"Fosse/Verdon" Series Premiere, 4/9/19: Part Two

Link to Part One....

And here's the second episode thread. Let's just have one big general thread going forward, shall we?

Some of you in the last thread have forgotten about my golden globe bitches!

Episode 3 synopsis on IMDb is "As Gwen and Bob pursue separate projects, Gwen thinks back to the beginning of her career, and the circumstances that led her here. "

R4 They have no idea of how to use the time periods to tell the story

I guess Gwen's Children! Children! is a separate project for her.

Did she do tv shows in the late ‘70’s, early ‘80’s?

She kinda had slurred speech? Or am I Thinking of somebody completely different?

I love seeing all the dancers and hearing the music. I’ll keep watching.

Will Arquette in Escape from Danemara be eligible the same year Williams would be for this?

Yes Verdon began doing lots of TV show appearances after MASH in 1981 which also led to some more movie roles.

Don't know what has happened with this documentary.

Verdon was just on TV this past weekend in a rerun of GIMME A BREAK on Antenna TV.

Verdon also popped up on “Love American Style”!

Are we going to get into Verdon's lazy unprofessionalism? Cutting songs and changing choreography at some performances of Sweet Charity and Chicago to conserve her energy?

Could any current Broadway star get away with that?

Looks like they will go at it R8. I thought Arquette was nominated (and won) at the last Emmy Awards but she took the Golden Globe and SAG awards. Guess timing-wise led to the Emmys this year.

Could Arquette be a double nominee for “Escape...” and Hulu’s “The Act”?

[quote] Don't know what has happened with this documentary.

They probably haven't raised the money they need. They were trying to do a kickstarter last Spring and Playbill or BWW did an article with the trailer embedded. The poor thing got under 1000 views after the first week. And also, the whole article was about how the filmmakers were running a crowdfunding campaign, yet they never gave a link to donate, nor was there one on the video, so they botched it.

Fosse/Verdon has possibly given them a shot in the arm in terms of curiosity but still- no link to give money.

R14 I know Streisand would drastically cut verses from songs later in the run of Funny Girl.

Verdon was a sudden replacement on All My Children as a cold high society lady Judith Sawyer, mother to long forgotten ingenue Melanie (Carol McCluer). Carol Burnett decided she didn’t want to play an Ordinary People-type storyline on her favorite soap, she wanted to do something more comic. Which happened a few years later when she got to play Verla Grubbs.

The female child in Children Children did NOT have dark hair. She had blonde hair. Her name was Ariane Munker.

Yes, God forbid they screw up a detail about Ariane Munker!

Fuck off and die, r14. No one gave a shit about “Where Am I Going?” anyway.

And you forgot about “Redhead,” but everyone agreed those songs were third rate, so who cares?

R20 - I assume this detail is from Episode 3 where the play is covered.

play pic.

Damn, Michelle is just phenomenal in this.

Show Stopper

Michelle is stealing the Emmy from Arquette...

Gwen played Ryan’s grandma on KIDS INCORPORATED

Damn, Michelle is incredible. I've always liked her as an actress, and she's given some strong performances but this is definitely the role to bring her the awards.

Episode three was very good. I would have said excellent hadn’t it been for that silly “opening number” with the sexy secretaries popping out of the hallway doors with sixties hairdos in the seventies. And I won’t even get started in the rolling furniture and Poseidon Adventure set tilting that sucked him into oblivion.

Thank goodness for Michelle Williams, who hit it out of the ballpark throughout. My favorite line:

FOSSE: . How did I When was the last time you acted?

VERDON: When you walked in the door an hour ago. How did I do?

What acting was she doing an hour prior?

^^^Being nice and inviting to him when he showed up unannounced.

So did Gwen’s parents end up raising the baby as her brother?

Not just unannounced, r32, but at dinner time, carrying his daughter’s favorite Chinese takeout meal, rendering Gwen’s labored meal to the Tupperwares.

The big mistake in this episode was wasting any time having Sam Rockwell dance. Not sure what the point of that was other than to emphasise his inadequacies.

Not as her brother, r33, but they raised him while she was on the road. To this day, Jimmy probably views Nana and Grumpy Grampappy as his real parents.

He turned out ok, as a working actor and writer, albeit a non celebrity

Arquette is going lead with the prison thing, supporting with The Act.

Jimmy is one of the interviews in the trailer for that documentary on Gwen.

For those who are adding posts about Verdon's work on television, don't forget that she was the original Thomas Magnum's mother on Magnum, P.I.

I wonder what Selleck's memories are of working with her in Hawaii? Gwen appeared in five episodes.

OK so I guess, even as an absent mother, Verdon was able to maintain a presence in Jimmy’s life, so I guess it’s not all correct to say the grandparents completely took Mom’s place. According to Vanity Fair anyway.

So Children! Children!, the play where she got a lot of heat from its director, opened on March 7, 1972 and closed on March 7, 1972.

I feel like Bob's line to her about can you act is as big a mistake as her asking him if Liza could act - a mistake in terms of bad writing. Unless he was being deliberately cruel to Gwen, he knew how she felt that dancing was also acting a character. And he knew that she had studied acting with teachers.

Emily Watson could win the Limited Series Emmy for Chernobyl. As good as Williams is both Watson and Arquette win over her because she’s a cunt and they aren’t.

Tom Selleck said "“She was somebody you felt you knew after five minutes, but more than that, she was just terrific. I know my mom was proud when Gwen was playing my mom on the show. She was the perfect choice for the part. They were wonderful experiences. She was hilarious to sit around and talk about everything under the sun. I just didn’t ask her about stories about the good old days. She was always lovely to me. But I have a hunch Gwen Verdon was not someone you wanted mad at you. Here is what I think it was. She had something where you should never mistake kindness for weakness. It was always a great source of pride and still is that she was part of this ensemble.”

r30, I thought the sixties styling of the ladies in the opening 'Willkommen' number was an odd choice too, unless they were referencing the mid-sixties when Cabaret made its Broadway debut, but then again, why?!

I wonder if she was considered for The Golden Girls. At the very least they should have had her as a guest star.

I thought Sam dancing was kinda cute. The only moment I found him likeable so far. I think they did that to remind us Fosse was a dancer. Because watching this, I completely forgot.

No r46. Elaine Stritch was. Until she started adlibbing with f-words during her audition. Not as much because she was cussing but because she was altering the script and the writers were sitting right there.

Except, r47, he really wasn’t dancing as much as being carted around by spinning/kicking pro dancers, sort of like chorus boys used to do when manhandling klutzy stars in those vehicle Vegas shows of yore. Think Barbara Mandrell, Barbara Eden, Susan Anton, or even ... Madeline Ashton!

Rockwell is less impressive every episode and Williams is blowing him off the screen.

"I'd like to talk...about Madeline Ashton."

The dancing secretaries looked like they stepped straight out of 'How To Succeed'

Oh, OK. Since Fosse was an uncredited choreographer for the original How To Succeed ...

R53 Bam, yes that........still, some context may have helped, was so random

Fosse isn't likable.

Verdon’s co-star in Children! Children! was daytime television fave Elizabeth Hubbard. Was she in the scene where the cast was getting notes?

Yes, she was sitting next to Verdon, to her right.

I understand Jack Cole was portrayed in the episode. How queeny was he?

----

He was portrayed bitchy queeny, r59.

Hardly. He had one fucking line, and it certainly wasn't "Mary, get her!"

Gwen Verdon NEVER seemed young. She looked over the hill even when she was YOUNG.

What was it?

I think it was "Can a nigga get a table dance?"

You’re disgusting, r65.

Tell it to Chris Rock, R66.

[quote]Hardly. He had one fucking line, and it certainly wasn't "Mary, get her!"

No, but when she said she’d like to interview him, he said “Only ONE question!” with pursed lips and a bitchy attitude while wrapping his drama scarf around his neck.

Hmm, I'll have to go back and watch it (but I probably won't so I'll take your word for it). I didn't take it as bitchy/queeny so much as rude and dismissive.

I'm guessing he'll be back since we barely got into the story of those two. But then again, they hired Laura Osnes to play Shirley Maclaine as an extra, so who knows?

You’re not Chris Rock, r65. You just did it to be provocative.

[quote]he said “Only ONE question!” with pursed lips and a bitchy attitude while wrapping his drama scarf around his neck.

I don’t remember it that way at all.

R63, you are *so* spot on! It’s really bizarre; even as a teen Verdon looked like a middle aged woman...

A random picture I found while googling of Bob Fosse *intimately* dancing with Jessica Lange at Studio 54...

Anyone know the story there? Was he still with Gwen at the time? With this a steamy affair with a (then) hot young thing? (Was Lange “the other woman”?)

^This was in 1977

Lange sure did get around.

bump

When Fosse chastised Verdon with "you never raised a son," was it because he knew about her son and wanted to be mean, or didn't he know and was talking about the play only?

He had to have known. Otherwise she wouldn’t have fuck-youed him, right?

[quote]Otherwise she wouldn’t have fuck-youed him, right?

Could have. If she had pent-up anger she just had to let out at someone.

But did she really raise a son? Did she?

There's a Facebook group titled Forgotten Musicals which is often very interesting. Someone created a post for "Fosse Verdon" and one contributor, Bruce Kimmel, has been really pointed and then unpleasant to others about the show. Seriously, his posts made me want to add the comment, "Someone's got her claws out today!"

I just looked for the post and comments and it seems to be gone - I wonder if it got deleted.

I'd never heard of Bruce Kimmel before - he seemed like and unpleasant person.

Bruce Kimmel is legendary for being a super-cunty asshole when he makes online comments. He’s produced some good showtune CDs, though.

Anybody know why the Paley exhibit ended early (yesterday)? It was supposed to end Sunday and I had planned to go today.

She loved her son.

That is just one picture though, R86. Shirley MacLaine famously took super cute, “loving” pics with her daughter (Sochi? Can’t remember the exact spelling...) and then dumped the toddler daughter with her husband in Japan and only saw her about once a year thereafter...

There's this little thing Williams does with the character where she primps and "turns on the sparkle" every time she's about to meet someone, usually Fosse or potential producers. Kind of breaks my heart.

R87, I think if her son had legitimate gripes he could have written a book like Sachi. He didn't make anything but positive comments about her as far as I know.

Did she leave him with her parents? Cause he's not living with her in NYC.

I have never warmed up to Michelle Williams, there is something snooty about her I don't like. Therefore I think I would like this a lot more of she wasn't in it.

R90, the kid was born in 1943. By the time she’s doing her Children! Children! Rehearsals he’s in his late 20’s!

If you are referring to when she opened in Can Can, he was a tween, and probably in school. She was in things like out of town tryouts and then tours.

I have seen Michelle at my gym a few times but not for a while. She doesn't come across as snooty but there is a reserve there, obviously because she is famous. She has smiled at me but I get the feeling if I got too close she would call for security.

She’s been going through a separation/divorce. May explain her dry demeanor in the recent press junkets.

I forgot the one time I started to use a machine I was unaware she was using. She held up a finger to say one more, or at least that's how I read it. So I waited for her to do one more set.

I can't stand Michelle or her annoying friend Busy

She works out in a public gym with regular people? Can you imagine?

I gather the fifth episode is primarily set at a beach house and is quite spectacular.

The Glory episode is described as "Bob's career takes some huge leaps, while Gwen struggles to overcome personal and professional setbacks. " Guess a Fosse leap is the Oscar.

and the play she is rehearsing only ran one night

after 13 previews.

[quote]She works out in a public gym with regular people? Can you imagine?

So does John Travolta, but that’s because he wants company in the steam room.

[quote]Guess a Fosse leap is the Oscar.

And getting to direct his first non-musical, for which he gets a nomination as well, cementing his status as a Hollywood Director, and not just choreographer:

as Gwen gets to do TV: Love, American Style and Deadly Visitor.

I know it was a different time but I found it repulsive that Gwen's parents forced her to marry the man who sexually abused her. That's grotesque.

Back then it would have been considered making the man take responsibility for his actions.

Norbert Leo Butz sounds so much like Jason Alexander in this.

Here's Paddy.

Gwen Verdon's rapist, now starring in TOOTSIE!

Sad that Fosse who was an ass and treated her like shit went on to better things while she dropped down the working ladder.

R109

Who?

I think Busy Phillips and Michelle Williams are *more than friends.* Much more.

Why don't you go up to Michelle and scream, " HOW MANY MOLES DOES BUSY REALLY HAVE?" And if she answers right away, then we know.

Busy Phillips is a cunt.

Busy is a CO$

In real life the director of Children! Children! (Joseph Hardy) was a big ol’ queen. Jeremy Shamos definitely butched him up, or was told to. Shamos should fire his agent for getting group billed toward the end and not front billed like Santino Fontana.

Yes, Joe Hardy was a very hot director in the 1960s and early 70s and directed lots of those schlocky mysteries like Child's Play for which he won the Tony. He's long retired but still with us.

I swear those chorus girls were costumed for a How to Succeed number (A Secretary Is Not a Toy or Coffee Break) that they must have cut and switched at the last minute to Mein Herr.....it made absolutely no sense but I don't blame the costume designer as the costumes are really spot-on perfect in every period they've covered.

Michelle Williams was smart to get William Ivey Long fired in pre-production.

R118, the whole point was the juxtaposition of How to Succeed and Cabaret. I doubt that they "cut and switched." Doing a number from How to Succeed with dancers costumed as...what?... baseball players? Kit Kat Girls? would have been a lot weaker and would not have made the point of how Fosse's career moved from bright (if cynical) works to darker material.

It was more Mad Men than How to Succeed...

Bob and Gwen. Sad, sad, sad.

Well, r120, where do you think Mad Men got much of its visual inspiration?

r119, I don't get what you mean by the juxtaposition? Was the song somehow ironically commenting on the secretaries' look? Or vice versa? The girls were dressed and coiffed in an earlier decade than that of the making of the film of Cabaret....I found it confusing and pointless.

Hated the rendition of “There Will Be Changes Made” over the end titles. It was like something out of a second rate cabaret act.

R120 You haven't seen 'How To Succeed', have you?

R122 I presume the show will not cover 'HTS' so that was their nod to it. Made little sense

I'm finding the Gwen parts so much more interesting than the Bob parts.

R124, I did see How To Succeed (no quotes needed when mentioning shows, dear) but thanks for playing.

Yes, R122. The song is associated with Cabaret, which takes place in a sleezy club. It is not associated with perky office working women. Fosse choreographed both, about a decade apart. So it was a comment on his work and the changes he went through stylistically.

If you needed all that explained, this may not be a program you want to watch.

I couldn't get into it after the first episode but the last episode was stellar so I'm on board. Someone should do a documentary on the period showcasing the amazing dancers that worked Broadway and film then.

Has the time passed for them to cover Mexican Breakfast or maybe not because of the time-lumping narrative.

They seem to be jumping all over the place time-wise.

I hope when/IF Mexican Breakfast is shown, Beyoncé the thief gets major shade thrown at her.

Que es Mexican Breakfast? 😊☺️ I Google and get a hundred recipes for chilaquiles 🤪

Because r132 that bitch Beyoncé and her team have removed it so that the Beyoncé cunt-licking will continue.

See also: Things that have been scrubbed from the Internet.

Actually I did google again ad added “the dance” to my initial search and got Gwennie herself on Ed Sullivan.

That was awesome!! She’s amazing! That dance was way, way ahead of its time.

Of course I’m a dance noob ☺️But I thought it was fabulous .

Meh, R134.

Playbill has some images from the next episode "Glory" which is said to include Fosse doing Pippin, Norbert Leo Butz as Paddy Chayefsky, and Margaret Qualley as Ann Reinking.

It's right here.

Mexican Breakfast is music by Johnny Mandel that was used in the film Harper.

What would Kanye say?

I would like to see Bey try to dance to this arrangement.

Ugh, could we not have that overrated skank in this thread?

It’s mind-boggling to me that this woman is some sort of paragon of talent and whatever. Fuck her. And her fans.

I’ll boycott Lion King because of her, too.

bump

Bad episode tonight. They totally fucked with the timeline. Pippin wasn’t still in rehearsals when Fosse was nominated for an Oscar for Cabaret. Pippin opened in 1972, Fosse got his nomination in 1973. And Fosse won his Tonys for Pippin AFTER his Oscar win for Cabaret, not before.

And we don’t give a fuck about Fosse-mostly because Rockwell doesn’t appear to have a clue how to play him.

Who else could they have gotten who could have really pulled it off? A younger, shorter Bill Hurt maybe.

Hoorah. Wiki finally updated their page with a synopsis of Me and My Baby. "As Bob goes through the editing process of Cabaret, Gwen auditions for a straight play called Children, Children that makes her reflect on painful memories of her first husband who raped her and abandoning her infant son Jimmy with her parents to continue her dancing career."

R144 - how was Ann Reinking represented?

Norbert Leo Butz Loved Watching Fosse/Verdon’s Broadway Dancers Impress Movie Stars

Williams is masterful at wordlessly showing shifting emotions on her face.

As Neil Simon's wife was telling Gwen to be present in Nicole's life we saw so many emotions--first thinking she was being asked to watch over her friends child to brief confusion to the realization she was speaking about Nicole to a brief WTF to the realization that her friend was speaking truth to shame

Just brilliant

The acting in this show is phenomenal--plus I love the script and direction.,

It's a fun hour

So were they divorced at this point or was Fosse a complete pig?

Perhaps just Beverly Boyers-level pig, r151.

I saw the movie All That Jazz years ago, and have a question. In last nights episode, it showed Fosse as depressed and suicidal. I don't recall this being a major theme in the film ATJ - I remember him being a workaholic womanizer who popped pills, but not anything about suicide; even after he had his heart attack(s), he seemed to spring right back to work. I haven't read any bios on Fosse so I may have missed this aspect of his life. Is this common knowledge (the depression) or is the TV show taking poetic license with the character?

My question is about the Aladdin commercials that run during this show.

Who's that hot dancer with the incredibly hairy chest??

Michelle should get the Emmy for the scene when she reapplies her makeup to go to the afterparty for the failed play that's to close the next day, if for nothing else.

[quote]So were they divorced at this point or was Fosse a complete pig?

They never got divorced; just separated.

Margaret Qualley is such a shit actress, but who else could have played Ann?

Bebe Newirth could have played Mrs. Simon.

Very charming.

This better have been the last episode of Bob being a pig; I can't take much more of that shit. Center the show towards Gwen already, ffs!

That black dancer's ass is unreal.

R144, the 26th annual Tonys was on 25 March 1973, where Fosse won for Pippin. He won the Oscar two days later for Cabaret.

I have never thought this much about Gwen Verdon in my life. I love that this show is putting her back in the public eye as the genius she was.

As for Fosse? Ugh, he becomes more odious with each episode. Rockwell is kind of lifeless in the part. Where is the joy in creating his art? It is all one scene after another with him being depressed and difficult. They are not capturing anything but the same dark note. Michelle Williams and Gwen Verdon are the only bright spots. She gives you the feels. I wish we could see more Verdon performances though. Why are they holding back on that aspect of her life?

The bitch played Joan Simon like she was one of Don Draper’s discarded secretaries on Mad Men. She was fucking awful.

[quote]Bebe Newirth could have played Mrs. Simon.

Joan Simon was 41 when she died. As we saw from the Tony announcements, Bebe is 61 and looks 71.

Wkii quickly updated for "Glory:: As Gwen's play flops and she struggles with her personal life, Bob's career takes off with him winning an Oscar for Cabaret, three Emmys for Liza with a Z, and two Tonys for Pippin, however the pressure of success and how empty it feels eventually leads him to suffer a mental breakdown.

Aya Cash on Joan's hair bow: "Anytime there was a question, you could ask Nicole, and she was super open to sharing her knowledge. One of the things she says is Joan never didn't have the bow in her hair. So that was such a good little note that we maybe never would have known. You know, there's only a few pictures of her online and she has the bow in her hair, but you don't think like, oh, that was every day. But she's somebody who had a uniform in that way, and I appreciated getting to know. Even that little piece said a lot about her.

But I can't see a bow here.

r163 Unpopular opinion but I think Aya Cash is awful in just about everything I've ever seen her do, including "You're the Worst", which propelled her to fame.

[quote] I wish we could see more Verdon performances though. Why are they holding back on that aspect of her life?

Maybe because Michelle can’t dance them?

It would be silly to have a less than stellar dancer do Gwen’s signature performances, and probably sillier using a double in today’s freeze frame friendly environment. The Flashdance days of using stunt dancers are over.

I really enjoy this miniseries, but I'm annoyed by the title Fosse/Verdon. It sounds contrived and comes across as overtly politically correct. Just let the man have his moment already.

Rockwell is just so bland. And so very unlikeable. This series does not in any way show why he was talented. He just seems tortured, supremely unhappy, and kind of a prick to everybody around him.

Bob seems affable in this clip. This likability and seeming desire to please the audience is what is lacking in the way Fosse is portrayed in this series. He just always seems pissed to be in any room he is in.

----

Calling 911 didn't exist in the 70s.

And did he really carry all those awards with him wherever he went?

Do all red headed celebrities look the same or similar in black and white? Because in OP's photo, Gwen favors Lucille Ball, Shirley MacLaine, and Reba McEntire, all at once. But, in color I don't think any of them really favors each other, other than Lucy and Reba.

Norbert Leo Butz is in this. So different than his stupid Kevin character in Bloodline.

[quote] And did he really carry all those awards with him wherever he went?

What are you talking about? He was bringing them back to the hotel room where he was living.

R170 I'd argue that Fosse has already had many moments--including his own self-lacerating anti-hagiography, All That Jazz. Verdon is the lesser-known personality (except to a diminishing number of eldergays such as myself) and I would have been happy to have even more of the series focus on her.

I wish it was mostly about her, she seems like an interesting enough person on her own.

FX is rerunning first four episodes starting tonight at 10 pm.

r173, what an odd remembrance that is. You'd think if she were talking about Fosse it would be more positive, more scintillating, but instead she recalls it being, well, a sort of tug of war and it doesn't sound particularly pleasant.

Yes, I agree with that assessment.

I’m guessing the bit where the old, fat strippers molest young Bobby will be in the penultimate episode.

So there seems to be two different issues - first, the show is written with a very narrow viewpoint of Fosse and two, Sam Rockwell isn’t performing at the top of his game as Williams is.

He really isn’t. It’s a lazy performance. She just fills out every moment with something interesting and he’s...just there. That wig is truly godawful, though. That hurts his performance.

In 1973, the Tony Awards were presented on 3/25, Oscars on 3/27, and Emmy's on 5/20. He won 6 major awards within 2 months.

OK, so little Blake Baumgartner - who plays 10-year-old Nicole Fosse - did a pretty amazing job delivering that Pippin/Supremes song.

I personally think they are trying to purposely give Fosse a colder edge in light of #metoo.

A show praising Fosse too much would be criticized.

I'd be curious to see how this show would have turned out even five years ago.

I would have preferred it be about Verdon since Williams is a million times superior to Rockwell and Fosse is lifeless in this. But of course, they need Fosse's name to sell this. Which is kind of sad because it reinforces the imbalance between the two.

[quote] OK, so little Blake Baumgartner - who plays 10-year-old Nicole Fosse - did a pretty amazing job delivering that Pippin/Supremes song.

Nope. Go away, Nicole.

Even though he couldn't dance, Roy Scheider played Fosse/Joe Gideon brilliantly--and, of course, got direction from the man himself. In some ways, Rockwell has the harder job just because Fosse's already been played by a great actor in what was arguably his career best.

I speak Bob.

.../

Gwen Fosse.

What's My Line?

Charming.

The wig on Joan Simon is the worst. Or are we supposed to know it's a wig that Joan wore after chemo? I'm very distracted by this detail and the stupid bows don't help.

Is "Ron" based on Jerry Lanning? Is there a reason they can't call him "Jerry?"

R197, Aya Cash had on that stupid wig in the first episode, which was set at least three years before Joan became ill. The real Joan Simon was much more attractive than the cartoonish Cash.

Hair bows in the 1960s on those bouffant hairdos did not look like the silly limp ribbons on Joan Simon's's awful wig. They were pert and sassy!

I can just imagine Nicole Fosse showing up on the set and saying that Joan always wore hair ribbons and Aya and everyone swooning over what a fantastic character detail it was (with absolutely no pay off) and the poor wardrobe people trying to accommodate this nonsense at the last minute.

Also, if we're going to be subjected to so much Joan Simon wouldn't it have been more interesting to see a little more of the far more famous Neil and his point of view?

Joan Simon is such a dull character, and Aya Cash such a terrible actress, I actually bought a pennant that says "Go Cancer!"

Do you all know this Aya Cash from somewhere else? I've never heard of her.

She’s been in some series called “You’re the Worst” which was a critics darling but only 17 people actually watched.

Aya Cash has been stinking up this show since the beginning. Michelle Williams must be embarrassed to be in the same scene with her.

Fosse announced himself on Broadway with Steam Heat in Pajama Game like a rocket going off.

BUT and this is a very big BUT go to YouTube and watch the clips from the film of TPG and the modest vaudeville old timers softshoe I Would Trust Her is so far superior to the let's knock em dead by exhausting the audience Steam Heat trio it isn't funny. Pure Broadway joy that makes one understand why musicals were at one time so wonderful.

It would kill ya t'link a clip?!

There used to be a great delight audiences would take in watching old codgers like Eddie Foy Jr. and Reta Shaw letting loose.

No more.

Those were the days!

Well, Eddie Foy Jr. and Reta Shaw [italic]are[/italic] dead, r207.

Erm R203, I watched all 5 seasons of You're The Worst on FXX. It is brilliant with a miraculous final season that just finished in March. (Another really good show was Hulu's Casual, which had its final season last summer.) Both of these final seasons were better than any of that GoT shit airing now.

Erm R210, I’m so glad that you and the other 16 who actually watched You’re the Worst enjoyed it.

R211 Totally agree with R210 both were great shows. The lead in 'Casual' was hot as fuck as well

How did Aya Cash get roles? She's clearly too ugly and annoying to fuck for parts.

Tonight Jessica Lange meets Bob Fosse! She plays herself almost as convincingly as she did Joan Crawford.

Bob is in the nervous hospital tonite.

This series is pathetic.

Bob is less repulsive tonight.

Neil Simon post grief.

Chayefsky and Reinking scene was good

Gwen is throwing shade as the kids say.

Gwen is a mess.

Who do you side with - Gwen or Bob? Gwen is coming off as a passive-aggressive whiner who's only thinking of herself.

It's remarkable that the producers and writers thought this boreathon would be of interest to anyone.

I side with long suffering Gwen who has every reason to be passive aggressive.

I agree that the Chayevsky—Reinking scene was really good. Qualley is quite lovely.

Reinking was obviously fucking the crew because her character comes off as a saint.

Evil Simon married Marsha Mason 4months after his wife died. This episode happened 3 months after her death. So he must have met Mason and married her in only a month.

These people are insufferable. The actor who plays Simon did a good job but looks too young.

Gwen deserved to think of herself. She helped Bob when he needed her, and she was calling in the favor. She raised Nicole while he devoted himself to his career and fucked around. He was a shit to hem and haw on the one thing she was asking for. I love the series but Fosse was a real piece of work.

In fifty years or so...

I read Neil Simon's biography and he says nobody ever told his wife she was dying. The doctor told him and her mother but not her. And he never told her. I always found that hard to believe. Didn't she ask how come she was not getting out of the hospital?

That was actually pretty typical at the time. Back in the 80s I worked for a woman with terminal cancer and even though she owned a company and had two kids, one of whom was disabled, no one told her she was dying. Her husband knew, but, somehow, it was thought better if she didn't know.

In this show though Simon's wife says she knew all along. Not sure if that was made up for the series.

Karma's a bitch!

I hate that the casting of these highly quirky women like Gwen, Joan McCracken, Joan Simon and Ann Reinking is so bland.

Wait until you get a load of Chita next week, R235.

====

I haven't seen the guy playing Fosse in anything else, but it's a shame they couldn't find an actor with some dancing ability. It would really help the character if he was at least seen showing some of the dancers what he wanted. This guy is a snooze.

Love Michelle though.

He won the Academy Award last year, and he's been in independent films for years, usually very good playing quirky characters. I don't think the writers have done him many favors, as they have pretty much written Fosse as a jerk.

The actress who plays Ann Reinking is good even though she vaguely reminds me of Anne Hathaway.

I wish the show were more interesting. I just don't care at all what happens to Bob Fosse--he comes across as a completely selfish egomaniac ith no redeeming qualities. Roy Scheider at least seemed sweet and vulnerable despite all the sleaziness.

Too much Nicole. She’s not that important to the story.

R241, the show is so fucking long that they needed something else to pad this series.

I'd have been more interested in seeing recreations about "Redhead" and "New Girl in Town" and that part of Verdon and Fosse's life. She's actually the more interesting character in this show. Even Fosse admits that Gwen could big a great performance off the stage. She had her own secrets and difficult home life. Michelle Williams really has nailed the character beautifully. I'm glad that she is being rediscovered by people again; she was tremendous talent. On Broadway and to theater-goers, her greatness never was in doubt. She's always been a legend.

Williams knocks it out of the park again, even in the wake of another dull as dishwater episode. God, I hope she gets the Emmy.

Also, I find the guy playing Neil Simon nebbishly sexy.

"give" not "big"

I can't figure out why I'm still watching this piece of shit. It must be either M Williams' remarkable performance or my like is even emptier than I thought.

R246 "life" not "like"

Because too many shows are about superheroes or killers in procedurals and not about great theater artists, even those with big personal faults.

I liked last night episode....sort of a weekend in the country....without all the jumping around in time..... I like seeing people talking about their relationships.....

And agree with most of the posters here - Williams is killing it.....Rockwell is not.....

A poster above mentioned Simon and his marriage to Marsha Mason......the events are well covered in his second book.....not quite as cold blooded as it seems.

R235 Ann Reinking quirky?! The actress playing her actually had her raspy voice and sedate demeanor down pat.

The actress playing Reinking is an ingenue. Reinking was NEVER an ingenue.

I must find a link for it but John Rubinstein (the original Pippin) was just on a podcast in which he (respectfully but adamantly) skewers the PIPPIN rehearsal scenes in FOSSE/VERDON as a bunch of silly lies.

Oh yes I was, r251!

TORCHIN’!

What was the podcast, R252?

The podcast with John Rubinstein is This Week on Broadway at Broadwaystars. com.

Sorry, I don't have a direct link.

good point r235. I got Joan McCracken and Joan Simon mixed up since the women seemed so similar.

I was madly in love with John Rubinstein as Pippin and saw the show numerous times. I so wanted to have his hair! And I never got why he didn't become a true breakout star from creating this role. He truly was overshadowed (unfairly IMHO) by Ben Vereen, who, of course, was also fabulous.

And speaking of Pippin, Ann Reinking really was the chorus girl you most watched in the show. She wasn't necessarily the prettiest but she had enormous sexual charisma and was the only girl in the ensemble who could deliver lines with a true sense of comic timing.

Like most Fosse shows, the female dancers were all incredibly sexy, whereas the male dancers were all funny comic types, with the exception of Christopher Chadman, who also played Lewis and was very hot.

The costumes by Patricia Zipprodt (Fiddler, Cabaret, Chicago, etc.) were incredible. I loved how she used only shades of eerie beiges as the palette for all of the ensemble costumes and was surprised to learn that she'd had an early meeting with Fosse to show him her designs and didn't want to commit to any colors, so just painted washes of beige over the figures as a temporary start, only to find Fosse insisting that they stay that way, without any true color. Genius!

On the cast album you can clearly hear Reinking say “”It’s very nice to see you, did you enjoy the show?” during “Magic To Do.”

Question about Magic to Do.............

What happens in that part on the recording where it breaks down and sounds like the are talking to the audience. I've seen clips and people walk with their hand out. What is that about?

JOHN RUBINSTEIN:

I have at this point watched the Pippin episode. Lots of stuff wrong there . . . but I was one of the committed watchers of "Smash" when it was on. Lots of friends in it, and good people, and it was a fun melodrama and a high-octane soap-opera. But I kept cringing and shouting out and being outraged at all the phony baloney they had in it -- and it was pure fiction, with no responsibility to tell any kind of truth -- but things that would NEVER happen in rehearsals, auditions, writers' rooms, performances, dressing-rooms, at parties, on breaks, you name it.….Watching the "Pippin" stuff last night, where so many things were wrong and never happened -- no girl dancer was ever cut from the "Manson Trio" because she had rejected Bob's advances; Anne Reinking was never put into that number to replace anyone, it was always Pam Sousa and Candy Brown. And Candy was never "late" or "behind the beat" as they had Sam keep yelling at her, BY NAME!!

Gwen never came to any "Pippin" rehearsals; she and Bob weren't together during that time. And if she had, she would NEVER in a million years have sat on the floor next to him while he was in the middle of rehearsing a number with dancers, and started nagging him about directing her in "Chicago"! Just wouldn't, and DIDN'T happen. She had too much respect for dancers, and him, and rehearsals in general. So stuff like that is hard to watch, even though it probably makes the story more dramatic or soapy or something, and doesn't bother anyone who wasn't there. And it's not a documentary, after all. But it is truly an out-of-body experience to watch a well-made, serious film about events that took place when one was in the room! Bizarre, nostalgic, but sort of deeply unpleasant at the same time. One wants them to at least get the facts right, and when they deliberately don't, there's a slight sense of invasion of privacy or something. Hard to describe. I can only imagine what, say, Hillary and Bill Clinton might think about the play that's on Broadway right now about them. Or what Alexander Hamilton might have thought about that musical on 46th Street!

I admire all the people involved with this "Fosse/Verdon" show, it looks and sounds great, and my quibbles are just details for sure. And Nicole [Fosse] is listed as a co-executive producer, so I'm sure she's given the green light to all this stuff. My main objections are what I wrote to you yesterday -- about Bob's sweet and funny nature being turned exclusively into darkness and dourness, and about the incorrect portrayal of him as so repeatedly stuck, unable to solve a problem or come up with an idea until Gwen does it for him and saves the day. That makes me mad. Otherwise . . . it's just showbiz.

John Rubinstein is an incredibly generous person.

Good for John. I haven't bought any of the dramatic licensing on this show. It's too transparent.

Its not a documentary.

It's not entertainment, either.

I love Broadway, I adore Fosse and Verdon, and I think Michelle Williams is wonderful, but there's no reason for this to exist. The two leads can't dance, and as Rubinstein noted the story is so thin they have to make shit up. It looks cheap, and it doesn't look the the era. The definitive Fosse biopic is All That Jazz, and this doesn't begin to approach it.

A much better idea would've been a five part documentary miniseries with tons of interview footage, and long clips of Fosse and Verdon's work. There's just no point to doing what they did.

Sorry, I wanted to love it.

I mentioned on the Broadway thread that the actress playing Reinking is Andie McDowell's daughter. She's lovely, and is a trained dancer.

I can't find All that Jazz online anywhere. Does anyone know if it is streaming somewhere? Thanks.

I'm not sure the series is painting Fosse to be a monster just to suit the SJWs of the world. I read the book it is based on, and he came across the same way in the book. The fun and charm that Rubinstein mentions was not in evidence in the biography. He came across as a loathsome man.

Wiki on Where Am I Going?: Three months after Joan Simon's death, and after Bob's stay in psychiatric care, tensions rise during a rainy night in Bob's Southhampton summer home.

[quote]I mentioned on the Broadway thread that the actress playing Reinking is Andie McDowell's daughter.

It was mentioned in this thread as well, you trailblazer you.

R268, ...and? (We saw the episode).

Re Gwen singing "Where Am I Going" I notice that when Barbra recorded it she dropped the "You tell me" last line.

Jill Clayburgh said in an interview how kind, generous and helpful John Rubinstein was to her during her run in “Pippin”, but if memory serves, her recollections of Fosse were less effusive.

I find the actress playing Ann very problematic.

She looks & acts 20 y/o. Ann was much younger than Bob but she was a divorced woman older than 20 when she met him.

It seemed that Rubinstein was talking about Smash and not Fosse/Verdon when he described it as a “high-octane soap-opera” which gets so much wrong with what actually goes on in rehearsals, auditions, etc. That was certainly true. Yes, Smash and Fosse/Verdon aren’t documentaries but it’s incredibly irritating that neither put across any semblance of reality to what the business is really about. All That Jazz totally nailed it.

I really want to love this show. And I’ve definitely watched and learned about old Broadway so that’s been beneficial. But it’s just not great. Looks great, solid cast, exciting story and milieu- and it’s boring.

Is Clayburgh portrayed in the episode? One source claims that the problem between her and Fosse arose out of her supposed bad reputation from previous stage shows. She could be quite unpleasant to others she was working with, late to rehearsals and performances. She might have changed by the time of Pippin which was only a few short years later, but maybe not.

Just checked the IMDb cast list for Glory and there is no one credited as Clayburgh.

Does Michelle Williams make any different faces in this?

Checked the Sam Wasson book and he doesn't say anything bad about Clayburgh.

I find the series' non-linear timeline tiresome. It certainly makes for a disjointed story.

Rubinstein says he almost got the role of Brian in Cabaret but Michael York became available and he was out. Fosse remembered him and cast him in Pippin.

Here he gives the story of Irene Ryan:

Dear Irene Ryan did NOT die during a performance. Nor did she finish her contract. Here's the true story: Irene was lonely in New York City. She missed her life and her friends in LA where she had lived for many years, and the cold winter and the eight-show schedule undermined her spirit somewhat. But, trouper that she was, she never missed a performance. However, I started to notice that she was beginning to look weak, or listless. I sat and watched her big number on stage every night, and I saw that she began to cut down on her moves, and to generally diminish the amazing energy that she would normally put out every time (on opening night, she stopped the show cold, and I had to stand there for about eight minutes waiting for the applause to die down before I could go on!). One Saturday matinee, she looked particularly drained, and I got worried that she might be sick. I was having dinner with Fosse at my house between shows; so I went to Ben Vereen and asked him to contact Stuart Ostrow (the producer) and have him come to the evening show, and I would ask Bob to do the same. I told Bob that I thought perhaps Irene needed a vacation, even though contractually she didn't have one coming for some months; it might do her good to go to California for a while, and then finish up her contract when the weather was warmer. Bob said he'd take a look at her in the next day or two. When I returned to the Imperial for the evening show, the call had just come through from Kennedy airport: Irene was on a plane to Los Angeles. She had had her bags packed before the matinee, and right after the show, with the help of Walter Willison, my friend and standby, she had left for the airport right after the afternoon performance. Her standby, Lucie Lancaster, went on that night, and then continued to play the part until Dorothy Stickney took over some weeks later. Irene, upon landing in LA, was taken right to the hospital, diagnosed with malnutrition!! We all called and sent her cards and love and wishes to get better fast, but she basically wasted away over the next few days. I belive she actually died about three days later of some kind of heart failure.

I have always thought that her behavior was like that of an old cat, who curls up under the bed and goes to sleep and just doesn't wake up. Irene knew (either consciously or not) that it was her "time". She stuck with her job as long as she could, and then, without fanfare, went home to die.

Here's Irene stopping the show in "Pippin". Unfortunately, no video that I know of exists, but you can hear her and the audience just having a ball of a time, with a huge ovation at the end, truly and literally stopping the show at the end.

Thank you for sharing, R280 — really interesting!

R281 that's wonderful. Thanks for sharing.

When I would hear the cast recording, I always picture the audience going WILD over the "man who calls you Granny" line, since that was her character on Beverly Hillbillies. But here, while the audience is effusive, they don't react at all to that line. I guess people really didn't pay attention to or care about that stuff then.

[quote]Ann was much younger than Bob but she was a divorced woman older than 20 when she met him.

Yes... she was all of a whopping 22! (Ann was born November 1949, Pippin opened October 1972). She had been married for less than a year to Larry Smalls in 1970, when she was all of 20 - hardly the seasoned, worldly woman you are trying to make her sound.

The actress did a fine on portraying the fairly young, hippie chick Ann was back in 1973, when the episode took place. Her older sisterhood with Nicole has been well documented repeatedly. She was young, face it, give it up.

The Emmy is Williams' to lose. Probably also the SAG.

Rockwell is sex on a stick.

R284

My mistake. I always thought she was around 25-26.

R285

She'll have strong Emmy competition from Patricia Arquette. She was likewise amazing in Dannemora.

Patty Arquette isn't fit to hold Williams' leotard.

Plus ol' Patty stunk up the joint in The Act, so thats' two strikes against her.

You're a real charmer, aren't you, r288?

I will survive, r288.

I'd much rather watch an hour of John Rubinstein reminiscing about PIPPIN than see the rest of FOSSE/VERDON.

I saw John Rubinstein as Charlemagne in the national tour of the Diane Paulus "Pippin" in D.C. in December 2014. He and Lucie Arnaz, in the Irene Ryan role, were both wonderful.

I think Rockwell is very sexy

R283 I think the audience reaction might have varied from night to night -- also based on delivery. Someone I knew who saw it says that the night he saw it she really landed the word "Granny" like "Graaaaaaneeeeee" and the audience exploded with laughter. But the recording I posted is a pretty incredible record of how she truly stopped the show with her performance. It's thrilling to hear actually.

There was big laughter and applause on the “granny” line.

I don’t think Sam Rockwell is sexy but he did show he had nice legs in Tuesday’s episode.

And now for a brief Irene Ryan break......

ARP!

The bitch playing Ryan in Fosse/Verdon was way too tall.

I get Irene Ryan and Ellen Corby mixed up.

I don't really enjoy the Martha Raye version on the 1981 video. Or when Cloris Leachman took Ryan's role in the Beverly Hillbillies movie. Or Imogene Coca who played "Granny's maw" in the 1981 reunion.

Ryan was very hard to replace. It was smart to add that acrobat stuff for Andrea Martin. That made up for the lack of Ryan and the corny lyrics.

R299 - and Jeanette Nolan

Here's Clayburgh on Fosse: "He just didn’t like me. Well, okay, he hated me. He had this very arrogant ‘Bob Fosse’s a genius and you’re just a cog in the wheel’ approach. He didn’t like it that I wasn’t a dancer, that I was an actor with a role, and I had questions about the role.”

R302, and Frances Reid

Granny doing "I'm a Woman" introduced by Roy Rogers and Dale Evans.

It would have been a gas to replace Irene Ryan with Blossom Rock.

[quote] You're a real charmer, aren't you, [R288]?

Oh, blow it out your ass, fussy.

Rereading Rubinstein’s comments and the first paragraph is about Smash, not Fosse/Verdon. And I totally agree with him. Smash wasn’t a documentary but it was amazing how they got so much wrong with what happens behind the scenes in mounting a Broadway musical.

And the crazy stupid thing about SMASH is it was created in NY by some Broadway people like Michael Mayer and Theresa Rebeck, who each have their share of Broadway credits.

SMASH......let me tell you about Deb Messing.

Odd that in the clip at R305, even in an appearance on "The Hollywood Palace," Irene Ryan was required to (or chose to) stay in character as Granny.

Ryan appeared as herself on "Password"; they had her play with Donna Douglas at one point as partners, when i guess some contestant must have dropped out at the last minute.

There's nothing wrong with fudging the truth or the process of how something goes in real life to tell a story visually. (And no, Rubenstein is not arguing that there is.) Especially with Smash, which wasn't making a documentary, but really a nighttime soap set in theater.

Even in the case of Fosse/Verdon, they aren't going to adhere to the strictest of timelines or get every detail down. Dramatic license is fine. But if you're going to embellish, if you're going to fuck with the truth for the sake of dramatic license, then for chrissakes, be dramatic. This show is as inert as they come. Whoever said they would have rather seen an 8 hour documentary about them- I second that. Even a talking head and archival footage doc could have been more interesting and dramatic that this.

Michelle is in it to win it. I have no idea what's going on because of the sequence that things are being told. And really I don't care. Nothing EVER happens. haha. It's just on in the background now when my boyfriend puts it on. And then every once in a while I catch a scene where Michelle is acting the house down. She is really in character.

I'll ask this question here since next week episode deals with Chicago, Why did Jerry Orbach perform on the Tonys and not Gwen and Chita?

I'll make a guess with a couple of reasons, r315:

I would imagine Gwen and Chita wouldn't have wanted to get into skimpy costumes and get all sweaty and then have to get back into their gowns.

And they're not together in any numbers with the Cell Block Girls which would be a major selling point for the TV audiences. All I Want Is Love with Jerry is a sexy number showing off the girls and needing no context to sell it.

I wasn't all that familiar with Gwen Verdon, other than the movie Damn Yankees but Michelle Williams just seems to be Gwen. Fabulous performance.

I think Gwen and Chita were also a bit, well, jealous of the attention Donna McKechnie and "A Chorus Line" were getting. She was being treated as the big new thing, as opposed to Gwen and Chita returning to Broadway. Gwen even predicted that Vivian Reed, excellent singer, but not really a dancer in "Bubbling Brown Sugar" would win. I think Gwen and Chita had even pre-planned for the other to go up on the podium if either of them won, but of course it turned out to be Donna's year, even if she really won for a part that was in actuality a very strong supporting role with one great number.

Say WHAT, r318??? Miss Reed was a dancer....

Bennett fought for Donna to get the Tony nomination in starring because he knew that he had several others who had the chance at supporting and wanted both awards. Pam Blair didn't get nominated which was somewhat surprising. Charlotte was nominated in the correct category for the revival.

Vivian Reed did a great job in BBS as well as the Tonys.

I checked out twenty minutes into the latest episode as it was so interminably slow and boring. Who even gives a shit about those secondary characters we'd never seen before and yet they're giving these long-winded speeches left and right.

I don't get all the praise for Norbert as Paddy, puffing endlessly on cigarettes and spouting off about life and death, wearing a bad wig.

And who was the nobody who played Neil Simon? Simon might have been a nebbish in real life life but the role needed someone with a little charisma to sell the character.

The only one that looks the part is Williams

Did Gwen really help SHirley in the movie version of Sweet Charity? Why wasn't Gwen in the movie?

The bitch playing Chita better deliver.

Footage from the original Chicago in 1975 with Gwen and Chita....who at the time were 50 and 42.

Yes Gwen coached Shirley for the movie of Sweet Charity. MacLaine was cast because she was considered box office who could sing and dance passably though I think her last few films had bombed. I read that at one time they could have cast Gwen if Jack Lemmon played Oscar but he felt the part was too small to accept.

[quote] Yes Gwen coached Shirley for the movie of Sweet Charity. MacLaine was cast because she was considered box office who could sing and dance passably though I think her last few films had bombed. I read that at one time they could have cast Gwen if Jack Lemmon played Oscar but he felt the part was too small to accept.

Thank goodness. No one wanted to see 47 year old Verdon (looking 57) play a hooker on a screen 10 stories high. Stage is one thing.

Gwen was never considered but Fosse fought for her when he was the director and MacLaine was already cast. The studio wanted Diana Ross and Rita Moreno for Nikki and Helene but because they already had MacLaine, they relented and Fosse got Paula Kelly and Chita. BTW, Rivera was really unhappy with her role in the film. She said Fosse wanted her character to look cheap. A terrible streaked wig and he made her wear really harsh white makeup.

[quote] The studio wanted Diana Ross and Rita Moreno for Nikki and Helene

As if.

Rita Moreno's Oscar was seven years earlier.

I'm aware, thank you. I would consider that recent. Especially during a time when movies played in cinemas for upwards of 18 months-2 years if they were a hit, and 24 hour news cycles and internet bullshit didn't give everyone and everything a 10 minute shelf life.

Another reason Jack Lemmon may have passed was because Oscar in the film has to sing.

For those seven years after her Oscar, Moreno had three movies Summer and Smoke, Cry of Battle and Night of the Following Day. Yeah, she was too big and busy to do Sweet Charity.

As for Ross, she was seen as a singing star only who would pop up on any variety show. The same year Sweet Charity came out, she was on TV's Tarzan as a nun. Yeah, she would have done it if she were offered in a second.

[quote]Another reason Jack Lemmon may have passed was because Oscar in the film has to sing.

Oscar has one song in the movie version. I think Jack Lemmon could have handled it.

Jack Lemmon's career was much too hot in 1969 for him to accept a supporting role. He just made "The Odd Couple" with Walther Matthau the year before.

[quote] For those seven years after her Oscar, Moreno had three movies Summer and Smoke, Cry of Battle and Night of the Following Day. Yeah, she was too big and busy to do Sweet Charity. As for Ross, she was seen as a singing star only who would pop up on any variety show. The same year Sweet Charity came out, she was on TV's Tarzan as a nun. Yeah, she would have done it if she were offered in a second.

I'm sorry your life is so empty you have to keep pushing and pushing to prove yourself right about this. If it means that much to you, you can have it.

R338, typical statement from a loser who has no argument. The facts are right there cupcake, but you're too stupid to admit it.

^^ embarrassing

R340, your arguments are getting weaker. Just finger yourself to Touch Me In the Morning. You'll feel much better.

Here is the "biggest star in the world" on Tarzan in 1968. Supporting stars Mary and Cindy.

Wow, are you still going on about this? Why are you so invested? Are you never allowed to be right in real life? I already told you you could have this one. It's yours. My gift. Just stop getting yourself so worked up. It's not a good look.

Sounds like someone is triggered.

You are VERY triggered and I'm glad you finally realize it. Have a nice cup of tea and think about why it's so important to you that these two women would have accepted these roles that you have to behave this way. Poor thing.

Also considered for roles in the film were Diahann Carroll, Leslie Uggams, and Lola Falana.

R345, the only thing missing is you sticking your tongue out and running home to mommy. You said something stupid and fangurlish and got called on it and can't accept it. Considering you're talking about tea, you must be nearing 80. Past your bedtime.

A lot of love for Cabaret, Lenny, All That Jazz. Even Star 80. That goes for me as well. The one Fosse film I never saw was Sweet Charity. As much as I love the other four, I've never been interested in seeing Charity.

Should I bother?

I think Verdon haunts the production and MacLaine is no Verdon, but the other dancing is good.

Valerie Perrine, despite getting an Oscar nomination, apparently despised Fosse due to his abusive treatment of her while filming Lenny. I wonder if she's portrayed or even mentioned in the next episode.

Perrine said she and clashed over the character. She said "Honey wasn't supposed to be a good dancer, and this was disappointing. I was being directed by Bob Fosse and I had to look bad." Fosse choreographed Honey's moves to be off the beat but "I kept getting it right every time."

I read the book the series is based on and Perrine doesn't come across that way at all r350. She did say he took her to lunch at a hotel and she said she had a boyfriend and was like.....so does that mean I lose the role. He said no.

She was flirtatious with him though. When he had the heart attack she sent him a get well card that was a huge nude cut out of herself.

I don't think (at least according to the book.) that she hated him at all.

r348 it does have its moments. It is very stagey but MacLaine is funny and there are some wonderful numbers. If They Could See Me Now works well and her interaction with the movie star on the street where she first spots him always cracks me up. She gave a good performance. Plus there are some nice NYC locale shots if you like that. Give it a whirl.

I watched "Sweet Charity" on TCM some years ago, and at the conclusion, they showed an alternate ending, in which Charity and Oscar end up back together. Apparently that's the ending Fosse wanted, but the studio wanted the one that ended up in the movie. Perhaps the execs thought a prostitution whore didn't deserve a happy ending, although the alternate ending acknowledges that the odds are against Charity and Oscar staying together.

Perhaps I should have preceded this with a "spoiler alert," but the movie is 50 years old, after all.

Miss Perrine said she had an affinity with gay men because "Who doesn't love cock?".

I've tried to find Sweet Charity and All that Jazz and Lenny on Netflix and Amazon, but they are not streaming. I don't have a tv or a cable subscription, just an internet. Does anyone know where they might be streaming and available? Thank you.

Sweet Charity....full movie

All That Jazz....full movie.....not the best quality, but the full movie nonetheless.

Perrine said she loved working with Fosse. I would think that's correct because of her reputation for sexuality. She said she had to shave for her G-String scene and it was filmed on Valentines Day so she shaved her pubes in the shape of a Heart and told Fosse she had a "heart on" for him and exposed herself. Fosse obviously loved that. She also said she had reservations about the lesbian scene but Fosse choreographed it, almost as if it were a dance and made it comfortable. He also barred anyone from the set who wasn't essential to the filming so there wouldn't be an audience.

She pulled another stunt on Hoffman. There's a scene where he slowly pulls the sheet off of her exposing her nude body. She got a dildo and put it between her legs so when he pulled the sheet, the cock sprung up causing Hoffman to crack up.

[quote] —some people are too fucking lazy to do things for themselves...

Or maybe he just didn't want to watch a shitty quality, cropped bootleg of either movie. I wouldn't.

Bunch of moody, know it all cunts on this thread. First Rita and Diana's agent up there and now this.

And for anyone who wants to check to see if a movie is streaming anywhere, there's a great website called Just Watch. It's not infallible, but it's the best resource I've found.

I'm the one who posted about Perrine. The specific story was the courtroom scene when Honey had to testify. Perrine was excited for her bf flying in to see her. She wasn't expressing the fear and dread Fosse thought was necessary to the scene. He had a crew member whisper that a plane had crashed and her bf was killed. Perrine was devastated. They shot the scene. Fosse got the expression he wanted. She was later told it was a ruse. She was furious. That was the story, anyway.

Thanks for posting the better ones. :)

WHET Valerie Perrine? Her career was so hot for about 2-3 years and then suddenly.....phffffft!

She has Parkinson's, r363.

R362, I think Fosse told the story on Tom Snyder's show. The scene was where Honey is sent to jail and her expression was meant to be shock and total surprise. They did it many times and Perrine started to lose concentration. So he had the story conveyed and filmed her reaction.

Fosse also said that the way he got Marisa Berenson to react to her murdered dog was to put a place of cow entrails in a tray. Snyder asked what would have happened if she vomited and Fosse said that's the take that would have been in the film.

Perrine sounds like she was one vulgar bitch.

She could be bawdy, r366. You sound like a prim, prudish bitch.

[quote]WHET Valerie Perrine?

"Can't Stop the Music."

She made a woman out of Bruce Jenner.

She was fun in "Superman" with Gene Hackman as Lex Luther.

R367, there’s “bawdy” (like Mae West and Bette Midler and there’s “vulgar” (like Valerie Perrine). Learn the difference, bitch.

Midler is as vulgar as they get. Remember her "taco" joke?

Valerie was literally a whore. My father dated her in the 70s, and she was always "short of money".

If they had made a movie about Robin Byrd, they could have cast Valerie Perrine.

Yeah, dildos and flashing pussies are not bawdy, they’re crass.

“Diana and Rita!”

“As if!”

“You’re triggered!!”

“You’re a petulant fangurl!!!”

Michelle Williams is great. The rest of the series is... mmm... not so great.

IMDB lists 8 episodes total. So they only have three left, and that has to encompass Chicago, All That Jazz, Star 80, Big Deal, the Sweet Charity revival and his death (not to mention all of Bob's relationships, and you know that cunt Nicole is gonna spend half an episode on how she got a role in A Chorus Line). Now one episode could certainly cobble together the last three, but the way they've been lackadaisically wandering towards the finish line, I feel like they're gonna give Chicago or All That Jazz short shrift, especially after wasting an hour last week on nothing.

No, R378, my friend on the crew said Chicago and All That Jazz with a lot of focus and Star 80 is barely covered. There’s some Big Deal and the Sweet Charity revival is only used as the setting for Fosse’s death.

For me, where they've really fucked up is not focusing more on Gwen's life and career before she met Fosse. I'd love to have seen more of her working with Jack Cole, the Hollywood films she worked on and Can-Can (besides the endless closeups in her dressing room hearing applause).

And if it has to be with Fosse, then more of Damn Yankees (on Broadway and her return to Hollywood). And, of course, New Girl in Town (a musical based on Anna Christie, supposedly starring a dancer "who couldn't act" ferchrissakes!) and Redhead.

IMHO what a waste of time recreating iconic musical numbers when the original numbers are so readily available and can't be beat.

Gwen really is the more interesting character. Fosse is basically a guy who was sexually initiated by strippers at too young an age, which helped lead to addictions later on in life while becoming a fine director and choregrapher. Gwen had early marriage with assault, a child, working as a critic, then as assistant and dancer with infamously difficult Jack Cole, teaching Marilyn Monroe, Jane Russell and Betty Grable their choreography, legendary Broadway breakout, 4 Tonys, iconic musical roles, in addition to dealing with the pros and very big cons of Bob Fosse.

Gwen is only more interesting because of how they're writing Fosse.

Well, hell, R381, we’ve only seen a fraction of all That!! 😳

I feel cheated now 🤨

I think we played witty much will get very limited exposure to any project that didn’t involve them both. Like for instance, Dancin’ and Lenny.

[quote] I think we played witty much will get very limited exposure to any project that didn’t involve them both. Like for instance, Dancin’ and Lenny.

Well, according to the producers, Bob couldn't take a shit without Gwen gently coaxing the fecal matter out of his ass, so all projects involved them both in one way or another.

I disagree with those who say that last week's episode was a waste of time. Even though there was not much plot, and, as far as I recall, only one set -- the Hamptons house -- I think it did a good job of showing the dynamic between Verdon and Fosse; how single-minded she was about her career; how she manipulated Fosse to get what she wants; how she was willing for Fosse to overwork himself so he could direct Chicago; and her fear of aging out of roles. I think it was a good episode, and, damn, Michelle Williams is really great in this. Rockwell? Not so much. I wish he had more charisma.

Another "YES!" vote for Ahmad Simmons' ass (playing Ben Vereen)

R386 Gwen did come off as focused on a role she really wanted. But she put her career on hold for a number of years after she married Fosse to have Nicole. She did some tv, but she turned down things like the musical "High Spirits" which I heard was offerred to her. After a big return and smash in "Sweet Charity", she helped Fosse in actually teaching Shirley MacLaine do "her" role, which to some extent is kind of heart-breaking even though Gwen knew what happens in Holllywood. But she might have done more shows if she were willing to work with someone besides Fosse in a musical. Was Gwen on record about Michael Kidd; I mean, he's the one whose choreography in "Can-Can" turned her into a star. Plus when they were hiring Fosse for "Damn Yankees" didn't the tv show have her asking Hal Prince if they could perhaps hire Jerry [presumably Robbins]? They also had Gower Champion working on Broadway around that time, among some other folks who could have done some great dances for Gwen, but she was so enamored with Fosse. The timing, as recounted in the tv episode, which may or may not be true, might have been off, but a star of Gwen's magnitude on Broadway, who had put aside her own career and knew her dancing time was limited, had some rights asking her husband to give her some preference for a change. Dammit, I want to do Roxie!

Happy to read Rubestein's critique. I'm realizing (as a former chorus boy) how much I know about Fosse, and how much of the series is baloney and tragic melodrama, similar to the ridiculous revisions in 'Bohemian Rhapsody.'

Are biopics truly going to continue down this sordid lane?

Yes.

Not to mention Night and Day, Words and Music, Til the Clouds Roll By, Three Little Words, Love Me or Leave Me, I'll Cry Tomorrow, With a Song in My Heart, The Great Ziegfeld, Funny Girl, Jeanne Eagels.......well, I could go on and on.

The lack of veracity is hardly new even if, perhaps, the dullness is.

I don't think lack of authenticity (or facts) is really the problem here. The problem is, the writers don't have anything to say, and certainly can't think of a new way to say it. Fosse said it all (about himself) in All That Jazz, and who better? The show should have focused on Gwen, but ultimately I think she's less interesting than Bob, even if she won 4 Tonys. And no one would have watched it.

I'm surprised how quickly Gwen's back story came and went. She worked on Singin' in the Rain, among lots of other things. That would have been a hoot, showing Gwen post-dubbing the splash sounds for Gene Kelly's big number.

When they tried to link Fosse to the end of Pippin, well, that's just rubbish.

I guess you won't miss the man, then.

LOL

[quote]Gwen post-dubbing the splash sounds for Gene Kelly's big number

Is that true? I’d never heard that before.

R396, from the TCM.com message board:

[quote]Most taps were added later, sometimes by the dancer him/herself, and sometimes by another dancer. Gwen Verdon often told of how she helped to dub the footbeats for Gene Kelley's "Singin' in the Rain" number by dancing in a basin of water. I recall also hearing Ann Miller say that as a young dancer she dubbed in the taps for others in many movies. Matching the steps of another dancer you are watching on film must be quite a skill in itself.

It's certainly a skill, but a tappers in a chorus line are attempting to match each other.

^ the not a

I heard that Carol Haney, who was Gene Kelloy's assistant, asked Gwen to help her dub in Kelly's taps for that number. It sounds like they had fun doing it.

Kelly's

And how could they not have included scenes of Gwen coaching Marilyn Monroe, Jane Russell and Betty Grable? The possibilities for humor and details would be irresistible. Was the casting of those actresses so insurmountable?

Are the writers actually too young to know or care about who those women were??

'No, Marilyn, you move your left hip this way and your left tit will follow. Believe me, it will."

I never believed Williams in that film about Marilyn Monroe. Mia Farrow, yes, but Marilyn? No.

ALL THAT HOUSE

I have never seen an episode of House before. Is that clip typical of its content? It was...odd; like if Fosse directed A Clockwork Orange. Hugh Laurie is HAF.

Not really typical, r406. I looked up and House was on and I watched that number and felt I absolutely had to post it in this thread.

@mindykaling: Emma Thompson has said Hugh Laurie was "lugubriously sexy, like a well-hung eel."

This episode is a drag.

I was under the impression this episode would be about the making of "Chicago."

Not so much.

A real slog to get through.

[quote] Dear Irene Ryan did NOT die during a performance.

I was there too, and I tell you she did!

I have never broken during a performance, ever! I was on stage in "Pippin" with Irene Ryan when she died, and I kept going!

[quote] And how could they not have included scenes of Gwen coaching Marilyn Monroe, Jane Russell and Betty Grable? The possibilities for humor and details would be irresistible. Was the casting of those actresses so insurmountable?

Mary!

[quote] Are the writers actually too young to know or care about who those women were??

[italic]Mary!![/italic]

Once again, they tried to insert fug Nicole into the episode and it was another "yawn, who cares" moment.

Did Gwen slur every word like Michelle seems to think she did?

"Dahhhling, I can't WAITT for Bahhhbb and I to start work on Chicaaaaaago."

Yeah, I thought Michelle was a bit over-the-top tonight r415. Not her Emmy episode.

This wasn't a very good episode.

Did we have to see Ann fucking Fosse in the hospital?

Did we have to see the 50-year-old strippers molesting young Bob AGAIN?

Chits should have been played by a drag queen. Or was she?

Or has she in real life always been played by one?

"He is taking Seconal... Dexedrine.. cocaine... what else?"

Casting adolescent Nicole with Martin Short in drag was a bold choice.

I feel like I'm being asked yet again to feel sorry for him for pushing himself so hard (when that was his own decision because of his own ego), and for having sex as a teenager with all those strippers (every young straight boy's dream).

R423 Yeah the self pity here is beyond annoying. His character is a one note samba. Hard to see if he gets any redemption for being a total dick throughout.

The thing is though there is nothing about his character that is interesting. Whether it's Rockwell or the writing or both, watching this characterization of Fosse is like watching a lump of coal.

Gwen was unlikable this episode. Emmy looking shakey now.

I played unlikable and still won an Emmy!

I think r427 was referring to the quality of her acting being unlikable, not her character.

I’m sorry, was referring to r426.

Agree with everything that’s been said so far about this last episode, and especially L’dMAO with r41- through r422. Great DL-style snippets.

the quality of our comments is better than the reviewed product itself.

Ok let’s say that again because this thread has gotten jumpy with bugs:

Laughed my ass off with comments r417 through r422. They were great examples of DL humor.

Sometimes our comments are better than the actual show:

Is Shyanne Jackson on this show? She's in everything else of FX. Who will she play? A seductive chorine?

Actually, regarding the scene with Gwen and the doctor: I wasn't sure if she was going to bite off his head for asking for an autograph of Bob and behaving like a superfran of Gwen's. It turned out she was playing the doctor so she could get Fosse transferred to a better room without a screaming guy in the next bed. But Michelle had me guessing that she might at some point erupt at the doctor's inappropriate gushing at (famous) people who are in the hospital for a real serious medical reason.

super fan, not superfran -- though I'm sure Fran Drescher would plotz over Gwen Verdon and Bob Fosse if she had the chance!

R433, I thought that was a great scene. One of the best in the entire series. Otherwise, I thought last night's episode was mostly dreadful.

I agree that it was a really hard episode to watch. Plus we already knew about the strippers in the club, and that work was overwhelming him. All those cross-cuts just made the viewer uncomfortable. About the only other thing revealed was that his father said his makeup made him look like a "fa***ot: Maybe that also led to his overcompensating by screwing every girl in sight.

Oops, take out the one extra * in the f word above.

Do y'all think Ryan Murphy watched All That Jazz? Ugh! Such a mistake to attempt scenes directly taken from that movie, (Lenny, too!). Whether you love or hate ATJ, the snippets last night were awful!

I've hardly ever heard anyone talk about the movie "Lenny" since the year it came out. I've heard it was good, but it's not something people talk about much with reverence from that period of films. So many great films came out in the 70s, and that one really has been overshadowed. s

Ryan Murphy had nothing to do with this show.

I hate my parents.

Actually, I think your reaction (which I also had) was exactly the goal of that scene. To make us think “oh my that doctor is an insensitive jerk” so that then we are impressed by the outcome. Any other theatrical diva would have hit the roof, but Gwen was savvy enough to use the inappropriate moment to Bob’s advantage.

Yeah, could you imagine Patti LuPone with that doctor?

Or Helen Lawson??

Can anyone explain how Nicole aged four years in three months?

R445:

In one word, puberty.

The beach house scene was in the Summer of 1973, when Nicole was 10 years old. Chicago rehearsals were on the spring of 1975, when she was a precocious 12 year old dancer - raised in Manhattan schools and dance studios- with boobies and a fashion sense that embraced extreme fads.

[quote] The beach house scene was in the Summer of 1973, when Nicole was 10 years old. Chicago rehearsals were on the spring of 1975, when she was a precocious 12 year old dancer

Lenny was released in 1974, so if Bob was still editing it, it couldn't have been 1975. And Chicago was supposed to begin performances about 18 months before it actually did, but was postponed because of Bob's heart attack.

Lenny was a great movie. I watched it again a few years ago. It holds up well.

I wish they hadn't cut Jan's "You're soaking in it" line, r448.

Speaking of manipulation, Fosse pulled this while shooting “Lenny”: Lenny Bruce’s wife Honey (former stripper—watch the movie and you’ll know where his choreography comes from) was busted for drugs, and despite being assured by her lawyer that she would get off she was sentenced to a couple years in prison. Fosse wasn’t getting the right look of shock from the actress, Valerie Perrine, so in her hearing he casually mentioned to a crew member, “Did you hear about Valerie’s boyfriend? He was killed in a helicopter crash.”

(Source: I watched an interview with Fosse where Dick Cavett gently brought this up, and Fosse admitted it.

Lucy told Gary not to do Lenny, but he ignored her.

I like the series, but last night’s episode was boring. And yes, the stripper thing is getting old. The strippers were an excuse for him to screw hardbodied 25 year old dancers, which he did because he could- not because he was damaged. Come off it already.

[quote] Casting adolescent Nicole with Martin Short in drag was a bold choice.

LOL! Best line on Datalounge in months!

R450 that was amply discussed upthread.

It's just so hard to care about these people because they don't change very much.

Rubinstein's complaint that the show is hiding that the real Fosse was a deeply charming and sweet man is actually a substantive criticism--Roy Scheider got you to care about his Fosse in All That jazz by conveying that charm, but Rockwell, for whatever reason, is eschewing that route. So I just don;t care what happens to him. "Oh, if he dies now, he will never live to choreograph the 'Air-otica' sequence in 'All That Jazz'" is not very compelling. I've been surprised because Rockwell can be very charming if he wants (see 'The Way, Way Back') and I think he's a fine actor, so i don;t know why he made this choice.

Williams is having better luck with Verdon--she's really disappeared into the part. But I wish she made us feel more the character's inner life--her desperation as a star dancer about to turn fifty.

And the Emmy goes to: Sam Rockwell.

R445, the Chicago rehearsals as depicted in last night’s episode were actually in November 1974. After the heart attack rehearsals resumed in March 1975. Lenny was released in December 1974.

R455 The coming attraction of next week's episode I think is going to touch on that. I bet Gwen wanted to do more of the dancing in "Chicago", but her body couldn't handle as much as she could have when she was younger, so the more youthful Chita's Velma was given more dances to do in the show. But then again, Gwen had been known to cut numbers back to her time in "Sweet Charity" (though I think mostly singing numbers like "Where Am I Going"), so even though Charity was a really demanding part, her stamina back then was tested. "Chicago" was about 7-8 years after Gwen's run in "Sweet Charity" had ended, though she had come back to do the less strenous role of Lola in tours of "Damn Yankees" around 1973. But while Gwen's role is the acting lead of "Chicago", her dance requirements for the show weren't as difficult all even long as they were for Chita.

all "evening" long, that is

Bobby with the strippers in Fosse/Verdon struck me as far more disturbing than the fictionalized young Joe Gideon with the strippers in All That Jazz for several reasons. One is that Bobby in Fosse/Verdon is 13 and looks it. In All That Jazz Joe looks to be 16 or 17. Another is that in All That Jazz it could appear to some viewers that the strippers “messing with him” was a teasing/bullying prank which resulted in a sight gag (the stain on the front of his pants). Yet another reason (and I know I should tread lightly here) is that Joe in All That Jazz is nerdy looking and not particularly attractive in a sexual way (sorry, all these years later I still think Keith Gordon wasn’t believable casting as a younger version of Roy Scheider’s Joe). The boy who plays Bobby is quite handsome-the camera seems to knowingly worship his shiny face and perfect white teeth in close-up when he’s taking his bows. So when the strippers “mess with him” it’s most likely that what they were doing to him was no teasing/bullying prank, they were actually turned on by this young boy, grabbed the opportunity for intimate relations with him and thus committed thoroughly disgusting acts upon/with a minor. I thought Bob’s warring emotions about this bizarre coming-of-age scenario were beautifully expressed in last night’s episode.

Fosse seems to have shunted aside the real truth that he was sexually abused; last week's episode has, whether it's true or not, Neil Simon and Paddy Chayesky acting like admiring frat boys when Fosse tells the story. It's one thing to "get some" and another to not really quite understand all the implications of that at age 13, especially when he was the one who was the aggressor with those dames.

who was "not" the aggressor

Also, when you're first sexual experiences are with multiple partners at a very young age, it might disturb your sense of boundaries about what is proper sexually, and could explain his promiscuity. With molestation, there's a sense of abruptly disturbing the process of moving from child to adult.

When he was asked about the set design for Chicago, Fosse made it known that the stage had to be much smaller so the audience would never expect Gwen to dance full out. The original set design was a Top Hat with the orchestra on top and it would be on a turntable and would rotate when the scenes would change. His response was he would love to see a show staged on that set but he didn't want to be the one to stage it.

Looks like they completely omitted his threesome with Reinking and Nairn Smith. Maybe it was a lawsuit. Reinking might as well be wearing a halo in this series.

R461, you forgot about Ron, though. He was obviously creeped out by the story of Bobby and the strippers.

The girl playing the older daughter sure is ugly

Norbert Leo Butz is the brother of Teresa Butz, a gay woman who was brutally raped and murdered by a lunatic who broke into her and her partner's home in Seattle in 2009. Isaiah Kalebu told her and her partner Jennifer Hopper that he just came "for pussy" and if they did what he told them to do he wouldn't hurt them. He lied. He raped them both, multiple times, in every way possible, anally, vaginally, orally. Then he started slitting their throats. Jennifer Hopper managed to survive but Teresa Butz was killed. Kalebu was caught, convicted and sent to life in prison. It was a high profile murder because of its brutality and because some people thought that if only poor Kalebu had gotten the "psychiatric intervention" he needed the murder wouldn't have happened. But that's just bullshit. Nothing would have prevented him from committing heinous crimes. He's one of those crazies who is beyond help.

That's indeed very sad.

If nobody remembers Judy Garland, as some are claiming in the Rene JUDY! thread, why do they keep producing big musical numbers like "Get Happy" for primetime TV?

IF IT DIDNT EXIST IN THEIR PRECIOUS SHORT LIFETIME, THEN IT DOESNT EXIST.

Fosse's compulsive promiscuity obviously stemmed from the sexual abuse he endured from those awful strippers. Reminds me of all those porn stars who were sexually abused as children. Promiscuity often stems from that kind of abuse.

I was sexually exploited by a sibling and I'm a big tramp.

My brother was sexually abused by the same sibling and he has no problems with fidelity.

Michael Douglas was taken to whorehouses in LA by daddy Kirk when he was 13. Small wonder he ended up with a sexual addiction problem.

This week's episode was deadly dull. It seems as though the writers really don't know what to say, or how to say it. It is repetitive as fuck, and, worse, boring. How can they make that story boring? That takes special skills.

"Looks like they completely omitted his threesome with Reinking and Nairn Smith. "

Wait, what? Please explain, R464!

Speed also contributes to sexual promiscuity.

Fosse didn't call up chorus girls in the middle of the night and then fire them if they didn't come over and fuck him, he did that because he could get away with it! He was in a position where he had power over others that he could abuse if he chose, and he chose to use his power over his dancers in abusive ways.

So yes, I think those strippers were vile for molesting a boy the moment he hit puberty, but I don't buy that they were solely or largely responsible for his compulsive sexual behavior as an adult, especially if that was a one-time incident. There's also the drug use, the sexual revolution, working in environments where the sexual harassment of subordinates was tolerated, his own insecurity about being an ugly bald guy, the sixties, the seventies, and his own free will.

R476, its all above in the thread. Reinking and Smith apparently were shocked when they saw the threeway in Lenny because they were sure Fosse based it on them.

I don't get why you say that this episode was boring. I thought it was done well. It allowed Rockwell to show off some of his talents. He's a great actor. Plus he's sexy. (Yum.)

So even the assistant working on editing Lenny fucked Fosse ? What am I missing ?

R478, it wasn’t a one-time thing with the strippers, it happened several times according to his biography.

[quote]I don't get why you say that this episode was boring. I thought it was done well. It allowed Rockwell to show off some of his talents. He's a great actor

Rockwell is a talented actor, but he's been tiresomely one-note throughout, displaying none of that charm that Fosse supposedly had and that Roy Scheider brought to his character in "All That Jazz." Yes, the writing may have something to do with it. But even Rockwell's look is wrong, beginning with the bald head and gross and distracting comb-over. Compare Rockwell's look in this to the photo that OP used.

R481, that was even in ATJ. Gideon is seen in the hospital bed with his assistant who is topless. The biggest difference is that the assistant in ATJ was gorgeous and the one in Fosse/Verdon was bow wow.

Which one do you mean, R484. There have been two editing assistants-the one when he was editing Cabaret and the one when he edited Lenny. I agree that the one in Tuesday’s episode was fug.

It's totally in character to have him banging the ordinary-looking assistant, picky the man was not!

There's a psychological analysis of All That Jazz by a therapist who worked as one of the music editors on All That Jazz. It's long, but kind of interesting--basically, he says Fosse was a narcissist, but also says he was a really nice and kind guy as a boss. I think you get that duality in Joe Gideon in All That Jazz--Roy Scheider's charming, sensitive and a completely selfish and self-absorbed asshole. He's self-destructive, in part, because he knows he's a rotten guy and he can't seem to stop being a rotten guy. The narcissism locks him in. He's unable to really connect to anyone else. (Which is the point of the Air-rotica scene.)

Main issue with Lenny is that Fosse couldn't use Cliff Gorman in the role. You can get glimpses of just how good he was in the role from All That Jazz.

R485, the fug one with the Farrah Fawcett hair do was the one he fucked in last weeks boreathon.

My friend on the crew said there’s a scene in the finale where he’s rehearsing Debbie Allen for “If They Could See Me Now”, she’s not performing to his satisfaction and he takes off her hat, gives it to Verdon and snaps “Show her how it’s done.” And he’s dead from a heart attack days later. Karma’s a bitch, bud.

I prefer the "All That Jazz" scene where a young 'Fosse,' played by Keith Gordon, has cum on his pants. Hot.

Gordon looked nothing like Roy Scheider. Very bad casting.

Well, the kid playing Fosse doesn't resemble Sam, so there.

"Gordon looked nothing like Roy Scheider. Very bad casting."

It would have been tough to find a young actor who looked a lot like Roy Schneider. He had a very, uh, unusual face. I thought Gordon did fine in the movie.

R489, it would be another ridiculous moment. Fosse rehearsed both Reinking and McKechnie in the role after Allen and he died watching McKechnie in the role. In fact, Verdon was rehearsing Allen before Fosse came aboard in LA and that's fairly well known.

If he takes the top hat from Reinking and tells her to watch Verdon, that would be something to see.

Other then Williams, casting for this show sucked

I thinK Qualley is holding her own.

Ohhh, R494, I had assumed Fosse died soon after that rehearsal scene with Debbie Allen. That scene is in the finale, though, he does take off the top hat off Debbie’s head, hands it to Gwen and says to her “ Show her how it’s done.”

Some theatre friends on FB are going on about how this was the best episode yet. It was actually my least favourite episode, primarily because of all the coughing and the fact that I do not envy Bob Fosse's lifestyle. Plus very little Michelle Williams. And rehash of the stripper thing again. And the weird re-casting of Nicole.

Why was this episode so great?

Is Gwen was trying to make Nicole look older when she took her to the hospital, why did Nicole keep her hair in braids? Braids! That'll make her look older!

"If" for "Is" above.

No way was Tuesday’s episode one of the better ones. For me the Pippin one was the least impressive.

I thought Tuesday's coughing/Camille episode, with the unnecessary rehash of the stripper scene and Fosse-as-Lenny, was the weakest one yet.

Thinking back to ATJ, one of the nicest things about it was his relationship with his daughter, perhaps the only non Toxic relationship he had with a female. That's totally out in this series. Since Nicole was a producer, I guess she's saying that this is the way it really was, not the sugar coated version in the movie.

The thing is, though, Keith Gordon DID look like a young Bob Fosse. The problem was that Roy Scheider looked nothing like Bob Fosse (except for the dinosaur leather skin).

[quote] But even Rockwell's look is wrong, beginning with the bald head and gross and distracting comb-over.

The photo in the OP is from how Fosse looked in the 60s.

Here's Fosse in the 70s--he indeed had a bald head and a gross and distracting comb-over:

Another photo of Fosse in the 70s: bald, with a gross and distracting comb-over:

I know I will probably get grief for this. I just watched the episode. I love Michelle Williams, I think she's doing Emmy-worthy work and is probably the only reason I'm still with the show. BUT.... as Gwen is getting older, it seems like Williams' voice and mannerisms are teetering in the direction of Ruth Gordon territory. I just couldn't help but think that.

Anybody else?

I felt the same way watching Tuesday's episode R508. Not necessarily thinking Ruth Gordon, but this was the first episode where Michelle didn't lose herself in the character. You could really see the effort. It felt put on.

The new older daughter looks like an albino Addams Family child.

Did anyone ever once tell Fosse to stop fuckin' smoking? Jeez.

[quote]s Gwen is getting older, it seems like Williams' voice and mannerisms are teetering in the direction of Ruth Gordon territory. I just couldn't help but think that.

Gwen's voice did get even weirder as she aged ... just watch an old Magnum P.I. episode.

R508. I agree. I couldn't put my finger on why I was not as taken with Williams as I usually am. I thought maybe I was getting tired of that odd vibrato voice, but I think she did put it on a little thicker. I can see her acting, whereas before I was totally hooked on her. Maybe it was a fluke, because she is otherwise fantastic in this. And I can't believe how bad Rockwell is.

R506 Fosse had enough hair on the back of his head and side to have been a good candidate for a hair transplant. It would have looked a lot better than a comb-over.

Didn’t you know, R508? Williams will be playing both Mia Farrow and Ruth Gordon in a film set behind the scenes on the set of Rosemia’s Boo Boo. With Benedict Cumberbatch as Roman Polanski.

I hope you didn't hurt yourself coming up with that, R514.

Fuck you, R515. Go jerk off to your iPad pics of Gavin Creel. Blocking you will give me tremendous pleasure.

Why discuss which episode is better or worse in this series? It's like arguing the merits and glories of The Blonde in the Thunderbird vs. Moose Murders.

Well.....with one we got Take Back Your Mink and with the other we almost got Eve.

R519 With Eve markedly lucking out over poor Frank Loesser.

I feel like the reason Michelle's performance in this last episode is not as successful is because she hasn't been given very much of interest to do.

The show isn't of much interest, all of it. Michelle Williams can act and do a voice. That's about it. Also, I guess Nicole Fosse hated her parents.

I really didn’t know that Nicole #1 and Nicole #2 weren’t played by the same girl so that was good casting. Nicole #3 is horrible casting.

Should we refer to Nicole #3 as Fake Nicole?

Or Faux Nicole?

Which Nicole sang I Guess I’ll Miss the Man?

Nicole #2

When preparing for her role, Bianca Marroquin was asked if she met Chita Rivera. " I’ve known her for years and I reached out. I said, “Chita, this just happened to me. I need your blessing and I need to pick your brain.” She was flying a lot to London to do concerts and it didn’t work out. She reached out the day of the premiere and said, “I’m very excited to see you. It’s your turn to shine.”

Well, so far Marroquin has been underwhelming as Chita.

Marroquin wasn't exactly given a lot to do in the last underwhelming episode.

She sang quite a lot of “All That Jazz.” She made it sound like a reasonable facsimile of Chita’s rendition but she’s not distinctive in any way.

As a performer, Chita verges on parody. That weird nasally inflection to her singing should be easy to mimic but trying to show the woman, who is a beautiful person, that will be impossible for this series.

Marroquin looks more like that bitch who played Morales in the film of A Chorus Line than Chita.

R533, you say that as if it's a bad thing.

Two days until the penultimate Fosse/Verdon episode!

I wonder how it will end.

[quote]I wonder how it will end.

[bold]SPOILER ALERT:[/bold] he dies of a heart attack.

And Nicole ends up in the film of A Chorus Line, which is the ultimate betrayal in her father’s eyes.

I wonder which scenario they will show for Fosse's death - he and Gwen alone in the street or was it a park?, or her frantically pushing back the crowd around them and shouting for a doctor?

[quote]SPOILER ALERT: he dies of a heart attack.

Has there been any foreshadowing of this?

[quote]Has there been any foreshadowing of this?

If you know who Bob Fosse was you know he died of a heart attack on the opening night of the "Chicago" revival, so...no.

I think R541 was pulling your leg...

Actually, it was the revival of Sweet Charity, oh sneering know it all.

They'll probably have Bob die, then an angel version of him will come out showing all the lightness, humor and fun he was supposed to be alongside all the shitside this docudrama has left out. A number of people actually enjoyed working with Fosse and said some nice things about him, but the writers gave Sam Rockwell nothing but dark, dark, dark to play.

The camera will pull back back back on the image of a dead Fosse in Gwen's arms. She will scream Nooooo! Then they will cut to Nicole on stage saying This is Nicole Fosse Verdon.

R546 ,,,,,,,,"The camera will pull back back back on the image of a dead Fosse in Gwen's arms. She will scream Nooooo! Then they will cut to Nicole".........who deadpans to camera, "Now, I shall destroy their reputations as Mummy and daddy destroyed my dreams by making me 2 feet too short to be a dancer, THOSE DRUNK FUCKS"

who in a Norman bates way looks straight to camera and sneers " I shall

This whole series feels like it was put together by a High School Drama Club.

"I wonder how it will end."

In tears!

Jazz hands!

With a surprise cameo by Jessica Lange as the Angel of Death, who in this version resembles Joan Crawford.

The way Bob Fosse has been portrayed I don't even want to see a Sam Rockwell full-frontal (which he's done in the past), though when this channel mentioned nudity in an episode or two, the nudity was hardly anything at all.

[quote] I wonder how it will end.

With a whimper.

[quote]I wonder how it will end.

With a major DL bitchfest.

True dat.

There's two more episodes, Nowadays and Providence. The first is described as "Gwen fights to assert her own creative vision on Chicago, challenging Bob's increasingly dark approach to the musical. " The last as "Gwen looks ahead to an uncertain future, as Bob tells the story of his life on film. "

Maybe they were expecting this to be such a ratings bonanza that they figured to leave a little for a second season.

Based on what we've seen so far, they could easily stretch Big Deal into a four episode snoozefest.

[quote] "Gwen fights to assert her own creative vision on Chicago, challenging Bob's increasingly dark approach to the musical. "

So I guess we can look forward to more darkness from Sam-as-Bob.

Fosse was happy to see Nicole get ACL, I guess similar to when he asked Michael Bennett to give his first wife Mary Ann Niles a job in "Ballroom". He's often said he would have directed the movie of ACL if asked, which is ironic since Cy Feurer, producer of Cabaret, also produced ACL. Like Cabaret, it would have been his chance to claim the property as his own, which would have been his ultimate revenge on Bennett.

R560 is why Fosse was crowned has-been of the year at that year's Tony Awards. Sweet Charity got best revival and Big Deal only got Best Choreography. Fosse said he didn't like working with writers and this number shows it. You see all the distinctive Fosse mannerisms but what is the number about? Who are the characters? There is no meaning or story through movement the way there was during Rich Man's Frug. Although it was also part of the depletion of talented dancers on Broadway, the dancers aren't as individual as they were before. Cilento and Davis were good as was Candace Tovar but your eye doesn't really get pulled anywhere else.

^^OR - seeing as it's F/X - it'll be Jessica Lange re-creating Angelique from All That Jazz!

AHS: Fosse/Verdon

R562 Nicole, please get the facts of your fathers career correct before shit talking about him online

That Big Deal number is amazing and holds up 33 years after.

Bianca Marroquin says of Michelle "She is the most disciplined, focused performer. When she was given a note, she would say, “Coming right up, with a side of fries.” Did she used to work at McDonald's?

R528, I live in London and I don't remember any Chita Rivera concerts in the last few years...

There is no one listed in the final episode as playing Roy Scheider so I guess they don't go down the rabbit hole after all. I was really looking forward to scenes of Rockwell as Fosse directing someone as Roy Scheider as Fosse and Michelle as Gwen watching someone as Leland Palmer as Gwen, etc.

Oh well.

The white featured dancer in the Big Deal clip hopped out of all his turns, even when doing the simplest of double turns.

R567, there was already the moment where Verdon sees Palmer in the Pippin rehearsals and they wave at each other. That's the extent of their interaction in this series, although Palmer was essentially playing Verdon in Pippin.

[quote] The white featured dancer in the Big Deal clip hopped out of all his turns, even when doing the simplest of double turns.

You mean Tony winning dancer/choreographer Wayne Cilento?

Yes. Sorry but he did. It’s right there on video, there’s no denying it.

Violento was a strong - dancer with great kicks but I guess turning was not his thing.

Cilento

R567, that would be interesting, since this entire series is a long sloggy ripoff of that film.

[quote] Yes. Sorry but he did. It’s right there on video, there’s no denying it.

I saw him hop out of exactly one turn, and it was on a wide shot.

I didn’t get why we saw a male dancer with long hair during Chicago rehearsals unless that will be a plot point in tomorrow’s episode.

It probably will be. Anything to keep from telling an actual story.

It's a plot point. The long hair kept him hopping out of his turns, so Fosse made him get a buzz cut.

The long-haired chorus boy in the Chicago rehearsal was as disorienting as the two (TWO!) black female dancers, when we all know there was ever only one.

True, R580. And, to the best of my knowledge, there wasn’t an Asian-American male dancer in the original company, either.

Chris Vo hadn't been invented yet, r581.

In the new episode Aya Cash returns as Joan Simon.

r489 - Indeed. Hell hath no fury like a pissed off Debbie Allen. Or her sister Phylicia Rasheendawanda Allen.

Does Melisandre bring her back from the dead, r583?

Penultimate episode tonight. Not a lot of time left for this series to redeem itself.

I've been enjoying it. Never realized how large both their bodies of work were.

It's not a good show.

I sucks so bad I wish I were watching "Big Deal"

Maybe you could turn off the channel. Just don't hop out of it.

A friend of mine said she played the “script girl” in the episode concerning Children! Children! I told her there’s no such thing as a script girl in plays and there never were. She said she was listed as such on the call sheet. Another thing this show got wrong. It should have listed her as an assistant stage manager.

[quote]I saw him hop out of exactly one turn, and it was on a wide shot.

You need to watch it again.

^^ and neither of those times were wide shots - the two guys were dancing by themselves and the camera was on them ^^

Whatever, dear. You're the type that always has to be right and I don't indulge that shit.

Feeling superior now with that tired snide answer r594? Hope you do, despite your lack of point or wit: Anyway, I was just pointing out a nerdy technicality, sort of like internet geeks notice trivial flaws in movie shots - you can take it or leave it, I’ll live.

Nah, I just perused your other posts and I decided there's no point in talking to you.

The script girl, on a musical is not the assistant stage manager, she's the dramaturgette.

Thank God it’s nearly over. They took the parts of his life I did care about a totally glossed over them in favor of showing a tortured genius dancing awkwardly with his Oscar at Studio 54.

Ehh, if you’ve seen Cabaret and All the Jazz you know all of his tricks anyway.

The man was a snake.....

Bajour! well, Chita starred in that!