The medieval era

Disease, filth, and death.

Duh. Ate here and got blown in the men's room.

Pussies stank.

It was a Keto diet. Rats were street food. Sex was fully clothed.

It wasn't as bad as one might think, but I would not want to live then. If you had money, e.g., merchant class or better, you did ok and lived a rather long life.. Sorry, if you were merchant class or better *and male*, you did OK. If you were female, you had a good chance of dying in childbirth.

They ate a lot of fish because the church calendar. There were over 200 days a year that the church required one to eat fish. Meals would have been rather boring as they pretty much ate what was in season and grown withing a 5 mile radius. Yes, the Hanseatic League and other trading groups brought spices and dried fish, but their wares were expensive. Soups and stews were the main meal as they could be cooked over an open fire.

The well-to-do were not as unclean as we think. They may not have had an immersion regularly, but they changed their "underclothes" often. There have actually been studies on this and it is more hygienic than bathing often, but wearing undergarments for a long period of time. They did do daily sponge baths and tooth care was not unknown.

Their healthcare system was a little bit lacking.

Big S&M freaks, major Henry III supporters

Life was brutal and filled with the constant threat of death.

If you were part of the lowers classes, your diet was not very exciting -- grain and legume soups, gruel, with a slice of stale bread to wash dip into it. No spices. No refrigeration.

R9 they had lots of fat pieces to enjoy in their soups also.

STDs and crabs galore

I think the Church was omnipresent and omnipotent.

I don’t think they wiped properly.

No trimmed bushes whatsoever!

Rimming was a mess.

“People in the Middle Ages took great care over cleanliness – except the clergy, who accepted filth as a sign of devotion.”

Always wanted to go to a Medieval Times. Weird I know.

Presenting hole was more difficult back then with all of their clothes.

Can you imagine the encrusted asscracks?

Or the petticoat-smothered poontang in summer?

The early Christian monarchs after the Moors keep a lot of advanced islamic lifestyle, design, culture. Lovely palaces and mosque, new but mixed influence, or converted palaces and mosques. Palm trees, sunshine, good food, fabulous. Then the Middle Ages, Inquisition, put an end to all the fun.

[quote] Rimming was a mess.

Not surprisingly, it was closely associated with being a follower of the Devil.

Elizabeth I suffered from lead poisoning due to all the lead-based makeup she caked on her face.

OP, your thread should read, "Eldergays, what was life like in the medieval era?"

People who could afford it ate lots of meats, either stewed or slow-roasted over a fire. People who've re-created medieval methods of slow-roasting meats over open flames say that the joints and roasts come out incredibly tender and flavorful, better than today's oven-baked roasts.

Before forks came into fashion, people ate with a spoon or a knife, depending on what was being served. Historians said that to eat roast meat with a knife you brought your hunk of meat up to your mouth and bit in, and sawed it off close to your mouth so you could chew. This was considered to be much more genteel than just biting off chunks.

They had fat, salt, acid, and heat. Doesn't take more than that to prepare a delicious meal. Herbs as well. Spices came later but you can live without those.

Oh and about 2/3rds of medieval Europe died of the plague, covered in painful boils.

Herbs were everywhere. Just see "GoT". Lots of poisoning.

Sex was probably disgusting and disease-riddled.

If you were fortunate to live in a castle, you went potty in a garderobe, with chutes that dumped its contents into a cesspit or moat.

Like it is now, R28??

MeToo accusers were not believed.

Food was still pretty regional, so for Italy, lots of polenta made like this.

R32 I'm Italian/Sicilian and have never had polenta. It looks like shit to me.

R32, corn was native to *North America*. It did not exist in Europe during the Medieval era, nor did tomatoes for that matter.

R34, polenta is made from cornmeal nowadays, but back then, they used barley, farro, millet. Without spices, I doubt it was very flavorful then.

....

[quote]Pussies stank.

THIS.

You could smell the women from miles away. Wonder if they had fraus?

R38 I’d say yes.

Hoodies were hugely popular with the youth.

I wish I had a time machine.

The sex clubs were awesome.

R41 W&W

SMEGMA!!!!

[quote]Pussies stank.

Not MINE, thank you very much! Mine smelled of lavender with a hint of palmarosa. One of my first beaux, Bertrand du Guesclin, introduced me to the scent after one of his forays into the Languedoc. It drove him absolutely mad with desire whenever he'd enter my bedchambers. Ah, sweet memories!

I was just thinking about this the other day — not necessarily medieval times, but certainly pre-1800s. We’ve become so accustomed to healing our pains or ailments by taking a pill. They just had to suffer through it.

The top 1% seemed to live in rather luxurious-looking homes, far removed from the unwashed hoi polloi.

Spanking for sexual gratification was strictly forbidden by the Church.

I’ll bet lesbianism was popular while men were away fighting battles.

Diaper fetishism was a big no no.

You could buy a hot twink from his parents for a few rabbits or a goat!

I wish I had a time machine.

Their Instagram accounts were fabulous. Only the the hottest whores with ripped abs.

People were covered in lice and they stank. They didn't even clean their teeth except to chew on branches. There wee mice living in the straw mattresses that they slept on and rats wandered around freely. They had their livestock in their houses. Yes. Pigs, goats, chickens were all kept indoors at night. Most people didn't have herds of animals so the two or three they had shared the house . The ones with thatched roofs and vermin living in them too. They ate squirrels and rabbits.

Gay medieval relations looked something like this.

R54, CHARMING!

There was no syphilis yet

No potatoes, tomatoes, bell peppers, Chile peppers, corn, vanilla, chocolate, beans, avocado, peanuts, pecans, cashews, squash, quinine, blueberries, pineapple, onions, papaya, tomatillo.

We had mead R57!

The poor plastered the walls of their hovels with cow shit. Imagine the smell.

Speak for yourself R57!

No chocolate = almost as bad as bubonic plague

Lots of places to fuck in the great outdoors.

But if you got caught they'd stick a red hot poker up your ass.

But if you like that sort of thing, it was worth it.

One reason some dogs have bobbed tails today is because some king passed a decree that any dog with a long tail would be taxed, so owners cut their dog's tails short to avoid the tax.

I read once that the fish they ate was only freshwater fish. Until they overfished their freshwater fish. Then they went after salt water fishes. I can’t verify.

Europe went through a warming phase in Roman times and again around 1000.

I love the scene in “A Lion in Winter”, where the king awakes, then breaks the ice in the wash bowl with his hand. A clever reminder of something that couldn’t otherwise be captured on film, that it was fuckin cold, even for the King.

I understand this is why the rich had beds with enveloping curtains - to keep the heat in.

R61- No chocolate, but they must have had some form of a dessert? I was thinking ice cream but how would they make ice? Could they make a type of Jello?

We'd occasionally hear about the wretched dingleberry infested stinky barbarians in the primitive countries in the underdeveloped West.

The poor actually ate healthier than the rich, they grew their own vegetables which the rich found to be beneath them. They also ate fruit grown on trees.

R66, they were big on red velvet cupcakes -- a little bit of pig's blood for the coloring. Not sure what they used for frosting and sprinkles.

R66, Actually, ice cream goes back to Roman times. There were a lot of milk puddings. Cakes with honey and dried fruit. Marzipan was popular.

R34, what about me?

The indigenous tribes of South America were much more developed as civilizations at the time. I once read an article in The Atlantic that reported on a poll amongst historians; the majority would have preferred to have lived in South America over Europe during in that era.

Part of the reason the Church was so important was that it was an escape from drab living. They didn’t have the entertainment we have today.

Didn't they have midgets performing to entertain them?

I understand some First Nation settlements has a greater population than some major cities of Europe, before Columbus. Smallpox and other diseases killed a lot of them, and then their society broke down because too many crucial people died. There is a theoretical limit to the number of people that can die before societal collapse.

I don’t know when Pewter plates became popular for the rich, but it contains lead which is a poison. Likewise, the water pipes in Rome contained lead, too.

Year 500 to 1500, approx.

Europe was not a cat-friendly environment because they thought cats were associated with witchcraft or Satan, and such. They might have avoided the worst of the plagues if there were cats around to kill the rats, that carried the fleas that carried the bubonic plague.

I once saw a movie where the Pope and his advisors were trying to determine the cause of the plague. One blamed the Jews, haha. The cinema Pope dismissed that, since the Jews were getting sick, too.

They all bought Madonna's first album, but had nothing to play it on.

"No chocolate, but they must have had some form of a dessert?"

No chocolate, vanilla, or refrigeration in summer, so desserts tended to involve fruit, honey, butter, eggs, and pastry. Cakes and pie crust existed. Fruits were also used to flavor meats, just like today's turkey with cranberry sauce.

Citrus fruits were considered rare and expensive treats in northern Europe and England, as they had to be imported from countries nearer the Med.

I'm thinking the poor must have had better teeth than the rich. Sugar is the main source of cavity decay and the poor wouldn't have been able to afford anything like that.

That business about “kill them all, let God sort them out., was real. IIRC, A bishop in Spain found a town divided, with both sides accusing the other of heresy, and this was his solution.

Roman Emperors had runners bring ice from mountaintops.

R79, At least they bought my albums, Cher.

Cher still had her original face when William I conquered England.

R35, they had Parmigiano-Reggiano to put in their polenta.

Ice cream was only known in Italy and wasn’t introduced in Northern Europe until Catherine de Medici became Queen of France. Part of her dowery was a chef who knew how to make ice cream.

R57, it’s been a long-held belief that syphilis was brought over by Columbus but that’s untrue. They have found corpses from before 1492 which were syphilic. Of course, the Vikings were in North America 400 years before Columbus so that’s probably how it came over. There is a very good Nova episode in PBS all about this

All this recent talk about "Flying Buttresses" on the news ..... makes me hot.

If I had to choose between being an English peasant in the 13th century and a member of the English urban underclass in the 19th century I'd rather take my chances in the former.

"I'm thinking the poor must have had better teeth than the rich."

Oh yes! I think it was during the Elizabethan era that people dyed their teeth black, because only the rich could afford lots of sugar and having shitty teeth meant you were rich enough to eat your teeth away.

One of the biggest differences between the ancient world and our own was the lack of medical care. People died all the time and at any age, from anything and everything, even a little cut could turn septic and kill you. That's why the religion of the era was so heavy on death and what happened after, death was ever present in everyone's life, as was the fear of death.

Their circuit parties were notorious. Tripping on magic mushrooms and thumping all night to pan-flute music.

Not me, I'd go with the 1800's. I figure, the very wealthy had huge houses and estates. I could live up in the attic and figure out how to steal food easily.

The Victorian era was a miserable existence for all but the wealthy.

So are most eras, R92. Like this one.

At least wine was available and consumed in the southern parts of the continent.

Just think. Every one of us is related to someone who live during that time.

Well, maybe not on the same area of the planet but somewhere.

[quote]Roman Emperors had runners bring ice from mountaintops.

The Roman Empire was long gone during medieval times.

The men were good looking and uncut but dead by 30.

R28 some things never change.

Even the wealthiest in ANY era or century were not immune or protected from ignorance. In the 19th century, for instance, Victorian wallpaper and clothing of the rich and middle classes were dyed using arsenic, which had a lovely jewel-toned green color. But it poisoned people to death in countless numbers. And it took a long time for the source of the poison to be discovered.

Men in medieval times were serious about their beards.

[quote] A beard in the Middle Ages, the beard became a symbol of a knight's honor. Therefore, touching another man's beard without permission was grounds for a duel. Over time in Europe, a clean-shaven face became the preferred style.

Yes, R101, Richard the Lion Heart relied greatly on Berengaria to cover for him when he went to "visit" Saladin...

R102, lol!

The martinis were literally dirty.

[quote]One reason some dogs have bobbed tails today is because some king passed a decree that any dog with a long tail would be taxed, so owners cut their dog's tails short to avoid the tax.

Are those dogs still alive today? I don't think you understand how biology works.

They literally eat ancient grains and heirloom vegetables, so according to our standards they had healthy diets. Though, they died of the Syphilis, such a pity.

R63, close, but not quite. Traditionally, hunting and working dogs' tails were docked to prevent injury on the field. Then in the late 18th century, the English Parliament placed a heavy tax on the ownership of dogs to help finance their numerous wars. Working dogs, however, were exempt from taxation, which led to tax cheats docking their family pets' tails to show that they were working dogs. Despite the dog tax being lifted years later, tail docking continued on on certain breeds for health and cosmetic purposes.

What did they use for lube?

Horse shit and sheep placenta

Men wore tights, slippers and codpieces , nuff said

Hunny, they were diseased from the rats and the mice and the filthy water. They got the plague and they got the cholera and the Black Death, and women died giving birth 9 out of 10 times, and the men had crabs and vermin living in their nether regions, and the crack of their asses stank to high heaven. people lost their teeth and eventually died by their late 30's. They never wore clean clothes. Basic hygiene was non existent. But yes, ancient grains and heirloom veggies were part of the diet. It was also very protein heavy.And all the physical exertion helped them stay lean.

Link to mortality rate?

I think they typically kept their teeth, as evidenced by skeletons.

The ancestors of mine I’ve researched, in a later period but still before modern medicine, often lived into their 60s. I have at least three who died before 1700 who were over 80. I think that more than half of my ancestors in the line I know the most about lived to over 60. So, I think there is something to it when you hear that low life expectancy stats are due to averaging-in children who died. But once someone reached adulthood, their main risk factors, other than motherhood, were behind them.

Condoms were used but they were made of animal bladders and intestines. Lovely..

NO COFFEE

NO TEA

CONSTANT MIGRAINES

Big families 9 or 10 kids was common. Married off at 12 or 13 if you were female and you were considered an old hag by 20. Also the Witchcraft Trials were aplenty so it sucked if you were a Mid-wife, pagan or pissed of your neighbour

R116 were eldergays wearing caftans frequently accused of being witches?

R117 I imagine they were actually among the witch hunting mob, hissing malevolently. .

R105 doesn't know what "bobbed tail" means.

As for the horrors mentioned above, most people actually married in their late teens or twenties, only nobles or royals married off kids as 12 or 13. They didn't give a rat's ass about the welfare of their children, they pushed the kids into arranged marriages the minute they hit puberty (or before), because of whatever financial or political gains it meant for the parents. Peasants actually married later than rich people!

And the heyday of the witch trials came after the Medieval period, the worst excesses therein took place from the 1500s to the 1700s.

Everyone spoke in iambic pentameter and chewed parsley for bad breath. The rich wore perfume to cover up their odor and carried lapdogs so that their fleas would jump on the dogs

"Link to mortality rate? "

100%. They're all dead.

They actually did have bathhouses.

I took a tour of a castle in Ireland. Points to remember --- virtually no bathing, eating greasy meats and rubbing the grease in your hair and over your body to retain heat, and pooping in a stone toilet.

In the 1970s I had a college prof in his 50s who told us that his grandmother remembered at age 13 being sent out of the house to sit on the stone stair. She'd started her period 2 days earlier and her parents were interviewing families whose son she might marry. She was introduced to a boy and married to him when she was 14. Girls had to be married off ASAP when they started their periods. They could be raped by anyone -- soldiers passing through, rich men, bandits, Cossacks -- and become pregnant. If a girl became pregnant before marriage, she was ruined. Once she was married, things were OK. Even if she was raped by soldiers after marriage, that was ok; she could have & keep the baby.

not that bad, read up on it, it will improve your mind

It's thought that Wm Shakespeare's son may have died of bubonic plague. At the time he died, one third of children didn't make it to 10 years old.

No douching. No rimming. No blowing. Lots of anal surprise.

R124 What country?

Fartleberries be the enemy of rascally fellows.

Peasants belonged to an estate. They didn't have the right to just walk away. They had to give a big portion of what they produced (farmed) to the lord, and to the church (as a kind of tax/rent/tithe) . Very few owned animals. Most were punished severely for poaching game on the estate of the lord. So meat was VERY uncommon in the diet of a peasant. The lord and his family could (and did) eat a lot of meat, except during church mandated fasts, which were about 200 days a year. (Lent, Advent, all Fridays, some other saints' days and feast days). The peasant diet consisted of oats, rye, wheat (bread), peas porridge for protein, which was dried peas boiled (basically split pea soup). bits of vegetables, probably mostly wild ones, like dandelion greens, nuts, if there were nut trees such as hazelnuts or walnuts, although these would not have been plentiful, and herbs, eggs (if they could find them in the nests of birds), fish (if they lived near a stream that had fish), probably boiled all together, since it would be rare to own more than one cooking utensil. Famines and crop failures were common, and many peasants starved to death over the ages. Food storage was primitive, and probably rats and mice fouled or hauled off many of the grains they stored to survive the winter and spring. Not a great time for our ancestors.

Most people couldn't read or write. Sunday mass was their television. They'd go to the pretty church, smell the incense, watch the priest transform a piece of bread into the body of Christ. You went to confession on Saturday so you could get communion. After your confession, the priest gave you penance -- say Theee Hail Marys, the our father and the act of contrition and your sins will be forgiven. So you got your sins cleared out on Saturday and had communion on Sunday, which put you in a state of grace. So you could live it up during the week but be in a state of grace by Sunday evening.

People said prayers several times a day, like Muslims do. All Catholics said the angelus on awakening, at 12 noon and at 6pm. The 12 noon fire whistle many of us here in our towns every day has its time determined by the angelus. Churches used to ring their bells at noon so farmers in the field could hear that it was time to pray. When fire whistles were developed,they chose 12 noon to test the alarm at the same times church bells rang.

The still say the angelus on an Irish tv station every day.

[quote] The peasant diet consisted of oats, rye, wheat (bread), peas porridge for protein, which was dried peas

Don't forget suet. Peasants had suet for fat. It was used in Christmas puddings as early as the 1400s.

The angelus on RTE

There was no cable.

what the hell did they use for social media?

R135 Forget about Tweets. They were too busy raping and pillaging.

R110 - 15th century men's fashion was quite sexy

The English had "mummers plays" where travelling actors went from town to town performing scenes from the bible. The townsfolk would get involved. However i read that the plays would end up being a satire of the Town with people impersonating their neighbours and revealing gossip in the guise playing a character in tje bible. Also London had the annual Bartholamew Fair, which apparently lasted for a week or so and involved some rowdy behaviour. Whores and pickpockets used to make the most of the crowds. The fair ended in the 19th century when it became too disruptive.

[quote] The Roman Empire was long gone during medieval times.

What am I, chopped liver?!

[quote] The English had "mummers plays" where travelling actors went from town to town performing scenes from the bible.

Did this song play while they performed?

R137 - In Florence young men whose leggings were deemed to be too tight and revealing were publicly flogged.

It really depended on the region of Europe and how big, small, prosperous or poor that place was. Personally if I had to choose, and being royalty or high nobility was not an option, I would definitely not choose to live in a big city like Paris or London, they were very filthy but in a small town. Small towns were much cleaner, peasants usually went to the, generally clean, rivers to bathe. Also one of the things I like about that era is that sickness and death was pretty much for everyone. It didnt matter if you were a peasant or a king. No ammount of money could save you back then.

They understood death back then. Life was held cheap and death was always present. I bet they valued their lives much more than we in the 21st century, who expect it to go on forever.

R142 the water must have been FREEZING, and heating it up would have been a big ordeal, especially if you were sick, disabled, or older.

If any of our eldergay Dataloungers ever got to examine the young men's leggings and decide which ones got a flogging, give us ALL the details!

I was one of those people, R145. It was an arduous task.

My bastard son was so dumb I had to donate a building to University of Bologna to get him in. When they threatened to throw him out, I named him Duke of Parma so they couldn't.

Your Holiness, did your bastard son wear provocatively tight leggings?

The medieval diet was much healthier and more natural than what we eat today, there was no obesity, opioid addiction or the levels of mental illness afflicting the 21st century. It makes me wonder if we really are any better off than our ancestors.

R158 He was a big boy like his father. He had his brand - lamb skin condoms and Almoravid haschich. Wasn't so dumb about money.

"It makes me wonder if we really are any better off than our ancestors."

In some ways we are, but in many we aren't. Their food was more nutritious due to the soil not being overworked. They also had community and family, in a way that doesn't exist anymore.

R151 Not to mention our crappy genetically modified food, processed foods laden with preservatives and high-fructose corn syrup, produce sprayed with pesticides and picked before it's ripe.

Yes but you could die because of a cavity, so...

I don't know, you could die early of something now easily treated, but was life better quality then or now? With the stress, lack of family, community, and all that entails, I suspect they had the advantage in quality of life.

Oldest European Medieval Cookbook Found

Some of the recipes sound like what you would in modern cookbooks.

They had a weird notion that if a baby was allowed to crawl it would develop as an animal, not a human. Crawling was absolutely not allowed. Babies either were put in chairs with wheels or in harnesses that were hung from the ceiling.

Cradles were narrow so the baby could not turn over. They had some concept of crib death.

Their diets were not better than ours today. Even the wealthy had a very limited diet based on what was in season and what was available locally. Some fruits and vegetables were dried or otherwise preserved, but at any given time, the selection of foods was limited. Also, there were a lot of superstitions regarding foods. Other foods were either not considered digestible and were either not eaten at all or cooked for so long as to make their nutritional value non-existant.

Generally, the recipes in a cookbook would only be used for special occasions, they are not an indication of everyday meals or the standard diet.

I saw a recipe in a book about medieval cooking that had a plump pheasant cooked, then when done, the uncooked skin with feathers intact was placed back on the bird for presentation. Repulsive, even taking into consideration that they knew nothing of bacteria and germs, it's still disgusting.

"Their diets were not better than ours today."

Other than the rich, they weren't eating tons of sugar like people do today. Their diets weren't as varied, but the food wasn't chemical ladden empty calorie junk. The earth they grew it in gave it nutrients, unlike today.

FYI: Some of you have absolutely no idea when Europe's medieval period was. It ran for 1000 years, from the 400's to the 1400's. The Dark Ages were part of it. After the fall of Rome until the Renaissance. The MIddle East & Asia were far more enlightened and civilized than Europe. In Particular with regard to medicine and hygiene. Of course Christianity did a lot to hold civilization back....It was an era where "witches" were burned at the stake, where superstition rules the land, where they bled people to cure them of illness and had no idea water and insects carried illnesses.

It was called the Futile Ages for a reason, Rose.

Powdered wigs were made of animal fat and it was considered rude to point out the cockroaches crawling around in it.

People carried cockroaches in their wigs for snacks, R161. Or sometimes it was their pet cockroach.

Tori Amos was peaking.

R159, not entirely true. They had a notion that animals and insects carried illness. As someone mentioned up thread, cats were blamed for the plague. Unfortunately, getting rid of cats, did not help the rat population. Also, they had a vestigial notion of the germ theory in that they thought "vapors" carried disease. As you pointed out, what we call the Medieval period lasted 1,000 years. It is really difficult to generalize about a 1,000 year time frame. And, as you probably well know, bleeding was a common medical practice into the 1900s.

What did they eat? Smegna soufflés!

I know it was mentioned upthread somewhere about the pre-contact Americas. Modern researchers estimate upwards of ninety percent of the indigenous peoples were wiped out throughout the entire continent within the first one hundred years of colonisation after wave after wave of epidemics devastated the native population.

No diversity!!

Everyone was short and stupid. Average male was like 5’7 , no thanks.

The Islamic world was the center of civilization back then, places like Baghdad, Alexandria and Cordoba in Islamic Spain.

They were inventing algebra and studying science while the Europeans were all about the Church and alchemy

There were significant advanced civilizations in India and China too.

There was a Darwinian element to medieval times. The people with the strongest most-disease resistant DNA were the ones who lived long enough to procreate and those with weaker genes were killed off. Brutal, but in the long run it made for a physically healthier species.

Families had lots of children because so many of them didn't make it through to adulthood.

That's probably one of the greatest shifts of modern times, even from a psychological POV--people are not losing siblings and offspring the way they did back then.

[quote]They'd go to the pretty church, smell the incense

When I was an alter boy in the 80s the old priest at our church told me one of the reasons incense was introduced it mass was because people smelled so bad in centuries past they would stink up the church. The incense helped a bit.

Medieval Europe was basically a cesspool until the Renaissance happened and people rediscovered the culture of the ancient Romans and Greeks, and made rapid advancements in civilization.

"people are not losing siblings and offspring the way they did back then."

Tee-hee! That's what you think!

How can anyone be seriously asking if these were better times? So there were less people eating at Mcdonalds, but really? In terms of health, living prospects, education etc there is no better time than the present

It sounds like paradise.

That’s not true, r170. The Islamic world - specifically the Abbasid Caliphate - had a certain flowering of interest in science, mathematics, and medicine. However, contrary to popular belief, most of their knowledge was based on translations of ancient Roman and Greek texts that had been preserved and transcribed into Arabic. The only thing they gave to the world was the reintroduction of that knowledge into the West that helped to found the enlightenment. Moreover, algebra and the concept of zero had their earliest origins in ancient Indian texts, and were only brought to the rest of the world after the huge destruction of the Muslim conquest of the India.

"The medieval diet was much healthier and more natural than what we eat today, there was no obesity, opioid addiction or the levels of mental illness afflicting the 21st century."

Food was much more expensive and harder to acquire, many people were undernourished or starved, only a filthy rich person like Henry VIII could become obese.

As for obesity and metal illness, well, opioids weren't available but I shudder to think what the rates of alcoholism were like, when those who could afford it drank wine or beer at every meal instead of water! And as for mental illness, well, how long do you think a person with a disabling mental illness could live in a world where the poor and unlucky were constantly threatened with death from minor illnesses or starvation? If a person was schizophrenic either their family cared for a useless dependent as long as they could, and if they were turned out they were damn lucky to if they were accepted as a village idiot and not a beggar who got found frozen in a ditch the first cold winter as a vagabond.

When I was in university back in the early eighties one of my prof's said the greatest invention was soap. That was long before the Donnie Darko clip linked below.

[quote] R149: The medieval diet was much healthier and more natural than what we eat today, there was no obesity, opioid addiction or the levels of mental illness afflicting the 21st century.

Pope Alexander’s son, Diego, I think it was, was an opium addict.

I can’t vouch for the applicable time period, but for much of Western history, the only options for widows were: immolation on their husbands funeral pyre; the convent; to be cared for by adult children, if any; prostitution; or begging. This is thought to be why some religions advocated that brothers marry their widowed sister in laws.

In early American colonial times, people were not marrying in their teens. They actually needed permission to marry before 18, but most seem to have been marrying around 24 to 28. I know that’s not medieval times, but I don't know why it would differ. My impression is that this idea that people married a decade earlier strikes me as coming from 19th century Midwest farming communities, but I don’t know. Would like to see some hard data or at least some links to trustworthy-looking sources of completely unknown reliability.

My 10th Great Grandmother, who was a big floozy in her day, was willed a rental cottage for the remainder of her days when she was 80, by her bachelor friend. She had adult children as a widow so I’m guessing that’s how she survived. Her husband had been murdered and scandal just hung over her, her whole life.

blanc mange, blanc mange everywhere

So much talking out of your asses...

R180

You forgot remarrying

R176 It goes even further.

In Ancient Egpyt we have scrolls that appear to demonstrate calculus.

That's 4000 years before Newton introduced it to society at large

To paraphrase Peter Griffin "I can't wait to make love to you hundred and hundreds of years before the invention of toilet paper"

One of the things that they did was to stick hot enemas made of certain herbs and spices up their asses to realign the four humours. The French court Doctor of Henry VIII would administer this remedy to the king on a regular basis in order to treat his piles, boils, and excessive flatulence.

"I can’t vouch for the applicable time period, but for much of Western history, the only options for widows were: immolation on their husbands funeral pyre; the convent; to be cared for by adult children, if any; prostitution; or begging."

Actually, during the Middle Ages, in much of Europe a widow automatically inherited one-third of her husband's estate. This was called "Widow's Thirds". It was assumed that after the widow's death the estate would revert to her sons, although then as now remarriage must have complicated matters of inheritance.

Remarriage was common, in an era when so many people died young, and the fact that many widows had money of their own helped them find a new husband.

Those poor options for women existed up until quite recently too.

I think mental illness was alive and well back then. The human brain and its diseases didn’t just magically appear in the 21st century. The madness of King George, the psychopathy of Ivan the Terrible and Caligula point to lots of mental illness.

Also King Charles VI of France (and his grandson, King Henry VI of England). Queen Juana the Mad of Castile... I'm sure there were others.

Actually I think Caligula just had a wicked sense of humour...,

Didn't they avoid water because they thought it helped bring about Plague? They thought bathing opened up the pores and invited toxic vapors into the body.

Please tell me that cockroaches did not live in powdered wigs and that the poster was joking,

They had delightful caftans

When the Pox first became endemic in Europe the only treatment was liquid mercury, which was injected straight into the penis. Apparently the cure was worse than the disease and most of the patients who were treated this way would have their genitals fill with postules and boils, while the tissue would literally turn black and begin to rot off.

Guys were handsome and had cool threads

Lots of our nursery rhymes and children’s verses are derived from that period. “Ring around the rosy, pocketful of posies” was in reference to the Black Plague.

“Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water” was in reference to the hierarchy of bathing in the house’s one tub. Men first, women, children and infants last. All in the same water. Yuck.

[quote]when those who could afford it drank wine or beer at every meal instead of water

R177 when the water could kill you, the best option was beer or wine.

More kaftans

Can you imagine the venerable diseases brought home to wives from their husbands whoring around?

The Angelus! Back when Rockaway Beach in NYC was known as the Irish Riviera, a bell would sound at noon and crowds would stand at say the Angelus on the beach!

Wine and beer were diluited and.not as strong as the ones we drink today.

Yeah, I read like 2 percent for some of the ales

Oh, the practice of the whole family bathing in once bathtub persisted into the 20th century, R197. In his autobiography Olivier complained about being last in the family bathwater hierarchy, and having to bathe in cold disgusting water every week, and he made it funny by working out how many fractions of a penny his father had saved by re-using water. Because yes, weekly baths also persisted into the 20th century.

I don't think most people were that dirty during the middle ages, and I've heard that the height of personal filth came later, circa the 1600s or 1700s. Bathing happened in the middle ages (see pic), but later bathing was considered unhealthy and evidence of ungodly vanity, and that was when people started cutting off their own hair and wearing wigs because even the rich were covered with lice.

They avoided water because it usually was dirty and alcohol in wine or beer kept out most bacteria.

Clean water was exceptionally hard to come by. If you lived anywhere near a city or even far down river from a city then river water would get you sick and oftentimes kill you.

It wasn't safe to just trust random stream either, impossible to know if an traveling group that upriver.

In fact the reason why springs were considered holy and revered so much is because they were a guaranteed source of safe drinking water. Which was crazy rare back then

I recall reading that when archaeologists studied the skeletons of the sailors who drowned when The Mary Rose sank in the early 16c. they noted the absence of cavities due to their sugar-free diet of course bread and lentils. Henry VIII and his nobles likely had rotten teeth and a generally unhealthy diet with a lot of meat and very few vegetables.

Surprise anal was a hot mess

Water in the cities and towns was an open sewer, drinking any was to take your life in your hands. It was almost as bad in much of the country, where untreated sewage from towns contaminated the water downstream, and if there wasn't a town nearby there would be cattle and other livestock peeing and pooping in the stream when they drank.

So yes, people would drink "small beer" or wine with low alcohol content for hydration, because that was safe and left them able to function. But I still wonder about rates of alcoholism and what all that alcohol did to people's health, because alcohol was everywhere and it was socially acceptable for men to get blind hammered on a regular basis.

It still is R207, it still is.

Most of the skeletons found on the Mary Rose were from Spain, r206. They’d washed up on the shores of England in a shipwreck and had been impressed by the court officials of Henry VIII.

R172, Medieval WESTERN Europe descended into warring tribal factions after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine) continued to thrive until the sack of Constantinople in 1205 by Western Crusaders, which severely weakened the Empire, until its final defeat by the Ottomans around 1453. The Crusaders incursions into the East and beyond reintroduced the West to ancient Greek knowledge, helping usher in the Renaissance.

Life expectancy could be measured by certain thresholds. For example, if you made it past infancy (day 18 months), you were more likely to reach the age of 3. If you reached 3, then you were more Lille to make it to 5. After5, then 8. Then 12. Then 18. And on and on. If you made it through your thirties you were more likely to reach 50. Some did reach old age but you had to get past those key points.

Life expectancy was also bifurcated. Most nobles who lived past childhood lived well into their 50s. Most peasants on the other hand never made it past 35

You have said absolutely nothing with those stats R212

R208 it's still socially acceptable to drink that much. Most of my coworkers my age (late 20s) get blackout drunk 3 or 4 nights a week. I'm going drinking with them tonight and it will likely be to excess. And we're all fine

R213 clearer more logical stats.

R215 - London?

R216 I live in Stamford CT. That's right outside NYC. Most people in the financial industry party pretty hard.

I found that more times than not back then..... the Champagne was burned

I've always wondered what made this era so appealing for people. Life was so hard and wretched.

I would rather have lived in Constantinople or even Cairo or Alexandria during that period.

I’d rather live in the year 3050 then 1050

10th Century Caliphate of Córdoba. Some argue Muslim Spain had taken over all Muslim civilization in power and cultural sophistication. Possibly the later Almoravids would be good. Berbers, good looking, hot cocks.

R221 call me a pessimist but I think it's even odds human civilization is a shithole in 3050. It's normal for human societies to thrive for a while and them experience a dark age where they slide backwards several hundred years. Every society experiences it. I think it's a matter of time before we hit one

I don’t believe that powdered wigs often had cockroaches. I would believe in fleas, maybe, but not roaches.

The Middle East was far superior to the Ancient Romans and Greeks. go back to Ancient Egypt.

If Spain had remained Muslim, I wonder what the geopolitical map of the world would look like today.

In ancient Egypt, the Nile was so polluted that people drank weak beer for hydration.

In the Middle Ages, the rivers also became filthy and also depleted of fish.

London and Paris only got sewer service in the middle of the 19th centuries.

Lots of dumb dumbs holding forth on this thread.

R228 Quote the comment you are talking about or shut up and leave

R229 he/she will make another “caftan” comment to bestow his/her intellectual superiority.

R225 for example. also, since when was the 16th century, or even later considered medieval?

this belongs in one of the malapropism threads but when I was young I thought it was the mean , evil era

R161 is fiction

it's heartening to discover that so many scholars of the medieval world post on DL.

They ate Twinkies.

Medieval starts at the fall of the Roman Empire until the fall of Constantinople

That is so unlike what happens today, r212! Now if you don’t hit 3 you can still try for 38...

I know, totally made up bullshit

r326 That is colloquially how the term is uses so that's is correct in a sense.

If you were to strictly follow academic conventions, the fall of Rome to about 1000 AD is called the Dark Ages. From 1000 to about 1600 is the medieval era or the Middle Ages and 1600 to 1800 is called the Rennaisance era.

That entire period of time featured Kings and Queens and Dukes and all the rest which is why some people just call the entire span medieval.

R326? Are we entering the futuristic age?

[quote]From 1000 to about 1600 is the medieval era or the Middle Age

Cocksucking bullshit. The renaissance in Italy was more than a century before that and changed Europe forever. This is what I mean about history and facts being entirely made up

Apparently we have just entered the age of punk woke emo and Soundcloud.

Has the Duke of Parma weighed in on this?

Yes there may be innacurate info but this thread is interesting thanks OP

I would have thought it was blindingly obvious that the years at r239 were general endpoints for each era. Obviously every country in Europe didn't simultaneously leap forward culturally at the same time at the exact turn of the century.

Most scholars would say England entered the Medieval period in 1066 when they were conquered by someone from the mainland who completely restructured their society. Most would say France entered it almost a century earlier when Hugh Capet had his adolescent child annoited as his heir instead of the nobles electing a new king as was customary in Dark Age kingdoms.

And "cocksucking bullshit"? R241 you sound like a typical right wing douche, who remembers a single line from high school history and thinks that marks you as some genius while you actually know almost nothing.

cunt off, no, I studied medieval history throughout college, asshole. and I'm no genius, but remembering that the renaissance was the most important turning point in European history doesn't necessarily make you one, it just doesn't make you stupid like you.

Spread light, instead of cursing the darkness.

The teeth? There were no such things as fillings. What did they do? The eyes? How did they see when almost everyone needs glasses by the time they're 50?

[quote] remembering that the renaissance was the most important turning point in European history

Even this is telling.

One could easily argue the fall of Rome was much more important. Or the French Revolution or WWI. Or any number of things. Again, clearly this is literally the only subject you know anything about so in your mind it's the most important.

no, you could not. The french revolution or WWI wouldn't have happened if the renaissance hadn't changed the direction of europe. you're making shit up each time you post

Queen Matilda was said to be a huge frau. She was known to cradle her goblet and loved sprinkling nutmeg spice on everything.

Mary, Queen of Scots seemed like a giant frau. Elizabeth was wise to have her taken care of.

Medieval era ended by 1400. The 15th century. Give or take.

And I've read accounts of the French court where women had elaborate powdered wigs and they were infested with mice.I shit you not. Fleas lice crabs vermin. That stuff was not peculiar to the Medieval period.It was also true when Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI were around. Hell. In the 18th and 19th century, New York City was a cesspool. As I think about it, can you imagine how the poor whoors suffered?

A major marker of the medieval era was that royal succession became somewhat stable. (When monarchs didn't have to worry so much about being overthrown from within the kingdom they had more time and resources to spend ton art and other cultural pursuits). But Henry VII still won his throne by killing Richard III in battle. Which was well after 1400.

Another marker for the rennaisance era was the unification of Spain. That also was way after 1400.

The Renaissance didn’t happen all at one time over all of Europe. It started earliest in Italy around the late 14th century and spread northward. The English Renaissance is not considered to have started until the establishment of the Tudor dynasty or the late 15th century.

Tudor dynasty started with Henry the VII in 1485

"A major marker of the medieval era was that royal succession became somewhat stable. "

Except in England, where various claimants to the throne kept making war on each other and trying to depose each other well into the Renaissance. I'd say they kept it up until 1587, to be precise, when Mary Queen of Scots got the chop.

I like how R176 wants to do everything to pretend Arabs/Muslims stole everything from everyone and didn't invent anything because that's how polluted the internet is with everyone basing their beliefs on who they hate the most. Yeah, Europeans aren't in any way shape or for known for appropriating or destroying ANYONE'S culture.

form*

Joan Collins was playing ingenue roles.

They were all raging sociopaths, lit with meth & nitrate ladden alcohol, on the opium (the milk of the poppy). and with the syphilis.

when the king gives you the syphilis, then beheads you.

Camilla really was a Rottweiler back then.

Caliphate of Córdoba was the best place to be in the medieval era: in al-Andalus homosexual pleasures were much indulged in by the intellectual and political elite. Evidence includes the behaviour of rulers, such as Abd al-Rahmn III, Al-Hakam II, Hisham II, and Al Mu'tamid, who openly kept male harems; the memoirs of Abdallah ibn Buluggin, last Zirid king of Granada, makes references to male prostitutes, who charged higher fees and had a higher class of clientele than did their female counter-parts: the repeated criticisms of Christians; and especially the abundant poetry. Both pederasty and love between adult males are found. Although homosexual practices were never officially condoned, prohibitions against them were rarely enforced, and usually there was not even a pretense of doing so."

R257, and decades after Elizabeth I, there was the English Civil War, which culminated in the execution of Charles I, and decades after that James II & VII was deposed by William and Mary.

r258, the Muslim Renaissance, such as it was, died out around 1200 A.D.

What have they contributed to world civilization since then?

Food was not very appetizing at all.

A lot of myths about drinking water here. People in most villages and small towns in medieval times had clean springs and wells and would refill vessels from them. Humans have been digging wells for over 8000 years. People did not prefer to drink from rivers. They raised animals and knew what animals were doing in the water.....hello...few people would willingly drink from a river or a pond, unless desperate. Obviously most people did not travel outside of their villages-in fact, were forbidden to travel if they were peasants. Those who traveled feared drinking water in other towns if they didn't know the source - and would drink beer or wine in preference. Romans knew the importance of clean water, and built aqueducts to carry water from springs in the mountains or nearby hills to all the towns they founded. However, a newcomer to a town or city wouldn't know the best sources for clean water, and many unscrupulous people would sell water straight out of a polluted river or cook with it .

[quote]Can you imagine the venerable diseases brought home to wives from their husbands whoring around?

Meh, not so bad.

R239, the Dark Ages is not an academic term. Historians refer to the period after the fall of Rome to about 1000 as the early Middle Ages. This is followed by the High Middle ages, about 1000-1250, and the late Middle Ages from ca. 1250-1500, although the Renaissance was well underway in Italy before then.

The idea that the Renaissance lasted until 1800 is pretty bizarre.

The house I live in was built in 1905. There was no restroom originally; there was an outhouse outback, and this is right near downtown. There was a cistern room, which is now a pantry. Fireplaces, then gas lights, then electricity...

Roughing it wasn't that long ago.

"It sounds like paradise."

It was. Then came the filthy Europeans with their diseases and rats, raping the land.

Corn, we call it maize.

r270 it's become less popular for actual historians to use the term dark ages because they believe it prejudices people against the era.

But some historians do still use it. Dark Ages and Early Middle Ages are interchangeable terms. For what it's worth, the text book we were taught out if was called "The Dark Ages"

Every households had a dragon, so that was nice. They kept raccoons away from the trash.

Unfortunately, people started eating them in times of famine, and they died out. But a lot of artwork featuring them remains.

[quote]they must have had some form of a dessert? I was thinking ice cream but how would they make ice?

They used honey as a sweetener, and some form of it may have been poured over snow as an early form of ice cream (for the rich).

If you're interested in learnin' about vermin, a book called Rats, Lice and History is crawling with interesting anecdotres. Originally published in 1935 it looks at many aspects of vermin, infectious disease and human history. As Amazon says, it has 'gone through multiple editions and remains a masterpiece of science writing for a general readership'. It's a great read which a teacher lent me for a uni assignment many years ago, though not so far back as 1935.

Just, fonging. Lots of it.

It wasn't all bad, the men walked around wearing tights which left nothing to the imagination. This is one fashion that should come back!

I find male fashion of those times very sexy. especially the one for rich men.

A wonderful History Channel documentary on the Dark Ages. Worth watching.

R265, still not medieval, sorry

[quote]Modern researchers estimate upwards of ninety percent of the indigenous peoples were wiped out throughout the entire continent within the first one hundred years of colonisation after wave after wave of epidemics devastated the native population.

European immune systems were toughened up by the plague.

There's this

[quote]Clean water was exceptionally hard to come by.

They also didn't know that boiling water would sterilize it, and make it safe to drink. Amazingly, that wasn't discovered until the late 19th century.

Their immune systems must've been amazing. Ever wonder why kids today have gazillions of allergies and problems I don't remember from 30 years ago? No one in my class had a peanut allergy. I played in the dirt and no-one kept me isolated from germs 24/7.

Not as amazing as you think r286.

R285, actually, they did, through fermentation

r288 they did not understand why fermentation did not make them sick. It wasn't until the late 1880s that the germ theory was accepted as fact.

of course, but they drank the ales because there were sounder to drink

[quote]The Victorian era was a miserable existence for all but the wealthy.

How the fuck is that different from now???

[quote]Every households had a dragon, so that was nice. They kept raccoons away from the trash. Unfortunately, people started eating them in times of famine, and they died out.

Certainly better than having the dragon eat you!

R212 demonstrated his impressive knowledge of ascending numeric values with that post. He knows 8 comes after 5, and you need to make it to 30 if you’re going to live to 50,

Astounding knowledge, truly.

r293 this is a fun thread, don't shit all over it please.

R282, that wasn't my point, luv.

[quote][R293] this is a fun thread, don't shit all over it please.

Unfortunately, that is the DL way.

R212 stated it clumsily but he was pointing out a common misconception. I just don't think most of you got it.

Mant people read that the life expectancy back then was like 17 and think that meant few people lived past 17 ever. In fact, that's not really the case.

Childhood deaths were far more common. Many peasant women didn't eat enough calories to produce breast milk, and if children were sick they were frequently just left to die. Families did not have the spare resources and time to nurse someone who can't even work.

So really, if you made it past 6 or so, you could expect to live to thirty or more. It's only because so many people died as children that the life expectancy seemed to be less than 20

For some strange reason this thread makes me feel better about myself

Neanderthals are known to tend to incapacitated individuals who could not contribute to the tribe during their illness, so I am skeptical that Medieval humans were so quick to discard family or tribe members who were likewise incapacitated. At least, as a common practice. I have heard that during the plague, the sick sometimes died from neglect, but I imagine society was completely breaking down in many places when a third of the population was sick and dying.

Such short life spans made moisturizing unnecessary.

R299 it wasn't out of cruelty. There just often wasn't enough food. Starving to death was a very real possibility for those people in a way it just isn't our society even for the very poor.

That wasn't true for Neanderthals. They didn't rely on agriculture. They could east any fruit or berries and kill any animals they came across.

In the middle ages, that was actually illegal. Land was owned by people, you weren't free to pick any apples you stumbled across someone probably owned them and could have you beaten as a thief.

And hunting was especially forbidden. Almost all forest land was owned by the king or wealthy nobles. In England specifically the crime for killing a deer in the woods was hanging. And besides that most peasants wouldn't have even known how to hunt or had access to the tools. That was strictly for nobles.

During winters it was normal for a chunk of the population to die from lack of food. When families had to prioritize, they picked people they who could help work over infants

"Neanderthals are known to tend to incapacitated individuals who could not contribute to the tribe during their illness, so I am skeptical that Medieval humans were so quick to discard family or tribe members who were likewise incapacitated."

Oh, I'm sure they tried to tend to sick family members, but since there was absolutely no effective medical help available, they couldn't really do anything but basic nursing.

This still goes on in desperately poor areas today, if it's clear that a baby or other family member is going to die, people do what they're capable of doing, but there's a process of emotional and eventually a physical withdrawl, an acceptance of the inevitable. Something that people in the "civilized" world have a lot of trouble with these days, because they still seem to think that death is optional if they throw enough money at the problem.

As for the plague, 30% of the general population may have died, but that doesn't mean that 30% died in any given place. In some places the death toll was low to none, and in some places it was 50% or higher, or perilously close to 100%.

There's a theory that came up in a discussion of the plagues that depopulated the Americas after the first contact with white people, something like 90% of the American population died after being exposed to Old World diseases. The theory is that if greater than a certain percentage of the population dies, something like 75%, then the civilization collapses. Too much infrastructure vanishes - if you're a farmer then there's nobody left to pick your crops or transport them to the market, nobody left to trade with, maybe nobody left alive who knows how to correctly plant next year's crop, no feudal Lord left to fight off the bandits, etc. So in areas of Europe where more than 90% of the population died, the survivors were left without family or infrastructure, and they ended up starving, begging, or joining the bandits.

R303, I think it’s even smaller, like 30%.

Imagine you lose the medicine man and his family. All your medicinal knowledge could be lost with the death of just a few people. Likewise stone masons, and so forth.

R304, I don't remember what the exact figure is, and whether literacy makes any difference to the collapse of civilization. If knowledge is saved in books then it not all knowledge is lost when the learned die, but you can't learn things like farming or medicine just from books.

I read this theory in a book about one of the Lost Cities of South or Central America, and the author said that the threshold of civilization collapse was passed in that region, but not in Europe during the 14th century. Although there were regions of local collapse and depopulation, where there was no infrastructure left and the survivors starved or fled.

fascinatingly central america is the only region of the world that has never grow back since it's collapse

The attire made quickie sex quite a challenge.

R306 it's society didn't really "collapse" at least not in the same way Rome did. They were conquered and enslaved. Pretty big difference

It's true that doing the middle ages tending to the sick was not an easy job, as no one understood the concept of contagion. This is where the old adage (now thoroughly misunderstood) comes from:

Feed a cold, starve a fever.

People today think it means that if you have a cold, you should eat to feel better, but if you have a fever, you shouldn't eat. It's about you, in other words. But the actual original of the concept was about the other person: it meant that if someone had a cold, you fed them to make them better, because they would probably recover. If they had a fever, the odds were excellent they would die, so feeding them was a waste of food, a precious commodity.

[quote]What the hell did they use for social media?

The town crier spilleth the SCALDING tea!

Why did they, like r310's guy and women, have clothing drag on the ground, with the horse shit? How did they keep it clean, or didn't they?

R311 I don't know this for a fact but I'm willing to bet the style came from the Romans. Who also loved long flowy clothes that touched the ground

I can't understand why something so impractical, how did the keep it clean, or did they just say "fuck it" and leave the dirt and horse shit on there?

It was a symbol you didn’t have to walk in the muck and more. The normal person would not have worn such clothes and, as a matter of fact, what clothing style and the material used was heavily regulated by your social position.

and also taxed based on level of finery

But even depictions of people who weren't rich shows floor length clothing.

R314 That makes sense. Fabric was actually extremely expensive. Most peasants would only own one set of clothes. And would have to patch it for years before they would dream of buying another. All the clothe nobles wore might have been an advertisement. "Look at all this cloth I can afford, it doesn't even serve a practical purpose"

I think cod pieces should be brought back for men.

I think some in this thread would like this series. They recreate clothes from old oil paintings using the techniques of the day (stale urine for dye, etc.)

I'd like to hear more about Florentine men being flogged.

"R[R306] it's society )Central and South America) didn't really "collapse" at least not in the same way Rome did."

No, really, entire regions of Central and South America, at least, were devastated and depopulated by plagues by the time the conquerors arrived. The very first white men who sailed down the Amazon river reported many impressive-looking towns and villages, which were long regarded as myths because the later white men who came to the Amazon basin saw no such things. Well now that the rain forests are being cleared and archeologists are moving in (along with ranchers and farmers and others), they're finding the remains of these lost cities of the Amazon. Apparently the first white men who came through spread contagious diseases that the population couldn't resist, and the region was depopulated and their civilization collapsed, and the descendants of the people who built roads and earthworks went back to being small stone age tribes... because of the collapse process described above.

Again, I don't know where the threshold of population loss leading to the loss of a culture is set, but Europe as we know it never came closer to the edge than during the "Black Death" plague.

Europeans were more resistant to disease than most other groups.

Pathologists theorize it was because European society was much more urban than most others at a similar stage of development. That meant more people in close contact

In the history of Europe, the Middle Ages (or medieval period) lasted from the 5th to the 15th century.

R323 You sound like a fool referring to "Historians" as some universal group that has set a mutually agreed upon standard.

Academics spend a lot of time arguing with each other over this terminology. Calling 500 to 1000 the early middle ages is correct. Calling the dark ages is also correct. Saying the medieval era didn't start until 1000 is also correct. You can find published historians saying all of these things. The fact that YOU read something doesn't give it more credence than the entire body of research.

Get over yourself

The biggest impact of disease spread was the 12,000-20,000 years of isolation from the old world. All the plagues, influenza, etc. worked their way through the old world populations so immunity was built up. Natives had none of this

The Mayan civilization collapsed some hundreds of years before Columbus. The same for the Indians in Chaco Canyon in the US Southwest, though I think that was earlier.

There were unknown diseases that are thought to have been deadly, widespread, and pre-Colombian. Plus climate change. Possibly the loss of the super-large game animals.

Also, Europeans had a slew of domesticated animals that they lived within close proximity with. They passed diseases back and forth and developed immunity. The Indians had few domesticated animals. No beats of burden like horses, mules, camels, or oxen. No sheep or lamb, no pigs or chickens.

[quote] You sound like a fool

Says the tard claiming the medieval period lasted until the 17th century.

r322 Europeans also have some Neanderthal DNA.

Actually Europe was not nearly as populated with cities as east Asia, South Asia, West Asia and Egypt during medieval times. But the entire Old World did have repeated epidemics of smallpox and other diseases over the course of centuries and millennia that didn't every reach the New World. People who survived these epidemics were more resistant than populations which had never experienced them. They might get sick, but they wouldn't be as likely to die from these diseases than those never exposed before. There were populations throughout history that suffered serious declines, and civilizations that abruptly disappeared, but nothing on the order of the decimation that occurred in the Western Hemisphere after the arrival of Europeans. The description of the fall of Tenochtitlan (Mexico City) says that as the people were exposed to diseases brought by the conquistadors, they became so weak they couldn't eat, cook, or bury the dead. There was a mass die off. Many believe that as many as 90% of native Mexicans died by the end of the 1600s, bringing their population from 20,000,000 or more to just 2,000,000.

In the US, tribes that probably historically numbered in the 10s of thousands for a total population of maybe 10,000,000 were reduced to bands of 300 or 400 by the time white people began pushing westward in the continent - probably numbering no more than 1,000,000 or less by the time of Lewis and Clark.

Lots of artwork make it look like hell.

[quote]Lots of artwork make it look like hell.

Many of those artists trafficked in Fake News.

Here's Brueghel's famous painting of a peasant wedding. The bride is sitting in front of a draped blue cloth, feeling like Queen For A Day, and is wearing a paper crown. The wedding feast consists of bread, seen at the tables, and bowls of what my art history book says is custard or porridge. That's probably ale in the big jugs.

So even when holding a big wedding, the peasantry couldn't afford meat.

R332, that isn't that unusual. An Amish wedding has a main course known as "filling". It is basically bread stuffing with a little bit of chicken mixed in (and a lot of celery). Emphasis on a "little bit" of chicken. In some communities only the men get the filling with meat.

I have experienced he same thing at farm weddings. The main course is often macaroni and cheese, maybe with a little ham.

There is a reason for this. Weddings tend to happen during the slow periods in an agrarian society. This is usually several months away from when animals are slaughtered and meat is more plentiful. Note that eggs are not used either. Eggs are for income. They are not wasted on a wedding.

Well, judging by the bodies in r332's painting, they were most certainly not starving.

R334, judging from the fact that the people could afford dyed cloth, I am not sure peasant is the right class. Artisan is probably more accurate.

R33 Are you Sicilian and Italian? Polenta is much better than anything from Sicily. Even Southern Italians eat polenta in the winter time. It tastes great with sausages,peppers,onions and a tomato sauce. Also great with gorgonzola and butter.

polenta is nice but saying it's better than sicilian cousine is pure lunacy.

Eating things can’t make you fat

Yeah! It's GENETICS!

Neanderthals lived in an entirely different world without "civilization" as we know it, and certainly without the social. hierarchies that dictate said "civilizations," so comparing them to people in medieval times is foolish.

R301 is correct. Neanderthals actually had much better access to resources than a 12th century peasant living in a feudal society.

they got to eat wooly rhinoceros

It's worth noting though that the Neanderthal lifestyle would be completely unsustainable with population sizes like Europe had during the medieval era. Theyd eat the countryside bare in days.

Once you have large populations you MUST employ widescale agriculture and keep cultivate livestock.

Apparently Neanderthal use to eat their dead, all the squeletons found are in pieces, including the skulls, showing marks of tools used to remove the "meat" from the bones, inside out.

Squeletons?

R340 lives about three decades ago, history-wise.

John green lays it out

John green describes the end of the medieval age

R344 yes, a mixte of "skeletons", and french "squelettes".

Maybe I missed this, but my god, birthing children must have been tortuous.

Still is.

R350 not like it was then.

It was basically filling the coin whether you lived or died. And no drugs, not even milk of poppy because it made women to sleepy to push.

My sister almost died in the mid 1980s in childbirth.

There was no Grindr then, but the gay knights and monks formed a mean sexual hierarchy: No paupers. No jesters. No serfs.

There must've been tons of homosex going on in those monasteries.

I'm old OP, but I'm not *that* old.

r354 yes it was well known during that era thatamy monks had sex with each other. The church tried several crackdowns with little success.

Why aren’t there any drawls of Neanderthals between the ages of 16 and 26? The must have been some hot ones. Pics like R328 are all elderthals and not representative of DataLounge standards.

No, Neanderthals were all pretty hideous.

Here is a reconstructed Alexander the Great, though.

r358 hideous

Alexander Butterface

Looking like he smelled fresh baked something

[quote]Apparently the first white men who came through spread contagious diseases that the population couldn't resist, and the region was depopulated and their civilization collapsed, and the descendants of the people who built roads and earthworks went back to being small stone age tribes... because of the collapse process described above.

Question : If most of these diseases originate in tropical climates, why are tropical peoples / people whose ancestors could be traced to tropical areas the "least" resistant?

Reconstructions always look like they suffer from a genetic defect.

Alexander the Great's tomb could still be out there, somewhere.

Alex was hawt and sensitive looking,

Alexander was family and proud of it. He openly flaunted his relationship with Hephaestus. Had he lived longer, I think Alexander would have formally acknowledged him as a royal consort.

Hephaestus was the god of fire, metalworking, stone masonry, forges and the art of sculpture. He was the son of Zeus and Hera and married to Aphrodite by Zeus to prevent a war of the gods fighting for her hand. He was a smithing god, making all of the weapons for Olympus and acting as a blacksmith for the gods. >> I believe you meant Hephaestion

People must not have been very attractive back then, what with the inbreeding and malnutrition.

[quote] People must not have been very attractive back then, what with the inbreeding and malnutrition.

Well, the standard of what was attractive was very different. Remember for hundreds of years obese people were considered beautiful.

Baths were not in vogue at the time

....

Some biologists theorize a huge percentage of people of European descent are immune to the plague.

lets hope

Thankfully Bubonic plague has mostly been eliminated. Not fully eradicated though -- you still hear of occasional cases and flare-ups here and there. Squirrels seem to be occasional vectors of plague.

All of those ancient diseases -- plague, smallpox, anthrax -- sound terrifying.

They didn’t have McDonald’s at that time. They ate mostly game hens. They liked salt. They had sex but it was mostly missionary position or kinky stuff on the other end.

PrEP protects me from disease. I bet it would work for Plague

I wonder how prevalent oral sex was. Imagine putting your face in a crotch that hadn't been washed in a month!

Wasn't oral sex considered taboo and evil up until 50-75 years ago?

R378 yes it was still considered sodomy

Um no, sodomy was something very specific. And no one really followed those sex conventions anyway. Brothels were a booming business back then

I just watched a documentary where historians discuss ancient Egypt having brothels.

R380 really gurl?

[quote] Definition of sodomy: anal or oral copulation with a member of the same or opposite sex

Small pox is not an ancient disease. It was declared eradicated only in 1980 by the WHO. There were still plenty of cases in the 1960's - early 1970's, mostly in India and eastern Africa.

There have been isolated cases of bubonic plague in recent times - there was a small outbreak in Madagascar in 2017.

I would never do oral! It’s vulgar!

There’s a form of plague carried my rodents in the American South West.

R383, smallpox has been around since the era of ancient Egypt and India. A horrible, disfiguring disease. We are so lucky it has been eradicated.

Their bread looks dense.

Thank you to the poster for the "A Stitch In Time" series. I'm watching them now and they're delightful. Here they recreate a suit of armor from the 14th century.

[quote}It was basically filling the coin whether you lived or died.

What does "filling the coin" mean?

R387, their bread did not look like that. The majority was made of barley not wheat. Very dense, but filling.

Filling the coin sounds like euphemism for surprise anal.

R260 bread and lentils are high in carbohydrates so people would have more cavities with a diet primarily consisting of those, as opposed to diets with more meats, veg, and cheese.

R389 the non-prurient side of my imagination assumes that was a typo for "flipping"

Sorry, r206 not r260

When I last visited the Musee d'Orsay in Paris, they were displaying some of Toulouse-Lautrec's brothel sketches. There were a couple showing oral sex, where the woman lay back and the man was on top shoving it into her mouth.

So no, oral sex was common enough before the 20th century, I suppose the 20th century is when women started doing it for free.

There would haven been very little privacy for sex unless you were upper class or royal and even then, you’d cuddle with your servants at night for body heat. NPR had a story on it—we’d sleep in a pile like monkeys.

people were used to seeing other people have sex. privacy is a modern concept

Where did they poop in Medieval times?

They were into tit torture.

I have read that people pooped all over Versailles. Not in whatever privies that might have been, nor in out houses. Everywhere, closets, stairwells, bedrooms, everywhere.

Yes, Versailles stank. The nobles had their chamber pots emptied by their servants, but the hundreds and hundreds of servants were not provided with any place to relieve themselves... so they peed and pooped in the corridors.

[quote] People who could afford it ate lots of meats, either stewed or slow-roasted over a fire. People who've re-created medieval methods of slow-roasting meats over open flames say that the joints and roasts come out incredibly tender and flavorful, better than today's oven-baked roasts.

Which is why I love my Crockpot.

r399 I wish I could find it, but I read a great article online about how filthy the Palace of Versailles was during the Imperial era. Yes, people pissed and shit all over the place. There was a lack of water closets. There are recorded accounts from people from other countries who visited the palace and were disgusted at how filthy and unsanitary it was.

A wonderful History Channel documentary where they recreate ordinary life in Medieval times.

I saw Ann Reinking and Joel Grey on Broadway in Goodtime Charley. I think I am pretty much an expert on the Medieval era and expect my opinions to be respected.

They had great footware back then.

A blog post about medieval toilets.....

I had to look up the Versailles sanitation situation and wow, you guys weren't exaggerating.

(The article contains relevant quotes from several primary sources)

Interesting video about representations of sodomy in Medieval art

There was some other thread about Victorian-era etiquette when one poster said that during dinner a guest was not permitted to leave the room as it would be considered rude. During the course of a 3-4 hour meal, people would pee behind a divider into a chamber pot. God knows that they did when they needed to shit. The Victorian era was supposed to be an improvement from Medival era. People were straight up nasty until the 20th Century.

Whatever the era, you were lucky if you were born a man. Women had a shitty life, whether noble or poor.

I love all the experts on this thread. Geez.

In fact, the people of the Medieval era - across the globe - had a very high-fat diet consisting primarily of soups and stews, using every last bit of the animal, so you can imagine it was very high-fat. They also boiled their clothes in leftover animal fat in order to ward off evil spirits. And, people didn't believe so much in bathing, so everyone stank to high heaven and smelled mostly of rotting meat. You can imagine how that smelled. And, you only had one set of clothes which you wore repeatedly until they started to fall apart, even the wealthier people.

[quote]What was sex like?

Much stankier than it is now.

[quote]They had great footware back then.

I can see where Comme des Garcons are getting their inspiration from!

[quote]Um no, sodomy was something very specific.

Not really, which is why the legal definition was so broad.

Modern evangelicals would like it to be as narrow as possible in order to sharply condemn one class of people: gays.

Terry Jones' Medieval Lives

Here's part one medieval lives ... The Peasant

While of course it's not medieval, the Palace of Versailles has been mentioned several times here. This is a documentary about how filthy it was. In spite of its beauty, it was a real shithole. Literally!