RHODA (1974-1978)

Show went downhill after they divorced.

Show went downhill after they married. Joe and Rhoda were totally wrong for each other.

I LOVE RHODA the character, and Valerie the actress. Aside from the episodes with Nancy Walker, 75% of "Rhoda" sucked unfortunately. But I watched it through the entire run.

I loved huh!

The husband was fug.

Joe was a sexy dude, though, and that never hurts.

Did Nancy Walker ever have a show? That should have been the spin-off. She was fabulous!

Nancy Walker left Rhoda for a dud series called Blansky's Beauties.

Don't forget Nan's directoral debut in Can't Stop The Music.

Nancy's first show was called "The Nancy Walker Show" with William Daniels and Iola Boylen. It was actually pretty good but she couldn't be Ina Morgenstern. BB was a Garry Marshall disaster.

I was a very young gayling when Rhoda aired, and I remember the sight of David Groh shirtless making me fell all "funny" inside. A few years later, I understood why I felt that way.

Valerie Harper was so beautiful in Rhoda and retained her comic timing even with what was a lot of shitty material. I tried to style my hair like hers! "Brenda" has been an icon here at the DL, but not in my house.

David Groh had the ethnic good looks that were popular with actors on TV and movies in the 1970s, but I always thought he was out of his depth as an actor on this show. He was hired to be Rhoda's prince charming, and he fit the role in that sense, 70s style. I always wondered how it would have been if they paired her with a WASPY good looking guy - there could be tons of material on the culture clash of the families.

One of the of the good later shows was when Rhoda was dating Judd Hirsch. They had great chemistry that transcended the material. However, that story line was fucked up because they had Hirsch break up with Rhoda - and NOT sleep with her - because she was "getting too serious." Not remotely believable, and I realized the show was destined for the shit hole.

The actor who played Brenda's boyfriend, Ray Butkenika would have been better with Rhoda but you see they made Brenda into Rhoda and Rhoda into MTM. They briefly had Rhoda with Rene Auberjonois that was interesting. At least they didn't cast the extra creepy Richard Masur who was a CBS favorite.

Joe said she trapped him into the marriage which was bullshit it was like the writers wanted us to hate him.

David Groh was to 'Rhoda' what 'Richard Beymer' was to West Side Story: an epically tragic miscasting of a leading role.

I can't see "Benny" with Rhoda like you do, R13. But at the time, I saw Ray Butkenika (Benny) and Ron Silver (Gary) as DeNiro and Pacino-like in a comedy. Call me 1970s crazy.

There were a couple (?) of wonderful episodes with everyone's fave Vivian Vance playing a friend of Rhoda's, with Ida confused and jealous that she could befriend a woman her age.

They gave Rhoda a WASP bf on MTM, Doug Hemple. They had zero chemistry. Val worked better with ethnic types.

Did Mr Hogan even mourn her passing or was too into his sister Sandy?

Val's characters had no luck with men.

Vivian Vance was supposed to become a regular character on the show but she was diagnosed with cancer. It would have run a few more seasons if that had worked out. A shame.

Like Jonas, R17? Puke. "Doug Hemple" was a prop, not anything that would have gone or was planned to go on. I was thinking of a Ken Howard type, Wasp but New Yorkey.

The Rhoda’s wedding episode is one of my favorites for any sitcom ever.

Some of the best of Rhoda was in her interactions with Nancy Walker's character "Ma" and Cloris Leachman's character "Phyllis.

Nancy Walker left for a couple of seasons to try her own series, but she came back in about the 4th or 5th season and the series looked as if it might make it.

Unfortunately, CBS cancelled it mid-way through Season 5 - we didn't get a chance to see what it could have been.

I loved the idea of Rhoda and Joe - though in hindsight I see they didn't have much chemistry.

I loved Rhoda's apartments - always well-decorated in a off-beat kind of way.

Rhoda and Joe lived on the 9th floor even though the exterior shots showed it was only a six-story building

Rhoda got too harsh and bitter and lost her appealing nature. It got tiresome to watch her. Brenda remaineda delight throughout though.

Nancy was the original Hildy Estherhazen in On the Town on Broadway. Her first movie was Best Foot Forward. She was in the Broadway show and was brought to Hollywood to film the movie version. Her version of "The Three B's," with June Allyson and Gloria DeHaven is classic.

[quote] Joe said she trapped him into the marriage which was bullshit it was like the writers wanted us to hate him.

LOL! For some reason this is a lesson that stayed in my mind. At the time of the wedding I was young and impressionable - probably a gushy romantic like you - but my wise mother told me before the wedding he wasn't as in love with her as she was with him and that she forced his hand to marry her. My mom said she'd live to regret it. Mothers just know. The writers knew all along what they were writing - a desperate female snagging a hottie she thought wasn't as smart as she was.

True, R26. As Valerie Harper said herself, they made Rhoda too "Sadie Sadie Married Lady" with Joe, desperate and unrealistically and annoyingly needy.

Saying that Rhoda only worked well with ethnics is like saying Barbra Streisand only worked well with WASPS. Under the right circumstances, they both work well. Streisand worked very well with ethnics (George Segal, Richard Dreyfuss, Mandy Patinkin, Hoffman) , but her vanity gets in the way as usual - that's why she's most always with non-Jews in movies.

I always give the showrunners credit for inventing the brilliant way of making Rhoda the central character the same way the creators of farsier later copied: they created a sibling who was even more neurotic and self-deprecating than Rhoda herself with Brenda 9just as the Frasier show did with an even fussier and prissier sibling than Frasier with Niles. Thus you got all the old Rhoda jokes in the mouth of Brenda rather than Rhoda herself and you could have Rhoda react to them.

Rhoda was not a bad show. Harper and Julie Kavner and Nancy Walker all had brilliant comic timing and played off each other wonderfully. the Job character was a problem created simply because the show's creators decided their central idea would be to have Rhoda finally get married--"All America will want to see that!," they decided, and they really were right--but they did not take enough time casting Joe and found a sexy actor with whom Valerie Harper had no chemistry and whose character was not very interesting. They managed to get rid of him soon enough, but then Nancy walker stupidly decided she could pilot her own show (which she could not), and that hurt "Rhoda" even more not to have her anymore in a regularly appearing role.

But I will always love the show because of that great theme song, because of Brenda, because of Carleton Your Doorman, and the great way Valerie Harper would stride with her long legs to her intercom to talk to him.

All this negativity makes my cancer hurt. Stop it guys, okay!?

But didn't Joe propose to her in the 6th episode? Did she give him an ultimatum like Lilith did with Frasier?

I hated how they de-glamorized Rhoda and her situation over the years. She started off as a chic, glamorous window designer with a beautiful apartment. By the end of the show, she was assisting in some low-rent costume shop, and her apartment was dumpy. She didn't even dress as well.

This young gay disapproved of her downward mobility.

I lover Nancy Walker as Ida. My mother was basically an Episcopalian version of Ida (same guilt trips, same emotional martyrdom). She was even short and had red hair like Ida.

That multi-named show Val was thrown off of in the 1980s had a cooler theme song than that creepy carousel thing this show had.

Speaking of guilt Trippers Doris Roberts played Ron Silver's mother in an episode.

Most MTM viewers enjoyed it for the trio of talented comic actresses, Valerie, Nancy Walker and Julie Kavner. There was usually some great lines in every episode, even if the show as a whole wasn't really working. Not usually working, although I'll bet one or two of the seasons are clearly the best.

I loved the show as a kid. It doesn’t really hold up, especially the later years.

Fred Silverman decreed that Rhoda must get divorced from Joe - that was the show’s kiss of death if you ask me. I don’t think they had bad chemistry, but viewers who were so enthralled with seeing these two go crazy for each other then suddenly get divorced - it made no sense and made lovable Rhoda less lovable. The ratings dropped when Joe was let go and never really recovered.

I actually thought they made Rhoda more glamorous because Valerie was losing weight like crazy (season four, it’s kind of alarming how thin she got). So again, the character became less relatable to viewers now that she was no longer the “fat funny one.”

I did like the Johnny Bravo character that became a sort of love interest for Rho in season 3 or 4.

I thought they did a better job with keeping the Phyliss character intact when they spun her off. Unfortunately, due to bad luck - it only lasted two years.

I wonder how Valerie’s doing . She stopped posting on social media I couple of years ago 🙁

Weird that Mary is dead but Valerie, Cloris, Georgia and fucking Betty White are still alive.

I thought Carleton the Doorman was a stupid joke that went on too long.

Funny that non-ethnic* Joe resembled in demand actor James Caan in a way, it was even mentioned once by Brenda. That may have been a reason he was hired. Jewish James Caan, by the way.

* Martin to Ida, "Why didn't you ask him (Joe) if he was Jewish?" Ida, "If he was I would have asked."

Was Valerie the only non-Jew in the cast?

I was no longer catching every episode in the later seasons, but then it moved into syndication and I ended up seeing all the episodes multiple times then. The show wasn't that bad, as uneven as it was, still light years better than mindless crap like Three's Company.

Phyllis and her daughter are the perfect prototyes for modern day "Fraus"

I loved Rhoda's apartment,those windows and the snow scenes.I know it must have been difficult to keep warm.

I really liked Bess - she completely disappeared after Phyliss and quit the business.

I think CBS knew that Rhoda was not going to last more than five seasons. It didn't have the same ingredients that The Mary Tyler Moore Show had.

[R40]

Three's Company....

Mindless crap

Fight me

I like Kavner but that whiny voice was really hard to take. It started becoming the Brenda show and we were often pushed into her claustrophobic room that was not surprisingly like Rhoda's apt in MTM.

And Rhoda did force Joe into marrying her. He wanted them to live with each other and Rhoda chickened out at the last second saying she wanted to be married. He really wasn't interested in her that way and his failed marriage made him weary and wary. Before Groh was cast, they were thinking about William Devane, in other words, all boring, emotionless hunks.

The show was a disaster from the get go because the creators didn't really allow her to be the Rhoda we loved on MTM, she became MTM.

R20, Jonas was played by the wonderful character actor Steve Franken. He and Valerie were great in the episode where MTM attends the engagement party of an ex-boyfriend but they couldn't pull it past that.

CBS also didn’t want another [italic]Bridget Loves Bernie[/italic] situation where they got protested over it.

Nancy Walker had the (at the time) unique distinction of being the only actor to appear as two different characters on two different shows on two different networks at the same time. Sure, she's Ida Morgenstern, but to me she'll always be Mildred, the housekeeper on McMillan and Wife.

Kavner's Marge Simpson voice was perfect

I always wondered why Mildred never discussed her daughters Rhoda and Brenda on McMillan and wife.I mean Mildred's character was similar to Ida on Rhoda

MORE!

I liked to first season theme with the Rhoda voiceover

Remember when Ray Buktenica and Joyce DeWitt were Hollywood's IT couple. The world was theirs for the taking.

[quote]Was Valerie the only non-Jew in the cast?

Nancy Walker was not Jewish.

[quote]Did she give him an ultimatum like Lilith did with Frasier?

Did you not watch "Will & Grace?"

WILL: So, ask him.

GRACE: No, no. No. That's not the way it's supposed to happen. I want him to ask me.

WILL: Grace, in the real world, women ask men all the time. Rhoda asked Joe.

GRACE: No, she didn't.

WILL: Yes, she did. She kept waiting for him to pop the question, and when he finally did, it was, "Do you wanna live together?" So she looked him right in the eye and said, [IMITATING RHODA] "Ok, Joe. I wanna be married."

GRACE: Wow. You will use any excuse to do a Rhoda impression.

WILL: Grace, you love him. You wanna marry him. So ask him.

GRACE: You're right. I should. I will! I'm gonna ask him. I mean, it makes total sense. I was the one who was gonna end up paying for the ring anyway. Oh, my God! This is so exciting!

WILL: I know! [AS RHODA] I gotta call my sister Brenda and tell her the news.

Nancy Walker was also the Bounty spokesperson Rosie - appearing in hundreds of commercials

While simultaneously working on two different hit shows on two different networks

[R53]

MAGA trash trolls are everywhere, can't even remember a funny show like Rhoda without racist content.Clutches my pearls.

Valerie Harper really fucked up her own hit show. For the first 2 seasons Rhoda was always a consistent Top 10 hit in the ratings. Then during the third season Valerie decided that it would be more realistic if she and Joe's marriage went on the rocks - a disastrous decision since the viewers really liked Rhoda and Joe together. The ratings fell, Joe was only on the show once in awhile, and Nancy Walker left to pursue her own TV series. The show never recovered and it was cancelled after 4 and a half years. Moral of the story - if it ain't broke don't fix it. If Rhoda and Joe had stayed together the show would have continued on successfully for quite some time. It's too difficult for viewers to accept an abrupt change in a hit show.

Valerie Harper dropped the ball - as well as her hat - when she made the decision to kick the character of hubby Joe off her show.

R57, Valerie didn't make that decision, you idiot.

David Groh was great as Joe - he was very animated and had great presence. It didn't hurt that he was handsome, masculine - and that furry chest!

Rhoda and Joe.

No, David Groh was NOT great as Joe. Read the thread you imbecile.

R59 Dear Mr. Nasty: Valerie Harper had great clout on Rhoda and sanctioned the change of the character of Joe leaving the show. A poor decision by all.

She also fucked up her second successful TV series. She asked for a large pay increase after 2 years of doing Valerie and the producers fired her.

Valerie did not do well having her own TV series.

By the last season, the show was basically running on fumes. Hell, they didn't even bother airing any more first-run episodes after about mid December of the last season. They weren't shown until it went into syndication.

R62 WRONG! Millions of TV viewers thought David Groh was great as Joe and he was very popular.

After his character was dwindled down to almost nothing in the third season, the ratings of Rhoda dropped drastically, never to recover. Don't mess with success.

Halfway through the fifth season the show's ratings plunged to #95 in the ratings and the show was abruptly cancelled with 4 unaired episodes. Too many changes killed it.

Rhoda managed to crank out 110 episodes, enough for syndication reruns.

I read that the writers had a hard time coming up with ideas while Rhoda was married to Joe. After they separated and divorced the situation got much better. As a married woman Rhoda was boring.

R34, I think Nancy Walker and Doris Roberts were the best actresses to play interfering mothers. Their comic timing was fantastic.

After the divorce was final, did Joe ever appear on the show again?

I watched this show in reruns, since I wasn't alive when it was on. Whose decision was it to get rid of Joe? I liked Rhoda married. It was a counter to her single days on MTM. I do, however, remember them making Joe kind of a dick. Specifically the episode MTM guest stars on, he was so rude.

Joe was mean to MTM because she pegged him, but never called again.

It was said to be the producers decision, although Valerie didn’t object to it.

The funniest part of the wedding episode is when Phyllis shows up after forgetting to pick up Rhoda. 4:00-5:15 and then again from 7:07-8:20. Georgia Engel's line reading is hysterical. Brilliant comedy writing.

Funny how connected Rhoda is to Neil Simon's Chapter Two. I don't know how the dates match up but David Groh replaced Judd Hirsch on Broadway. (then I guess Hirsch sort of replaced Groh on Rhoda?)

then Valerie did the movie with.....James Caan.

I've watched MTM reruns my whole life but only started watching Rhoda a few years ago.

At first the show really bothered me. It reverses all the progress Rhoda (and Mary) had made about not minding being single and not desperate for a husband. In the first episode of Rhoda she meets a guy, quits her job, moves from Minneapolis, leaves Mary and all her friends. All for a guy. It just seemed wrong. Rhoda had progressed pass that on the MTM show.

Lovely thread I loved Rhoda and Joe as a couple Network having difficulty coming up with Joe/Rhoda storylines.I find that hard to believe,marrieds are the focus of many sitcomes.Surely the writers could update a plot or two.

Joe and MTM,...wasn't Moore Mrs.Grant Tinker then...so i highly doubt she pegged him.She was married to the network president.Now Grant may have worried and moved to remove Joe. I can see it,Joe's chest hair drove plenty wild. Maybe Moore expressed a desire to Grant,who was insanely jealous and very possesive of his "Star"

Tinker wasn't the head of the network. He was head of MTM at that time and then later became head of NBC after they had divorced.

[R76]

Tinker was still in the picture and with MTM in a relationship. So the Mary/Joe angle makes zero sense.....Mary always seemed very much in love with Grant Tinker.Even when Joe was around. Thats my point love

My god, whatever went down happened 45 years ago. Get over it! They simply got rid of Joe, despite how popular Joe/Rhoda were, because the writers couldn't come up with any additional stories for a married couple. It was easier to write Rhoda as single. Simple as that.

Our friendly WIkipedist informs us that David Groh went to study at LAMDA on a Fullbright Scholarship.

He wasn't exactly talent-free. And he stirred my gayling groins.

Nancy Walker has been compared to Patsy Kelly who was still working during the time of "Mary Tyler Moore"/"Rhoda" on Broadway ("No No Nanette" & "Irene"), Disney films & TV ("The Cop & the Kid" & "Love Boat"). Both were tough but funny & lovable, short, not quite stout but not skinny Minnie's either, and complete scene stealers. I think that Patsy played Hildy from "On the Town" in stock. Here's a video of Nancy in a newsreel short featuring her big #.

Patsy, openly lesbian, played man-hungry females in comedy's of the 1930's and early 40's, stopped working in films the same year that Nancy made her film debut. Nancy was a very busy stage actress, so she only made a handful of films, and worked with Phil Silvers several times ("Do Re Mi", pre-Broadway "A Funny Thing Happened....."). I would have loved to see her in one of the three City Center productions of "Wonderful Town". (The others were Kaye Ballard & Elaine Stritch.)

R75, are you aware that Mary and Tinker never saw each other without clothes for the duration of their marriage? Mary said it, and it was her idea (modesty). This is not a woman who cheated. Just sayin.

Unless Joe Groh Rho recited his vows while being held at gunpoint he was not forced into anything. He had a bad first marriage to Valene Ewing and knew it wasn't for him. What did they do with his neglected poor neglected son though?

There was a book that came out around 1980 - “The Great TV Sitcom Book” where the author writes about every newtwork sitcom that ever aired - still not a huge number in 1980. As a TV obsessed kid I read it cover to cover.

Lesser & quickly cancelled shows only get a few paragraphs but successful shows got several pages. He included not just his opinions (though he was very blunt about the bad shows) and would often interview people involved.

Rhoda got a long write up - I was a huge fan of her, her funky apartments & the show - I loved the wedding episode & was disappointed that they divorced - so I was very interested.

The entry analyzes the Joe / divorce issue, and one of the shoes writers was interviewed. He said that while it was true that it was harder to come up with stories for a less interesting, married Rhoda “at the end of the day, we had saddled ourselves with a lousy actor playing Joe.” I was kind of shocked to read something that unvarnished, so I remember it.

He also beat Bobbi!

Don't let our similar looks fool you. I may marry for money, but I'd never kill anybody, well not on purpose.

You let your son be tinkered with and he ended up as a chipmunk!

Valerie was best as MTM's Rhoda.

After that, she wasn't the right fit to lead her own shows.

LOL, R82. Right, Joe wasn't forced into anything. That plot device was used as an easy way of deleting him when necessary.

As far as the son, I saw the MTM episode about "Stevie." He was such a fucking obnoxious brat, I don't care if they left him at the Port Authority.

New York City looked like absolute shit in R72. But then, anybody could actually afford to live there then.

I love how everybody fawned over that little tyke like he was so special.

Think again, R89.

In the wedding episode, Rhoda desperately searches for at taxi at the intersection of 72nd & Broadway - with the old Gray Papaya´s in the background. It looks like an urban wasteland. Now it is one of the most desirable areas of Manhattan, 72nd Street being an express stop 'n all.

R72 That episode is so great.

Mary you are just like a daughter to me, so shut up!

This just in from the way back machine.

Rhoda was stunning. She should have been cherished by the men in her life.

Valerie Harper was a WASP playing Jewish & husband Joe was a Jew playing an Italian. I’m not sure what Nancy Walker was, but she wasn’t Jewish.

[quote]As far as the son, I saw the MTM episode about "Stevie." He was such a fucking obnoxious brat, I don't care if they left him at the Port Authority.

But that was my big acting tour-de-force!

Nancy was a native of Blansky known for its great beauty.

Patsy Kelly was a drunk who reportedly killed a dog that Debbie Reynolds gave her when she sat on it. Nonetheless, her performances in "No, No, Nanette" and "Irene" were brilliant, hamfisted riots. In both shows, she called on all her vaudeville and burlesque skills and the audiences howled. I can see how she'd be too much for TV but she was also impressive in Rosemary's Baby.

Valerie Harper walked out and stayed home during the fourth season of Rhoda, complaining she was not getting enough money or in put in the show. After a couple of episodes without her, CBS caved to her demands and she returned. The network then canceled the show midway during the 5th season.

Harper tried the same thing a few years later on her Valerie/Hogan Family show. This time her ploy failed and the network killed her character off. (Although Harper won a lawsuit over it. )

Anyway, Harper got the reputation of being difficult to work with, and it sounds somewhat deserving. She never had another success on TV or films.

Much later in her career she made a hit out of the play Looped, about Tallulah Bankhead, on Broadway. But came down with brain cancer, after failing to win a Tony, and had to bow out early. The producers lost their money but couldn't complain.

By some miracle, Harper's cancer went into recession and she's still alive today, not doing anything of note. I don't think anyone wants her.

While David Groh was handsome, he was a terrible actor. For most of it's run, Rhoda was better than 90% of the shit sitcoms that were on in the 80's.

thought it was a great show as was MTM. As a side note, in real life Nancy Walker was an extremely close friend of Monty Clift in the 1950 s and 60s and was one of the few friends that hung on until he died..................a slow motion suicide basically

Joe Gerard didn't have great writing. I don't think even Dusty Hoffman could make it work.

I think it was so amazing that they wrote the wedding episode (which EVERYONE stayed home to watch--it was a HUGE ratings success) to showcase the comic talents of Cloris Leachman. That episode was all about her.

In some ways, she may have been the most talented comedienne of all the MTM Show women. But they were all brilliant.

Nancy Walker "was born in 1922 as Anna Myrtle Swoyer in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania[.]" "Walker was a Democrat who supported Adlai Stevenson's campaign during the 1952 presidential election[.]"

Info from NYT obituary (posted below) and Wikipedia. I couldn't find any info on what religion, if any, she was.

R106 Holy shit! Nancy Walker was only 69 when she died? Now that I'm in my early 60s, that seems too young. She was in her mid 50s when she did Rhoda. Didn't Brenda refer to her an 'old woman' more than once?

I was also shocked to see that Paul Lynde died at 55 but that's for another thread

Shut up R92, I loved NYC in the seventies.

David Groh [italic]was[/italic] quite fugly. Eventually he learned to turn it to his advantage. For example:

David Groh was so hot. A proto-Steve Guttenberg.

The nice thing about Rhoda is that it always felt like it was really set in Manhattan. "New York, this is your last chance." A sitcom like Friends is the diametric opposite of that.

At the height of the show's popularity, Mad Magazine did a Rhoda parody called 'Rhodent.'

Agree about Friends, R111.

Interesting fact: Nancy Walker was a close friend of Montgomery Clift's.

As a young gayling, the sight of David Groh’s bare chest on “Rhoda” sent me into orbit. He was so fucking hot and handsome.

Same here, r114.

Nancy Walker was a darling of the gay male community. Rock Hudson adored her. When she left McMillan and Wife, Rock was bored with the series. When the producers hired Martha Raye, Rock was so excited and happy. He adored her, too, like many other gay men.

Martha and Nancy were very protective of Rock Hudson. Martha hated Marc Christian, Rock’s boyfriend. She read his beads from day one. He was a user, and a ne’er do well. (Though Rock was wrong for not informing Marc Christian of his health status.)

R113, we've been through that. Try reading the thread to prevent looking like an idiot.

Cheers!

R113, I bet you haven’t been laid in a year.

Groh during this show would make a hot top daddy for sure.

That was for R117, not for R113.

........

Since I'm an ancient eldergay, I vaguely remember the whole brouhaha over the divorce at the time. There was a lot of press about how viewers didn't like the new married Rhoda and wanted the old single Rhoda who dated losers and came home to binge on ice cream after each bad date.

>>>>

I remembered reading in some bio that Nancy Walker was the ultimate fag hag while in New York. If there was a gay guy, she wanted to bed him.

"Martha hated Marc Christian, Rock’s boyfriend. She read his beads from day one. He was a user, and a ne’er do well."

Boy, SHE was one to pass judgement on Rock Hudson's boyfriends! Her decades younger gay as a goose last husband was the very definition of "a user and ne'er do well."

"we've been through that. Try reading the thread to prevent looking like an idiot.

Cheers!"

You sound like a very miserable cunt. Tootles!

Nancy Walker...gay?I thought she had daughters and was notoriously married to a bastard.Don't ask where i got that from...smh

Y’all are idiots. I meant the character of Mary pegged Joe. Not in real life.

So did I, r108. 72nd and Broadway was my stop. I lived at 75/Riverside.

Nancy Walker actually wasn’t Jewish, either. Harold Gould, Julie Kavner, and David Groth were the Jews in the cast.

Please add me to the David was HOT team.

Joe looked like Sonny Corleone.

The problem with the show was Rhoda’s marriage, because it radically changed Rhoda from the character we had loved on MTM, compounded by the astonishing lack of chemistry between Harper and Groh.

James Caan. Oooof!

I liked Sonny Corleone, r132.

Is "oooof!" a good thing, r134?

Nancy Walker totally photo bombed the show back in that day. That voice and character. The Estelle Getty of her time.

There was a gay bar in Laguna Beach for years called the Little Shrimp. One summer in the 70s, Rock and Martha came in. No one bothered Rock, and Martha was a riot. There was a piano player/singer, and Martha took out her teeth to mime along.

R136 You bet it is.

More for you, r139. I find him as appealing as, well, David Groh.

R92 That was James Brooks who got on the subway car before Rhoda.

Joe sucked on Rhoda. David Groh was as unappealing and unfunny as can be. He worked better as D.L. Brock on General Hospital.

The episodes without Joe are tolerable, and some of them are good.

It was funny when, in the final four episodes, in a last ditch attempt to save the show they gave Rhoda her very own Lou Grant type to work for.

A younger (I doubt she was ever young) Nancy Walker on What's My Line?

I'm sure that even Nancy Walker could agree that this album cover, while probably seeming funny at the time, deserved the award for the worst cover of all time!

Too jewish.

r144 Him too.

The show got boring after the wedding to Joe...

Joe's chest hair was better then knotty James Caans..... Joe's was sexy,Caans was matted and freakish looking. There is no comparison. Joe wins by a mile.Sexiest chest hair on television barnone.

R134 pic - odd seeing a guy wearing underwear while taking a bath... otherwise The Gambler was a good movie.

"...they gave Rhoda her very own Lou Grant type to work for."

Yes, though Jack Doyle (Kenneth McMillan) was no Lou Grant. He was a cantankerous asshole with no charm or appeal. Another nail in the "Rhoda" coffin.

I don’t remember how long the Phyllis spin-off lasted...not much longer than Rhoda?

[quote]By the last season, the show was basically running on fumes. Hell, they didn't even bother airing any more first-run episodes after about mid December of the last season. They weren't shown until it went into syndication.

It and [italic]Good Times[/italic] went down together.

[quote]Did you not watch "Will & Grace?"

No, R54, and painfully unfunny dialogue exchanges like that are why. Even this show’s worst episodes can’t possibly be that bad.

But if Shout! Factory was able to get remastered versions of [italic]Rhoda[/italic] out of Fox only because season 1 looked such a mess on DVD (edited, unremastered episodes) what happened to the last season of [italic]Lou Grant[/italic]? It disappeared from the Fox vaults entirely and they needed to resort to home recordings to release it.

Phyllis ran for two full seasons, 24 episodes each. That's like three of today's seasons.

All this information and not 1 sizemeat report. DL'ers your falling off.Sizemeat reports should be a necessity on this site.

As a master sizemologist, my assessment of Groh is that he was 7-7.5 inches, very thick, and ridiculously, obscenely, mouth-wateringly hairy.

Who was that actor with Cloris in the photo at R154? I seem to remember the name Carmine Caridi or something like that. Now HE was my type!

Now I know why subsequent sitcoms let characters who were dating do so for a couple of years before getting married.

The night Rhoda went off the air SNL addressed it by having Gilda Radner come on Weekend Update as Rhoda; Bill Murray interviews her; Gilda had the scarf on her head. She said it was anti-Semitism and Bill says, but Valerie you're NOT Jewish and the President of CBS is so....

God Bless, Gilda. She was brilliant; she, as Valerie as Rhoda, acted confused...funny bit. Otherwise a quiet, abrupt end to perhaps TV's most popular second banana (after Vivian Vance.)

Groh had an ugly body. No ass with a thick torso and spindly arms and legs.

R151 "Phyllis" lasted two seasons, and I believe the ratings for the first season were very good, the second not great, but not terrible. I've seen the entire show in re-runs and have watched a copy I got elsewhere, and it holds up mainly because of its supporting cast (her family & step relatives): Henry Jones (delightfully droll), Jane Rose (dingy but cutting), and of course, Judith Lowry, the Estelle Getty of her time. The first season started off badly because Barbara Colby was murdered and replaced by Liz Torres, and in the second season, Jane Rose became ill, and Lowry died (as did recurring player Burt Mustin) after Mother Dexter & her boyfriend married, basically a repeat of the "Rhoda" wedding incident.

The second season lacked the spark because Phyllis's job working for the city council wasn't as amusing as her working for photographer Julie, and a lot of airtime was taken up focusing on her job. Judith Lowry had played two different characters on "Maude", and I'm sure the creators of "Phyllis" thought she'd be perfect as the one constantly taking her down a peg or two.

[quote]She said it was anti-Semitism and Bill says, but Valerie you're NOT Jewish and the President of CBS is so....

And he let [italic]One Day at a Time[/italic] and [italic]Alice[/italic], whose female leads actually were Jewish in real life, run nine years each.

Did Val get Wendy Schaal fired from both It's a Living and Fantasy Island?

She never worked for Witt-Thomas-Harris or Aaron Spelling, so I doubt it.

Linda Lavin appeared on both "Rhoda" & "Phyllis" as different characters.

“Eventually I ran to Minneapolis, where it’s cold and I figured I’d keep better.” -RM

I always loved that joke.

Sandy Duncan would have made a great Rhoda.

Groh was very reminiscent of The Big Ragoo on Laverne and Shirley but he didn't have the warmth of Eddie Mekka.

"Phyllis" was a YUUUUUUGE hit for the first half or so of its first season. I watched an episode or two at the time and stopped.

They had a good marriage until the writers decided they didn't.

[R165]....they quickly realized "Alice"was a bitter,scene stealer much like in "All About Eve" and showed her the door.

R171, she was horrible in both shows and also had a guest shot on Barney Miller. I wondered who she was fucking to get so many high profile guest roles but she was so unattractive I couldn't figure it out.

Linda Lavin was sensational on Alice, so whether she was good or not on Rhoda etc is totally mute at this point.

I didn't like Lars on "Phyllis ",he was boring.But the show was funny as meangirl Phyllis struggled with being nice.

[R156]...Bless you for that sizemeat update on David...Muriel and rest of you tarts,get on your jobs ladies.Sizemeat data is important on Data Lounge.

Oh......

"totally mute at this point"

I'm the only one totally mute at this point.

R175 "Lars" was never on Phyllis. He was dead. In fact, he was never on "The Mary Tyler Moore Show"; He was the equivalent of Phyllis Diller's husband, "Fang".

R174, Lavin gave one of the least funny lead performances in history as Alice. As noted many times, if she played Ann Romano on ODAAT, that might have been interesting.

Linda Lavin was not one of my favorites, but she was fabulous on one of the better episodes of Rhoda. Lavin played the superior mean girl from Rhoda's school days , reappearing and making Rhoda jump through hoops because she was so scared of her even as an adult.

R181, another episode where Lavin was completely miscast. I think she even wore a blonde wig. The most interesting thing about her performance was that she had sweat stains under her arms on her silk dress.

Television was so bad in the 70s.

R184 It sucked in the early 80’s also..

All Joe ever did was complain. I’m tired and hungry when I come home from work, babe. I need some space babe. Your parents annoy me, babe.

And David Groh was ugly. He wasnt tremendously talented — witness his post-Rhoda careef. He was no Dustin Hoffman or Al Pacino. He yelled his lines a lot.

Harold Gould in R66 photo... quite handsome back then. Very distinguished..

In fairness r186 all of the Norman Lear shows yelled their lines. Why he thought that yelling line delivery was okay on an MTM show says more about the director then Groh's ability-or lack thereof.

It's ridiculous to compare David Groh to James Caan. Caan is an asshole, but was a very good actor and at one time was handsome and hot as hell. David Groh was neither.

Hello, this is Carlton, your doorman.

[R179]

If Lars was dead,how was he able to have an affair with Sue Ann Niven?That episode was Betty White at her best...

Phyllis never referenced him as deceased,he was always just the snobby dermatologist with alot of hangups.Which Phyllis went on and on about. Even Beth talked about her father...

Lars is fine. He sends his love.

R191 - on MTM Lars was alive - but never seen - just talked about. That’s an old sitcom trope - some secondary characters are built up to such extremes by a spouse complaining about them that it would be a let down for the audience to finally actually see them.

The Morey Amsterdam character on The Dick Van Dyke Show has a wife Pickles who was much talked about but appeared only once, because of this.

On Phyllis the Lars character had died and Phyllis and Bess had moved to San Francisco. I think Phyllis might have moved in with some of his family - she had some connection to the Dexters, but I haven’t seen the show since I was a kid.

R180 I never got the impression from Alice, that the character of Alice was supposed to be funny, just that she was supposed to be the gently humorous "straight man" hub around which other funny characters and situations revolved.

I also believe Linda Lavin thought otherwise.

R193 Pickles actually showed up in more than one episode of DVD, and she was played by more than one actress.

Vera on Cheers might be the most famous example of this...

Sure, r196.

[quote]In fairness [R186] all of the Norman Lear shows yelled their lines. Why he thought that yelling line delivery was okay on an MTM show says more about the director then Groh's ability-or lack thereof.

I would have liked to seen [italic]Rhoda[/italic] and [italic]Good Times[/italic] switch production companies just to see what you get. Those both started good but then fell apart once the male lead left. But John Amos was and is a far better actor than David Groh.

Anyone remember the show David did around 1978 called [italic]Another Day[/italic]?

Morty Drescher should have remained unseen. Steve Lawrence seemed too appealing in the role, not as I imagined him based on how he was described.

Somehow Fran's father was a first rate crooner? Um, okay.

Wrong thread, R199

R25 mentioned "The Three B's" musical number with a young Nancy Walker...… since I looked it up I decided to shortcut it for someone else and link it directly.

That such a great number, r201.

Nancy Walker looked lovely on “Rhoda”. She was exquisitely dressed and she rocked with those flattering and beautiful headbands.

The Mad Magazine parody had Nancy Walker eventually morphing into Golda Meir.

Nancy in her big late 50's musical, "Copper & Brass", running a very lengthy 36 performances.

Rhoda always had a schmatte on her head

I think they were try8ng to make it a fashion fad, but truly, few women wanted to put so much on their heads in the 70s.

Plus, it was difficult to coordinate your schmatte with the rest of your wardrobe.

Looks-wise, David Groh does remind me of James Caan. That's a good comparison.

"Looks-wise, David Groh does remind me of James Caan. That's a good comparison."

They both were furry and had curly hair. That's where the similarities end. James Caan was so much better looking. And much more talented.

David Groh looked like someone took a wide hammer to James Caan’s face and disfigured it forever and made it 3x as big as it used to be.

R196 Also Niles wife Marris on Frasier. In the same vein, the neighbor on "Home Improvement" and Carlton your Doorman were never seen, but they did interact with the series regulars.

Funny both David Groh and James Caan are Jewish guys from New York - Groh from Brooklyn, Caan from Queens, and born in 1939-40.

Caan and Bette Midler absolutely LOATHED each other while making "For the Boys." Ryan Murphy should do a "Feud" about them.

R214, forget For The Boys, do one on Jinxed where EVERYONE hated Midler.

Did Bette Midler get along with anybody?

Her husband on her show left because he couldn't take it anymore.

I thought they replaced him with a hotter version, r216. Was it really his idea to leave?

Yes, that is what I remember.

Spin City.

I didn't know Harper walked out on RHODA too, but this is a fascinating article about the Hogans and mentions her RHODA walkout.

Vera, Norm's wife on Cheers actually appeared on the Thanksgiving episode that devolved into a food fight, only her face was covered in pie so you nhever got to see it.

Stevie was not Joe's son on that MTM episode. Lawrence Luckingbill played Mary's bf and he was Stevie's dad. The kid was played by Lee Harcourt Montgomery who was the kid in that rat movie Ben.

The more you know.....

Any of you bitches remember this parody of Rhoda on the Carol Burnette Show? I loved the line about Halloween.

[quote]The more you know.....

What I know is how to spell "Laurence." And "Luckinbill."

And you also know how to be the "spell check" cunt but you already knew that.

"The kid was played by Lee Harcourt Montgomery who was the kid in that rat movie Ben."

Well...if he was in a RAT MOVIE, I still think they should have dropped him off in the 1970s Port Authority!

I liked her colorful head scarves.

R221 That was George Wendt's wife wearing the pie.

R221, this is Lee Montgomery today. He was also the love interest of Sarah Jessica Parker in Girls Just Want To have Fun.

Why is EVERYBODY in show biz jewish?????

When I first saw RHODA in all caps I thought it was Real Housewives of ...DA?

Yes, the Real Housewives of Damascus, Rose!

[quote]Why is EVERYBODY in show biz jewish?????

Because their mothers are Jewish.

r232 stole that from an old joke:

Why are so many doctors Jewish? Because their mothers are.

R214 - Caan & Fay Dunaway absolutely LOATHED each other while making “The Yards”.

Ya know, ya know, ya know...

R234, Caan and Alan Arkin absolutely LOATHED each other during the making of "The Plotz."

I was watching X files last night and who should show up but David Groh??!! Still looked great (although the episode is from 1997). I always loved him on Rhoda and was very pleasantly surprised to see him. He plays a protective Orthodox Jewish father whose daughter has just summoned a Golem after her fiance is murdered. Solid episode.

Here he is.

Maybe Rhoda and Joe should have had a baby.

I personally like Rhoda more than MTM, it's not as good of a show, but my personal favorite.

I must defend the series, only the last season was actually bad.

After the divorce it picked up again with great supporting characters like Anne Meara and that lounge singer Johnny Venture.

What made me love it, was the long comic monologues they would give Harper, about one an episode, that were shot without cutting away, like live theater. Harper was at her best and funniest during those moments.

Why didn't Anne Meara work out on Rhoda or on Archie Bunker's Place? She was a great actress!

Didn’t Ben Stiller inherit his cuntiness from Anne?

Valerie Harper was one of the first Covid-19 deaths. Of course it was covered up and claimed it didn't come into existence before Dec of 2020 but that is a lie.

I absolutely love "Rhoda", and have binged the entire series multiple times, but avoid most of the Joe episodes. My favorites are those without him.