Why is Russia so ugly?

The wealthy took all the money from the peasants and built monuments and palaces and left their countrymen to live like third class citizens.

Here's Russians destroying one of their priceless works of art - produced before, of course, Russia became Soviet Russia and chased all the great writers and philosophers and artists out, and their culture changed to prohibit expression - because three Russian assholes got drunk and ripped it with a metal pole

St Petersburg is beautiful

Not with you on that one, OP.

A cultures personality is reflected in its architecture. So a once beautify culture is now a very fugly one.

rows and rows of it.

St. Petersburg is the only place in Russia worth visiting. The rest of it is shit

I went to Moscow and saw, just outside of red square, is a four seasons hotel.

The ugliness of capitalism has replaced the ugliness of Stalinism

Ugly culture for ugly people...

The beautiful buildings are concentrated in specific areas and were mostly all built before Soviet Russia. After that we have Brutalist architecture and general slovenliness.

They are hideous people. Brutalist describes more than just the architecture!

[quote]"I get all my news from MSNBC who tell me who to hate on behalf of their corporate donors, although I look down at Fox news views who do exactly the same thing, I feel smug that my xenophobia is justified. I don't own a passport and have never left the US, I think anyone to the left (or right) of me is a 'Russian troll'"

Russophobia!!!!!

Their food is ugly too.

OP: I've never been to Russia but the pictures I have seen of it are lovely.

R11: Russia has a lot of good looking men.

Whatever you dislike about Russia, you can't say St. Petersburg isn't a unique looking and beautiful.

Because they're ugly dumb drunks.

Moscow

Why is Baltimore so ugly?

OP has never been to Russia. St Petersburg is a stunningly beautiful city. Moscow is clearly the workhorse of the two, but it is a huge and also quite lovely place with some gorgeous buildings. Even inside the Kremlin there are some impressive ones. Its business district boasts a number of postmodern office buildings that wouldn't look out of place anywhere in the world, so architecturally it is no longer stuck in either the Tsarist or Soviet periods. As for chasing away all their talent, of course that happened during the Stalinist era, but the architects of nearly all of the big Tsarist palaces were Italian, and naturally today they are again importing architects and designers as needed.

The suburbs do have a lot of Soviet architecture, as you'd expect since that period lasted nearly 100 years, but Putin is getting rid of the worst of it, which was built during Kruschev's time, and replacing it with high rise condos further out. FYI, the apartments built during Stalin's time were well built, centrally located and relatively spacious and are now quite valuable.

R10, I went to New York recently and saw a Four Seasons hotel practically everywhere. It didn't make New York a less attractive city. Meanwhile, the hotels I stayed in in Russia were much more beautiful, glitzy and spacious than the 5-star I stayed in in Midtown.

This is not an apologia for Russia. Of course there are conditions there very few Westerners would want to have (as indeed there are in DC). But the look, and the energy, of the cities is not one of them.

Russia's problem isn't lack of beauty, it's Putin's shenanigans.

Part of the reason I have no desire to visit. I travel for architecture - seeing the Kremlin and the Hermitage just isn’t worth the hassle of crime and stress and travel time. And for being a horrible dictatorship - they don’t deserve tourism.

The old painted wooden houses are charming. There are beautiful and preserved historic towns just as there are poor, gray, industrial shithole areas. Same can be said for the US, Germany, the UK, etc.

St. Petersburg is awesome

The Golden Ring

It's great, but none of that has been built in modern times. As the OP said. Something was lost, driven out.

I suppose there must be a US equivalent of Boris and Natasha, who spend their time infesting boards like DL with anti-Russian posts? It seems as if I have to block another one every week. They're either talking about how all Russian women are whores; or how the men are all drunks; or, as now, how the architecture is all terrible. Putin is indeed rather horrible but enough already.

r28 I think the point is some sort of counter to the infestation of Russian trolls on DL and in the comment sections of much of the rest of the Internet. It triggers the paid and unpaid Russian trolls who will post things like are found in this thread. That is the point of threads like this. They're essentially honeypots. If you're posting in threads like this defending the Russians and pointing out the beauty of some of their oldworld architecture, you're missing the point entirely, or have the dangerous attitude that Russia is innocuous and the West's "friend".

The US is rather well-known for its horrible behavior. So it would behoove us to clean our own house.

It's interesting to note how many individuals are urgently desirous of another World War, it is in fact a terror that would make many people even wealthier than they already are. And so, well worth an investment in whipping up fervor in the citizenry, be it a war with Russia, Korea, or Iran. Same as it ever was.

r14 Quite brilliant . A well-done assessment.

Actually R29, I see what you're saying and accept it. It probably won't stop me blocking these threads though. I don't really want to have to look at a horrible picture of a decrepit Russian drunk in the gutter every time I scroll through the threads.

And now Muriel should probably delete all three of our messages so that we don't give the game away to the Borises and Natashas!

r30 classic Russian whataboutism. "You can't criticize us because what about your ___"

r31 I block them if the pictures are gross, but I do that for any thread with a bad picture.

They know what we're doing but they can't help themselves. Russian patriotism is very high, for some reason.

R29, whenever I sign my posts a particularly annoying pro-Russia troll appears and starts screaming at me for only saying negative things about Russia. She also hates or pretends to hate Finland with passion and acts like it's the most terrible country in the world. She keeps accusing me of "ethnic targeting" and seems to forget she's written a few essays here listing all things wrong with Finland.

BTW, I just learned today that KGB used to teach their agents whataboutism, and that's apparently the reason Russian trolls so easily start blaming other countries whenever Russia is accused of something.

Why IS Russia so ugly?

r34 it's a classic Russian technique, still in use and taught today, and it works really well which is why they use it so often. Remember Putin is an "ex" KGB agent. The KGB is now the FSB and acts pretty much the same.

[quote]Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument, which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda. When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union during the Cold War, the Soviet response would be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world.

It's also what, oh, everyone does.

r36 it's a logical fallacy, much like your statement. Again, though, it's "practically a national ideology" in Russia:

[quote]The Guardian deemed whataboutism, as used in Russia, "practically a national ideology".[22] Journalist Julia Ioffe wrote that "Anyone who has ever studied the Soviet Union" was aware of the technique, citing the Soviet rejoinder to criticism, And you are lynching Negroes, as a "classic" example of the tactic.[23] Writing for Bloomberg News, Leonid Bershidsky called whataboutism a "Russian tradition",[24] while The New Yorker described the technique as "a strategy of false moral equivalences".[25] Jill Dougherty called whataboutism a "sacred Russian tactic",[26][27] and compared it to the pot calling the kettle black.[28]

R35, I just watched a BBC documentary about Putin. I hadn't realized he was basically running a criminal organization back already when he was the vice mayor of St. Petersburg. He was even caught once and someone in Moscow tried to get him fired saying he should never work for the government again. Unfortunately that didn't happen. The documentary was from 2016 and BBC estimated Putin had stolen $200 billion at that point.

There is something wrong with a country where being an online troll is considered a lucrative career.

OP : Russia is not ugly at all, poor uneducated......Do you think American people, by any chance educated American people, are proud of that kind of statement/question ??????!!!!!!!!

Well you don't need to be sober for that so it's the perfect jo for russians R39.

job*

OP said nothing beautiful had been built since 1910s so people start posting pics of pre-20th century architecture to prove him wrong?

It's an alternately beautiful and horrible country with the architecture of the past century mirroring the lives of its people: it's been grim. Communism didn't work and fwiw, Russian architecture and infrastructure didn't benefit from the absence of capitalism during most of the 20th century. Much as the Russian people want a strong Tsar to lead them to the New Jerusalem, relying on your rulers' whims and resources to provide the built environment always ends in tears. Consider Moscow's Seven Sisters Building's blend of Stalinist, Russian Baroque and Italian styles. They liked 'em so much they sent one to Warsaw whether the Poles wanted it or not. The Amber Room and the Cathedral of the Spilled Blood (and lots more) are masterworks but the Romanovs didn't do much to keep anyone warm at night who didn't already have a nice place to sleep. Beauty was only in the eyes of a very few beholders and most everyone else was a serf, more concerned with survival than uplift or shopping at Faberge.

Even though it's a kleptocracy now, the daily lives of many if not most of the Russian people are materially better today than they were twenty five years ago when the Soviet Union ceased to be. Maybe more visibly than in the US there's still a legacy of the state's failures to provide for their people. It's getting better there but they still have a long way to go.

Weird how you never really see pictures or hear much about their nature areas. It's a huge country. One would assume they have huge, vast forests, rivers, lakes, national parks, etc.

More recent achitecture from Russia:

"With the media spotlight squarely on Vladimir Putin lately, you’ve probably been learning a whole lot about the oft-shirtless megalomaniac. Who knows, it may even be getting you excited in really weird ways. But did you know that during his first term as president, he began construction on a secret palace — to catch a bit of rest away from the 20 or so other residences he has access to — that would eventually end up costing a reported $1 billion? Much of it allegedly (allegedly!) improperly diverted from public funds? Whodathunk?!?"

Russia is beautiful, and many aspects of its varied cultures are wonderful.

It's the hideous history of the country that is ugly, and much recent construction reflects that history.

OP is irresponsible or a "build the traffic" DL troll.

Its beautiful, i love the buildings 😍

Well, you can't fault the old Russian sense of dark humor.

Here's the City of Capitals complex in Moscow.

R45 They do, but again it's an infrastructure failure - some places that weren't despoiled or destroyed (Chernobyl-adjacent, fr'instance) are gorgeous, but there are no easy ways to exploit that beauty - huge distances but no highways, no hotels, no tours, no whitewater rafting, no Branson, no outlet shopping: nada, nothing, nichedo. Belmond can't buy a train to take the swells there so how's everyone else gonna get to the pretty parts?

I'm no fan of their politics or trolling, but I have a bizarre fascination with all things Siberia. All of those miles of forest and tundra. I suppose very few Russians actually travel out that far, though? It seems most of their population is settled along the western portion of the country.

There are some beautiful landscapes in the more eastern parts of the country.

Wow - if I ever needed evidence that Russian internet trolls have infiltrated the US, this thread was it. Scary.

R1, you are wrong. Russian nobility could be brutal, but Russia is an incredibly resource rich country.

R2, Repin was Ukrainian, not Russian, though he lived in the Russian Empire.

Anything built after 1914 is a disaster because the Bolsheviks were mostly poorly educated boors.

I love the weird English some of these trolls use--correct grammar, but truly weird word usage. And they cannot resist defending Mother Russia.

Keep in mind that Russians don't believe in global warming (can't afford to since their kleptocracy is depending on oil.) and there's no real history of environmentalism or valuing nature for its own sake. The government has exploited and trashed a number of otherwise scenic places. And, since there's not much of an environmental movement in Russia, the government can pretty much do what it wants in terms of exploitation of natural resources no matter what it does to the environment. (Hey there, Chernobyl.)

A bunch of Siberia is on permafrost--it makes paved roads extremely difficult and expensive to maintain. Climate change has, of course, made the situation worse. So, no not tons of tourism. There's a great essay by Ian Frazier about driving across Russia--definitely a serious headache.

I think the "whataboutism" says something about why Russians don't fix their own problems. Whataboutism is a means of shirking responsibility. Americans, in general, don't use other countries problems as a means to avoid responsibility--it's actually almost the opposite--i.e. we should do something about guns because in other countries, gun control works.

Russia's a mess--Russians should quit fucking with our elections and fix their own problems--they certainly have enough to keep them occupied, but Russians are wimps.

Agreed with R55. Sad, because they have some truly outstanding wilderness, but the government at least seems too shortsighted to properly appreciate or manage it. They could have a thriving adventure tourism economy based on hiking, mountain biking, trekking, etc. if they were less insular. I guess trolling in less work.

Lack of environmental regulation leads to tragedies like this.

Link preview doesn't work. For those who don't want to click, this is what I meant.

Like anywhere, Russia is both beautiful and ugly. Maybe Russia is just too damn big to govern and has too much corruption.

Russians are evil

I feel like you never hear about any other Russian cities except Moscow and St. Petersburg. Is that their version of NYC and LA? Do rural people resent the big cities getting all of the attention there?

Russians again ?

R61, seems they are not too fond of Muscovites.

Until 1861 when they were freed, there were 23 million serfs out of 63 million Russians, or 37.7% of the population. (There were 3.9 million slaves in Americain 1860, out of a total population of 31 million, or 13% for comparison.)

The country was a feudal society in 1860. It advanced in 100 years into the modern era, something the West did over 500 years. In the process, sone shortcuts were made, such as with mass produced cinderblock housing for the masses.

^^Which they achieved by killing or working to death millions and millions of people.

OP I wouldn't speak too loudly if I were you especially if you are American, as I assume you are as I am, because American cities, at least some of them could win prizes for being ugly for a variety of reasons I won't go into here. Suffice it to say, your question is a little like the pot calling the kettle black. American cities are generally a characterless montage of glass and steel skyscrapers uninterestingly modern and all looking the same, sort of like the song "Little Boxes" that Pete Seeger made famous in the early sixties--only these are big boxes. There are parts of the midwest where the towns, with the faux Italianate storefronts so popular from the 1890s, look like bombed out ruins (no thanks in part to Walmart and other big box stores). I could name off numerous American towns as dreary as any in eastern Europe or western for that matter. Americans aren't known for saving anything historic, rather, they are torn down or left to sit and rot until they are tumbling down--old movie theaters are just one example (see Cinema Treasures website). Pittsburgh tore down a beautiful example of architecture called Syria Mosque, an insanely stupid move within the past 25 or 30 years among numerous that have been needlessly torn down in Pittsburgh as just one example. People don't want to attend church, if they do, in an old classically beautiful church, they would rather squat down with thousands of other sheeple in big box churches with no character at all.

Russia is so ugly because it's a Third World shit hole filled with illiterate degenerates, thanks to the Russian Revolution and pogroms, both which succeeded in driving out, killing or subjugating its best and brightest members of society. You're not going to get a lot of beauty from a society like that.

It's a bit of a shame that Russia is governed by corrupt politicians and by the mob. There are some of the most amazing landscapes to be found in rural Russia.

Isn't most of Siberia uninhabitable swamp? I know they have world's largest swamp.

Red Square is interesting. We also went to some small places in Siberia that had some charm. I have heard St. Petersburg has some beautiful sites. I have noticed there doesn't seem to be much of a middle class there, either wealthy or poor.

R55, is this the article you were talking about? Fascinating read.

R66--Whataboutism right on schedule.

By the way, "Little Boxes" was Malvina Reynolds, not Pete Seeger. Never liked the song--pretty condescending. It was fashionable to sneer at the suburbs, but a lot of people lived in them quite happily and took pride in their homes.

R71, yep that's the one--it's in two parts and long in the way only the New Yorker can be, but it's a great piece. Lots of garbage in seemingly remote areas--no pack in and pack out.

If we must be infested by Russian trolls, maybe we can teach them elementary housekeeping when outdoors. Don't be litterbugs, Russkies.

I adopted from a small town in Siberia and when I flew in most people knew what I was there for because it is not a tourist area. The hotel was crap but they had a deal with our adoption agency and all the families who adopted stayed there. The orphanage was full of children, it makes me sad that they closed adoptions to the U.S. because the Russians aren't adopting those children. I will say the people I dealt with, especially in Siberia were kind. I know Putin is a snake but I look at most of the Russian people like myself, I don't want Trump for my President either.

Kamchatka is amazingly beautiful.

P.S. I am a lesbian, I adopted as a single mother in case anybody asks what I am doing on a gay message board.

The guy who ran the fun "Real Russia" blog, which made his little city Ufa in Bashkortostan in the Ural foothills seem livable, has not aged well, and has moved to St. Petersburg Sergey Baklokov.

Looks like Russia wants a little of that Chernobyl glow in the Urals.

Seriously, trollskies, go clean up your country.

Just like America, they don't want to pay for anything nice...they are just a bunch of Republicans.

Correction r55, they're drunk wimps.

Some of the roads in Siberia look a bit... challenging.

r64 also "something that took the West over 500 years" - you realize that the technology that enabled the West to do so was developed during that time, correct? And that Russia just used that? Any country could "advance to modern" in that time if they're using modern technology but (for whatever reason) happened to be a backwards feudal society while everyone else was progressing around them. What a truly stupid, Russian comparison.

R81, I think R64 was making the point that Russia had to catch up with the modern world so quickly that it didn't have time to build anything nice since the 1860s. But is that a valid excuse? Japan went from feudal, isolated country to modern Western power in the same time frame as Russia and doesn't look like a shit hole. Maybe because Japan wasn't stupid and purged its country of its best and brightest when it transitioned into the 20th century, like Russia did.

Let Russia be a cautionary tale, everyone. This is what happens to a former world class country that allows the unwashed masses to take power and purges its elites. This country used to produce the likes of Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Tchaikovsky and Shishkin. Now it produces Krokodil, troll armies and bath lotions to OD on. What an embarrassment. No wonder Russians have become professional trolls. They're a miserable, bitter, degenerate people who want the world to be as ugly, miserable and degenerate as they are to feel better. They want to bring the entire world down with them as they drown and drug themselves into oblivion. Don't let them. Let posters know what's up about this backwards, hillbilly, degenerate country filled with bums and druggies with their flesh falling off the bone.

R66, even American buildings in ruins looks 100x better than the brand new crap Russians threw up (both figuratively and literally) throughout the 20th century. Russia set such a low bar in terms of architecture that any ugly, drab, Brutalist apartment building in the rest of the world is referred to as "Soviet bloc."

[quote] R65: ^^Which they achieved by killing or working to death millions and millions of people

I [italic] wrote [/italic] there were shortcuts taken, R65! Jeeze Louise!

You're calling Russian social housing ugly.... when compared to what exactly?

Oh that's right America has absolutely no social safety net, no social housing, you go under you end up on the street.

inb4 someone post a picture of a NY/Chicago project as if that disproves what I said.

Undoubtedly there are beautiful parts to Russia - there are even shopping malls with department stores! Who knew? But when I think of Russia I think of the majority of people as depressed, forlorn people. Families crowded in 3 room apartments with horrid wallpaper from the 1930's and the stench of cabbage. Am I wrong? Good grief, I hope so.

[quote] R82: But is that a valid excuse? Japan went from feudal, isolated country to modern Western power in the same time frame as Russia and doesn't look like a shit hole.

Very good point, though Japan is still a feudal society that many Westerners would not feel comfortable in.

I once heard that there were 4 kinds of economies: Capitalist, Communist, Japan, and Argentina. Said tongue in cheek, it was the 1980s and Japan could do no wrong and Argentinian no right.

Other examples are Berlin and Western Germany since WWII.

Perhaps I add to R64:

...including/followed by 70 years of the harshest of Communist dictatorships, to explain why it’s such a shit hole. I think that explains it. It’s not an excuse, just an explanation.

Ignore the russian troll @ r85

I don’t want to spend a lot of time composing this post so please be generous with your interpretation of the following:

I’ve read that Russia has no tradition of philanthropy. If it ever did, it was probably beaten out of it, during the communist years, when so much was forcibly taken from the people by the government.

The US has a tradition of Christian philanthropy that has served it well. During the Gilded Age, the Rockefellers and other über-wealthy people competed with each other to donate their fortunes to libraries, universities, concert halls, and similar. Even today, Buffet, Gates, Zuckerberg, et. al. are doing so.

I haven’t heard of Putin, Medvedev, or Oligarchs founding medical centers or such in Russia. I think this is an important cultural differrence.

Good point

Good point, r89. Plus add in Jewish philanthropy, ditto, for museums, medical, cultural, educational institutions, once US Jews got the gelt to give.

[quote]I haven’t heard of Putin, Medvedev, or Oligarchs founding medical centers or such in Russia. I think this is an important cultural differrence.

Apparently they actually stole from the money that supposedly went into funding healthcare. From the Thrillist article about Putin's $1B palace at R46:

"It all came to light a couple years ago when a former associate of Putin's bravely blew the whistle on the corrupt scheme. In an open letter to the president at the time, Dmitry Medvedev, he detailed the various ways it was strategically covered up — with money disguised as funds for various industrial projects and to improve the country’s healthcare infrastructure."

"We're a miserable, bitter, degenerate people who want the world to be as ugly, miserable and degenerate as we are to feel better. We want to bring the entire world down with us as we war and drug themselves into oblivion. . we're a backwards, hillbilly, degenerate country filled with bums and druggies with their flesh falling off the bone.".. Donald J. Trump inaugural address

Good point r89 but we are witnessing here in the US a lot of open corruption. We see it with Trump. We know they have wanted to take the money from Social Security. The tax cuts for the wealthy. The increase in taxes on everyone else. Inflated military budget which grows every new budget. The slashing of funds for many public programs, schools, all to funnel more money toward the already mega wealthy Oligarchs.

Our circumstance is not as bad as Russia yet but if we keep going the path set at this moment we will continue to head in that direction. Most people are not taking seriously enough what is going down now though.

Why do we have to shit on the Russian people? I'm not supporting the hackers. I'm not supporting Putin. But I have no beef with the regular Russian person. I hope life can get better for them they way I hope our country can find a way out of the destructive path that has been set in motion. They do not have much farther they can fall. And because life has been hard for them they will most probably survive anything put in front of them.

But Americans are soft. We melt down over silly things. 1st world problems some people call them. What do you think will happen when America starts really looking more like Russia or China than what we have come to know as our "free" country? (I know it already has but it's still not obvious to many) I think a whole lot of people are going to lose their shit because they are spoiled and don't know how to survive except to destroy everyone else around them.

R71, thanks for that link. I was left wanting to read more, so I'm going to order the book on Amazon. Siberia is clearly the most interesting thing about Russia these days.

Yeah, the Russian wilderness of the far eastern part of the country is gorgeous. Unfortunately, they don't know how to capitalize on all of that land or how to take care of it. Can you imagine what other countries could do with all of that untapped potential?

R89, there was a lot of philanthropy before the Revolution.

R11 The Russian people have been through so much....they are tough and stoic...I do hate the Ukrainians...different peeps altogether

Yeah, Ukrainians have been through nothing. 🙄🙄🙄

Isn’t Siberia where a lot of gemstone mining takes place?

r99 ^ found another Russian troll.

[quote]Oh that's right America has absolutely no social safety net, no social housing, you go under you end up on the street.

You're so right. Russia is a paradise compared to America and its lack of safety nets and housing....I'm so jealous!

[quote]Why do we have to shit on the Russian people? I'm not supporting the hackers. I'm not supporting Putin. But I have no beef with the regular Russian person.

They've done more than just hack. They've spread disinformation of the likes never seen before since the Nazis and given new life to white nationalist and other extremist organizations throughout the United States and the world when they were were waning. I've been monitoring their antics across multiple forums and news sites for the past few years and it's disgusting the lengths they've gone to sow division and spread lies and misinformation, from their bullshit "paid by George Soros" crap and throwing up a bunch of fake news websites and YouTube channels all over the place to posing as various factions on all sides of the political spectrum saying outrageous things to get everyone fighting each other.

They were also the ones behind massive disinfo campaigns about past American achievements, such as posting over and over again that "America couldn't have landed on the moon because there was no such technology at the time." Now they've sunk to even lower depths, pretending to be Americans citing factually wrong information about Constitutional law and history in an attempt to further confuse Americans about their rights.

So I have no problem shitting on Russians and I hope the trolls reading my words know and understand that there are those of us that see through you, think you're disgusting and beneath contempt. You've all been having a nice laugh at everyone's expense thinking you're going to come up smelling like a rose and sitting pretty. But more and more people are on to you, and yes, we will be bad mouthing you and exposing you for the disgusting, degenerate, low class nation that you are.

P.S. Russian women are the biggest gold digging whores in the entire world. That's how low class Russians are. Only in a degenerate country like Russia would there be classes teaching women how to whore themselves.

They never adopted democracy and the rule of law, they never seriously eradicated mobster culture, corruption and bribery.

Love the way our trollskies cannot resist coming out.

R99 is an obvious one--like Americans actually care to distinguish between the personality traits of Ukrainians and Russians.

R95 is also iffy--Americans are "soft" is that what you guys tell yourselves? At least when our government gets co-opted, we get out and march and organize and protest. At least some of our judiciary and our state governments stand up to this attempted coup. Our military and our government agencies push back. Putin exists in all his greedy corruption because Russians use cynicism and vodka as excuses to not do anything.

Very few Russians now living have "been through so much"--they weren't around for Stalin's purges or WWII. The vast majority of their current misery is self-inflicted.

R85, "Absolutely no safety net"--no. Social Security, food stamps, disability, ACA, food banks--all part of the safety net. You can argue (and I would) that the safety net is inadequate and under threat from the GOP, but it exists. There's even public housing, though the big projects were found to not work well, so are no longer built.

Some of it's quite attractive--main issue is that there's not enough of it in the expensive states like California.

They did have a rule of law under the Czars. But not since.

R107

That "rule of law" included pogroms.

John D. Rockefeller told his children to “make as much money, as fast as you can; then give it away, as fast as you can.” He was upset at one point because his daughter wasn’t giving her trust money away fast enough.

He was a ruthless businessman, and didn’t mind ruining other businessmen, but he was a devoutly religious man who taught Sunday school, and occasionally acted as his churches janitor.

W&w R106

It’s not just that they’re internet trolls. They are very gleeful and nasty about it.

[quote]"Absolutely no safety net"--no.

Compared to the rest of the developed world yes it's basically non existent, and compared to the social safety net offered by the Soviet Union (who built the social housing we're discussing) it's truly pathetic, just enough to keep corpses piling up in the streets.

And are you really offering 'food stamps' as an example of American social security? I couldn't believe a concept as undignified and ostracising as food stamps being a thing in a western country, benefits should be a cash payment paid to the claimant so they can live like anyone else while on assistance.

The way America treats it's poor reflects on America culture as a whole, cruel, miserly and without generosity or compassion. Would you honestly rather be poor in capitalist America than be poor in the USSR?

R108, there were injustices in other countries with a rule of law as well. Your post is non sequiter.

[quote] Would you honestly rather be poor in capitalist America than be poor in the USSR?

One million fucking times yes, R112. Which is why you see so many Ex-Soviet refugees here in the US.

How many Americans have ever fled to the USSR or Russia? Ever?

r114 seriously?... well ok then, we must have very different views about what makes a comfortable, dignified life.

Soviet citizens with their guaranteed home, job, education as far as you can achieve, universal healthcare, strict rules on working hours and plenty of vacation time.

Or American were you can work yourself to death with nothing to show for it or die in the gutter (and that's just if you're lucky enough to be white).

Every ex-Soviet refugee in the US would beg to differ with you, R115.

r104 what does any of that have to do with the average Russian person. Look, I don't want to be blamed for the shit our country does to other countries. You want the blame for invading Iraq or how we've aided in the destabilization of other countries. Propped up brutal dictators? I don't.

You sure that the Russians who are spreading disinformation aren't connected to our own IC. You know we have our own operatives in Russia that our IC collects information from and that works for our government. They are called spies. If the sole responsibility for what you stated does belong to Russians alone then we are fucked because our IC sucks. It would be the second time that we know of where they massively failed the American people. First time being 911.

r106 are you sure we are still allowed to protest?

Yes, R118. I protested just last week without a hitch.

The only reason St. Petersburg is beautiful is because Peter the Great used Western architects and had it built mostly from scratch.

Russia is ugly because her people are ugly from the soul out.

To the Russia haters on here, did you hate Russia a few years ago? As in did you hate them before the media started to tell you to?

Always noticed that Americans didn't seem to be prejudiced toward Muslims like they are now in the 90s and then in the 00s the became public enemy number 1. Now it's Russias turn, probably China's too.

I don’t hate most Russian people, R122. I do hate their homophobic government and online trolls though.

R115, you are wrong in so many levels. It is obvious you never lived in the USSR.

R122, there was always animosity about Russia, China and Islam. Obviously both don't subscribe to western ideologies of democracy and human rights. This wasn't the case 50 years ago and it isn't now.

These days all are actively trying to destroy the west and western alliances.

Classic Russian whataboutism. China! Islam!

To r115-guaranteed home -In the 1970’s in Leningrad, there was an area known as Little Saigon, where homeless children congregated. They were usually tossed out of their homes by drunkard parent(s). Men seeking to exploit them showed up nightly.

Yes, you could get an apartment, but tens of thousands lived in dorms, waiting up to 20 years for that apartment. Millions more lived in communal apartments, sharing bathrooms or outhouses in cities and kitchens.

Education-Yes, improves from Tsarist times (Lenin used the American educational system as his blueprint) but higher education was tightly controlled by the party. Not anyone could study. Nepotism was the rule rather than the exception.

Guaranteed work-again only if you were part of the working class. Peasants didn’t even have passports until the 1970’s, meaning they were forced to live in their villages, working on communes. Young men often escaped this by joining the military after their compulsory service.

One month vacation but strict rules on when you could take those vacations.

You could not move to most cities, which were closed, unless you obtained a residency permit, which was difficult to obtain.

Healthcare was free but substandard. Some things worked well though, such as vaccinations.

Consumer goods were difficult to get. You would often stand in line for hours. Same with some foods. When I was there in 1990, no shampoo, toothpaste, or cigarettes anywhere in a huge city. Earlier in the year, it was soap.

Finally, no right to emigrate unless you were Jewish.

R115, Poverty is relative. Poor people in the U.S. have hot and cold running water, heat, televisions and access to a variety of food. Their air is cleaner and many of them have cars. Education is free through high school and aid is available for poor kids who want to go further.

Black women have achieved parity with white women across the board as far income goes. Asian-Americans, of course, do better, while Latinos are showing steady progress. While our safety net could be better and I'm concerned about the concentration of wealth into the hands of the 1 percent, the United States has low unemployment and opportunities for people who are willing to work hard.

Russia, meanwhile, is a stagnant dump with a deeply corrupt government. Its birthrate has plummeted and alcoholism is so severe that a quarter of all Russian men die before 55 because of it and the average lifespan for men is a measly 64. (Average lifespan for American men is 76.)

The Russian economy, meanwhile, tanked after the break-up of the USSR and isn't even in the top 10. It has the same issue with inequality of wealth as does the U.S., but there's a lot less wealth to spread around, so, yes, it's way crappier to be poor in the frozen wasteland of Russia than in the temperate U.S.

Not only is the Russian economy smaller than California's; it's smaller than Texas'. The GDP per capita in Texas is $58,000; in Russia it's less than $9,000--i.e. Russians are poor. Third-world poor.

And, yeah, no one's even trying to emigrate there, unless you count Edward Snowden.

To all the butthurt Russians on here crying about being discriminated against:

Go screw yourselves.

You have promoted some of the nastiest and most divisive rhetoric possible. And now you are appalled that people dare to point out your own flaws as a nation? You deserve nothing less than to be reminded of how much of an abject failure your country is each and every single day.

Russia has alcoholism and the US has opioid addictions. One is better hidden but it’s six of one, half a dozen of another.

[quote]To the Russia haters on here, did you hate Russia a few years ago? As in did you hate them before the media started to tell you to? Always noticed that Americans didn't seem to be prejudiced toward Muslims like they are now in the 90s and then in the 00s the became public enemy number 1. Now it's Russias turn, probably China's too.

Are you 15? You act like the Cold War never happened and the Soviet Union wasn't doing for almost a century what Russia's doing now. People know exactly what Russians are capable of. And since you're not a 15 year old bleeding heart idealist but a Russian troll you know it perfectly well yourself.

r129 thinks the "RUSSIANS!!!" are at his door

Triggered Russian trolls, they are really upset at someone pointing out how gross they are.

Very sad.

R133, a gay website is absolutely the most natural place for posters to be passionately defending Russia, like R132.

Who are the trolls? I’m not Russian and criticize the Bolshevik excesses. I agree 100% with r82. But reality is just that. They self medicate with alcohol, Americans with drugs.

[quote] Russia has alcoholism and the US has opioid addictions.

That might be true, but a 12 year life expectancy gap for the Russians vs. the opioid-addicted Americans should be very concerning to the Russians.

R136 because they're just ways to distract people from the actual thread topic. It's been mentioned a bunch of times in this thread. It's a way to derail the conversation and put people on the defensive. And it's a way to not have to argue the details of how the Russians are destroying themselves and their country. You don't see contributions to humanity the way Tchaikovsky or Nietzsche did anymore from them, just aggression and mindgames.

If they focused as much attention on fixing their own country as they do on destroying the rest of the world, they would probably be much better off. It's easiest, though, for their kleptocrats to steal from them if they are distracted by some big "enemy" they can blame everything on, instead of their own actions. And Russia is the culmination of "fake news" where citizens don't believe anything they read unless it reinforces some preexisting bias.

That's what the Republicans want to do in the US so they can steal from the rest of us easier. They look at the Russian kleptocrats and are envious because they can't steal as easily from the American people as the Russian kleptocrats do from the Russian people. But the Russians also let them do it.

Actually they have focused on fixing their country, with the first thing being building a sense of nation.

What they have not addressed is their massive corruption, partly because the elites are the most corrupt.

Russians have such an enormous country. Why are they focused on bullying tiny countries like Ukraine and Georgia and trying to usurp what little those countries have?

R139 actually they have been focused on dragging down the rest of the world instead. And the nationalism is just a way for Putin to establish that "us vs them" distracting narrative I mentioned. If they weren't meddling so much and doing shit like poisoning people and Georgia and Ukraine they wouldn't have sanctions against them and their country would be better off.

When they "fix" their country by building new things, they are primarily a backdoor way to reward their oligarchs. Here's a news article from today:

[quote]Their construction, at a cumulative cost estimated at $11 billion along with related infrastructure, illustrates how sports, as with the oil and mining businesses, has become integral to how the Kremlin and Russia’s ultra-wealthy financiers, known as the oligarchs, do business together.

I stopped posting on DL for a good few months because I got so sick of the bigoted "RUSSIA!!!" shit.

It's honestly been making me hate Americans, that you the supposed liberal ones are so bitterly hateful, so blindly nationalistic, and so childishly gullible to fall for this conspiracy lie from the wing of the Democrat party owned by big business and is fighting to keep it that way.

And it's so surreal to see nationalist gay Americans, the majority of America until very recently hates you and would deny you basic human rights, a sizeable portion of America still does and here you are puffing your chests out like some flag thumping hillbilly.

I'm no fan of Putin's regime or China's, but there needs to be at least someone standing up to American hegemony. I would much rather it be the EU nations doing it, leaving NATO, closing down US bases they use to harass and bully the world, ending the dictation of foreign policy from Washington. But sadly none of them, certainly not my country the UK, seem interested in stopping this madness.

and when I say American hegemony I mean the banking and defence business that own both parties lock, stock and barrel. Not the American people, you seem to have a hard time grasping these concepts as evidenced by nasty threads like this.

R142 = Triggered Russian immigrant

Russia also contributed to Brexit, champ. But you knew that. Enjoy the years more of austerity!

Russians don't have just a major problem with alcoholism, they also have a big drug problem as well--heroin, bath salts and krokodil. So, no, it's not a case of Russians have alcohol and Americans have opioids. Russians have both, they're a fucked people in a fucked-up country.

And, yeah, at one point, I might have felt sorry for them--but they fucked with our elections and want to drag us down to their level--so screw it.

R142, Oh give it a rest--we get to be pissed off when a Russian puppet's been stuck in the White House, we get to dislike the people who did it. And any holier-than-thou act from a Brit makes me laugh--like you guys didn't start all this with your empire and continue it with the financial games played in London. Though you've done a major number on yourself with Brexit--how's it feel to have a smaller economy than California?

r143 I don't really care about Brexit one way or the other, I'm a card carrying socialist, the EU serves big business not working class people.

Austerity is caused by the Conservative party, you know the party that your precious Democrats are well to the right of.

Why are the Hiltons so ugly? From DC to Beverly Hills, they all look like personality-free communist housing.

r144 Always get these kind of replies from Americans. It's like arguing with a child 'my dads bigger than your dad' the most provincial fucking people on earth.

[quote]a Russian puppet's been stuck in the White House

Well show the world some recites then, prove it. Until then shut the fuck up.

Oh I'm sure it's coming any day now 'Mueller will save us all' blah balh you've been saying this for nearly two years now.

Brexit is destroying your economy--the one working-class people rely on for jobs.

And, no, the Tories aren't well to the left of the Democrats. Silly comment (and, yes, I've lived in your country.)

The evidence that Russia interfered with the election is ample and documented. You *could* read up on it, but if you want a hissy fit, have a hissy fit.

If the British Conservative Party ran in elections in the US they'd be denounced as 'commies' and all kinds.

You really think Hilary voters would vote for a party that (on paper at least) backs a nationalised (socialised) national healthcare run and owned by the state? They'd run a mile, and that's before we get to what republican voters would make of them

If the Dems ran in the UK they'd slot in between the right side of the Conservatives and UKIP.

Careful, the "Brit" is being successful in his Whataboutism attempt. Best to ignore!

Go away, Milo. You have no power here. Be gone before someone drops a house on you.

[quote]Why do we have to shit on the Russian people?

Because they're terrible fucking people. Next stupid question?

And why do we have to have threads like this? Because the Russian trolls can't help but respond, which makes weeding them out much simpler.

[quote]And why do we have to have threads like this? Because the Russian trolls can't help but respond, which makes weeding them out much simpler.

+100! All these assholes have to do is walk away. Walk away, and the threads will stop. But no, they just can't help themselves, LOL! It is to laugh!

From a European's perspective, watching Americans argue about another country being a shit hole with shity people is hilarious.

Especially curious is the idea that Russia is somehow super homophobic compared to..... America.... noted bastion of progress and enlightenment.. fucking hell

[quote]It's honestly been making me hate Americans, that you the supposed liberal ones are so bitterly hateful, so blindly nationalistic, and so childishly gullible to fall for this conspiracy lie from the wing of the Democrat party owned by big business and is fighting to keep it that way.

You already hated us, Boris. That's why you're getting paid by the hour to post across multiple sites nonstop for the past couple of years.

[quote]Because they're terrible fucking people. Next stupid question?

"These people they're sending, they're murderers, they're rapists, and some I assume are good people"

[quote]hat's why you're getting paid by the hour

I wish

they eat shit

[quote]From a European's perspective, watching Americans argue about another country being a shit hole with shity people is hilarious.

Awww, is this the part where I, the American, start hating on Europeans, Boris? So I get distracted, start attacking Europeans, and stop hating on you filthy Russian degenerates?

Close, but no cigar, Krokodil huffer!

Most of the threads on DL about Russians read like a thread about Mexicans on a Trump forum.

I assume most of the knuckle draggers posting this shit are just trailer trash who happen to be gay so couldn't vote GOP,

It's quite obvious these "hurr durr the russians!!" cunts have probably never left their state much less been to another country.

Not that that excuses the dems/liberal outlets from leading them along like the GOP have done with the deplorables. Let's hope it doesn't come back and bite them like the tea party did the republicans.

r160 nope, bona fide eurosnob here I'm afraid. I think the US is a backwards 3rd world far right shit hole, it's got nothing to crow about over Russia or anyone else.

Have a nice day

Comrade R162 you realize you're on an American website, right? No borscht for you!

[quote]Especially curious is the idea that Russia is somehow super homophobic compared to..... America.... noted bastion of progress and enlightenment.. fucking hell

You do realize people here read gay news? Russia IS homophobic.

Just the pee stained hotel beds alone...

R112: Are you Enby Nik from the handfasting thread?

I love the Brits here pissing on the US about the failures of the social safety net.

Yeah. I'm sure the Brits have a Very Vested Interest in defending Russia right now.

r168 We do! Russia ees grat!

Obviously most of the EU has a stronger democracy and stronger anti corruption laws compared to the US, but saying the US and Russia are on the same level in terms of inequality, gay and women's rights, rule of law, is absolutely ridiculous.

The whataboutism is pretty nuts right now. The big difference is, of course, that Americans have a strong tradition of pushing openly for change--good and bad.

And, yeah, I have to wonder about the "Brit" who came here--I have an old friend who really is British and votes Labour--she's convinced that Britain's in worse shape than the U.S. because we have Mueller and might actually get rid of Trump. I'm less sanguine about it--but I suspect her views are closer to how most British leftists feel.

I suppose it could be a truly dumb Brit--i.e. one who doesn't know that Hillary Clinton tried to push through national health care when Bill was president.

Their terrible predicament almost makes you feel for the Russians. Almost... until you realize that there are somehow other people in more terrible situations in their country, and they somehow manage to be less villainous about it all.

Yep. Also countries that were in far worse shape that have managed to not turn into kleptocracies--including several that were behind the iron curtain.

Russians seem to have no sense of how to take responsibility and improve their situation. They literally couldn't handle self-government--Putin's just the old Soviet Union but with more personal greed and a Russian cross. And, unlike Trump, he's actually popular.

[quote]Especially curious is the idea that Russia is somehow super homophobic compared to..... America.... noted bastion of progress and enlightenment.. fucking hell

Poor Oleg. Can't get traction on anything else so he tries to persuade American gays that the US treat gays just like Russia.

So how was the St. Petersburg Pride Parade this year, Oleg? Bet it was a blast.

*snort*

R174

Do you think they learn English by listening to the BBC? Someone (maybe you) says it above: they get the grammar OK but can't quite get the idioms right.

"Especially curious"??? "Noted bastion"??? "Fucking hell"??? WTF? Even (maybe especially) a twitty American English major wouldn't say that.

Of course anybody can be anybody on the internet, which is precisely why trolls are so effective.

Anybody trying to equate the US and Russia at this point is getting paid by somebody to do so. Full stop.

I don’t think anyone said Russia has a rule of law, r170. But they did have one in Tsarist times.

[quote]Well show the world some recites then, prove it. Until then shut the fuck up.

Aha, got it. You're dumber than a tree stump.

An enormous number of receipts (that's the word we use in English) popping up in the press so far. And many more to come this summer.

r72 I am aware that Malvina Reynolds wrote Little Boxes, BUT, PETE SEEGER made it a hit, so put that in your pipe and smoke it. And what the hell is "whataboutism"?

And what the hell is "whataboutism"?

See R35, the one with the fabulous post-Stalinist graphic

[quote]Russians have such an enormous country. Why are they focused on bullying tiny countries like Ukraine

Ukraine is a strong contender for EU and NATO membership, same with Georgia. Putin can't get over the fact that former Soviet countries want to align with the west.

[quote]I stopped posting on DL for a good few months because I got so sick of the bigoted "RUSSIA!!!" shit.

Oh honey, how can we miss you if you won't go the fuck away?

R181, a strong majority of Ukrainians did not support NATO membership at any time since 1991, until its invasion by Russia.

The EU will never admit Ukraine.

True R183, Ukrainians changed their opinion on NATO membership after Putin annexed Crimea.

Regarding EU membership, that's a long way away but not impossible.

The younger generations tend to be more pro western.

Ukrainians have believed they are in the verge of EU membership for 25 years.

Until they get rid of their oligarchs and reverse corruption, there is no chance of EU membership.

Here's Russia killing off members of the opposition, as they do. This was a hit on a journalist:

Ukraine will never get NATO membership because an application would spur a Russian invasion. They would need to field an army, first. One that could counter Russian pressure, and an effort to do so would also prompt a Russian invasion. They have to wait to do so in the future at a point when Russia is preoccupied with something bigger.

Also, NATO wouldn’t admit a state that would virtually guarantee a clash with Russia. It did so with the Baltic states, but that was at a time when Russia was weak and preoccupied with something bigger.

The same kind of thing applies with respect to EU membership, I think.

After reading all the posts coming from trolls claiming to be British I'm starting to wonder if that angry British right winger cunt who posted tons of stuff over the years was Russian as well.

Followup on r186 - fakeout! He was trying to root out the assassins Russia sent after him. Hope it worked.

[quote]Anybody trying to equate the US and Russia at this point is getting paid by somebody to do so. Full stop.

Or they could live in western Europe and view them as almost equally shitty.

Difference is I'm not scared of Russia nor do they affect my daily life and national politics, like the US does

R190:

It's fascinating seeing Americans discuss the Ukrainian invasion, and their version of why they think happened. I've discussed this with friends, and one of the biggest indicators of the anti Russian propaganda campaign that has been building over the last few years in the US media, is the complete blackout of mentioning the far right coup that occurred right before the invasion.

I've tried talking to Americans in work, and when you mention the coup, or the coalition government with actual neo-nazis serving in government position, they look at me like I've got two heads. It was and never is mentioned in the US press. From the American public's perspective the Russian just invaded the Ukraine completely out of the blue. Russians as evil aggressors is obviously a big part of the propaganda. (As evidenced by threads like this from probably otherwise educated non bigoted people)

In the Ukrainian elections the majority voted against the right, who wanted closer ties to the EU and America.

The right then with the help of far right neo-nazis, the right stages a coup and overthrows the elected government and installs themselves in power. (no doubt with clandestine help from the CIA/MI6)

Russia then invades and annexes the Crimea, an area prominently inhabited by Russian speaking ethnic Russians, who the far right hates and openly talks about ethnicly cleansing. (ans who have form in this...)

You talk to Americans and these steps before the invasion are completely unknown to them, like they were censored by the US media as they tried to push a 'Putin mad tyrant' narrative. (he is a bit mind, but not for this)

Liverpool Football Club played the UCL final in Kiev last week and warnings were sent out to fans travelling to the game, warning of the neo nazi hooligan threat of violence. With many nazis given high up positions in government after the coup the head of Kiev's police is now an out and proud neo nazi member FFS.

r192 shows up to explain away Russian aggression with a gaslighting story. Thanks for telling us what REALLY happened! I'm sure you have multiple variations that you can whip out for different occasions.

All those things happened in the run up to the invasion, no one denies it. What is up for discussion is whether you think that is grounds for an armed invasion of another country.

What I'm more interested in is why the corporate media in America intentionally ignores these details. The same corporations that heavily donate to bot political parties in the US and have a vested interested in stoking tensions between the US and Russia.

r194 then I suggest you investigate your story since you seem Very Concerned! Meanwhile, Russia is still hideous and is invading other countries and is spreading their infection everywhere. I'm sure lots of other things are concerning as well and very distracting, but this thread is specifically about Russia. Your tactics aren't going to work here.

OK well when the next proxy war between the US and Russia erupts, probably in Syria, I hope you will be the first to volunteer to go over there. Go get yourself maimed or worse so Raytheon can make another trillion dollars.

Just try and leave us in the rest of the world out of it for a change.

[quote]America is still hideous and is invading other countries and is spreading their infection everywhere.

Works both ways doesn't it? Almost like they're both cunts?

r196 but but but Whatabout this!! Whatabout that!!!

[quote]After reading all the posts coming from trolls claiming to be British I'm starting to wonder if that angry British right winger cunt who posted tons of stuff over the years was Russian as well.

There's no need to wonder. Your suspicions are correct. Russians always pretend to be some other nationality when they post. Always. That's their MO. There were tons of Russians pretending to be from Wales, Ireland, London, etc. all over the internet in the months leading up to Brexit (see link below), and they're still doing this crap today, pretending to come from everywhere in the world (Canadian, American, British, etc.) but never, ever posting as Russians.

It's this kind of stuff that makes me so contemptuous of the Russians and why I have no problems shitting all over them. There are several forms of cowardice that are abhorrent--including violence--but this type of thing (of planting seeds of chaos on the internet under cover of darkness and surreptitiously poisoning people and feigning confusion when accused), is the lowest form of cowardice. Jihadists, Rightwing extremist groups are violent assholes but at least they let you know where they stand. Russians will stir things up among their enemies, laugh at the chaos they create as people go at each other's throats and countries destabilize, then run scurry away like cockroaches pretending that they had nothing to do with anything.

R192, I suggest you stop getting your information from Russians. Every politician in Ukraine’s Rada is a former commie or former Komsomol member. So no matter what Russians tell you, they are not neo Nazis.

Ukraine was invaded by Russia and Ukrainians living in invaded areas are now persecuted by Russia.

I’ve read scores of Russian sources, Ukrainian sources, and have a relative who served on the front. I also know someone from Crimea, an ethnic Russian now living in Odesa who speaks no Ukrainian but was so incensed by the invasion he joined the army.

You may want to research Donbas and the names Borodin and Strelkov, as a start.

[quote]It's this kind of stuff that makes me so contemptuous of the Russians and why I have no problems shitting all over them.

This is exactly how I've started to feel about Americans re: this "RUSSIA!!" conspiracy. All the nasty stereotypes about Americans coming true, and by the liberal educated ones too.

Serious question r198 do you own a passport? Have you ever left the US? I can't imagine how narrow a view of the world you must have to think that there are literal Russian agents sitting on a tiny little gay men's forum like this. You must be some fly over bumfuck hill billy.

They appear on less obscure sites than this one so yes, it is possible, although I doubt they are here now.

Oops meant more obscure. Forgive me, I have a raging headache.

[quote]If they focused as much attention on fixing their own country as they do on destroying the rest of the world, they would probably be much better off. It's easiest, though, for their kleptocrats to steal from them if they are distracted by some big "enemy" they can blame everything on, instead of their own actions.

r138 you wrote this about Russia but this could also be said about the US. Our government is corrupt as well, equally corrupt to Russia.

R200 can't spell flyover or hillbilly the way Americans do. Make a note of this for future posts: in both cases use one world, not two.

Troll.

Oh, and while I'm not R198, it's a largely gay male forum. We all have passports - how else could we travel as much as we do?

R203 yes Boris we've seen the other Russian trolls post similar things in this thread and we have called it out for the Russian troll's favourite Whataboutism tactic that it clearly is. You guys need to try a bit harder as you are very predictable at this point. Even repeating yourselves in this thread.

R201 if you read this thread it's the same handful of trolls repeating the same arguments and using Russia's favourite tactics: Whataboutism, gaslighting, etc. - they have been surprisingly active in this thread lately. I don't think all of them are Russians, but the ones that are doing the "both sides" arguments are either official trolls or unofficial ones. They hope they present enough different theories in order to trigger others into posting and reinforcing their points, or arguing them and thus creating more divisiveness and/or shutting down the conversation. They want it to snowball.

[quote] R192: ...In the Ukrainian elections the majority voted against the right, who wanted closer ties to the EU and America...The right then with the help of far right neo-nazis, the right stages a coup and overthrows the elected government and installs themselves in power...

As I recall, the Ukrainian people were overwhelmingly in favor of closer ties to the EU. When the government reluctantly acted to initiate this, Russia invaded to block it. Russia had wanted Ukraine to elect to join some Russia backed trading block instead.

Somewhere along the lines, the pro-Russian kleptocrat fled to Russia, and the popular, pro-EU opposition leader took power. The palatial private home(s) of the former ruler have since been open to the public, for them to see how he looted the state for personal benefit.

A decade ago or so, Russia poisoned the leading candidate for President in Ukraine. I can’t imagine the Ukrainian people ever wanting ties with their Russian oppressors.

Why is anyone with a different opinion to you a 'troll'? Can you not envision other people having their own thoughts and convictions, have you maybe thought about getting tested to see if you're on the autism spectrum? Or are you just and arrogant, obnoxious, blowhard that wants to steamroll anything you don't agree with.

R208, One of the mistakes Russians make about the Ukraine invasion is the assumption that most Americans paid close attention to it. They didn't. So, the idea that they were gaslighted as to what was really going on is just kind of funny.

That said, it's known that Putin monkeyed in the Ukraine election before meddling in ours. That he's sneaky is no surprise, he is after all KGB.

The idea that, somehow, once upon a time Americans trusted Russia is even funnier. Any time I hear a politician talk about how "it's a shame we can't be better friends with Russia" I know I'm looking at someone who's been paid off. Like Dana Rohrabacher. Or Trump.

But you guys have a weakness--you actually take pride in that crapfest you call a country. Russians always take pride in no one having defeated them, but, honestly, it's a damn shame the U.S. didn't take you over post WWII. You'd be in much better shape economically and you'd have some sense of how to run a country. But, instead, the corruption has spread the other way.

You guys love your dictators and see any open form of government as "weak". It's pathetic.

When I was still in school, there was a popular hoax going around that geologists in Russia had lowered sound equipment into a crater in Siberia and what they unearthed were the "sounds of hell."

Of course, it was all false. What they really recorded were the sounds of everyday life in a Russian town!

No need for someone else defeating the Russians, they pretty much self-defeat themselves every-fucking-time. Lmao!!!!

R192 = Jeremy Corbyn

The Baltic nations (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) know whats up. When Latvia and Estonia became independent, they refused to grant national citizenship to its Russian population living there.

R213, Interesting, particularly given how the Soviet Union moved Russians into various satellites while conducting mass deportations to Siberia (estimated at 124,000 for Estonia) as a means of controlling local populations. The Russians who came to Estonia didn't come there because they loved Estonians and wanted to assimilate.

Prior to WWII, ethnic Estonians made up 88 percent of the population of Estonia. By 1970 the percentage had dropped to 60 percent. (The drop was even more severe in Latvia.)

Russia, the current one, has never apologized, made reparations or acknowledged wrongdoing in this matter. If things have really changed, you'd think they'd apologize for Stalin. But no.

But, hey, maybe that's why Russians are so xenophobic and encourage xenophobic attitudes in their trolling--they think immigrants are like them.

There are an awful lot of posts in this thread with very strange grammar.

Which ones? I speak a few Slavic languages and can tell you if those posts are by native Russian speakers.

Most Brits I know aren't quite so singularly obsessed with defending the honor of Mother Russia.

So who knows who the fuck you really are.

R208 made some weird mistakes--"steamroll anything"--it makes sense, but it's not idiomatic. R203 screwed up with the prepositions. Prepositions are the hardest things for non-native speakers to get right. R200's is full of off-kilter English and incorrectly used idioms. Plus, methinks it doth protest too much.

[quote] R213: The Baltic nations (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) know whats up. When Latvia and Estonia became independent, they refused to grant national citizenship to its Russian population living there.

So, then what happened? Have the Russians stayed, with Russian citizenship? Or were they eventually pressured to leave, or felt so unwelcome, that they voluntarily self-deported? Or something else? I’m curious. TY.

Lots of Russians still in Estonia, but many did return to Mother Russia. As EU members, Estonians could also move within the EU.

R218, none of that is Slavic type syntax. I recognize it immediately, as I hear it a lot.

Maybe not, but it's certainly not native English syntax.

R219, A bunch left, a bunch have stayed--Estonia's doing well, so the quality of life is better there and the Estonians have become more tolerant as the percentage of Russians has diminished. There is one set of ethnic Russians who have been there a long time--Old Believers who moved to escape religious prosecution in Russia in the 18th century.

Also, Estonia, like a lot of Europe has a below-replacement birth rate, so they don't need to lose more of their population right now.

[quote]This is exactly how I've started to feel about Americans re: this "RUSSIA!!" conspiracy. All the nasty stereotypes about Americans coming true, and by the liberal educated ones too.

So what? That's supposed to hurt my feefees or something? I have so little respect for you and your people that I couldn't give a shit that you're beginning to feel this way. So feel however you want. You're beneath contempt' don't you understand that? You can't hurt my or any other American's feelings with this "we're beginning to feel bad about you, too" when we see you as little more than human cockroaches spreading chaos, misery and dissension and then scurrying away in the aftermath to escape detection.

OP, I’ll try to answer some of your questions in a few posts. I find the questions you raised intellectually interesting.

As other posters mentioned above, the main reason why most Soviet bloc architecture (20th C) is not very aesthetic is because most of it was free (fully state-subsidized) housing for the locals. It wasn’t built to be pretty, it was built to be useful, convenient, affordable (in terms of state budget) and widely available throughout all the different countries that comprised the Union (ranging from Russia to Central Asian states). The principle was rational: practicality and functionality over aesthetics and decorations.

They had to build A LOT of fully-subsidized housing (on an incredibly mass scale for ca. 140 million people, which gradually ballooned to ca. 300 million people, and covering an immense geographical span) within a relatively short timespan. Because during Tsarist times most of the region was rural, an agrarian backwater – most people lived in villages. But you can’t build a modern industrial economy based on outdated, remote villages – you need big cities, with lots of basic urban housing, to modernize. And that’s exactly what they did.

Once they finished building free housing and basic state facilities (and recovering from WWII, which destroyed most of it again), they finally had time to focus on exterior decor. But by then it was the 60s-80s. And what was the popular architectural style across Europe at that time? That’s right, so-called ‘brutalism’ and ‘minimalist modernism’. As an analogy, look at the Barbican in London, which was built around the same time. It’s a peculiar monstrosity made of concrete. I actually find that period style intriguing, but it’s not conventionally pretty. However, it was considered very ‘modern’ and ‘avant-garde’ at that time, just like the Tate Modern (a converted power station).

To be fair, some period architecture from the Soviet time is quite beautiful (Seven Sisters skyscrapers, the Metro system, etc.). As for the modern period, it’s mostly post-modernism (glass skyscrapers, etc).

[quote] Nothing beautiful built since the 1910s

OP, out of curiosity, what exactly did the Russians build in the “1910s” that you regard as “beautiful”? They were knee-deep in WW1 in the 1910s (a war that the last Tsar was pretty much losing because he was too inept to modernize). And in the first decade of the 1900s the Tsar was ‘busy’ losing another war to the Japanese (for the same reason). So I doubt he was preoccupied with building anything “beautiful” during that time. (And if he was, he probably didn't have his priorities straight.)

[quote] This is what happens to a former world class country that allows the unwashed masses to take power and purges its elites. This country used to produce the likes of Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Tchaikovsky and Shishkin.

Their Empire wasn’t a “world-class” country under mid-to-late 19th C Tsarism (when Tolstoy, etc lived), R82. Look up its economic data pre-1917. It was way behind e.g. Britain, which was fully industrialized by then. The Soviets did many negative things, but some of the positive things they did accomplish was drag Imperial Russia out of the stone age. In the span of just a few decades they fully modernized, industrialized and educated the Empire’s various nations (literacy levels jumped from ca. 20% to 90%). Given the huge size of the old Tsarist Empire and its big varied population, this policy achievement was actually remarkable.

Tsarism’s focus on ‘aesthetics’ and ‘beauty’ was actually very elitist, self-indulgent and pointless for its mostly destitute subjects. Yes, the Tsars had Tchaikovsky, etc. But what use was all that to a regular person when concert halls and opera houses were mainly for royalty and the 1%? What use was Dostoevsky when under Tsarism 80% of people couldn’t even read?

The last Tsars were like Marie-Antoinette or Emperor Nero, playing the fiddle & fooling around with poetry while Rome burned.

[quote] Geographically, flat

A cursory look at a map shows many mountain ranges in that region, OP. Ural mountains (formed by a collision of the European and Asian continents), Caucasus Mountains in the south and Altai mountains in the east. Perhaps some more that I’m not aware of.

It’s like assuming the US is flat just because of the Midwestern Great Plains, while forgetting about the Rockies, Blue Ridge Mountains, etc.

[quote]Fuck Subhuman Russian Trash

If r222 wasn't gay he'd be a bible thumping, ar-15 toting, flag waiving far right Trumpist.

Do the trolldar trick on him and look at the deranged shit he's put in this thread.

Racist Tea Party trash or supposed 'liberals' being told who to hate by their respective vested interest media's, it's difficult to tell the difference between the two.

[quote]Do the trolldar trick on him and look at the deranged shit he's put in this thread.

How about we do the trolldar trick on you, Boris? Bet we'll find plenty of grammatical errors and weird syntax.

Mother Russia's pussy stinks.

[quote]Their Empire wasn’t a “world-class” country under mid-to-late 19th C Tsarism (when Tolstoy, etc lived), [R82]. Look up its economic data pre-1917.

I meant purely in terms of artistry (architecture, literature, art, etc.), not in terms of economics and politics. I think they had some of the best creatives of the 19th century rivaling France and England. In many ways, I think they were underrated. But I understand what you mean about the state of the country being in shambles under Czar leadership.

I strongly disagree with you, r223. It is because the Bolsheviks killed anyone who could design buildings. Most of what they built was crap. That’s not true of Czarist era buildings.

[quote] R91: Good point, [R89]. Plus add in Jewish philanthropy, ditto, for museums, medical, cultural, educational institutions, once US Jews got the gelt to give.

Carl and Ruth Shapiro were Boston philanthropists who must have had a ton of money as they have a medical center named for them, plus I see their names in a lot of other places. He was targeted by Bernie Madoff. IIRC, Bernie asked him to pony-up some millions in the days before Bernie went bust, and Shapiro did. What an ass, Bernie was. Shapiro reportedly lost $550 million to the scam. Shapiro lost his friend and life’s work in one moment.

What a hopeless, depressing hellhole.

Hey Commie trolls. Serious question. Do you have supervisors? Do you get in trouble if your tactics are noted, mocked and derailed? Do they dock you a beet per shift? Do you remotely feel bad that we in the civilized world despise you and want you all to starve and freeze in Siberia or are you that dead inside that literally nothing bothers you, ever, like "oh well, I only got 9 beets today instead of 10, so I'll just kill someone on the way home and fry them up for lunch." Are you sociopaths or psychopaths? Or are you all just like the rest of the women in your family who lie back and think of Brezhnev and tell their tricks to leave the ruble on the dresser?

Ooh! Follow up questions: are you or did you mine my post for colloquialisms that you'll use on your next shift? Will you bring up your new found knowledge at your pre-shift meeting (I'm picturing a call centre situation only with more rats and Krokodil)? Do you know what a colloquialism is?

Do you know what knowledge is?

R234

Russia is so ugly because it killed all of its best and brightest minds, drove out millions of people who contributed to its rich culture before the Russian Revolution, and handed the country over to its peasants. Imagine if America killed everyone off except the banjo picking, jug band, Duck Dynasty crowd and that's Russia in a nutshell.

A lot of ill-educated comment on this thread.

FACT: Russia was rapidly industrialising under Nicholas II — despite him. Indeed, it was experiencing something of an economic miracle. Was it Witte or Stolypin who said “all we need is another ten years of peace and all will be well”? Either way, they didn’t get it.

Most european cities have endless acres of ugly public housing. Ever been to Glasgow, OP? Or viewed the outskirts of Paris?

.

Россия — говно.

[quote]Nothing beautiful built since the 1910s.

That was the decade of the Russian Revolution. I hope that's just a coincidence.