Ugliest European city you've visited

geneva. zürich isn't far behind. actually, all swiss towns i've been to with the exception of lucerne. can't stand the country

but i haven't been to the scandi countries and have only visited some of the balkans (slovenia and croatia are GORGEOUS). lisbon isn't ugly per se but it's very shabby-looking, like nobody has bothered to repair all the crumbling, decaying buildings and roads for at least half a a century - not a good impression (though other places in portugal were lovely).

Oslo. Ugly AND overpriced. At least places like Pristina are dirt cheap.

R1 Have you been to Bern? Bern is very pretty. And Lisbon's town centre is currently undergoing some major renovations - there are cranes sticking out everywhere you look.

r3

yes, though briefly. bern certainly wasn't as much of an eyesore as zürich but i'd never call it pretty, personally. but de gustibus and all that.

I'm from Bavaria, bitches!

uh... r1 = r4 i.e. me

My Top Three:

Genoa, Italy.

Marseille, France.

Birmingham, UK.

What don't you like about Swiss towns R1/R4?

genoa is very charming

Budapest

Naples

Brindisi

Frankfurt

The Swiss hater seems to be based on dislike of the culture because in no way are Geneva and Zurich ugly European cities. They may not be baroque masterpieces but they are extremely well crafted, well maintained, never destroyed, historic cities with great wealth and all that brings.

Marseille, Grenoble, Antwerp. Frankfurt isn’t pretty either.

Lisbon is pretty in the center but its surrounded by fairly typical and quite large and ugly working class tower blocks.

Rotterdam is an example of how many cities that were destroyed in WW2 suffered from horrible post-war reconstructon--cheap, shoddy, ugly "Modernism."

I can't imagine living in a city with priceless architecture, paintings and sculpture. A city that's kept clean and treated with respect and dignity. It must be so amazing to wake up every morning in such a place.

See no . I loved Oslo . I love thought it was gorgeous. Museum Island lovely. I think I didn’t expect much from Oslo and I was pleasantly surprised. You are right though, very expensive.

Zurich was very expensive as well, but I stayed an hour outside of it and one of the most gorgeous places on earth. I can’t rave about it enough and quite reasonable.

Now Naples I will say , though the people who are insane ,are lovely and it has one of the world’s great museums is ,truly the only place in Europe I thought “ oh wow I understand why people left “ insane place Insane !!! But I am going there again next year because Pompeii , which I love is close and people are lovely.

Lisbon was wonderful.

Kosovo? I mean give the place a break. Wasn’t that where the massacre of 5000 men and boys occurred in the 1990s ?

R13 Grenoble is lovely, charming. The Issere, the surrounding Alps, the quaint town centre.

I'm not R1 but I agree that most Swiss cities are a bit disappointing - and not just lookswise but their atmosphere and cultural scene are lacklustre as well. There are some lovely smaller towns and mountainous villages with those cute wooden houses there but no one comes to Switzerland to admire its cities - the nature is its #1 attraction.

And I wouldn't call Genoa charming but I agree that it's a very fascinating place where you could easily spend weeks. I love all those scruffy Mediterranean ports like Genoa, Naples, Palermo and Marseilles that used to rule the world but are now mostly forgotten and decaying. They remind me of Miss Havisham a bit - they're desperately clinging to their days of former glory.

Athens. Outside of the Acropolis, there was no appeal for me at all.

r8 and r12

ugly architecture is what i dislike about the swiss cities i've been to. i'm not fond of the culture (if you can call it that... as far as i'm concerned, they hardly have any) but my distaste for the country has little to do with that. otherwise i wouldn't like lucerne, either - and i do like it. switzerland is also closely tied to calvinism, an extremely anti-art, anti-culture movement... rousseau, a historical great i despise... swiss food is mostly mediocre or awful. and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, r12, to me geneva and zürich are ugly. they are not baroque masterpieces but neither are they medieval, renaissance, neo-classical or ANY KIND OF masterpieces. well constructed? well.... we'll have to agree to disagree

i do admit i'm biased, though

gros con

thank you, r19

the swiss know how to take care of their nature - everything is clean, the air is wonderful, the forests a joy to walk in - but that's it. that's not part of their cities.

Not ugly, but disappointments have been Franfurt, Regensburg (the Medieval buildings all have these post WWII stucco facades with zero character), Berlin- Both the East and the West did some hideous architecture in the 1950s-1970s. The new buildings are soulless glass boxes. Cheminitz- OK nobody goes there unless they have to, but not pretty town.

A surprise was Groß Klein. Some actually rather nice Soviet era apartment blocks.

Düsseldorf. Good museum, though.

There is no way Swiss cities are the ugliest in Europe and you certainly didn't present any evidence or an argument. You don't like Swiss people and in fact nobody is suggesting Swiss people are wonderful or that Switzerland's biggest cities are tourist wonderlands but they are quite attractive and consistently in ranked In the world's most pleasant cities to live. It's not all about tourism. Grey in the winter, but that's why people go up to the mountains. Which of course there is plenty of time and money to do, as a Swiss professional.

Bratislava, Slovakia. Sure, it has a cute Old Town square that looks identical to every other Eastern bloc city that wasn't bombed out in the war. But the other parts of the city have these hideous post Soviet monstrosities they're really proud of.

Athens, terrible traffic, hideous architecture, like Birmingham with palm trees.

r26 you are putting words in my mouth. don't do that. i said nothing about liking or disliking swiss people. i said i disliked their architecture. architecture=houses, not people. now leave me alone

Stayed in a hotel underneath this radio tower in Bratislava.

R20 Athens really is ugly as sin but surely the muscular descendants of Greek Gods walking around the place make up for the ugly cityscape a bit, huh?

I thought Thessaloniki was a lot more charming. Unfortunately there's plenty of ugly architecture on display there too, since most of the town centre burned down about a century ago, but the place still seems a lot more inviting than Athens.

and for the record, i never said the swiss cities are the ugliest in europe, r26. i haven't been to every european city. the thread is about the ugliest european cities one has VISITED. and of all the european cities i've visited, the swiss were the ugliest. they may be beautiful to you but they are not to me.

and again, it's about the buildings and lack of high art (of the sort i'm interested in), not people....

[quote]the muscular descendants of Greek Gods walking around the place make up for the ugly cityscape a bit, huh?

Can't argue with you there!

This thread is the epitome of white people problems. smh.

R34, fortunately shaking your head doesn't do any harm since you brain has fallen out.

R24 I am quite close from Regensburg! How dare you :-( What did you do there? And Regensburg is beautiful!

Do you have any examples of ugly architecture of Swiss cities R29? R24: I don't get the charm of Berlin either

Bist du ein Deutscher R36?

[quote]Rotterdam is an example of how many cities that were destroyed in WW2 suffered from horrible post-war reconstructon--cheap, shoddy, ugly "Modernism."

I was going to say the same exact thing about Stockholm. A nineteen fifties nightmare.

r37

unfortunately i don't. ugliness is also subjective, i think, and i never take photos of buildings/areas i find ugly when i travel. i try to capture only the very best - and there are nice spots in the cities i've called ugly but showing them wouldn't really explain why i've found the cities OVERALL lacking in beauty and/or charm.

another option would be googling random pictures in the hopes i'll have that "aha! i remember this hideous little monster of a house" and linking those images here... sorry to disappoint you, since you were so polite.

I feel sorry for Bratislava - its old town centre is very cute (though totally boring) but someone after the war thought it was a good idea to build a fucking freeway that cuts through its historic core, right in front of the entrance to the cathedral. Hundreds of centuries old buildings were destroyed to build that road and that bizarre-looking monstrosity of a bridge.

That was a stinky linky:

This thread is very much about American expectations of Europe: Quaint 19th century historicism, medieval chocolate box architecture. You know, Oxford, Dresden, Paris, Heidelberg Prag are sooo pretty. Most Europeans prefer cities with a modern, urban architecture. Like London, Berlin, Warsaw. Mix of old and new buildings.

I recently met two American couples in Munich who were disappointed that not all of Germany was some Aryan Disneyland.

Yep, Stockholm's horrible R39

OP is crazy. Prishtina is an awesome city. Spent time there the past two summers. The National Library is one of the coolest buildings I’ve ever seen. It’s actually the background screen image on my phone. (The people, food and coffee are amazing too, but I know that has nothing to do with and “ugly” city, still Prishtina and Kosovo are awesome.)

Belgrade: brutalist architecture, choking smog, kids trying to wash windshields at stop lights. The guy I was with gave them cash (paper currency) and they threw it back cause it was useless.

Gamla Stan is cute(sy), but the center of the city is just as R39 said. And the main bus station is a nightmare.

R45, Prishtina is a concrete heap. Even Kosovans say so. I am adding Wiesbaden to the list. Strictly for fans of drab.

Any city with post-war modernist (i.e. cheaply done) residential and commercial building will have its ugliness. These European cities you guys are talking about, at least the ones I've been to, are only ugly in contrast with their glamorous old selves, as imagined by tourists and often as extant in the "old quarter." Compared to most American cities, which have had nothing but cheap postwar construction and look like expansive warehouse districts, they're perfectly fine. Bratislava has its unfortunate areas, but also has—outside of the old quarter—tree-lines boulevards with Belle Epoque architecture—probably too crumbling and poorly cared for for you perfectionists, but still beautiful.

R45 = Hashim Thaci

Bradford, England.

Athens is dumpy.

Most of the cities in Britain's Midlands & northern industrial belts: Newcastle, Hull, Coventry, Sheffield, Birmingham...Manchester is flat out ugly, but can be fun.

Many Italian cities, but especially some southern ones. Bari is awful.

Naples & Palermo are in sad shape, but if you get past the facades, can be pretty amazing. You need to be "in" with locals to discover the real cities there.

Marseille is gross & sketchy as hell.

Monte Carlo. What a dump!

Dublin is quite unattractive.

R38 Ich bin Bayer. Bist du ein Ami?

Any place looks good compared to most American cities. I spent Christmas in Phoenix. It is the definition of ugly.

R36, We were there for two nights. I don't hate Regensburg, but it is not a beautiful city. Yes, a great deal of the Medieval city sill exists. However, Regensburg was a very poor city after the war and most of the facades have very utilitarian fronts with the same stucco work found on modern buildings and the windows enlarged to fit modern stock windows. Unlike some German cities, they did not even leave some bits of the facade without stucco to reveal portions if the Medieval architectural details. It is like a American city whose Victorian buildings are all covered by 1950s storefronts. For Germans, I am sure it is a very functional city. I enjoyed the Stadttheater Regensburg. The Roman History is fascinating. But, beautiful, it ain't.

I give the city credit for not being Rothenburg ob der Tauber, which truly is the Disney version.

Just an FYI, I spend a great deal of time in Germany and have been to many cities and towns off of the beaten track for Americans. I have something to compare Regensburg to other than Nürnberg and Munich.

i'm the 'swiss city hater' - i was born and raised in europe. i have yet to travel to the USA so i'm only comparing the swiss cities i've visited to other european cities... and while i'm european, i also love my 19th century historicism, castles and medieval chocolate box architecture. i like my unesco sites. i don't think it's a bad thing. i also love the modern, stylish new buildings of madrid and valencia. it doesn't have to be 'old' to be beautiful.

DL is probably mostly visited by americans - so it's to be expected that most of the opinions shared here will be those of american natives. i offered a totally european perspective, though - and by no means do i think i'm objective or unbiased. other european natives may well have different opinions...

[quote] I don't hate Regensburg, but it is not a beautiful city.

Not beautiful?!

London. Ugliest men, too.

R58, look beyond the church spires and the tile roofs. You can seen plainly the generic stucco facades. Flat planes of colored stucco with modern proportioned windows. Functional but dull, no Medieval details at all. The buildings could be from 1600, 1900, or 2000.

Most of Europe, and I include the UK, is an homage to dry rot and deterioration. No matter what beautiful section of most Euro cities you're in you can bet that you're no more than a block or so away from a section that is more depressing than most anyplace you've ever been.

Manchester suffered the same fate as many UK cities in that whatever the Germans managed not to destroy the City planners ruined in the 1950/60s.

It is much improved since The IRA managed to bomb the centre in 1996 though, nobody was killed and it utterly destroyed a good deal of the 60's 'redevelopment'.

Some parts are quite nice now.

R60 Where are you from? I want to have an American boyfriend!

And Regensburg is beautiful, it still has preserved its old charm. You are not able to value beauty.

Minsk, Belarus is not "Bella."

I love Switzerland and found all the cities charming EXCEPT CHUR, that town was the pits. Extremely rude people, no pretty architecture , they did have a red light in one window. Must have been it's main tourist draw.

R66 I was several times in Chur. It does have some not that nice looking buildings and an ugly looking modern church, but the old town is beautiful and the scenery around it is nice. You are a stupid American. It is far from being 'the pits'.

There's a whole community out there for whom Soviet/Socialist Modernism (and Brutalism too) are LIFE itself. I'm part of that community. I can objectively see that a building is ugly but subjectively appreciate that there's nothing else like it. Prishtina certainly isn't the greatest example of this but the Boro Ramiz there is a fucking wet dream.

Coire is more like a town (32K) than a city to be discussed on such a thread. It's pleasant enough.

OP: Those buildings look like they're infested with large anal warts.

Brutalist sports complexes are sexually evocative.

r64, wishing for an American boyfriend is like my wanting to live in Germany. I may want Lübbenau or Ahrenshoop but I am likely to end up with Chemnitz or Norhausen. (I am married also, unfortunately.)

Interesting that you would want a boyfriend who is not able to value beauty. ; )

I can value beauty. Heck, I can appreciate some of the Soviet era Apartment blocks. However, many German cities are functional rather than beautiful. I prefer that to the towns that exist solely for American tourists.

To answer your question, I live in New Hampshire, but I am in Germany for 4-6 months out of the year for various trade fairs. Where are you from, if near Regensburg? What German cities do you like? Particularly those that Americans would not consider going to.

Naples, though gritty and dirty, has one of the greatest museums in the world: the Archaeological Museum. It includes the treasures of Pompeii.

Rr43 To be fair and this to all this First World problems etc, the views most people outside of Europe have of Europe has as much to do with the Tourist propaganda that is thrust down everyone’s throats whenever Europe is mentioned.

Germany, according to many Travel Agents , are full of gorgeous Medieval towns and quaint cottages. That is not the fault of the KKK, that is the fault of every Hollywood movie and tourist ad ever. That people fall for it it is not a miracle. It is that they don’t is the miracle..

R72 I always recommend Regensburg. And it is beautiful. The surrounding areas and the Bavarian Forest are also nice. Maybe you haven't looked close enough.

You can check out Bamberg. I have never really travelled through many German cities.

I want you to have as an American Daddy :P I am not really beautiful either, so you not being able to appreciate beauty suits me!

Amsterdam.

[quote]We all know Europe is the continent with the "prettiest" towns in the world

Do we really? Eurocentricism at its finest.

I can’t believe you thought Amsterdam was an ugly city r76?

I can well believe Athens is ugly it is the most consistent thing I hear about it .

R 77 You are on a thread about European cities you are going to get people who are Eurocentric, it sort of comes with the thread interest.

Oslo. I'm Norwegian.

R75, funny you should mention Bamburg. It was one of out favorite towns. We would have our anniversary dinner at the hotel/old mill in the middle of the river every year. The hotel sold out and the property is now a Wursthaus. The family hotel we stayed at was taken over by the son and is now very business class. We have moved our attentions East. Potsdam is our new favorite.

I have to point out that since Bamberg is a Viking River Cruise stop, it is hardly unknown to Americans.

I will talk to my husband. We could think of you as a pet that can feed and walk itself. I happen to be quite fond of Bruegel's and Bosch's work; so, I am sure I could find some beauty in you.

European cities can be very pretty in the very center of the city. But once you are outside of those lovely pink holes, it's shit.

Frankfurt is hard to like at first. The City Center has about as much charm as the Chicago Loop, and the fact that as soon as you walk out of the main train station you're in the Redlight District and surrounded by junkies doesn't help with first impressions either.

No town's perfect though, and if you're willing to get out of downtown you'l quickly find that Frankfurt is full of wonderful parks and interesting neighborhoods. I've been going for 30 years, and it's become my favorite German City.

Brest, Dublin, Rotterdam. Often dismal, though interesting.

Belfast and (London)Derry, Northern Ireland...just NO!

If you look for ugliness, you will certainly find it. Why not focus on the beautiful in any place and try to get to know a town or city before summarily rejecting it because it did not fit your pre-conceived notions?

the Hague

R85, because life is short and travel is expensive.

r1, Have you been to Stein-am-Rhein, Switzerland? Because it's beautiful.

r62, The same can be said of any major city, any country. Not very insightful.

I like seeing old Audrey Hepburn films set in Paris because there is no pyramid, no Defense, no Bastille, no Tour Montparnasse. The city seen in high def VistaVision in the Bonjour Paris number in Funny Face is breathtaking.

God knows what else corrupt Parisians are now doing to destroy the beauty of their city. How laughable they objected to EuroDisney.

To all the Naples haters, I hate you back. It’s my favourite large Italian city. It may not be chocolate box pretty and cookie cutter tourist friendly like a Florence, Venice, or Positano; but it’s fucking interesting and alive!!! I have never been bored there and have been returning every year despite getting my nice Canon camera snatched eight years ago. People are amazing and much more open to strangers and foreigners than the dull, frigid industrial North. Fantastic food and culture. I 💕 💗 💖 Naples and am here to defend her honor.

Now the U.K. has its share of cities deserving of your disdain:

Bradford, 🇬🇧

Luton 🇬🇧

Birmingham 🇬🇧

Middlesbrough 🇬🇧

Blackpool 🇬🇧

Hull 🇬🇧

Slough 🇬🇧

Belfast 🇬🇧

Londonderry 🇬🇧

Swansea 🇬🇧

Belfast 🇬🇧

Glasgow 🇬🇧

Naples is architecturally magnificent though very dirty and crawling with too many people but I was touring it with a native and he was pointing out all the mafioso to me and I just wanted to get the hell out of there.

Foggia 🇮🇹

Genoa 🇮🇹

Lens 🇫🇷

Le Havre 🇫🇷

Vigo 🇪🇸

Benidorm 🇪🇸

Aalborg 🇩🇰

Malmo 🇸🇪

Donetsk 🇺🇦

Foggia was another city bombed to hell during the war. I have visited it many times because I have friends there but I can't imagine why a tourist would want to see it.

People (tourists and pilgrims) use Foggia to get to get to San Giovanni Rotondo which is too small to accommodate all the visitors. Oh, and I forgot Brindisi 🇮🇹 . Awful.

Between Dublin and Naples. Never seen so much garbage in the streets in the latter. East Glasgow was pretty bad, after just coming from Edinburgh (which is amazing).

Another really ugly city is Chisinau, the capital of Moldova. I think Prishtina, Podgorica (in Montenegro) and Chisinau are without a doubt the ugliest European capital cities. There are some other not-so-pretty capitals there but those three are the only ones where you literally won't find a single thing or building worthy of your attention.

Just look at this postcard from Chisinau. Would you send something like this back home from your trip?

This is the main attraction in Chisinau, the so-called "Gates of Chisinau". Even the Kosovo national library is a marvel compared to this:

R97, actually, it looks a lot like Florida in the 1960s.

And here's Podgorica. Beautiful natural setting but a dreadful city:

Chisinau gets points for brutal honesty in postcards! Got to love that.

My grandfathers did a lot of traveling in the earlier part of the 20th century through Europe, South America and southeast Asia and loved what they saw. I envy them those experiences.

So when we were in Podgorica the locals told us we couldn't possibly leave their town without seeing the famous "Sahat Kula". Me and my friend spent quite some time searching for this mysterious object but in the end it turned out to be a small and totally unfascinating clock tower from the Ottoman era (probably the only structure in that town that's more than 50 years old). It looked so lame I didn't even bother taking my camera out of the backpack.

Another vote for Marseilles. God, what an ugly little port town.

Though I did have sex with a hung Italian when I was there.

Well at least they had something, anything to be proud of, and bothered to be enthusiastic about it.

Marseilles was supposed to have been very beautiful before the drug trade took it over.

I've been to San Giovanni Rotondo and that Padre Pio stuff is nuts. But then I'm a former Catholic so that even the magnificent Catholic artwork has to me a creepy 8th avenue homoerotic 70s vibe.

My grandfather went there while Pio was still alive and that holy Italian Catholic fucker refused to bless him! I guess my grandfather had a bad aura or something but still.

R67 , THANKS FOR YOUR OPINION AND UTTER DICKHEAD RUDENESS.

R107 Did you switch religion or just drop God from your life altogether?

Oslo didn’t strike me as a very nice looking city, even the royal palace looks boring and utilitarian. I also had the misfortune of making a short trip there when it was raining, which added to the gloom. I spent most of the days in the bathhouse haha!

DL never disappoints. Agree with most here. Bombed out cities are generally horribly ugly - most of Germany, Rotterdam, UK industrial cities. Post war brutalism and cheap construction eliminated any charm or interest.

And agree Belfast, Derry and Dublin are not worth your time other than a night upon arrival. Ireland is all about the countryside. Maybe Galway.

Same for Switzerland - it’s all about the countryside and small mountain towns. Like Murren. Cities are bland. Not as bad as the bombed out cities but nothing particularly worth more than one night.

Just like Europeans come to US for uniquely American cities like NY, LA and Chicago, Americans go to Europe for uniquely European cities like Prague, Paris, Rome, Amsterdam.

Well was the cock ugly? Big?

Dropped religion, God, spirituality, karma... pretty much everything. Went through and saw too much nonsensical pain and suffering to think there is any point to any of it. Didn't help either that at a very young age went to parochial school and felt that the priests and nuns were not nice people. I couldn't say that they even did anything specifically bad but they simply seemed unpleasant unhappy people trapped without hope in jobs they didn't like.

Bucharest, Romania and Sofia, Bulgaria are rather depressing. I visited both this past year and was not impressed. The huge Palace of Parliament in Bucharest is interesting and perhaps some of the streets with buildings lovingly called "the little Paris" are beautiful, but look a bit dated. As for Sofia, there are a few older buildings of interest, but it looks like any other large city.

I can't agree about Dublin. Granted, there is no skyline, but it avoided WW2 bombardment (unlike London, Birmingham, Coventry et al), and there hasn't been massive levelling of the city centre for recent development (that's all happening on the riverfront east of the centre and is much like what's happening in Copenhagen). Merrion Square and other Georgian nabes are just adorable.

R115 I was going to say the same thing ! I found Dublin gorgeous and the Georgian buildings and the people, I loved it totally.

Now I am an Anglophile but try as I might I did not fall in love with Glasgow. People are lovely and fantastic Art Gallery and University, but it was a bit plain.

Funnily enough Glasgow ended up being what I thought Manchester would be, Industrial. I loved Manchester but I thought I would love Glasgow, no not at all.

Dublin is definitely better than Belfast. But small and plain. Fine but never found it worth hanging around in.

r59=Megan Markle

On the opposite end of the spectrum, NYT recently did a hit piece on dilapidated, filthy, decaying and corrupt, Rome. But I think it’s testament to Rome’s timeless beauty that no matter how hard humans try, they cannot take that from her. Knowing Italians, it will take at least a decade before something is done.

Luton

Say what you want about Athens, but the plaka is one of my favorite places on earth. It’s so lively and fun. I’m going back for a 4th time in 2019. Jealous bitches?

Well sure, Athens has a few lovely spots (like those few streets around Plaka) but for such a huge city it's very short on nice places. Constantinople would probably be the capital of Greece today, if it weren't for the Ottoman conquest of 1453. After the decline of Ancient Greece Athens became a totally unimportant place (which is the reason the only significant monuments in that city date back to the ancient times) and Constantinople became the new centre of Greek culture. That would have been a far worthier capital of such a country.

can we post some pictures along with the city names?

[quote]Now I am an Anglophile but try as I might I did not fall in love with Glasgow.

That's quite all right, since Glasgow is not in England.

Behold Blackpool. How do you manage to make a seaside resort ugly?

R80 I'd love to have two American daddies! I am 27, albeit still a virgin. Could you pretend to have an English accent? I love English lads!

How can we get in contact? I am also a bottom btw!

For all the talk on architecture, to me a city is about its people and if the ppl are shit, it would follow the city will be shitty.

I’ll add my vote for Belgrade. The people were nice, though.

I quite liked Sofia. Not a lot of architectural interest, but a lot of small galleries and shops. I enjoyed it more than I expected.

R67, I have just blocked you on all three Internet devices. Thank you, for your Interest in my so called stupidity.

Back in the 70's we took a few bus tours while we were vacationing in Spain.

That's all I got. It's been 40 years. Certainly something was ugly at a bus stop although calling the area a city might be a stretch.

There were no Stuckey's in Spain as far as I could tell. So that was a plus.

R128 Yeah, Belgrade is a great example of a place that's not much to look at but still fun to visit due to its lively atmosphere and friendly locals. Not to mention all the tall and hung Serbian men walking around. Serbs are super friendly, as long as you don't start discussing politics with them.

Mont Saint Michel. Dreadful little hovel. Not even a pottery barn or place to get a decent Tom Collins.

How gay-friendly is Serbia R131?

R133 Not very. It's just as homophobic as the rest of the Balkans (especially the orthodox countries), meaning I wouldn't go around waving a rainbow flag if I were you.

Brussels

I agree about Dublin, though people are so nice & charming, it makes up for any deficiencies

Glasgow doesn't compare beauty-wise to Edinburgh, though our resident Scotland expert that used to post here said Glasgow was an awesome party place

I agree with the poster about Phoenix; it seems less a city than just a massive amount of sprawl, though there are some pretty areas like Scottsdale

So aside from the places that are just broken from war or poverty, it seems that the less attractive places like Belgrade, Dublin and Glasgow have more charm and character - sort of like less attractive people

R129 Lol, I am not a troll and I abhor Donald Trump and love gay Americans. I am German btw!

Ostend, Belgium - high rise apartments built right up to the beachfront in a wall of ugly

LIvorno, ITaly - one of those very modern places mostly because so much was destroyed in WWII

Rotterdam - see above

Kassel, Germany - see above, also saw graffiti "Rudolf Hess Lieben" (Hess had died a few days before)

Napoli is a mess but it's gorgeous, the people are nice, the food, the art... i love that it's one of those places not yet totally Disney-fied

When Fellini was still alive it pained him that so many of the great Roman neighborhoods had been destroyed and forgotten.

And Mastroianni was saddened by the Americanization of the great European cities he had known when he was young.

John Gielgud retired to the country while still working because it was too much to see what had happened to London.

[quote]Behold Blackpool. How do you manage to make a seaside resort ugly?

Have you ever been to Atlantic City? Myrtle Beach?

I really enjoyed the ancient Roman ruins of Pompeii and Herculaneum. I wasn’t impressed with Pompei (the city) and the town of Ercolano.

This is the view of Ercolano from Herculaneum.

R137 you are wasting you breath. Even though stats say that 45 % of us are from other countries, other the the US, Americans are unable to take criticism from other countries unless they believe you are a Russian troll and block you.

For all their great belief in their own tolerance, at heart they are as intolerant as the Deplorables they mock.

However I still find Americans hot. Maybe cause they all sound like porn stars

Dortmund

R137, I love Germans and German soccer. Off topic, but are there Bundesliga stars with gay rumors? If yes, please respond on the soccer thread at link.

Back on topic, Dortmund is not pretty, but great ⚽️ club.

Picture of Dortmund

Where's my American daddy?

Oslo is so fucking ugly. I'm embarrassed to call it our capital. I do travel to Oslo from time to time as I don't live that far away. No matter what, Oslo will always be our biggest city and literally the only city that has culture, music and a gay scene.

[Quote]I’ll add my vote for Belgrade. The people were nice, though.

Why would you ever go to that homophobic shithole? Serbia is one of the most homophobic countries in all of Europe. I'm sure you didn't tell them you were gay, if you had you might have seen them be "not so pleasant".

Welcome to Belgrade! Looks lovely, right?

This one is interesting. Serbia ends up with zero points. Note the minus points for religious influence, anti-gay laws and locals hostile.

I was once in Amsterdam and was shocked to see litter everywhere. There were literally piles of garbage on the streets. It smelled and it was disgusting.

R39 I disagree. Stockholm is very pretty.

[Quote]OP: Those buildings look like they're infested with large anal warts.

Nailed it.

Yes, we get - Serbia is homophobic. But then again, so is 90 % of the world. If you want to visit some countries other than a handful of US states and Western European places you simply have to accept that fact. I know homophobia is a trait very difficult to overlook but if you manage to see past that you'll see that they're super friendly people...And hot, in a eurotrashy sort of way.

How hot are Serbian men really? Are they DTF?

London ugly, There is nothing beautiful or spectacular about that city. Plus people are cold as hell. Huge disappointment.

Manchester ugly.

Brussels ugly, but people are cool

Barcelona ugly, looks like a cheap city but people are pleasant

Paris is still Paris gorgeous. I was intrigued with everything I had read on the internet and it turned out that it was completely false. There is no area of lawlessness you know "the no go zones" that the Trump base is talking about all over the internet doesn't exist. Everything was beautiful. And i met a hot French guy there.

Amsterdam is stunning and people are so warmful. Rome is beautiful but people are not that kind. Too nervous.

R157 Did you fuck him, you slut?!

Istanbul

R159 Istanbul is not in Europe

R160 Half of it is (the historic part with all the famous Byzantine and Ottoman monuments). In fact, it's the only city in the world lying on two different continents.

R161 I know but Istanbul is everything but not a European city. Not culturally, not at the architectural level. Turkey is located much towards Syria than towards Europe. Europeans do not see the Turks as Europeans

R158 Yes I did all night long.

Sheffield. Unbelievably ugly. The new architecture that's just been built is gobsmackingly nihilist. What's more astounding is that it borders some of the most beautiful countryside on Earth. And Chatsworth is just down the road.

Glasgow is interesting in that both the city AND the people are ugly. Everyone, male and female, looks like they were seriously bashed up at some time in their life. And when one leaves the city, the depressing public housing goes on forever. Forever and ever and ever.

Rotterdam, like most Dutch cities, is just quietly depressing. All modern dutch architecture, mostly blocky, is quietly despressing. The fact that the first thing one sees as the train pulls in is the most massive mosque clues you in. You might think you were in Turkey, but Turkey doesn't feel like a multicultural nowheresville. Rotterdam does.

Can someone start an Ugly American cities thread ?

R165 Yasss ! Let's do that please !

Amsterdam isn't ugly, but apart from a few canals, it's just acres of brown brick: both vertical and horizontal. And something I cannot understand: every canal is cluttered with ugly houseboats. If I was mayor I'd burn them all, and return the canals to the people.

R165, it would be pointless unless there was some criterion. Every American city is ugly. There may be pockets of nice areas, but basically they are all shit. We have no sense of historic preservation. Only a few of the most important building are protected, and those can be demolished or remuddled if the owner claims financial hardship... or just decides "oops, my bad. I knocked it down." Example, the destruction of Fifth Ave and 57th Street in the 1980s. There is no city planning. San Francisco tried. The skyline was protected, until the 1980s. But that did not last. A better, but short thread would be beautiful American cities.

I lived in San Francisco in the 80's, briefly. I thought aesthetically, SF needed more towers, but not bulky ones, and to get rid of the height limit for a more varied skyline downtown.

As Instanbul was the last stronghold of the Roman Empire well into the Middle Ages it can definitely count as European. And it’s far from ugly.

R68 there is an architectural exhibit at MoMA that showcases the architecture of Yugoslavia. It's actually pretty cool. Very Star Wars looking.

I think Rotterdam is kind of cool and cutting edge.

Dublin is charming. WTF is wrong with you people?

R171 Yeah, this monument in Kruševo (Macedonia) looks like a spaceship:

[quote] Can someone start an Ugly American cities thread ?

We've had that many times.

[quote]swiss food is mostly mediocre or awful

Shut your whore mouth. Fondue is from Switzerland.

Switzerland is one of the few countries where McDonald's is edible, as its almost entirely Swiss produced ingredients. They had to hedge a bit this year and mix in some Austrian beef. Swiss dairy and Swiss meat tastes good - even the non organic stuff.

Most large cities have ugly areas. Older cities like London which suffered extensive aerial bombardment during WW II often have post-war urban blight adjacent to beautiful areas. I stay at a B&B in Hammersmith. The area around the tube station is ugly but if you walk a short distance south to the River Thames and then walk west along the embankment you're in another world. It suffered a lot of bomb damage but there are still many charming riverfront villas and gardens.

Really? 75 years later?

[quote]Amsterdam is stunning and people are so warmful.

"Warmful?"

[quote]Amsterdam isn't ugly, but apart from a few canals, it's just acres of brown brick: both vertical and horizontal. And something I cannot understand: every canal is cluttered with ugly houseboats. If I was mayor I'd burn them all, and return the canals to the people.

The other thing to remember about the houseboats is that the vast majority discharge their sewage directly into the canals. They're slowly trying to get them to hook up to sewer, but in the meantime it's another reason not to fall into the canals.

R179 By post-war urban blight I mean the 1950s, 1960s housing estates that were built on land cleared of rubble.

Has anyone been to Sarajevo? I was in Mostar (which is gorgeous), but regret not going to Sarajevo.

Bosnians are very friendly and welcoming.

Sarajevo is amazing and it has a unique, multicultural character. I believe it's the only city in the world where you can find a mosque, a catholic church, a synagogue and an orthodox church located within one square mile. And it has a gorgeous natural setting, totally surrounded by high hills. It's fun to visit the decaying remnants of the 1984 Winter Olympic Games up in those hills. Walking on the bobsleigh track is particularly fun (but I heard recently that they're planning to demolish it).

[quote]Sarajevo is amazing and it has a unique, multicultural character. I believe it's the only city in the world where you can find a mosque, a catholic church, a synagogue and an orthodox church located within one square mile.

You couldn't find that it some major US or UK city?

Bari. Spent a summer and winter there on a job. There's about a half mile in the old town that's beautiful, the rest is an industrialised wasteland without the actual industry.

I spent only one afternoon in Bari years ago. The only thing I remember about it is that I had the best pizza of my life there.

Did it have turnip greens on it? I remember panzerotti, turnip greens, and nothing else. The cuisine was as limited as the city.

I loved Sarajevo for the same reasons R183 did (were you my travelling companion?!)

"As Instanbul was the last stronghold of the Roman Empire well into the Middle Ages it can definitely count as European".

Istanbul wasn't the last stronghold of the Roman empire" and NEVER was considered as an European country and will never be. The Turks want to force things to be part of Europe but they will never succeed. The Turks also colonized Greece for a very long time but the Greeks have not yet become Turks. And Turks were more into Ottoman Empire than Roman Empire and they think they are Europeans ? They tried to join Europe but Europeans told them : NO. NIET. NON. Several times. Europeans will never accepted them.

R170 Istanbul an European country ? Since when ?? Some people need to stop dreaming. If Europe tell them yes so countries bordering Turkey such as Iran, Syria and Iraq could claim to become Europeans too ? In any case we do not share the same values or the same culture at all. And in addition Turks are muslims. I wonder why they want so much to be a part of a club that has always refused them to begin with. They can keep their dictator, Erdogan. We don't need it in Europe

Athens

R191 - since 660 BC?

"Istanbul is one of the world's most populous cities and ranks as the world's fourth-largest city proper and the largest European city."

R193 LOL THEY WISH ! But at least, as you can see they are NOT a part of Europe. Deal with it ! Last time i checked Europeans told them NO. Once again ! And it's too easy to take only the Roman empire when we all know that they established the Ottoman Empire. YOu can say what you want, Europeans don't want them as a part of Europe. They never wanted to

[post redacted because independent.co.uk thinks that links to their ridiculous rag are a bad thing. Somebody might want to tell them how the internet works. Or not. We don't really care. They do suck though. Our advice is that you should not click on the link and whatever you do, don't read their truly terrible articles.]

This thread is dedicated to bashing ugly European cities, not its people. So please, start your own thread for that, thank you very much.

And this Thread is about Europeans cities and Turkey is not an European country. Never was. End of the story

R193 So the argument of the Turks is that they were colonized by the Roman Empire. As far as I know, Egypt too. Israel too, and many others countries were the victims of the Roman Empire. Should Egypt claim the right to be European when they are in Africa ? There is no debate on that. The Ottoman Empire is the origin of the Arab conquest comes from Turkey. So according to you all the arab countries should claim to be Turks ?? I would like to understand how it makes them European. At some point, you have to stop masturbating your brain. Turkey must be respected, but it is clearly not part of Europe.

PART of Turkey is in Europe. The Bosporus strait separates Europe and Asia - and the city of Istanbul straddles BOTH sides of the strait. What is so hard to understand about that?

So the city of Istanbul is in BOTH Europe and Asia. It is a "transcontinental" city. Its commercial and historical center lies on the European side and about a third of its population lives on the Asian side. Istanbul is viewed as a bridge between the East and West.

PART of Russia is in Europe and part is in Asia, so Turkey is not the only country that is transcontinental. Probably others I don't know about - Ukraine? Well, anyway, get a grip and accept reality, Mr. Turkey hater, because part of Turkey definitely IS in Europe.

Maybe you're confusing Europe with the "EU". Quite a few European countries are not part of the EU, but they're still in Europe - Norway, Switzerland, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Ukraine, Iceland, etc.

R199 You are so delusional. Why don't you understand that Europe told you NO ??? You were never a part of their club. Time to accept it. And no, no one in Europe is confusing EU and Europe. You simply NOT a part of Europe history and culture. Empire ottoman never was European. And it won't change no matter what. The fact is Europeans don't want you. Wake up !

R199 Turkey borders : Syria, Irak, Iran. More than in Europe. Only one look on the map is enough to understand. Turkish dictatorial regimes do not match with Europe. Their religion either. Never in the European kingdoms have there been any alliances with Turkey. Spain, France, England, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Belgium, Italy, Hungary, Georgia, Ukraine, Slovenia, etc. All these Europeans countries were always together even if they made terribles wars, they always were together. But never with Turkey and there are reasons for that. Should we remind you of what Turkey did with Greece or Armenia? Definitely NO. Signed a Finnish.

What about Israel ?

R202 Israel is not in Europe you champ

R203 But it’s in Eurovision and shares European culture

R201 Turkey was an ally in WW1

R203 Israel participates in Eurovision just like Australia do because they are too isolated countries. Arab and Muslim countries are not isolated they just want to be part of a story that is not theirs. Jews were in Europe since a long time ago that's why. And yes Turkey in the WWI was an ally but it doesn't mean that they are European. Israel is not an European country either

[quote]So the argument of the Turks is that they were colonized by the Roman Empire.

If the Turks believe they were colonised by Romans they need to hit the history books. The Seljuk Turks - originally from Central Asia - conquered Constantinople (now Istanbul). Constantinople was founded by the Roman Emperor Constantine at the site of an Ancient Greek city Byzantium which is why modern historians claim the post-Constantine eastern Roman Empire as the Byzantine Empire even though the citizens of Constantinople considered themselves Roman.

Historically, Istanbul has been Roman FAR longer than it’s been Turkish. You can argue that Turkey shouldn’t be a member of the EU of that contemporary Turkey has little in common with contemporary Europe (but then again, neither does Belarus) but Istanbul is undeniably a European city.

R205 America is an old Europe ally but it doesn't make them European? Get it ?

R207 Lol what about Ottoman empire ?? Which is still your culture. Why do you always forget about that ? Then, almost all the European countries were conquered by the Roman Empire ( Italy), but Italians don't want you in their club. Now will you answer to my question ? Why the hell Turkey wants so bad to be European and to be in the EU ? Why aren't you so passionate about Iraq, Syria, Iran YOUR CLOSEST BORDERS ?

R207 What do you (Turks), have in common with us ? And don't be a coward try to explain this to me please

Erdogan thinks is an European when he wants to kill the Kurds ? Lololol. NEVER !

Whatever, London is not that beautiful, Marseille is an awful city

Well, this was a fun thread until that troll (and the people who bother talking to him) ruined it.

Getting back to the thread subject, I visited Albania a few months ago. A lovely country but the capital city of Tirana is unbelievably ugly. They tried to make that place a bit more cheerful by painting the facades of all those communist-era apartment blocks in some very lively colors but that didn't really help much.

And the gay scene is practically non-existent. It makes even Serbia seem like a gay Mecca in comparison. But apparently the local gays are well connected and are meeting at secret parties and stuff like that. But if you're just a quick visitor to the city you probably won't get a chance to experience the local underground gay nightlife.

Istanbul straddles the Bosporus so part of it is in Europe. The end.

R213 Except that all European countries told you NO. Istanbul is not a part of Europe. FACTS. The Real End. La fin du film

R208 That poster stated Turkey never allied with the Europeans

R214 Only your own opinion. It’s debatable.

R201 I agree Turkey is one of the most homophobic country i have ever visited. And nothing is european there. More like Maghreb. Not to mention that Istanbul is ugly as fuck Rotterdam is one ugly city too

R216 how come only in my opinion when officially Europe told you no ?! Since you are incapable to answer to my question there is no debate at all. You are still not a part of Europe. Officially and culturally.

R218 You are plain xenophobic

Fuck this whole Turkey/Istanbul nonsense. Let's get back to the actual content of this thread. Those that want to continue debating that mess can start their own thread to do so. Thank you.

R220 Yup time to end up this non debate. Turkey is NOT a part of Europe. Europe said NO. And European are sovereigns !

R219 And you are so homophobic.... <3

R221 You DON’T have the last word you xenophobic fool. Istanbul IS geographically European.

R223 YOU WISH ! But you are NOT. Dry your pathetic tears.

Ok I know people don't really like Oslo, but I found this city so charming. I love Nordic culture they are above of the rest of the world. They were very welcoming. Beautiful memories there.

I know people love London but I look at that skyline and those godawful skyscrapers along the Thames and wonder why God why. And yes NY still had many wonderful pockets until the early 80s. Now I can't understand why people go there. But gazillions do and I hope they crush each other until they suffocate.

Yeah, London's skyline is a hot mess. And in a few decades, when the glass skyscrapers will go out of style, it's gonna look even worse.

NYC's once iconic skyline was also ruined forever by that glass monstrosity that replaced the twin towers.

R226 London is overrated. Never found that city beautiful. BUT you can have good fun in London

NY is more fun than London

R224 You win. Istanbul is NOT an ugly European city. Suck it up

I have to disagree that Glasgow is ugly. I loved it. It has its rough places like any other city but the parks are amazing and the architecture outstanding. Great night life too.

This is a lane in the west end.

R230 Oh dear...Stop now. This thread is not about Istanbul/Turkey. Because of your debate I did some research. And the fact is that Turkey is not part of Europe. Period. We would like you to stop polluting this thread. You are only proving and showing that Europeans are right not to include you as a member European country. Just stop it now, please.

R229 Really ? Tell me more. I always wanted to visit NY

Istanbul isn't ugly so it doesn't matter. Both you cunts STFU.

Okay don't feed the Turkish troll. Just ignore him PLEASE.

Nice to see so much hate for Oslo. Norway reminds me of Switzerland we discussed above a bit - most of the cities in both countries are rather unfortunate-looking but they happen to be surrounded by some of the most spectacular landscapes in the world.

Of course there are a few exceptions, like Bergen and Alesund. The latter feels like seventh heaven for art nouveau enthusiasts like me.

Happy New Year Europe !!! Paris Fireworks was outstanding ! Vive la France, God Bless the Queen England ! Happy New year WORLD !

R237 Happy New Year to you too, darling!

Loved Oslo really loved it. I didn’t expect much but what found was charming and lovely.

R238 awww more kisses please, i'm in love with your gif

The whole Ruhrgebiet area, probably. It's all so charmless and nondescript that I'm not sure how you'd pick the worst city of the lot. Antwerp didn't thrill me. I thought Brussels at least had a bit more character. The Netherlands also has a lot of characterless, drab towns that all run together.

Like R231, I quite liked Glasgow. Of course it has its good and bad areas - show me a city that doesn't. I never found Paris all that beautiful on the whole...quite the opposite.

Athens. Just ugly.

I'm half-Greek and have had to stay there on my way into and out of the country. But the people and restaurants and tavernas are delightful. In a strange way, it reminds me of LA, most of which I despise. Both, for different reasons, had a lack of planning.

After Greece's poor attempt at war with the Ottomans, one million Greeks were kicked out of Turkey in 1921. My 14 year old Grandfather was among them. He ended up in the US. Most fled to Athens. So, the population exploded. A quarter of Greeks still live in Athens. Many of the buildings are apartment blocks that were built -- all looking the same -- in a short period, with little thought of the future. I haven't been since the airport and subway were finished. .Maybe traffic and smog are better.

Toulouse, France. Industrial. The old center is somewhat attractive, but filled with obnoxious students.

Marseilles. Yeah, it's gritty and lots of ghettos, but has its own character. But it's hilly and by the sea. Reminded me of the SF Bay Area in the 1970s.

Milan.

Geneva. It's not ugly, but sterile, like the rest of the country. And I do not like the Swiss.

R241 Well, i don't know where you went in Paris but I went there and it was magical. Seriously this city is beautiful. I know a lot of people are jealous of Paris especially since Trump is bashing the French people for no reason. But i've spent 6 months in this city and i have never been more amazed or happier. The Parisians are people who are in a hurry and are overloaded with tourists all year long. That's why they can sometimes be exhausted or exasperated by the many daily questions they have to deal with. But, nobody can deny that this city is magical. there is something in the walls, in the air, in the people that seem eternal and inhabited. there is something that nobody can explain. Paris is very very beautiful as long as you're not in a tourism trap. And the parisians are more sincere than some others hypocrites. Once they love you, they will do anything for you. I mean anything. that's what my 6 months in Paris taught me. Unforgettable.

Athens is just depressing---dirty with nothing of distinction that isn't an ancient ruin. Zurich isn't exactly ugly, but it's pretty forgettable. Parts of Paris are pretty grim.

R243 Totally agreed with you.Paris is magical. Hemingway knew ! Parisians seems rude at first but when you spent more than 2 weeks in the city you go from surprises to surprises. And you marvel each day. The lifestyle is different from other cities in France. Exactly for the reasons you mentioned. People (tourists) tend to forget that it is a capital. And like all capitals they are in a hurry. But they will never sacrifice their joie de vivre for tourists. Museums, clubs, architecture are just perfections. Sometimes unreal. But the real Parisians do not care. They just want to have some rest and a good living environment. And they hate Trump which is a huge criterion to me. They were so in love with Obama that they never move on after him. What an extraordinary city where almost everyone is cultivated. (spent two wonderful months there)

R245 True that, can't deny that French people are cultivated. I would lie. The French system is different then in the USA. They learn everything about everything and for free. Studies are free in France which makes them more cultured than others countries. And they don't like to be ignorants. They hate it

R243 I lived 4 incredible months in Paris but it was even better in Provence. In the south of France, just a few miles away from French riviera. People were less busy and more authentic. Not to mention the breathtaking landscapes. Avignon, Nimes, Menton, Montpellier, Biarritz are amazing cities. And of course, french gays are the prettiest ! But i hated Belgium and I hated Switzerland.

You can't imagine how much I envy and am happy for those people who have had the opportunity to live for months in a place outside the US that they loved. Due to work never an opportunity I had but it would have been great.

In visiting Paris contrary to expectations some of the Parisians were lovely and helpful. Though I must admit sometimes the waiters and the shopkeepers could be snooty. And they were the ones who were directly getting my money!

[quote]You can't imagine how much I envy and am happy for those people who have had the opportunity to live for months in a place outside the US

Just go, darlin. Take two shirts, two pairs of pants, and a jumper, and you're set to go. What are you going to do: lie on you death bed and wish? The provincial cities are cheap. You can live for months on nothing.

Rome, with all its problems, over Paris for me. That a city can still be beautiful behind piles upon piles of garbage, neglect and decay speaks volumes. Sort out the politics and there will be no reason to complain. But I’d rather live in Naples which is more my vibe. Milan is bland and ugly to me.

R250 Paris behind piles of garbage ? What a troll ! i love how most of Americans coming from boring and ugly cities with much violences talk about Europe being ugly or they pretend to have seen "pile of garbage", when USA is far more dirty and ugly than Europe. But well ok

This thread got so strange. Im Latin American and I do consider Istanbul an European city, even if the rest of Turkey is not.

As for ugly cities, Barcelona may have some gorgeous buildings, but they are so here and there and so few that they cant save the city. The rest of the city is quite ugly.

Rome, r251

R251. Even with Trump, more Europeans want to move to America than Americans who want to live in Europe. Every other young Parisian you speak asks about NY, LA or Miami and how they would love to live there. And more make the actual move than vice versa. Numbers don’t lie.

251 - You wholly misinterpreted the comment that you are replying to. Happy New Year and here's hoping to that people read before they reply on Datalounge and that any comment that doesn't skew with a Datalounger's mind doesn't have it's writer accused of being a Russian Troll. And can superior Europeans stop with the "we aren't racist" nonsense, too? My type is pretty tired of getting caught up in your white on white pissing contest based upon a delusion.

And 254 is right.

Istanbul is in Europe. Leave that nut alone to argue with geography.

Zurich is kind of bland but you can actually swim in Lake Zurich in the middle of the city. they have municipal lake houses with locker rooms where you can change, shower and small cafe/bar to have a snack, and areas to lounge and floating decks you can swim out to and sun on. It's amazing to be in the middle of a large city swimming in the big lake and looking at the surrounding mountains. I also went to a big fair with all kinds of music and vendors, it was very freespirited and cool. It lasts for about a month in some park. I was with a Swiss friend so I just followed that's why the details are a bit hazy. Also they have some nice bars and good chocolate. The public transit is a marvel. They have malls connected to all the transit as a hub with trains, buses etc. They have real retail with shops, cafes etc. It feels very efficient, modern and clean.

R254 Well it's easier for a European to move to the US since most of them know at least the basics of English, while few Americans speak any other languages.

R248 Waiters in France have a decent wages, their income don't depend on tips (even if it make a nice bonus), so their job is to get your food/drinks as quicly as possible on your table, so that you could leave for somebody to take the table, they are not trying to befriend you to get a decent tip and pay their bills. As a client your "job" is to keep the table as long as possible, especially if you are outside and you only ordered a coffee (2€)

If a waiter look grumpy, it's because he deals most of the time with parisians, not the happiest bunch of people...

If you are happy with the speed of the service and your food, you leave 1 or 2 euros as tip, if you only took a coffee, don't tip.

I want to go to Spain, there are so many cities that interest me: Madrid, Segovia, Avila, Salamanca, Toledo, Saragossa, Sevilla, Cordoba, Granada, Ronda, Cadiz.

Oh Jeez, the Turkish troll is back pretending he's a Latina. Must be a 12 years old kid. And we also have R254 who is talking nonsense. 88 % of French people HATE Trump and this won't change and there are NOT a lot of French that want to live in the USA. That was years ago. Parisians ask about LA, NY and others Americans cities because Americans are very numerous in Paris. They come very often to this city. But look closely at the numbers and statistics of immigration in the USA. Do you see so much French ? The fantasies of people is amazing. Oh yes, i'm a Parisian

^ *are amazing

Are Americans seriously convinced that the entire world is just dying to move there? I'm a European and pretty much everyone I know wants to visit America someday, especially NY (since we all grew up watching stuff like Sex and the City and Friends) but I don't know anyone who actually wants to live there. I'm sure your president, food, gun laws, healthcare system and all those crazy racist videos have something to do with that.

R263 Totally agree with you

[quote]If you are happy with the speed of the service and your food, you leave 1 or 2 euros as tip, if you only took a coffee, don't tip.

Thanks for this r259. Is this standard across France and other countries like Spain and Italy? Someone told me never to tip in Italy as the waiter might consider it an insult. Also, how do you tip? Do you explicitly state the amount or just pay cash and tell them to keep the change?

[quote]there are NOT a lot of French that want to live in the USA.

Big oops 🙊 r261 and r263. Not so easy to lie these days when faced with such inconvenient facts. Try again.

R266 OMG can't believe how stupid you are. You are just sending a link who talks about American history since no white comes from America, you are all immigrants there. But to say that the French people in 2018 want to live in America is completely absurd and false. Your link doesn't even talk about the French. it says "Europeans". YOu know that Europe is a big continent right ?

R266 You should read your link before sending. it is written that : "Even though the 1965 Immigration Act did away with country quotas, by then fewer Europeans were seeking to cross the Atlantic either because their economic fortunes had improved during postwar reconstruction or because their communist governments restricted emigration. The fall of the Iron Curtain in the early 1990s ushered in the most recent wave of European immigration, dominated by people from Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. The number of European immigrants in the United States has declined slightly since 2000"

I don't know if this applied to Oslo, but I have read from several sources that Scandinavia has survivor's guilt after WWII and destroyed large portions of their historic cities for that reason.

R269 That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

R265 Yes you pay cash and tell them to keep the money.

R269 Where did you read this ?

R272, i n several books on Gustavian design. Apparently, many fine examples were destroyed after WWII for no good reason. I also remember that there was a film that took place at a Victorian summer house in Scandinavia and the film had to build a replica because most were demolished after WWII and the few that survived were not available for filming.

R267/r268. There are stats of European immigration in 2016. Talk about not reading the link.

"Why, Sir, you find no man, at all intellectual, who is willing to leave London.

No, Sir, when a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford."

I think I have it! Anyone been to Gela, Sicily? Truly a shit-hole that was bombed out in WWII and really never properly rebuilt. Hideous especially because the baroque towns of Siracusa, Ragusa, Noto are near and so beautiful!!

Grimsby. The name says it all.

Sofia, Bulgaria... entire city looks like it needs to be power washed

R274 You're not really bright, are you ? In 2016 or else, French people prefer Canada, England, Scandinavia and Spain, where they immigrate the most. Not many of them immigrate to the US, whether you like it or not. Do you see a lot of French people in the USA ? Stop with your bs. You don't even know what you're talking about. Those who immigrate the most to the usa come from eastern Europe. I'm living in France and you think you know better than me ? You want to have the last word but you'll lose.

I have to agree with the poster above who finds all Swiss cities utterly unremarkable -- ugly in the sense that they show no discernable esthetic of any kind. All those centuries of wealth and stunning locations, and the best they can do is utilitarian, solidly-constructed greige. They managed to make their cities look like the Ruhrpott without a single WWII bomb.

Everything Harry Lime said about Switzerland in that famous scene in The Third Man is proved by their city planning.

On the other hand, I've visited both Sofia and Bucharest in recent years. Yes, both cities are poor and a bit grungy (although EU funds are helping them clean up), and they suffered the full effects of Soviet-era "redevelopment", but they're lively and still have traces of their pre-WWI grandeur. They certainly wouldn't make my list of ugliest cities.

I admit, I haven't been to Switzerland. But Bern and Lucerne look gorgeous to me in photos and Basel doesn't look too shabby either. I lived in Berlin for 8 years, which would never win any prizes for beauty, and neither would Frankfurt, Hamburg, or the dreaded Ruhrgebiet. I find it hard to believe all Swiss cities are less attractive than that - strictly speaking about aesthetics, of course.

[quote]2016 or else, French people prefer Canada, England, Scandinavia and Spain, where they immigrate the most. Not many of them immigrate to the US, whether you like it or not.

So intra-EU migration with no need to meet strict requirements to qualify for a green card and zero chance of rejection? Of course those countries are easier. Dude, I just provided actual stats. Numbers. And you’re arguing against theverifiable fact that we have thousands upon thousands of French migrants (and deportations) every year. Shut up, if you can’t back up your flimsy claims with actual figures.

The sixth largest French city by number of French-born residents is London. I don’t know what that means to the conversation but there you go.

R282 Hahaha you didn't provide anything, you just don't know how to read your own link you idiot. Your link is only talking about "Europeans" but you are unable to understand that there is nothing that says the % of the French immigration in the USA. According to the French last poll Switzerland, Belgium and London are the FIRST destinations for French people, then outside Europe is Canada. NOT THE USA. In 2016 and 2017 Canada made a great recruitment campaign here in France. They wanted French brains. Since then the immigration percentage of the French there have quadrupled. You do not know anything about the French people at all, you just have a fucking big mouth. Keep barking alone like a fool. I feel like I'm reading Trump. You're as uneducated as he is. Pauvre petit merdeux de rikain inculte

R282 Oh and yes in the EU you don't need a green card to work between the 27

Another hit of inconvenient facts for stereotypically unpleasant, stupid, arrogant, and likely smelly, French frog. Top destinations for French emigrants. Does the U.S. feature? See for yourselves, it’s right there ... in chart form.

i'm italian and absolutely no one i know would want to live in the USA ever. we actually make fun of Americans and their absurd laws and lifestyle. everybody wants to move to Portugal or Iceland, tho.

There were a lot of Italians and French in NYC this past weekend. I think all them went to MoMA on the same day.

This gives actual numbers of French emigration and where they’re emigrating to.

Yes r288. holidays in America, sure. Living there? Nevah!

[quote]All those centuries of wealth and stunning locations

Switzerland has not had centuries of wealth. Its current prosperity goes back to the mid 19th century when it became a federation.

It does have stunning locations, though. I've only visited Geneva, which I found dull and expensive. The lake was lovely. We did a little driving in the countryside, which was gorgeous. But architecturally not impressive, from what I could see.

R289 shut up the frog good. French people emigrate to the U.S. in bigger numbers than any country except Switzerland. Now don’t make me come for you too r287. I worked in Viale delle Terme di Caracalla in Roma for four good years. You better lay low, if you know what’s good for you.

I’ve seen some ugly places in the US but if I get a chance to travel by car instead of plane I try to detour to places I’ve never been and I’ve found some hidden gems. Every country, every state has it’s share of commercial districts and industrial slums but go a little out of your way and you’ll find charming vistas.

I try not to expect chocolate box prettiness everywhere, sometimes the beauty of the landscape lies in the clash of colors in tattered old paint or the juxtaposition of shapes. A great sunset bathing everything in rose gold, your state of mind at the time, these things can change your perspective.

R287 Italians will go wherever they can to find a PhD programme or an actual job. Italy is fucked, especially the south. Everyone has to leave for the UK, Germany, or the US to get a PhD or a job.

Why can’t they get PhDs in Italy?

Chelyabinsk, Russia.

Isn't Chelyabinsk in the Asian part of Russia?

Chelyabinsk is close the Ural Mountains, but I was not sure if it was the Asian or European side.

R296 That yellow building (opera house?) and the bridge in front of it look quite nice.

This thread was interesting until the trolls took over first the Turkey obsessed one and then the competing: Europeans want to move to America! troll! vs. the how dare unclean Americans discuss pristine Europe! trolls.

European trolls are lazing about, on the dole, eating croissants and riding pristine public transport to free mental health clinics in the mountains.

Sounds like paradise^^

Charleroi, Belgium.

I believe Charleroi was voted the most depressing city in Europe a few years ago.

Charleroi looks 10x better than any US flyover town tbh

I've never been in Charleroi (minus the airport) but I'm strolling through its town centre on Google Street View right now - it seems totally charmless but I've seen much worse. I guess it's the general atmosphere of the place and the dreary-looking suburbs that give the place a bad rap.

Is there a better quality photo than that novice shit?

I think "ANYTHING BALTIC" i.e. fucking ghetto will win here.

Whatever is the closest to shithole Russia. It's in the cards. It's a given.

Russia has St Petersburg which no one can call ugly. Matter of fact, one of the most beautiful cities in the world.

It has russians in it, R310. They're the ugliest "white" people on the planet.

Some of them have big hands but they're clearly imports.

"Saint" anything is ugly due to the religious relation.

I would love to go to St Petersburg. I hear the Hermitage is better than the Louvre.

Russia has some lovely cities (St. Petersburg, Yaroslavl, Vladimir...) but for such a huge country it's rather short on beautiful towns. Most of them consist of a few streets of those lifeless neoclassical Stalinist buildings in the centre surrounded by miles and miles of ugly apartment blocks.

I think Russia's greatest feature is its sacred architecure. Its churches and monasteries with all those lovely onion domes are to die for.

Russian architecture is indeed unique and beautiful, but nothing can prepare you for their subway stations. You will legit stop dead in your tracks while the rush hour crowd trips over you. Stunning.

Speaking as a North American child of two Scots, there are many ugly towns in Scotland.

Glasgow usually gets the the worst criticism but for a long time it was the industrial engine of the nation. Edinburgh would always be more picturesque. Glasgow has much more in the way of vintage livable housing. Those old terraced townhouses are quite valuable now.

Russian architecture and style seems incredibly gaudy to me.

There are some really nice early 20th century stone houses in Glasgow. Nicer than Dublin in my opinion. Especially in the suburbs.

Naples. And it's where my great-grandparents were from.

Though to be fair, they were having a bit of a waste management issue when I went there. It's also the only place I've had something stolen, so maybe that plays into my negative associations with it. Amazing food and history though.

Bucharest.

How hot are the guys in Naples?

Trieste has a beautiful setting (a natural amphitheatre at the tip of the Adriatic), but it's very ugly. These buildings and this plaza are all made of ugly concrete.

^ Yes it’s clean and neat and organised but just looks so soulless r322. Especially compared with the much maligned south and Naples.

Whoever thought R322's photo is ugly obvious never set foot in flyover country.

Or taken Amtrak up the east coast, r324. Burnt out apocalyptic scenes straight from DC to NYC.

I'm going to throw in most of the Netherlands. I've been three times and the only descriptors I can really come up with are flat and wet. Even Amsterdam is limited - the charm quickly wears off.

Serbia.

Whoever mentioned Trieste is an idiot - that city is gorgeous! The largest square facing sea in the world, the Miramare castle, the grand canal, 13th century mosaics in the cathedral, historic Austro-Hungarian coffehouses...Those places are all breathtaking.

I know tastes differ (and thank goodness for that) but to mention that same city together with places like Pristina and Charleroi is just ignorant.

R321, the men? Hot up to a certain age. But all ages, well put together.

I didn't find men in Naples particularly attractive (unlike the city, which is beautiful). But I was there during the summer vacation when half the city population leaves for the seaside resorts and the streets in the centre are almost empty so maybe all the hotties were out of town at that time.

R329, the hotter men are in Spain and Portugal.

R330 Yup, I certainly agree with you. Portugal had some of the sexiest men I've ever seen on my trips. Unfortunately they're mostly shrimps and prone to getting hideous tattoos but they're still insanely attractive.

I think southern Italian men are over-rated. The most beautiful Italians are in the north.

I think Spain and Portugal have better looking men than the North, too.

But to be fair, one of the times I visited was when mullets had made an inexplicable return on the heads of young men...

R38 No Rose, He's 2 Deutschers. It's DL Bargain Day.

R325 Trains rarely run through the *best* parts of town, do they? Amtrak rails run on freight rail lines. So you won't see mansions, the very finest parts of the cities or the most beautiful parts of cities. You'll see .. utilitarian freight rails, switching yards and stations.

I'm going to second Frankfurt. I used to go there a couple of times a year for work when I was stationed near Munich. It was ugly. Frankfurt even had ugly bathhouses.

R322's photo is of an ugly piazza?

Are you insane?

Another photo of R322's "ugly" piazza:

Does Charleroi, Belgium look anything like its counterpart in Pennsylvania?

I didn't know PA had its own Charleroi but judging from the pics it looks equally depressing

PA also has Pittsburg which I assume was originally intended to look like its Russian counterpart?

R326 Serbia isn't a city, missy. Perhaps you wanted to say you find Serbian cities ugly, in which case you'd be only half right. Why "half" right? Well, that's because Serbia actually feels like two different countries rolled into one - cities in the flat and ethnically very diverse region of Vojvodina in the north (which used to be part of Hungary in the past) are anything but ugly: Sombor, Novi Sad, Sremski Karlovci, Subotica...are all very pretty. Cities in the rest of the country really are butt ugly but those parts make up for it with beautiful hilly landscapes (a welcome change from the flatness of Vojvodina) and plenty of orthodox monasteries (usually lying in the middle of nowhere) with old Byzantine frescoes preserved.