There is no such thing as Poland!

OP is Mr. Burns and unfortunately not his assistant.

Things were better under the Kaiser, as I recall.

OP is a nazi. Fuck off!!!!!!

Oh god, nobody gives a shit about that shithole part of the world. They should all light themselves on fire and do the rest of the world a favour.

There was no such thing as a unified "Germany" either in 1814, as one can see on the map.

We People in "shithole parts" of the world like middle Europe [!?!] have a right to live our lives in peace too. OP wants Germany back with the borders of 1933 or so.... But Poland is a sovereign state. The same with Russia. Fuck you OP!

Brilliant (complete sarcasm) pick an out dated map from some obscure point in time and declare that it makes any difference today. By that reasoning Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Italy, Albania, Serbia, Croatia, Hungary, Belgium and a handful of other countries also don't exist.

You are a troll OP and not even a very inventive troll.

As a map aficionado, I've always been fascinated by Kaliningrad Oblast, a Russian exclave tucked in between Poland and Lithuania. How does that figure in to OP's situation?

Still no such thing as Poland.

People today have no idea that much of Germany lies under the Polish flag!

We looked after the regions you mention very well, long before they were "countries", r7.

Then beginning in the 19th century thought that getting rid of us Habsburgs would somehow improve their lot. Ha! Look how the 20th century turned out for them.

If my Empire had survived, the whole world would have been spared a lot of grief.

Thank you, R8. The Russians offered Kaliningrad to Germany in about 1990, gratis! Perhaps also to Poland, but it was unwanted. It is full of Russians, so it would be odd for Germany to take it. What do you do with the Russians? I mean, that the Geneva Convention approves of?

Kaliningrad, or Königsberg I should write, is home to a naval port. That should be important to whomever owns it, no? I would think every country would want a port there. I think political reasons makes it a hot potato.

And thank you, Franz. I will respond to you forthwith!

Not sure what new problems 1814 borders would cause - but they might solve some f today's global problems. You'd have to reset the world - which would make some Native Americans pretty happy.

Königsberg was home to Germans for millennia. They were expelled or murdered immediately afer WWII. I didn’t learn this until I was 40 or so. We all know, or should, of the atrocities committed by the Germans during WWII. We should also know of the backlash.

My brother has developed an interest in Poland, but had no idea that the parts he visited were German until just after 1945.

12 responses and still no reference to Polish cock.

Franz, tell me about it!

Wikipedia says “...Kaliningrad, formerly known as Königsberg. It is the only Baltic port in the Russian Federation that remains ice-free in winter.”

Yeltsin must have been drunk when he offered to give this away.

another useless troll thread since it difficult even in the era of trump to think anyone is as willfully ignorant as OP

Or, R17, you could use this as an opportunity to discuss middle-European history and the German/Polish/Russian boarder. You can’t understand today if you don’t know history.

[quote] German/Polish/Russian boarder.

I don't care where he's from, as long as he pays his rent on time.

OP, your map you linked to back up your claim clearly shows "Kingdom of Poland".

OP needs to accept the consequences of World War II for Germany as well as Poland and Europe in general (Stalin was probably the main arbiter of what boundaries went where, even though Lord Curzon's eastern Polish boundary post WW I served as a precedent he revised to his own liking). If you want to bitch about something that needs to be resolved, how about the Turks committing genocide upon the Armenians or Kurds among the many other sins for which the Turks have gotten a free pass. Ask any Greek about Turkey and I'm sure you'll get an earful. Erdogan wants to make the Hagia Sophia into a mosque--that ain't goin down so well even with many non-christian people (perhaps excluding moslems).

Considering the Armenians wrought the Khardassians and the Toronto van killer...

Oh, ok, R21, I yield.

Where does the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Commonwealth of Poland that existed for 200 years prior to 1800 fit into this, OP?

Why stop at 1814 to claim legitimacy of national borders? Why not go back to 1575?

This video is worth seeing just to listen to the narrator’s sexy voice. At 7:54, see the territory Germany ceded to so called “Poland”.

I didn’t know until I went to Berlin that the Berlin Wall ran between the Chancellory building and the adjacent Brandenburg Gate. It separated their parliament building from their national symbol. It was like a big F-Y to Germany from the allies. Until at least 2015, you could still see rows of crappy cinderblock buildings, condemned, in the former East Berlin. Much of the city has been rebuilt, just since reunification.

At 10:17, that famous photo of an East German boarder guard making his escape by jumping over a coil of barbed-wire. Wow!

Why indeed, R25!

There is no such thing as the USA!

R20, if you look closely, you’ll see on the map that the Kingdom of Poland is in personal Union with the Czar. That means it is governed by the Czar, as it’s King, and is not technically a part of Russia. That’s all fine in any event, it’s borders then, are further east than they are today.

The Kingdom of Hanover was once in “personal union” with the British monarch; however, it’s rules were that it would be governed by a male, only. When Victoria became Queen of Britian, Hanover found the next male in the line of succession, and he rose to the throne as a result. It might be that sad sack Uncle from Hanover we see on the Masterpiece show, “Victora”.

The “personal union” business is interesting.

OP, your link at R26 is very interesting, I ended up watching the whole thing. It's a nice mini-history of Germany. But saying the narrator’s voice is "sexy" is QUITE a stretch.

Do you remember where you were when the Berlin Wall came down? I do. I wanted to cry, many times. I looked forward to the news every night because it was so exciting. Were the Commies going to open fire and kill kids and old people? Were the tanks going to roll? Would the Soviets put a stop to it? Were we going to intervene? Was this going to be WWIII? Nein!

It’s amazing there was so little loss of life. It was a miracle, really. So nice, to have rolling good news, and a President who wasn’t blaming everybody else for it.

Picture of Conrad Schumann as he defects to West Berlin, 1961. Sadly, he committed suicide at the age of 56 in 1998.

If you visit Budapest today, you can still see bullet holes in random buildings from their 1956 uprising that the Soviets crushed. I hope the alway leave them there.

Thank you, R30. I believe Germany needs all the support it can get!

[quote]Königsberg was home to Germans for millennia.

R13 I wonder if "A Rainy Day in New York" will play there.

[quote]Do you remember where you were when the Berlin Wall came down? I do. I wanted to cry, many times.

I want to cry now. I just realized I'm the only person still alive with whom I watched this on television.

R18

Many liberals believe that they already know everything, so discussions like this hold little interest for them.

Since they know it all already, why should they ever try to learn anything?

R28

You’re correct- the USA is no longer “united” and splitting into a few dozen smaller countries and city states is our destiny.

R32

We need constant reminders of the evils of socialism and communism. Keeping those bullet holes there is a good way to remind everyone that unlimited government creates unlimited evil.

R35, I was alive and watched it, too! You’re not alone!

The Hungarians had “goulash communism”, R38. It wasn’t unlimited government. They did have an overly powerful military and military alliance with the USSR, that is true.

[quote] It might be that sad sack Uncle from Hanover we see on the Masterpiece show, “Victora”.

It is.

What will be the catalysts r37? Worldwide depression? Will this involve unrest tantamount to civil war in this country? I'm not being facetious and I'm asking this seriously or as serious as one can be about something as fantastic (as in fantasy) as the idea of a breakup of the United States seems now. Is the Trump "regime" a distant early warning? I have sometimes thought that at the very least the United States would split again on North-South lines only it will be based on other issues than slavery.

The US will never split. The North would never allow it. The South knows it needs the subsides. Can you imagine the mess the South would become? Security risk and worse. It would be like sending your 6 year old brother out into the world to make his way.

Königsberg was home to Germans for millennia.

That's actually so not true.

Explain, R44, please.

The current borders of Eastern and Western Europe are artificial entities, the result of almost two thousand years of skirmishes, battles, wars and political agreements, the stronger conquering and subduing the weaker. These borders are again going through a period of change, as the stronger disappear and the weaker are finally allowed to choose how and with whom they want to live. See the FSU, the former Yugoslavia and Spain for details.

Konigsberg/Kaliningrad was founded by the Crusading order "Teutonic Knights" (14th/15th centuries??--I think it was also a member of the Hanseatic League) I think (correct me if I'm wrong) in the land inhabited by the "Old" Prussians who were more related to present day Lithuanians (I think). These Old Prussians became germanized over time, more or less forcibly as the Teutonic Knights and more Germans moved in. Not much is known about the Old Prussian language although I think there is enough of it known for modern linguists to reconstruct the language to the extent that some people have some fluency in it as a kind of "novelty" (I think I read about this in Wikipedia, so, I guess one may have to take it with a grain of salt). Anyway, the Teutonic Knights' presumably militaristic bent fed into the later Prussian militarism one might associate with modern Germany. The allies (Soviet Union, USA and UK) abolished the German state of Prussia in 1947 and East Prussia, of course, was partitioned between Poland and Russia at Stalin's behest.

PS r47 here again--it might be useful to remind those posting here that Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria were all allies of Nazi Germany (also Finland). Whether or not subsequent Soviet occupation/political reconstruction (if you will) was right or wrong, it is still understandable from a Russian point of view considering what Germany did to Russia in World War II. I don't necessarily have any illusions about or sympathy for Germany considering what they set in motion under Hitler's dictatorship, it all came back to bite them hard on the ass in 1945. That said, it is just as unfortunate what the Germans went through during and after World War II, especially refugees fleeing westward from vengeful Russians.

[quote] We need constant reminders of the evils of socialism and communism

We need constant reminders of the evils of democracy and capitalism as well. People seem to forget that Hitler’s Nazi Party was [italics]democratically[/italics] elected into Parliament, as the most popular (majority) party with the highest number of people’s votes (twice even, in successive elections).

The Nazis also arrested (and executed) many members of the Communist and Socialist parties in Germany and other occupied territories. Many anti-Nazi socialists were Jews, so merely having a socialist party membership history could get you imprisoned or killled.

[quote]it is just as unfortunate what the Germans went through

Escaping with their lives was "just as unfortunate" as being butchered and exterminated‽‽‽‽

[quote]it is just as unfortunate what the Germans went through during and after World War II

Yes, those poor Germans, being installed in death camps.

R45, R47 explained it very well. Just want to point out two more things: The city was founded in the 1200s, so we cannot really talk millennia. I know that's a little nit-picky.

The other thing: Germans started rather late to see themselves as one entity, or people. The Holy Roman Empire was always more a "league of nation" than a "United States of Germany." All those little kingdoms and dukedoms in that Empire were sovereign states. Call it a medieval EU if you like. There was a sense that they were all Germans, but that was more seen as a distinction to other foreign people and countries. They had common foreign representation, at least for the most part. But within their own little territory, everybody did their own thing. (Fun fact: They even had their own time zones) The shift came in the mid 1800s. That's when German people and governments really started to see themselves as one entity that should be unified in one strong political entity. Germany in a today's sense was formed eventually in 1871. Before 1871 it is more accurate to speak of the Prussians, Austrians, Bavarians etc.

So when somebody says "the Germans" did this or that in the past, it's hard to pin point certain people. You cannot hold Austrians accountable for Prussian actions, or the Bavarians for something that the Austrians did. And even if you narrow it down to a state, there is no "Prussian people" because each state gained and lost lots of territories within and outside the German borders. So, there is not one Prussian people either. It's difficult, really.

Don’t forget Poland!

r43 The North could always build a wall.

Warsaw had a nice walk around it once. DJT looks to that for inspiration.

Why hasn’t Herr Bratwurst commented?

r50 and r51, many of the German refugees fleeing west DIDN'T escape with their lives and I'm certainly not defending or acting as an apologist for Nazi Germany, but human suffering took place on all sides whetherit was Germanswho suffocated during the firestorm of the bombing of Dresden or whether Jews and others in the concentration camps suffocated in a gas chamber. Which would you rather have been, an inmate at a concentration camp who was liberated or a German woman raped repeatedly by Russians? One could go on and on with who out-suffered who but what does that solve?

R57 suffers from that disease called ignorant parity. One genocide is much like another, killing is killing, dead is dead. When you are ignorant of history, it all blurs together in sameness and irrelevance. Germans enthusiastically supported Hitler and the extermination of the Jews of Europe. Their "suffering" is of their own making. That you look to mitigate it, somehow find parity in German barbarity does indeed make you an apologist.

How nice, r58 that you have the one and only true interpretation and pontification of it all.

R42

The end of the Petrodollar (initiated by Nixon and implemented by KSA & Kissinger) will pose an extraordinary problem for the US- how do you keep “living beyond your means” when your creditors aren’t returning your calls (or buying your Tbills) especially when half of the population is dependent on government transfers- as welfare, or as government employees, or as contractors, or as soldiers- and their paychecks only buy half as much as they did a year before.

Trump is a symptom- the US system is so broken and overextended that ANYONE besides HRC would have been looked to as an improvement (even Bernie) and when the Federal Reserve loses control this time around the likelihood of them flooding the system with MOAR FIAT is 100%...and they will keep printing more and more money until the dollar is worth the cotton paper it is printed on.

Russia, China and Iran (with India, Pakistan, Vietnam, South Africa, etc. already included) are settling oil contracts in gold.

Saudi Arabia just signed contracts with China to sell oil for gold.

How will DC keep Texas in line if they don’t have any money to bribe them with? What happens when “the government” runs out of other people’s money?

R49

You must be marginally retarded, because any intelligent person knows that Nazi means national socialist, which is the opposite of liberal capitalism.

R59 How utterly horrible that in your ignorance of 1,700 years of European Jew hatred and the Holocaust you continue to sympathize with the perpetrators.

Go fuck yourself r62.

One shouldn’t compare tradegies. Bad is bad. There is no badness “ranking” that is meaningful.

That said, I think it important to know history, and the backlash sufferred by the Germans at the hands of their former victims is interesting history that is often neglected. It happens in all the eastern formerly occupied countries, former German territory, and in Germany itself. I assume it happened in Western Europe as well. I recently saw an interesting movie where the Danes used German POWs to clear mines, and weren’t too worried about collateral damage.

Likewise, the anti-Jewish programs in Poland [italic] after [/italic] WWII is also neglected history. You’d think they would have exhausted their hate during the war, but no, it is more complicated than that.

Pogroms, not programs.

Should I date outside my pogrom?

[quote]Likewise, the anti-Jewish programs in Poland after WWII is also neglected history.

European governments, banks and especially museums as well as American museums are still collaborating with the Nazis, refusing to return property stolen from Jews.

From The Independent 23 April 2017

Many countries yet to return Jewish property stolen by Nazis, study claims

Study alleges Poland and Bosnia-Herzegovina have failed to enact any comprehensive legislation covering property taken from Jews during the Holocaust and Communist eras

A "substantial amount" of property confiscated from European Jews by the Nazis during the Holocaust has not been returned, a study claims.

More than 70 years after the end of the Second World War, many states have only partially complied with a law to return or provide compensation for land and businesses confiscated from Jewish communities during the Holocaust.

The Holocaust (Shoah) Immovable Property Restitution Study found several former Communist states in Eastern Europe have not yet fulfilled their obligations under the 2009 Terezin Declaration on Holocaust Era Assets.

The study investigated unresolved issues around private and communal immovable property illegitimately seized from Jewish victims of the Holocaust.

The Terezin Declaration said no state should benefit from heirless property and special funds should instead be allocated to needy Holocaust survivors, but the study found property that became heirless as a result of the Holocaust often reverted to the state and has not been returned.

There are approximately 500,000 Holocaust survivors alive today and up to half are estimated to live in poverty.

It also found both Poland and Bosnia-Herzegovina have failed to enact any comprehensive legislation covering property taken from Jews during the Holocaust and Communist eras.

It said the largest percentage of heirless property was likely to be found in the Baltic States and Poland, where the overwhelming majority of Jews did not survive the Holocaust.

Poland had the largest Jewish population in pre-war Europe, as many as 90 per cent did not survive the Second World War.

"What amounts to the largest theft in history has not been adequately dealt with," the World Jewish Restitution Organization said in a statement.

The property includes both pre-war Jewish private property, now currently in the hands of the state and private individuals, and Jewish religious and communal buildings such as synagogues and social organisations that were never returned to the local Jewish community.

Over six million European Jews were killed by Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany and Nazi collaborators in the deadliest genocide in history.

Gideon Taylor, Chair of Operations at the World Jewish Restitution Organisation, welcomed the report, saying: “This report shines a light on the failure of some countries to address the past and to return that which was taken.

[quote]Should I date outside my pogrom?

Only after you've sold your used Buchenwalds.