More Marvelous Midwestern Towns, 2018 Edition Part II

Liz comes a little later.....but there's a very young ME! and a very sexy Dr. Mike near the beginning.

(well, gotta say - Dr. Mike has looked better elsewhere.)

Back to LaHubbard always flubbing her lines. Why did she do that???

The Tales of the City reboot includes Barbara Garrick as DeDe - she's been all over the NYC soaps, including a stint on GL as evil nurse Charlotte.

Ellen Dolan was always so lesbian-like.

ugh i hated that ed

I saw Margaret Colin yesterday in Carousel. Jealous, bitches?

Was Justin Deas in the audience? What about Colleen Z? She did not like Margaret, to say the least.

Was she in Carousel, or on one?

There's a poll on the front page of Digest online that asks about favorite soap matriarch. I voted for Lady Eyes a Buggin but she's only got 4 percent of the vote thus far.

That donut eating snatch Alice Horton is in first!

Martha tweeted out that Liz’s pussy stunk on the airplane. Phew!

Miss Hansis didn’t win an Emmy last night. Has anyone checked in on Roger Newcomb yet? He must be beside himself that the object of his affection lost, again.

Where IS everyone?

Is it true La Hubbard was on the Emmys?

LaHubbard is now a senile old bitch. She has no clue who or where she is. Kinda sad. Watch the enmys. She’s clueless.

Any DeFreitas sightings last night?

I can't believe there's STILL a Soap Opera Digest!

Did anyone ask Hubbard about Fulton plugging up the toilet constantly?

Me too. It's now $5 a copy which must be keeping it afloat.

I will hand it to Doug Marland for creating Lisa 2.0 with the character of Carly Tenney. Carly may be the first successful reboot of a character ever.

Except Doug didn't create Carly. She came along a few years after his death.

Well, I'll be, this says he did....or at least that somehow she was based on his long term projections.

[quote]Being part of the late Douglas Marland's creations that never materialized due to his death, [bold]the headwriters who took over after his death (and were part of Marland's writing team) created the character of Carly in 1995.[/bold]Had St. Doug lived to tell her story, Carly might have been bearable. Instead, she was the least sympathetic character I ever saw.

[quote]Being part of the late Douglas Marland's creations that never materialized due to his death, the headwriters who took over after his death (and were part of Marland's writing team) created the character of Carly in 1995.

Had St. Doug lived to tell her story, Carly might have been bearable. Instead, she was the least sympathetic character I ever saw.

I decided to check out that "web soap" Tainted Dreams now that it's on Amazon Prime, and WOW does Grant Aleksander look good! He had a semi nude shower scene and his body is still rocking.

The show however, is TERRIBLE!

Web soaps in general are still kinda meh. Just watched the After Forever show and Kevin Spirtas was so bad in the first episode it was hard to watch any others.

When the credits are longer than the episodes themselves, it's an issue.

Poor Roger Newcomb has been working that stroll for a while but it just hasn't happened in a big way yet.

"Working that stroll": a new one.

Newcomb is a disaster in whatever he does.

Should I know who Roger Newcomb is?

He’s a mess who declared Luke & Noah the greatest soap super couple ever, before Noah even aired onscreen. Newcomb is an annoying tall skinny snowflake.

I wonder if I would have liked Nuke more if the writing had been there. There were days when it was embarrassing to watch.

R29 He's the guy behind the We Love Soaps website and he's been the big supporter of web soaps; he produces the Indie Web Series awards show.

He was also a huge Van Hansis and Luke/Noah fan.

Not seeing all the replies, but I have the crazy person who talks about everyone's pussy stinking and how their poop clogged the CBS studio toilets blocked. I don't engage with mentally ill people.

I had him blocked until Muriel dismissed our settings. I haven't noticed him again yet.

Loved seeing Martha and Liz at the Emmys, but I wish Liz would have glammed it up. She's still so beautiful!

The funniest thing ever is that Queen Newcomb used to have Van Hansis fan events and he gave the edict that you could not ask Van about his personal life or you would be asked to leave the event. LOL. This was when Van was in the closet and telling The Advocate that he was straight, even though everyone under the sun knew Van is gay. Too funny.

[quote]I had him blocked until Muriel dismissed our settings. I haven't noticed him again yet.

That's him at R18.

Thank you, r37.

I think he is Spicen. Or he may be Scholar, whom Spicen constantly cunts about. Whoever he is, he's gone.

Scholar is a loser. Spicen is HOT!

Darlings, let's ignore the intruders. Like I ignore Cecile.

Let's focus on the fabulous!

I didn't know that both Douglass Watson and Helen Wagner died on May 1 (in different years of course).

Charita Bauer and Mary Stuart both died on Feb 28. Different years.

I miss Emma’s cheese puffs.

Emma’s freaking cheese puffs made me want to vomit.

The Eyes Have It!

Ada was so masculine.

10 years since the old bitch McKunty croaked off. Good riddance!

But are Emma's cheese puffs anything like her beef curtains?

Imagine being the headwritet of one of these shows in the late 80s.

What storyline would you have written? What character would you have brought back? Who would you have killed off?

Another World:

I would have brought on Rachel's half sister Pammy with a family, perhaps lower income. You could have replayed some of Rachel's daddy issues. Pammy could throw it in Rachel's face that Gerald actually raised her and left Rachel behind. Maybe she could have been married to Ted Clark. Pammy may have had a daughter that could have been a rival for Amanda. And a teen son who was an artist was drawn to Rachel which would drive Pammy to distraction . If it was before Mac died, maybe have Pammy try to seduce Mac. If it was after Mac died, maybe have Rachel be drawn to Ted. Ted was something of a throwaway character that got bulldozed in Rachel's lust for Steve, so I would have retconned their romance and marriage to be a bit bigger than what it was.

Or I would have just thrown out that entire Reginald Love/Mary McKinnon storyline, gotten rid of the McKinnon's and had Pammy be Mary McKinnon and then Reginald and Pammy could have been the Bizarro Mac and Rachel.

Anyway I would have brought on Rachel's half sister and I would have started to rebuild the Matthews family.

Good ideas, R51.

I would have had Carl have a Regarding Henry-type brain operation where he woke up with his life’s memory completely erased. That would have been the only plausible way for him to have a relationship with a woman he kidnapped and whose husband and family he planned to murder.

Matt Cory and Sam Fowler = husbands

I would have kept Jamie Frame in Bay City and he would have always been a main character.

While Richard Bekins played Jamie (79-83), he was a central character. Much of the show revolved around his Jamie.

However, the subsequent Jamies (Stephen Yates, Larry Lau and Russell Todd) were all treated more as supporting characters.

I would have moved heaven and earth to get Richard Bekins back. Bekins also had amazing chemistry with Victoria Wyndham, something all the subsequent Jamies lacked.

I would have made Jamie bi, too.

I would have kept Cecile in town. If Nancy Frangione wasn't willing to go back on contract, then I'd have brought Cecile back for 6-8 week stays at least once a year.

Similarly, I would have kept Maggie Cory in town. So much potential with the daughter of Cecile and Sandy, but the show wrote Maggie off and shortly after that, we got Lila who had no connection to any of the existing families on the canvas.

I would have still introduced Justine into the mix, but NOT as a Rachel clone, NOT played by La Wyndham, and NOT batshit-Grand-Guignol-insane. Instead, I'd have her be the free spirit Carl first described her as, somewhat embittered by her treatment at Spencer's hands and separation from her sons, just come to town to finally connect back with them all, cause drama in the Harrison guys' lives, and stir up a triangle with Carl/Rachel/herself.

No wonder you fraus aren’t writers. #bad

#fuckyou, R58.

I’d have brought in Cory Ewing, Mac’s godson/Clarice and Larry’s son, and had him be the victim of male rape.

Dream on piccadillys. #awfulstories

I would have had Reva become a fat, drunken has been.

I would have brought Roxy back and made her a serial killer. Her first victim will be Cassie (as played by Laura Wright).

I can't say what I would have done with GL in the 80s, but at about the time when Reva and Annie were fighting, I would have had Roxie come back to reveal the fact that Annie was lying. And I would have cast Susan Batten as Roxie if Kristi Ferrell wasn't available. THAT is who she should have played, not that damn Connor Walsh.

I would have rapidly aged Peter Reardon and brought him into the hospital as a doctor. Would have been a good counterpoint in the Jonathan era - grungy Jonathan vs Peter, who has one foot in the Reardon camp but is also influenced by adoptive mom Vanessa Chamberlain Lewis. Peter would be troubled in his own way, but more a good guy.

I would have NEVER let Alex become a joke, or have her withhold Gus's identity from Alan, which made her no better than Alan and her father.

Susan Batten as Roxie? Dear God, no. Roxie was HOT. And younger.

Susan Batten and CBS = never the twain should have met.

I would have brought Annie Ward's kids back on ATWT for a new generation of Stewarts. But I would have made Paul, Andy, and Lien the core characters.

On GL I would have written out every last Lewis and Shayne. I would have moved Heaven and Earth to keep Abby. And I would have made the minister a new generation Rutledge and given him a family a la 7th Heaven.

I never bought Lien as a character.

I loved Marland, truly, but a few of his instakids really didn't work. I didn't buy the Lien story, or the Duke story.

R67, the problem with Lien #1 was that Ming Na-Wen wasn’t a fucking Amerasian! She looked 100% asian. Lien #2, Lea Salonga didn’t look Amerasian. Lindsay Price would have been perfect but she probably wouldn’t stay very long because she’d want to go out to LA for primetime.

I did like SOME of the sudden kids stories. I loved Sabrina - at least, the story about finding her. And I loved Scott Eldridge. THAT one made sense. That was a ruined character - could have been an antihero that Mama would always side with. They messed that up by firing Breen and then doing some bad recasting.

Hated the Lien story at first, but Ming Na-Wen won me over. Loved the Duke story right from the start! A Seattle grunge dude was perfect for the times and Michael Louden was equally adept at dramatic and comedic scenes. Plus anything that put John/Larry front and center was alright by me.

Louden looked creepy. There’s a reason Duke never caught on with the audience.

I would have written a story for AW Rachel discovering she has a long-lost sister, and her search leads her to a diner in Phoenix.

Michael Loudon was OK...and great with Larry Bryggman...but the notion that he was a boxer was laughable.

Joe Breen was perfect as Scott and swoony with Neal. Christopher Cass was a blank. Doug Wert was without nuance....though that may have been the writers' fault. I saw Wert in Deathtrap and he was no great shakes there either.

Another World premiered 54 years ago today.

I am standing and clapping for the scene at R74.

Viva Lady Eyes a Buggin, now and forever.

I love that scene -- VW rarely went over the top (Justine notwithstanding) so it was really effective when she went all out.

Bug eyes got AW cancelled.

Take us away, R77.

R76 Yes!

I shudder to think how it would have resonated if McKinsey was still playing Iris.

so THAT's where the thousand other worlds line comes from

This day would not be complete without a replay of the scene at 21:07 of this clip. The way Aunt Liz grimaces after Rachel says "where is the son you've ever given him," is just everything. VW was everything!

R81 I still wish there was a t-shirt with that phrase and face.

I would SO buy it.

The thing I love about that scene is that I can imagine all of those American housewives back in 1974 put down the ironing and just stare at the TV in shock. Then I can hear them after the show calling their friends and going, "Girl, did you see what Rachel did today."

You know when she said "where is the son" most of them clutched their pearls and said "Poor Alice!"

But a few of those bitches were like "Fuck Alice! Rachel, get it, gurl!"

Watching that clip you can see why Lemay wanted rid of Jacquie Courtney. She’s not on the same level acting wise as Victoria Wyndham or Irene Dailey.

My Grandma hated Rachel until the day AW went off the air because she was mean to sweet Alice. I wish she were alive so I could show her this clip. I just love how Rachel just gleefully bops down the stairs while a mad woman chases after her.

Rachel sending Alice dead baby clothes after her miscarriage was a tad rude.

[quote] Rachel sending Alice dead baby clothes after her miscarriage was brilliant. #TeamRachel

fixed!

I mean, if I were to throw Cecile out of her house, I would have at least given her bus fare and perhaps a coupon for a free Big Mac. I am not completely unfeeling, despite what Victoria might say.

Lemay was a drunk who probably was rejected by the 'Alice Matthewses' in his life and he vented that resentment against the actress who was mega popular. Lemay pissed in a potted plant at the AW Xmas party 1973 and generally made a fool of himself. He left that out of his book.

I think his book was tremendous.

How was Liz related to Alice?

Liz was married to her uncle.

R90 = Virginia Dwyer

Man, that is when soaps were soaps!!!! It’s so interesting to me that in this era of peak tv and streaming and so much investment in premium programming- I’m not sure that level of drama could be achieved by 3 actresses today. Of course it can happen when you have super heightened concept shows like The Handmaids Tale- I mean a quiet domestic drama. It’s what R83 so brilliantly observed- no one is putting down their phones anymore (today’s version of the iron) to gasp at over the top drama. It’s sad that capacity to thrill and entertain doesn’t exist anymore. I guess you have to find that sort of villainy and good versus evil on Fox News which is super depressing.

R95, I think the best part of that scene is that no matter how over the top that scene was, it was relatable to the viewers. Who at home couldn't relate to a poor girl, with a son by this wealthy man, wanting a nice house and at the same time be shocked that she wanted that particular house, his sweet wife's house.

There is no evil all powerful crime lord. No science fiction. No saving the world. It's just stuff that happens when your ex wife decides that she wants to make things difficult.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why soap opera has had to change and evolve in order to survive this long. But what I think soaps have lost is the ability to use simple human drama to tell story. Which is why reality shows are basically the new soap operas.

[quote]I understand why soap opera has had to change and evolve in order to survive this long.

But has it survived? The shows we're talking about certainly haven't. And the ones that have..."survived"...aren't worth looking at.

I had always wished that that period of AW - it would have been mentioned more that Jamie was thought to be Russ's kid for years and how heartbroken Jim and Mary were to find out he wasn't their grandson - Jim's namesake. Lemay never explored that aspect of the story.

It was because Virginia Dwyer couldn’t play “heartbreak.” It wasn’t in her skill set. And it wasn’t in Hugh Marlowe’s skill set, either, bless him. Lemay had a good feel for what certain actors were capable of doing.

I mean let's be honest, Helen Wagner was old fashioned in the same way. It wasn't in her skill set to do the kind of psychologically nuanced stories that started being popular in the 1970s.

She was "Coffee, dear?" and a somewhat brittle, prissy foil for Lisa.

She somehow survived the 70s and early 80s until Marland worked her back into the fabric, though.

Nancy Hughes was never the center of the major story on the show. Alice Matthews was.

Don't get me wrong, I thought both actresses were great at what they did. And I think there is definitely a place for "personalities"on soaps who don't have the range and depth of real actors. Lemay was used to the stage where the writer is king. But soap viewers, by and large, care more about the people they see every day and whether they are engaging than with the words they say.

Helen Wagner had a stinky old puss. It was gross.

Which Don was the bigger P&G asshole?

Don May (TEON) or Don Stewart (TGL)

Don May still eats out Carla Borelli. Yum!

I always think these types of threads attract older DL posters (after all, who under the age of 35 has seen AW? It's been off the air for almost 20 years).

And yet the posts about toilet-plugging, smelly snatches, and dyke humor are all over the place. Go figure.

R105 It's only ever the truly ancient queens who find toilet humor funny.

I'm in the awkward position of being old enough (45) to have loved AW, but not old enough to have seen the Lemay era, and I'd love to find a forum to talk about AW which doesn't immediately turn into a Lemay worship-fest. Sadly, DL ain't it.

Sorry, R106, Lemay’s AW was the best show ever on daytime. Deal.

I beg to differ, R107. That would be Douglas Marland's ATWT.

So you want to confine yourself to only talking about 8 years of a show that ran for over 30 years, R107? What the hell more is there to say?

[quote]I'd love to find a forum to talk about AW which doesn't immediately turn into a Lemay worship-fest. Sadly, DL ain't it.

I was around for Lemay in the 70s and his brief return in 1988 (but his Bible played out for three more years). I do enjoy talking about that. I also like talking about the 1980s period between his two stints, because there were still some great plots in there.

AW from about 1993 (by the time Lemay's Bible ran out) on was not my cup of tea. I knew how much better the show could be and the 90s paled in comparison.

But I also recognize that if someone started watching in 1993, they would not know the Lemay era and might consider the 90s to be a great. The guys who do the AW home page are both big fans of AW in the 90s.

All I can say is go ahead and post comments about AW in the 1990s here. You might get others who will respond positively. You never know unless you try.

R105 That's one seriously demented, sad poster. Just ignore her.

Thanks R110. For the record, I started watching in 1990 and my favorite years are from 90-94. There's a lot of mid-80s stuff on YouTube that I've caught up with, and some of Lemay's 1988 run.

Frankly, though I enjoyed the introduction of great characters like Jake, Felicia, Carl, the Hudson twins, etc in the 80s, IMO the storylines at that time were far cheesier than the early 90s. I put it down to trying to compete with the craziness of GH at that time. But you're right, there was still a lot of good in the 80s.

My favorite storylines from the early 90s were the return of Carl Hutchins (pre his hook up with Rachel), Alicia Coppola's Lorna/the 'Felicia finds her daughter' plot, and of course 'who shot Jake?' Donna Swajeski was my favorite writer -- I think Carl's return was her idea; I doubt that was from Lemay's bible since Carl wasn't one of his creations.

Carl also wasn't Lemay's kind of character.

The early 80s were terrible for the show. By the mid-80s, there were sparks of renewed life with Sally & Catlin, Cass & Kathleen, Felicia & Wally, et al. But yes, I don't think things really kicked into high gear until Lemay/Swajeski.

[quote] Carl also wasn't Lemay's kind of character.

And there you have it; I adored Carl, but I easily OD on Frames. C'est la vie.

Does anyone else remember the introduction of Grant Harrison? I've been watching on YouTube and I have to say, seeing Dack Rambo in a hospital bed with a "mystery illness" is REALLY hard to take.

Lemay had no idea what kind of range Virginia Dwyer could exhibit. He was a drunk, soused when he wrote scripts and carrying ill conceived grudges against the talent who were out front and center while he had to hide behind his typewriter. When Bay City suddenly became the beacon of the New York social set and we had one wealthy character after another migrating to the midwest to visit Iris - it was preposterous. The dialogue had characters talking about 'marrying beneath your station' and talks of attending cotillions and who was vacationing on the French Riviera. That was a far cry from the days of the Matthews dealing with snobby Aunt Liz looking down on her poor relations.

For the record on Dwyer - she had one great scene where she lit into George Reinholt's Steven Frame for hurting Alice and Russ. She let him have it and told him she wished he would leave town and never darken their door, that he and Rachel deserved one another. Lemay didn't write t hat scene, it was probably Cendella.

Bay City had a clear identity under Lemay/Rauch-there was the Cory Compex, for starters. A lot of the characters were doing specific jobs-publishing, architecture, etc. Did we ever have any idea what the fuck Walsh Enterprises on ATWT actually DID? No. And after Lemay left AW just became like all the other shows-interchangeable faces working at vague job positions but often having enough time off from work to go chase after a murderer or a golden chalice or some such shit.

Oops, the Cory COMPLEX, of course.

And now we have the Lemay Was A Drunk Troll. How vivid.

I don't think that you even watched after Lemay left, R116 because you're talking out of your ass. The 80s and 90s were full of vivid characters who all had a lot more "character" than any other soap. Cory Publishing remained strong as a locale and a place of employment, and there were plenty of characters who had identifiable jobs.

Walsh seemed to be a consulting firm. As was Montgomery & Associates.

I always enjoyed the Carl Hutchins character, especially his return in the early 1990s, complete with the ponytail.

One of my favorite memories was an episode that ended with the shadow of a person with a ponytail in Ryan Harrison's apartment By that point, Carl was known to be Ryan's biological father, but Carl was not in town regularly. So, seeing the shadow of the ponytail, viewers assumed Carl was back for a visit. YEAH!

Next episode, the ponytailed person was revealed to be Lorna! Way to go AW! Nice psyche out! Not too long after that, Carl did return for another visit. Carl always added a level of excitement. Charles Keating was a fantastic actor.

That said, I just couldn't reckon Carl's romance with Rachel. He'd tried to kill Mac in 1984, so I couldn't believe she would fall for her. As charming as some of their romance scenes in New York were, I just couldn't get behind this romance because of the history. I always felt if they wanted to pursue that romance with Rachel, they should have written off Carl and brought back Keating as a different character.

The only other way of reconciling Carl's history with this romance was for him to have a MAJOR life changing event or HUGE brush with death which caused him to do THOUSANDS of acts of contrition and continual begging for forgiveness for WEEKS on end. Yes, the show kind of, sort of did that with Carl, but what they showed was only about 1/100th of what they needed to show for me to believe Carl was a changed man and Rachel could overlook their history.

Just as I was able to enjoy the Justine nonsense, r121, I was happy to see Rachel doing something besides worry about Cory, Iris, and/or the Red Swan. However, I had never seen Carl Hutchins before his return in the '90s.

[quote] That said, I just couldn't reckon Carl's romance with Rachel.

It was a little bizarre, but Carl had a hang-up about Rachel even back in the mid-80s. (They did a daydream sequence with Carl as Richard III to Rachel's Lady Anne!) As for Rachel, during their romance I remember they continually had her reference her own past as a "villain" and say that to not give Carl a chance as Mac had done for her would be hypocritical. I bought it, but I didn't come to the show with any 80s baggage.

And it was so refreshing to have older characters/actors front-and-center, when the rest of the show was going the teen-heavy route.

Hey, R119/douchebag, I watched AW, GL, ATWT and AMC all through the 80s and 90s. I suspect you never watched AW during its Golden Age and therefore your opinion is meaningless.

We usually avoid cunting in the Midwestern Towns. I wonder if any of these cunting tonight is the DDD.

[quote]As for Rachel, during their romance I remember they continually had her reference her own past as a "villain" and say that to not give Carl a chance as Mac had done for her would be hypocritical.

Rachel sent some baby clothes to a mother grieving her miscarriage and fucked somebody's else man and duped a nice middle class family and was mean to her mother. She wasn't trying to kill people or planning to take over the world.

[quote]That said, I just couldn't reckon Carl's romance with Rachel. He'd tried to kill Mac in 1984, so I couldn't believe she would fall for her.

Carl also sent one of his henchmen to kill Rachel in 1991. She suffered vision problems as a result.

It was absolutely ridiculous for Rachel to end up in a romantic relationship with Carl. I think he intended to kidnap little Amanda at one point, too.

[quote] We usually avoid cunting in the Midwestern Towns.

You're right! Cunting is reserved for one resident and one only

My, John Wesley Shipp, what big feets you have.

Ada gave out a good old kick in the cunt like no one else. Of course, she could also eat cunt like no one else.

Wonder if Rachel would have ever fallen for Carl if Ada had still been alive. Would Ada have talked some sense into Rachel.

Let's face it, Ada would have had some choice words for her daughter about getting involved with Carl. Lots of choice words. SAID VERY LOUDLY. Over and over and over.

Those would have been some great scenes. Sorry the show didn't get to air them.

Linda Dano was given a surprise 75th birthday party recently.

r133 Mimi didn't include Archspoiler or Soap Torcher in her list of occupations.

Let's focus on Linda and Colleen. I miss seeing them both.

Colleen looks great! Her legs were in the Leggs commercials, by the way.

Torchin is still around???? Ugh!!!! Cuntiest cunt ever.

I was really hoping Colleen would show up on another soap.

Colleen was THE best soap bitch ever. Nothing makes me happier than listening to Barbara tear into hypocritical Margo, tell Emily what a whore she is, or tell Carly... well, what a whore she is.

Barbara was very real. I *knew* a Barbara.

Most hated CZP. Royal bitch behind the scenes. And she cheated on her husband with Pinter. That did not go over well with classy people like Helen Wagner and Pat Bruder.

Helen basically called Colleen a slut in that video interview she did in 2005 or so, the one that was linked in a previous thread.

Why did Colleen and Hillary Bailey Smith not get along? And why was Anne Sward cast as the mother of thirty year olds when she was only a few years older than Scott and Hillary?

CZP has a small role in "After Forever," the new web series from gay actors Mitchell Anderson and Kevin Spirtas (former DOOL actor).

CZP needs to have several seats and keep her legs closed.

I loved working with Colleen.

NOT

So what's the story with Jake Weary? He wouldn't play gay on ATWT, but is more than willing on Animal Kingdom.

Too old for Reva to be making his decisions now, R146.

I think Kim was one of those actresses who hated that she was in soaps and couldn't break out into primetime and film. Therefore she didn't want her son to have to settle, like she did. Just a guess.

HBS and Colleen came to blows, supposedly, because Hillary was upset that Colleen got together with Mark Pinter.

HBS has done lots of shit over the years, especially with her "friend" Cat Hickland.

I served on a judging panel for the Daytime Emmy Awards with HBS and she sat in the back row with other OLTL colleagues (forget who they were) and was like a mean girl in high school. She didn’t impress me much. I did serve with Zimmer on one panel (Game Show Host) , though, and she was very friendly and engaging. During Jeopardy! we shouted out the questions/answers trying to impress each other. It was fun.

CZ was a bitch onset. She even had her dressing room far far away from the others because she didn’t want anyone to be near her dressing room. Total cunt. People HATED her.

R150 I would so love to chat with you someday!

Even though CZP and HBS hated each other in real life, it worked out great for the show. The Barbara/Margo feud was must-see TV for me, especially when Gregg Marx was playing Tom. It's ironic that Colleen spent most of her years playing Barbara as a victim and damsel-in-distress. When Marland made the decision to turn her into a bitch, it was the smartest move the show ever made. When the character slid to the back-burner, Hogan Sheffer did the same thing and once again made Babs a great villain.

Barbara always was great in her rivalries with Margo, Shannon, Emily, Rose and Carly. The only one that didn't quite work for me was Lucinda. It seemed like CZP was intimidated by EH.

Did they deSORAS Tom when Gregg Marx took over the role?

Justin Deas was born in 1948; Gregg Marx in 1955; Scott Holmes 1952.

C. David Colson was born in 1941! Peter Galman in 1945.

Gregg Marx is STILL hot.

R151 Uh, sure.

Colleen had friends there, so did HBS. But HBS has played those Mean Girls games at every set she's been on. That's why Bob Woods couldn't deal with her for years.

Who else did HBS hate besides Colleen?

I knew more about the ATWT stuff but I know things got so bad at OLTL that Nora being pushed into the Rappaport story was the result. Part of that was the conflict between pre and post Gottlieb OLTL but HBS and Hickland did all those sorts of whisper/gossip BS things.

Hickland is rather infamously accused of allegedly being behind an online catfishing, if I recall.

I've been trying to find Barbara/Margo scenes, but to no avail. I imagine they would be good.

I really hated the Carl and Rachel love story. Did not buy for an instant that Rachel would fall for a man like Carl after all he did to her family. I understand that VW loved working with CK but it ruined the character for me. And why the fuck did she start playing as if she were grand lady of the mansion. "Od Darling...I love you so"...So not Rachel...Loved her best with Mitch Blake who didn't stand for her BS. Mitch and Felicia was another couple I hated...as much as I loved Felicia I never liked her in any of her romantic pairings...the worst being Lucas as played by John Aprea...what a boring actor with such a lovely actress...

I wasn't a fan of the Mitch and Felicia pairing. Wow, what a way to make two dynamic characters boring!

I was hoping they would do more with Mitch and Rachel when they brought the character back in 1986, but that storyline was dropped pretty quickly (like so many other storylines with great potential started in mid-to-late 1986 that were pretty much abandoned by early 1987 in favor of less interesting storylines).

I would also have like to have seen what they could have done with a Mitch and Donna pair. Original Recipe Donna. Not Brand New Sexy Donna. I think Bill Espy and Anna Stuart likely would have had great chemistry.

Mrs Renfield had a smelly old snatch.

[quote] I think Bill Espy and Anna Stuart likely would have had great chemistry.

Really? I think Espy was about as charismatic as a slab of drywall. Sucked the air out of every scene he was in, especially while paired up with Felicia.

There's a lot competition for the worst soap actor ever, but Espy is up there. Great-looking guy, but man, did I feel sorry for Wyndham and Dano in their scenes with him -- they had to do a lot of heavy lifting to make it work.

I didn't like Carl/Rachel but by the end of AW I only peeked in occasionally....it was too much to bear.

They also completely fucked up Donna by the end - at the time where every older actress was being turned into a crone, a murderer or worse. I just couldn't watch.

[quote] I think Bill Espy and Anna Stuart likely would have had great chemistry.

If our dear Anna Banana could make the likes of Kale Browne interesting, perhaps she could have also worked miracles with Mr. Espy.

Shut up Serial asshole.

I didn't like Rachel and Mitch, but I understood Rachel and Mitch. Rachel's brain wanted cleaned up, good guys like Mac and Russ. But sexually she was drawn to bad boys like Steve Frame (white trash with money) and Mitch Blake (a criminal and a hustler).

Listen to this audio of Rachel and Steve from 1973, to me it sums up everything about who Rachel is.

Espy had such low energy he was sleep inducing but he was very beautiful so that made all the difference. And he must have known his lines or Wyndham would have had him fired like that poor guy playing her proposed love interest back in 1973 or 1974, a fellow sculptor suffering PTSD from the Vietnam War.

[quote] But sexually she was drawn to bad boys like Steve Frame (white trash with money) and Mitch Blake (a criminal and a hustler).

Yes. Which is why I don't get all of the pearl-clutching about Carl Hutchins from people who supposedly know Rachel's entire life history. It fits.

R172 If Carl hadn't been murderous, I could understand that theory. In fact, I agree with most of it, but I felt like Carl went a bit too far to be reformed/forgiven. Then again, it was the 90s and antiheroes were everywhere, so perhaps I'm just being old fashioned.

I always remember what Wyndham said on The David Susskind Show back in the early 1980s-“Soap operas are modern day reality tales and the wrongdoers eventually get their comeuppance.”

R174 And when that changed, people stopped watching.

A friend claims Walter Curtin died in a car accident on a rainy night. Is this true?

Exactly, R175. When villains like Stefano DiMera, James Stenbeck and Adam Chandler wouldn’t stay dead then the perception towards soaps changed and they lost whatever little integrity they had. And all because of lazy, fearful network and sponsor executives.

Walter and that fucking SCARF.

Yes, as I recall, Walter died in a car accident. Seems like Lenore and Walter had a huge fight about something and he rushed off. Lenore was supposed to feel guilty about the death since he died after the fight, but the show didn't do a whole lot with that.

As for what they were arguing about, it may have been that Lenore discovered the scarf. Or she may have discovered the scarf before that and they were arguing about something else. I don't remember exactly.

Walter was killed in Feb 1972, would have been 6 months after Pete Lemay started as HW in Aug 1971. In his book, Lemay indicates he hated that storyline and wanted to wrap it up quickly.

The real mystery was that I shoved that scarf up my fucking cooch just to end that damn story!

From Lemay's book:

Before embarking on my own story lines, I had to conclude those which were playing when I became headwriter. By the end of September, Pat’s housekeeper was out of the story, after kidnapping the Randolph twins in a psychotic obsession to assuage her guilt for having been responsible for the deaths of her own. Pat’s stomach cramps subsided, and her time and energies were spent caring for her house and children while John worked late at the office, paving the way for his fall from Sainthood, a future story Irna had not been advised of. Dan and Susan Shearer were banished to Boston, leaving us with three blonde leading ladies instead of four, and narrowing the focus to Alice and Steve, since the former was now appearing regularly on the air again, much to the delight of her many fans. I was not allowed to write Walter Curtin out, but I did keep him from the secret scarf as much as I could, waiting for the first opportunity to end that lagging story and move on to a more felicitous use of the lovely actress playing his wife Lenore.

Changing gears a little bit, is anyone on this thread old enough to remember when The Edge of Night switched from CBS to ABC? How was the move to ABC handled on screen? Was there a big Friday cliffhanger or something? Did the announcer tell people that TEON was moving to ABC? Just curious.

Here's an overview of EON's 90-minute re-premiere special. I believe the policy was the announcer/promos could say Edge was on another network, but couldn't specify which one..

Of course Geraldine was the star of the first episode on the new network!

That gets a Lois Over The Glasses Glance!

I loved Geraldine. She was truly a tragic figure. She lost everyone. I think she played a similar character on Somerset.

[quote]Pat’s housekeeper was out of the story, after kidnapping the Randolph twins in a psychotic obsession to assuage her guilt for having been responsible for the deaths of her own. Pat’s stoma

Pat’s housekeeper was played by DL fave Rue McClanahan.

Rue did not have anything good to say about AW. She could not understand how Pat Randolph could be so stupid as to not realize what Caroline was doing to her.

It was a really dumb story, although apparently a popular one.

But it's what Jerry ver Dorn called "wearing the beanie" - one of those stories where the whole story revolved around someone being truly fucking stupid and ignoring the obvious. The dumb character would be the one "wearing the beanie."

I love Lemay's book. I'm blessed enough to have a signed copy. I love how his sentences go on, giving you two to three pieces of info, and he'll then add another comma, and another phrase giving even more info.

I was a kid watching AW. It was on at 3 p.m.on the east coast where I grew up so I could watch it throughout grammer and jr. high and even high school.

I barely remember Caroline Johnson poisoning Pat Randolph and Walter WEEPING into that scarf, the focus on Steve/Alice with Rachel and then Mac coming on and Iris and the bugging of Eliot's sweet which mirrored the whole watergate thing going on in the real world.

To later read Lemay's memoir brought so much back.

It's on Kindle with a 2010 epilogue (!) and I highly recommend it.

I should say I barely remember Caroline, but I do remember her putting some poison into Pat's food and little Michael and Marianne barely sitting up in their chairs.

As the show went on and I grew older my memories were quite vivid. Iris' patio...Rachel being reunited with Jamie (Bobby Doran) at Alice's house. Walter and Lenore coming up with a nickname for Walter Jr. ("Curt").

In the fifth grade, I learned I was getting eye glasses and all I could think of was Hugh Marlowe always putting one of the stems on his glasses in the corner of his mouth as he was about to say something smart!

MARY (Matthews)!

Lemay wrote that he couldn't wrap his head around Walter letting pregnant Lenore go to jail for a murder he committed and when Lenore asked him why he did it he kept saying he loved her and the audience would never turn on him.

They must have shown Nancy Wickwire (Liz) in a flashback pick up that statue and start to club Wayne over the head and then FINALLY showed Wayne turning around and stopping her and then she left; ironically, Walter used the same statue to club Wayne over the head. Viewers thought for a while that it was Liz.

I watched Edge when it moved from CBS to ABC in Dec 1975.

It was masterfully done. At the end of the Friday episode, Kevin Jamison discovered an amnesia, presumed dead Nicole living in Paris. Meanwhile, in a location shoot, Serena turned into her alternate personality of Josie and shot her abusive husband, Mark Faraday, on the steps of the courthouse.

Those were two huge cliffhangers! The Serena/Josie storyline has been so well done (Louise Shaffer's best role of her many soap stints). And getting Maeve McGuire back as Nicole as brilliant. Adam and Nicole were the show's supercouple, but in the 18 months since Nicole had died, Adam had moved on with Brady Henderson (Dixie Carter), someone the audience really liked. So, this was setting things up for some good stories to come. Very compelling reason to tune into ABC.

The following Monday, in a 90 minute episode, they continued the stories. Nicole agreed to come to Monticello, even though her memory wasn't back yet. Meanwhile, Serena/Josie was jailed.

The thing that worked about this move was that ABC was airing the show at 4 p.m. CBS didn't have any soaps on at the time, so the audience could follow the show to ABC, while still keeping up with the other CBS shows they'd been watching for years.

Incidentally, that 90 minute episode first episode on ABC was also repeated that night at 11:30 p.m. on ABC.

That sounds so exciting R193. I didn't realize that another show had a DID story like OLTL. I also like that they did a special episode. I just googled it and nothing came up on YouTube, so I guess it doesn't exist.

The entire 90 minute episode isn't there, but this clip from the Dec. 1, 1975 episode is on YouTube.

And here's the clip of Josie shooting Mark on the courthouse steps.

Donald May was considered the star of Edge. He even had the "And Donald May as Adam Drake" credit at the end of the credits on the show.

As I recall, Donald liked really working with Dixie Carter and preferred the Adam-Brandy pairing. The show opting to go with the Adam-Nicole pairing in the long run, was a contributing factor in his deciding not to renew his contract in 1977. So, the show killed of Adam and brought in Joel Crothers to pair his Miles Cavanaugh with Nicole.

I loved how the Nicoles kept getting younger with each recast.

Was Paul Rauch secretly at the helm when Nicole went from 40-year-old Maeve McGuire to 23-year-old Jayne Bentzen?

Amusing side chat about AW's Russell Todd in this thread

Donald May was long gone from EON when I started watching. Unfortunately, he was hired on TEXAS...what a bland and boring actor.

I did love me some Ann Flood though. She was supposed to be like the Mary Matthew/Bert Bauer/Nancy Hughes, but she was so much cooler.

EON had great actors, I was an AW fan but watched from time to time. Of course we had many greats from EON move to Bay City after its cancellation. Loved seeing, Terry Davis, (Stacey) Sharon Gabet (Brittany) and Maeve McGuire (Elena). Always thought Larkin Malloy would have been right for Bay City. I could have seen him as Grant Harrison

I was looking for info on the guy who played Tonio on ATWT and was shocked that the one thing about him on Google was from the DL!

EON was at it's best when the character of Nicole was introduced. She was accused of the murder of the best psycho daytime ever had, Stephanie Martin. Everybody in town had a motive to kill that bitch, but Nicole was arrested, and Adam Drake was her attorney. My favorite daytime story ever.

No surprise EON did mysteries best.

On Edge I loved the story of Draper Scott’s train crash and he ends up at the farmhouse with that crazy girl and her even crazier caretaker/maid.

Sharkey made me moist......down there. Until he cheated and we divorced.

You heaux don't know from Gothic......

Mrs Renfield smelled funny “down there”.

gotta love that bundt cake mold hairdo

Collen Zenk and Mark Pinter's son has died. Saw it on a Facebook soap group.

Oops, Colleen.

Here's a better source:

Obituary with pic:

Very, very sad. Colleen has been through hell in recent years.

So...was Mark wearing a piece all these years?

R217 Huh? The picture at R215 is of the son.

I just got a glimpse at the mentally ill person who posts bizarre things here and it is disgusting. How are they still posting?

You mean Spicen, r219?

Serial Nutcase is truly demented. His family had him committed for 60 days last year. It wasn’t enough.

Which one is Serial?

R220 I believe so. Just saw my ignored list and he/they are just mentally damaged. It's the same one that goes on and on about Eileen Fulton clogging the toilet.

I got that that that is the son. But it looks like he got the baldness gene from his dad, based on his dad's latest picture. So I was just wondering if Mark had also gone prematurely bald and worn a piece.

Mark wore a piece when he was on GL.

The day James returned.

"Hello, Barbara."

The GL promo at 22:00 of that clip is hysterical.

Oh....I loved this era of ATWT.

DL fave jen landon is in a new corona ad

Jennifer Landon is a goddess!

Jen L is a lez.

Jen Landon, the Brenda Vaccaro of the aughts? Sure, if you say so.

SOD has a feature article in the new issue about characters that never fit in.....alas it just covered the existing shows.

Which character do you think just never fit in from our fine Midwestern towns? No long lists, just name one or two, please.

I'll start:

GL's Tangie Hill. Shapeless character, ill conceived, wedged onto a canvas that didn't need her.

That horrible character played by ultra-hammy "actor" Tom Pelphrey on ATWT. Just never fit in, as well as those ridiculous Z Twins.

Jeffrey O'Neill on GL!

Never belonged on the show. Was ill conceived. Took away precious screen time from so many vets while John Conboy inexplicably had the show revolving around him.

Bradley Cole must have given Conboy some GREAT blow jobs. Or did Cole bottom for Conboy?

*tiptoes in*

*whispers* Carmen Duncan's Iris on AW

*runs*

The retooled, romantic leading man edition of Carl Hutchins.

I loved Carmen Duncan. But I came late to Bay City, and she was my only Iris.

Iris was the only character I ever saw smoke on a soap, btw (in her LR, while talking to a painting of "Daddy" hanging above her mantle).

Iris smoked?? I don't remember that

It was one scene, one day. Never to be repeated. She was wearing one of her white brocaded skirt suits with blue/green and gold trim IIRC.

McKinsey. That annoying voice of hers!!!!!! Bad actress.

Duncan McKechnie never fit into Oakdale. Marland should have left him and his stupid castle and his homely daughter in Scotland.

The entire McColl family on ATWT.

I recall the scene of Iris smoking. It was a one time only thing as r239. As I recall, it was shortly after getting news that Mac had died.

r237 Smoking wasn't that unusual on soaps in the 70s. Or even early 80s. Edge of Night had several characters that would periodically smoke. Sky Whitney. Tony Saxon. Deborah Saxon. Johnny Dallas.

Smoking was fairly infrequent on soaps by the late 80s, but there were still a few smoking characters. The most prominent one would be Gus Aituro on GL, His character was a smoker throughout his run, although you didn't see him in the act of smoking very often. Generally it was just talking about it.

Also Carly Tenney was a smoker when she first came to Oakdale. Dinah Marler (as played by Wendy Moniz) was a smoker when she first returned to Springfield.

Days and GH had some characters who smoked. Jack Wagner's character of Nick Marone smoked often on B&B.

[quote]Also Carly Tenney was a smoker when she first came to Oakdale.

I don't remember that. I think I was there for most of early Carly, but I don't remember her smoking. It doesn't surprise me, though. Smoking equaled villainess or whore the way opera indicated a male villain.

Carly famously threw a cigarette butt into Snyder Pond.

[quote]Carly famously threw a cigarette butt into Snyder Pond.

Oh, Dear God in Heaven. Who was there?

The Carly-cigarette scene was the reveal that Carly wasn't the loving sister-cousin of Rosanna that she had appeared to be up until that point. Cigarette-smoking on soaps in the last 20+ years has been a somewhat lazy way of telling the audience, "This is the villain."

Carly didn't need no damned cigarette to proclaim her cuntiness. She wore her villainy in her every look, her every Janet Leigh-inflected utterance. She WAS Carly the Cunt.

Didn't Liz smoke on GH when she first appeared as well?

[quote]Didn't Liz smoke on GH when she first appeared as well?

Is that the Maura West character?

When GL went into the Sonni/Solita storyline on GL you could always tell when Sonni became Solita. She would light up a cigarette.

R234 Amen.

I'd add a lot of late GL characters who just ate the show for months/years at a time.

Gus only ever worked as a character with Harley - he was sutured to the show and the Spauldings and none of it ever really worked.

Ava was another sudden character where the show and history was rearranged for her, no one liked her, and then the bitch died.

Constrasting that with the Nancy Curlee era, where every character seemed to have a purpose, or the Pam Long era of GL, where the boring ones that didn't fit (Johnny Bauer, Rose, Samantha Marler) were mostly back burnered, as they should have been.

The Samantha Marler character should have worked. She was Phillip's half sister. Problem was the show didn't integrate her into the cast of younger characters. She should have been friendly with Harley and Alan-Michael, who were of a similar age. Instead they paired her with Dylan and then isolated those two characters.

R253 what show were you watching? Samantha was friends with Harley and A/M as well as being involved with Dylan.

R254 I didn't say that Samantha never shared any scenes with Harley and A-M. But there wasn't a grouping of the teen characters in 89-90 like there was of the Four Musketeers in 83-84.

Samantha was always backburned. Always seemed to be an afterthought. Functioned primarily as Dylan's girlfriend. Only plotline for her was being paralyzed. As I recalled, she was injured in the Keys while there with Dylan, Reva and Josh. Seems like she jumped out of the car when Reva started going crazy with all the "I'm coming Bud" stuff. Or something like that.

R251, a friend of mine played a British theater director on GL and got to utter this incredible line to Sonni/Solita:

“You may very well have been the best English-speaking actress in Venezuela-before all the men and the cigarettes.”

Damn, I wish he’d saved that scene on VHS.

Vicky smoked on AW but only, I think, when she was played by Ellen Wheeler.

I'm coming Bud.

I'm coming Bud.

On AW when Felicia Gallant's alcholism was at its worst, she smoked cigarettes a few times on screen. Seems like she passed out with a lit cigarette and started a minor fire.

Samantha and Dylan were kind of replacements for GL's original attempt to mimic the Four Musketeers, which was Alan-Michael (the Phillip copy), Cameron (who even had wavy hair like Rick), Harley, and Dinah Marler - back when Dinah was a bit of a simp, and Harley was the heavy lidded bad girl who shat out a kid in the back seat of a car.

Cam and Dinah left the show, and that was around the time both Samantha and Dylan were brought on.

LOL, the Sonni and Solita conversation reminded me of this blog post & had to search for it.

"For a while, Sonni looked like she might not be Sonni, but instead her evil twin sister Solita. We knew Solita was bad because she smoked clove cigarettes and danced in nightclubs to Siouxsie and the Banshees’ “Peek-a-Boo.”

Does Joe Breen have the aids?I Ick!

So many good points here

I did like Carmen Duncan as an actress but I never really considered her to be Iris. I just thought of her as a somewhat new character but I think that she acted what the writers wrote. Iris as a business woman ? I think not. And very poorly chosen romantic partners. Lukas was such a dud and a bore (even with Felicia) I would have loved to see what Lara Parker (Angelique / Dark Shadows) could have done with the part of Daddy's little girl...

I have no doubts that Duncan was talented and she had chemistry with a few select people, but I didn't think she fit as Iris, nor fit into the larger canvas.

The space that McKinsey's Iris took up was quite specific, and that character was legendary in many ways. Those were just very big shoes to fill and even setting the accent aside, Duncan just had a completely different type of energy. Someone like Jane Elliot, Colleen Zenk or even Kate Collins could have played the facets of Iris well. But I just really felt like Duncan's portrayal never fit.

Tom Hughes smoked on ATWT up until the late Eighties. When Tom (as played by Greg Marx) cheated with Barbara, Margo knew something was wrong right away, because she came home and found him passed out next to an ashtray full of cigarette butts.

Katherine Chancellor smoked a lot on Y&R into the early Eighties.

I agree with you R235 but, respectfully, not with your choices of actresses to play Iris. As much as I could appreciate Jane Elliott or Kate Collins in their roles I certainly do not think they could've played Iris as McKinsey played her. Iris was so much more than just your average mean controlling bitch. You could hate her at the start of a scene and cry with her by the end of it. She commanded every single scene she was in and never played second fiddle to anyone. I don't see a Collins or a Zenk in that same category. Maybe Elliott as I'm not as familiar with her acting range. I always thought humorless mean bitch nothing more nothing less...

I've started watching Dark Shadows (1968). Lots of people are smoking.

R268 You may be right but I was more saying in general that those actresses were at least a bit more in the neighborhood of the kind of character Iris was, the venomous schemer calling out for Daddy. Elliot is oft remembered for her toughness but Tracy Q is very much in the Iris vein, loving and yet scheming against Daddy.

I am Team Beverlee and always will be, because she was so masterful at her work. It was hard to replace her in both her roles. GL did it a little better (at first, until both writers and performer went off the rails) but both shows struggled to replace her unique gifts.

Tracy Quartermaine and Iris had some similarities but Iris had a vulnerability that Tracy never really had IMO. Although Elliot could have brought that out.

Robin Strasser was available in 1988, it would have been amazing to see her as a recast Iris playing against a recast Rachel, the role she created. And the triangle aspect of the Iris/Mac/Rachel relationship would have been blatantly obvious. Although Wyndham and Strasser probably would have hated each other.

[quote]Robin Strasser was available in 1988, it would have been amazing to see her as a recast Iris playing against a recast Rachel

Amazingly awful.

Are you the Drew Dixon Douche?

I get why Duncan was cast as Iris-they were going for a Joan Collins/Alexis vibe at the time. But Iris was nothing like Alexis.

[quote]Although Wyndham and Strasser probably would have hated each other.

Yes, VW didn’t suffer divas gladly.

Just throwing out names here ... what about Judith Barcroft or Louise Shaffer as nu-Iris?

Robin Strasser was good at what she did, but she in no way could have ever replaced La Bev as Iris. She would have been as bad as Marj Dusay by the end!

Of any of the names mentioned so far, Jane Elliot was the one most likely to do justice to Iris, especially getting all the nuances of Iris's devotion to Mac and desperate need for his attention.

I think Marla Adams could have done a great job as Iris too. She could do nuance very well. An exceptionally capable actress.

I agree that Carmen Duncan wasn't Iris, but she did a noble job at it. I actually came to like her a lot. But as someone said above, I sort of viewed her as a new character rather than one I'd previously adored.

It didn't help that the writers gave Carmen very un-Iris like things to do -- Iris the businesswoman? Iris sleeping with Evan Bates? Iris routinely going to visit a sick and poor Tommy Kent in the hospital as he was dying? Iris later taking up with Tommy Kent's father Hank after Tommy died? Iris performing crimes that were serious enough to sent her to jail?

JAIL?!?!? Iris going to jail?!?!?!?!??! That's just so unlike Iris. I hate to think that's where a beloved character was sent to rot. Talk about character assassination. And why send her to jail? Why not just writer her off by sending her to the Riviera to visit her society friends?

And as for the Tommy Kent plotline, I realize that it was to humanize Iris by showing her caring for someone so bad off. That was all nice and did soften the character. But this is Iris! She wouldn't have cared about someone so far below her social status. Even if he was a 10 year old. OK, maybe a poor kid, she might have taken shine to. I'll give you that much. But she most definitely would not have taken up with his father afterward. Hank Kent was construction worker or something like that. A construction worker?

And for that matter, Iris would not have gotten into an ongoing sexual relationship with Janice Frame's son! Although granted, she didn't know he was Janice Frame's son at the time. She might have slept with him once, but not repeated times.

I think Anna Stuart could have played Iris were she not already employed on the show. Her Donna was more Iris-like than Carmen Duncan’s Iris.

I am so glad thatMcBitchKubty croaked off!!!!!

R278 Very good point.

Strasser replacing McKinsey would have been weird, and I doubt Strasser would have returned considering her history with the show and the comments Wyndham and Lemay made about her version of Rachel in the years after she left.

R277 Also good points. She was very definitely reconfigured as an Alexis-type - the height of irony since DYNASTY's Alexis Carrington was indeed modeled on McKinsey's Iris.

All great points here made about Iris. You guys know your Bay City stuff ! I also agree that sending the character to jail was very cruel and showed how the writers had no clues about how important the character was to viewers. Someone mentioned Lara Parker as a replacement. I must say that I am sort of intrigued by the possibility. Parker showed how devious she could play the part of Angelique yet viewers still loved to watch her. She could certainly had made an impact in Bay City (and brought her own fans to the show). I could see her going up against Wyndham's Rachel or see her as mac's daughter, maybe more so that Carmen Duncan....

Who would have been a better recast for Alexandra at GL?

And for that matter, a better Alan recast?

Hard to top Chris Bernau and La Bev.

Dyan Cannon - yes they could have gotten her - would have been divine as Alexandra.

Bernau with that voice, hard to think of anyone better. Larry Linville had that snippy disdain down, but he was not sexy,

R259, is it me or was the car supposed to hit the water half off-camera?

I think Judith McConnell from Santa Barbara would have been a great Alexandra.

Bev herself suggested Daniel Davis for Alan, and I agree, he would have captured some of that same energy.

Davis was a reportedly a nightmare behind the scenes on Texas. Bev was the only one that liked him. They certainly did some great work together on Texas, I think he would have worked as Alan.

I thought this was going to be a thread about marvelous midwestern towns, but it's just a bunch of soap opera gossip. Why not label it that way?

I see Cecile is back again.

Serial asshole nutcase ruins every thread. Always. #psycho

Miss R287, it is your special day!

You now have THAT thread!

Thanks, R290

r291 Now go and post something, darling. Don't let r290 have wasted his time.

Already did, R292. (Maybe i'll post something there about soaps, as well.)

R285, Judith McConnell is the first person I thought of, too! She would have made a really good Alexandra.

I wouldn't have brought her back; any of these great dames -- McConnell, Elliot, etc. -- bring 'em on, just not as Alex.

R292 I love you so.

I don't know who you are, r296, but I love you, too....pussycat?

[quote] Davis was a reportedly a nightmare behind the scenes on Texas. Bev was the only one that liked him. They certainly did some great work together on Texas.

One wonders what he was like to work with on The Nanny.

McKunty was hated on Texas.

Judith Chapman would have made a very interesting Alexandra if she’d been the right age.

What about Louise Shaffer as Alex? She was in the correct age range and she won an Emmy for Ryan’s Hope, and she was praised for her work on Edge of Night.

Louise Shaffer didn’t look aristocratic enough for Alex, she looked like a drunken harridan.

Why not Liz Hubbard as Alexandra? ATWT didn’t have much use for her after Marland died. Alexandra was part Althea and part Lucinda, think about Liz.

That was actually suggested at one point, R303, especially right before she left ATWT for that year. But I think she was too identified with Lucinda.

And I'd respectfully disagree on the comparison. Alexandra was very much a steel magnolia, subtle but powerful, yet able to let the mask down and be vulnerable.

Lucinda came on like a Mack truck. I loved her for that, but I think a lot of that was Hubbard and I don't know that she could do the quiet rage. Anna Stuart was mentioned above and I agree, she had the more precise sort of duality that Alex needed.

"Lucinda came on like a Mack truck. I loved her for that, but I think a lot of that was Hubbard and I don't know that she could do the quiet rage."

She did plenty of quiet rage on The Doctors.

I've seen a lot of the early episodes. She was somewhat more subdued but still very forward.

I don’t think that’s fair to Hubbard. She played Lucinda broadly, because that was how she interprested the character. Alex was a different beast and she would have played the role accordingly. Hubbard was no slouch. Anna Stuart would have been much too young for the part.

Hubbard could never say a line without flubbing the words.

I remember when Bev left there was a list in Weekly of a dozen names. I think it was a response to her interview with Miss Michael Logan where she said "I can think of a dozen women who could play her."

Marj was on it. So was Judith McConnell and if I remember right, Robin Strasser (who I think they had preliminary conversations with).

Wish the Weeklys were available in a database somewhere. Would love to be able to look that up.

Leslie Jones on SNL is like a black Liz Hubbard. Always fucks up her lines.

Helen Wagner once sent my mom who was a huge fan - a recipe for zucchini bread. She also sent a cast photo from 1966 or so. My mother adored Nancy Hughes and kind of acted like her. She was always skeptical of our friends and had to sniff them out before she'd say yay or nay.

[quote]Louise Shaffer didn’t look aristocratic enough for Alex, she looked like a drunken harridan.

I have to agree. I loved Louise Shaffer. But she in no way could have done the role of Alex any justice. She would have been horrible in the role.

Speaking of Anna Stuart as Iris led me to the one person who I think could have done it: Maeve Kincaid.

Well, Vanessa was a rip-off character of Iris, wasn’t she? A combo of Iris and Erica Kane.

Or you could if they'd never de clawed Vanessa we would never have needed Alexandra.

Vanessa was more Iris than Alex, to be sure. But original Vanessa was just much more fun. And her attachment to Daddy wasn't nearly as twisted as Iris and Mac.

I never realized how awful Vanessa was under Pam Long until I started re-watching the Marland years.

Vanessa was as business savvy as Alexandra early on. They started to dumb her down when Quint was revealed to be her half brother because the Nola/Quint pairing was so popular and Vanessa became their foil. Maeve Kinkead expressed in a TV Guide article that she was distressed at the writers making Vanessa 'less capable' and then the show brought on Reva and Alexandra who together were a combo of what Vanessa had been. It's a tribute to Kinkead that despite Vanessa being so nasty the audience loved her.

I don't think Vanessa was necessarily dumbed down during the Nola/Quint years, though she was a bit broader at that time.

But she was certainly dumbed down to be stuck in with the Lewises. I loved a lot of Pam Long's stuff but she repeated the upper-class woman gets knocked down a peg by a man story - with Vanessa and Billy, and then with Alex and HB (and if I remember right, Alex and Hawk, too. HB one understands, as he was charming, but as if Alex would ever even have spoken to Hawk Shayne, vile as he was.)

I just loved loved loved Maeve Kincaid....but as Angie Perrini on Another World. I thought she was the most beautiful woman in Bay City.

Indeed.

Between Maeve and Leonre Kasdorf and Mary Kay Adams and Hilary Edson and McKinsey and Michelle Forbes, I think GL had the most interesting and sophisticated women.

R321 I'd agree with you, though Edson was so bland in her role. But yes to the others.

I'd add Maureen Garrett, too.

In the later years, the two actresses that I thought really had the old GL magic were Wendy Moniz (Dinah) and Tammy Blanchard, who just bloomed beautifully as Drew and went on to bigger and better things (Emmy and Tony included).

Is it Wendy Moniz or Beth Ehlers who had the affair with Kurt McKinney that almost busted his marriage to his childhood sweetheart?

Wendy cheated with Frank Grillo; both were married to others. Ehlers cheated with Rob Bogue. I can't recall if Ehlers ever married Mark Derwin?

Ehlers fell in love with both Mallets, and the fling she had with Bogue (rumored to be enormously hung) broke up both their marriages. She also supposedly had a hot and heavy fling with Cynthia Watros.

She is mentioned (not by name but easy to read between lines) as a general dark cloud and unpleasant person in Kimmy Zimmy's book.

not only Zimmer's book but also JR Martinez' memoir and the Bill Bell bio referred to two actors on another show (not a Bell show) that couldn't be paired together after their real life affair went belly up.

R322, yes, I agree on adding Garrett; Hillary was at times stunning; she was actually an extra at the Four Muskateers' prom

Other times, not as much.

And yet Ehlers was magic on screen. Sometimes people are transformed by the camera.

Damn, this era was so fucking fantastic.

I'm worried about John Wesley Shipp. He's booked at every fan event on the globe. Is he in financial straits? I'm willing to start a GoFundMe. Or, you know, comfort him.

Brian Bloom.

*sigh*

he might need the money; Dawson's was on The WB, probably didn't pay a ton; but the good news is that JWS is so friendly that whoever plops down a few bucks to meet him is going to get a great experience.

Miss Shipp is a little long in the tooth. And short in other ways.

Is this where we can discuss Love is a Many Splendored Thing and Secret Storm?

Does JWS have hairy legs? If so, he should call Ron over at Days.

r334 This thread is for P&G soaps, primarily. But other soaps do get discussed on this thread from time to time. If you want to start talking about Splendid Thing and Secret Storm, that's fine. If you get enough people responding, then start a separate thread.

JWS is fine. He sends his love. (And he is married to a guy with a nice salary, so...)

JWS misses Doug Marland’s toes.

Splendored Thing was set in San Francisco. Should not be discussed here.

Why was Mary Stuart such a cunt?

Because it was just her nature to be a miserable old bitch. Not a happyy person.

Mary was fine as long as she felt secure and respected. It was when she didn't feel secure and respected was when you had to watch the fuck out. She sort of mellowed towards the end, but she was hell-fire late 60s into the 70s. She was constantly fighting with writers. And the poor Pattys. For some reason she was fine when it became the Travis and Liza show and didn't complain too much. But she was passive aggressive and was a minefield to deal with. Roy Winsor told her in the beginning it was her show and she was the star and she carried that with her. Poor Anne Marcus.

Karma got Mary in the end. Crusty old beyatttch.

And on GL she was just a day player, never contract.

R337 Really? He stopped in here once and was scared off almost immediately. He's a very sweet, kind man.

LOL - she was not FINE with Travis and Liza stealing the spotlight. She liked Rod Arrants and wondered why he wasn't HER leading man. They paired her with John Anniston instead - and though they were about the same age, viewers wrote in that Jo should not be with a much younger man(!). The old lady hairstyle and Hepburn like pantsuits didn't help.

Some people loved Mary, others hated her, and at least one of her kids was estranged from her when she died.

There was a novel from the 1980s, The Soap Opera Slaughters. The main female character had more than a little of Helen Gallagher and Mary Stuart.

I wish someone tech savvy here would download Eight Years in Another World, preferably in chunks over a period of time so us eldergays who actually had the privilege of watching AW during its Golden Era could comment.

You know you can get it on Kindle now, r349.

R349 What R350 said. I bought the Kindle edition. It's relatively low priced and has a new epilogue.

I'm happy to post a segment or two here or there but I have neither interest nor patience to post the entire book.

Miss Nelson Aspen LOVES her some Mary.

Miss Aspen is a MESS! Total queeny cunt. I would never go see a show of Miss Queeny AssPen! Ugh!!!! Mary Stuart was a true cunt. A miserable old fuck. Larry Haines, on the other hand, was a true sweetheart.

Mary loathed Agnes Nixon and had her fired from Search. Mary saw Agnes' first script and immediately went to Roy. In those days Roy would do whatever Mary wanted. The housewives adored her and Jo's struggles.

I know it’s on Kindle. I don’t have Kindle. And I just thought it would be fun to have chunks of it put on here and those of us who actually watched it could chime in with our own memories.

R355, you don't need a kindle device; a Kindle app on an iphone would work fine.

give Harding the money! the guy deserves it for giving us Iris Carrington (the model for Alexis Morel Carrington!)

I love Harding's writing style in his memoir; he gives tons of information in a sentence and it could end, but it doesn't, instead he gives the reader one more bit of info or viewpoint in some final words added on at the end.

R355. just buy the book from Amazon. Why would you try to cheat an old man out of some book royalties?

Thanks, R356, I wasn’t aware of that. OK, I’ll buy it, then. I read it when it first came out and look forward to reading the updated epilogue.

Nola McCord’s pussy: Did it stink? Well, did it????

If you give me an email address to contact you at, r359, I'll sell you my book for less than you'd buy it on Amazon. But a Kindle might be cheaper. And it will change your life in a meaningful way (given that you were around to watch AW then).

One does not need a Kindle device, only the app itself. I have the app on an iPad, iPhone and I also have a Kindle app on my desktop computer, so I can read it on any of those. Not a fan of reading on a phone (too little) but I've copied and pasted from my desktop computer Kindle to here. Like.....

The fans recognized new names among the writers’ credits and assaulted me with letters demanding happiness for their favorite characters. Not very long after my name first appeared on the screen as headwriter, a large envelope was delivered by messenger to our apartment. It was from the advertising agency and contained dozens of fan letters. I glanced at them, noting that most of them were addressed to all four writers, then handed them to Dorothy at the breakfast table and went into my study to start work on that day’s script. A moment later, maniacal laughter from the kitchen drew me back to find out what prompted it. “Listen to this,” Dorothy gasped through her laughter. “Dear Mr. Lemay, Mr. Cenedella, Mr. Newman and Miss Callaway,” she read. “When are you going to let Steve and Alice get married? Three times Steve and Alice have been engaged. Three times you writers have broken off their engagement, and three times I have bought a dress to wear at their wedding.” Dorothy handed the letter to me, still laughing. I took them all into the study and read them straight through, racing through misspellings, bad grammar, and mangled syntax, discovering how little I knew about the audience for which I was writing. What sort of person wrote such a letter? Was there really someone waiting in a lonely living room in a dress bought especially for the occasion, for two invented lovers to be married on a television program? When did those I thought of as an audience composed of people more or less like ourselves and our friends, become addicts as that woman had apparently become and as were several dozen others whose letters I read that morning?

(Had to laugh - I opened my Kindle and it went right to Eight Years.)

Thanks for the excerpt, R362. I installed the Kindle app but for some reason when I went to Amazon it says I can’t download the book to my iPad. I was only able to download a sample. Any suggestions? I don’t want to buy the hard copy.

Hm, you should be able to download the entire book to the app.

It doesn't download it onto the "desktop" of your iPad. It's in your Kindle app library.

try buying it on Amazon on your laptop and then see if it appears on your phone. I can't buy books for some reason directly off my phone, but when I buy them off my laptop I can access them on my phone.

what I love about Eight Years in Another World is that when Harding wants to tell a juicy story but doesn't want to name the actor he just leaves it out; and then other times he'll name the actor by name.

ORD, imagine if that woman was a fan of Lisa (insert last name here). She bought a new gown for *every* wedding ...

R367 She would have gone bankrupt!

I’m sure you’ll all be relieved to know that although for some reason I couldn’t buy the book via the Amazon app I was able to do it via the website. Thanks for your input! Skipping straight to the epilogue...

Lenay is a miserable old fuck. I take his book with a grain of salt. His perspective only. There are 2 sides to every story.

Oh, and what is your side of the story, Spicen?

I'm not R370 and I"m not Spicen.

The only thing I kinda disagreed with Lemay on was Jacquie Courntey. He said that Harney was the better actress (noting that there was a difference between actors and stars and Courtney was a star and that she helped OLTL in the ratings).

I thought Courtney was plenty good as an actress; in fact, a big mistake AW made in 1989 was no keeping her when she came back for the anniversary.

He didn't like Courtney's acting and thought Harney was better, but he was prepared to write for her. JC got bitchy when Lemay wanted to pair her with Willis and she didn't want to play that and left. The first hot Willis, not Leon Russom.

the first hot Willis was on fire; sexy bad boy; audience loved him; Harding wrote that he lost his job not because of his acting.

If I'm EVER lucky enough to land something great I'm not going to piss it away by saying I won't do this and I won't do that.

AW had a brief return to glory for the AW 25th anniversary Cory Publishing party: Alice, Pat, Russ, Aunt Liz, Gwen, Robert, Dennis, Nancy all back as were Steve and Janice as ghosts.

Ironically, no Mac as Doug Watson had just died.

I wish Douglas Marland had come over to AW circa 1992; he would have done wonders there. I imagine him rejuvenating the Matthews clan, setting up a new Rachel/Alice rivalry, bringing on 'have nots' and Rachel would have gone to jail if it meant keeping Amanda out of prison for a murder she committed.

[quote]JC got bitchy when Lemay wanted to pair her with Willis and she didn't want to play that and left. The first hot Willis, not Leon Russom

That's not exactly how it happened. Show fired George Reinholt and Lemay started dropping hints of a Alice-Willis pairing. Jacqueline Courtney expressed displeasure at the idea of Alice falling for her husband's brother so soon after Steven's death. Then she left for a two month vacation, while Alice was sent off to Chadwell for the summer. When Jacqueline returned from vacation, Paul Rauch told her they had decided to go ahead with the Alice-Willis pairing and that she would not be playing the part. She didn't quit, she was fired.

John "Jerry" Fitzpatrick was sex on a stick. Fantastic actor. I don't know what behavioral problems he was having on the set that caused him to be fired, but firing actors was Rauch's favorite was of maintaining discipline on the show at that point (he'd fired George Reinholt rather than try to tame his diva tantrums).

Leon Russom was a poor replacement for Willis. Russom captured none of the vulnerability and scheming and charm that Fitzpatrick infused Willis with. Willis could have become a powerful leading man if they'd kept Fitzpatrick in the role. Instead Willis became a dull afterthought in the inept hands of Leon Russom

To further explain Lemay's story about Alice/Willis in the book.....

That pairing wasnt supposed to immediately happen, because the audience still loved Steve and Alice. The story with Alice adopting Sally was supposed to keep her busy for a year or more until the time came to move those characters into each other's orbit. JC objected to that and lwas eevntually fired by Rauchie.

"A story was required to carry her through and beyond her mourning, and it was found in her adoption of a little girl who survived an automobile accident which killed both her parents. The orphan was played by an unusually responsive child actress, Cathy Greene, whose long blonde hair and blue eyes made her a miniature double of the grief-stricken nurse who cared for her. Little Sally, whose history was vague because her parents could not be identified, brought Alice through the worst of her sorrow, as Alice eased the terrors of the grieving child. Meanwhile, Mac and Rachel Cory had hired a housekeeper, who, unknown to all but the writer, was Sally’s grandmother, a mystery which gathered momentum and carried Alice into a major story for the summer months. But the producer, provoked by Jacquie Courtney’s obdurate resistance to a projected story line, fired her, with my heartfelt approval. Six months after starting the longer format, we lost a third major character as well. Susan Sullivan’s contract expired, and Lenore was sent away with her son, the character to a happier life in Washington, the actress to a more rewarding career in nighttime television. We could not lose both leading ladies so we had to recast Alice and develop the story Miss Courtney refused to play. Willis was eventually to take over not only his brother’s corporation but his widow as well. That would bring Alice into the center of a new triangular romance, for demure Angie Perrini loved Willis. Firing Miss Courtney ignited more fan magazine headlines when she leaped to her telephone to give her version of the incident before Paul issued an official announcement to editors. She wrote, or had written for her, a statement to her fans explaining she could not play Alice any longer because the projected story betrayed the character her fans had loved since they first watched her on the show as a teenager. She knew Alice better than the writer and producer who had tried to force an unpalatable story upon her."

this is an example of Lemay's writing style; this sentence could end three times before it ultimatley does.

Susan Sullivan’s contract expired, and Lenore was sent away with her son, the character to a happier life in Washington, the actress to a more rewarding career in nighttime television.

The reveal of Beatrice being Sally's grandmother was fantastic.

Mac and Rachel's new housekeeper, Beatrice Gordon, kept talking about trying to find her missing daughter Jenny. Meanwhile, Alice took in 10-year-old Sally, whose parents, Janet and Peter, had been killed in the car crash that brought Sally to Bay City Hospital and into Alice's life. There appeared to be no connection between these two storylines. No hints were ever dropped.

One day, Rachel sent Beatrice to Alice's house to deliver a package. Sally answered the door and Beatrice, upon seeing Sally, dropped the package and cried, "Jenny." Fade to black. End of episode. What a Friday cliffhanger!

I have a Harding Lemay bias. I love the man. But as someone said above, there are two sides to every story. I'm trying to figure out what JC could have had against this story. This was in the old days of soaps, where stories unfolded over years so I don't think this was something that Lemay planned to rush into. It sounds to me like Alice was still front and center in story, so what could have been her problem?

Lemay pretty says the same thing about Dwyer, that she didn't want to play his new direction for Mary. So Lemay just worked around her and gave everything to Liz, then eventually killed Mary off.

Maybe someone who isn't as sympathetic to Lemay can help me understand why JC might have objected to this story.

r379 Jacqueline Courntey was half of the super-couple that propelled AW to the top of the ratings. She was the top billed actress on the show. Suddenly, they fire her leading man, the second billed actor in the credits.

Jacqueline was bound to fell uneasy about her future, protective of her character, after Reinholt was fired. Who was Alice without Steve? She had no idea and neither did the audience?

I wonder how much diva-esque behavior JC displayed on the set. That may have factored into her firing. I also have no idea how much resistance she put up to the idea of a Willis-Alice pairing. Actors don't usually have any say in the storylines they are given, but some of the top billed actors can influence storylines. Susan Lucci had some of Erica's pairings squashed over the years, Maurice Benard has done the same.

Harding Lemay was adamant that he never liked JC so he would have been glad to to use any excuse to get rid of her. Apparently Paul Rauch felt similarly since he had her fired from OLTL in 1983 just before he came onboard as EP.

I suspect that Lemay and Rauch used the fact she did express her initial distaste for the storyline as an excuse to get rid of her.

I also suspect that if they'd kept her, she would have been fine with the storyline once she saw how it was playing out. And if she had stayed, AW might still be on the air today.

George was fired for a good reason. He was getting angrier and angrier, holding up the production, and speaking out against the production by writing to the magazines. He was basically shooting himself in the foot. There is no way in hell that Rauch fired George or Courtney without PG and NBC signing off on it. Rauch was vindicated when they had to fire him from OLTL for the same behavior. Why would she have felt uneasy, they were offering her continued front burner story with a hot new love interest.

Was Reinholt fired from OLTL? Or did they just not renew his contract when it ended after two years? Either way, yes, he continued his diva tantrums on OLTL. So, yes, Rauch's decision was ultimately vindicated since no other show hired him after OLTL.

As for Courntey feeling uneasy, all actors are uneasy when they are moved out of a successful pairing. Especially if they've been the face of the show, as she was at that point, and at the top of the fan polls. She had no idea how the fans would respond to a new pairing. You can't fault her for feeling apprehensive.

At the same time, she wouldn't have felt safe enough to voice that apprehension if she hadn't also been the top billed actor on the show. I sincerely doubt that David Bailey or Beverly Penberthy felt secure enough to ever voice concerns about a storyline.

[quote]Leon Russom was a poor replacement for Willis. Russom captured none of the vulnerability and scheming and charm that Fitzpatrick infused Willis with.

I think Russom was a better actor than Fitzpatrick, but yes, he was all wrong for the part. Fitzpatrick had that sexy bad boy thing down pat and Russom ... well, there was no sex appeal and no lightness to his performance. He did work well with Dorothy Lyman's Gwen, though. Fitzpatrick and Lyman together would never have been believable.

After ALL of these years I think the truth of the firing of Dwyer, Reinholt ad Courtney was MONEY. The show went to an an hour - advertisers were ok at first, after successful hour airings of the show, but the budget got out of hand. Rachel and Mac were now the popular, root for couple. It was a bold move to can Jacquie and George but economically what they saved on those salaries helped preserve the budget and Rauch's insatiable desire to hire theater talent who wouldn't come cheap. The stories of diva behavior were true with Reinholt and Lemay just hated Dwyer and Courtney because he felt they were low class actors - Dwyer being a radio soap heroine and Courtney a Jersey girl teen actress.

I'd think Lemay (and Rauch) would have been happy to blame the budget, it would have saved them a lot of grief.

And AW was making money hand over fist in those days.

After I started kindergarten in the 1950s, I did not watch a soap opera again until 1988, so I missed Lemay's AW (though I apparently caught his 1988 update, which would have been meaningless to me at the time). I've often wondered whether, if he'd been allowed to introduce a gay character the way he wanted, if I'd have somehow found my way to the show.

The show survived the firings of Reinholt and Courtney in the short run and stayed at the top of the ratings 1975-78. But I wonder how much that affected things in the long run. By 1979, AW was down to the middle of the ratings as Lemay was getting burned out and the ABC soaps were surging with great storytelling.

If Steve and Alice were still there in 1979, as played by Reinholt and Courtney, would that have kept the audience around? We'll never know. But if they'd still been there, the show could have married them, broken them up, married them again, broken them up again, etc. That's the stuff soaps are made of, the stuff the keeps audiences rooting for couples, keeps the ratings up. Look how many times Y&R has married and broken up Nicki and Victor. For that matter, how many times did AW break up Mac and Rachel only to get them back together again.?

[quote]Was Reinholt fired from OLTL? Or did they just not renew his contract when it ended after two years?

Nope, he was fired. And he went to the magazines about that one too. GR had demons. Lemay basically gave Steve his own (Lemay's) life as a backstory, Agnes really hadn't fleshed out Steve all that much, except he was a millionaire playboy who owned a football team and a construction company. I think GR may have felt threatened by Doug Watson and the fact that Lemay was breaking up the Rachel, Alice, Steve triangle.

I think JC just fucked up by leaving. She would have remained top billed and would have continued to get story. And you just know at some point they would have done Mac and Alice.

R388 are you too stupid to realize Courtney WAS fired?

R389 that was an over the top reaction for what has been a cordial thread.

Asshole Serial Nutcase always ruins every thread. He needs to be committed, again. 60 days of hospitalization for mental issues wasn’t long enough.

It's never a cordial thread when Lemay's apologists show up. The man was a drunk,, so drunk at a AW Christmas Party he pissed into a potted plant.

You clearly didn't go to college R392 if pissing into a potted plant is that big of a trigger for you.

AW started it's downward thread the day RealRachel (Robin Strasser) was replaced by that watered-down version, who never played another successful role.

[quote] I think GR may have felt threatened by Doug Watson and the fact that Lemay was breaking up the Rachel, Alice, Steve triangle.

Douglass Watson only joined the show on Aug 7, 1974. George Reinholt's last show was March 28, 1975. That's just 8 months. At that point, the show wasn't being built around Mac as the patriarch. Steve Frame was still the primary male star. So, Reinholt may have felt some personal jealously of Watson, but Mac becoming the primary male lead wasn't really playing out in the scripts at that point. For all Reinholt knew, Mac was just a temporary distraction from the Steve-Alice-Rachel triangle, just as Ted Clark had been when Rachel married him in 1971, or Elliot Carrington had been when Alice was working for him as Dennis' nurse.

Had Reinholt and Courtney stayed, I'm sure the triangle would have eventually evolved into a quadrangle with Mac becoming involved with Alice at some point while Rachel and Steve reunited for a time. That quadrangle could have propelled the show for years, even decades.

I don't know if Fitzpatrick was a better Willis since I only knew Russom's Willis. But you can be sure that I thought the actor was a GREAT Willis and yes found him to be very sexy and capable. So there. As for JC the first time I saw her in Bay City was when they revived the character and she came back as a butch doctor. And no I did not like her acting at all. As a matter of fact I found her to be not very photogenic and thought she was bland and had zero chemistry with everyone around her. With the advent of Youtube I did catch her acting in those "glorious' years of hers as Alice. I thought she was a very ordinary actress and was not as good as a Wyndham. a Sullivan, or a Dailey" So I can totally understand Lemay not enjoying writing for her. Furthermore, I found her reading her lines on cue cards very annoying or at least she was always looking somewhere else...

What happens to ATWT if Marland switches shows in 1992? Would he have dared Rachel & Carl? Would he have done it with more immediate hostility/suspicion/terror from the people of Bay City?

[quote]A story was required to carry her through and beyond her mourning, and it was found in her adoption of a little girl who survived an automobile accident which killed both her parents. The orphan was played by an unusually responsive child actress

[quote]We could not lose both leading ladies so we had to recast Alice and develop the story Miss Courtney refused to play. Willis was eventually to take over not only his brother’s corporation but his widow as well. That would bring Alice into the center of a new triangular romance, for demure Angie Perrini loved Willis.

Well, that played out on screen, but it happened much sooner than a year after Steven's death. Willis started making moves on Alice within a few months, of Susan Harney taking over the part. It all happened too quickly and didn't work. Plus, the Alice-Willis-Angie triangle was never developed to be much of anything in the long run.

Thing is, Susan Harney didn't have much chemistry with John Fitzpatrick's Willis. So, that storyline was ultimately dropped and they brought in Ted Shackelford to play Raymond Gordon and give Alice a new romance. They also brought in Ray's ex-wife Olive to be a foil in that relationship.

Meanwhile Jacqueline Courtney had nice chemistry with John Fitzpatrick. Had she stayed and Alice been given a full year to grieve the death of Steven before Willis started making moves on her, I think the Alice-Willis pairing might have worked.

[quote]As for JC the first time I saw her in Bay City was when they revived the character and she came back as a butch doctor. And no I did not like her acting at all. As a matter of fact I found her to be not very photogenic and thought she was bland and had zero chemistry with everyone around her.

Unfortunately, her return in 1984 was pretty much botched from the get go. They really had no idea what to do with her. Put her in a yawn-inducing relationship with Mark Singleton, which went absolutely no where. Alice wasn't even much of a mother to Sally who was in a sizzling hot romance with Catlin Ewing at that point. Alice and Sally didn't even have that many scenes together.

And a year later, when Jacqueline Courtney left, they didn't even do scenes writing Alice out. She just faded into the background and wasn't mentioned again for a long time.

And yes, the short haircut did make JC look butch and was incredibly unflattering.

They got rid of Courtney in 1985 because her salary was killing them. Again MONEY. They were trying to keep Mary Page Keller who was anxious to get to Hollywood, even though her bf Thomas Ian Griffith had to stick around for another year. Keller turned down a lot of money to leave.

Regardless of how it happened, Reinholt and Courtney were both from an old school style of soap acting. AW did that style well but things were changing, and not just at Lemay's direction.

Agnes Nixon was changing the boundaries and tone of soaps, especially after AMC premiered. The Doctors had really changed the tone - during the Rita Lakin years it had some really mutilayered characters and really naturalistic, progressive (for its day) stories.

AW was sort of inbetween established stalwarts like GL and ATWT and newer shows, so it was able to evolve and change. P&G wanted someone who wasn't the same old same old. If it hadn't been Lemay then the Dobsons might well have landed at AW (as they did at GL and ATWT) and they would have pushed for the same kind of change(s).

When JFP left AW and became EP at OLTL, she took Tim Gibbs and Kale Brown with her. Gibb's character of Gary Sinclair was recast with John Littlefield, while Brown's Michael Hudson was killed off (along with RKK's Shane).

Did their departures hurt the show?

I think Reinholt's hyper-masculine intensity was a change of pace from traditional male soap actors, R401, similar to Gerald Gordon's Nick Bellini. It may not have worked for the drawing room-style drama Lemay wrote, but I think it did represent a distinct break from P&G's past.

As for Gibbs and Brown(e) -- I don't think the show particularly suffered for either of their departures, though Gibbs was certainly a more dynamic presence than Littlefield. Michael's absence theoretically meant new storyline avenues for Donna, but aside from her too-brief relationship with Matt Cory, the writers completely squandered Anna Stuart's talent.

I never was particularly a fan of Michael Hudson. Kale Browne did a good enough job in the role, but he was far from being a favorite of mine.

While I could see a young Donna falling for Michael, I could never understand why Iris was interested in him. Michael was so far beneath Iris in social standing, she would have never considered him as a romantic partner, much less pursued him. The first on many un-Iris like things that they had Carmen Duncan's character doing.

That Iris-Donna rivalry for Michael always seemed like a forced plot point just to create Alexis-like antagonist between the two characters.

Michael Hudson's was one of my favorite soap opera funerals. It took place in the snow and the New York Gay Men's Chorus sang "No One Is Alone."

Anna Holbrook (Sharlene Frame) has a cameo in the second episode of the current season (4) of Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt on Netflix. She looked great, as if she hasn’t aged since AW ended.

I agree that Littlefield was miscast as Gary Sinclair. Gibbs had a quality about him that made the character much more exciting than what Littlefied could bring to the role. There was a lot of deadwood around that time in Bay City. Lots of very bland actors: Josie's replacement, the Burrell clan (Etta Mae and Toni) Gary's brother Cameron and Chris, Jake's "forced" friend and partner. The bright spots were the return of Ellen Wheeler as Marley (just loved her and the pairing with hottie black attorney) and Lisa Peluso (Lila) who played her best daytime role IMO. Had the show stayed on the air I'm sure she would have been a major character in future storylines

[quote]I think Reinholt's hyper-masculine intensity was a change of pace from traditional male soap actors,

That's it!!! Soap leads were all freshly scrubbed good guys. You had someone like Steve Frame who was a very sexual character. Nick Bellini too. These guys were fucking. They weren't looking for chaste walks in the park, they wanted to fuck. Even Bill Horton was a hot head who "took" what he wanted from his brother's wife. The NBC soap lineup back then was really pushing the bounds of what the other shows were doing.

Bob Hughes and the Bauer Bros weren't making panties wet, mainly because of Irna's rules about saints and sinners.

I had trouble with Ellen Wheeler's return. They made her crazy and made her lust after her rapist. Soaps ignore history all the time, but that was just too much.

[quote]Gibbs had a quality about him that made the character much more exciting than what Littlefied could bring to the role.

It was called sex appeal.

[quote]Lisa Peluso (Lila) played her best daytime role IMO. Had the show stayed on the air I'm sure she would have been a major character in future storylines

Lila was brought on specifically to alienate viewers. If P&G hadn't wanted to make viewers hate AW, the character would never have existed. Same with Bobby Shanerino and that Eterna-esque sci-fi mess.

Alienate viewers ? But I loved Lila and Lisa Peluso...She even said that it was her favorite daytime role. I do not get that she was alienating viewers...she was matched with 2 very popular characters: Matt and Cass. As for Bobby and RKK I did hate the character but to be fair I hated RKK as Sam so it was more the actor that I disliked than the roles he played.

Peluso’s pussy stunk! I wouldn’t go near it!!!!!!

I liked the Bobby Reno character. Thought it fit RKK well. Hated when they pulled the switch to make him Shane Roberts. And a doctor(!!!) at that. Apparently RKK hated it to.

Lila Roberts was a character from Michael Malone's rejected pilot for a FOX nighttime soap set in New Orleans ... retooled for AW when he became headwriter for the show.

She should have stayed in New Orleans.

The Jackie Courtney I saw on One Life as Pat was more forceful than the Jackie/Alice AW role. Granted her British accent as Maggie was AWFUL - but the whole story was a turd. She would come to those Joyce Becker fests and she was always MOBBED and got more attention than the rest of the soap crowd. She was beloved.

Besides the soaps, has JC ever done anything else ?

JC had no stage ambition which is one reason Lemay hated her. He was a theat-uh snob. I think JC was in an ep of Route 66 and that's it.

Isn't it telling that an "actor" only wants to play one role (assuming the Alice and Pat were pretty much the same role ). It seems she could not play or did not want to play anything else. She could not get past the role of Alice and would have probably stayed on the show till the end given the option

What's wrong with that, R418? It's a show watched five days a week. Maybe I'm wrong, but people expect continuity, not necessarily Lincoln Center repertory.

Lisa Peluso was just all wrong for AW. She might have worked better on GL, though.

Someone is posting the Dreams End storyline to youtube day by day. Marland was so good at playing all the beats, how a storyline could drive ALL the other storylines on the show.

How did I not know Farley Granger was gay back then? What a queen.

Many actors went into soaps because it offered longterm, steady work with good pay plus regular hours so they could be home in time for dinner with their families.

Beverly Penberthy's nephew, who posts on these threads occasionally, has indicated that was a large part of the appeal of soaps for his aunt.

That was likely also the appeal for Jacquie Courtney, as well as countless others including Vicki Sleastack, Beverlee McKinsey, Charita Bauer, Helen Wagner and many others.

[quote]Granted her British accent as Maggie was AWFUL - but the whole story was a turd.

I've been there. Done that.

R422 I know Wyndham has gone on record as saying that was the case with her - she had a young son (if not both her sons by that point) and had just split up with her husband/partner, so she needed to work, and the part of Rachel was a perfect fit.

I believe the same was true for McKinsey, who had done a lot of theater and a fuckton of episodic work, but who got a taste of soaps with Love Is A Many Splendored Thing. She had a kid to feed and, after two divorces, a partner/husband in the theater, as well. She may have been the main breadwinner.

Similarly more recently, I know Maura West was in the same boat - main breadwinner and after a time her and Scott decided to have him stay at home.

Mary Stuart said the same thing.

A lot of actresses said they could put their kids on the bus in the morning and then be home in time for them to get off the bus in the afternoon with a soap schedule.

I like to say there are 4 types of soap actors:

1) Actors who do soaps to pay for their other careers (Broadway, Off way, Regional Theatre, Comic Book Drawing...)

2) Actors who do soaps because of the schedule.

3) Actors who are just starting out and a looking for a SAG card and a way to learn the mechanics of blocking and all that jazz

4) Actors who get stuck on soaps because the money is easy and decent, the schedule is easy, and it's a steady gig that gives you a following a base to expand your brand

5) Actors who get old and fat and bitter about staying too long.....

(((((BELCH))))))

Larry Bryggman would definitely fall under #1.

Quick! Turn on TCM... A Summer Place is on and Ada is slapping teen sluts and murdering Christmas trees. She's so good and so loud.

I love that scene where she slaps that little heaux!

Kick ‘em in the cunt!

I know P&G is notorious for hanging onto their shows, but having The Doctors on Retro made me wonder what would happen if another channel tried a soap block.

How does this sound? SFT -- 12:30 ATWT -- 1 (closest I could make it to the longtime 1:30 slot) AW -- 2 GL -- 3 EON -- 4

If needed, SFT and EON could share an hour and they'd run Texas at 4.

Sounds perfect!

She was stunning.

No snark. That is probably the hottest photo I've ever seen of Kim. Big hair was not her friend.

I couldn't find one to link to, but there are a few photos of Kathleen and Kim together and they really did look alike.

(And ironically, are somewhat similar looking now, too.)

her hair is not too huge in this scene, but I thought this is classic Reva and classic soap

When was the last time any soap had two women squaring off in the powder room?

The 80s really damaged the PG soaps. All those small cozy little towns got skylines and millionaires and a disco. Every town had a fucking disco. They all lost their identities. That Quint and Nola bullshit. Tim and Margo going on adventures. Poor AW and Edge. Guiding Light also lost it's way.

The ladies room at the Springfield Country Club is where the very best cunting happened. Go to 10:08.

Get out of here Serial asshole psycho. Get a life.

[quote] Every town had a fucking disco.

And an aerobics studio/sauna, don't forget those.

What were the AW, ATWT, and GL discos called?

I don't recall ATWT having a disco, unless The Cellar counts.

The GL disco was called Wired for Sound.

On AW, Mitch Blake came to town to run the disco and Rachel created a sculpture mobile for it. Don't recall the name of the disco. Sorry.

Don't recall an ATWT disco.

Mitch Blake ran the disco in Bay City right ? Fuckin' Mitch Blake...they really did not know what to do with the character didn't they ? Did he not manage a gym or a spa also ?

Elliott Dorn ran the disco on Edge. Wasn't the disco on ATWT run by the syndicate and it was a front for drugs or something?

And finally, I've ignored this for as long as I can stand but I'm curious about something. Can someone please explain with this Spicen/Serial thing is? I see it pop up in the soap threads, but it makes no sense to me.

Serial is a nutjob who posts filth on here. He’s hated on twitter. Serial is in love with Spicen, who rejected him.

Was Search the only P&G show not to have a disco? Part of me now wishes ABC had mandated disco and we'd get to see Helen Gallagher tearing it up on the Ryan's Bar floor to a club version of "Too La Loo Ra Loo Ral."

Post of the Day, r447.

[quote] Wasn't the disco on ATWT run by the syndicate and it was a front for drugs or something?

That was Diana's, a restaurant originally owned by Diana McColl who needed to partner with the mob. If you've seen the 30th anniversary episodes, the party was at Diana's.

R445 They're two posters who have some kind of serious rivalry/argument on Twitter, and that occasionally spills over here. It is best to block them and not engage with them in any way, shape or form whatsoever.

For whatever reason, they think we care about their drama, but I have yet to see evidence, over many years, that anyone other than those two people have ever given even the smallest of fucks about their rivalry.

for years Luke ran the Campus Disco; and when he's leaving town in '83, he visits the old haunt and the sign outside says 'the Campus Disco'

on GH, of course.

On Ryan's Hope, Delia ran a nightclub that had mob ties. I can't remember what it was called (maybe "Delia's", or something clever like that?) but I do remember parties held there.

It feels like the right time to post......

AND....

I loved the disco GL opening. That was the one they used when I first started watching. That opening really said GL was different from other soaps. And, under Marland, it was!

I wonder what GL would have been if Marland had stayed in 1982. Don't get me wrong, I loved what Pam Long did when she took over in spring 1983. The characters she created became the heart of the show for so many years.

But I often wonder what Marland would have done with Nola and Quint, with the Reardons, with the Bauers, with Kelly Nelson, with Floyd and Katie, Leslie Ann and of course, Carrie Marler, if he had stayed on as HW.

Marland made JWS suck his toes.

I wonder how many hundred times r458 has typed that piece of info.

Indeed, R459. It's hugely erroneous, anyway, and shows a failure of basic logic. If his foot fetish was a real thing, he would have been licking and sucking on all those younger men and their sexy jock feet.

I have R458 blocked so I assume it's one of those Twitter queen messes, the same ones that talk about XYZ actress clogging the toilets.

[quote] But I often wonder what Marland would have done with Nola and Quint, with the Reardons, with the Bauers, with Kelly Nelson, with Floyd and Katie, Leslie Ann and of course, Carrie Marler, if he had stayed on as HW.

Carrie's departure was one of the reasons he left. I thought his GL was inventive but if he was fighting against Allen Potter one wonders what else he was unable to do while he was there.

No offense to Laurie Caso, but Robert Calhoun was a perfect producer for Douglas. They had a very good understanding of the other and those ATWT years were nearly flawless as a result.

You can tell very much about what Marland would have done on GL based on what he did at ATWT. I’m assuming no Lewises and Reva. He would have made Phillip into his version of Lily. He would have paired Phillip with some young ingenue Reardon sister. Basically, the show would have been the Spaulding’s and the Reardons with the Bauers mixed into those families.

[quote]He would have made Phillip into his version of Lily.

Pholden v. Phamian

I could still see Phillip and Beth. Marland liked incest stories, but the 3rd in the triangle would have been someone more earnest and decent, not a rich, bad girl. Think Lily, Dusty, and Holden. You would also see Phillip more torn between Justin and Alan. You would also see Alan embroiled in more domestic drama with Hope.

Zzzzzzip....

THUD.

Grant's huge dong.

It's spectacular, and it's real!

As long as we're playing the what if game ... Bridget & Jerome Dobson headwriting Another World. Either in 1984 (so no Santa Barbara in this universe) or in 1992 (covertly for a few months until SB ends).

[quote]You can tell very much about what Marland would have done on GL based on what he did at ATWT. I’m assuming no Lewises and Reva.

As much as we think of the Lewis clan as Pam Long's creation, since that is when they really came into prominence, they were not. Marland created both Josh and Trish. And Billy Lewis was mentioned as Alan's business rival for at least 18 months before we ever saw him in person in summer 1983.

I don't ever recall HB being mentioned under Marland. So, he may be exclusively Pam Long's.

And of course, Reva is pure Pam Long.

I think Mindy may have been Pat Falken Smith’s creation. She was starting to be mentioned in the fall of 1982.

OMG, Dorothy Lyman was fabulous here!

She was Lyman delivered the goods, but it was glaring that this wasn't who Gwen was; she was a nice person. I think the writers were going to originally have Willis be the bad guy but then a deal to bring him back fell through.

Overall, this was an excellent series of anniversary shows -- Pat, Alice, Russ, Liz, Robert, Dennis, Steve, Janice all back for a week's worth of shows.

After this AW, never really addressed its long history in the 70s and early 80s.

Compare that to ATWT that had Susan Stewart pop back up in '86 and she stayed and mixed it up with Kim again over Bob whereas they'd competed for Dan previously. Doug brought back the Eldridge (sp?) clan in '92 to give Lisa a long lost son.

Even tho the Bauers were decimated they were still on GL.

I adore the stilted, repressed atmosphere of these 70s shows. Everyone is so proper and lacking in passion, presenting the encouraged model for human behaviour in American society.... it's absolutely fascinating.

By the same token, in contrast to the stilted formality of the 70s, I found Douglas Marland's ATWT to be far too warm and amiable. Nobody acts like that in real life... absolutely nobody. Case in point: you had all these gatherings at the Snyders or the Hughes where there was an almost cloying atmosphere of cutesy, communal togetherness and this was something that seemed to treacle through the entire show, apart from characters like Lucinda and Barbara who were very individualistic and outspoken. I don't deny Doug Marland could balance storylines in an amazing way and unravel the tales with great skill but I don't think his characters or his vision for them were very remarkable. Unlike Harding Lemay, who really assembled a fascinating collection of characters on Another World who were the height of dysfunction... in many ways, Another World was the anti-As the World Turns.

R473 I disagree. One of the reasons I loved early Marland ATWT was because it felt so much like I ***knew*** these people.

Many warm and welcoming, some with ulterior motives, some very quirky folks.....I swear I know about three Kim Hugheses.

You may be right re: darkness and dysfunction. But I appreciated that, at the time, anyway.

I found that era of ATWT incredibly boring compared to the drawing-room drama of Another World and the psychosexual shenanigans of Days of our Lives, but I too am fascinated by the clip at R472. I'd love to see more from that era.

The thing that drives me crazy about those episodes for Dan's death and for a year or two after is the way Kim and Ellen interact as mother-in-law/daughter-in-law, with Kim calling Ellen "Mom" even after Dan is gone. Kathryn Hays is SEVEN years older than Patsy Bruder!! It did bother me that Marland never played Kim's special relationship with David and Ellen, even when Susan and Emily returned. I also hated that no one thought to bring back Annie or her kids. At least Marland kept the Kim-Betsy relationship going. Later writers screwed that up, especially when they had Susan suddenly living in Ellen's home and taking care of Betsy's daughter Danielle!

Ellen Stewart was so terrible. She was the one ATWT actress who made me retch every time I saw her on screen. That annoying voice and the TERRIBLE ACTING.

There is lots of that run of ATWT on youtube. It is pretty tedious, boring stuff.

Ellen was so frigging frumpy.

But if you don't have the Ellen Stewarts and the Nancy Hugheses, what is there to rebel against? Who is there to shock? Look, I loved, loved, loved Lucinda and Barbara, but you need that contrast. And to me, Marland did that perfectly.

R480 Agreed, but Patsy/Ellen was annoying. Anyone else who could act and didn't look like a poodle on meth would have been fine. I always want those Phoebe Tyler-type characters around to be a point of conflict.

[quote]look like a poodle on meth

Yeah, that captures it.

And really, it was just Ellen. The other Stewarts, for the most part, were interesting.

*Cue evergreen argument about Melanie Smith vs Kelley Menighan*

Melanie Smith and Susan Marie Snyder were so wonderful. Carly was just a poor man's Julie.

The scene at R472 is the reason why my Grammy and millions of others like her believed that this shit was real. Soap Opera was a heightened version of real life with a bunch of melodrama thrown in, but it was written in a way that was relatable to the ladies at home. The soaps even celebrated religious holidays back then. There was a real sense of family and community and that sort of burst out of the TV and into homes across America.

The audience changed and soaps had to change to keep them around, but those long scenes and moments of family and community, and those character things are why soaps were so big in the 60s and 70s. They were also huge in the 80s, but it was because they managed to attract a brand new viewer and left behind the old ones.

[quote]Carly was just a poor man's Julie.

They should never have gotten rid of Little Miss Seattle. Little Miss Imitation-Janet-Leigh never measured up.

And look how much more realistic-looking the set was, R485. If it had taken place in 2010, they would no doubt have shot the funeral on the Yardley Motel Room site.

Around 1982 with Nancy and Chris gone, the writers had shed Ellen of that meddlesome son who was older than she was, and had Ellen 'widowed' when David was presumed dead. Linda Dano played mother to Kate McNiel didn't she? That was another crazy time line. Ellen got modern, wore her hair down and dated other men. Then David came back. They really showcased Patsy Bruding at that time.

[quote]And look how much more realistic-looking the set was

It's also nice to see that all the people who should be at a funeral actually are. Nowadays, we get 3-4 cast members and a handful of extras.

Lisa looked so glam. Here's an interesting story Eileen Fulton tells of that time, which suggest that Douglas Marland had psychic or medium abilities:

"In an uncanny, and very personal, anecdote, Eileen recalled how, in the autumn of '79, character and actress somehow, briefly, seemed to start living eerily parallel lives.

"I remember the Bennett Hadley story, and [Lisa] wanting to marry him," Eileen confided, "Doug Marland was writing the script [later on] and it was very strange."

"I did not know Doug Marland at that time. He came on when I was supposed to go away with my real-husband, Fortunato--Husband 2. But I had decided I was going to leave him. So I changed my name to 'Ruth Stern.' My brother Jimmy went as my brother, 'Hilary Stern.' We had to go to a hotel in New York City because I had to meet with March of Dimes and UNICEF. I talked to the manager of the Hilton Hotel and said, 'I'm really Margaret Forunato, this is my card, but I don't want to talk to anyone here, so put me on the registry as Ruth and Hilary Stern.' Because I was hiding from my husband.

"So after we got through with the meeting, my brother and I got in his car and went up to Lake Minneawska. We got lost in a terrible storm, with rain and fog, and we finally got up to the hotel, and it was not as we remembered. I had taken him there as a little boy. It was old and dilapidated and a shutter was banging. For two weeks we were around there, then we went up to Lake Mohawk. I hid out as Ruth Stern. Danny could not find us, no one could. When I came back we were staying at a hotel here in town, still as Ruth and Hillary, and I got my script that I had to go on location to Ringwood, New Jersey."

As she told the tale, it became clear from her enthusiasm that Eileen still marvels at what awaited her back on the set. It was a clear case of art imitating life.

"When I got to Ringwood, and my brother went with me, Lisa had changed her name. Lisa was running away from Grant Colman. Lisa got stuck in a terrible storm with fog and lightning and rain that was blinding. She finally comes upon this old mansion and when she gets there the shutter was banging. My brother said, 'If you had told me I would have never believed it. It was too spooky for words!' And then I met Doug Marland. No one knew this about me because I told no one. I think that's one of the strangest things that ever happened to me."

I love this story Eileen Fulton tells about Douglas Marland having psychic, medium abilities:

" In an uncanny, and very personal, anecdote, Eileen recalled how, in the autumn of '79, character and actress somehow, briefly, seemed to start living eerily parallel lives.

"I remember the Bennett Hadley story, and [Lisa] wanting to marry him," Eileen confided, "Doug Marland was writing the script [later on] and it was very strange."

And how! She continued:

"I did not know Doug Marland at that time. He came on when I was supposed to go away with my real-husband, Fortunato--Husband 2. But I had decided I was going to leave him. So I changed my name to 'Ruth Stern.' My brother Jimmy went as my brother, 'Hilary Stern.' We had to go to a hotel in New York City because I had to meet with March of Dimes and UNICEF. I talked to the manager of the Hilton Hotel and said, 'I'm really Margaret Forunato, this is my card, but I don't want to talk to anyone here, so put me on the registry as Ruth and Hilary Stern.' Because I was hiding from my husband.

"So after we got through with the meeting, my brother and I got in his car and went up to Lake Minneawska. We got lost in a terrible storm, with rain and fog, and we finally got up to the hotel, and it was not as we remembered. I had taken him there as a little boy. It was old and dilapidated and a shutter was banging. For two weeks we were around there, then we went up to Lake Mohawk. I hid out as Ruth Stern. Danny could not find us, no one could. When I came back we were staying at a hotel here in town, still as Ruth and Hillary, and I got my script that I had to go on location to Ringwood, New Jersey."

As she told the tale, it became clear from her enthusiasm that Eileen still marvels at what awaited her back on the set. It was a clear case of art imitating life.

"When I got to Ringwood, and my brother went with me, Lisa had changed her name. Lisa was running away from Grant Colman. Lisa got stuck in a terrible storm with fog and lightning and rain that was blinding. She finally comes upon this old mansion and when she gets there the shutter was banging. My brother said, 'If you had told me I would have never believed it. It was too spooky for words!' And then I met Doug Marland. No one knew this about me because I told no one. I think that's one of the strangest things that ever happened to me."

So nice, you had to post it twice?

I started watching ATWT around the time John Dixon came back from the dead, and the Steve/Betsy/Craig triangle began. At that time, the character of Ellen seemed so matronly, yet I've heard she had a lot of hot storylines prior to this (including being tried for MURDER!). Was the actress any better during that time-frame? Was it the awful material she got in later years that hurt her performance?

Ellen became a victim of SORASing. Her illegitimate son was SORASed too quickly and they put Ellen with David (a much older man) and all of that sort of prematurely aged her. As someone said above, Patsy was younger than Kathy Hayes. Ellen was in the young group with Penny and sort of a tortured rebel. The writing betrayed her by turning her into something of an old fuddy duddy. But you also have to remember Irna's rules about characters and how everyone had to fit into a certain box. But, Patsy was trooper and played what she was given.

Bill Bell basically repeated Ellen's story on Days of our Lives with Julie to a much better end result for that character.

r492, you should be thankful i posted it all all. Cunt.

[quote]Bill Bell basically repeated Ellen's story on Days of our Lives with Julie to a much better end result for that character.

Although Julie was also paired with a man twenty years her senior and her child was SORASEd too rapidly.

It finally dawned on me why I hated Stephanie fuckface who played Tammy on GL. She looked like Ivanka Trump.

Poor Eileen would later be relegated to plugging up the studio toilet. Helen Wagner used to warn everyone not to go into the bathroom after Eileen was in there. #stinky

Stephanie Gaschet was awful. But good casting, she was as vapid and snaggletoothed as Laura "I Worked In a Gas Station Before Making It In Soaps" Sisk.

I never got the appeal of Stephanie Gaschet either. I wasn't a fan of the Tammy character and definitely didn't care for the Jonathan-Tammy pairing. I will admit the two actors did have chemistry, at least a little. But that pairing was creepy due to the cousins dating factor. It was part of the MANY, MANY things that Ellen Wheeler and David Kreizman did wrong when they took over.

I was very glad when they killed the Tammy character off. In fact, it wasn't until Tom Pelphrey was free of that romantic pairing that I ever warmed up to Jonathan.

This is the building that Irna Phillps lived in for years in Chicago - Bill Bell was not too far away in the early years.

R500 I remember reading somewhere that Krexman's own parents were first cousins.

If you're ever in Chicago and you go to N Astor St there's a series of sign posts (on the same post) detailing Irna's life, showing a script page of an early GL episode. The local historic society did a tribute to her.

I've been there; that building doesn't look familiar but maybe I was on the other side of the street OR Irna moved to a different (bigger?) building.

It's remarkable when you think about all the material she and Bill and Aggie produced but how now it's mostly all gone. It's a different world now.

I know it's early, but based on some news I've heard (unconfirmed) I'm staring a new thread.

Did Ada come back to life, r504?

Ha, I wish, R505.

Sadly, sort of the opposite.

Where did you hear this news, R504?

R507, on a facebook post on an unrelated soap topic (unfortunately, I get a lot of them and first saw it on my phone); I can't find it again to ask the poster if it's true.

So far appears to be just a rumor.

LOL I met Dana Kimmell who played Dawn Wheeler at at Comic con Convention. She was there with Amy Steel and other Friday the 13th damsels. I asked her about Texas and she said she left on her own, was not fired and that the production was a disaster. She had nothing to say about Bev McKinsey except that she was aloof. Loved Dana. She's out of the biz now except for these conventions. This was probably 8 years ago! Met Amy Steel there too and loved her. She recalled her time on GL and said she left for a modeling contract that led to LA and The Powers of Matthew Star.

Thanks for the info r510. I liked the Dawn Marshall (not Wheeler) character when paired with Dennis. They had nice chemistry, but the show moved Dennis toward Paige, someone who could stand up to Iris a little better.

And yes, given what we saw on-screen in that first year, not a surprise that backstage was a total mess. Paul Rauch apparently couldn't juggle being EP of two hour-long shows, even though they were in the same studio facility. It wasn't until Gail Kobe came on as EP about 10 months into Texas's run that the show ever seemed to stabilize.

Given that the Dawn character was written out about 6 months into the show and Dana would have been under a two-year contract (standard for newbies at that point), I'd have to say that she was fired and the character written off. It's possible Dana could have asked to be released from her contract, but few people in their first paid acting job would ever have the balls to do that.

Most actors who are fired from a show like to claim that it was their idea to leave to save face.

McKunty was a cunt. Cadt and crew hated her.

I have no idea who most anyone on Texas is or was.

I only vaguely remember hearing about the last few months, when Pam Long was acting AND writing.

And I loved McKinsey but tried to watch the first few episodes and was zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........

The Texas launch was a mixed bag. The month long introduction of the Texas characters on the 90-minute AW in July 1980 was fairly well done. They set up the characters and plotlines nicely and I was excited for when it spun off to its own show.

But once it debut as its own show on Aug 4, 1980, it was fairly lackluster. They were still doing act-long scenes (instead of several scenes to an act as soon became the industry standard). doing a single scene for the entire act was deadly dull when you have a a group of characters they you barely knew as was the case with Texas. Lots of talking, not much action. Consequently, nothing much seemed to happen in the first month or so. Talk about launching with a THUD!

And of course this was going up against Luke and Laura on the run on GH, which was exiting and compelling. Texas should NOT have debuted in the 3 p.m. timeslot opposite GH and GL. Should have been sandwiched in at 2 p.m. between Days at 1 p.m. and AW at 3 p.m.

And of course, it should never have debuted as 60 minutes. New shows should be 30 minutes.

Adding to the problem was the fact a lot of stations pre-empted AW and/or Texas, airing it in a morning time slot.

For example, in the town where I went to college, the NBC station had been airing AW at 9 a.m. and children's programming at 3 p.m. for most of the 70s. Then, when AW went to 90 minutes in March 1979, that station just dropped AW completely. The station wasn't willing to give 90 minutes of its morning time period to AW, so no AW in that area for a year and a half.

Then in Aug 1980, when Texas debuted and AW reverted to 60 minutes, the station picked them up again. It aired AW at 2 p.m., but Texas at 9 a.m. the next day. However, no one living in that area got to see the introduction of the Texas characters on AW and weren't drawn to what they were seeing when Texas spun off to its own show.

Luckily, in my hometown where I spent summer 1980, that NBC station aired the soap lineup in tact. So, I was able to watch the introduction of the Texas characters on AW and the first month of Texas episodes before having to return to college.

Just listened to the Brandon’s Buzz podcast interview with Long from last year and he asks her flat out if it was her overall mission to phase out the Bauers. She did bring up creating Johnny and then asked “Did I KILL off a Bauer?” Brandon didn’t follow up because he obviously didn’t remember she killed off Hilary Bauer. And neither, apparently, did she.

That's how unimportant the Bauers were to the show in 1984! She didn't even remember killing Hillary!

[quote]They were still doing act-long scenes (instead of several scenes to an act as soon became the industry standard). doing a single scene for the entire act was deadly dull when you have a a group of characters they you barely knew as was the case with Texas. Lots of talking, not much action. Consequently, nothing much seemed to happen in the first month or so. Talk about launching with a THUD!

I guess I'm in the minority. I loved the single scene per act style. In my opinion, soaps are meant to be talky and about character. All the cutting for multiple scenes and all that action came with a price tag that we would eventually learn soaps could not afford.

[quote] he asks her flat out if it was her overall mission to phase out the Bauers.

Was that a CBS or P&G mandate?

It was neither according to her. She basically said Charita was the beating heart of that family and when she became ill and had to leave then it was tough. She pointed out that Ed and Rick remained prominent characters for the rest of the run. It’s a good interview although I didn’t need to hear almost a full hour on her work on the Dolly Parton TV movies.

Said this a hundred times here....CBS wanted the Bauers minimized. They wanted the Stewarts and Hughes out of ATWT, too. They pushed to make the shows hip and modern. It was the push behind cancelling SFT, too.

And I know somehow Frons was involved in this shit.

Why were CBS intent on discarding the Bauers and Hughes and yet keep the Newmans and Abbotts intact?

The Newmans and Abbotts were new families on Y&R in the early 80s, and were mostly young characters instead of older recap characters like Bert Bauer and Nancy Hughes. The Hugheses and Bauers were very staid and old fashioned comparatively. And yet Doug Marland was able to revitalize the Hughes family completely and make them compelling by 1986.

[quote]Why were CBS intent on discarding the Bauers and Hughes and yet keep the Newmans and Abbotts intact?

Y&R successfully discarded the Brooks and Prentiss families in 1982. Likely the fact they were successful in doing that spurred CBS to want to get rid of the Bauers and Hughes.

[quote]And yet Doug Marland was able to revitalize the Hughes family completely and make them compelling by 1986.

After Marland quit GL in a huff in 1982, CBS was probably so glad to have him back at ATWT in 1985, they gave him a lot of leeway. It's quite possible Marland made revitalizing the Hughes family a condition for his taking over the show.

[quote]I loved the single scene per act style. In my opinion, soaps are meant to be talky and about character. All the cutting for multiple scenes and all that action came with a price tag that we would eventually learn soaps could not afford.

Single scenes per act worked when you're dealing with characters the audience knew and liked. Mac and Rachel scenes, Mac and Iris scenes, Rachel and Ada scenes, etc. could be gold because the audience loved the characters. And Lemay knew how to build a scene so a 6 minute scene could work successfully. And I loved many of those long scenes on AW.

But single scenes per act are much harder to pull of when you're dealing with new characters. Audience doesn't know them and therefore has a lower level of patience for them. Launch a brand new show where all the characters are new to the audience, as was the case with Texas, and them doing 5 or 6 minute long scenes. That's like an eternity to a soap viewer who doesn't know the characters.

Plus with a new soap, it takes time for the actors to learn who their characters are. Early on, the actors have a hard time imbuing the characters with traits that will be both honest to the character and endearing to the audience.

I don't think the length of the scenes had anything to do with viewers' rejection of Texas. It was just bad. The introduction of characters via AW prior to the Texas debut was strategically sound, the problem was that none of the characters -- save perhaps Carla Borelli's Reena -- had any audience appeal.

CBS wanting the older families gone from the two PGP shows in the early 80s (they'd jettisoned Search by 1982) was a big push to make those shows more "hip" and "now" and follow the lead of General Hospital.

1981 was L&L's wedding and it really kicked ratings into another stratosphere. L&L had been popular before that but when that happened, a lot of shows got a serious shakeup.

It sort of worked for a while at GL because the new blood built momentum all through 1983 and GL was #1 for several weeks in the summer of 1984.

[quote]I don't think the length of the scenes had anything to do with viewers' rejection of Texas. It was just bad. The introduction of characters via AW prior to the Texas debut was strategically sound, the problem was that none of the characters -- save perhaps Carla Borelli's Reena -- had any audience appeal.

Exactly. It wasn't about scene length. Texas was just the wrong soap at the wrong time. NBC wanted to do Dallas in daytime and failed.

Problems with Texas:

1) Timeslot. It should have been sandwiched between Days and AW

2) They neutered Iris

3) They spun off a show that was bleeding viewers at the time. Instead if fixing AW, Rauch gets the brilliant idea to create a spin off with one of the mothership's most popular characters. How does that even make sense?

4) The show was originally supposed to be set in the antebellum south.

5) There were no dynamic characters, except Reena. Even Justin was kind of dull in the beginning.

What NBC should have done was focus on the classic 3. Days, Doctors, and AW. That was the golden lineup. Days was getting back on track when they brought on the former GH writers, then NBC should have concentrated on fixing the very fixable Doctors and Another World.

I loved Reena! Carla Borelli was IT.

As I recall, Beverlee McKinsey was tired of Iris and wasn't going to renew her contract with AW in 1980. P&G and NBC offered her lots of money and star billing to do Texas.

She'd been off AW for about 6 months beforehand. Carole Shelley subbed for her in late 1979-early 1980 while she recovered from some medical problem (shoulder surgery, maybe). When that storyline ended, they wrote Iris out for about 3 months. So, Bev returned in late June 1980, did a few days worth of scenes with AW characters, then went off to do Texas episodes.

Digest has a poll about which defunct soap is missed the most.

Some of our shows are in the running.

Current top 5: OLTL, AMC, AW at #3, then ATWT and GL in a dead heat.

Poll here if you want to vote - but I think it ends soon

I always thought the only spin-off for Iris which would have worked would have been one set in DC with Iris grooming Dennis for a political career via his biological father Senator Alex Wheeler.

The events of the last week made me think of this.

Zimmer reportedly hated the story, but as a bullied Mary in HS, I wept for weeks and SO identified with the feeling of desperation.

On the podcast Pam Long swore up and down she didn’t write that, R532. She said “Key West? I wouldn’t write that. It’s not a part of my world.” She thinks she was credited because the last of her storylines were still being rolled out. She said Kim Zimmer begged her to kill Reva off in a definitive way but Long said “Uh uh!” Long also revealed she went to Doug Marland’s house and Doug had Gloria Monty’s pic on in the toilet so guests would pee on Gloria Monty’s face. Long was really funny about this, saying “Let it go, Doug!”

OMG, R533!

Was that on the Brandon's Buzz podcast? I didn't remember hearing the Monty story but it's hilarious.

had Doug not left GH we never would have had the Reardons, Vanessa and Henry, the murders of Diane Ballard and Joe Bradley, Alan and Hope's romance...Ed and Maureen...so much more.

Has anyone ever figured out what Marland's original intent for the Carolyn Crawford story was? How did it go so far off the rails?

I heard a story once that Darryl was going to be the killer but Rex Smith blabbed it all on a red carpet (if so, WHAT was he thinking?)

So they delayed it and who'd it end up being? Arthur? He was the 'Ken Wayne' in the tale so anti-climatic.

But this would have been the second killer Frannie fell for in 6 or 7 years.

I loved Doug's 1985 through 1991 on ATWT but it was time to go to AW maybe and do his magic there: rejuvenate the Matthews clan, revive Alice vs. Rachel; bring on a have not clan and add some hot young guys to the show.

R534, the Monty story is towards the end of the second podcast Long did with Brandon, it aired in Feb 2017. I really want to listen to the first one she did with him in 2009 (?) where she talks about her soap work at length. I like her a lot but find her memory lapses to be a tad suspect.

This is a link to a 2015 thread on Soap Opera Network about strength and weaknesses of various soap headwriters. The headwriters all shows are discussed, but P&G shows get a lot of discussion. Probably the vast majority.

There's some fascinating info contained on the thread. People on that thread know a lot about soaps (a few likely post on these DL threads as well).

If you want Search for Tomorrow info, there's a lot contained in that thread. Who knew that Harding Lemay was HW for Search for a four months in 1981?! Who knew that it was P&G, not NBC, that decided to cancel Search at the end of 1986?!?

Lots of discussion of GL and AWTW in there. Some nice discussion of Days and Y&R mixed in there. ABC shows get discussed a little too. The thread is 12 pages long, so it's not quick read, but it is worth the time.

Interesting thread.

I don't know who comments on their board or how they are approved, since I don't think they've approved any new members for over a decade.

I had forgotten until I read that thread how AMAZING Carolyn Jones was on Capitol and what a let down Marj Dusay was as her replacement.

Myrna on Capitol was a direct rip-off of Iris from AW, though.

You are going to have to explain that to me, r542. I don't see it.

R543, Myrna was around the same age as Iris and had the same devious qualities.

That's it? She was devious? Sorry, kiddo, you need much more to be a "direct rip-off." A much closer connection would be Stephanie Forrester...the woman behind the powerful man, tolerating her husband's infidelities grudgingly (for now), but with an agenda of her own through her favorite son. Of course, Myrna preceding Stephanie so the rip-off would go the other way.

R545 Thanks, Kim.

Know it all!

"Frances."

*sob*

When Kim first came to Oakdale, she was hot mess and a slut who went after her sister's man. Karma can be slow, but it always gets you. And the thing about Kim was that she was one of those sluts who thought because she did a few good things and was tortured by John Dixon so all of her past sins were washed away. No toots. Susan got your man, like you went after hers.

Question about the Dan Stewart funeral linked above -did Kim ever cry or have a breakdown over his death? She’s acting sedated in that scene

Kim Stewart’s pussy smelled!

WOW, a show from 1972.

I know she's in character here, but after Colleen's recent loss it breaks my heart to watch this....

Maybe if CZ hadn’t cheated on all her husbands, her son might still be alive. She had a screwed up son because of her cheating ways. #cunt

R553 is Hilary Bailey Smith

The fallout from the church fire was written by interim head writer Addie Walsh, who, unfortunately, never wanted to be a permanent head writer. Any moment mining real ATWT history in the late 90s, like that scene did, came from her.

Marie Masters was soooo beautiful. And she aged so well.

That's low even for R553. That's one of those vile pieces of shit that fight on the board all the time. Block that sow.

I already had him blocked, r557. WTF did you quote him for? That's Spicen.

Wonder why Addie Walsh didn't want to be HW?

New thread. Continue the discussion there.

Ooppps, I created that thread a little early. I misread the post count as 599, not 559. Gotta get my eyes checked.

Well, anyway, the thread is there for when we need it. So, finish out this thread first, then move over there.

Awww, Grandmama. Am I gonna have to drop Aaron, Jr. off at Janey Cobb's and drive you to the optometrist?

So, it's long been known that P&G was the one that pulled the plug on Edge of Night back in 1984. ABC was willing to continue airing the show, even though the ratings were poor. But Edge did well in some cities, especially when it aired in its intended 4 p.m. timeslot. In NYC, Edge was the second highest rated show in the 4 p.m. time period.

And a few years ago, CBS Daytime head Angela McDaniel strongly hinted in an interview that it was P&G, not CBS, that decided to end As the World Turns in 2010.

Now comes the news from the SON thread linked above it was P&G, not NBC, that decided to cancel Search for Tomorrow in 1986.

But what about Another World and Guiding Light? Did the networks (NBC and CBS, respectively) decide to cancel them? Or was it P&G?

What do people think?

I think NBC was absolutely behind Another World's cancellation. It couldn't live up to what the network expected in a soap (flashy, able to create buzz around, more than a little campy).

As for CBS and Guiding Light, that one might have been a mutual waving of the flag.

[quote]But what about Another World and Guiding Light? Did the networks (NBC and CBS, respectively) decide to cancel them? Or was it P&G?

NBC canceled AW but P&G didn’t put up much of a fight. ABC made overtures about buying the show or at least some of the characters and P&G said no.

If I'm not mistaken, ABC wanted Felicia. Because they couldn't get the rights, Linda Dano had to resurrect Rae (formerly Gretel).

Who else would ABC have wanted? Jake? Vicky? Cass? Rachel & Carl?

imagine them getting Rachel and pitting her against Dorian

Yes, PG wanted out of soap production and developed a multi-phased approach to do it that began in the 80s. It was very corporate. Something many people don't know is that NBC offered to buy AW in the 80s, but PG turned down the offer. There was also a brief discussion about combining ATWT and GL to save both shows, that was rejected. They even pitched 4 days a week, but was rejected. There was even talk about making GL a half hour, but they settled on the Peapack model. What annoys is the amount of programming that PG just sits on and refuses to do anything with it. Eventually it's going to be destroyed because no one is going to care about it.

[quote] Wonder why Addie Walsh didn't want to be HW?

She told a friend that she didn't want the headaches of dealing with the suits.

Dorian counters with a fresh from prison Iris (played by Bev, naturally). The Viki-Rachel alliance goes one step further with, surprise-surprise, Alice Matthews. The Dorian-Iris alliance, a bit trumped, relies on a newcomer to town, played by ... Brenda Dickson.

Sometimes I wonder what the hell was/is P&G's problem. Okay, fine, get out of soaps, but if someone's willing to care for your product, unload it. Don't stockpile something you have no use for.

Colleen Zenk's son died? Why is that woman always singled out for tragedy? It's not right.

ABC wanted the rights to the Felicia Gallant character but with a fresh slate, not with her Another World backstory.

Every time I want to have respect for ABC Daytime ...

And don't think that ABC Daytime wanted Felicia Gallant for good reasons. It was all about using angry AW fans to try and counteract Passions.

[quote]ABC wanted the rights to the Felicia Gallant character but with a fresh slate, not with her Another World backstory.

Yeah, that wouldn’t alienate AW fans.

r576, what fans? AW was at the bottom of the ratings, bitch. ABC was not obligated to bring it to their successful lineup for viewers. They wanted Dano because she was regarded as a soap icon.

they didn't want her HISTORY? that's who she is!

Cripes, was Doug the only writer who did his homework?

Aggie and Bill had long, long runs at their shows so they were in different boats.

r578, they wanted Felicia's flamboyant persona, of course they didnt want the history. Why the fuck would they incorporate a soap's history from a RIVAL NETWORK?

Why the fuck not create a new character then? With a new name? As long as they're not buying the history.

[quote] Why the fuck would they incorporate a soap's history from a RIVAL NETWORK?

You do understand that Mike and Hope Bauer from Guiding Light crossed over to Another World...and Jake (and Vicky and Marley and Donna and Cass etc.) crossed over to As the World Turns (and Guiding Light too!).

Right, if Dano’s the icon, who needs Felicia? (Of course, it turned out that nobody needed Dano as Rae, either.)

[quote]There was even talk about making GL a half hour, but they settled on the Peapack model.

I would have been quite happy with a 30 minute GL. And a 30 minute ATWT.

Hell, I would have been content to have ATWT air on Monday, Wednesday and Friday while GL aired on Tuesday and Thursday. There were any number of possibilities that were not explored to save the shows.

But it does sound like CBS was, and still is, committed to its soap audience, unlike ABC. Sounds like if CBS had had a say, GL and ATWT would still be around in some form. But of course, P&G had the final say.

Was Rauch the one behind AW expanding to an hour, or was it Lemay? Seems like that did more harm than good.

the hour was fine, it was the 90 minutes that did them in.

I should have phrased that better. Having AW expand to an hour meant that eventually, most other shows had to. That's where I think the harm came from.

R579 then why the fuck incorporate the character at all?

Because if they did and they DIDN"T include the history the fans who traveled over would be pissed they were ignoring said history?

The people who run these shows are so dumb. They're throwing their audiences away.

R586, I agree; I see where they had to go to an hour in some cases but why not scale them back to half an hour to see if they could be saved?

The 90 format was Rauch. Lemay agreed to it, but PG and NBC signed off on it.

But you know, as misguided as it was in hindsight, at least they were still trying to be innovative. The biggest damage done to most of these shows was the lack of innovation.

AW had done an hour long episode in May 1974 for its 10th anniversary where Steve and Alice got married. Ratings had been good on that, so Lemay started pushing to go to 60 minutes every day, saying it would allow him to write a better show with longer scenes where he could do more with the characters.

AW was already at the top of the ratings, so Paul Rauch would have been happy to try it. NBC too. So, AW went to an hour in January 1975. When AW's ratings remained strong, Days followed suit in April 1975, and then ATWT in Dec 1975. When all three of three of those shows (which were the top of the ratings at that point) stayed strong, AMC went to 60 minutes in April 1977. Then GL expanded to an hour in Nov 1977, followed by Y&R in Feb 1980.

Meanwhile ABC experimented and expanded GH and OLTL to 45 minutes in July 1976. When ratings remained strong, both shows went to an hour in January 1978.

So, yes, the networks felt like they had to play catch up and kept expanding the shows. Advertisers liked the format of one 60 minute soap rather than having two different 30 minute shows.

I happen to agree that the hour long format was very dangerous in the long run. It may have have some short term gains, but in the end, the hour-long format contributed greatly to the destruction of soaps.

As for AW's ill fated expansion to 90 minutes in March 1979, I believe it was NBC execs that pushed that idea. However, I doubt Paul Rauch put up much fight against it.

NBC Daytime made numerous mistakes with their soaps in the late 70s and early 80s. Anybody know who was the head of NBC Daytime during that period? That person caused major, longterm damage to NBC's soaps.

not sure but Lin Bolen ran NBC daytime from 72 to 76; she was said to be the model for Faye Dunaway in Network and Pamela Belwood in W.E.B.

Article for NYT on the hour long soaps

Another article, this one about ATWT

[quote]“As the World Turns,” the leading daytime soap opera on CBS,

So, on Sept. 10, 1975, was ATWT the leading soap or just CBS' leading soap?

I don't know if it was #1 soap on that particular day, but it was #1 for the year -- Another World was second.

I think ATWT remain #1 until the late 70s. I think AW and Days got very close at various times, but it remained top until the GH phenom.

AW and DAYS tied ATWT in 73-74, and AW tied ATWT again in 77-78. AMC took #1 the next year and GH took the top spot for the next nine years, before Y&R claimed the crown and never looked back.

Here's the WIki soap opera ratings page:

You delight me, r597.

You take me away, r596 r594.

You make my world turn, r595. Now let's head for the eavesdropping porch.

Thanks for posting the R597.