact. She started drinking much too much, showing up on stage drunk. She resorted to physical violence against Diana Ross more than once. She gained a great deal of weight, thereby fucking up the optic - a considerable part of the Supreme's success was attributed to the visual appeal they possessed. She threatened the boss, Berry Gordy, often. WTF?!! You can't threaten your boss and still expect to keep your job! She was under contract to Motown and per the terms of that contract she was expected to deliver to goods on a consistent basis, but she started missing engagements and not showing up for recording sessions. While fueled by her drunken jealousy, she willingly attempted to sabotage the success of the group. As we see, she only succeeded in sabotaging HERSELF! She couldn't handle success. There are many, many people out here in this world dealing with painful pasts - you may be one of them. Still, they go on to do the things which they know they have to do. She self-destructed as a condition of her personal views regarding the change in dynamic re the group. She could have CHOSEN to remain healthy in mind and spirit with a great appreciation for the success she had achieved, but NO - she looked the other way by CHOICE and destroyed herself in the process. There's a lesson to be learned from her experience. Mary stayed in the group and she rode it down among the waves as it sank years later without Diana Ross. Mary was smart in that regard. She knew that there was never going to be anything during her lifetime to ever compare with the success and achievement she enjoyed as a Supreme. Be like Mary - DON'T be like Florence. As we all know, things simply continued to get worse and worse for Florence Ballard as a condition of her bad choices and negative outlook. In the end, she brought about her own demise. There is actually a great deal more to say, but I think I've said enough. This has not been merely my opinion. This statement is the result of shrewd observation bolstered by truth and fact finding.

What you gave is not unbiased, nor is it all factual. Most of this you could have kept!

Hey Velvet, why don't you climb up on your pony and run full speed into a brick wall? haha

Unbiased my post is, and utterly factual it stands.

No one can see her on RECORD!

[quote] Hey Velvet, why don't you climb up on your pony and run full speed into a brick wall? haha Unbiased my post is, and utterly factual it stands.

It’s not. It’s a big mess, just like your earlier post. Which I also pointed out.

So young.....

I love that clip R40! So much to observe and unpack. Thanks. Imagine asking a woman her weight? Still Canadians always conduct more sensitive and informed interviews. The famous Motown charm school training sure is on display. Florence is rougher and Diana talks the most, but all of them present themselves admirably. And honestly. I love the Supremes.