Nanny Stabber Trial Begins

Mine, too, OP.

I’m a mother on the other side of the park. I have been entrenched in the mommy wars for a decade and a half. I know nannies and I know mothers. My sympathies lie somewhere in the middle. I’ve seen my share of awful nannies. I know many women just like Krim. They brag about how their nannies are “part of the family!” and then treat them like shit, nickel and dining them for 15minutes worth of childcare or a slice of bread. And they really think they’re being magnanimous.

I can barely comprehend the horrors of what the Krim family endured, but I think it should be a reminder that you should be very very careful with the people who care for the people you love most in the world.

If I only had a nanny...

Well said, R1.

I am so glad to find out that there are other mommies on this web site. Yes I know it is mostly a sight for Queer men but I still like to come here and read all the posts and such but sometimes it does feel a little lonely. And when my husband asks me how I know so much about celebrity gossip (such as about Tom Selleck or Dionne Warwick) I always have to lie and say "I read it on Pinterest!" He doesn't even know what Pinterest is so it works fine. (He calls it Pin Interest lol.)

Lets share about our children. I have two. I'm not going to say their names because they are fairly unique and I don't want anyone googling them, but they are two boys 7 and 5. They can be a handful! The younger one is quite wild and rambuncsious and the older one is more of the "sensitive" type. I call him "My little sparkler" because he always has a little sparkle in his eye. Let's just say he is NOT allowed to read Data Lounge lol. I do not want him getting any ideas!

I would be very sad if they were murdered but that's why I would screen my nanny VERY carefully although I do not have a nanny. It seems like that is common in New York and other places like that but in my part of the country which is very Christian/family oriented there are not many nannies. Especially not nannies who murder thank goodness!

I am so glad to be able to connect with other mommies here! Who is going to share next?

I'm really interested in why it has taken this case so long to come to trial. I remember this event

[quote]They brag about how their nannies are “part of the family!” and then treat them like shit, nickel and dining them for 15minutes worth of childcare or a slice of bread. And they really think they’re being magnanimous.

That's why you have to hold your tongue and hear both sides of the story. I recall the Krim's talking about how they visited the nanny's native country, got to know her family (I believe the nanny has a son), etc. They did this, that and more of this and that for the nanny. All of that can be true but I want to hear the nanny's perceptions and her story.

Another NYC parent here. It shocks me how much blind trust some parents place in these nannies. Yes, murder is the extreme case, but I have witnessed so much terrible behavior from nannies. I can’t imagine leaving my kids in their formative years with a stranger who does not share my values.

It's taken so long, for one thing, because she is asserting an insanity defense. That takes a lot of work. There may also have been periods of time when she was deemed incompetent to stand trial - which is a different inquiry from whether she was competent at the time of the killings. That halts the caee until she regains competency.

R4 Go somewhere else to connect with other mothers. This is a gay website and a double murder thread. I want to read about the murder and trial not about your kids!

Thanks, R7. Oh, c'mon R8. Stop being Queen of the Douche Queens!

For those that need some background on this case

First of all it is a QUEER site r8, and I am queer, so I don't want to hear it. Yes most of the queers on this site are men but not all of them. Second of all, I was just introducing myself to the other mommies because there seemed to be several of them on this thread, and there are not many places to discuss that on this site. You do not have to be so rude.

Maybe take care of your own children. And if you need to work, then maybe don’t have kids.

MMPH! This is about to get messy. Back to my "Men Presenting Hole" threads...

All you Mommy cunts need to fucking go back to fucking iVillage where you fucking belong. You’re fucking not welcome here you fucking cunts.

“Lets share about our children. I have two. I'm not going to say their names because they are fairly unique and I don't want anyone googling them, but they are two boys 7 and 5. They can be a handful!”

Omg, I hope this is a parody post.

R8, chill the fuck out. R4 was mocking R1, or are you so up your ass you can't comprehend it? You hate that women are here and want an exclusive cave for yourself.

R14, you beat me to it and was far nicer in pointing out the obvious. I tip my hat to your kindness. As for this nanny, I think she had a deep resentment and it will come out. Still no excuse for murder, so I'd be interested in seeing if a juror will consider the type of abuse she may have endured as temporarily insane, if she was just insane insane, or was just a hateful murderous woman who wanted revenge.

[quote]Still no excuse for murder

And, so brutally. Those poor, poor, babies!

Trying to portray herself as a victim could seriously backfire. If she had any kind of a temper or a previous incident then it would be harder to believe she didn't murder those kids out of pure, hateful anger. I'm really curious to see what the defense does because this really looks like a slam dunk for the prosecution in today's climate. Another criminal immigrant, blah blah blah

R4 was pissong me off for about three sentences...then I laughed & laughed.

As for Nanny Yasmine, she is not crazy, she is just a killer. Mother Kim seems like a total cunt. The kids shouldnt have to pay for the Nanny’s anger or their mom’s piece-of-shit attitude.

R19 how is mother Krim a cunt?

She'll be found guilty and give the maximum. Does NY have the death penalty? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

*given*

Nannies: if they're not fuckin' yer hubbie, they're killin' yer kids.

R21 we don’t know. Law & Order keeps going back and forth on capital punishment so we can’t remember.

[quote]They did this, that and more of this and that for the nanny. All of that can be true but I want to hear the nanny's perceptions and her story.

WTF? What "story" do you need to hear from the evil nanny that will make you think she was justified in slitting the throats of two innocent children? There is NO reason that would make it okay. None.

It doesn't matter what her treatment was. I don't care if she was beaten, raped and starved by the parents. Ever heard of quitting a shitty job and finding another? Calling the cops and reporting criminal acts perpetrated by an employer? Nope, she didn't do any of that. Her solution was to butcher two toddlers.

Get out of Datalounge, ladies.

YOU 👏 ARE 👏 NOT 👏 WANTED 👏 HERE

It's your type that's not wanted here. This is a site for GAY people, not exclusive to gay MEN. Sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up.

Nanny will probably get off with the insanity plea. Then she'll be able to enroll in classes at Hunter College where she can get free from and board for life.

She doesn't get off if they find her guilty of insanity in this. She goes to an asylum for the criminally insane. These were innocents, so no, she doesn't get off.

Not blaming anyone here, but the NYT articles indicated that the nanny had been going off the rails in the weeks before the murder. Didn't the mom notice at the very least that the nanny was in a bit of a mood? What she did was horrible and there's no excuse for it, but it doesn't sound like it entirely came out of the blue.

I wonder if the Krim's are going to be sorry that this whole thing ever went to trial, because I suspect that the nanny's lawers are going to talk about how badly she was treated by them and that anyone with even a bit of awareness would've noticed that she was melting down right in front of them.

How are the Trumpsters not cumming all over themselves about this?

R4 is a parody post and lesbians have been a part of Datalounge since the beginning, r26.

I can’t wait to hear what an oblivious, self involved piece of shit the mother is. So much money but too cheap to spend it on decent child care for her children. And no one snaps out of nowhere And slashes the throats of 2 kids. There were warning signs.

It reminds me of the story about that female film director who was murdered in NYC a few years ago by an immigrant handyman. The lesson here is whatever you do, don’t be mean to the hired help! It’s not worth the narcissistic satisfaction some people get by being an egomaniacal boss.

Fun thread where the same 2 people are pretending to be mommies in NYC and also pretend to be outraged gay men. Very good B+. Bye now

I'd love to let that nanny loose on anyone who uses the term "queer."

I am GAY, not queer, you fucking fuck. Get the fuck out of here with your frau shit. Queer is a slur.

Kids are terrible. Only their own parents find them tolerable, and they still kill em sometimes.

The mom sounds like a trashy mess, carrying on like that in the courtroom.

But the nanny is obviously an animal. If you have never been exposed to cultures steeped in extreme poverty, I have news for you. The people are incapable of functioning in many ways. For example, it is considered “normal” to discipline children by biting them. It’s considered “normal” to be homeless from time to time, even when you are working and can afford housing.

They are dangerous people not because they are “evil,” but because they have no coping skills or ability to handle normal adult responsibilities. Why would you let someone like this take care of your children?

I wouldn’t want a stranger in my home everyday. I’d never feel like I could relax.

[quote]The mom sounds like a trashy mess,

I don't understand how a few of you can reach this conclusion. I'll admit that I haven't read any of the recent stuff about this case but from what I do remember is that the mom was a nice young married woman, who wrote a blog, and had three children and a helper.

Can you imagine coming home and seeing two of your children's throats slit while some deranged woman was stabbing herself in the neck?

Ok stupid question but why the hell does it take so damn long for cases to go to trial?

Oh yeah two of the kids were named Lulu and Nessie. I seriously hope those where just nicknames.

I live around the corner from the building where it happened. I used to see this freak out on the street all the time. She was a nasty piece of work, spitting at people walking their dogs, cursing and yelling at people on the street to get out of her way....she was a major accident waiting to happen....and then she did.

No one in the hood was really that surprised.

r6 "blind trust" or maybe they just dont want to go through the trouble of raising their own kid so they happily give up the job to just about anything they think wont fuck their hubbies????

Gay people have children, too. I don’t come here to talk about my kids, but I have a PERSPECTIVE on the world of affluent NYC parents and nannies that some don’t have. I don’t contribute on threads about gay male issues, but I read some of them because it’s interesting to see other viewpoints.

Ortega is a fucking monster and needs to be put away forever. It’s really difficult to find a good nanny, and some people ignore warning signs. I have a friend whose nanny OVERDOSED in her apartment. There were warning signs.

[quote]a nice young married woman, who wrote a blog

Ok, I hate her already.

[quote]esbians have been a part of Datalounge since the beginning, [R26].

Lesbians belong. Hausfrau crotch droppers don’t.

It's Stabbin' Nanny OP. Do try to keep up if you are going to keep the discussion going.

This Krim lady is very rich and offered the nanny more “cleaning work” and “references for another (extra) job” when the nanny told her about her money problems. I would have upped her salary by 50-100 bucks a week. Do you want a poor, desperate person alone in your apartment with or without your kids? That money would have meant nothing to Krim. But the nanny still deserves the death penalty. Lots of poor people don’t butcher little kids because they’re so fucking angry at their cunt mother.

[quote] That money would have meant nothing to Krim.

You don't know that. You don't know what kind of extra burden that would have been for the family.

R24, there is no death penalty in New York.

If she was s blogger, why did she need a nanny?

Is R4 a parody post? It certainly reads like one.

I read the whole thread.

Bravo R4. Well done.

I absolutely can NOT wait for the mini-series!

Fran Drescher in........

STABBY NANNY

Perfect casting to play the nanny Yoselyn Ortega--Senator Valentina Petrenko

R49-I read up on the Krim’s finances ages ago. They cultivated an odd family like relationship with the nanny, like traveling with her to meet her family. But in the end, they could not really treat her like family. I grew up in a third world country. We had servants but we were not rich. Our housekeeper did everything for us and worked like a dog. Her husband was a leper and my mom took him to the hospital and paid for his treatment. But I heard awful stories of “servants” taking revenge for poor treatment. Luckily I had a generous mother who constantly floated loans to the “servants”, paid for their medical treatments, clothes and did not moan about a leper in our car, and I continued the tradition when I took over taking care of the family. But that was our culture. We did not make our servant our family and then watch her get evicted. I can see the nanny going crazy.

If women can't be bothered to bring up their own children they shouldn't be having them in the first place.

Oy where to begin.

[quote] It's Stabbin' Nanny OP.

You are absoultely correct, R47. Mea culpa. How could I have forgotten. Damn DL for no editing function.

In the old days the NY State death penalty was reserved for only 1st degree murder which was statutorily defined such as killing a prison guard, murder for hire, not for ordinary murders no matter how cute the victims were.

The insanity defense is not meant to "justify" the murders. Its claim is that the defendant was not in her right mind at the time of the killings and could not differentiate right from wrong. Or differentiate the children from a rampaging pit bull. You know, as in crazy, hallucinating.

For those not here when the murders occurred, we had threads dissecting Marina Krim's blog(s). She was quite prolific for many years. She was also rather narcissistic. And lest we forget, she was very passive aggressive with regard to Nessie (her surviving child) and could barely find anything nice to say about her while overpraising the other two (now dead) children - so much so that many of us remarked that her two favorite kids were killed and she was left with the less favored child. Like if Ivanka and Don Jr were killed and Donald was left with Tiffany. I thought she was bitchy about Nessie but seemed to be embracing her after the murders. I hope that now she has another child she hasn't returned to her former days of shading poor Nessie.

And, yes, it was discussed that the nanny was exhibiting symptoms in the time leading up to the killings. But if you'd read the blogging you wouldn't be surprised that Marina missed them.

I always felt the nanny stabbed herself in the neck to show she was “crazy”. She didn’t really harm herself and was not hallucinating at the time she murdered the kids. She knew it was wrong because she waited for the mother to leave the house before the murders. I can almost guess which forensic shrink in New York will try to spin this into NGI.

Like if Ivanka and Don Jr were killed and Donald was left with Tiffany.

Your lips to God's ears, R58 ! (and stabby Nanny should kill Eric too, just because he's ugly! but keep Barron)

[quote] I always felt the nanny stabbed herself in the neck to show she was “crazy”. She didn’t really harm herself and was not hallucinating at the time she murdered the kids.

That's a factor that can be considered. Sime will consider it convenient. We don't really know if she was hallucinating but that's not necessary for her to be found NGI.

[quote] She knew it was wrong because she waited for the mother to leave the house before the murders.

Another good factor to consider.

The problem is that NGI law is woefully behind the times. In reality there are varying degrees of mental illness that should rightfully lead to NGIs. People may seem rational and even do things that may point to totallly sane. But in reality they are listening to an entirely crazy and irrational compulsion.

If you'll remember Dahmer was not found not guilty by reason of insanity and if he wasn't legally insane I don't know who was. The law needs to catch up to the science of mental health.

You can't tell me the parents didn't know this woman was a little off.

Why did this take so long to go to trial? This woman has been sitting in jail for 6 years without being convicted of a crime?

Every time I hear a person go on how their help is like family, I feel like they believe that because it makes them feel better about having the poor serve and wait on them.

Typical Datalounge, attacking the mother and blaming her for the murder of her kids. What about the father? He has no responsibility over his kids or their care?

The nanny was well paid. She was treated well, but she wasn't family. She was help. They aren't just going to give her free money. If she didn't like the job, she could have quit. She was a US citizen so it's not like she had to worry about being deported if she didn't have work. There are plenty of immigrants in New York City who work way shittier jobs for less pay and worse treatment. She's just a nut.

BFBK threads

Slow clap for R64.

And those of you who think you should "just know" when something is off about someone. Well, duh--sometimes you don't. Psychopaths like this foul monster are very devious, conniving and duplicitous. She could have fooled anyone probably.

She was seething with rage and jealously toward the pretty young mother and her family. That's it. End of story. I've known people like this. They just can't handle the unfairness of life. It drives them crazy.

I was going to post similar, R64. Starting with R1, wtf! The nanny is a monster and having any sympathy for her is abnormal. By all accounts the nanny was unpleasant and her mental health was deteriorating rapidly to where she would wander into her neighbors apartment. The mom tried to give her extra work cleaning because she was bitching she needed more money. Even if the mother was the biggest cunt in the world, there isn't anything that could justify killing those 2 kids. She could have quit. She was jealous of the mother and that's why she did it. Too bad we no longer have the death penalty in NY.

R13, iVillage has been dead since 2013. I know, cuz I used to work there...

I don't care if the mother was a raging cunt who treated the nanny like garbage, you can't slaughter children.

That being said, some families really place way too much trust and responsibility in these "helpers." I don't even trust my dog with other walkers or sitters.

Trust no bitch when it comes to the ones you love...

When your child dies, whether by your hand or the hand you hired to hold theirs, you are responsible.

if the nanny was a known cunt around the neighborhood, why was the mother leaving her children in the nanny’s care? Why wasn’t the nanny fired?

The mom was a fucking blogger, she could’ve easily taken care of her own kids.

Damn straight, the mom is partly to blame for the deaths of her children.

R61-Look at the Andrea Yates drama. I’m even on the fence about John Wayne Gacy. The really restrictive mental hospitals usually lead to longer sentences and have had names like “so and so for the criminally insane”. NGI is so narrowly defined and hard to prove. Do you think Gacy was mentally ill? (serious question). I predict NGI will fail for this nanny. Thoughts?? R68-I too won’t let anyone walk my little Maltipoo. R69-I do agree people are not paranoid enough and leave strangers with their kids. But again, that’s the culture here, so you are being very harsh on the mother. Nannies for rich people are part of her milieu in the rich class she and her husband are from. But everyone describes the mother as self-involved. And the nanny was in her own self-involved world. Bad situation all around. This is great thread btw.

Ortega was hired as a nanny. When she confided in the Krims that she had money problems, they offered her additional hours, not watching the kids, but as a cleaning lady. The hours offered also conflicted with her doctor's appointments, so she would not be able to perform the extra duties even if she wanted to. Later Krim complained that her work was unsatisfactory and she would be let go if she did not improve. Seems as though there were many triggers in her interactions with the parents that could have finally sent her over the edge. She could have perceived their lukewarm response to her plight as rubbing salt in the wound. Concerned family members had taken her to see a psychologist in the months leading up to the tragedy, after she complained of feeling overwhelmed and as if she were losing her mind.

Another interesting observation, it was first reported that Mrs Krim found Ortega stabbed and unconscious on the bathroom floor next to the bodies of her children. Later she reported that she actually witnessed Ortega stabbing herself. Ortega's lawyer could argue that Krim changed her story to finger Ortega as the sole culprit, shutting down the theory of some fiend breaking into the apartment, killing the children and leaving Ortega for dead. Krim's histrionic, attention seeking behaviour in court will untimately help Ortega's defense.

R69 = So all the blame lies on the mother? You're a fucking idiot

If you need to completely snap and commit a cold-blooded, grisly murder, Canada is the place to do it.

The guy who beheaded and cannibalized a stranger on a Greyhound bus 10 years ago was recently released and is now walking freely amongst the public.

That's horrible, R75.

Could someone euthenize R4, thanks.

It is a parody post, R77.

The mom was/is a piece of work and I feel terribly for what happened to them.BUT air you are entrusting a person with your children they ask for Moore of a salary and you don't want to pay - look another nanny!

Friends I know have nannys they tolerate me crazy nanny demands because finding someone new to care for your children is very difficult and they are ultimately lazy uber striving professional mom's who don't.want.to.deal.

Is it just me but I think it's creepy when people who lose children seem to have more children to make up for it? I don't think I could do that...

R74, yup. You are responsible for your kids. This is nature. It’s the same result no matter what happens- you lost the kid, your problem. Something horrible befalls your child, you are the one to suffer. Parents carry epi pens in case there’s a peanut in the room. You leave your kids with someone desperate... on you.

The parents, especially the mother, comes across as a complete narcissist.

Not saying this is the case for this woman, but a lot of wealthy women are so paranoid that their husbands will cheat on them, or, even worse, leave them for someone else, they would rather put their children's safety at risk than give their husbands the opportunity to be tempted. That's why they will never employ an attractive woman in the household. Most straight marriages are built on shaky foundations.

While obviously the nanny is guilty, I remember at the time that the streets were cordoned off for BLOCKS the day this happened. Because it happened to a wealthy white family. Anybody else of a different socio-economic strata would be lucky for a cruiser and strip of police tape.

R83 i agree.

Did the mom blog about the murders the next day?

What's wrong with letting someone else do all the gruntwork of raising your kids?

Men do it all the time!

Touché, R86.

R85, she immediately birthed new content in the afternath, at age 41.

“These children were my best friends! Like, not enough to hang out with them or like bathe them or feed them- but they were really cute in pictures with me!”

According to the prosecutors the little girl tried to fight back and was slashed and stabbed about 30 times. And apparently both children's throats were cut so deep, they were almost decapitated.

Mentally incapacitated or not, this lady really shouldn't be allowed to see the light of day again.

The psycho nanny, the exhausting cunt mother and the special needs looking father are all trash. New York is the pits.

The rich parents/overworked nanny dynamic is a dicey one. You’re asking poor people to come into your much more extravagant home and perform one of the hardest, tedious, tiring jobs imaginable. Oftentimes these nannies have families of their own, but they leave them in order to provide for them. It’s cruel mockery, in a way.

In the marriages of wealthy people where the husband has or earns the money and the wife stays home, the wife's primary responsibility isn't to raise the children and keep the home... the wife's primary responsibility is to keep the husband happy.

If a husband who's rich enough to get just about any woman he wants marries, he expects that in return for his beneficence his wife will put him first in all things - and that means she puts his social, sexual, career, and emotional needs ahead of her own, or the children's. And that usually means help, a man who has everything and can get anything more isn't going to put up with a wife who ignores him to go mop the kitchen floor or change the baby's diaper! No, she needs to be available to socialize with his colleagues, keep his relatives happy, satisfy his sexual needs, make sure his home is always spotless and the children always presentable without any visible effort on her part, and if she doesn't he'll find someone who will.

I've known these people in real life, and that's how these marriages work. It's not just a wife selfishly doing everything possible to hang onto the wealthy husband, the husband is making his own selfish demands as well. Gawd, some of you seem to think the fathers are out of the picture in a family like this, which shows how much you know.

Some wealthy women have nanny's while they work from home. This blogger probably had the nanny there, to keep the kids out if her hair while she blogged. Also, their kids are in a lot of activities. You can't be two places at once.

Marina? Where is her family from? This is why some women immediately move their mothers in with them once they marry. They have no problem with their mother leaving their father for an extended period of time to help out.

I'm a gay man and I welcome the straight women here. Glad you like the gossip, so do I.

[quote] I'm a gay man

R91-Thanks for making me laugh. Your description of the dad is spot on.

[quote]In the marriages of wealthy people where the husband has or earns the money and the wife stays home... the wife's primary responsibility is to keep the husband happy.

So true. Very insightful post at r93.

I wonder if the little girl was afraid of the nanny.

At her age and given that she spent a lot of time with the nanny, the little girl could have picked up on signals. And she fought back.

Poor kid. Apparently the little boy was asleep when stabbed, but the little girl - 30 stab wounds.

Whatever else happens, the woman who did this should never, ever see the light of day again.

Terrible, terrible.

The Krims were not rich. The father had/has an executive job with some media company - maybe ESPN. Don't remember now. Very comfortable but not rich.

No one is trying to justify the killings. People are discussing the whys and wherefores. This is complicated.

Life is complex. If a drunk driver hits my car and I'm not wearing my seat belt then is it my fault my injuries were as bad as they were? Well yes to some extent. You can't go through life without wearing a seat belt and expect no bad consequences. Marina was careless with her children's well being. Simple as that. Doesn't make her guilty of their deaths but she should have taken more care.

And, yes, she is still making this all about her. Her described behavior on the stand was OTT melodrama. The judge should have adminished the prosecutor to keep their witnesses under control. That is the kind of conduct that gets mistrials. Why would she behave that way so her children can just get more upset about all this - poor Nessie - unless it was to being more attention to herself. Is there a TV movie in the works? And I still can't forget how she treated Nessie in her blogging. She clearly had her favorites and Nessie was not one of them.

WHOA! R101!

[quote]Marina was careless with her children's well being.

You don't know that.

[quote]And, yes, she is still making this all about her. Her described behavior on the stand was OTT melodrama.

She wrote an article somewhere? Could you link to it, please? Thanks!

R101, where does it say she wrote an article?

Marian was careless? And what about the father of the kids? Oh, never mind. I forgot this is Datalounge.

^Marina

The father was a CNBC media executive with a very expensive apartment a block from the Museum of Natural History in Manhattan. Prime Westside doorman building. I can’t imagine the rent. So they were beyond comfortable. They got too comfortable with the nanny. I don’t think they were careless. But obviously, they could not take care of three children without a lot of help. That is common in that type of Manhattan rich people.

3 bed 2 bath in their building is going for nearly 11,000 $(eleven thousand) dollars a month.

I meant “those types” of Manhattan residents. Btw, the building is called La Rochelle.

The Krims live in the La Rochelle building in Manhattan where the rent for a 3bed 2 bath is $11,000 a month. They are definitely very affluent.

Both the mother and father came from wealthy families. A Media/ Digital VP, depending on the industry, could be earning millions after stock options and bonuses. It's pretty certain Marina did not marry him fir his looks.

They still live in the same apartment?

Do we know the nanny’s salary?

$6,000/ yr plus a gently used Ann Taylor jacket.

R113 ww

[quote] So they were beyond comfortable.

Well that's what we would call it. I don't recall either of them coming from great wealth. I also got the impression from her earlier blogs that they needed his salary to afford their apartment and life style. That is not rich. Real money would not be renting. I also don't recall he made millions back then either. I guess it's all comparative.

R115 does she still blog?

Upper-middle class.

Or maybe lower-upper class.

Yeah, it's relative. Some people think a "six figure salary (i.e. 100k)" is "rich."

the krims are unlikable but the nanny killing two children is inexcusable. mom is going to have to tone it down in the court room to insure justice for her family.

The mother seems painfully unaware of how she comes across.

"Over the next few weeks, my senses were awakened. I started noticing other connections. One quiet morning, I was walking along the beach and The Peanuts Theme Song, a family favorite that was played at the kids’ memorial service, was blasting from a beach house.

Another time at the beach, a man was jogging by and when he reached Nessie and me, he stopped directly in front of me and said, "You and your daughter are extraordinarily beautiful.” Surprised, I thanked him and he jogged away. I really loved that simple message from a complete stranger. I wondered if somehow it was being delivered from Lulu and Leo."

R116, there were links to her earlier blogs. She had a cooking one earlier. Maybe before she had kids. She was a dutiful chronicler of her life. I read them all when we were obsessed with this case in its early days. I always got the impression she was trying to make it big via a lifestyle blog. Or maybe she is just naturally chatty.

They have a Facebook page in memory of their dead children and their new foundation - I think dedicated to providing arts for children - because you know Lulu was an important genius artist. Oh now I'm just being cynical again. Surely I am going straight to hell. Sorry.

There's just something not exactly healthy about obsessing over the dead children when there are other children that need attention. Of course they should be remembered by their family and Nessiemmay miss them but is that now the new thing for Marina - mother of martyred children?

And who the hell upthread said you NEED a nanny when you have three kids and are a stay at home mom? Please.

I am positively thrilled to hear from our "Take it to iVillage" troll. It's been a while, and I had begun to worry about his welfare.

Another NYC parent here. We had a wonderful nanny when my son and daughter were babies. In fact, our nanny says she went to a play date with a bunch of nannies and the kids they watched where our nanny met the nanny on trial. She said she saw this nanny was weird and controlling and made a mental note to avoid her.

[quote] She said she saw this nanny was weird and controlling and made a mental note to avoid her.

Thanks for the skinny, R122. Of course there were clues along the way. Marina unfortunately seems too self involved to pay attentiom to others not important to her.

Just a note about the father. Marina was a stay at home mother and took on the responsibilities full time so her husband could have the long hours required for a good paying job for his family. He may have barely been around when the nanny was there. Maybe he was involved in hiring, monitoring the nanny, etc. but parental and household duties are apportioned similarly apportioned all the time.

[R81] Marina Krim strikes me as a total narcissist too... one of those stereotypically awful rich Manhattan moms. on her mommy blog she literally posted about her Amazing Magical kids every fucking day. She even made it clear that Nessie, the one that eventually was spared the stabbing, was the 'problem' child and took digs at her behavior any chance she could. Lulu and Leo were perfect in every way and so popular of course. She seems absolutely awful and probably treated the nanny like dirt. I feel horrible for what the children suffered but it also seems pretty apparent that Marina is a piece of work. The dad seems completely devoid of emotions, totally dead behind the eyes even in an interview he did pre-murders.

I wish the mommy fraus would gtfo. WE ALL KNOW MURDER IS UNACCEPTABLE, nobody is arguing that. Now can we just talk about crazy mommy blogger loon krim in peace? It doesnt mean that because your kids die you are off limits. And that poor Nessie, living with survivor's guilt and now stuck with her Mother.

r4 is one of the most brilliant parody posts in the history of Datalounge, At first i thought it was real, but then when I realized what it was I nearly fell over laughing and couldn't stop giggling for about ten minutes.

Between this and the Leslie Caron and Jack Mackenroth threads last weekend, this has been one of the funniest periods in datalounge history.

Bravo r4.

R126 = R4

She named one of her daughters after her yoga pants.

[quote]It reminds me of the story about that female film director who was murdered in NYC a few years ago by an immigrant handyman. The lesson here is whatever you do, don’t be mean to the hired help! It’s not worth the narcissistic satisfaction some people get by being an egomaniacal boss.

Err, no. Adrienne Shelly didn't know the man who killed her. He was on break and noticed her go back to her apartment. He followed her back, assaulted her, strangled her to death, emptied her wallet and left.

The nanny has that smug look on her face. We need to bring back ol sparky, just for her!

R129 That is incorrect. She had asked the work crew to keep the noise down, and the Ecuadoran worker threw his hammer at her. He later became concerned that she would cause him to lose his job, so he went to the studio apt which she used as an office and killed her then attempted to make it appear as a suicide.

I assume that the person who compared the situation to the stabbing nanny meant that one needs to be careful how they come across to someone who is poor and desperate. He probably saw her as a rich bitch and thought. "I'll show her."

I thought r113 was kidding but according to the NYT she was only being paid $500 a month. Is it normal for nannies to make such low wages? How do you live on $6,000 a year?

Let them eat cake!

R132, probably a live in Nanny whose "room and Board" were calculated as additional salary.

I seriously doubt Marina would have Ortega living in her home. Ortega had her own apartment in the Bronx. I believe she had her son with her by then.

R131

That story about the actress telling the work to keep the noise down turned out to be totally false. I think the killer even admitted it. He went in to rob her apt. She caught him and he murdered her.

Marina Krim is going to cause a mistrial. I don't know why the judge didn't warn Marina and the prosecutor. Her outbursts only help the defense because who wouldn't snap having that woman as your boss?

Before the murders, didn't she blog about coffee grounds being left on the coffee maker instead of being perfectly cleaned?

The murders were horrific. I remember that night when the police helicopter kept circling.

I feel sorry for Nessie. Now that there are 2 new boys and Nessie, I think I would want to focus on them and their happiness and let go of the foundation. They can't compete w/ murdered kids.

endlessly circling.

typo: workers ^^^

sorry. stray "endlessly circling" too ^^

Authorities revealed Ortega constantly asks about her own family, but has never mentioned the Krims since her arrest.

Ortega has a family? Her crazy. chaotic lifestyle didn’t lend itself to having a family.

R136 You need to notify Wikipedia and several other sites that they are in error.

My version is the "official" story.

Not only does she have a son and supportive family, they started a Facebook page shirtly after her arrest, claiming her innocence and asking witnesses to come forward. According to them, Ortega and the husband were having an affair. Marina found out and turned her rage on the kids.

Hate to disappoint you guys but r4 is not a parody. She posts a follow up at r10.

Frenching a chick back in college doesn’t make you ‘queer’, R10. Go back to Jezabel with that shit.

God that seems so long ago, if anyone asked I would have said I thought it happened around 2002-2003.

Yes, it's horrible, but the entire time I was reading about it, I also thought Matilda Krim was horrible in her own right. The NY Times loves her, which is a tell in itself. Krim is off. Actually, her screaming and acting out at the trial is more authentic than anything she did at the time it happened and in the couple of years following.

I remember that very soon after the murders, in what she said and wrote, Matilda Krim made it really clear that Leo, the son who was killed, was her favorite, the murdered daughter was ok, and the surviving child was her least favorite. She was patting herself on the back for her patience with her surviving child prior to the murders, how she was giving her one on one time, which is why she was away. Who shoves that kind of thing into their reaction to their children's deaths? She was very patronizing writing about everything.

I think that the post at R10 is just R4's way of doubling down on his/her trolling. Capitalizing the controversial/condescending "QUEER" is a big tell.

[quote]Authorities revealed Ortega constantly asks about her own family, but has never mentioned the Krims since her arrest.

This just comes across to me that there is much more to this story. Now, I'm in no way justifying these murders, but there is obviously a deep-seeded hatred there whether it is justified or not.

It's a far stretch, and I'm sure that I'll get some flak for it, but this incident is reminding me of one of my favorite Civil War quotes by Mary Chestnut (I believe); "What will they do to us given what we have done to them."

Marina Krim is a difficult, demanding, dislikable person. The nanny made $18 per hour, so about $32,000 per year.

I'm wondering how the Krims tolerated having such an awful nanny - did she hide her true personality in front of them? I mean, if people seeing her out in public could tell she was a nasty piece of work, why did the Krims miss it?

My next door neighbour stabbed her young daughter and herself one night, she seemed perfectly normal before doing it.

We really don't know what she made unless we've seen her tax forms. It depends on the hours and weeks she worked. Any benefits come with it? At the Krim's income level why wouldn't you set a yearly income with generous benefits. That's how you get quality child care. Perhaps they were stretching their budget just to afford a comfortable (luxury for some of you) NYC lifestyle.

[quote]At the Krim's income level why wouldn't you set a yearly income with generous benefits.

LOL! That's RARELY how it works though! People who read the WSJJ regularly know that each year they would do a same themed piece ie insurance fraud, costs of divorce, etc. Well, I remember decades ago they did a piece on household help--and NEVER did it again! It was EYE-OPENING how badly many people treated their help. Over worked, not enough food, no transportation in case of emergency etc.

Very true, I work in an affluent town and on Mondays you can see a steady parade of nannies and cleaners walking on the highway, no safety lines, cars whizzing by dangerously close, to get to their employers fancy estates. They don't give a shit about them.

During the O.J. Simpson trial, I recall one of the witnesses revealed that Nicole Simpson, a former waitress, slapped one of her housekeepers for not performing a request fast enough.

Is the general consensus that Marina is awful, or is that just what DL thinks?

I don’t care for marina but I’m wondering how she’s seen to people outside of DL.

Well, I would imagine that the poorer republications picture her when they complain about elitist "lib'rals"

I googled her and a bunch of different pictures with her next to celebrities pop up. She looks like she’s having the time of her life. I guess these are charity events but...

R156 I’m not sure what you mean. But I’m asking what the general consensus (not political) is on Marina’s character.

R150, I think the Krims didn’t feel like going through the hassle of finding and training a new nanny.

Also, people are very defensive about their nannies. My SIL has been through a few. One was especially cunty. The child didn’t like her, the child’s school bus driver had complained about her, *I* mentioned something and that bitch was employed until she quit. Because she was white and had a college degree. You don’t criticize another mom’s nanny. It never goes well. I’ve had someone’s nanny shake me down for money and I didn’t bother telling the mom.

A friend’s nanny overdosed in her apartment. There were signs. None of the moms or other nannies who’d had encounters with her had anything nice to say about her.

I could go on and on about the relationship between families and nannies. I’ve seen some awful stuff on both sides. Usually it’s mild stuff, nothing like THIS, but it’s interesting.

Ortega needs to be in jail for life, but that Krim woman is no picnic.

Anyone here remember the ending to this 2001 film?

I don't envy whoever has seen, or will be looking at the crime scene photos. That kind of psychotic rage and strength might get the nanny NGI.

Or you could just *SPOILER ALERT* it and just tell us R160 as it's Oscar weekend and I'm not gonna watch it.

This is a redrum thread, you dodos.

I am pretty sure that MATILDA Krim was the AIDS doctor who lead AMFAR.

The mother in this case is Marina Krim.

I bet the krims didn't pay the nanny enough or feed her. She snapped for a reason.

[quote] LOL! That's RARELY how it works though!

I have known professional couples who do this. They're not rich but together they make very good money. Mid to upper 6 figures combined. They pay a yearly salary with health insurance, vacation and their share of the FICA. Their child care is important to them and they are willing to pay to keep a great child carer. This is not a part of your budget you should be scrimping on.

That;s GREAT R166. But, that's RARELY how it works. I loved this one;

"Chavez was President George W. Bush’s choice for Labor secretary but withdrew her nomination in 2001 after disclosing that an undocumented immigrant had lived in her house for two years and had done some cleaning for her. Chavez said she never employed the woman but had given her spending money. To others, however, the arrangement sounded like the woman was her hired housekeeper."

R141 The killer admitted in court that it was a robbery. He admitted to lying to police when he said that she had complained about the noise.

Anyone can edit Wikipedia pages. They are not always accurate.

I wouldn't entrust my cat to sitters, let alone children (if I had them).

I will pretend that R159 is a parody post.

R162 Lazy Shiftless Millennial

Skating on the thin ice of difficult circumstance, Nessie has learned she might as well dance.

^^Not bad for 8 y/o.

Wow, holy crap! I think that's pretty damn amazing for an 8-y.o.!

Well goodness that is Nessie. I thought it was just some kid with the same name. I hope this is her choice and she enjoys it. And not her mom's. But of course mom has a Youtube channel.

And yes she is very good.

Run, kid. Run for your life.

The parents started a non-profit to teach people to channel adversity into creativity. Then she goes to court and promptly loses her shit, and things will probably get worse as the trial progresses. Her behaviour may cause spectators to think she is not proberly honoring the memory of her children, make her seem bitter and vengeful.

I think the husband has quit his job. Is he running the non-profit full-time? I wonder if he draws a salary, and if he does, how much.

^makes her seem

Her histrionics make her seem like a stupid cunt.

Which is maddening, because her children deserve better than that.

Then again, I’m a WASP. We think keeping one’s composure honors the memory of those who’ve passed. Not all cultures believe that.

Marina Krim gets one outburst because she has lived with the trauma for five years and this was the first time she saw the nanny since the murders. But she should shut up now, and be medicated if she needs it to give testimony, or she might get that nanny acquitted! A friend asked me last night if the nanny might have had some relationship with the husband, or even Marina herself, or even both, for Gods' sake!!! Now I'm wondering too. Nothing sexual necessarily. Just an odd, over involved relationship. A poor nanny can steal stuff, but butchering kids is more than revenge. I'm pretty sure their non-profit is how they make a living now. The Lulu and Leo fund holds many fundraisers and has very high visibility and celebrity support. It'a a 501(c)(3) charitable organization. I'm not criticizing the parents for doing this, btw.

If you look around at the comments on other sites, there is a lot of ambivalence about this case. People are horrified by the crime, but can't warm up to Krim. There is the nagging sense that Krim, even though she was not responsible for the murders, nonetheless did something wrong. At Lipstick Alley, several posters pointed out that Krim knew for months that the nanny "hated" her (Krim's own testimony), yet didn't dismiss her.

I want someone to explain how the mother's losing her shit while testifying might cause a mistrial or earn the nanny an appeal.

It has to be really hard to deal with knowing that your nanny hated you so much that she butchered 2 of your kids.

The nanny could very well have schizophrenia but her financial problems sounded incredibly stressful- hard paying rent, trying to sell cosmetics and a woman owing you money for the cosmetics you had frronted her to sell, supporting her son, etc.

$15/hr was the lowest going rate in the Upper Westside for babysitting ONE child. She babysat 3 kids under age 8 for $18/hr . Add Marina's bitchiness into the mix and it became deadly.

The parents thought they were helping the nanny by paying her extra to be a cleaning lady as well as babysitter. I bet they weren't paying her much extra. Babysitting is hard work. Housecleaning on top of that that is incredibly hard work.

During Marina's testimony , she said the nanny was a "housekeeper." The nanny leaned over to her attorney and said, "NO!"

I've experienced the strange UWS nanny/kids/parents set up. Most of the nannies are immigrants and many have been with the kids since they were born. There is a hierarchy of nannies --- they don't really like outsiders coming into their territory.

There are a few bratty kids, and one complete psycho kid I encountered, but really most of the kids were fun and accepting. With a few exceptions, it is the parents are who are total assholes---helicopter parents (mostly single mothers) who infantilize their kids. Very hardened, weathered, anorexic bitches. The dads were dorks and not really present.

The schools are wretched.

I am grateful my parents were wonderful and that I grew up in CA when I did. I appreciate my parents so much for all they did for our family and they weren't materialistic assholes.

R183, thanks for recounting the trial so far.

[quote]At Lipstick Alley, several posters pointed out that Krim knew for months that the nanny "hated" her (Krim's own testimony), yet didn't dismiss her.

Ew. Please go back there and never come back.

No one cares that the mother lost her shit. Normal people, especially parents, understand and can relate to her---the horror she endured because of that evil cunt.

You'd all be dragging her just as much (more even) if she sat there stoically.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[Quote]I want someone to explain how the mother's losing her shit while testifying might cause a mistrial or earn the nanny an appeal.

In the court of public opinion, it paints a picture of the mother's tempranent, the temprament the defense could argue an overworked, underpaid Ortega had to endure on a daily basis, in the midst if her own personal life unraveling. IIRC, Marina was criticized for having a nanny even though she was a stay-at-home mom. Several posters on here dragged her for not working when the incident first occurred.

Of course, anyone will be empathetic to the horror of the Krim's kids being savagely murdered. It's understandable that when testifying, Marina would be crying and emotional.

For me, it was when she kept saying things directed at the nanny like, "You're disgusting." "You're evil." "You like this" and she said the nanny's family were "liars" and "disgusting." I just felt like these outbursts could be grounds for a mistrial or used as grounds for an appeal. The nanny needs to be held accountable for these brutal murders and for wrecking the lives of the Krim family.

I would have moved back to CA (where the Krims are from) and started life anew. For me, it would be too painful to stay in New York.

I think I saw a costumed Nessie with a little friend on the UWS Halloween block party street several Halloweens ago. She looked a lot like Lulu. She was happy and laughing. She smiled at me and proudly showed off her costume. I may have taken her photo. I thought, "Well, why cut her off from her old friends in the neighborhood? It wasn't her fault what happened."

^^^ eta. The Krims didn't return to their apt after the murders. They moved to the Village, I think, or somewhere downtown.

We live in a culture of victimhood. The blogger Mom is the victim, not her kids, even though she was ultimately responsible for their well being. The mom is responsible for leaving them with a monster. But she is screaming and wailing as the victim- I think that’s what’s distasteful for we, the judgemental.

^temperament

[Quote]Of course, anyone will be empathetic to the horror of the Krim's kids being savagely murdered. It's understandable that when testifying, Marina would be crying and emotional.

Not necessarily, just look at the thread circulating on here about the two adults who physically attacked a 2 year-old for talking. Most posters are siding with the attackers. If a lawyer can paint the mother as an irrational shrew and the children as free range, out of control, brats, it could make the jury more sympathetic to Ortega.

[quote]I think that’s what’s distasteful for we, the judgemental.

No one cares what you find distasteful about a woman who witnessed the brutal murder of her children. She can act out in any way she wants as far as I'm concerned.

BTW, since we're being "judgmental"---Oh, dear!

[quote] If a lawyer can paint the mother as an irrational shrew and the children as free range, out of control, brats, it could make the jury more sympathetic to Ortega.

No. Deranged, psychopathic jurors and those with IQs below 70 will be eliminated early on in the screening.

But R188, the people who said that the Mommy Blogger's emotional outbursts at the trial weren't talking about the court of public opinion, they were talking about the court of law. Some people here seemed to think that Krim's behavior might result in a mistrial or an appeal.

They were just talking about their asses, weren't they.

R194, I’m just trying to explain the reason some people lack sympathy for the Mom. But I love that you believe the nanny’s motive was “she was jealous”. Every awful woman I’ve ever known truly believes the people who hate them were jealous.

R197, where did I say anything in my post at R194 about jealousy?

You really are disturbed if you think the actions of a psychotic baby butcher can be remotely justified---even a little bit, simply because the mother of the slaughtered children is a bitchy and annoying uber-frau.

Here's a link from our very first thread on this incident, this person has amazing insight, imo.

Wow.

Prosecutor's opening statement.

I worked with Krim (the father) many years ago and briefly met Marina and the three kids at a company function.

First off, they are not hugely affluent by New York standards. Yes, he had a successful career but he worked in MEDIA— not one of the most high-paying professions in Manhattan. Bankers, traders, portfolio managers, lawyers make more.

$10k gets you a decent three bedroom on the island of Manhattan. It’s not a luxurious huge apartment. $20k a month gets you a very spacious three bedroom in a high end building.

They were under-paying the baby absurdly at below $20 an hour for watching three kids. In my view that could have been a reason to keep her on —- it would have been difficult to find someone else willing to work for such a low rate. They clearly did not find Nanny through an agency or placement service that does background checks and helps handle employment issues, otherwise they would have been having more professional and monitored discussions with the agency re: the nanny’s job performance.

I find the “family trip” to visit nanny’s family in DR uncomfortable and weird. There should be boundaries and some respect in these relationships. It sounds like the Krims narcissistically may have believed Nanny would be thrilled to entertain them in the DR for a week. The polite thing to do would be to skip Nanny’s geneous offer of hosting them for a trip and give Nanny a small but tidy cash bonus for her work for the family.

Moms who blog/brag constantly about how special and wonderful their children are and all their precious little moments and artwork and classes and vocabulary .....For me, it’s a sign of Mom being a nasty piece of work. I’m not surprised Miss Perfect Mom becomes hysterical, ranting and trashy in the courtroom. I personally think moms in Manhattan overdo it with the toddler classes too, but I guess in the Krims’ highly educated Harvard mindset it’s never too early to start getting focused.

The Nanny was clearly growing increasingly mentally ill an had serious mental health issues. If not schizoid or Paranoid illness, it could also have been antisocial personality disorder or depression with psychosis. I find it baffling that the Krims overlooked it although it may have been that familiarity of everyday encounters led them to gloss over the bigger picture that the woman was disintegrating.

I hope she spends the rest of her life in prison.

I'm going to write a disclaimer that I have been a Forensic Psychiatrist since1985. But this is not a professional opinion. I've seen cases like this one and much, much worse. I met many parents who killed their own kids ( but mostly execution style with guns ) and kids who killed their parents. And self-mutilation where people chopped off their faces, toes, tongues and fingers because they were angry at their parents.

I got to read all their charts, court testimony, see pictures of crime scenes and little kid bodies and all sorts of other stuff. As I got used to the "patient charts in the Room of Pain" as I called it, I noticed that NGI is extremely difficult to get. It depends on one thing only: the state of mind of the murderer at exactly the moment of the murder. You can expect huge amounts of coming anger over all the social issues in this case.

Good/selfish mother, bad nanny, cheap parents, abused nanny, immigrant issues, the nanny's psych history over the last five years (in custody). Look at how angry this thread becomes at times. I remember being very angry over the NGI patients because I wanted them all dead. I needed a lot of consultations with colleagues. And so will you all as the lawyers fight it out in court to sway yours' and the jurys opinion.

Had the nanny stabbed a kid or two once or twice, you could have attributed that to anger, maybe revenge, or even if she had kidnapped the kids. But the violence behind the chopped up bodies of the kids makes me think that the nanny could have been very mentally ill at the time. It is very hard to kill a human, even a small one, and only a monster in a psychotic rage could have continued to hurt those screaming, bleeding children and then nearly cutting off their heads. You will not be able to choose sides but you will try and it will be useless. You will be able to see the various aggravating and mitigating factors. I like this thread and everyone's opinion without the insults and anger.

I'm used to putting myself in the heads of the murderers and the victims. But I think I'm done for tonight.

The fact that the mother/employer/blogger is an extremely annoying person would only be relevant to the trial I she were the murder victim. But she's not, two totally helpless and innocent people were killed instead, and the fact that their mother gets on the Datalounge's nerves is irrelevant to the verdict. Killing small children is a crime where no claim of self-defense or abuse recieved can possibly be relevant, the only defense can be that of insanity.

But then, some of you make a hobby of finding the "frau" in every terrible situation and heaping blame on her, no matter how tangential to the tragedy her actions were. Your thinking is very skewed.

Finally some sanity @ R204.

I'm waiting for the mommy haters to find the Ruthie Miles thread, so they can blame her for 'allowing' her 4 yr old daughter to be mowed down by a runaway car in NYC. Here, I'll help get you started:

"Why wasn't she paying closer attention to her kid?"

"Children shouldn't be allowed to walk anywhere in the city without a leash."

"She was walking home from church when it happened. She must be a deplorable. She deserved it."

Very emotionally chrarged and surely a hot button issue.

Great read at r199 -harsh to the parents but very true.

from the comments section:

"The American Rich are creating a pre-French Revolutionary situation in this country, and they are creating a French Revolutionary-type Paris Mob. If I am correct about that, then they (and their wish-they-were-rich suckups like yourself) will see this happen more and more and morenmore . . . in more places."

The nanny didn't agree to host them in the Dominican Republic. The went there on vacation. She took their offer of a free ticket, thinking she would get to spend time with her family. Instead, she wound up watching the children while the parents went off to enjoy their holiday.

Bullshit. Outrageously false equivalency. People were starving during the French Revolution. There were no social safety nets at all. The rich in the US in 2018 pay 40% of their income in taxes and many (most?) contribute another 10% to charitable organizations. Much of that money goes to housing, feeding, clothing and educating the poor.

Very true R209. However, if you factor in today’s inflated sense of entitlement, then America’s poor en masse probably perceive themselves to be just as deprived as pre-revolution French peasantry.

Does anyone have the link to the original DL thread on this case?

True, R210. Now, with social media, everyone is exposed 24/7 to the excesses of the rich and trashy. Dimwit Kylie Kardashian comes to mind. She's a billionaire. I'm sure her millions of fans are seething with jealousy and thinking, "why her? why not me?" But that's not enough to move anyone to revolution who isn't truly suffering. The most they will do is trash talk her on-line and try to make her cry.

For R211, from 2012:

Delusional blogger @ R199 gets smacked down in the comments:

[quote]I knew or rather feared where you were going with this the other day, just another case for venting your economic woes, explaining…of course, the murderer--the baby killer had good reasons to bleed your babies to death! Ten or twenty thousand dollars could have saved your sweet children from a killer’s painful stabbings. To say that, to think that, to write that, is itself to reach a level of such shameful, such disgusting, such inhuman, such cruel, such irresponsible horror of lowliness…! Take it back as all wrong. While you still can, please…or it will haunt you forever.

Thanks r213! I appreciate it!

If you think that in today's world the poor don't have the right to feel angry and afraid think again. For one thing they (the normal, not Deplorable poor) know it's just a matter of time before their healthcare, housing and even food are going to get taken away or cut drastically to where their suffering will be horrifying. They also know how much they are looked down on, like by so many here on DL. They know people begrudge them every penny of the tax dollars spent on them and it really is pennies. The dollars go to the military and the top 1%, which somehow no one minds getting their money. They know people hate them if they use their food stamp card to by healthy food as it's too good for them, or cheap crappy food, oh now they're wasting my tax money. They know if it were up to so many they would have no roof over their heads, no medical care, no food, no education, no clothes, no phone, no electricity, no anything.

Try living in their shoes for a few years and see if you don't feel intense despair and rage.

Nobody in this country lives under the dire conditions you describe. That describes refugees from very poor countries. And even they get help, though it is nominal. I don’t think anynone here wants to mistreat people “no food, no clothes”. Whose food is being taken away?

Radical left fairytale, R217. To them "the poor" are always noble, hardworking, long suffering slaves who can't get a break no matter how hard they try. They are never people who have been given every opportunity and squandered it. They are never addicts, scammers, grifters and thieves. They are never lazy parasites who don't really want to work. They never willfully spawn eight kids with no way to support them.

I wonder what the nanny's toxicology showed. She also complained of visual and tactile (the Devil touched her) hallucinations before the murders. That's a big sign of faking unless she's hallucinating from some major drug. She also claims to remember nothing. Dissociation is not that common in sudden psychosis. This caused a problem with one of the psychiatrists who saw her too.

I said, R217, they know it's going to happen, or just fear it is. It is what our current politicians want to do to them and if you haven't seen posts here begrudging the poor everything then you just haven't been paying attention. DL is just a slice of life. It's that way all over. I heard these women eating in a restaurant no less, saying how the poor school children should not be given free lunches. One evil bitch specifically said "I don't want my tax dollars going for that. I take care of my own children" as she stuffed an 8 ounce sirloin burger down her throat along with fries and an expensive ice coffee and then later went on to talk about the 3 new smart TVs her husband got for the children's rooms. Yes, there are plenty of people who would deny little children as much as a lousy school lunch.

I was a Social Worker. I still keep in touch with people from my department. I know what living hand to mouth on government money does for those who are truly hopeless as they cannot, not don't want to, but cannot work, like the severely disabled and elderly or older workers who were let go and now cannot get hired no matter how many interviews they go to, with the paperwork to prove that they did indeed go job hunting sometimes 5 days a week. You try living on 750 dollars a month as the disabled poor do on SSI, those on welfare get less than half of that and only for a few years out of their lifetime. Try paying rent and utilities and trying to stay clean out of that. Try it. Try living on less than 50 dollars a week for food, especially if you have medical conditions that require healthier foods. Try finding money for all the luxuries that food stamps and medicaid doesn't pay for like otc medications and toilet paper, any paper products, laundry and laundry detergent, razors/blades, deodorant, feminine needs for younger women, transportation.

Try spending your last 6 dollars on public transit to go to a welfare or HRA center or food stamp office as most things cannot be done on the phone, that is if a person can ever get through, only to get there when they open in the morning and find out at 4:45 pm that you cannot be seen that day and will have to come back tomorrow or next week if it's Friday. No imagine your electricity has been turned off and you now have to go another 3-4 days at least without electricity. Imagine if you are 89 years old and you have to stumble around in the dark. HRA does not supply candles or flashlights or batteries and they are not cheap, at least the latter.

The main thing about being poor is fear. Even if the worst doesn't happen, you are always living in terror that it will. Try to imagine what that does to people. Go to classrooms with many poor students and see how depressed those kids are and yes, how many of them are hungry, especially at the end of the month.

You really don't have a clue unless you've been there and been there recently as the way this country is now the poor have every right to be terrified, with Trump, Ryan and their likes in charge.

Thanks R218. You proved my point.

Well, this is what happens when women choose career over real, hands-on motherhood..

Had she been home caring for the little ones herself, no such thing would have happened.

(Also, the children needed guns.)

Thank you for your post, R203.

[quote]R13 All you Mommy cunts need to fucking go back to fucking iVillage where you fucking belong. You’re fucking not welcome here you fucking cunts.

STFU

and see a therapist

[quote]R26 Get out of Datalounge, ladies. YOU 👏 ARE 👏 NOT 👏 WANTED 👏 HERE

It's not your site, whoever you are.

It's Muriel's.

Dark lesbians

Is she still blogging?? Is this the surviving child??

As one of the commenters at the blog notes, there are VERY few happy nannies. I am 100% qualified to speak about this. I’m a parent on the UES and have spent lots of time with both moms and nannies. I’ve heard the complaints on both sides. The conclusion I’ve come to is that both sides have valid concerns and both sides have been exploited, depending. My other conclusion is that I made the right choice for me, which was to care for my own children, myself.

I can think of three nannies who have been satisfied enough with the work. They are all American citizens, college grads and are paid above the average wage. They have an advantage of being white (one is Latina) and can walk away and find another job in a heartbeat. Therefore, they have obvious power in negotiatons with their employers.

It should have been a lesson to everyone, but nothing has changed. People are still awful and it’s always the children who suffer.

Ortega should burn for eternity, and Krim is twisted in her own way. Glib before, a showy martyr now. I wish like hell this story had a happier ending.

[quote]R42 I live around the corner from the building where it happened. I used to see this freak out on the street all the time. She was a nasty piece of work, spitting at people walking their dogs, cursing and yelling at people on the street to get out of her way....

I am surprised a mother would act this way (?)

What do we think of Mr. Krim? Ought to be handsome, but doesn’t make it, I say.

Ortega is college educated and an American citizen. Her family while not rich by American standards, ran a successful bodega in the Dominican Republic. It's interesting that Ortega could have just applied for welfare and public housing, but she chose not to. Pride? This would have been very easy to do especially since she her son, who she enrolled in private school, had recently joined her in NY.

A doctor in the hospital prescribed an anti-psychotic drug to treat her. That fact, coupled with the revelation that she was under psychiatric care and ignored her doctor's recommendation to continue treatment, could bolster the insanity defense.

R230- Sadly, I agree with you. R-223 You’re welcome.

[quote]Ortega could have just applied for welfare and public housing, but she chose not to.

You make a lot of assumptions here without fully knowing what her circumstances are. While anything is possible, I'm sure that you heard about the scenario of how some people (undeserving) can somehow get social services while those who REALLY need it can't. You don't know if she tried and was denied--and many times there are those who are denied because they work, or any other reason.

Thank you, R220. So many assholes here love to look down on the poor and heap scorn on their heads, and they have zero idea what it's like to be poor. It's terrifying, always knowing that all it takes to lose the little you have is a twist of fate that's put of your control - an illness, a layoff, an election, an assault, a relationship loss, etc. One little change and you're put on the street with no real hope of regaining anything lost.

Today's poor may not be literally starving en masse, today food is plentiful and it's housing that's beyond reach for many, and one step away from unavailable for millions, while Trump flaunts his wealth and takes away basic medical care.

Today's

R233, it would have come out if she had applied for welfare and was denied. In spite of strict Hipaa laws, don't we know everything about her medical history?

R223-Glad you liked it.

[quote]it would have come out if she had applied for welfare and was denied.

That's not necessarily true. We know about the horrific act. We know about her mental state and that she was under stress, etc. But, I have yet to read any type of in-depth story about the nanny's life and what she might have been going through.

R237, you missed the blog her family started right after her arrest, chronicling, in minutiae, Otega's everyday struggles. At any rate, we just have to wait for this media circus of a trial to get underway to get some answers.

once the nanny was refused a wage increase and began acting shady , it was time to fire her and have the locks changed.

I'll accept that R238. In fact I have to go back and read many of these postings. It's a very good discussion from what I can see. Some of the postings are simply too long to read as one is trying to work. That's not a complaint but just a point of my probably missing some things. But, there are certain lines that stick in my mind. Like the posting of R202.

[quote]First off, they are not hugely affluent by New York standards. Yes, he had a successful career but he worked in MEDIA— not one of the most high-paying professions in Manhattan. Bankers, traders, portfolio managers, lawyers make more. $10k gets you a decent three bedroom on the island of Manhattan. It’s not a luxurious huge apartment. $20k a month gets you a very spacious three bedroom in a high end building.

The poster is 100% correct but what struck me is how flippant the comment came across to me. For the working poor, to be able to even think about paying $10K a month is like hitting the lottery ticket! Then on top of that food, transportation, care for their own children, etc. Many of them are just struggling to pay $1300-1500 a month for not the best of housing at all and barely getting to work and more difficulties like some of those the poor face as noted by R220.

My point; There's more here. Once again, I'm not trying to justify the murders and how awful they were. But, we don't know what type of stress (beyond stress) this nanny was order that caused her to snap.

R4, Liar. No mother would write that she would be "very sad" if her children were "murdered." A real mother would be devastated, prostrate, unable even to post those terrible words.

"Very sad" is when your old dog dies.

Can we all just stop thinking anyone has to say they are't justifying the murders. Not one person has said that.

There are mitigating factors and aggravating factors here and they are factors any court has to consider and weigh. That's how these cases are decided and how sentencings are decided.

It seems to me, a defense attorney, that there were mental health issues involved at the time of the offenses. Many of the factors we are considering may have played a role in what drove the defendant to commit these crimes. But as mentioned upthread, it near impossible to win an NGI defense no matter how justified it is. This may be one of those times. I feel terrible for everyone, including the nanny and her family. Trying to suggest she is some monster is simply ignorant. There is value in trying to sort through the contributing factors no matter how distasteful it seems to either "sides". Preventing these things from recurring should be the goal - but to do that you have to look at the cold hard facts. Not everyone would behave as the Krims have in such cases and, of course, I understand people sympathizing, but someone has to be impartial.

[quote]R242 I understand people sympathizing, but someone has to be impartial.

That is for DL to decide, little miss!

Nessie is a terrific skater!

[quote]There is value in trying to sort through the contributing factors no matter how distasteful it seems to either "sides". Preventing these things from recurring should be the goal

Very, VERY, good point! As someone noted up thread, that once an issue of salary became contentious, that might have been the time to look for other options.

[quote]Many of them are just struggling to pay $1300-1500 a month for not the best of housing at all and barely getting to work and more difficulties like some of those the poor face as noted by [R220].

And? When I was younger I wanted to live in NYC. I couldn't afford it, so I didn't. You don't get to make the choice to accept a position at an agreed rate of pay, in one of the most expensive cities in the world, and then whine later that you can't pay the bills. Quit and get a better paying job, get a second job or move somewhere else.

Yea, look at all the jobs I got. I still paid my rent and could afford groovy clothes.

R246's thought process exemplifies what is so seriously wrong with this country.

Great thread so far! Can the forensic psychologist please come back with more insight?

Was the nanny a sociopath (like an actual textbook one)?

She seems to have no conscience, has never expressed remorse, and immediately after waking from the medically induced coma the hospital put her in after the murders, law enforcement noted that she only asked about *her own* family, never mentioned the Krim kids she just butchered, and only brought up the Krim family to complain about how little she was being paid and how “They asked me to do housework...I *don’t* do housework!” (This is in the hospital).

She’s still complaining about them after she took their children away from them by murder? Still bitter at them. What kind of person thinks that way?

R217

Are you saying that no one in this country lives under dire conditions of poverty? You are hopelessly out of touch.

I live on the Upper Westside near where the murders took place. You see extremes in this area --- original inhabitants of the neighborhood who are mostly poor, Jewish, black, Puerto Rican, Dominican, many elderly and now the new influx of Wall St hedgefund assholes with their bitchy wives and double-wide strollers.

When you are having trouble buying food, it's not easy seeing these Lulumon-wearing wives rolling their $700 strollers and hearing them bragging about their weekends at their country houses in the Hamptons.

No one can excuse the nanny for slaughtering these 2 babies and ruining the lives of the surviving family members no matter how awful the mommy's blogging was and is...

R249, O.K., I'm not a forensic psychologist, but I'm pretty sure people don't suddenly turn sociopathic in middle age. If the nanny really was a sociopath, there would be decades of sociopathic behavior to support that diagnosis. Her actions after the killings seems consistent with someone who could not face what she had done -- or with someone who wanted to avoid making any self-incriminating statements.

R220

Thank you! As Sugarman said on 60 Minutes, " There is no shame in being poor."

Wall St's fraud destroyed my family and what we worked for our whole lives. I see many people struggling. Financial and medical stress are the worst stress in the world.

R246, you'll be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

FYI the average poor person doesn't have enough money to quit one job and find another or move, because they're POOR, which means they don't have the money for first-and-last-month's rent in a new town lying around, or the money to be unemployed for however long it takes to find another job once they've quit the bad one. Because they're POOR, which means they don't have enough money for anything other than survival, or a hell of a lot of necessities.

R240

We do know what stress the nanny was under. She was evicted from her apt, had been ripped off by a woman to whom she had fronted cosmetics to sell, had her son living with her and needed more money.. She was being very underpaid for the going neighborhood rates. $15/hr was the low end for watching ONE child. She was getting paid $18 for watching 3 kids.

I think the art foundation is a wonderful idea but I hope the parents didn't choose to stay in NYC in order to draw salaries from the foundation. If they had returned to CA (which I would have done), no one would know anything about them or the tragedy.

Say it, R253 !

Poor R248 just doesn't get it. You don't give people raises because they have a need (or perceive one). You give employees raises based on the value they provide, their performance and what the market demands. If all the nannies in NYC with similar work experience are making $40k per year, you don't pay yours $70k because she says she "needs" the money.

R256

You don't pay your nanny $18/hr for THREE kids under the age of 8, when the going rate for the neighborhood (on the low side) is $15/hr for ONE child.

[quote]We do know what stress the nanny was under. She was evicted from her apt, had been ripped off by a woman to whom she had fronted cosmetics to sell, had her son living with her and needed more money.. She was being very underpaid for the going neighborhood rates. $15/hr was the low end for watching ONE child. She was getting paid $18 for watching 3 kids.

We know some of the stress that the nanny was under. Do we know the depth of her loneliness--if it existed? Do we know her desires of wanting more and seeing no way to obtain it? Do we know if she had lost and and all hope? Factors like that can torture a mind.

It's so easy to simply say "work harder" or "get a better job", etc. But, as the idiom goes; "It's easier said than done."

If she was so under paid she was free to find another job making the going rate for nannys. From what I know, the demand for good child care is fierce in NYC. She wasn't shackled to the Krims.

[quote]She seems to have no conscience, has never expressed remorse, and immediately after waking from the medically induced coma the hospital put her in after the murders, law enforcement noted that she only asked about *her own* family, never mentioned the Krim kids she just butchered, and only brought up the Krim family to complain about how little she was being paid and how “They asked me to do housework...I *don’t* do housework!” (This is in the hospital). She’s still complaining about them after she took their children away from them by murder? Still bitter at them. What kind of person thinks that way?

A evil psychopath, that's who.

[quote]From what I know, the demand for good child care is fierce in NYC.

It is. And, that's why if you have someone good one is not so willing to let the person go. These nannies need good references, etc. Would someone stop a person from getting a better job? It has happened.

I know someone who is a multi-millionaire (on the level of contributing to build a library... with their name prominently displayed, of course) Where did they solicit for help for their household and children? Not with reputable agencies that do extensive background checks and charge fees. Not with agencies that that negotiated that their referrals received competitive pay and benefits. They used Craig's List!

I won't bother going into what they required of the person or how many they had to go through to find those "special"ones that they liked and fit well with the family.

R259 Sorry, but I doubt you have any idea what it's like. I do. I spent a year supplementing my earnings as an artist by watching kids in the same neighborhood as the killer nanny. i was actually babysitting the night of the murders and heard the police helicopter circling forever. I watched 2 darling girls and one psycho boy (3 different families). I am still haunted by my experiences watching the psycho boy and his enabling mom. It wasn't worth it.

Sorry, but I don't think you know what it's like . I do. I spent a year watch

^^^ sorry for the double sentence

I've always wondered what the Bradys paid Alice.

[quote]you'll be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

LOL. Blowing the dust off that sad old threat again, huh? A decade ago it was the guillotine that was waiting for me. Glad to see you're trying to freshen things up a bit. When will the revolution come?

She spent many months In the forensic psych unit at Elmhurst, a city hospital in Queens. A very tough unit, run by Ryker's, but she was universally pitied and treated very gently by staff and patients alike. Very fragile, wouldn't eat, weighed maybe 85 lbs (she's put on an enormous amount of weight). She had come from medical and had been trached so her self stabbing had been severe. Everyone called her Yoyo. She was mostly very quiet, sat with the other women but stared blankly, internally preoccupied. She had been diagnosed with schizophrenia as a teenager and had a long history of noncompliance with meds (had no health insurance, probably didn't have the time or money for regular doc visits). In more lucid moments, she liked to color in art therapy . She was meek, polite and never showed any aggression. If she's a sociopath, it's a great act. But she struck me as very broken and unable to care for herself. Of course it was a long time ago and I didn't see her often.

R266

Interesting but it sounds like you are committing a HIPPA violation.

[quote]She had been diagnosed with schizophrenia as a teenager

WTF? How does someone like this get a job watching kids?

That is definitely a HIPAA violation. Perhaps you can remove it. Though we can’t verify what you are saying, and you did not spell Rikers correctly, this is still inappropriate.

Hmmm....interesting. Let's all worry about Stabbin' Nanny's HIPAA rights. No concern at all for the "violation" of two dead toddlers though.

Re: HIPAA -- This woman is on trial for murder. I don't think that she can be injured by R266's statements. In fact, if what was said is true, it will be used at the trial.

And, I forgot to add, all of her medical records are probably in the public record already.

R27, stop. We truly don't need them here. Shut the fuck up.

Has Marina ever mentioned in an interview about the criticism she’s received online? Does she know she’s disliked, immensely?

[quote]R270 No concern at all for the "violation" of two dead toddlers though.

I don't like kids that much.

BUMP

I thought that the part in the mother’s testimony about how she noticed the nanny becoming increasingly “arrogant” and haughty (including in her facial expressions) in the days before the murders was interesting....

Would “revenge” even be the right way to express what the nanny did? It sounds more like a downright demonic level of passive aggressiveness on the nanny’s part against the mother...

We are assuming R266 is treating her or is staff. Maybe not. Could be a visitor to her or to another patient.

[quote] I thought that the part in the mother’s testimony about how she noticed the nanny becoming increasingly “arrogant” and haughty (including in her facial expressions) in the days before the murders was interesting....

We can assume Krim is going to characterize the nanny's actions in a way to bolster a premeditated assault and because she was "jealous" or whatever the prosecution line is. Remember she has been thoroughly prepared by the prosecution including practice direct and cross examinations and choice of words. What Krim is describing as arrogant and haughty may have been attempts by the nanny to refuse certain things which Krim was used to her always saying yes to. Attempts by the nanny to express what she was going through. Krim must know by now the nanny's prior mental health history - of course the prosecution has had access to it by now. So you can expect government witnesses to do and say and characterize what they can to refute any notion she was mentally ill.

I expect the Krims to hate her and to want her held accountsble but they seem beyond this. They want to demonize her and seem willing to skirt ethical behavior to achieve their pound of flesh. I think they, or at least Marina, are so self-involved that they are incapable of self examination and empathy. I think Krim's outbursts, unless they were properly sanctioned by the judge and the jury was properly instructed to ignore them, will come back to haunt the judge - that is absolutely conduct that calls for a mistrial.

R279, how can "outbursts" cause a mistrial? I've asked to have this explained before, and nobody could explain.

R280 it could prejudice the jury into forming an unfair opinion of the mother. They witness a snarling and foaming at the mouth Marina and might assume that 2 second sound-byte is representative of how she interacted with Ortega. Plus, she can't go to court and carry on like that or blurt out whatever she wants. It's the judge's job to keep order and give structure to the proceedings.

[quote]I expect the Krims to hate her and to want her held accountsble but they seem beyond this. They want to demonize her and seem willing to skirt ethical behavior to achieve their pound of flesh. I think they, or at least Marina, are so self-involved that they are incapable of self examination and empathy.

Empathy? For a woman who nearly decapitated their babies? Oh, my sides! Please tell me you're joking. LOLOLOLOL.

Good morning R276. I thought you meant someone else when you said forensic psychologist. I’m a psychiatrist but I guess you meant me, right?

I remember you asked about psychopathy. In most cases, it is evident from childhood. The kids are a behavior disaster and they show themselves early on. Usually, they end up as petty criminals. They can tailor their behavior and responses to their circumstances. I did a year of Child Psychiatry when I was a baby resident in New York. I still remember one 12 year old with no empathy who was an impossible case. We tried all sorts of medications but nothing worked. He continued on stealing, fighting, violence at home and school,etc. There is no cure for a psychopath. It can be comorbid with other types of disorder, like drug abuse and psychotic illness. You can diagnose it later in life, of course.

The nannys’ lawyers have managed to keep her away from a trial and juries for five years. The nanny has made 90 pretrial shows to the court. The judge is quite upset at the delays and the nannys’ lawyers have found a very young forensic psychiatrist as their defense doc. New York is full of amazing forensic psychiatrists, but so far, no experienced docs have shown themselves for the defense.

There was a long fight over the nannys’ fitness for trial. The excuse from the defense was that “the chart is too big” and they claimed the nanny is not fit for trial. Two older psychiatrists were called in who certified that the nanny is indeed ready for trial. They looked at the nurses’ notes which are extensive. Since nurses watch the patient 24 hrs a day, they are your best resource regarding the patients’ behavior. The nurses notes contradicted how the patient presented herself in interviews. Btw, most of the records are sealed so be very careful of strange people offering inside info on “Yo-yo”. That poorly written account of a lovable, skinny patient also contradicts the information which is available online. The nanny was not seen “responding to internal stimuli” by staff. The patients who respond to internal stimuli (hallucinations) are easy to spot and are not in touch with reality, but they don’t take “breaks” too often and are treated like children by staff. The one sentence stuck with me was that while the nanny claimed to be psychotic and hallucinating, the staff observed her doing a crossword puzzle.(?)

In the last five years, no doubt both sides have had a lot of time to ready for a war. I’m not too confused by the nannys’ motives. She killed the kids the way she did to destroy Marina Krim mentally forever. The nanny was angry at Marina. Very, very psychotic and very, very angry.

[quote]She killed the kids the way she did to destroy Marina Krim mentally forever.

MMPH! Yep! It is just hard for me to grasp how one recovers from such an event--if you ever do. The mind and body are truly powerful instruments. I've always been one to wonder how Jackie Kennedy had the fortitude to go on after her husband's head was nearly blown off and what remained laid in her lap. Just unimaginable.

R281, please tell me in legal terms how Krim's "outbursts" could cause a mistrial or give strength to requests for an appeal.

Because most people would consider it normal for people who have been victims of a hideous crime to be upset and to have difficulty controlling their feelings when discussing the crime - if a man were confronting a school shooter who killed two of his innocent children would you be saying an outburst is wrong and could cause a mistrial? Because some of you do insist on acting as if the mother were the one on trial, although in fact her behavior is actually irrelevant to the question of whether the nanny is sane or insane.

There are reports that Ortega first exhibited mental illness as a teen. Hindsight is 20/ 20, but I wonder why the parents didn't vet the nanny thoroughly. Ortega's sister, a perfect stranger, approached a then pregnant Marina to offer Ortega's services. Marina accepted the offer. The letter of recommendation Marina received was written by one of Ortega's relatives. The Krims always paid in cash, they could have been avoiding creating a paper trail.

Nanny waited until the mother entered the very room before she, the Nanny, stabbed herself SO THAT the mother would be accused of causing all three deaths.

Or maybe the Nanny planned to testify that she was wounded while trying to stop Murderous Mommy.

[quote]She killed the kids the way she did to destroy Marina Krim mentally forever. The nanny was angry at Marina. Very, very psychotic and very, very angry.

Kind of like what drove Diane Schuler to kill her own and her brothers' kids. She had a lot of anger stemming from her mother's abandonment.

R279, REALLY??

"They want to demonize her... "? NS, Sherlock! The woman is a FIEND, a BUTCHER of CHILDREN, literally!

R287 I think an investigation on how the knife entered her throat would show the wounds were self-inflicted, I do wonder why didn’t she kill Marina too?

R290- Because the nanny found a way to torture Marina Krim which is more punishing than death. The nanny is an expert butcher. How did she not destroy her own neck?

R290. She wanted her to live with her pain for the rest of her life.

[R288]: has it ever been established why Diane Shuler did what she did? My sense from the very good Liz Garbus documentary a few years ago is that no one understands what happened but that she possibly had consumed a great deal of vodka before or during the drive and appeared trance-like as she drove onto the exit ramp of the parkway. Nothing in the docu posited that she was trying to "punish" her absent mother.

Yup, Aunt Diane was a black-out alkie, R293. Her car knew the way home (as they say when you drive on autopilot), but it didn't know enough to drive on the right side of the road.

Some black-out drunks don't pass out unconscious. They can walk around, dance, drive, beat someone up.....do all sorts of things they have no memory of the next day. Very scary.

Girls, girls, you're both unsympathetic assholes!

"She killed the kids the way she did to destroy Marina Krim mentally forever. "

Again, how does the mother freaking out on the witness stand equate to a mistrial? Because the crime was intended to destroy her, how does having an outburst on the witness stand interfere with the legal process? People who have been destroyed don't always have the best self-control, after all.

Jesus r296, yes, we get it, that would cause a person to snap. You asked why it could cause a mistrial and we told you, a good defense attorney would argue that her being yelled at and called a demon or whatever could prejudice the jury and when she is found guilty, an appeal will say that exact thing. The point is to cross your t's and dot your i's so that this can't be overturned or appealed. You do that by having a calm trial.

R283

Is there an effective treatment for schizophrenia? I thought it was one of those disorders where nothing really works.

R284 After I posted upthread about why would the parents want to keep working w/ the foundation because the murders will always be forefront in their family's lives, I thought about Jackie Kennedy.

She saw her husband's head blown off and scrambled to retrieve his brain matter on the back of the car. Whatever she needed to get through life (excessive shopping, etc), then that's what she needed to do.

So, I've changed my mind about the parent's and the foundation. How could the dad return to CNBC when something so horrible happened? Nothing CNBC puts out is as important as his family's well-being.

Marina saw her kids butchered. She said that Lulu was staring ahead. Can you imagine seeing that? A male juror was crying at the pictures.

I worry about Nessie. She was there with her mom. Did she see inside the bathroom? Her mother's screams and the ambulance, hospital, funeral and everything else must have been so harrowing.

I hope Nessie really enjoys ice-skating and isn't being pushed. She's really good. She evens does a scratch spin.

typo: parents not parent's ^^^

R298-Schizophrenia symptoms can be alleviated by all those anti-psychotics floating out there. The only thing that is close to a cure is Clozapine. Clozapine requires monthly blood tests but works well. I agree with you about the Krims’ foundation. Whatever gets them through this kind of horror is fine by me. Nessie might forget someday and be an amazing skater.

I just read that the nannys’ phone calls to and from her family were recorded. They can be used against the prisoners legally. The nanny was discussing tiles, painting her apartment, the price of the renovation, and seemed to be having rational conversations with her son. She knew about the sequence of tile and painting and the reason painting had to be done first. The judge used these calls to deem her fit to stand trial. Of course, her lawyers objected. Her lawyer is also not allowed to be present when the psychiatrists who saw the nanny are questioned. I think the nanny is planning on going back to a well-appointed residence very soon.

She also saw a psychologist a couple of days before the murders and he just thought she was anxious and depressed. He said the nanny was neither suicidal or homicidal. She openly “scoffed” at him in court. In the next two days she carried out a well put together plan to murder two young children. She also flubbed some simple psych testing answers in her early interviews. She said the year was 2001 or something. Even the very psychotic know the year. And a few other easy questions which easily separate the psychotic from the delirious patients.

I’m leaning towards psychopathy more than just psychosis. But I’m not sure why.

Does anyone have a link to a good site for those who want to follow the case?

Sadly, no. Scattered all over the net. I looked for very specific things like "which meds at weill cornell yocelyn ortega". Had to type her damn name a hundred times. Or type "nurses' notes" and her name. Or you have me who follows these cases obsessively.

R300, there's a lot we don't know, obviously. For one thing, it's not clear to me that Ortega's plan to murder the children was "well put together." If she were cold-blooded and logical, you'd think she would have either (a) planned to escape after the killings, or (b) bothered to sell the psychologist on the idea that she was unstable, thereby setting up an insanity defense. As it is, the psychologist is in a pretty awkward position: he can't very well testify now that she seemed dangerous when he saw her, because that would have triggered a duty to warn on his part. He HAS to take the position that there was nothing out-of-the-ordinary about her. Of course, he could simply have been unobservant, and not noticed any signs that she was a threat.

hang the bitch and let the mom go at her with an axe.....slowly.

good god. earthling can be nasty creatures.....violent planet.

will tarantino make a flik bout it?

Not sure why some poster doesn't get this. It seems rather obvious to me. The defendant sits there innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt following a fair trial. That is not just a fantasy in court. It is real and almost every action by a judge is to ensure that is a reality.

If something like an emotional outburst unduly prejudices the rights of the defendant to a fair trial then a mistrial may be in order.

It is understandable that the jury, despite its sworn duty to remain impartial, would sympathize with the mother. This outburst seemed planned and continued on beyond what would have been an involuntary momentary emotional lapse. Even an unintentional outburst could give rise to a mistrial.

This judge didn't even break or chastise the witness/government or send the jury out of the room so the witness could compose herself or give an instruction to the jury. He just let it happen. That makes it seems as if the judge agrees with the witness. He may regret this.

A criminal trial is ALL about the rights of the accused standing trial. It is not about the victims. There is time for that if and when the defendant is sentenced.

Link is an example.

In New York State, the burden of proving insanity is on the defendant.

This is not a criminal trial. A guilty defendant is trying to convince the court that she was insane when the crime was committed. This all about the victims. And the correct grammar is “I’m not sure why some posters don’t get this”.

R303- The nannys’ plan was to kill the kids and make Marina see their bodies. That went well. She knew that would hurt Marina, not make her happy. The nanny knew that killing the kids was a bad thing, not a good thing. So she knew right from wrong as she was killing them. These two things will sink her. I don’t think the therapist is lying. There is no way to predict murders and suicides.

[quote] In New York State, the burden of proving insanity is on the defendant

It is always on the defendant in every state.

[quote] This is not a criminal trial. A guilty defendant is trying to convince the court that she was insane when the crime was committed.

What does this mean? Of course it's a criminal trial.

Nicely stated, [R308]. [R309], I think what the earlier poster might have meant is that this proceeding isn't to determine guilt, which is the purpose of a criminal trial. Her culpability isn't at issue; there's no trial. This is a proceeding to establish her state of mind for the purpose of determining whether/how she can be punished.

Please read the page on Findlaw. The url is below.

R310-Thank you.

that god dam insane defense needs to go to hell

But some people really are r313, is there any doubt that Andrea Yates was insane? Not to me there isn't.

Here's Ortega's college photo. Judging from the transformation, I'd say life really did a number on her. But still no excuse for such a heinous act.

For those of you wondering why the Marina saw warning signs but did nothing, maybe she just didn't care. Not saying she is like this, but lots of NY rich (not wealthy) people treat people from the lower clases like shit and don't care how it affects them. They do and say things to their staff that would have the average person looking over their shoulder for the rest of their life. Their home is their castle and the help is to be treated as indentured servants. Never in their wildest imagination could they ever picture any if their victims sticking up for themselves or fighting back.

I'm sure Marina felt very altruistic when she gave Ortega that used jacket she was going to throw out anyway.

Yes, 315. I’ve found that these rich women think they’re all *noblesse oblige” when they’re throwing scraps around. Their attitude is: These people should be GRATEFUL.

I’m among them now, but grew up on the wrong side of the equation, so I can’t completely side with them. I feel like a spy sometimes.

Krim was not street-smart and so wrapped up in her own shit that her feelers were dulled. She felt cushioned from harm by her privilege.

There is SO MUCH resentment between the two groups of women: nannies and their employers.

Just tonight I was talking to a relative who was relating how his children’s nanny left the infant with an elderly neighbor while she picked up one of the other two children in her care. He was like “WTF?!” And apparently he had no idea that she regularly outsourced the childcare. I KNEW. She’s tried it with me, too. But she’s been with them for several years now, she runs their household and she’s going to get away with whatever she can. Because she’s American, college-educated and she does what they’re not willing to do. It’s a quandary. If she started acting weird, they wouldn’t get rid of her. She knows everything about them and has immense power in their household.

It’s complicated.

Jesus.

[quote] think what the earlier poster might have meant is that this proceeding isn't to determine guilt, which is the purpose of a criminal trial. Her culpability isn't at issue; there's no trial. This is a proceeding to establish her state of mind for the purpose of determining whether/how she can be punished.

No. This is a criminal trial in its truest sense. It is to establish if she is guilty of this offense(s). If she was not competent at the time of the offenses then she is not guilty. Her culpability is very much at issue. A person must have the requisite mental state (mens rea) to be found guilty.

The legal standard for NGI is very backward in the US.

Those commenting on the fact that she seemed fine at times in custody does not negate that she was incompetent at the time of the killings. Even incompetent people don't act crazy all the time. Why they may even appear to be doing a crossword puzzle.

Competency to stand trial requires that the defendant be able to effectively assist their counsel in the preparation of their defense as well as at trial. One of the factors to be considered is whether they remember or have a clear grasp, of what happened. Th court would have orderd competency restoration be done - which again is just about whether she can stand trial or not.

Thanks, R300 What do you think of new treatment to "erase" horrible memories?

A friend's dad was bi-polar back in the 1960s with extreme behavior. He received shock treatments at Bellevue. Total disaster. He became a shell of himself.

I'm not sure if the new erasure methods would be like the old shock treatments.

I just don't know how someone gets over the horror of that day. I know several families with loved ones who were murdered but they didn't see their loved ones' bodies in the bloody crime scenes like Marina and maybe, Nessie. The families NEVER got over the loss and trauma.

I think Marina's a bitch and her blog turned me off, especially when she was publicly criticizing whoever left coffee grounds on the coffee maker (The nanny or was there a maid?).

She and her husband came from CA and Marina became one of those women who made her way into the museum scene, which is its own dysfunctional , elitist environment. The Nat'l History Museum (I think that is the museum where Marina volunteered) charges $500 for your kid to spend the night and sleep in a sleeping bag under the big whale.

But it doesn't matter how bitchy Marina was or is, no one deserves to have their innocent babies slaughtered. I just don't want a mistrial. I don't want Marina or the Super or anyone have to get up on the stand again.

I've witnessed the nanny/employer environment in the Upper Westside because I tried it for a year to add income during a rough time (arts/entertainment money fell out due to the bad economy). Warning: DO NOT EVER DO IT. IT'S NOT WORTH IT.

In my situation, it was babysitting a few hours a week for a darling little girl who was a friend in my building. She moved and I switched to her little friend whom I knew. I was watching girl #2 the night the nanny killed the kids. We could hear the helicopter hovering and turned on the news. I had to assure the little girl that I would never ever hurt her like the other nanny.

I had 4 gigs, one leading to another -- One set of parents w/ an adopted girl, the rest all single moms - dad ran away, test-tube baby, single-adoption.

The nannies of the kids who were friends of my charges were all nice women from the Islands. Very, very hard-working. They cooked for their kid, did light housekeeping and worked long hours. The parents all had jobs in an office. The nannies had to ride the subway for more than hour to get home and then cook and care for their own kids

The nannies in the school playground (the PS that Lulu attended) were very suspicious of any newcomers. They didn't understand who I was because I didn't fit the mold. The kids, however, were nice and they accepted me.

My last gig was the psycho boy and his enabling mom. I will NEVER babysit again no matter how desperate I am. It's hard work+ your ego takes a massive hit. I am so grateful to my late parents for being wonderful parents. I would hate to be a modern day kid.

I have to believe that the other neighborhood nannies DID tell their bosses that Ortega was acting odd. Whether their bosses told Marina, I don't know.

Paying cash is normal for babysitters/nannies unless the parents go through an agency or they are deducting taxes. Think Kimba Woods.

Many of these UWS moms are worn-out, social-climbing shrews (although not my friends whose kids I watched). The dads are wimps.

Rich, hedgefund husbands cheat on their wives and everyone knows it. So their wives get manicures and pedicures, starve themselves, go to spin class, yoga class, buy French macarons and cupcakes for the tots, and spend the summer w/ the kids at their Hamptons house.

I have to admit, I haven't seen any hot dads or hot moms. They are too harried.

This is also Diane Schuler-esque in that the Krims had replacement kids just like the Hances, however I hope the Krims have learned to take care of their own kids now. Poor Nessie, I bet she thought she was finally out from Lulu and Leo's shadow and then mom just has two more babies. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride. I would love to read a book Nessie Krim writes someday, I bet it would be fascinating.

R320

I hope Nessie doesn't suffer from survivor's guilt in the coming years. It's going to hurt her to read her mom's blog before the murders. But then again, I'm a middle child like Nessie and we never think we had our parents' attention like our siblings.

The boys look like their dad. Nessie and Lulu like their mother.

Maybe our DL psychologists can tell us --- is it a good or bad thing to have the kids saying the motto of the foundation? Is it healing or is it like Ordinary People --- the kids living w/ ghost siblings?

I'm an artist and I love how the foundation is helping bring art and creativity to children of every walk of life. But, non-profits demand tireless fundraising. The focus will always be on the murdered kids. Maybe that's ok. I don't know.

Regardless of what may bug me about the personality of the parents, if it helps them, Nessie, or a child to express themselves thru art, then why is that wrong? art

^^^ Art is healing

R320, you keep telling your story repeatedly as though you saw front line action in a war. Drama much? FFS, you worked as a part-time nanny for a year. You weren't slogging in a coal mine for 16 hrs a day.

R323 Walk a mile in my shoes (one dipped in the toilet by psycho boy). lol. You're right. I have had worse jobs ... hey, I worked in Hollywood for 20 yrs.

Anyway, I was just trying to provide a bit of my experience in the nanny realm of the UWS.

You’re an idiot, R324.

R323

I guess I'm just trying to figure out why people behave the way they do --- what makes someone snap? I want to solve the mystery and understand why someone would commit murder .

Also, I'm telling myself that it's ok that many of us chose not to have kids.

R325

You're an asshole. Move along.

R320, I appreciate your perspective, and understand your desire to share what you know. I’ve done so, here, and caught some shit for it because we are “frau”. I wouldn’t presume to discuss things I don’t know about, but why not give some personal experience here? Who knows.

It’s fascinating.

Well thank you, R328!

I was about to post " Fuck it. EVERY THREAD on DL has some asshole saying something didn't happen. The whole thing is wrecked here."

You give me hope. The naysayers here think anyone who says ANYTHING from an insider's perspective is a "frau" regardless of gender. It's dismissive.

It could be the poster who is blasting me is the broken record who keeps saying, "I don't understand why Marina's lashing out is grounds for a mistrial."

R328

I'm a native Californian who moved to NYC. In NYC you aren't cloistered in your car. You have to interact with tons of people every day.

You see the the "Haves" and the "Have Nots" --- the Krims and Ortega.

I became interested in learning about kids who are psychopaths after my experience. The was adopted from Florida like the Parkland shooter. Is it nruture vs nature? How do you spot and stop a psychopath from developing and hurting someone?

^^^ nurture

Crap. another typo.

The kid was adopted in Florida like Cruz, the Parkland Shooter.

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Let me correct myself as to burden and standards of proof:

Majority of states, it is the defendant's burden to prove insanity by either a preponderance of the evidence or a clear and convincing standard of proof.

Minority of states, it is the government's burden to prove sanity beyond a reasonable doubt.

Some states have tried to ban NGIs - some successfully and some not. This doesn't mean that they can't be found incompetent to stand trial.

Always remember it is the jury which decides the defendant's sanity. The experts just provide testimony. And, of course, it is the jury which decides if the government has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the acts of the alleged crime(s).

A lot changed after Hinkley was acquitted at his trial for the attempted assassination of Reagan. At the time the District of Columbia was the only jurisdiction in the country where if a defendant was found not guilty by reason of insanity s/he would be automatically committed to a mental institution until deemed sane.

I find the photos of the Krims' apt really depressing. It's like a daycare.

In women, schizophrenia usually shows up in their 20s or 30s. However there are other mental illnesses that can come later in life, and those often show up around menopause. People who are socially isolated (because they speak English as a second language) are more susceptible to these types of illnesses.

[quote]I find the photos of the Krims' apt really depressing.

I do too. Do you see how small it is for 3 kids, two adults, and a nanny? Oh gosh! That small of a spce would make anyone go crazy.

R336

The nanny lived in the Bronx. Many people speak Spanish daily in NYC and the outer boroughs . Lots of people who were born here speak Spanish as their first language - Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Mexicans, Colombians, etc. You hear Spanish spoken in every store, health clinic, subway -- no big deal.

I think it was the financial stress and that Ortega was overwhelmed that caused the psychotic break. I don't think she was isolated. I think she was broke, desperate, plus physically and mentally tired and felt disrespected by Marina.

R337

Maybe it's the metal dining chairs, the strollers and the clutter of the books that is oppressive. I don't know how many bedrooms they had -- probably 2. That would make their rent at least $4500 or more.

For those of you wondering about Jackie Kennedy:

I'd have to ask the posters on the 70s childhood thread, but even though families of the past had a bunch of kids, I don't remember the houses looking child-centric even though parents sacrificed a lot for their kids.

The kid junk (toys) was confined to your bedrooms not sprawled throughout the house.

But NYC and its limited space has many things I never saw or would put up with in California.

[quote]How do you spot and stop a psychopath from developing and hurting someone?

I can think of at least one way...

[quote]How do you spot and stop a psychopath from developing and hurting someone?

[quote]I can think of at least one way...

What a coincidence, so can I!

In our second thread on Stabbin' Nanny (way back in 2012) , Reply312 had an interesting theory:

[italic]No one seems to be talking about the "make up" that (Ortega) was selling.

Both of these items are from the NYTimes.

"Twice, Ms. Ortega asked Ms. Lajara to pray that a woman would pay her for makeup she had given her to sell. The amount, Ms. Lajara said, was about $100, and it was important to her."

"Ms. Lajara said that Ms. Ortega had given someone she knew some makeup to peddle and that the woman had not come through with the money."

My Theory: DRUG DEALING.

The "make up" was a story she made up so she could discuss her involvement in drug dealing. She was dealing drugs, then gave them to someone else to peddle. This someone else stole them. Now the nanny is on the hook with the cartel.

Think about it:

WHO was this woman involved in the make up deal gone wrong?

WHY did (Ortega) desperately need that $100 returned?

WHY did she lose her apartment when her nanny salary covered her rent and lifestyle just fine in the previously?

WHY did she come out of the coma with extreme concern for the well being of her own family - as if they were in danger?

$100 wouldn't have changed her life. It was clearly a MUCH bigger sum. And her desperation for it tells me she gave drugs, not make up, to someone to sell and was instead ripped off. Now she owes major cash to the people / cartel that gave her the drugs in the first place.

She can't tell anyone about her circumstances. She loses weight. Starts looking like a ghost. Lies about the amount owed and what for because she just needs the prayers of others. So she concocts the makeup story.

Grows insane with rage when the Krims offer her housework for what must have felt like pennies compared to the $ she really needed to survive - and protect her family, who were probably threatened.[/italic]

R344

I don't think it was drugs. I've seen other low-income women selling cosmetics on the street. It's a bit like Avon. I don't know if they are seconds or not. It's a way to make some money.

It sounds like it was like Mary Kay. You sell it through homes and try to sign up other people to sell.

When you are poor and your rent is due, $100 is a lot of money.

R344, if Ortega was selling drugs, why was she still working as a nanny?

There's a lot more money in drugs than in being a nanny.

Yeah, make up sales like Mary Kay are pyramid schemes. You need to get others to sell it to make any money. The deadbeat woman who owed Ortega $100 probably was supposed to buy a starter kit to demo the make up she ordered for others. Nanny probably fronted her the starter kit and never got paid back.

[quote] The kid junk (toys) was confined to your bedrooms not sprawled throughout the house.

Quite right. Your bedroom and parts of the family room.

I can't believe the aparment - it's certainly not the interior I was expecting for a place that reportedly cost $10k/mo rent.

Few things...I know a couple with three kids who live in Brooklyn Heights and pay 10 grand a month and their apartment looks very much like that one, except they also have a tiny back yard and an even tinier garage that their small car hardly fits it. If there are any passengers they have to get out in or out in the driveway as both sides of the car can't be opened in the garage. The passenger side has to be right up against the wall. Rain or snow they have to put the kids in their cars seats out in the driveway. Still it beats paying almost 700 a month for a garage elsewhere. They keep a car because they visit his parents in Long Island and have just bought a house upstate so they get no sympathy from me. The second you walk into their house you know a pack of spoiled brats live there.

I think if the nanny was a young, blond, white girl, with big tear filled blue eyes, under the same exact circumstances, she would have a much better chance of a non guilty verdict for reasons of insanity. This woman is not an appealing defendant. She is unpleasant to look at and shows no signs of remorse.

Then, I just thought it odd that to see such a video you first have to sit though a commercial for a chef, preparing food that sings out kitchen knives.

I'm not standing up for a child killer but the parents are both pieces of nasty work and the nanny's looks, age and ethnicity will not give her a fair trial.

Re the apartment. It’s not as nice as I expected; it’s par for the course. I don’t know ANYONE with three kids who doesn’t have toys and shit all over the apartment.

Yes, things have changed. When I was a kid in the 70s, ALL of our toys fit in a toy box about the size of a foot locker. That’s it. Now if someone has small kids, that shit is everywhere. It’s normal.

Now that my kids are older and spend all their time with screens, things are back to normal.

Haha, true, R352. Christmas used to be stacks of cheap plastic toys with lots of parts scattered around (ever step on a Lego?--yeow!) Now that my kids are older, it's just a few electronics and some clothes under the tree. Much better.

Back in the bad old days, employers used to hold servants hostage by refusing to provide references (or "a character") if they left. If a servant left without a letter from a previous employer saying they were honest and hard-working, they'd never be able to get another equivalent job, and that power was frankly abused to keep servants in line. Employers would threaten to withhold references for any servant who left because of abusive working conditions, or to fire servants who wouldn't put up with abuse "without a character", which would probably mean homelessness or dire poverty for the ex-servant.

Tell me, is there a similar dynamic between modern employees and nannies, especially if the employee is working off the books? If a nanny is working for an agency the nanny can always use the agency as a reference, but if they're working for one family off the books...

If you're working off the books you are totally screwed because it's not that easy to find jobs for cash these days and you really are at the mercy of your employer. Then again with these kind of jobs if you work for the agency the agency, pimps really, get the lion share of the money they charge the clients. So really, that is a lousy lot in life for those workers. Either way they're screwed.

R354, your post brought to mind this story, from 2006, about a housekeeper who routinely stole from her wealthy clients (but not Isabella Rossellini, who the housekeeper liked). It's a story, like this one, about crime, class resentment and dependency, things would resonate with NY Times readers.

R351 It’s her total lack of remorse and also she says she doesn’t remember killing the kids. But she does remember being taken by the ambulance. No amount of colorful beauty or high class ethnicity will make her look good. I saw a list of failed insanity cases which I could not believe. You should have a look at that. I find those parents obnoxious too but if I think of them too much, I start making excuses for the nanny.

Exactly r357! She acts so cavalier, like she broke a crystal punch bowl and not nearly cut the fucking kids' heads off. Her weak ass "oh they wanted me to clean houses, I don't clean!" shit is not going to get her very far.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ortega could get as little as 20 years with eligibility for parole after serving a few years, or as much as life with no possibility for parole. I fear her lawyer may be able to get her the lesser sentence by turning the trial into a shitshow. We already know she's going to quibble about the timing of events as a way to introduce doubt as to whether Ortega had enough time to commit the murders.

Good to know that Isabella Rossellini is a nice person, I always liked her.

The possibility that Ortega could re-offend is very high. Manson was never paroled either. Only a parole board of fools would let her into the general public. It will take her a very long time to qualify for parole. Where would she go? Should we sic her on to the Dominican Republic or back to the Bronx? What guarantee is there that the next small provocation will make her not chop up another kid or two? So a parole board will have a very hard time letting her loose. If shitshow Valerie gets her NGI, it will be a loooong sentence. Sort of like what just happened to the Slenderman girls. Say I was in charge of her ward, I would laugh at her chart and not touch her case for release. If a judge orders me to release her, I have no choice. Some patients fight their commitment for years. She would also get medicated and be around staff who knows what to do with liars and malingerers. There would be court hearings where the staff would recommend release or not and the patient would fight it and life would just go on as usual back on the ward.

I have no concern for the obnoxious parents nor nanny rights. I only speak for those dead kids. And I would do everything to punish their murderer and try my best to see that nothing like that happens again. I wish this thread would focus on the kids and start other threads to address the obnoxious parents and whatever social problems nannies face.

Is imprisonment at a psychiatric jail really better than being in a regular prison?

Do you think the nanny planned the murders way before hand or the text from Marina asking her to work on Saturday was the final straw?

The nanny wanted to be paid a proper wage for watching 3 kids under 7 yrs old instead of having to add on house cleaning, imo. There was a host of stressors in the nanny's life at that point but to butcher those 2 kids is evil.

In the hospital, the nanny never asked about the Krims or their kids. She's been detached the whole time.

The building Super's 10 yr old son was with his dad at the crime scene. I hope he didn't look in the bathroom.

I didn't realize that Leo and Lulu were still alive when the EMTs arrived. They died in the ambulance. Maybe Wikipedia is wrong.

[quote]r362 In the hospital, the nanny never asked about the Krims or their kids. She's been detached the whole time.

What's to ask? She knows all she needs to know about Lord & Lady Krim.

They showed their true faces when instead of offering a reasonable wage, they said she could become their maid.

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Thank you so much, [R283]/ veteran forensic psychiatrist for your input!

I really appreciate your writing and responses and I thank you for getting back to me/us!

I appreciate the in depth discussion of this case (as well as criminal psychology and behavior, etc.) that we’re all having here, and I hope you will continue to share your perspective and insights with us here on DL.

Marina Krim is part Filipina. She should have just gotten a Filipina nanny. Some poor relation from Marinduque, like her grandmother who really needs the money for her family. Those nannies never complain when they know their family and children are getting fed. Apparently, Marina believed she's pure white and got a nanny typical of the Upper West Side. She didn't pay it forward and she got what she got. I feel bad for her kids though.

R367

Marina wanted her kids to be bilingual in Spanish, something that would be very useful in NYC or if they moved back to CA . It was one of the reasons why she hired Ortega , who had worked for the Krims for 2 years.

I only recently read that Marina had been a kindergarten teacher and had worked in marketing. I don't know if that was in SF or NYC.

Marina Krim’s views on race are not apparent R367. Yours, however, are showing.

[R367] seems to have invented an entire scenario out of thin air--tabloid fanfic?

Marina's ethnicity could very well be pertinent to the case, r369. Being that Marina is a person of color, it could have contributed to Ortega's feelings of jealousy, and Marina may have felt she had to be overly assertive in order to command the same level of respect a white woman would automatically receive. BTW, some Filipinos speak spanish.

Okay, you're reaching when you talk about Marina's ethnicity. Again, Marina isn't the one on trial here, and other than her failure to fire an unstable nanny, her actions did not cause this horrible crime. Nothing she could have done could possibly have driven the nanny crazy enough to murder two kids, because that's not how mental illness works. Nothing she did or possibly could have done could have justified the murder of two kids, in anything but the mind of someone who's either incredibly fucking evil or batshit crazy.

Like I said, some of you are FAR too focused on "frau" types. This case isn't really about Marina Krim, no matter how much she'd like it to be.

R372, you seem to come from a different planet, a planet where common sense and justice prevail. Well, here on Planet Earth, that's not how things work. No, here, if you don't have a defense, you put the victim on trial. In the public mind, Marina is inescapably going to be what this trial is about.

[quote]R372 Again, Marina isn't the one on trial here.

Excuse me, but DL will be the judge of that.

The personalities of the parents aren't helping much to make them sympathetic figures.

Hello R362 and others. Being in a general prison is considered a hellish experience. They do not coddle you and you are not so special if you need psychiatric treatment. Along with all the other types of abuse and predatory behavior from the other inmates, it's like Oz with women. But if you are NGI, you get treatment, less chaos and most importantly, you can apply to leave once you are well. Also if you have been mentally ill, there are ways to get you treatment as an outpatient at multiple little centers strewn all around the city, not necessarily at the big, ugly jail. The judge can still sentence Ortega to some mental health facility if she wins her NGI trial. He could sentence her to as much, but to no more than what her sentence would be at Patton State(LA facility) without NGI.

However, Ortega has probably been a model patient for the last five years. She has not had any behavior problems, but then again, I have not seen her 6,000 page chart. Nor have I interviewed her, nor her doctors. She claims not to remember "the event" so being detached is in her best interest. I have noted that Satan too has made his presence known to her recently, because she claims to have some "possession" issues with him and of course, he orders her around and tells her to do bad things.

You asked me if Ortega planned those murders or just "flipped out" at some text message from Marina asking for work or something.

I read something interesting by a lawyer today who says that "logic" does not win NGI. Craziness is not logical, its very messy. The more crazy ones' actions are, the more of a chance to be considered insane. He used the example of James Holmes who gunned down all those people at a Batman showing in Colorado, and now wants to be considered insane. The lawyer used the same words I use, "anger" and "revenge". He feels James is a loser who shot up kids watching Batman, but did not gun down kids at the "Bambi" showing. Well, why not? The lawyer said gunning down older, successful people was what James Holmes wanted, because he could never be successful himself.

I can not see how you would set up a horrific scenario like Ortega did, without some planning. Some rehearsal in her head. How does one even raise a knife at a kid unless you're Pycelle and all these homicidal kids with knives are cutting you up? If Ortega was so mad at Marina, she could have stabbed her, or the doorman, or kicked me in front of a train. She was thinking clearly enough to slash the throat of Marina' favorite, most vulnerable baby first, while he was sleeping FFS.

I know this is controversial, but I want to see the crime scene photos, all of them. The ones her lawyer is suppressing I want to know the level of Ortega's hatred for those children. It's too abstract now.

[quote]R376 I have noted that Satan too has made his presence known to her recently, because she claims to have some "possession" issues with him and of course, he orders her around and tells her to do bad things.

He is everywhere...

I love love love Hot Stuff!

R376 Thank you for all of your posts and for answering my questions. I don't think Ortega hated the kids. I think she chose a way to maximize inflicting pain on Marina. The dad was out of town on business so it was only Marina at home. Maybe Ortega saw that as her window of opportunity so there would be no mistaking that this was directed at Marina.

No one can stop an evil and/or crazy person hellbent on murder, but maybe other families could lessen the stress if they hired a housekeeper/cook for a few hours a day rather than have a nanny in the house all day. Although I don't know if Ortega worked an 8 hr day. It could be another reason why she was broke and she and her son were evicted from their apt and moved in w/ her sister in Hamilton Heights (Harlem).

Ease visual stress and clutter: buy an armoire and hide the multiple strollers and backpacks. Don't let the toys and books takeover the living room. Mom and dad wake the kids and fix breakfast. Dress kids. Dad drops school age or daycare kid(s) off on his way to work. Housekeeper/cook comes and cleans up after breakfast. Grocery shops. Cooks lunch and dinner. Does laundry and leaves. Cost: 1-3 hours work at $50/hr = 150.00. Ortega was paid $18 x hrs 8= $144 (if she was working the full day)

There are people called "walkers" whose job is solely to pick up your kid from school and walk them home then they leave. So the mom at home w/ the baby doesn't have get bundled up and go out. Daycare and grammar schools let out at different times so you'd have multiple return times. I don't know if Nessie went to daycare.

The Son of Sam, David Berkowitz, admitted decades later that he made up the bit about his landlord's dog talking to him. Is Ortega's "laughing maniacally" in court at the cop's testimony just part of an act?

Something the dad said in a blog is disturbing to me. "Since Lulu and Leo died, we’ve had two more children, Felix and Linus, who are smiling, laughing evidence of this wisdom. They, along with strong Nessie, are genetically and spiritually half Lulu and half Leo. "

Nessie, Felix and Linus are not half Leo and Lulu. They are their own unique souls with their own personalities and dreams . The boys aren't replacements for the lost Leo and Lulu and I wish they weren't given comic strip names that kids will tease them about forever.

I don't think any us could escape unscathed if dissected by the media and the public. Whatever the Krims annoying behavior , poor judgment, blogging or cheapness, it didn't warrant the brutal murders of their two sweet, innocent children.

The foundation has helped over 2,300 kids foster their creativity and that's really important. In NYC at least, the schools don't have art, music and full sports classes like we had growing up. Those things are part of afterschool programs run by private companies not the school district. I think the charge is $500 per session (2 classes a week). So if you are a working parent, you have to spend $1500 to cover the week.

R376 How do you know the difference between someone is who is just plain evil vs. someone who is mentally ill? Or does it not matter?

Also, the current financial inequality really ramps up anger and envy. I think this is the issue more than ethnicity and immigration. Growing up, we walked to the babysitter's house after school and stayed until our parents picked us up after work. Our babysitter was about the same economic class (middle class) as us. We were in her house under her rules and discipline.

Marina was the looming, critical presence that ruled over the nanny's day. The nanny was in Marina's realm. The Krims were wealthy. The nanny was poor and couldn't make ends meet. Plus, she might truly be schizophrenic.

The Krims might be well-advised to change their opening video to children demonstrating their creative principles rather than the two of them talking.

People are checking out their foundation now due to the trial. They'll get more donations by focusing on how their program helps kids and their families and not focus on the Krims talking about themselves. The kids' artwork in the thumbnails is charming. That's what it's all about or should be.

Are the parents in denial? Putting on game face for the camera? Surely, they can’t feel as inspired and upbeat and resolved as they present in that video? I don’t watch it and feel admiration for their strength and resilience. I feel strangely unsettled by their demeanour.

Anger and crazy go hand in hand. Many persons with schizophrenia or bipolar symptoms exhibit great rage at real or imagined threats or oppression. This may be ongong or intermittent. Some people keep it together and function for long periods of time. Just because they can function for the most part doesn't mean that mental illness is not still present. Just because action is "planned" does not mean that the act is not the product of a mental illness. I thought I read that Ortega had already been diagnosed when she was younger. These illnesses do become progressively worse with age, stress and lack of proper treatment.

R381 I admire that want to try to be upbeat (their foundation depends on it) but the video is narcissistic. I agree with you. It's unsettling. It's boring. Potential donors and families who want to be part of the program should be shown how colorful art & the 10 Principles can enrich lives. I don't get how Marina's smile or the dad's impatience factors into it.

^^^ typo: that they

R382

I have experience with friends and family who are bipolar. I think the research shows that they are more apt to commit suicide rather than murder.

I had a friend who is schizophrenic. She heard voices while she was driving and saw devils. Halloween triggered her. It was somehow related to a childhood rape by a priest. I imagine that the defense will have as their witness a doctor who had diagnosed Ortega in her youth as being schizophrenic.

R381- Their huge smiles unsettle me too. That’s why I have never seen their video, nor the court video of the mother. They must be on some antidepressants or something. Those face-cracking smiles unnerve me.

I can't help but wonder if the foundation is a way for the Krims to regain some lost esteem of their peers. Surely they were pitied, but deep down people probably whispered about how cheap they were and how poorly the nanny was treated and, like we're doing here on DL, mused about how they might've brought this on themselves by being so horrible. NOT that they deserved it, for all you simpletons out there!

Setting up a Foundation for CHIIILLLDREN gives the Krimms an opportunity to showcase themselves as kind, generous people who care about others, and the least likely people you'd expect to inspire such hatred in a household worker. I wonder if any of their peers have changed opinions about them either way.

[quote]Something the dad said in a blog is disturbing to me. [italic]"Since Lulu and Leo died, we’ve had two more children, Felix and Linus, who are smiling, laughing evidence of this wisdom. They, along with strong Nessie, are genetically and spiritually half Lulu and half Leo."[/italic]

[quote]Nessie, Felix and Linus are not half Leo and Lulu. They are their own unique souls with their own personalities and dreams . The boys aren't replacements for the lost Leo and Lulu

Maybe the nanny was perfectly fine until she got swallowed up in that house's stupidity.

People are born schizophrenic trauma's don't make someone schizophrenic or bipolar. Now traumatic things can make things worse and bring on an episode. Sadly, schizophrenics and the mentally ill in general are more likely to be victims of violence and crimes than to commit them.

Only because I saw the pictures of the Krim's apartment

"She had scabs, it looked bad, she was stabbed, That's how she became The Nanny. . ."

I don't get the reference, R391

Dad's testimony. And another strange response from Marina when the dad met her at the hospital, " We won't get divorced. Oprah says..."

These people are weird as shit.

This story is beyond sad :( The medical examiner testimony from yesterday about how the kids died was horrible to read and they said 2-3 jurors were uncontrollably shaking afterwards...

Too bad NY state has no death penalty.

I find it hard to understand how a woman capable of such an unimaginably horrific crime could, up to that point, conceal all signs of serious mental problems. It’s mind-blowing. To realize someone could do something so barbaric is one kind of horror, to realize someone who you had thought sane and loving enough to charge with your kids care, could do so, is just a whole other level of horrific.

I feel the need to say that I have nothing bad to say about the Krims. I've called them "obnoxious" in the past and have criticized their cheap behavior, their messy apartment and even their looks and their smiles. I know I could not live through what they have lived through. I was very sad seeing their faces walking through the courtroom corridor. Very disappointed in my cunt-y behavior.

Aww why r397? That's why we are here, to separate the crime victims from the creeps they may be. Being a pretentious asshole and having something fucking horrific happen to you aren't mutually exclusive. I feel bad for them too, just think, when Marina is 99 years old in a nursing home, she will have forgotten many things, I bet she'll never forget that day though. Still, she was bitchy to Nessie and kind of an asshole mommy blogger, she's a dichotomy.

That's what I've been saying. The Krims may be irritating people, but nothing they ever did or could have done deserved that punishment. The murders of the children weren't revenge for anything sane, they weren't justice, they weren't karmic. They were pure fucking evil, and those people never did anything that deserved pure fucking evil.

Can a normal person really do this? I can even understand if in a war situation an otherwise ordinary person acts monstrously as part of a group, but as an individual...

"One thing was clear, the coroner told jurors — the children suffered horribly before they died.

Lucia likely twisted her body to get away from the onslaught, and was conscious, the doctor testified. Leo suffered six wounds, all to his neck, she said, and had no blood left in his body when he arrived on the autopsy table.

“They didn’t die initially. Only some of [the knife wounds] were fatal. That takes an order of minutes, not seconds,” Ely said. “Bleeding to death takes minutes.”

It’s not clear which of the children died first in the October 2012 bloodbath. Lucia fought gallantly during the “violent” and prolonged attack, the doctor described, detailed the roughly 30 nicks, slices and deep wounds that covered her tiny body.

There were 22 “haphazard” knife wounds to her neck alone, according to Ely, adding she suffered an additional six to her front and back abdomen.

It appeared that Leo’s neck had been sliced open from behind, the ME said. The gash made by the knife was 1-1/2 inches deep. “On a small boy that’s a deep wound,” the coroner said, noting that the gash reached his spine.

Ortega was not under the influence of any substances during the attack, Ely testified under cross examination by defense attorney Valerie Van Leer-Greenberg.

The children had not been drugged or force-fed alcohol to ease their suffering, she said."

When things like this happen to little kids I always wonder if they really think monsters are real. I mean we tell them they aren't but then this shit happens and they have to think we lied to them. How sad, what scary final moments they had.

R397 here- It would take me years of analysis of the Krims and Ortega to be able to figure out who deserved what. I've always worked and thought like a cop. Though I look at all factors, I could never claim to be able to separate the creeps from the victims. I'm just not that smart, not in the loop and my knowledge base is pathetically tiny. All we are doing on this thread is gossip and conjecture. Figuring this out is going to take a lot more work than being aware of Marina Krim and her awful blog. The internet is full of those. I'll be around but I won't gossip. I hope someday we can get to the bottom of this crime. I'll focus on court records and statements under oath.

They had 3 beautiful children, only 1 survived...sad. How long are we going to let illegal aliens come here from their shit hole countries to take good paying nanny jobs from Americans? Speaking of aliens, has anyone seen Milania? She promised to shave my back and ass cheeks tonight.

So so sad.

Nanny must be insane, although she does look sane in her courtroom pix.

If I may offer some insight, based on what I have known of nannies I have talked to, I can understand why Ortega would have been upset that she was asked to do housework in order to earn extra cash. 1. She was 52 years old and was probably too tired to take on more physically demanding work. and 2. She probably thought in her mind, "Hey I used to sometimes play with the kids when it was my day off or when I was off duty and not charge them. Can't they understanding now and pay me a little extra if I need it?" I really think that is the nanny mentality. We non-nannies know that you can bill your employer for work you did for free two years ago, but, again, it is a different mentality.

Hope that helps. Naturally she is still fucking wacko for slicing up those babies.

R404 here again.

So sorry. I meant, we non-nannies know that you CAN NOT bill your employer...

I was surprised to read that the Krims had a dog.Kevin Krim talked about it in his testimony, I wonder what breed. It must have been in the apartment that day. Did it try to stop the attack? Why didn't the nanny hurt the dog too?

I wouldn't want the nanny to have a cushy time at a mental facility, but yet, I would want to think that the nanny was insane rather than she hated me so much that she butchered two of my little kids to get back at me.

No, you can't decide to do whatever tasks you want and then "bill" your employer. I had a sitter for my kids years ago who would show up late and then think she could atone for it by doing my laundry. Uh, no. I didn't need or want my laundry done and I didn't ask her to do it. What I needed was for her to get her ass there on time so I wouldn't be late for work.

[quote][R397] here- It would take me years of analysis of the Krims and Ortega to be able to figure out who deserved what.

Really? It's sad and and a little perplexing that you are so morally bankrupt and lacking in basic reasoning skills. I took me all of 2 minutes of analysis to figure out that Stabbin' Nanny deserves a painful death by slow torture. What the Krims "deserve" is the right to administer that torture themselves.

I wonder what Nanny's family thinks of her. Has her son shunned her for being an evil baby killer? I hope so.

I can't imagine things are going her way in court if that smug, sinister stare @ R400 is any indication. That face alone is pure evil.....the jury will want to lock her up in prison for 100 yrs.

I think the son is loyal to his mother. Didn't he try to float the idea on his FB right after the murders that his mom was having an affair with Kevin? The sister is in court to support her sister. Don't know about the niece.

The Krims have to see the sister who is also a nanny because she is now around their new apt, picking up her charges from school, etc. I'd move again. I couldn't run into her. Its not worth it.

According to his aunt, the son reacted with disbelief. She quoted him saying "it can't be, they were like my little brother and sister." He used to babysit them too. This was reported at the time - the media tracked down the family.

Very interesting insights, R93.

I read in yesterday's NYT that when the two parents were tearful reunited at the hospital, Marina said to her husband, 'We are not going to break up over this. Oprah says that couples who lose a child always divorce."

Still feel absolutely terrible for them.

Let this be a cautionary tale for all of us.

You cannot be too careful with people you allow into your home.

The axiom "Trust but verify" comes to mind.

R183, thanks for the info re the going rate for paying help on the UES.

I remember a woman of means I used to know who had hired help at home and told me that any given person is going to be a good babysitter or a good house cleaner, but NEVER both!

R414

I don't know about the UES rates. I just know about the UWS. I babysat kids near where the Krims lived. None of the four families I would consider to be rich. After the psycho kid, I haven't done it since. It made me feel vulnerable to a child's lies.

The only housekeeping I did was to wash the dinner dishes after feeding the child and making sure all of the toys were picked up.

When I was growing up in CA (family w/ 3 kids), we had a babysitter and we went to her house. Our mother was only 1 of 2 mothers who worked. It turned out the stay-at-home moms with the most kids (9 kids, Irish Catholic) were alcoholics.

I was trying to remember if the Rolling Stone's lyrics about "mother's little helpers" was about speed or Valium.

R414

If parents go through an agency, I think it starts at $20/hr for one kid. I just know that $18/hr for 3 kids under age 6 (what the Krims were paying) is way too low even if Marina was sitting in the apt.

I didn't read very much of Marina's blog but it reminded me a bit of the mommy blogger of Six in the City. She favored her adopted Asian daughter and crammed her 3 boys into an unsafe triple bunk bed. Her dream of a TV show ended when her BIL died and the family moved back to live w/ the widowed SIL and help her and her kids.

An employer can definitely give their off-the-books in-home employee gifts, or a bonus, or loans, or "loans", I've known cases where it happened. And the Krims probably should have given their nanny a bonus of a few thousand if she was having difficulty paying rent, money they could obviously spare, and it would have made economic sense for them to do so! If they'd saved her ass when she was being evicted, they could have spent the rest of their working relationship asking how she could complain about a little overtime when they'd saved her home, or that she still owed them X-thousand dollars in an unpaid loan and she could work off a few more bucks by staying through the weekend.

But they didn't deserve to lose their children to horrible deaths for their failure to do so, and the children never did anything to deserve agonizing deaths.

I agree with R417

I think the Krims gave the nanny several trips to the Dominican Republic to see her family (although the Krims stayed at the family house for a few days). I imagine they used Frequent Flyer Miles.

I have to believe there were plenty of signs of her deteriorating mental health. I suspect it was inconvenient for the family to accommodate it or spend time looking for a replacement - temporarily or otherwise. Maybe the children noticed it but weren't listened.

And, no, you can't tell if someone was sane or insane at the time of the acts by looking at photographs of someone in court 5 years later. Further, she has been instructed by her lawyers how to behave in court.

I just don't think it's possible for someone in good working order to brutally murder two little kids. The act itself is proof of her disordered mental state.

[quote]And the Krims probably should have given their nanny a bonus of a few thousand if she was having difficulty paying rent, money they could obviously spare, and it would have made economic sense for them to do so!

You have to be care here. All that glitters is not gold. Just look at Trump's lawyer, Michael Cohen. He had to pull a loan using his house to get $130K? No, I don't expect Cohen to be a millionaire (although on the internet it is saying that his net worth is $10MM, but it's the internet) and has a yearly salary of about $750K, and yet HE had to resort to pulling the money by using the equity of his house?

Wasn't there some talk of a huge fight between Ortega and Marina? The nanny was warned about her poor performance, right? Nowadays peoples' lives really can be ruined by a lost job. I hear this all the time. Do you remember the doctor who came back to Bronx-Lebanon in NY and blew away two doctors there? He blamed them for ruining his career? But he ended up shooting the wrong docs anyway.

I really think its very dangerous to threaten to fire someone already desperate. Or you should just give the person a huge severance fee so they don't drown as soon as you fire them. It's safe and it's kind. But threats will just enrage anyone and for someone already teetering on the brink, disaster is virtually guaranteed.

I read that the nanny had recently sent $140 and $150 wires to her relatives in the DR. Those are really tiny amounts and will barely pay for fashionable baby shoes in Manhattan. That kind of financial discrepancy between the affluent Krims and the desperate Ortega set up some kind of crazy power struggle. We already know that the nanny won. If the nanny thought she was going to get destroyed, she would destroy Marina too. If she was going to lose everything, she would make sure Marina did too.

I cannot wrap my head around the carnage though. I can probably assure you of a couple of things. Whether this nanny ends up in prison or a mental institution, her life won't be cushy. And she will never escape the scrutiny of the state, even if she spends twenty years in an asylum.

Good insights, R422.

I, too, cannot understand the brutality of Ortega. I almost think that she would have regretted her actions with the first stabbing.

But that would be having expectations of normal behavior on her part.

the krim foundation is hiring

I don't think I'd want a career that involved dealing with the Krims.

R424, R425, well, they have to keep the memory of those children alive. This is an excellent way to do so.

R406, I didn't know about them having a dog.

If only the dog had bitten Ortega so hard that she bled..

Not questioning the parents' objectives, [R426]. But on a personal level, something about them--particularly the mother and predating the murders--makes me wary and uncomfortable. I would not want to work with them. Others will feel differently.

The two posts on this page of the Mom’s blog are interesting. “Josie” before she murdered the girl, enjoyed doing her hair. And Lulu points out that the bus, which presumably she'd never have to take out of necessity, smells bad.

I think a lot of the reason people don’t like the Krims is they seemed very noticeably happy with their affluent lives - so much so that the Mom blogged about it on a daily basis. She seemed truly enamored with her kids and with being a mom. In a world of so much discontent and hardship, this irks people. Next to her own mental ill-health, this family's privilege and ease of being, relative to her own deprived, difficult life is the most likely key contributing factor to the nanny's heinous crime.

It's not their ease of being (nice phrase btw), it was the smugness and self-regard of that blog--which is entirely different. "Look at how fabulous we are! In particular, look at how fabulous I am."

I guess I agree with you R430, much of the blog is the definition of smugness. Which is what the nanny attacked when she murdered the children. It’s quite the Greek tragedy — “Josie” acting as nemesis to Marina’s hubris.

You are describing every mommy-frau the world over, R429/R430/R431. Should all their toddlers be stabbed? Every mom on Facebook is insufferable---including (especially??) ones who are not particularly affluent.

Parents brag about their kids. So what? Do you even have any friends or family who are the parents of young kids? It's odd if they DON'T make a huge fuss. It's always been so since the dawn of time. How ridiculous to insinuate that happy, proud parents, who don't try to hide their exuberance, are responsible for the insane actions of a fucking baby killer.

oh, dial back the histrionics, [R432]. I don't think anyone on this thread has insinuated that the parents' attitudes are responsible for the nanny's insanity.

I recommend the French film "La Ceremonie" directed by Claude Chabrol, and starring Isabelle Huppert and Sandrine Bonnaire.

R432, those posts insinuate no such thing. I'd explain this further to you, but clearly, you're too much of a simpleton to understand.

Half the posts on this thread insinuate exactly that, R435.

People, calm down!

This is DL! Surely we can discuss and speculate on this situation from multiple viewpoints, psychological and legal, without getting snarky to each other.

fiddlesticks, [R346]. Perhaps you're bringing some baggage to this discussion?

R429

Damn, when i clicked your link, i thought it's going to be smug commentary on luxury of their life kardashian style with hundreds of comments. But it's Just a little blog. Nothing special. Though its painful to see those poor kids.

I don't think anyone is asking for anyone to break it down for us r429 r432, et al. It's pretty obvious, Ortega was a seething cunt and she wanted to hurt Krim in the worst way. It's not mysterious at all like the Joey Communale murder where we really don't know what set it off. Your explanation that we rail against people that are happy is ridiculous. Everyone thinks that this crime is heinous, no one thinks that the punishment for being a smug asshole should be execution of your children. We're making observations and pointlessly bitching because that's what the fuck we do here. I'm not going to apologize for it, this isn't a mommy blog.

I don't think the Nanny won. One way or the other her life is over. The parents, especially the mother, don't seem all that devastated. They've already "replaced" the lost kids and they seem to be living a smugly happy life now. If there was some way the nanny could have taken away their wealth instead of the kids I think that would have had hurt them a lot more than the loss of their kids. On top of everything else now the mother gets to be a martyr.

What the nanny did is horrible but I do think she was driven to it. I think she belongs in a mental hospital, not walking around free but I don't think she belongs in prison.

R441

Driven to it by what? By working for someone more rich and annoying? By mental illness?

[quote] You are describing every mommy-frau the world over, [R429]/[R430]/[R431]. Should all their toddlers be stabbed?

Of course not. I vote we start a GoFundMe page and buy them all pit bulls as nannies.

Why all those talks about mother, father, their suffering? It's like those kids didn't exist as separate human beings. The died horribly, painfully, because their nanny was too weak and useless to find better job, father was too busy, mother was too lazy.

From the blog at R429:

[quote] December 20th, 2010, 01:20 pm The Bus. We r on the bus right now and lulu just whispered to me, "there are so many gross smells on these buses"! Yes, u r correct lulu!!

What an awful thing to blog. These are the kinds of things we don't repeat because it's rude, condescending and insulting to others. We tell our children that, no, that's what life smells like. It's not gross. And we tell them it's unkind to make such remarks.

At another she remarks about Nessie's school drawing. She browses Nessie's classmates' drawings - all hung up. She comments that all the other kids have drawn figures or smaller things on their papers while Nessie has drawn/colored all over hers. The photo shows a paper with just big scribblings that fill up the entire page right to the edges with no distinct forms or figures. I wonder what that means?

yeah r445, exactly, she's kind of an asshole. People don't get that we can dislike someone and still feel badly for them. I think we can all agree that Cindy Anthony is an asshole too, it doesn't lessen our sympathy for her murdered grandkid. I hope she does better with her replacement kids and I hope she doesn't leave them with a nanny but instead savors every minute with them as we all know there are no guarantees.

Asshole because she agreed with her kid that bus smells? Really, dataloungers? Really?

Asshole because she brags about it, asshole because she writes "u r correct", is she Prince? Yeah, she's an asshole. Not every snotty thing your kid says is cute or funny.

"It's quite the Greek tragedy — “Josie” acting as nemesis to Marina’s hubris. "

No. If we're going to bring Greek myth into this, it's more like Medea killing her own innocent children to spite her ex-husband, an act of evil and disproportionate rage that is still considered horrifying thousands of years later.

[Quote]No, you can't decide to do whatever tasks you want and then "bill" your employer. I had a sitter for my kids years ago who would show up late and then think she could atone for it by doing my laundry. Uh, no. I didn't need or want my laundry done and I didn't ask her to do it. What I needed was for her to get her ass there on time so I wouldn't be late for work.

I think posters are trying to figure out when the tipping point occurred and Ortega finally snapped. I wonder if had the Krims offered her extra nanny duties would she have been as deeply offended.

I suspect Ortega may have perceived the Krim's offer as condescending. Who know, perhaps the loosening of the purse strings may have come with a bit of brow beating about how "you people" need to learn how to manage your life better. You know, kind of like the racist banter that goes on on this board. Ortega was a college graduate and former accountant. Also, not sure if the work relationship was exactly how the Krims portray it. I have several wealthy acquaintances who treat the help like staff like slaves. They bark orders at them, make unreasonable requests and never miss an opportunity to play mind games with them to reinforce the fact that they are in control.

R450

After the murders, Ortega communicated to a detective that she "had to do everything" and that Marina kept changing her daily schedule. I don't think Ortgega wanted more babysitting hours, I think she wanted more money per hour for watching 3 kids. She definitely didn't want to have to be a maid as well as being a nanny.

The Google translation was unclear about Marina's text in Spanish to Ortega the night of the murders. Was she asking Ortega to babysit her kids on Saturday or someone's else's kid? Ortega texted back that she couldn't do it and Marina said no problem.

But within a short time after that, Ortega butchered the 2 kids.

The job description on the foundation website gave me anxiety just reading it. I wouldn't want to work for the Krims but I do like that underprivileged kids are being helped to create art.

What is the going rate to babysit 3 kids under the age of 5? Are there actual nannies/ baby sitters who would agree to do it for any amount of money? Was teaching the kids Spanish part if the deal?

I went to Catholic schools and we didn't have art classes per se. I learned about art other ways and when I got older. DESPITE no art classes and a home when I was young without much extra money I developed a love of art and still managed to draw and paint. The foundation sounds nice and pretty but it isn't essential.

R450, wow, I did not know Ortega was college educated and a former accountant.

I just remember reading that the Doorman or Security Guard of the building said she spoke "broken" English.

R455

I hope you are kidding. Do you think someone's intelligence or work distinction is based on whether they speak "broken English?"

Ortega was born in the Dominican Republic. English is not her first language. Good grief. -------- To the other poster above, at the time (5 yrs ago) ,$15/hr was the low rate for the same UWS neighborhood for ONE kid. It was kind of a standard rate unless you were going through an agency.

The Spanish learned by the kids would be conversational. I don't think the nanny would have the kids reading and writing in textbooks.

A middle-aged man who moved a piece of furniture for me had been a doctor in Poland. Don't judge someone on their ability to speak English.

That said, no one should kill anyone else.

But if you don't speak English very well r456, you might have to settle for shitty wages like that, even though she may be brave and beautiful to you, she's a fucking immigrant who didn't speak English well and wasn't going to bag a cush job.

R458

The nanny is not "brave and beautiful " to me. She murdered to little babies in a horrible, painful way. And I don't characterize 30% of NYC as "fucking immigrants." They are immigrants as many of our ancestors were. I'm mixed - native american and european on both sides.

typo : 2 babies

Are you being deliberately obtuse r459? My point is that she shouldn't have felt like she was deigning to work for them considering her options were pretty fucking limited due to her language barrier,or maybe she could have felt it was beneath her, whatever, when you are in a strange land and aren't fluent in the language, you don't get to be a shot caller. Who cares where your ancestors are from?

R461

Obtuse? No that would be you and add in racist.

Agree with R461. Yeah, and what does R459's ancestry have to do with anything?

Is there any way she could have put her degree in accountancy to use here in the U.S.? I don't mean in terms of becoming a CPA, but couldn't she have gotten a job as bookkeeper at a business owned by Spanish speakers? There must be tons of small businesses that cater to the Hispanic community in NYC. Maybe she didn't have the wherewithal to find such a job given her mental disorders. Does anyone know her work history before the Krims? Had she just immigrated?

Is it really better to be a cab driver or a nanny in the US if you’re a multiple degree holder in your native country? I’m seriously asking, not being a Trumper. My own father was an immigrant, but he was a teenaged farm boy when he came here, and his standard of living was improved. I understand everyone’s story is different and it doesn’t always work out that way.

I was friendly with a woman who was a doctor in Argentina. She re-did some schooling here in the US and became qualified to practice. It was not easy, but she had the support of her husband and his family.

Anyway, just mulling it all over. For the record, I think Ortega should receive be incarcerated forever. I don’t care much for the Krims, but what they suffered is terrible.

I wonder if Ortega's mental health issues interfered with her getting or keeping better jobs or what others might consider more stressful jobs - stressful from a professional rather than reality-based point of view. She might have done okay working at some smaller non-profit or church doing their accounts - but I bet those jobs have ceased being full time jobs. Has her work history been discussed anywhere?

Why do people feel they have to keep justifying engaging in a discussion or analysis of this event? We KNOW no one deserves this. We KNOW nothing justifies it. But there ARE reasons for it even if they are just health related. You can't learn from life if you refuse to honestly examine it.

[quote]R416 I just know that $18/hr for 3 kids under age 6 (what the Krims were paying) is way too low

You get what you pay for.

R456, I was not joking. And I was not trying to be bitchy.

I have tons of friends who speak English as a second language, and I have actually taught ESL myself.

It is just my observation that people with more education will not speak "broken" English after living in an English speaking country for more than 2 years.

My only value judgment on Ortega is that she is a depraved wacko for murdering two babies.

R466, Amen.

[Quote]But if you don't speak English very well [R456], you might have to settle for shitty wages like that, even though she may be brave and beautiful to you, she's a fucking immigrant who didn't speak English well and wasn't going to bag a cush job.

Homo zay vot?

I thought of her, of course r470, but come on, Ortega is a troll to look at! A whore only hits the bigtime like that once in a lifetime, we've only seen it done twice.

R470, Just remember that baby poops and spits up just like very other baby.

"Is it really better to be a cab driver or a nanny in the US if you’re a multiple degree holder in your native country?"

That would depend entirely on how awful the home country is.

As for Ortega in NYC, well, being poor in one of these playground-of-the-rich cities is endlessly stressful, a death by a thousand cuts. The cost of living, particularly of housing, is rising through the roof and wages aren't keeping up, and gentrification is cutting into the amount of housing available to everyone in your income range. To be poor in a place like NYC or SF is to lack necessities and know damn well you're going to lack more and more in time, and to also lack enough money to move and start over somewhere away from that hell.

Not that any of that is an excuse for committing a horrific murder. Because you'll notice it isn't the poor and highly stressed who are committing mass murders of innocent people, it's the crazy and entitled.

So, you would think since it's so hard for the poor to live and work in NYC, finding a Nanny would be tough and the demand would be very high for the services of one who is experienced. Why couldn't she just quit and work for another family who would gladly pay her $50 per hour?

Her degree is in accounting. She was the manager of a print shop in Manhattan until she separated from her husband, at which time she returned to the Dominican Republic. She returned to the US, but was unable to find a permanent accounting position, so looked for work as a nanny.

"Why couldn't she just quit and work for another family who would gladly pay her $50 per hour? "

R474, she couldn't afford to quit work first and find a job later, it takes savings to do that and she had trouble paying rent. And in order to get a better job she'd need recommendations from her current employer, and what do you think the spoiled Krims would tell anyone who called to ask about hiring their nanny away? Or say to anyone who called to ask about an ex-nanny who mildly inconvenienced them by quitting?

I don't understand what goes through the heads of people who try to convince themselves (and others) that being poor is a trivial inconvenience.

[quote] I don't understand what goes through the heads of people who try to convince themselves (and others) that being poor is a trivial inconvenience.

Nothing but air goes through their heads, R476, because there's clearly nothing inside there to begin with.

[quote]I don't understand what goes through the heads of people who try to convince themselves (and others) that being poor is a trivial inconvenience.

Some people cannot grasp the REAL possibility of being trapped in poverty. Yep! education can help you. Yep! a better job can help you too. BUT, you have to be in a position to get that education and get that better job. That's hard to do when you're barely surviving in a current day-to day existence.

Of all the stresses in life, poverty is the worst. I speak from personal experience. It's terrifying to wonder if Con Ed or whoever your electric company is will shut you off. It's terrifying that becoming homeless is a very real possibility, it's hard to be hungry most of the time or to be without medical care when you're sick. Having your teeth rot in your mouth unable to go to a dentist isn't just painful, it's frightening too because you know if you ever again are physically able to look for a job no one will hire someone with rotting teeth. It's hard to not be able to see well because you can't afford eyeglasses. It's fucking hard to live without toilet paper and laundry detergent or the ability to afford a laundromat. Try getting around when you can't afford to take a subway or a bus. Forget about clothes and shoes, you wear what you have until it falls apart and you hope that if you take enough showers, sometimes with only water because you've run out of soap you won't smell too bad.

Many very poor people aren't yet homeless so you don't really see them but they are hanging on by the skin of their rotting teeth.

Poverty kills. Poor people die decades earlier than the rich and a good 10-12 years earlier than the middle class, what is left of them. Imagine you have a lousy, tiny, run down apartment and now developers age going to take that away from you so the rich can live in the luxury they're going to build where the last place in the city you could afford used to be. There is no money to move, no place to really move to and even if by a miracle you find a place there is no money for the 1st and last month.

Poverty means living in constant fear. Living in constant fear means your are stressed 24/7, even when you are able to sleep your dreams are terrible for the most part and if you do once in a while dream of being in a life that was better you cry when you wake up to the reality of your life now. People who are in a constant flight or fight situation have years and years taken off their lives and their looks, which doesn't help if you are ever in a position to try to get a job again. Now if a person is mentally ill on top of always living in fear, it can have tragic consequences.

Sad story I guess but why the hell is this trial in the Daily Mail every damn day?

R479, you forgot to mention the stress of living in high-crime neighborhoods, how in addition to all the troubles you mention there's a constant fear of assault, or of coming home to find the little you own gone. To be poor is to have the fight-of-flight instinct constantly stimulated, which takes a horrific toll on a person's physical and mental health. But of course, even a person who lives in the low-down godawful high-crime areas knows damn well how much worse it can get, if they're homeless and don't even have the inadequate security of a locked door.

And of course there are idiots like R474 who think it's trivially easy to get out of poverty.

R481, I did indeed forget to mention that and THAT is a huge contributor to fear and physical and mental illness. Excellent post. Yes, these days the idiots are more prevalent then ever. They feel more emboldened to spew their hatred and disgust for the poor. Just like with the huge increase in hate groups, it comes from the top down. Really started by Reagan with his lies about welfare queens and big bucks, but never has it been worse than now to be poor. At least back in Reagan's day the poor could sill find a place to live in most areas of the country, not today.

For some of the extremely wealthy idiot they do know they will never have to face poverty, but some who are doing okay now can't imagine how in the blink of an eye they will become one of the people they hate or make fun of. It can happen just that quickly.

It gives me some hope that there are people like you who do understand. Maybe if there is enough of us we can make a change someday.

[quote]... in the blink of an eye they will become one of the people they hate or make fun of. It can happen just that quickly.

I'll never forget some preacher that said something very profound. He said; "Don't laugh at the homeless. Many of us are just 1-3 paychecks to being homeless ourselves.'

That's very true for many. Especially true for the working poor.

[quote] oh, dial back the histrionics, [[R432]]. I don't think anyone on this thread has insinuated that the parents' attitudes are responsible for the nanny's insanity.

Well, you are wrong. Completely, utterly WRONG

....and the histrionics continue unabated.

And do not forget that this event scared the SHIT out of every working couple who hires a nanny as opposed to putting the child into daycare.

It's not uncommon for those who hire nannies to experience (fairly) frequent turnover.

Thank you R479 R481 R482 !

There aren't jobs in NYC thanks to the Banksters crashing the economy.

In 2016 in NYC, 50% of black men were unemployed. Minorities and people over 40 are hit hard.

Do people think that a 52 yr. old female, olive-skinned immigrant whose English is poor can run out and find a new job easily? 479/482 and 481 are telling it like it is.

Ortega has been in the US 20 years. I know other immigrants who have been in NYC even longer and still speak "broken English." There are Hasidic boys on the UWS who speak only Hebrew and do not know English at all.

I don't have much use for these bitches that spit the babies out, then let someone else raise them, but I'd encourage the rich bitch to beat the hell out of contemporary Nannie Doss.

R487, the Hasidim speak Yiddish to each other. Hebrew is for prayer.

And I bet they speak English too.

Wow! After reading that article at R489, I see there were clear symptoms of Ortega's rapidly deteriorating mental health. I don't udnerstand how the Krims missed it. Was Ortega able to mask it while working?

Without judgment (really), I think it's easier than we'd like to stay blind and rationalize. Although since Marina was in the house with the kids and the nanny, it's not like she was in a desperate situation where no nanny=no ability to get to work. (so I guess I am judging. never mind).

We ALL have to be careful of reaching a judgement. We're looking at events from the outside. We were not in it on a day-to-day basis. We've talked about Ortega and her possible struggles but maybe Marina had struggles too. Maybe her marriage wasn't going well. Maybe she was in some type of funk because she felt that she had lost herself--a REAL feeling for many women. At one time you're a young girl with hopes and dreams. You do college. You have a career. Then one day you wake up to screaming children, household help with attitudes that you have to deal with, and some man that demands food no later than 7:00... What happened to that girl with all of those hopes and dreams?

R491, or perhaps the sister could have phoned the Krims?

Too late now, but that would have been a good idea.

Looks like the nanny should have had a blog. That might have been more useful.

We don't know why Mrs. Krim didn't realize the nanny was going out of her mind, and we'll never know as neither she nor her husband will ever be honest with the public.

Maybe the nanny was good at hiding her symptoms, maybe she did all her insane babbling about alien abduction in Spanish. Maybe Krim was putting of the firing because she dreaded not having a nanny, maybe she's one of those self-absorbed people who think other people are playing crazy or desperate to annoy her. Maybe she the husband found out how much a proper nanny would cost and said to keep Ortega on for the time being, maybe Ortega wasn't really crazy and faked symptoms around people other than her employer as part of her plan to perpetuate an act of pure fucking evil.

[Quote]We ALL have to be careful of reaching a judgement. We're looking at events from the outside. We were not in it on a day-to-day basis.

Reaching for judgement? Had the Krims had been black, they would not have received an ounce of sympathy on this board. Instead, some posters would be coming to the nanny's defense, "Poor thing, imagine the hell she must have put up with, every day having to take orders from a black couple and deal with their fucking bullshit and "attitude." Can't say I blame her for offing 2 future welfare leeches," or "this is why blacks are, even the one's with money, incapable of rational thought. Only a low IQ moron would would have missed the signals, probably were paying her under the table. Why were these grifters allowed to live in that upscale building anyway?"

What ridiculous racist fantasyland do you live in Bitter Betty @ R497? Making it all about black victimhood even when there are no black people in the fucking story.

One might ask the same question of you, ugly, bury your head in the sand, frau toad. My post is based on years of observation on this board.

Are you fucking reading this thread at all, Johnny Drama at r497? Everyone fucking hates the Krims so does that make you happy? Rest assured, everyone is equally hated here.

I wonder if this case has had any effect or reevaluation among the NYC mommy set in regard to their nannies who are paid off the books. Did they switch to an agency or put them on the books or up their hourly rate? It made me think and two weeks ago my cleaning lady asked me "are you happy with my cleaning?" and so last week I gave her a twenty dollar raise. She was due anyway but reading this thread really got me thinking about the class disparity issues in the Krim case yadda, yadda.

The Nanny's sister gone get fired!

R501, $20 a what raise?

R503,120/day. 7-8 hours cleaning

This nanny and her family are full of SHIT. Her sister "says" she noticed her sister's behavior, yet she did NOTHING. Not a FUCKING THING. The friend says the same thing. She did NOTHING. But they expect the Krims to do something. And to send her on a vacation is fucking preposterous. This murdering cunt was their employee. Not their daughter. They didn't owe her another vacation (they already gave and paid for one for her and her kid). They didn't owe her anything but her salary

And they were supposed to give her a vacation? That is some damned BULLSHIT. They are saying this woman is mentally ill. A vacation won't cure that. They made this whole "story" up

The whole thing with the murderers family is that the rich people should have done this, the rich people should have done that. That nanny really was obsessed and jealous of Marina Krim. What an evil bitch. And what a pathetic family. A bunch of fucking losers. Pure shit. Send them all back to where they came from

[quote] Maybe the nanny was good at hiding her symptoms, maybe she did all her insane babbling about alien abduction in Spanish.

That's complete and utter BULLSHIT. Bull Shit. Schizophrenics aren't good at hiding their symptoms. You watch too much TV if you think they do. As someone with a medical background, you have no idea how pathetically stupid that notion is

And again, the nanny's family "supposedly" saw all this and didn't do a thing. They didn't mind the nanny "supposedly" cracking up and being around her own son, their children and the Krim's children. BULL FUCKING SHIT. But just going with their bullshit story, if that's true, this is all on them for not doing anything for their own family member

How "convenient" that the nanny's sister and her friend are the only ones with these recollections? The friend is such a bad liar, it's pathetic. She "saw" her "stabbing at her food". Jesus Christ. Give me a break. That is such BULLSHIT. That is so fucking laughable. These silly Spanish cunts can't even be arsed to go to the library and look at a book about mental illness so they could tell some credible lies. Instead they make up BULLSHIT stories that are absolutely preposterous.

[quote] 120/day. 7-8 hours cleaning

that's not true

It think it was 5 hrs of cleaning. And the woman didn't have to do it if she didn't want to. She said she wanted extra money. They offered her a way to earn some. What the jealous nanny really wanted was for them to just give her extra money (as if they were responsible for her and the situations she got herself into). And that IS what she wanted. When they didn't give it to her, she murdered their kids

It's unfortunate that they treated the nanny like family. She was a selfish, jealous woman and felt like they should be responsible for her and owed her something. They didn't owe her shit. And looking at this woman, she doesn't have a single redeeming quality about her. Not one. It's too bad NY doesn't have the death penalty. The world would be a better place without her in it

[quote] We've talked about Ortega and her possible struggles but maybe Marina had struggles too.

Oh, definitely. They might have been out of her favorite pear-scented hand cream once or twice.

[R505] (same as 506?), you should consider a couple of deep breaths. Your post(s) borders on hysteria.

R507, you seem to be confused.

The "$120/day. 7-8 hours cleaning" that you deemed "not true" is NOT a description of what the Krims paid Stabby Nanny, it's what R501 pays his maid now that he gave her a twenty dollar raise.

Remember the SNL sketch many years back "Ruining It For Everyone"....this was back in '92..'93.

I feel like Stabby has "ruined it" for other nannies who truly become a member of the family and are truly trusted and loved.

The whole "she was treated as part of the family" mantra is most likely Marina's perception and bears no resemblance to reality. According to Ortega, she didn't consider Marina's acts of kindness like giving her a hand-me-down Ann Taylor jacket or taking her on vacation with them as benevolent acts. In fact, the Krim's actions may have helped to fuel Ortega's psychotic resentment. Picture her packing her bags for what she thinks is a generous gift, a paid vacation from her employers, but once she arrives they dump all 3 of the kids off on her to go frolick and enjoy themselves. She realizes she's been duped. Back in NY she would have been able to perform her duties and leave at the end of the day, however, now she's expected to help out 24/7 while she's on "vacation," and she is not paid for the duration of the trip.

[quote] This nanny and her family are full of SHIT. Her sister "says" she noticed her sister's behavior, yet she did NOTHING. Not a FUCKING THING. The friend says the same thing. She did NOTHING. But they expect the Krims to do something

First of all Ortega was an adult,and not,sure what the sister could have done.

What the Krims should have done is kept Ortega away from their children. No one is suggesting they take care of Ortega. Giving her a "vacation" would have been a way to get her out of the house and let her find the time to seek help or just destress. Acting stressed out or oddly is not what you want in your home, watching your children.

R513 never saw the movie "Nanny" or read the book. It's very common for families to take nannies with them on vacation. It's a working vacation. It's not a freebee. She probably got some time off to see her own family, but it would be stupid to expect she was invited solely to do her own thing. FFS, I'm sure the Krim family could have thought of a dozen people they would rather invite on vacation if they were going to treat someone to a no strings, all expenses paid trip--like a family member or a friend. You don't ask an employee to go on vacation with you unless there is some work involved. Sounds like Stabbin' Nanny didn't really understand her place in their lives.

[quote]Acting stressed out or oddly is not what you want in your home, watching your children.

Oh my sides. If every snowflake who showed up for work "acting stressed" got a vacation, no one would ever work and nothing would get done. Unbelievable. LOL.

Relax R505. The lying sister and her dopey friend just put a few more nails in Stabbin' Nanny's coffin. You should be glad they failed so miserably to provide any good testimony on her behalf. They are both pathetic. And that's a good thing.

What is the ethnic background of the parents?

[Quote]Relax [R505]. The lying sister and her dopey friend just put a few more nails in Stabbin' Nanny's coffin.

How, by coroborating the Defense's assertion that Ortega was driven to a psychotic break?

R518, IDK, but their surname is the same as the married name of the late Dr. Mathilde Krim. Dr. Krim's spouse was an American born Jew.

Never trust the help!

[quote]How, by coroborating the Defense's assertion that Ortega was driven to a psychotic break?

LOL. They did no such thing. They TRIED to do that, but failed. Worst witnesses ever.

This is what we see every day in court. We already have a verdict. She looks like pure evil.

Nice tats on the court officer. NOT.

R523, really? She looks like an grumpy older woman. If it's so obvious that she looks like "pure evil," why didn't Krim see it? That seems like a big oversight on Krim's part.

I wonder if Ortega has a Spanish interpreter by her side throughout the proceedings.

The nanny-hiring behavior of Manhattan families has not changed one bit. It’s a pain to find someone good.

A 12-year old child we know has a part-time sitter to pick her up from school (most middle school kids walk by themselves) and watch her and make dinner/do laundry/clean until the parents get home from work. I’ve known these people for a few years. The nanny spends as much time traveling to this gig as she does working at it. She came to our place once with the kid, drunk as a skunk, and I saw a fifth of whisky in the back pocket of her jeans. Since the kid is old enough to deal, I didn’t tell the mother what I observed. The nanny is a nice lady and she needs her job. Then again, what’s my obligation to make sure the kid is safe? What if the drunk nanny set the apartment on fire or something?

The nanny isn’t going to find (or keep) another full time nanny gig at this point. The parents aren’t going to find someone desperate enough to deal with a resentful brat and pitiful hours. It’s a stalemate.

I could tell story after story about the nanny/parent things I’ve seen. Bad behavior from all quarters. One friend’s nanny fucking OVERDOSED with a preschooler in her care! The nanny survived, BTW, and the child was okay.

My point is, it is inconvenient to fire and replace a nanny. And I’ve been approached by countless women on the street over the years, looking for child care gigs. It’s fucked up.

Ortega's actions are eerily similar to this case where this woman's sociopathic son killed his sister to get back at her. In both cases the weapon of choice was a knife and the crime scene was bloody.

Yeah no shit r528, hey if Ortega gets off maybe Charity can hire her as a nanny since she has no qualms about her replacement kid talking to her psycho son.

The fact that there issome family out there that is letting Ortega's sister watch their kids, and has no appreciation for the suffering the Krims may be going through having to run into her on a daily basis, should tell you something about how these types of families operate. Sure, she is not her sister, but I would always be wondering, if in fact they were a product of similar biology or their environment, could the sister's mental health suddenly deteriorate?

What, so the family should fire Ortega's sister so that the Krims don't have to see her every day? What kind of thinking is this?

R531

I'd fire her. Not only because of Krims, but for the sake of the children. Why risk it?

I'd most definitely fire her for the reasons I've stated, and in addition for her faulty logic in suggesting the Krims are responsible because they, not her, nor other family members, should have realized Yoselyn was becoming unhinged, and therefore, should have paid her to take time off. Her reasoning suggests she has poor judgement. I don't want anyone with poor judgement anywhere near my kids. Capisce?

Capisco. You're expecting a high level of altruism and sensitivity from this woman while showing precious little of it for her.

I believe the poor salary (for three very small kids) is at the heart of the issue. Coupled with having the nanny see "all" the Krims had (her perception) on a daily basis, her resentment and bitterness just grew and grew. When my daughter was 5 years old, I paid our babysitter (in CT) $15 per hour in 2000. After a year, I increased it to $18 per hour (which was a LOT of money for one kid who did not require diaper changing, etc.). In this day and age, what the Krims paid the nanny was highway robbery. That said, however, this does not justify what the nanny did.

R534

We are talking about two brutally killed children. What altruism, what sensitivity?

[quote]R524 Nice tats on the court officer. NOT.

Is it of a pointy-hatted gnome??

The sister didn't do it, R 534. To fire her because you think she was insensitive to retain a job in the Krims' new building (where the sister was already working) is at least absurd.

[quote][R503],120/day. 7-8 hours cleaning

$120 for scrubbing your whole house seems low to me. That's $15/hr for 8 hrs of hard work.

Does she clean inside your fridge? How about laundry? Your bed sheets?

R538

Well, she is defending their murderer in public and trying to put the blame on parents, who are possibly not different from her own bosses. At best, she is very stupid. At worst, sociopath like her sister.

[quote] $120 for scrubbing your whole house seems low to me. That's $15/hr for 8 hrs of hard work.

How is that low? She's cleaning, not doing math calculations. She's not even digging ditches. $15 per hour seems actually high to me. The employer isn't a corporation or even a business.

R540, your reasoning is so squirrelly as to not be reasoning at all.

r541 I agree, it's not bad at all. My roomie gives ours like 30 bucks an hour, half of which I pay. 80 bucks for about 2 and a half hours.

Was she not allowed to quit? Did she have a contract to work for $15/hr? If not she was free to find better paying job elsewhere. From the sounds of it, Nannys are hard to come by in NYC. She could have landed a better paying job pretty easily. And, no, you don't need a reference from your current employer. Everyone understands that is an awkward situation. You provide references from prior employers while explaining that you are not comfortable with your current employer knowing you are planning to quit.

People don't get paid based on what they believe they 'need' to make. If that were the case, I'm sure there are plenty of spendthrift Nannys who would like to demand their employers pay them $200k per year. Compensation is based on the simple law of supply and demand. If you are being paid a competitive wage for the work you provide then you are being compensated fairly. If not (sounds like it in this case), then you quit and get another job. Simple.

I think it's safe to say that killing kids isn't a good strategy for getting a pay raise.

R526

There is a Spanish interpreter who sits across the desk from the nanny (near the corner). She is shown in one of the videos at the beginning of the trial where the female defense atty is sitting next to Ortega and she's talking to the judge. The atty then addresses the interpreter saying, "Are you going to talk to her or me?"

The nanny's son testifies...

^^LOL. Another nail in her coffin.

NY is civilized and thankfully has outlawed the death penalty.

R37, you are racist and classist trash. Only racists call POC animals. Very rarely do see the word animal used for a white peep. I also don't know any poor people who are incapable of functioning in society as you so disgustingly put it. Fuck off, trash, before I kill you.

Thanks for article, R546. The most interesting thing in it, for me, was that the son could not look at his mother while he was testifying.

He says "accident" but he probably meant "incident."

Or he just can't bring himself to say "murder" when speaking about his mother.

R552, for sure!!

The following is from CL. They seem to ask for a lot to me;

Live in Nanny/Housekeeping job available ASAP! Must have formal exp! (Upper East Side) compensation: $800/net week

This family needs someone that can work every weekend and must have long term NYC references!

Schedule: Wed to Sunday Live in

Family consists: 2 adults and 2 children 4 yrs and 8 yrs old

Requirement/Duties:

* Full housekeeping

* Full childcare

* Simple healthy cooking meals

* Laundry and Ironing

* Must know how to set the table formal

* Must be a team player (One extra housekeeper part time)

* Must be able to swim, be energetic and reliable

* We must have verifiable references who we can contact!!!**

Live in Nanny/Housekeeper needed (New York)

compensation: $1000 gross per week,D.O.E....

Live in Nanny/Housekeeper needed for a very nice family in New York.

Job is live in five days a week,working weekends. Days off Monday and Tuesday.

Must be legal.

Fluent in English.

Smart and Energetic.

Must cook simple healthy meals for the family.

Must have formal housekeeping experience. Knowledge about setting the table formally.

Able to travel with family.

Must have great check-able references.

Driving is a big plus.

Interview will be this week and job starts A.S.A.P.

Pls, send your resume to

I thought Nanny Stabber was drowned in "The Crucible."

Ortega's attorney is asleep at the wheel. She should have had someone on her team prep Ortega's jackass relatives so they didn't say anthing idiotic on the stand. Sheesh, have your secretary call them if your too busy.

R544, They should have cut to the chase:

"Wanted: Pseudo-wife and mother. Paltry wages."

[quote]It is just my observation that people with more education will not speak "broken" English after living in an English speaking country for more than 2 years.

As odd and baffling as it is, it's definitely possible for someone to actually spend decades in a country and not even learn basic English phrases/sentences.

A neighbor of mine is a woman from China who's been in the US for 25+ years, but if you spoke to her, you'd think she'd just stepped off the boat from China. She can barely hold a conversation in English. And I know that prior to coming to the States, she worked as a pediatric nutritionist, so she has whatever type of education that profession entails (she hasn't worked at all since arriving in the States, however. Instead, she became a full time caretaker for their profoundly autistic son).

It's beyond me how these people manage to put up with years and years of not being able to effectively communicate with the majority of the people around them (personally, I'd go crazy), but well, there you have it.

[quote]R558 It's beyond me how these people manage to put up with years and years of not being able to effectively communicate with the majority of the people around them (personally, I'd go crazy)

I know! They must be very smart to be able to navigate all that in a foreign country, with fewer communication resources than we have.

It's cool they don't just abandon their heritage and culture.

[quote] It's beyond me how these people manage to put up with years and years of not being able to effectively communicate with the majority of the people around them (personally, I'd go crazy), but well, there you have it.

I had a terrible cold last month that turned into nearly three weeks of laryngitis. It was horrible! It was a real pain in the ass to not be able to immediately respond to someone/something, but to instead have to slowwwly and laboriously write down what I wanted to say. And I'm not even a chatty gal, I can't imagine what torture that would be for a motormouth!

Ortega was working part-time for the Krims. No wonder she was broke and got sucked into the selling cosmetics . I wonder what hours she worked for the Krims.

typo: selling cosmetics

Another nanny was afraid to have a playdate w/ Ortega and the Krims the day before the murders.

I call bullshit on the fellow nanny. People with fake stories always come out of the woodwork during sensational news events.

They can easily cross check with Marina or the daughter whether the playdate was cancelled.

How would the daughter, then 3 years old, know about such a thing. Maybe even Marina wouldn't know the details, not that I would trust Marina to "remember" accurately anything that might help the defense.

R564, not that I don't agree with your skepticism in general. ALL witnesses and evidence should be thoroughly questioned. And it's very hard and strategically tricky to be too hard on victims in cross examination before a jury even when you really need to be.

R566, it's worth asking the mother and daughter in the off chance that they can recollect the details of that day. This nanny's testimony again brings up the still unanswered question as to why the Krims failed to notice, or noticed but ignored, Ortega's mental unraveling.

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Interesting, [R569]; thanks. I wasn't following this story early on.

R568

I think Marina testified that she did notice changes in Ortega but she hadn't done anything to warrant firing her. She had been their nanny for 2 years.

R570

The NY Post crime reporters have the best NYC police sources so their stories are worth reading.

The NY Daily News is the other big tabloid although they now have instituted a pay wall.

Daily Mail UK (they have a US version) carries lots of stories and pictures about the murders. They go for sensationalism.

Other than the nanny, I don't think there's anyone to blame here. You can notice things without really registering whether they mean something/what they mean, and I thin everyone's capable of rationalizing events to allow them to take the line of least resistance--which I suspect is what Marina and husband did. They're not culpable; they just made a tragic mistake. Same goes for other nannies, the nanny's family, etc. Everyone failed but nobody's to blame; they're just human.

Thanks, [R572]

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Babar, the Krim's dog, looks to be a lab. I wonder if he tried to intercede and protect the kids. He is pictured below.

I would imagine he'd feel conflicted like Nicole Brown's Nikita with OJ, since Babar knew Ortega.

R576 , that's OJ's Akita whose name was Kato.

You said it, R557.

Marina and the Nanny had an "epic fight" the day before the murders. I don't remember reading that in any NYC tabloids.

R577

Kato lived with Nicole and the kids on Rockingham.

Typo: NOt Rockingham. sorry. Lived w/ the kids in the condo , didn't he?

The Simposn's Akita walked through the crime scene at the condo.

I can't explain it, but every single time I read something new about the Krims (like the Radar piece above) I am put off by them all over again.

R573, that actually goes to what troubles me about this case. The Krims were responsible for their children’s well-being. Why were they willing to leave their children with someone who seemed angry and troubled?

Because it was the line of least resistance and allowed them to go on with their routine. After all, everyone has bad days, right?

R584

I've only read a couple of pages from Marina's blog. Yes, she's a narcissist who favored the son and Nessie was 3rd in the pecking order. But others up-thread have pointed out Marina isn't that different from the millions of other mommy bloggers.

Tonight looking at Marina's blog w/ the photos of the 3 kids at the table and other photos taken outside, I am struck by the bad judgment. Leo could have fallen off of the table and Lulu is topless in pink panties. Her back is turned to the camera but this a dream photo for the millions of pedophiles out there. The pedos nearby could easily find and stalk Lulu based on all of the info Marina reveals in the blog.

Then, there is the photo of Nessie standing up on the back of the frame of Leo's stroller and he is strapped in the stroller. Very dangerous. The stroller could have flipped and seriously injured both of them.

I assume the Krims didn't have a Nanny Cam otherwise we would have heard about it by now. It probably wouldn't have stopped anything, anyway but still... Both kids could have

eta:

Found this quote apeaking about Nessie by the Krims after the kids' funeral/memorial.

“It is of utmost importance to us that she is afforded the opportunity to grow up privately, like any other kid,” revealed her protective parents.

But of course, The Krim's post videos of Nessie Youtube ice-skating, and she's featured in video for the Lulu and Leo Foundation website.

typo: ^^^speaking

Is our forensic psychiatrist here?

Is it possible that the Nanny could choose not to tell her son about hearing videos, the shadow people and the black guy following her in order to protect her son?

I could see that the nanny would tell her sister and friends but not her son. But, is this possible with a true schizophrenic or would she have no control over what she tells different people?

What did you think about the son's testimony that he got a call from his mom's missing cell phone after the murders and that it was a male voice that said, "I need help."

Could someone have been gas-lighting the nanny into believing she was being chased by devils? Could it have something to do with the woman who owed her money from accepting the cosmetics inventory but not paying for them? The woman could have had her BF or male family member do menacing stuff. I'm not saying that it triggered the murders but it could be one more stressor for the nanny.

^^^ I have some weird auto correct happening.

typo: Voices not videos

[quote]R583 I can't explain it, but every single time I read something new about the Krims (like the Radar piece above) I am put off by them all over again.

I know. I hate this, from the article:[italic] "Marina didn’t think Yoselyn was interacting with the kids enough."[/italic]

Jeez...she's not there to be their best friend, she's there to make sure they don't fall out a window!

Yes, that ^^, and what [R587] noted about Nessie. There seem to be constant pronouncements of what admirable people they are (both now and before the murders) that's somewhat at odds with their behavior.

R591

I get a bit nauseous reading the parents' various blogs entries.

Look at how the nanny was living after she and her son were evicted from their Bronx apt. At least they that had a place to stay with her sister in Hamilton Heights on Riverside Dr (Hamilton Heights is Harlem&much closer to the Krims than the Bronx).

Pictured is the nanny's bedroom. Sad to see the clothesline hanging inside the bedroom with the white t-shirts. She was paying her sister $200. I Don't know if that includes her son's room and whether he had his own room or was sharing w/ a relative inside the sister's apt.

The plastic drawers are pitiful but most of us in NYC have them somewhere in our apts.

More nanny family photos and a recreation of the Krim's bathroom crime scene that shows the position of everyone.

Also a very wrenching photo of Marina crying in the back of the ambulance.

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wow r587, says the woman who put up porn-y pics of her kids...I agree, that picture in r576 seems pedo-esque and cringeworthy. And yeah, r589, what's this sudden bullshit about a male voice calling and saying that devil type shit on her now missing phone? I mean, her phone may be conveniently gone but can they not still go back and look at the call logs on it? If that were at all true then they could even say this threatening man is actually the one who killed the kids, I don't believe there was a phone call like that at all and they are just trying to muddy the water here. I would think her defense attorneys would be adamant that they trace that call and find out who it was, if it really happened, but it didn't so I guess it doesn't matter.

It could be that a lot of what we're seeing with the Krims is that they are both marketers. They both work/worked in marketing and social media. Marina was a kindergarten teacher at some point.

So the over-sharing, blogging could just spill out naturally.

With the tanking of the economy by Wall St. in 2008, many jobs got cut in publishing, magazines, TV, film and all sorts of media. Women who had high-powered jobs were let go and they had to scramble to find a way to earn money (or if they had rich husbands/partners keep their self-esteem high and creativity going).

They saw blogs as a way to bring in money from ad banners if they had high traffic or they had a dream of having a TV show and merchandising like Pioneer Woman. Or they wanted to be hired to appear on TV shows, news broadcasts as a life-style expert.

The blogger mom of Six in the City is an example.

In NYC, men who lost jobs and couldn't find a replacement started charities. It was a way of earning a salary.

I'm not saying that this is the reason the Krims started the Lulu and Leo Foundation. All I can say is that a friend's husband sits on the board of 2 arts charities in the SF Bay Area and he has to attend fundraisers every night rather than have dinner at home with his wife. It is very tough raising money.

In NYC, charities/non-profits saw their donations fall dramatically due to the Wall St. Crash of 2008 and Madoff stealing $millions of rich people's money. I don't know if Madoff victims have gotten full restitution. I know some people got something or were supposed to get some reimbursement.

Thanks for the graduation photo of Ortega.

She is smiling, but it is a tentative one, and her eyes are sad.

So Ortega worked part time, but had the authority to set up play dates for the little ones?

I think the 2 mom's set up the play dates. The 2 nannies could communicate the time and date requests but I think the 2 moms talk on the phone to confirm it.

It could be Marina wanted the play date, Ortega told the other nanny. The other nanny could have made the decision herself not to let her charge go. I don't know if the other nanny told her boss about the invitation.

It's not unusual for kids with nannies to have a whole social life with kids the parents don't know.

^^^^ typo moms. not mom's.