'Gentleman Jack' TV Series

Gemma Jones is reprising her role as Aunt Lister from the 2010 BBC movie The Secret Diaries of Miss Anne Lister. Anyone seen that one?

Coded?

Looks interesting.

I'm looking forward to it.

I love Gemma Jones. Didn't really like the first series, though.

The woman playing this Lister is totally gorgeous.

(Give me a break with those curls. How would they have done that without hair product in that time?)

Oh good. Scott and Bailey finally make out.

Tuhggu

Poor Edith.

Reviews seem good for the most part. The two reviewers who didn't enjoy it say it's meandering and has some problems when it comes to Anne's characterisation.

I still don't have HBO.

It looks interesting, I'd heard of Lister before and she seemed like someone I'd enjoy watching in action.

I'll give this one a try.

It's on at 10pm Monday

I love Suranne Jones. She was so good in Doctor Foster.

Ggv x ttb yg

I will be watching. Looks fun.

The trailer looks great

Same writer/producer Sally Wainwright as Happy Valley and Last Tango in Halifax so I'm in!

Happy Valley is one of the best series ever. I can't wait to see this.

Suranne Jones was on Coronation Street for a while.

She was fantastic in Scott & Bailey. Very sexy and a fuck up.

I hope it’s good and intend to watch it, but Sally Wainwright needs to get back to writing a new series of Happy Valley.

Amazing true story. This woman wrote detailed descriptions of her life and lady loves in a code she devised. The code that remained unbroken till the 1930s but the writings were so scandalous they were not made public till 1980s. Lister traveled widely and wrote commentary on the people and places she encountered. The books are now considered a UNESCO Memory of the World treasure.

I love the female star, who I'm familiar with from the BBC hit Doctor Foster, a fantastic melodrama with 2 seasons on Netflix.

Looks good

Isn’t this just another retelling of that Glenn Close embarrassment, Albert Nobbs?,

How was that? This one has Suranne Jones though.

r26 Haven't seen it but wasn't that movie more of a trans thing? This show on the other hand is about a lesbian.

Bumping this thread since some sad queen posted a new one.

The new search function is SO BAD that the person who wrote the thread probably couldn't find this one.

On tonight!

What a delightful hour of television that was and I can't wait to see more. The lead is just amazing in every way. Her character could so easily come across as an obnoxious know-it-all, but she's nothing of the sort. Just a whip-smart enterprising woman who knows exactly what she wants and gets shit done like a boss.

The Hastings flashbacks were incredible; so much conveyed with so little. Loved Anne's casual hookup with her lesbian fuck buddy as well.

Had no idea Gemma Whelan (Yara from GoT) would be playing her sister. I love how she's as smart as Anne but Anne dismisses her in much the same way Marian dismisses Anne.

Albert Knobbs was awful, but the story is quite different from this series.

This was very entertaining. And there are a couple of cute guys in it as well. High hopes that it will continue to be good!

First episode was really good!

I love how Anne said Dr Kenny's mincing walk makes her suspicious. She sussed out immediately after one glance that he's after Ann Walker and so sent him away to tend to the horse. "Tick-tock." That fortune is going to be hers, damn it!

Doctor Foster was also responsible for giving the world the brilliant Jodie Comer, now to be seen in the wonderful Killing Eve.

She wasn’t that brilliant in Doctor Foster.

I watched the first episode with my mother and I share the same opinion as she did after viewing it: "Well, that was an interesting show." LOL.

Suranne sure plays a great lesbian. I love the male period clothes she wears but it seems strange that she wore her hair with those horrid feminine side curls and her sister doesn't. She seems close to her parents especially her mother. The horse shooting was heartbreaking as was the scene with her lover with the fiancée. Anne Lister was certainly a fascinating character for that time.

[quote]She seems close to her parents especially her mother.

You mean Gemma Jones? I think that's her aunt (sister of Anne's dead uncle who left Anne the estate), while the older man is her father (also the dead uncle's brother). Someone please correct me on this if I'm wrong.

Yes, that's her aunt, not her mother

R40 & R41 - Thanks for clearing that up.

r41 Thanks. I see Anne's father's name is Jeremy Lister, so it was definitely Anne's mother who married into the Lister family.

That was very sad when she started wailing in her lover’s lap.

"Donald's asked me to marry him. I shan't say no."

With those simple words, their love affair was over. I agree with r44 that it was very sad watching her break down like that, after that strong front we had been seeing until that moment. The little chat with her aunt afterwards was also very emotional, but in a warm way.

Chick Magnets on “Gentleman Jack” and “Killing Eve”

[quote]In a world dumb enough to see women as helpless little girls, two series examine the masks they wear in public.

^ interesting article

I loved the first episode and agree the acting was perfect and the writing sharp as anything Sally Wainwright writes. I loved the supporting cast, including a woman I've seen in Unforgiven (something I watch when I want to cry--Mary) and in Hunderby. Looked it up: Rosie Cavaliero.

If you haven't watched Scott & Bailey give it a shot. The other supporting role on Gentleman Jack that thrilled me was played by Amelia Bullmore, the friend who gossipped at a fast clip about the main character all while seeming to praise her. Very funny actress.

[quote]The other supporting role on Gentleman Jack that thrilled me was played by Amelia Bullmore, the friend who gossipped at a fast clip about the main character all while seeming to praise her. Very funny actress.

That one caught my eye as well. So fab.

So she’s a lesbo?

R50 Did you miss that bit where she had her hand up another woman's pussy?

Gorgeous promo pic.

I liked it, but question her aggressive striding every single time she moves. She needs to refine it with some cane work here and there.

R53 Indeed. And she'd be better off replacing the horse-drawn carriage with a Subaru, which I think happens next week.

Fiddlesticks. A proper lesbian of her time would have known how to work a cane with flair in certain situations. The actress chooses to express her character's energy and rejection of traditional womanly style by aggressively striding all the damn time, whether it's two steps from a table to a chair, or a doorway to a bed. I'd like to see a little lumbering, at least. Nobody strides everywhere.

I love watching her stride outside and her dark coat blowing all around her. It's quite a sight.

It's entirely unrealistic. As if any lesbian in history ever wore footwear that wasn't Birkenstocks.

Haven’t watched it so, no, haven’t seen the hand up the puss shot. Just trying to get a synopsis.

r58 The first paragraph of the article I posted at r46 is a nice synopsis.

[quote]Born in 1791, in Yorkshire, England, Anne Lister was a globe-trotting lesbian who dressed all in black. Her neighbors called her Gentleman Jack; in private, she was Fred. The eldest daughter of a posh family, Lister was a rarity, a female landowner, whose inherited property gave her the freedom to live as she pleased—which she did, studying anatomy, going mountaineering, and even marrying a woman, in a church. She kept a diary, too: four million words, with a subset written in a secret “crypthand.” When that code was cracked (the diaries having been found, then hidden again, by a closeted gay descendant), it turned out to be a detailed account of her seductions. An orgasm was a “kiss,” sex with a woman was “going to Italy.”

When does she buy a 16 wheeler?

Waiting for the "Let's be a lesbian drama in the late 19th century" thread.

Amazing conversation with Suranne Jones & Sally Wainwright, courtesy of SAG-AFTRA.

The diaries are apparently still being decoded and transcribed to this day as they're just so extensive. And the fast walk comes directly from the source!

Just watched it, thanks to this thread. Very enjoyable.

Really enjoyed that first episode and looking forward to more. I trust Sally Wainwright will go far beyond your everyday bodice-ripper.

What a dumb show. I hate it when they ruin period pieces like this by killing the authenticity. People don’t want to watch a show about a rug muncher.

R65, "rug muchers" existed in the past. This is based on the diaries of a real woman. You sound like as fundie bigot, if you don't like lesbians why did you watch the show in the first place?

I don’t have nothing against lezzies. I just don’t want to watch them on the TV. They can do whatever they want in private but when they start putting their bushes on the television I just don’t need to see that shit. Keep it in the bedroom.

R67, why did you watch the show, then?

Because I thought it was going to be a historical story not a lawn mower tale.

R69

Play in traffic Trumptard

Great interview. They really took their time answering the questions. I can't wait for the rest of the series to unfold. I love S. Wainwright. Is she gay?

r71 Married to Austin Sherlaw-Johnson since 1990. Two kids.

A... a man?

A man, yes.

I went on a few primary school trips to Shibden Hall in the 90s. From what I remember they always focused on the authentic Tudor dining room rather than mentioning all the lesbian sex. Wonder if they mention Lister now that times have changed.

r75 That's also what Sally Wainwright said towards the start of the conversation at r62 - that she had been to Shibden many times in the past and no one ever talked about Anne Lister. That was in the '70s, although I'm sure it wasn't that much different in the '90s. I hope this show changes that.

Lister was born almost 100 years before Radclyffe Hall.

AL born: April 3, 1791 RH born: August 12, 1880

Interesting to know she's rushing about like that based on the character's actual way of walking. And I forgive all, since she flourished a cane in tonight's episode.

r14, yes I knew I saw this actress before. That was Doctor Foster.

Anne Lister was the original cane-carrying lesbian!

If she was born today, she'd be FTM transgender.

Big pussyhound. Huge Lord Liverpool supporter.

How many episodes in before she starts wearing trousers?

I'm in love with this show already. That teatime with Amelia Bullmore with the grapes and the figgs and the gooseberries on the table is my idea of heaven - a stylish kaffeeklatsch that lasts an eternity.

Loved the scene with the Listers during lunch; the glances and the interjections alone reveal so much about their family dynamic. Marian getting some soup caught in her eye just by blowing on it was hysterical.

That guy saying "A wee means yes? What's a no then?" was funny and oh so relatable for anyone learning a foreign language for the first time. And the way Anne pronounced "ensign" tickled me.

Love most of the sets on this show and the airy way in which they're lit, except for the dark and dreary Shibden Hall. Ann Walker apparently lived in a shed but that wasn't cinematic enough and wouldn't have conveyed her wealth, so Wainwright put her in this golden cage.

That story Anne told her about why Parisian men have holes in their pockets made [italic]me[/italic] blush! Now imagine a delicate English lady hearing that shit.

Loving the brilliant Gemma Whelan in this.

OF COURSE it's about lesbians. 100 % sure a show like this would NEVER be made about gays. Lesbians on the other hand are a dime a dozen because they're jerk off material for straight men.

"I love the male period clothes she wears but it seems strange that she wore her hair with those horrid feminine side curls and her sister doesn't."

Actually, the kind of side curls she wears aren't feminine, women of that era had long dangling ringlets on either side of the face. The sort of side curls she wears were actually characteristic of the men's wigs of the late 18th century, and are intended to be manly... although in a way that would have been decades out of date.

R87, there are more shows about gay men, gay men are more likely to be writers or directors or producers than lesbians

Yeah, don't be such a little sulky-pants, R87. It can't all be about you.

R6, there are a lot of tutorials on YouTube about how women styled their hair in those complicated styles back then.

The 1830s was actually a very feminine period for men's fashions.

Fashionistas of the time actually wore corsets to affect a wasp waist for their closely fitted waistcoats and jackets and trousers were heavily pleated into waistbands to create fuller hips. Frock coats had bell-shaped skirts. Sleeves were also pleated into shoulders to create a leg of mutton shape, not unlike those of women's dresses of the period. And hair was often curled high over the temples.

So Lister affecting men's styles was not quite as outrageous as it might seem today.

Lister was a real pussyhound. I wonder if some of these women she bedded were mostly straight until she seduced them.

I'm guessing -- based on absolutely nothing at all, other than a hunch -- that Anne Lister is not the Only Gay in Halifax, that Christopher Rawson (the smarmier of the Rawson coal barons) is as well. First, there's his hilarious pompadour and second, when he was talking to Anne in the middle of his firm's lobby a seemingly strapping young buck walked past them and Rawson clearly noticed him. It was very tiny moment but perhaps a telling one. I'm also guessing he was driving the gig that caused the accident or at least knows who was.

LOVE this show. I wish there were 16 episodes instead of eight. This week's episode was worth it alone for the get-up Anne wore to Vere's wedding. (Sally Wainwright clearly took to heart Russell T Davies dictum about action heroes should wear long coats. See Davies' Capt. Jack on Torchwood and SHolmes on Sherlock -- a coat I still covet.)

And now I'm going to go cut holes in my pants pockets. TV! So educational!

r94 Interesting, I hadn't noticed that at all and will have to rewatch again. Do we have a problem with making the gay guy a villain in a lesbian story, though?

Loved her getup at the wedding (rocking a mourning dress like a boss!) and I loved how the director centered that hetero wedding on Anne, by holding the camera on her face almost exclusively. She's great throughout that scene but there's one particular moment when she obviously tells herself in her head "You got his" that was simply sublime. Her words to the former lover were so mature and full of wisdom, and of course she gets hit with that ancient nasty coded phrase "I'm not like that", meaning homosexual.

[quote]I wish there were 16 episodes instead of eight.

Same. I want to lose myself in Anne's charming little world over and over again, even if the show had nothing profound to say. I know some critics felt there could have been less coal talk, but watching Anne do just about anything feels so comforting and cosy and reassuring to me. I can't get enough of it!

I saw the Anne Lister movie from a few years ago and enjoyed it.

I don't even mind the "coal talk," R95. Because, like every Jane Austen novel and most of Trollope's, it's all about The Money -- even if you have it. I laughed out loud at how Anne figured the worth of an acre of her land to the Rawsons, down to the shilling, and would not take their shit. And yet she was so kind to the little boy who lost his leg, even when he flustered her by asking if she was a woman. "Erm, yes, I am a woman... a lady... a ladywoman." Hee!

The production and costume design here is absolutely stunning. And except for some of the bright colors on the various businessmen (which I love because they're so theatrical) I think it all looks very authentic.

Coal talk is also inevitable because what else is there to do around Shibden? Like Marian said, it's basically just a big old farm. *strategically insert cow noises here*

And I obviously meant "You got this", not "You got his" in my post at r96.

*Sorry, make that r95.

"Give me a break with those curls. How would they have done that without hair product in that time?"

People have been putting "product" in their hair for millenia. Everything from mud to macassar oil. The latter was especially popular during the Victorian age. They also used hot curling irons heated in the fire place.

[quote]Had no idea Gemma Whelan (Yara from GoT) would be playing her sister.

Love her. And loved her in the series Upstart Crow (as Kate)

I too wish there were many more episodes. I have the same reaction to any Sally Wainwright series: I realize how starved I am for well-written scenes between women, whether overtly gay or not. Happy Valley or Halifax or Gentleman Jack, same thing. The Amelia Bullmore gab session (mentioned earlier) was so well done. I couldn't figure out why Lister was eating her fruit so strangely, balancing the dish on her lap. Was she cutting lose with Bullmore in a display of physical ease? I presume the Bullmore character will turn out to be one of Lister's early lovers. Fuck I want to see Bullmore make out with a woman. Always did, since Scott & Bailey when she played the boss.

Is she going to spend 80% of every episode arguing about money?

Yes, that's probably what the real person did all day long, and yes, it was highly unusual for a woman of the time to manage her own finances instead of turning everything over to a "man of business". But I do NOT find it highly entertaining.

R104 - to get a true and fuller picture of the real Anne Lister, I think her business acumen had to be covered sometime in the series. Even though it bogged down the story (I find money/business talk quite boring myself), I think it needed to be shown to some degree. I just hope that the series delves into her personal life more than her professional life because she was quite an interesting character for her time. I do like stories with some character development.

[quote] Everything from mud to macassar oil. The latter was especially popular during the Victorian age.

That’s why they had doilies on the back of chairs and sofas. To absorb the macassar oil and prevent it getting on the furniture. My mother used to dye her hair at home and I wished I’d put one on the white chair she sat in when she visited. Her dye rubbed off on the back of the chair. I had. to get a new one after she died

[quote] it bogged down the story (I find money/business talk quite boring myself), I think it needed to be shown to some degree.

This was a time when women were NOT involved in anything related to money or business. It was scandalous for a woman to collect money. It shows that she clearly didn't need a man to run her business or to get rich or to maintain her wealth, she was in charge of her wealth and her business and everything else. I would have a hard time believing she could pursue women and be poor, her wealth allowed her a lot advantages and it's interesting to see how she managed it.

Yes, the financial management shows that she's very bright, afraid of no man, and able to hold her own in what was considered the "man's world" of finance.

But does it have to take up 75% of the dialogue? 25% would make for a better show, and would allow for more time for her medicine, traveling, interacting with her hilarious sister, and seducing pretty blondes.

I love this show but, frankly, I wish there was a little more plot, especially if there are only 4 more episodes. There's not much tension (except for how long before she beds the blonde).

R1 yes! I saw that one went it came out.

Big fan of Sally Wainwright and Suranne Jones. Unfortunately, the Wainwright/Jones combination that was brilliant in Scott & Bailey didn't come together in Gentleman Jack, and I gave the series away after 20 min.

r103 Anne was balancing the fruit dish on her thigh and Amelia had it in her lap. I guess that's just how it was done at the time. I didn't get the impression at all that those two were previously involved in a romantic or sexual way. Wouldn't Amelia be more direct with Anne when it comes to warning her against ensnaring Ann Walker if that were the case?

I adore the interactions between Anne and Marian. Feels exactly like watching myself trying to deal with my own sister.

R113 reminds me of how I love when they break the fourth wall. The sister does it, too. Hilarious.

I have sympathy for the sister, though.

And the music! Has anyone mentioned how great the modern scoring is for this?

I can't get over this simple scene with Amelia. Observe how dynamic this shot is because of the hand movements, despite both of them sitting down. Also, look at how ON Anne is at all times and how much she stands out, surrounded by all those pastels.

I bet these little chinwags were so rejuvenating back in the day.

I feel like I should watch this but I find Suranne Jones rather off-putting for some reason.

Okay, that was a LOT of kissing and fingering for a family show.

Joking aside, I just adored the way this episode ended. The clichéd way would be to have Ann Walker freak out and banish Anne out of her life until the two slowly reconciled a couple of episodes later. Did you see how systematically Anne was working her for her money? But she seemed to have fallen in love by the end of the episode so that should complicate the matters going forward.

Can't believe this is the second show in two months where the breaking of the fourth wall was addressed by the other character. First Fleabag Season 2, now this one. And both doing it independently.

Oh, and I also want a tiny little fuck cottage in the woods to lure in inexperienced (and preferably loaded) guys and have my way with them. Imagine how magical it must have felt back then when you happened upon another gay person like yourself, and actually hooked up with them?

Let's get HGTV on it. "Tiny Fuck Cottage."

I'd like mine by the sea.

Suranne Jones has always been a very good actress, but she's out of her depth here. And she looks like a creepily lecherous lesbian most of the time.

PS. Another "breaking the fourth wall" in a series was in the 2018 ITV's Vanity Fair, and the series was entertaining.

I forgot to mention the fabulously nosy Amelia Bullmore and her shocked face when she caught them [italic]in flagrante.[/italic] And of course another delightful spat between Anne and Marian during lunch.

r120 I wasn't talking about the fourth wall merely getting broken, but a character in the show noticing another character doing it. That's much more uncommon to see on TV.

Ffyuy

Suranne Jones is creepy in historical attire. I think that’s the main reason why Crimson Field was cancelled.

She came across as totally butch in The Crimson Field even though her character was supposed to be straight

r123 She looks fine to me? A bit like Eddie Redmayne in a wig, actually.

In other news, George R.R. Martin blogged the other day that he's enjoying the hell out of this show, so that's nice. I'm sure part of that is just sucking up to HBO execs (he praised Veep as well) and/or convincing people not to cancel HBO after GoT ends because he has spinoffs in development, but still. More people might check it out because of his shoutout.

Love the Eddie Redmayne comparison!

"Suranne" Jones: never give your child a name that looks like a typo

I thought the gory gruesome violence in episode three was ridiculous. HBO doesn't need to throw sickening violence into every single genre show.

You posters suck all the fun out of watching this series. What a phony bunch of pseudo-intellectuals.

R129, aren't you ruining this thread by being nasty to other posters for no reason?

r129 How so? I might be oversharing in my impressions after watching each episode but that's just because I love the show so much. Still, isn't that preferable to no discussion or to posts complaining that lesbians get all the TV shows these days?

Wow, thanks for ruining a good thread

Keep up the comments.....they help me find things I miss. I like the young guy in the house.....is he the brother of the man who is marrying the pregnant French girl?

The credits go by so fast.....and I can't tell on the IMDB credits page.....

Is it on HBO? I don't have HBO.

How many minutes into the episode was it before the first BBC historically authorised black person appeared?

[quote] I might be oversharing in my impressions after watching each episode but that's just because I love the show so much.

It’s a tv show, not your autistic child. Balance.

r136 So no thoughts on the show itself? Just calling the lead creepy-looking and offering weird ableist zingers? You might want to rethink your contribution to this discussion yourself.

r135 Aside from the mixed-race actress Albane Courtois, who is playing a French immigrant maid, there aren't any black actors or extras in this show. I'm sure you'll be ecstatic to learn that. So you got prematurely triggered for nothing, basically.

She has some serious abs going on, by the way.

R135, do you spend time complaining about other inaccuracies in period drama, like actresses wearing visible makeup or attractive actors playing people who were fug in real life?

Well, I know some Yorkshire pigs that are going to get shipped off to Deadwood in the Dakota Territory. Mr. Wu will be very appreciative. (I'm sure it's just coincidence, but that's two HBO shows that have/had man-eating pigs as a plot point.)

I was sorry to see Marian flounce off to visit relations elsewhere (and have tea with "trade" -- oh, the classist British, if he has land in Australia and New Zealand he's probably richer than you; I hope he shows up at Shibden Hall). I love Marian and Anne sniping at each other because they are both SO over each other's shit. While I'm less interested in the below-stairs marriage plot, I do love Miss Cordingley (she of just a little French) who is also over everyone's nonsense both upstairs and down.

I've only seen Amelia Bullmore in Twenty Twelve and Happy Valley, but she's hilarious as the nosy, if well-meaning, prisspot Mrs. Priestley. And she married a Doctor Who!

Well, Greta, whatever she is, she’s divine.

Amelia Bullmore married a Dr Who? Paul Higgins was a Dr. Who?

r142 I googled that connection the other day when r140 mentioned it but came up empty. Had more luck today - Bullmore's husband in this show is played by Peter Davidson!

It does seem that there is a finite number of British actors.

I don't think an actress who looks like Suranne Jones would find much work in the US entertainment industry and yet Suranne jumps nimbly from project to project in the UK.

They do value acting chops over mere looks in the UK, that's for sure. Still, I don't see anything about her looks that would be so off that she wouldn't be able to get gigs in the US if that's what she wanted.

r144 Professionally trained, sure. The other ones are legion.

I’m getting some of the old lady characters mixed up, though.

And I do really love how Anne is gruff but gentle - almost maternal - at the same time.

Suranne’s nose is a bit.....long. At first, I thought it might be a prosthetic.

I want to love this so much but I find I'm losing patience with some of the plot points.

Why would Anne be so upset that her maid would marry her handy man?

Why did the dear old aunt tell on sister Marian leaving to marry a man in trade?

Why would the unconventional Anne care about these things?

Who cares about the rights to Anne's coal fields?

How many times must we watch Anne and Miss Walker pet and neck with all those clothes on?

[quote]Why would Anne be so upset that her maid would marry her handyman?

That made no sense to me either. Why would she - of all people - be uptight about this sort of thing? Is she a man hater? A hetero hater?

[quote]Why did the dear old aunt tell on sister Marian leaving to marry a man in trade? Why would the unconventional Anne care about these things?

Because the aunt knows deep down Anne is the worldly one who makes shit happen and Marian is pretty much a sheltered little lamb at the end of the day. And she might have her own strong prejudices against "trade", masked as concern for Marian's well-being. Anne just perceives him as competition, especially if they end up having children. So Anne being against that suitor because he's trade is probably just a convenient excuse to nip the whole business in the bud.

[quote]Who cares about the rights to Anne's coal fields?

As the plot in the OP states, she wants to transform the fate of her faded ancestral home. You need serious hard cash for that. Also, the thought of men stealing her coal and all the while snickering and calling her names behind her back might be pissing her off.

[quote]How many times must we watch Anne and Miss Walker pet and neck with all those clothes on?

You want to see them undressed? I'm sure we'll get there eventually.

Intense episode, with next week's looking even more intense in the preview.

I appreciate that they didn't romanticise the coal mines but instead showed the appalling and exploitative conditions in which those men, women and children (!) were working.

More lesbian soft porn. Zzzzzzzz. Is everything on HBO lesbian now?

Rep. Sharice Davids is hooked as well, judging by her Twitter likes. I adore her.

This screenshot belongs in that "Do gay people walk faster?" thread I saw a month or so ago.

[bold]The Life And Loves Of Anne Lister[/bold]

[quote]Why did five million words detailing a secret lesbian life end up hidden behind the walls of a Yorkshire manor house?

Gorgeously illustrated article I found on the BBC website.

R152 must be a freeper

R149 and R150, it's an authentic and historically mainstream attitude about class and hierarchies that you probably aren't familiar with, as a modern person from a different kind of society. A person could buck every convention related to their sexuality and gender and still carry traditional beliefs that people are born of different classes and should behave accordingly. Even now, being gay doesn't exempt you from being sexist or racist or classist.

People didn't like their personal servants to marry and have families because they expected these servants to dedicate their lives to serving the master/mistress. And among servants there was a hierarchy, and certain classes of servants weren't supposed to "mix."

As for Marian, gentry marrying trade was an example of marrying out of one's class, which was frowned upon. People were expected to marry within their class, whatever it might be. Don't look at Downton Abbey as a documentary. It's packed with extreme anachronisms to make everyone acceptable to modern tastes.

A fun reality show on Netflix is "Weekend Aristocrat." Average Brits go spend a weekend at stately homes and chat with the owners. You get a taste of the moldy leftovers of class attitudes, with some of the old upper-class twits condescending to treat the guests like cute doggies, (and the guests lapping it up), and then if you listen, you hear the upper-class twits mention that they wouldn't want their children to marry a lower-class person.

I have only seen the first two episodes, but going by Anne's long speech at the dinner table about the virtues of being a Lister and how Shibden Hall is certainly NOT an old farm but the oldest grand house in Halifax etc. it's clear that she is very much a classist. I loved how Marian just rolled her eyes.

r157 I wrote my response prior to seeing last night's episode, which has now made it perfectly clear that these people are just snobs who don't want to be associated with "carpet makers", despite originating from trade themselves.

Can’t get past the coif on that mannish woman. I’ll pass.

r157, thanks for your explanation of the servant class system. I figured this was the case.....but what annoys me about the scene of Anne freaking out about her maid marrying her handy man (for want of a better term) was they're not somehow making your points clearer in her intentions. Now maybe this will become so in later episodes ( I haven't seen #4 yet).

For me, it's not about spelling all the details out but about establishing who Anne is and what her priorities are. And for someone who seems to be bucking every other rule in her society, this one point seems very inconsistent and contradictory.....and that could be interesting if they'd just develop it for us.

She gives a reason for that in the fourth episode. It's not the most convincing of reasons in my opinion, but she's the boss and I guess the world of Shibden revolves around her preferences.

I think I'm going to give up on the show.

Not because of all the money talk, not because I don't care about the romance between the servants, not because of Anne's hairstyle... but because I don't like her girlfriend.

Why the hell is that fabulous bitch wasting her time on that whiner? Sure, Miss Walker is lovely and hot in the sack, but she's weak, thoughtless, and neurotic. Not good wife material, unless you want someone you can completely dominate, and I never like being around people who are in relationships where one partner is that dominant.

I don't like the girlfriend either as she's so passive but... is Anne really spoiled for choice? I imagine finding an unattached LOADED lesbian (or a bisexual woman) in your area was a bit like winning the lottery back then.

[quote]Not good wife material, unless you want someone you can completely dominate

I gather that's Anne's plan, i.e. to bleed her dry in order to fund her coal business. The sex and the companionship is nice but what Anne clearly wants above all else right now is cold hard cash.

I think Anne wants the companionship more than the money, and yes, everyone knows that as people age the standards get lowered. Anyway, I think it's unfair to compare Ann Walker to Anne, as Anne was truly indomitable. Considering the socialisation of women at that time, Ann Walker probably wasn't particularly passive.

I don't know, she seemed pretty desperate for those funds when talking to her father. Even if she's fallen in love by now, exploiting Ann financially was her entire plan from the start, and that hasn't changed.

True, R165, but she's still annoying.

The scene with the Rawson mother was hilarious, and so was the scene with Mrs. Priestly admitting that what she saw happen between Anne and Miss Walker "had been mentioned".

I had to laugh at Ann Walker just crying constantly. I feel for her, certainly, being trapped in society's notions of what's expected, but I wanted Anne L to go all Bette Davis and grab her by the shoulders and just shake the shit out of her.

Glad the tenant family got to stay (although I'm not yet sure of the point of that C plot), because the patricidal son is cute. The scene between John Booth and Anne L taking a break from planting trees was lovely. And, yes, more of Mother Rawson, please. She knows which side everybody's bread is buttered on and isn't afraid to say it. I'd love a scene with her and Anne L.

I LOVE LESBIANS!!! Especially classy ones from the late 19th Century. Lesbians on DL, TAKE NOTES!!!!

If you read some of her diaries, Anne Lister preferred feminine women who she could mound to her tastes. She had a butch lover once, but wasn’t as emotionally attached. Her diaries are pretty racy!

The matriarch, Mrs Rawson (played by Sylvia Syms), is a FABULOUS creation, and I hope to see more of her.

Can you imagine a movie with Suranne and Adrian Brody?

THE NOSES!!!!!

r173 Ha! The Schnoz Showdown of it all!

There was a very short fantasy scene with a nude Miss Walker and Anne’s face in her snatch. Otherwise, the “romantic” scenes are a snooze.

That's Sylvia Syms? Wow, I didn't even recognize her

R161 - I think Anne Lister is afraid that if her French maid marries her handyman, she'll lose her. The handyman is a widower with children and the maid will probably become a full time wife and mother.

I thought that was a flashback to her with one of her old lovers, R175.

r178 Yeah, that was one of her hookups back in Paris.

Yep, right after she said she was there to "study anatomy."

Great great great show, Suranne’s popularity will skyrocket. Everyone is watching this little sleeper. Love this thread! Couple responses to posters:

R113 your Giphy is the best thing for any woman ever. Thank you.

R114 I think the breaking of the 4th wall is a beautiful nod to her diaries - which if you read them are everything. So little has been accomplished in publishing them. They are pretty racey, even if olde English.

R119 “A tiny fuck cottage by the sea.” I feel inspired!

R136 have some compassion - we Lezzie’s have never had a prime time heroine quite like Anne Lister - she is worth ALL the Adoration!

R151 nice thoughtful post about the kids and adults working in coal mines. Fortunately like everything Trump touches (but not the White Nationalist racist shit which he excels at) he cant quite manage to bring back coal. However various parts of the GOP are working hard at overturning child labor laws.

About Listers walking - there were no gyms. Walking was it, swimming in skirts that could drown you was an option. Face it the road to health in that period was exercise. Otherwise it was leeches and poultices if you fell ill - however they did have the early skin scratching inoculations to lessen Small Pox and other communicable diseases. So she walked - also it was a nice way to be alone with her lady friends away from prying eyes and eavesdropping. Quite an opportunity for seduction.

Anne Lister was not only interested in learning rudimentary medicine and autopsy anatomies, according to her diaries she spent a fair amount of time studying her own experience with sexual pleasure. In other words ladies - she took notes, had paid serious attention to those actions that were pleasurable to herself and put them to very good use. If any of the Bi-curious were open, intelligent enough to be intrigued - let alone fall for her - she was was extremely adept in pleasure. Remarkable in a time when women knew hardly anything about their bodies except child birth. No wonder those that left her for marriage inevitably came back around. Too bad for you Mariana Belcome Lawton, Vere Hobart you totally blew it with Donald. Lister was extremely intelligent, thrilling, confidante and none that she was interested in were ever bored - thats for sure.

Walker actually was a lesbian - she was literally sheltered by her wealth and kept that way by grasping relatives. Lister needed financial security -her estate had not yet developed income from coal. Also Walkers lifelong attraction to Lister was real - her remark that Lister should go to the wedding because she might come away with new perspective was correct. Thanks to that new attitude Lister was able to dump Vere Hobart with class and penache to her own satisfaction. There is something to be said for that. Lister fell for her absolutely. How cool is it that she fell for the girl next door and it more or less worked out?

Later on Walker apparently did revert to her crabby ways - though Lister stayed in the marriage

Lastly, I LOVE this show! Anne Lister is a woman for our times. #RESIST #INSIST #PERSIST #ENLIST One hella Lesbian that can inspire us all.

This is a really interesting take on “Gentleman Jack” in the age of Trump, and cruel treatment of sexual violence women experience in the media these days.

Did anyone else get a kick out of the way Anne pronounced the word "sex" in the first episode while she was complaining about how the reform bill explicitly excluded her from voting because of her sex? That one word she said in such a lusty way while looking at Ann Walker. She sure has no qualms about hitting on women in front of her family.

Another favorite comedic moment was Marian complaining about Anne cheating her out of her inheritance through "nefarious machinations....ohhhh yes!!".

r181 Your post was a delightful read.

[quote]have some compassion - we Lezzie’s have never had a prime time heroine quite like Anne Lister - she is worth ALL the Adoration!

That poster was berating me and I'm a gay guy (also the OP of this thread) who happens to get quickly caught up in exciting fresh TV stuff that hasn't been done before. It just so happens the show is about lesbians this time around, though I became similarly enraptured by Vida last year (that one returns next week).

So let it not be said that the gays don't watch and support (and gif and screengrab the shit out of) lesbian shows. It's just a great show, that's all there is to it.

I love that Anne's character isn't entirely lovable. I want realistic, not perfect. I can't wait for more sex scenes. Walker's character isn't an innocent. She's watched everyone around her watching her, and she was lusting after Lester for years, as she told her.

Something about Bullmore's voice that is so precisely between scandalized and titilated. That's what made me wonder if she hadn't dabbled herself, but after seeing her shit her pants about witnessing the two Ann(e)s go at it made me reconsider and settle on simple resentment and jealousy under all that seeming outrage.

Well I rather enjoyed tonight's show. Was very good.

Tonight's? Doesn't it air on Mondays?

[bold]HBO Co-Pro ‘Gentleman Jack’ Becomes BBC’s Biggest New Drama Launch Of 2019[/bold]

[quote]Gentleman Jack has become the BBC’s biggest new drama launch of the year and the British broadcaster most successful new scripted series since Jenna Coleman-fronted psychological thriller [italic]The Cry.[/italic]

[quote]The HBO co-production, which stars Suranne Jones, scored an average of 5.1M viewers with a peak of 5.6M on Sunday night in a 9pm slot. It secured an average share of 27.2% across the hour.

[quote]This comes after Coleman’s Australian-set drama averaged 5.7M viewers last year with a peak of 6.3M, compared with [italic]Bodyguard’s[/italic] opening audience of 6.7M last year.

That is terrific news! This show is morphing into a big hit in the US also. Great for Surranne she is really stealing this show. Her fleabagg takes with the camera are delicious, perfect and Delightful. I am crazy about her.

I loved how the two women discussed sexual assault (well, rape) in the latest episode, even though they obviously didn't have the same clear terminology we have today. But they still both understood that what that man did to Ann was completely wrong.

r188 Speaking of Fleabag, r173 should add Phoebe Waller-Bridge to their list.

R189 excellent point - they did struggle with the language of naming that experience as rape. “Adultery” will roll very easily off those Old world Christian tongues though.

"This show is morphing into a big hit in the US also."

Is it? I don't see it anywhere on this list

R191 Why are you Trolling this website? F/F you. The fame of this series is spreading as diverse audiences begin to Learn of it. It’s happening.

Why are you calling me a troll because I linked to a ratings site? Lighten up.

This is not merely linking to a website - you are being deliberately provocative about another’s opinion. Deliberately, un-necessarily aggressive. Point blank. Not having it. Why are you here?

Yes, posting a link to a website is soooooo provocative! Yeah, it's totally wrong to correct a poster claiming this is a huge hit in America, by offering actual evidence. How dare I! I like the show, but let's not pretend it's a giant hit in the US. Some posters here are insane. Try to be a little less touchy.

It is successful *for the type of production it is*--of course it was never going to attract Super Bowl audiences. Recall that Mad Men and Breaking Bad were never hugely successful either strictly in terms of ratings when they aired, but they were influential and this show could be similar. Surely you have no trouble understanding this.

Breaking Bad was a pretty big hit, actually.

Re Breaking Bad: I meant relatively speaking, compared to huge ratings hits like The Big Bang Theory and (at the time) Two and a Half Men. Six Feet Under was also influential without huge ratings, as was 30 Rock.

Damn though, Anne got roughed up this last episode, both physically and mentally!

r199 That blood splatter when she got punched, holy shit! But I think that thug spiting in her face might have hurt her the most. Crazy how quickly things can unravel once people start talking.

I'm a gay guy but I LOVED when Anne said "This is different than what two men do." She hasn't made the connection that we might not be that different from each other and has taken on the hetero definition of homosexuality because it happens to be more convenient for her. Plus her talking about feeling better about the whole thing if they took the sacrament - despite the scientific mind, she's still very much religious.

Most of the shots in Ann Walker's house are just stunning.

In general, I prefer period pieces to be lit naturalistically, but look at how glorious these yellows become when light hits them from all sides.

Ann's place looks much more inviting and almost ethereal that way. Shibden Hall looks like a dungeon in comparison.

I loved the way Anne Lister handled creepy rapist Ainsworth. Do you think he was the person who sent the man to beat up Anne at the end of the episode? Could it have been be the nosy Priestley neighbor? Or the bankers? Any guesses?

My money is on the Rawson brother. He sounded pretty upset and identified Anne being close to Ann and getting her money as his main problem earlier in the episode. I doubt Ainsworth as a priest would stoop to that level but we'll see.

The actor playing Ainsworth looks so good in period clothing I'm embarrassed to admit I started doubting Ann's account of their encounters. That's just the kind of power handsome people have in our society.

R203 - didn't Reverend Ainsworth say he was high on opium when he assaulted Ann Walker?

The "high on opium defense" was the twinkie defense of the 19th century

r204 You're right. So it's been established that his judgement might not be that great.

What a disturbing episode. Anne Lister saved her lover from a predator in a very cool way. “I have given my friend Ms. Anne Lister surveillance of all my recent correspondence...” then Lister backs it up with a law and order visit to Eliza and asserting her presence in front of the the very rapey reverend. The entire show has stayed faithful to Listers recorded accounts, though Walker had an unconsummated (by her choice) friendship with another man that she felt guilty about. Walker was a dyke - just beset by a nasty closed in crowd of holy rollers.

I loved Listers tender insistence on a more “formal connection” she knew the power & healing that comes with tying ceremony & faith so brilliant, she wanted marriage equality just as we do. Lister was made of Iron and how hard she fought for her marriage to Walker! This is where her place in history is immortalized. Though research about treating PTSD would come nearly 2 centuries later - she could grasp that the confusion in Walker was the result of abuse. Unlike everyone else she wondered about the precipitating event but could only address the current situation.... “Have some courage Ann.”

The heartbreaking mess of Walker had nothing on Lister &all she endured. Lister had endured decades of harassment & heartbreak with weak willed lovers. Each enthralled with her, carried away on mad hormones of newly discovered satisfying lovemaking, still all cowardly opting for a fake heteronormative existence. So who was actually more self involved? Walker with all her money & sycophants certainly.

One particularly cruel Lister biographer would have it “Ann wanted sex, Anne wanted her money.” However the original researcher, Helena Whitbread saw it quite differently, as did her gay daughter Rachel. Rachel understood Lister to be a “stone butch” in control and very clear in mind wanting to declare her right to existence and love.

I am with the later, only a besotted, compassionate, worldly, defiant, lover could deliver this speech to a messy Walker: “We have’nt committed a criminal offense... however if it were a criminal offense I would have to be hanged for it, if it were to become one then you see I would have to put my neck in the noose. Because I love, and only love the fairer sex. (As) If my heart revolts from any other love. These feelings haven’t wavered or deviated since childhood. I was borne like this as my God given nature dictates. If I was to lie with a man then surely that would be unnatural. Surely that would be against God who made us, everyone of us in all of our richness, variety and you are the same. You told me so...”

“Dont let them poison you against me - against us - we can be happy, you know we can. We can have a rich life together....why should I compromise myself to lie with another man’s wife? ... and that is why to me our present connection without any tie for me is wrong. I want you to be MY WIFE. I want you to be my wife and everything that that means.... But everything else “to love, to cherish, to have and to hold according to God’s holy ordinance...with God’s blessing he will give us strength and courage.”

I want this in crewel embroidery 4x2 dammit

Listers diaries from the Walker period (Fall 32- Winter 33) haven’t been fully published as of yet. Researchers use portions of references them for movies, series and one or two books. Again events presented in the joint BBC/HBO special are From Lister.

I love the jaunty, toe-tapping opening number? Anyone know who the composer is?

r208 Murray Gold (Doctor Who, Torchwood, Death at a Funeral, A Very English Scandal).

R209 - thank you!

Yes, I agree with R203. It's clearly the Rawson brothers who are behind the assault.

No, R204, he was high on opium when he wrote the first letter to Miss Walker, but not when he assaulted her.

I also liked those quotes, R207. It's quite amazing to see the early notions of a gay "identity" in Anne Lister. She had no one to teach her the words and ideas.

If the Rawson Brothers are behind the assault on Anne, why did they have the thug tell her to keep away from Miss Walker?

No, it's more likely to be that creepy minister guy or some relative who likes spending Ann's money.

Because they know that Anne Walker is the one providing her with money to sink her own coal pitt, R212.

r211 I gasped when Ann Walker shouted "queer". I thought the connection of that word to gay people was more recent in origin.

Of course, the very fact that only male-male sex was criminalised allowed Anne to form an identity that was more positive and self-accepting than what the society at large thought of it. I'm sure it came as a shock to her that when push came to shove and she inconvenienced the breeders too much, she found herself in the exact same shit as the homos.

Their noses are actually having an epic battle on a higher plane in this tense scene, you just can't see it.

In Anne Listers diary “queer” was slang for a woman's vagina and clitoris, as in “I touched her queer.” She was explicit for her day and a very very skilled lover.

R212 Miss Walker is also a cousin to the Rawsons. Mother Rawson got a huge laugh out of that when the family was sitting around having tea - that Lister's "little friend" loaning her the money was their cousin.

Everyone seems to be someone's cousin. I realised just last episode that Amelia Bullmore's husband is also Anne's cousin.

Oh, and has anyone mentioned Marian's trade suitor yet? What did you think of him? Is he as rough as you expected, or worse? I think aunt Lister and Marian's dad can't stand him. Never been to New Zealand even though he owns some land there - can you imagine the shock of that for someone so tied to their land as the Listers? He's like the bloody queen, with his overseas territories he's never seen before.

Trade suitor suggested tearing down Shibden was hysterical. The talent at that table was superb and hysterical. The actor that played the suitor was so breezy, stupid and clueless - great job! But the Aunt and Anne’s father were in a class by themselves - the greatest of British actors. The arch of an eyebrow, widening of eyes, slightest grimace was all a master class in acting. Marian just blanked out at it all, lol.

I loved the teasing dialogue Wainwright gave Anne when it came to her family. As Anne is headed out the door she says to her father “Ok Colonel, dont lose any more countries while I’m gone.” (Ref the US) I howled. But nearly all of her dialogues and sideyes to the camera Were delivered panache.

I think I am in love with Suranne Jones, lol. She will nab a BAFTA again this year for this program- and will be the one to beat in the US come Emmy Time.

Are there 8 episodes for season 1? Or only 7?

r221 Eight episodes, just checked. I was certain next week's was the season finale (had Fleabag in mind), so that was a nice surprise.

Ah, danke, R221. British TV shows can be very stingy with episodes, so 8 is cool.

I hope there is a second season....

They have a lot of changes to cover in this season’s story, though I am assuming it will conclude with Anne and Ann exchanging rings and taking sacraments in a wedding ceremony.

There's no way we're only getting one season of this, right? Although I imagine it would take more than a year to produce a second one.

Listers life was very very interesting, there will certainly be a 2nd season. They have 6 years of their relationship yet to cover. I mean it took Ann Walker 8 mos after Lister passed away to return to Shibden. It is pretty clear Walker was dreading life in England without her Anne. There are many yarns to spin yet about Lister - she was a profoundly brilliant and fascinating woman.

[quote]Shibden Hall looks like a dungeon in comparison.

Are you saying it's not inviting?

r228 That particular area is okay, I guess. I hate whenever the camera moves around the stairs and inside Anne's room, though, as that all looks dark and cold and unappealing. I wish it were lit differently.

Maybe Crows Nest is newer, certainly it cost more money with those big windows. Shibden had small windows much older. Lighting was lousy and they did film most of the series inside the estate. Suranne explained that they could not film upstairs in Anne’s actual bedroom, nor in her study because the higher floors could not bear the weight of the the camera’s. So not only is the script authentically sourced from her journal entries, but lighting and atmosphere of home is identical. This series is amazing.

Anne’s room was shot in the studio - not the house. But they knew how her living area looked so the film also remains authentic there also. Suranne explains all this in several interviews.

They did a nice studio job with Anne's room

Yeah, that IS nice for a studio.

I don't think they'll make a second season. Certainly all the romantic drama will be over once they wed?

Once they wed, then the travels and adventures begin. Also there is the family deaths, construction of Shibden and the coal mine issues. I hope there will be a second season. Listers death was so dramatic they almost certainly have to cover that - she is an icon Of the LGBT history. The Lesbian that preceded all others except a couple queens and Greek scholars.

Undo those curls and let that hair down Suranne!! God so gorgeous.... Lesbians of the western world really owe her thanks for Pursuing this role.

Well, I guess they proved me wrong, and very quickly too!!

^^ OMG, sweet !!

I hope Suranne gets to use her cane on some pert young buttocks.

I'm rereading a book called "Gay Lives" by Robert Aldrich. There is a short biography of Anne Lister in it.

The love of her life was a woman named Marianna Belcombe. Marianna married but it didn't stop her and Anne from continuing their relationship. Lister then renewed an affair with Isabella Norcliffe and later also slept with Isabella's sister Anne. While in Paris, she began an affair with an Englishwoman named Maria Barlow. For several years, Anne Lister commuted between her two partners (Barlow in France and Marianna in England).

Ann Walker (spelled with an "e" in the book) was described as a widowed heiress. I don't remember anything being mentioned in the show about Ann having been married before. Ann soon moved in with Lister but their relationship was troubled by Walker's depression. The two Annes traveled together and it was Walker who returned Lister's embalmed body to England after she died of fever in Georgia's Caucasus Mountains. Walker ended her days in a mental asylum. Not a happy ending.

r240 I wonder if these facts shouldn't be treated as spoilers of sorts, as not many people know her story? I was kinda annoyed with Emily Nussbaum for writing Anne got married to a woman in a church in the article at r46 as that took much of the dramatic tension out of this season for me, and I now I know how she died as well...

I realise we need to talk about Anne and more people should know about her life but at the same time, I'm sure many are treating this series like a classic TV show and don't want to know what happens in advance. It's a catch-22 type of thing, is what I'm saying.

I hope they do flashbacks to Paris and her various affairs as well. And mountain climbing!

This series takes place around 1840. I'm pretty sure most of us had already figured out that she dies.

Don't be a low-effort smartass. I was of course referring to the way and the place she died.

I wonder if the real Ann Walker was actually mentally unstable, or if her relatives had her put in an asylum in order to get their hands on her money.

The show has her as being somewhat unstable, so much so that I wonder what the fuck Anne Lister sees in her!

Two things I've wondered, are horses so prohibitively expensive that the Listers only had the one Anne put down, which is why the whole household walks (in Anne's case, briskly) wherever they go?

And the second was the heated conversation when Anne tells Ann she would not be satisfied lying with a woman married to a man and is rather indignant at the idea and how she would never--only she did, and does with Marianna Belcombe.

Even today Horses are expensive r246. A good horse will cost at least a few thousand dollars not to mention the upkeep and care.

This horse requires a lot of upkeep

I knew horses were/are expensive but just assumed old landed gentry like the Listers would have the ability to tighten the belt and replace a horse. I mean Anne was plunking down 30 pounds for a ring for Ann and though not swimming in wealth the Listers did not seem impoverished. But then I reasoned maybe that isn't a priority with this family? Anne is probably the only one who even rides and a horse is merely there to pull a buggy.

BTW, what was the problem with the horse exactly?

No, a typical squirearchy family of that era would have a carriage and a team of horses, and possibly a smaller vehicle like a pony trap or some riding horses. Any family of that era that lived in a manor house and couldn't afford a couple of horses would have to be suffering some serious financial issues.

If Anne is making the financial decisions for the family and isn't budgeting for a couple of horses so the older folks can get out and her sister can arrive places looking like a Lady, then she's really, really cramping their style. Keeping them from having a social life, confining them to the immediate neighborhood, not allowing them to keep up appearances. I don't know if that's financially necessary.

It seems that Anne can afford to travel as much as she likes, so she can't be THAT short of money. I mean horses were expensive in the early 19th century, the common phrase that meant "made it financially" was "set up his carriage", because that's what you did when you hit the big time - bought a coach and four.

The family really ought to have at least one horse.

I think the horse was their work horse, a loss for the farm.

Maybe they do have other horses. We know they have a carriage. I think Anne just likes walking.

"Anne Lister? She's a walker, that one!" - locals being interviewed by time-travelling historians

The horse had a bacterial infection. I believe Glanders was mentioned.

R241 I understand your frustration - really I do.

But I cant get over how lucky we are that Suranne Jones is portraying this icon and doing such a magnificent job. Suranne is a tremendous actress.

R245 Walker had lost her parents, her brother at a young age. But the REAL ISSUE was PTSD from being endlessly molested and raped by the husband of someone she loved. Big issues there - trust, lack of ability to create intimate relationships, chronic depression from the secret shame, on and on and on. AND he was a “friend” that kept it up for decades. So what about all that horrific business?

Clearly she was depressed. Beyond that I think it was the money grubbing Family that had convinced her she was an “invalid” and needed rest. Keeping her “infirm, homebound” and dependent because of lousy health is one way to keep people in yr pockets. Anne Lister was the best thing to ever happen to her.

I read on another site, (okay, it was L Chat), that in real life Ann Walker was only harassed by the preacher, not raped and molested. In the series she says she was raped once, although I thought it was hard to decipher whether it was "rape rape" or just him pestering her until she gave in.

I mean, I definitely didn't read it as violent rape or anything like that. But if you pester your acquaintance into having sex with you, that's pretty much sexual assault and only slightly removed from rape. Especially with the gender power imbalance of that time period.

R258, women did not give in because of pestering in the days before birth control, not if having a child out of wedlock meant social and financial ruin, and the loss of everything held dear. No, they had to be forced back then, either physical force or blackmail.

In the show I think the guy's motive for raping her was to get her pregnant, so she'd have to marry him or face "ruin".

[quote]In the show I think the guy's motive for raping her was to get her pregnant, so she'd have to marry him or face "ruin".

But didn't he assault her when her friend / his wife was alive and in another room? So I think he was just horny. And I also suspect he might have killed his wife intentionally by pushing her out of the carriage, though of course we'll never know for sure.

I love Suranne's voice.

Suranne is good at playing butch.

Even allowing for historical context, she wasn't a very likeable person, was she.

One gets the feeling Gentleman Bitch, or Anne The Cunt would have been a more honest title for the biography and series.

I wonder how the show would have differed if Nan Michiganwomyn and the gals of the sadly missed MitchFest were cast in it.

No need for the negative trolling Lesbian bashing remarks. Lister was many things to many people, smart, highly educated, loyal to her tenants, aloof as means to survive remarks like the above. She was also largely kind to her staff - always came through in their times of need, loyal to her lovers and immediate family. Now she is a global icon for the LGBTQ community. She was brave she lived openly as a lesbian when there Were no words for that love at all.

She was and remains a much braver historical figure than the cowardly anonymous Lesbian bashers in this thread.

[quote]No need for the negative trolling Lesbian bashing remarks.

This is an open forum so you can cut the dumb-fuck Woke attempt to shut down views that you personally don't approve of.

Context is everything. Lister was a massively entitled individual: a member of the 1% of her time. Being massively wealthy, and aligning herself with equally wealthy women, she had POWER in spades. She wasn't brave: she didn't take genuine personal risks. She hid her truth in coded writing. What she was -- which is very different -- was bold. But the wealthy can afford to be. Possessing Fuck You money allows them to write their own rules. Just like 'England's wealthest son' William Beckford, who could disport himself day and night with boys that would have brought lesser men to the gallows. Pity if this truth offends your SJW street feminist agenda.

“SJW street feminist agenda” I think we know we are dealing with here in a LGBT website. “A massively entitled individual, massively wealthy” Indeed she was an outwardly queer woman that was beat up by people - prob much like yourself - for just being alive and breathing air.

You are here to troll on a gay website and bash lesbians. One Sick Fuck you are.

She wasn’t massively wealthy, that’s why she wanted to marry someone else with money. She couldn’t even sink her own coal pit without Ann Walker’s fortune. However, she did belong to the Gentry, and class was everything.

[quote]and bash lesbians

I'm not here to bash lesbians, you crazed bint. I couldn't care if she was a pedophiliac midget. What is objectionable is the way the narrative is being massaged to align with modern tropes, with a better shadowing of context. She wasn't a particularly likeable individual and she wasn't 'brave'. Any more than Vita Sackville-West was. You want a brave lesbian? Radcliffe Hall was a brave lesbian! And compared to the working class of Yorkshire, who lucky to see a few shillings in a week, she was fucking wealthy. She could impose her will, like the rest of her class, and she did. And in a time before the Married Women's Property Act, she had a freedom denied to the majority of women. The poster immediately above is right: first to last, this is a story about class privilege.

typo: "WITHOUT a better shadowing of context"

Lister’s journals reveal Ann Walker was simultaneously dealing with coming out as well as PTSD from sexual abuse would have been Utterly overwhelming with neither the language or the professional assistance of counselors. I would like to see professional commentary done By members of the LGBTQ community at some point. Lister is quoted in her journals as wanting to be free from the madness of Ann’s sufferings still she remained in touch and hopeful for a reunion.

Without professional remedy for Walker I think LIster made a good decision to travel with her away from the dreadful family. Why not be the 1st woman to take a vacay to the Spanish Pyrenees and be the 1st woman/or man to climb certain mountains? Lister may have tired of Walkers periodic instability but remained to the end a loyal and committed wife. Even after her untimely death Ann Walker continued to live at Shibden for another 6-8years after Listers death. In the end though she fell apart want carted off by her family tribe to a hospital. Ann Lister really was her saving grace and devoted wife.

As a gay guy, I'll never understand the lesbian bashing on Datalounge, of all places. With friends like these...

I loved the elder Listers napping in this episode, with Argus curled up beside them. The straight romance between the help kinda bores me, to be honest. Ann is totally going to be diagnosed with hysteria by that lady doctor, isn't she?

I heard some comments on a podcast I listen to that some lesbians haven't warmed up to this show because Lister was such an industrialist. Someone even called her "Trumpian", which made my ears bristle. Yes, she wanted to exploit her land so she could afford to travel and learn new things and update Shibden Hall and its surroundings. And of course seeing those women and children working in her mines didn't faze her as worker safety and worker rights in general weren't yet that big during that time period. Barring that, nothing else we've seen so far on the screen would suggest she was a Trumpian character.

They also said she was against women's suffrage, but she specifically says in the first episode she's against the bill which would codify male suffrage. Yes, that bill would have given the right to all working men in addition to landowners, but that's not Anne Lister's problem. She asks why her tenants should get the right to vote but not her as their land owner just because she's a woman. That seems perfectly reasonable to me?

R273 Thank you. Bashing Lister for being an “industrialist” is so wrong. I agree they miss the entire point which is she “wanted” to be an industrialist when in fact she largely had just a few pieces of property she rented to tenants. Honestly not very diff from every Lez in America that flips houses - there are many. Virtually no one knew of the damage from coal - how on earth can anyone hold her accountable for that?

Being self taught, self supporting, sustaining family members and being a responsible and accountable employer was something wasnt on the radar of majority of women at that time shy of majority of women living in lower socio economic class. Give us all a break ladies.

"Pity if this truth offends your SJW street feminist agenda."

The Republicans who whine about "SJWs" are the ones who can't face the truth. Are you still unable to accept that Trump is a crook? Do you still think he's a great businessman?

"I heard some comments on a podcast I listen to that some lesbians haven't warmed up to this show "

I'm surprised but also skeptical. It's anecdotal but I'm a lesbian and every lesbian I know is watching and loves many things about the series. Haven't heard one comparison with Trxmp from lesbians by the way. Not sure who the podcasters were.

Last night's episode was excellent. Walker's annoying. I look forward to Lister's hinted-at likely dalliance with her former fling.

r276 The podcaster was Karen Tongson of the lesbian royalty, and she mentioned it on the last-ever PopRocket last week.

Though to be honest, the one who chimed in with the Trump comment is straight, which only made me angrier.

Karen Tongson. I admit I only vaguely know who she is. Thanks.

I had to leave the room when Anne's business dealings were happening. What happened with her mine/her land? If someone can update me on her business, I would appreciate it.

To sink her own pit Lister needed money, which she asked Walker for. When Walker has second thoughts about marrying and moving in and coming out to all, Lister decided she couldn't ask Walker for money. Meanwhile the evil and closeted of the two brothers found out that Lister's been hanging around his cousin, Ann Walker, and decided to send someone to rough up Lister because any alliance she forges with Walker will strengthen her position and fuck him over.

I think that's what happened.

R280 - thanks.

r279 It became so convoluted in the latest episode that I was scratching my head while watching it. And there's an additional complication with the service road on Anne's land now as well, because the other guy who's offering to buy her pit can't reach his pit any other way because he's also been swindled by the Rawsons, so he's now stealing the rocks from Anne. But the Rawsons lowered their offer so she's not getting the money back for the coal they had already stolen. And she can't be there all the time to prevent the theft from continuing, and a court order wouldn't do much good. I think that's what was said during the conversation with her lawyer, at least.

Perhaps someone could break it down for us better. It's certainly the most complex business deal on TV right now.

Anne Lister had a large plot of land some miles from Halifax proper. She had a chronic issue with nearby landowners, city dwellers cutting paths through her property. They were as likely to cut a path directly along Shibden property to steal her chickens as they were to use her property to get to their own coal pits directly next to her own land.

Anne and her family had build a small number of roads with stones to make travel easier and less dangerous by carriage. They were very expensive improvements to make, cutting quarry stone, carting to placement, labor intensive, etc.

One of the 2 men interested in her coal access had found his own pit tapping out and he needed to purchase a vein of hers that abutted his. She was not interested in selling to him, just used his offer to compete for a fair price from Rawsons after they had stolen so much of hers. The Rawsons threatened him too, basically they would win, own her site he should quit.

I dont know if they paid him to do this, but he was plugging up his mine on the cheap with her handy, expensive quarry stone. That is all i have. Hope this helps.

R283 - thanks for the info.

I wonder who this cutie in the preview for the next week's episode is and why Anne was confiding in him about Mariana so openly.

r283 That does clarify things. I shudder to think how Captain Lister or Marian would be dealing with these issues without Anne around. At least she's got that lawyer to advise her so isn't completely alone.

He is the Physician brother of her former flame Marianna. He knew of their intimate relationship well before his sister left Anne Lister to marry A much older man. No doubt he personally preferred Lister - they are open and extremely friendly. Horrible that Marriana infected Anne with an STD from that old whore dog husband of hers. In her journals this became a situation that quite upset Anne and made Marianna a scary risk as a sexual partner. Still Anne loved her. (This was a common event to women married to philandering men - the author “Isak Dennison” actually Karen Blxen had to leave Africa and return to Europe to undergo the same poisonous treatments Anne Lister did - usually compound creams of mercury or arsenic. Can you imagine?)

Dear people who don't have cable or Netflix, you can download from the internet.

[quote]He is the Physician brother of her former flame Marianna. He knew of their intimate relationship well before his sister left Anne Lister to marry A much older man.

Ooh, how terribly exciting! I'm also wondering when/if we'll meet that guy Anne was writing her former flame in Hastings about in this episode. You know, the man she wants to take to Paris and then continue on her travels alone. Is she really prepared to marry him?

[quote]usually compound creams of mercury or arsenic. Can you imagine?

Full-body cringe! Sheer poisonousness aside, did those things actually work?

[quote] Lister is quoted in her journals as wanting to be free from the madness of Ann’s sufferings still she remained in touch and hopeful for a reunion.

Ann was hearing voices in the recent episode, I wonder if she suffered from schizophrenia. Agree that Lister was her saving grace, if not for her, Ann Walker would have been put in an asylum.

Does schizophrenia manifest only at night, though? I think it might be something milder than that but something more serious than depression, or "religious despondency", as Anne (mis)diagnosed her.

A nervous breakdown, would be my bet.

Miss Walker is really becoming quite insufferable for me. I am really over her, and I hope she dies this season--let Miss Lister move on to better women! I mean shes cute and all, but we all know the hot ones are the crazies!

Unfortunately for you R291, they sort of marry and are together until death.

I think it's wrong to say that Ann is afraid of coming out, since that has never been on the table. Anne is always very clear that they should always keep up the pretense of just being close friends. Still, moving in together will no doubt spur on gossip, which they both know.

Agreed, coming out seems like a modern notion to me. I doubt anything even approaching that ever crossed either of their minds.

Yes those cremes did work.

Anne Lister was traveling with a man only because he could act as a bodyguard. I have no idea what you think this is about.

I mean, why would a single man agree to go with her to Paris if (a sham) marriage wasn't in the cards eventually? He has the time to play a bodyguard to some random landowner from Halifax, really?

R289 She seemed to suffer from lifelong depression. Why couldnt it be a milder episodic Bi Polar? The screeching of prayers until she wore herself out. Could be bouts of mania. But yes, could be breakdown endured by dealing with coming out.

Truth is she NEVER had any positive solid emotional support after her mother died. She had nowhere to turn when life got messy if she was importing girls her own age to keep her company. Also when Mrs. Priestly, Annes longtime friend, turned on her that must have been the beginning of hell.

R296 Men were employed as a manual labor - carrying trunks, suitcases, driving rented carriages for the gentry. Same as when Anne Lister had that young man employed in her house running back and forth with messages to Crowsnest and answering the door at Shibden.

My partner cackled at the idea of sending a person back and forth delivering messages. "That's how they texted then."

I thought it was that after Lister got roughed up she reconsidered traveling alone and mentioned hiring a man to accompany her.

r298 I see. I think the word "groom" and the flowery language threw me off when she wrote: "I should like a good, strong, English groom who would do anything in the world for me."

Ah, R300. Groom: a person employed to take care of horses.

Of course I see now that Mary expounded on that groom in the very next sentence but I - being a basic homo - was so struck by her (reading, drawing?) room and the red rubies (garnets?) around her neck that I completely glossed over the dialogue.

I find it very interesting that in the first episode where Mariana Lawton visits Shibden, after she and “Freddie” make love, Anne wipes her fngers off on the bedcover. Was that because of the VD discharge? Or justify a wild and wet woman?

r303 I noticed that as well. I guess it's either that or licking her fingers, which would be a bit too much for the BBC.

Cleaned to prevent transmission. In her diaries she. Notes that she was particularly concerned with hygiene after a tumble with Maryanne Who really didnt deserve the pleasure of it all.

Put another way, if I had to rub mercury/poison into my vadge - Miss thing would be lucky to get a French kiss let alone anything else.

How did Ann W give Lister an STD? OK oral sex perhaps, but how did the disease manifest? Sores on the mouth? Did the ladies scissor in those days? Can you tell I'm male and I haven't a clue about the ladies? But I do so appreciate the historic lessons from this series.

Lister was extremely unusual in that she was nearly expert on anatomy with a major in sexual gratification. Likely genital to genital contact.

Also bodily fluids shared from touching, to orifice.

She probably contracted herpes via oral sex. The writings don't specifically state this, but do mention she had some sort of STD for the rest of her life.

You'd think, with her education in anatomy and medicine, she would have been smarter about protecting herself from STDs, especially considering that she was sleeping with women who were still sleeping with their promiscuous husbands.

You’d think, but where was the public information campaign advising men to Suit Up? Oh wait it was 1813. Trust, she was hardly alone with a society that shamed sexual encounters to begin with. Blame the victim always. Right?

R312, SJW much?

Condoms were used at least dating all the way back to the 1500s. By the 1800s, they were marketed to the poor. Syphilis was written about in the 1600s and called 'the French disease'. These things were common knowledge to wealthy, educated people such as Lister.

r313 Those were male condoms, not dental dams for eating a woman out. And who uses a condom just for fingering, anyway?

The condoms they used were for birth control, some were made of lambskin and not much help against STDs.

It was only the last 20yrs that Medicine begin to actually talk about Lesbians transmitting STD’s. A prominent, Ivey League Univ Hospital Physician told me in 1980 that lesbians would find it very difficult to transmit STD in a sexual encounter.

If that was the erroneous medical viewpoint in 1980 - the very idea of same in 1825 was nonexistent. Esp since there was literally zero recognition of lesbian relations - thus they were never criminalized - and no STD’s as well.

R313, Milo clone much?

djhqwior

Lister did not get VD (most likely gonorrhea) from Ann Walker, she got it from Mariana Lawson. Lawson got it from her unfaithful husband.

"Condoms were used at least dating all the way back to the 1500s."

Well yeah, but it's not like Lister could tell her married lover's husband to wrap it up. Especially when it was too late.

And yes, condoms were in use back in the 1700s, to protect men from STDs when with prostitutes (the men who used them didn't care about pregnancies). One man of the time described them as "A battlement against enjoyment, a fishnet against disease".

Yes it was Mariana that infected Anne. She was the only one that Lister remained sexually active with after marrying a man.

More re Anne and Mariana. They had a plan.

R314, my point is that, being a well educated woman, she would have known the risk intrinsic to having sex with women who have sex with promiscuous men. She would have known that her partner's lack of using protection with her husband would have put her at risk for an STD that could ultimately be transmitted to her (Lister).

Love this show

[quote]she would have known the risk intrinsic to having sex with women who have sex with promiscuous men

But how could she possibly have known Mariana's husband was promiscuous? Married men usually hide their affairs.

[bold]From The Archers to HBO: how Sally Wainwright conquered TV[/bold]

[quote]She was fired by Emmerdale, injected some much-needed grit into Coronation Street and struck gold with Last Tango in Halifax and Happy Valley. Now Sally Wainwright is going international.

wow, she looks very dykey.

Sally Wainwright is very 'close' to Suranne Jones.

Some lesbians told me this was good and I was going to watch it. But then the promo still on HBOGo. I don't think I could sit through watching that woman's eyebrows for fifteen minutes, let alone through a whole series. Are you able to ignore her eyebrows after a while. Does she ever wear her hat down low enough to hide them?

Give it a rest. They both have husbands and kids.

Oh, ffs, and what's wrong with her eyebrows, exactly?

r327 She just looks like a straight frau stuck in the '90s to me. Not that unusual.

R330 - that doesn't prove anything

r331, they look like the fake mustaches they sell in the toy aisle of CVS. But bigger.

Where's she hiding the keys to her 16 wheeler?

r60 already made that joke and I'm still none the wiser as to what a "16-wheeler" actually is, or what it has to do with Anne. And no, I'm not going to google it as it'll start popping up in my YouTube recommendations tomorrow.

Sally W was interviewed with Jones on Amanpour's show and she seemed surprisingly inarticulate.

Yeah, she speaks plainly like an average person. Since when is Amanpour covering entertainment?

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R323, educated women (and men) today do not know it. Why would an early 19th century woman be more informed about STDs than educated people today?

R323, Lister wouldn't have known about the risks of getting an STD, because the science of her day didn't know. Yes, people knew you could catch diseases from having sex, but Pasteur didn't prove the "Germ Theory of Disease" until 1859, and Lister died in 1836. So in Lister's day it wasn't exactly how STDs got transmitted, and nobody knew whether lesbian sex with married women was safe or not, because science didn't study sex between humans in that day, and the scientific establishment of her day did not admit the existence of lesbians.

And it's not like Lister was in a position to be picky. VERY few women of her class were sexually active with other women, so the pool of potential girlfriends was miniscule. And most of the women in that pool wanted to marry for social or financial reasons, so if Lister wanted to hold out for unmarried women she was going to spend a hell of a lot of nights alone. Hm. Maybe that's why she married the unstable and irritating Walker, because she finally found a woman who didn't have a husband in the way.

Is that video supposed to be something other than the trailer, R338?

r341 Yes, it's a whole (and very interesting) article, but DL doesn't resolve DailyMail links properly so you'll have to disable link previews in your DL settings temporarily.

Or google "How the real-life Gentleman Jack was far racier" and click on the first result.

Miss Walker better shape up tonight as her nervous disposition is untenable

IN her memoirs does Miss Lister reference sex toys?

LESBIANS?! In MY VAGINA?!!

R340 is right. Science was in its infancy regarding germs and microbes, let alone STDs. It's very hard to make assumptions on what Lister may or may not have known.

Tonight's episode was good and I find myself rooting for Anne and Ann, even if she is a bit fragile.

R55 and others, I totally agree that Suranne Jones acting so aggressively trying to portray a lesbian is rubbish. It gives the impression to people that all lesbians are butch and manly. I think she’s hugely miscast and can’t kiss a woman like a lesbian would. Rachel Weisz would have been great in the role but probably not paid enough. Jones is so straight and is petrified to kiss a woman.

R117 I also find Suranne Jones off putting

R346 What nonsense. The original Anne Lister wasn't known as Gentleman Jack for her daintiness.

When Miss Lister receives all these letters at her hotel in London is this the 19th century version of Grindr? Eldergays, prey do tell!

I can't believe this groom who is SEX on legs is Dino fucking Fetscher. Marian couldn't stop glancing at his bulge! Loved seeing the French maid going crazy over him.

[quote]It gives the impression to people that all lesbians are butch and manly.

Um, what? Mary, Mariana, and Ann Walker aren't butch and manly, and yet it bothers you that one out of four is? Also, she was butch af and the purpose of this show - as per the showrunner - is to try and portray her as faithfully as possible. The fuck is with this anti-butch sentiment, anyway? It's like the lesbian version of femme shaming in the gay community. Gross.

Rhodry the Scottish Deerhound watching himself on TV.

That stuff they were drinking in this episode, Madeira (wine), was that considered expensive at the time, for a place like Shibden?

Madeira was popular at the time, a fortified wine like port, and was thought to be good for you, as well as tasty. It's made on the island of Madeira, which at the time was the top spot for ships to stop in the Atlantic. I don't have any Madeira, but I keep a bottle of tawny port so I can pour myself a tiny delicate glass and play along while I watch these old costume dramas.

You're a dumbass R346 / R347. Also, I gave this show a chance despite my reservations and I love it.

"It gives the impression to people that all lesbians are butch and manly."

If anything, she's probably more feminine than the real Anne Lister was

r349 It was crazy to see her be this social butterfly in London. Like watching a gay man in a lesbian body. Butch lesbians aren't usually like that, are they? Loved that she didn't sneer at that infant.

I was also living for Anne and Mariana arguing like an old married couple at the table. Though snide, under-the-belt remarks like those are usually reserved after you've been with someone for decades.

Thanks to this thread, I couldn't stop thinking about Mariana giving Anne an STD during their intimate scene, so thanks for that.

Anne Lister has more confidence than I'll ever have, but I don't get why she kept giving Mariana so many chances. Nor Vere Hobart for that matter. Where is the self-respect? If someone jerks me around I make a point never to see them again, if possible.

r357 Limited options, age...?

But she was only 23 or there about when Mariana married her husband, and she slept with many other women afterward, from what I understand. Mariana may be her intellectual equal and confidante, but she seems really cruel.

Perhaps Anne Lister's self-worth just wasn't as great as her self-confidence.

R357 Yes she should have got straight down to her local lesbian bar and picked up some hot pussy.

Happy Pride!

dishy 'do

Brits, doesn't Mariana have a bit of a trashy accent?

I've been waiting for DL fave (minor-league division) Dino Fetscher to show up. He did not disappoint -- either me or Marian. I hope he's around for the second season and has more to do. (As does he, I'm sure, since Humans was cancelled. He makes a better groom than a robot if only because he gets to smile.)

I know Gentleman Jack isn't a comedy, but it makes me laugh more than any other show I'm watching these days. Marian alone is a comedy coal, er, gold mine.

They knew about STDs like herpes in the Roman times. Emperor Tiberius banned kissing at public events in an effort to curb the herpes epidemic. Hippocrates wrote about STDs. If they knew about herpes 2000 years ago, they most certainly would have known about it 200 years ago in France and England.

R335 “People reacting to this one scene from ‘Gentleman Jack’ when Mariana Lawton visited Anne Lister.” Check this out on YouTube to see how ignorant straight people are about lesbians.

Yes indeed I think this week's episode should have been titled "Marion and the Groom's Bulge".

You're hired!

*Marian* that is.....

" If they knew about herpes 2000 years ago, they most certainly would have known about it 200 years ago in France and England. "

Again, how much would anyone in 1830s England have known about the transmission of STDs during lesbian sex?

Zip, nada, diddly, that's what! The scientific establishment didn't study sex, didn't admit that lesbians admitted, didn't understand the mechanism of transmission of disease, and they specifically excluded women from learning any science that touched on sex or sexuality. So someone like Anne Lister could have made some educated guesses, but she'd also have to deal with the fact that most human beings won't give fair warning of STDs before they get it on with someone new. They won't now, so I'm assuming they didn't then.

R370, if they knew herpes sores spread herpes from mouth to mouth, it wouldn't be a far stretch to know you can get it on your twat.

She had gonorrhea, you twat.

Just one more episode for this season. The thought of waiting for Season Two is killing me but that is better than a single season.

I'm watching the series on BBC, so I'm three episodes in. Episode four airs tomorrow.

Last night’s episode was more like real lesbian drama and not so much about the coal mining. I’m even warming to Suranne Jones but irl there would be more kissing and cuddling to reassure Walker. Suranne needs to get in there with some kissing on the lips to come across as a lesbian.

Danish court tonight!

Is this really Ann's tombstone? Why does it look like that? Has it collapsed through the ages or was it something else?

They had trichomoniasis.

Season Finale was quite enjoyable.

I am on episode four. Ann W. was presented as virginal/sexually inexperienced in previous episodes ("have you ever kissed anyone?"), but Anne L. must have figured out that Ann W. was not a virgin (she wouldn't be if raped by the reverend). Wouldn't that come up in a conversation between the two?

How would she necessarily know if she was a virgin? It's not like you can tell from looking or feeling.

Yes, you can tell by feeling if she still has an intact hymen.

r378 Isn't trich one of the least concerning STDs? Right up there with the crabs?

Amelia Bullmore slaying in a design I'd genuinely never seen before. The costumes on this show are so great, it's a shame Marian and Anne seem to be dressed largely the same most of the time. Up their budget next season, BBC/HBO!

Not all virgins have noticeable hymens, R383. Historically, girls from virgin-obsessed cultures have suffered shaming and persecution due to this natural variation.

Nice finale.....looking forward to the next season.....More Joseph & Thomas, please.

So that queen of Denmark was Marie of Hesse-Kassel? I loved that scene, though Anne striding into the throne room seemed one of the least believable things in the entire show.

Copenhagen looked so nice. And some of the men at that dinner party were handsome af.

[bold]'Gentleman Jack' Delivers a Groundbreaking Season Finale[/bold]

[quote]Gentleman Jack is not just a superlative example of queer inclusivity on television, but perhaps the most epically romantic TV series of 2019 thus far, period.

It really was a lovely finale. Especially the last shot with the York Minster.

I am almost ready to forgive Sally Wainwright for "Last Tango in Halifax" when she killed off Caroline's lover.

I flipping loved the scene where, on the way back from Inverness, Ann shuts down Mrs Priestley's game of Eye Spy.

Hope there's less murder by pigs and trouble down pit next series.

I think is is Emmy-worthy, is there any buzz yet?

Suranne deserves the Emmy.

There was a great scene where they were spooning and Anne is flicking the bean

Better reaction here

^^ Love that! I'll take confusion over disgust any day.

HBO's 'Gentleman Jack' is terrific, but I feel the desire to pen a fanfic spin-off, 'Thomas Beech, the Handsome Groomsman'

R394 Judging from this clip of straight people watching an episode of GJ on Gogglebox straight people still don’t know anything about lesbian sex. They really think only a dick can satisfy a woman! I feel sorry for our straight sisters. Lesbians have a far better sex life, I think.

Thomas and Joseph R398.

The old ladies watching, "We've never lived, have we?"

The Facebook page discussing GJ is more fun than this thread.

Then go back to Fraubook.

r400 In what way?

R402 lots of discussion and speculation and women who have actually read the diaries of Anne Lister. No idiotic comments like R401

Well, more people are on Facebook so it's only natural it would generate more discussion, thoughtful and otherwise.

Plus threads about lesbian shows don't tend to go far here on DL just in general, I've noticed over the years.

The ballroom scene in Copenhagen was fantastic. I haven't seen locations like that since the James Norton-Lily James "War and Peace." Does anyone know where it was filmed?

Just loved the finale and must have clapped like a little child three or four times. Agreed with the above who want more of Thomas the Handsome Groom in S2.

[quote]Does anyone know where it was filmed?

r405 Copenhagen City Hall and the royal chambers at Gavnø Castle.

Why does Ann's French maid despise the cute groomsman so much?

r407 Because he rebuffed her advances after one of the other maids warned him that the French maid is easy and got pregnant with a stranger. I think.

Eugenie got pregnant by Ann's previous groom, so the staff warned new groom Thomas ahead of time. Now he hilariously brushes past her like she's invisible.

I was hoping that Thomas is gay, like the actor portraying him!

Dino is decidedly playing gay (and opposite DL "fave" Russell Tovey) in "Years and Years," also on HBO. (The first episode just premiered in the US.)

Nice view if you can get it.

I hope Thomas Beech has more to do in the second season. After his introductory scene, he spends most of the rest of his scant screen time up on the back of that coach, jumping down off it, carrying a chest and avoiding even looking at Eugenie.

Sadly, Dino once again gets reduced to a minor role. He's quite a fine actor, and gorgeous to gaze upon.