American Crime Story: V̶e̶r̶s̶a̶c̶e̶ Cunanan Thread 3

[quote]I was into the backward narrative in the beginning, but now I really need to see Andrew be something other than creepy/crazy.

It does become very one-note, and given Andrew is our main character he needs to feel more like a real human being.

[quote]Andrew sent many amusing romantic love letters to David when they were apart (which was most of the time). I think maybe you’re kind of smart & I’m a little undone because your gifts were so sweet. They made me feel good about the world. I can’t wait to see you. Until then I just content myself with these photos in hues of ice, pearl, mist, ash (not stark, stylish) and remember through-the-veil-of-imagination with them. Yours, Drew

Are these online somewhere?

I think he's such an odd person that it's not that he doesn't feel real, but it is a hard character to spend so much time with. Hopefully in the rest of the episodes pre murder he's a bit less intense and not as dark.

But if the story normally we'd start off seeing Andrew be "more normal", and then watch his unmasking as everything falls apart. I think it would be a more rewarding experience.

Well when the show is over one can watch it in reverse order of how it's aired if they want.

This is an excellent show but very tough to watch. There is no relief from the darkness at all.

He is such a sick fuck and so evil

Darren Criss us fine. But he may regret being associate with the role for yearss ahead

Uh, this is a role of a lifetime for Darren Criss r8.

R8 I think based on the praise he's getting that this will only help his career.

Never play a gay man, you’ll never have a career after that.

Looks like people were impressed, Cody Fern lands a regular role in the final season of House of Cards.

[quote]Never play a gay man, you’ll never have a career after that.

No longer true about str8 / publicly str8 actors.

How the hell is the singer in that bar scene almost 60 years old? She looks quite a bit younger.

r12 Can I have my old job back? Please?

Aimee Mann.

I did not like it. Of course that might have been because Andrew Trump Cunanan was a really horrible person. You can not look at anything that he did, without feeling extremely sick. I am glad that the director shows him as the horrible form of life that he was.

Bette Midler's daughter was the frau coworker who showed up at the apatment.

I'm looking forward to the next few episodes, which will show Cunanan's life falling apart and it'll be nice to see that happen to the asshole. Despite knowing it's what leads him to the murder spree, I'll enjoy his suffering.

Have we seen the buns yet?

R20 Whose buns?

Darren's or Ricky's

R18 thanks! I thought she looked familiar...

r22 Yes, we've seen both. Haven't you been paying attention?

Darren and Ricky have both showed their bare butts. Hopefully there's more later this season.

The preview for the season showed there is another Criss butt shot.

R24 I'm sorry, I'm a non-American.

I will say while I liked the job Fern did, the character he was portraying didn't really resemble what we know of the real David Madson.

He wasn't this soft-spoken bambi like figure. He was a vivacious smooth-talker who was also pretty built.

This series is an unbelievably compelling and unflinching look at a psychopath. Very well done and bravo to Darren Criss. Who knew he had this kind of talent. One of the best performances I've ever seen on TV. And when Andrew Cunanan finally gets trapped and offs himself, it will be such a relief to be rid of this monster.

[quote]One of the best performances I've ever seen on TV.

Mary! He is doing well playing the creepy killer, but come on now. His performance hasn't even had much that much depth to it.

[quote] I'm sorry, I'm a non-American

.....who has the internet.

Thank God next week we get back to the glamorous Versaces. Why have the Versace name in the show's title if it's going to be all about Cunanan? This show has quickly gone the way of American Horror Story - nonstop depravity with nothing to break up the suffocating darkness.

Bette's daughter Sophie is ten years younger than me but looks five years older than me. I guess she got the worst parts of her parents. I will say though that this was the best acting I've seen from her after seeing her in three films (Woody Allen's Irrational Man, Wizard of Lies and A Woman A Part).

I'm really not a fan of the constant jumping around in time. I understand they're doing it because otherwise we wouldn't see the Versace family until the final episode but the time jumps are annoying as fuck. Instead of moving forward, we keep moving backward.

[quote]t looks like the show is ignoring this little factoid, but Andrew was the second bad-boyfriend David had had. He had another stalker ex that harassed him, at first they looked into him as a possible suspect in David's death.

Each episode is going back in time, you have no idea if it will be mentioned at all.

I wonder why he attracted killer/stalker types.

R2 I don’t think the letters from Andrew to David are online. They are quoted extensively in Three Month Fever, the book about Cunanan by Gary Indiana.

They sure made Madson look like a wuss, like he could have escaped but didn't. Maybe he was a weak personality or in shock. He could have put an elbow in his face many times.

It's also boring (but does succeed in being creepy)

Who in their right mind enters an apartment with blood all over? Not believable even for Bette's daughter!!

When you've seen people killed in front of you and threatened with death how did you handle it?

And Cuba Gooding Jr. STILL looks nothing like OJ!!

This episode is easily the worst one so far.

Thanks R32!

You’re the first person in this, or the other six hundred post thread to mention that he doesn’t care for the “jumping around” way the series is unfolding.

Thanks again. Thank you.

R37, I was thinking the same thing! I would retreat immediately and call the police elsewhere! (The two women - one David's co-worker, who tried to get a response from David's apt, and apt. mgr used key to unlock his apt, dog exits thankfully, but apt. all bloodied).

I'd tell you to get fucked R41 but I wouldn't anyone to get your disease.

[quote]Thanks [R32]! You’re the first person in this, or the other six hundred post thread to mention that he doesn’t care for the “jumping around” way the series is unfolding. Thanks again. Thank you. —Oh my fucking God.

Just as R39 is the 500th to post that Gooding Jr looked nothing like OJ on a thread that is not about either (evidently, the 1,000 threads that existed when the series aired and during the subsequent awards season were not enough).

Did the part about the co-worker entering Madson's apartment actually happen?

R38 I think a few days later I would have escaped when I had a chance. But you are right, I have never witnessed a murder. I still don't think this is a sympathetic portrayal of Madson.

r39 Cuba looked a lot more like OJ than Cody Fern resembles Madson.

We are meant to believe Maddon was in a state of confusion and afraid of doing prison time.

Everyone is assuming Madison was totally innocent, and there's actually uncertainty about that.

What would be his motive, R49?

This episode was for all gay men.

With the exception of one guy in this thread and two in the previous one, it seems completely wasted on the people who post here.

The story of David’s last days alive was horrifyingly beautiful, mesmerizing. He knows the whole time that he is going to die, and uses that time to try to understand the meaning of his life.

The cliche of a gay man’s relationship with his mother has been explored far more than the need so many of us felt to have our father’s approval & love.

This episode was clearly a labor of love, a gift to gay men, and filmed & acted impeccably.

I don’t care if this story follows Maureen Orth’s source material or not. The Vanity Fair reporting was far better and not homophobic.

Make a fucking documentary R32 et al if it’s so important to you.

What are lashing out for about documentaries, R51? Because I want there to be more Versace in a show called Versace? Because I liked Sophie's performance in this? Because I hate the jumping back and forth in time every single episode?

Or are you just on the rag?

He was in shock and being manipulated by Cunanan,.......he was constantly being told he would go to prison as an accomplice, he would be an embarrassment to his family, nobody would believe him, etc........and you just know Cunanan told him he would swear Madson was a part of it.

Did David have parents who accepted his sexual orientation? I thought the scenes with the father was quite touching.

[quote]Mary! He is doing well playing the creepy killer, but come on now. His performance hasn't even had much that much depth to it.

Agreed. I happen to think Iwan Rheon did a brilliant job as uber-sociopath Ramsay Bolton in GOT but that still won't qualify him for one of the best ever actors on TV.

R51 Orth did the Vanity Fair reporting too. Her book is based on that work.

Did your mother huff kerosene or aerosol cleaning chemicals while she was pregnant with you R47?.

R51 I wasn't as touched as you were, but I did think that the scenes with the father were poignant. The Aimee Mann scene was too hokey for me.

Did Aimee Mann actually sing in front of Cunanan or was she supposed to be playing someone else?

FFS r59....shes not based on a real person.....its just background for the scene.

I liked Aimee's cover of Drive.

[quote] I don’t care if this story follows Maureen Orth’s source material or not. The Vanity Fair reporting was far better and not homophobic.

Maureen Orth did the reporting for Vanity Fair.

Sorry R62 & R56...I am schooled.

R60 I asked a simple question. No need to be a cunt about it. Jesus.

The reason I asked is because she's a famous singer and they lit her in a way as if to make her look younger as she might have been around that time. Go pop a Midol why don't you?

[quote]Everyone is assuming Madison was totally innocent, and there's actually uncertainty about that.

Given Andrew killed David and went on to kill several more people, it is easy to believe that David had nothing to do with Jeff's murder and it was all Andrew.

Yes we don't know for sure, but I am happy to give the memory of David the benefit of the doubt.

My biggest problem: Caring about Cunanan. He is so cartoonlike and unlikable.

And while Criss can be entertaining, he lacks the chops to pull of the big dramatic moments. That long shot pulling up to him alone at the table in the bar lacked the impact it needed because he couldn't sell it as an actor.

I had to laugh because it looked like Andrew Cunanan was wearing Mrs Patrick Campbell's mom jeans.

[quote]Did the part about the co-worker entering Madson's apartment actually happen?

No. His coworkers did go David's apartment but no one opened the door (even thought they thought they heard whispering inside).

They told the building manager, who did later go by and open the door. She is the one that saw the body wrapped up in the rug and called the cops.

[quote]Did David have parents who accepted his sexual orientation? I thought the scenes with the father was quite touching.

Define accepting. His father didn't approve of homosexuality and made that clear, but they still loved their son. It broke their heart when he was being accused of being an accomplice to murder. They were outspoken defenders of David through the whole ordeal.

Yeah, I thought David was a body builder? In this film, he was portrayed as a cowardly fool. Everyone should know that once you have a murderer in your presences you start fighting right away until you do some damage. I know that from my own experience.

Sigh

I think there should have been more set-up for Finn's character. The killing just came out of the blue and we had no sense for who he was.

I think that is when the decision to play it backwards (which did not work for Merrily, We Roll Along) shows its limitations.

[quote]His coworkers did go David's apartment but no one opened the door

A daughter of mine MUST have a speaking role, darling! She must SEEEEEEEEEE the murder, dontchaknow.

[quote]Everyone should know that once you have a murderer in your presences you start fighting right away until you do some damage. I know that from my own experience.

Thank you, JonBenet.

[quote] once you have a murderer in your presences you start fighting right away until you do some damage.

"attack a gun, run from a knife" -- Jimmy Hoffa

cody fern must have made darren criss nervous

acting wise, he blows him off the screen.

am still so nonplussed my mr criss' approach, all over the place

lacks subtlety..and nuance.

The most boring episode by far. No wonder ratings are falling weekly. While it may have been "nuanced" and "superbly acted" the pace was so glacial and scenes dragged on for so long it was hard to stay interested.

doing the thing in reverse was dumb....

too dam artsy and mixed up.

Don't agree with all these complaints. I don't mind the pace or backwards storytelling. It doesn't hinder anything at all. Also Criss and Fern were excellent and on par with each other.

I think that Fern acted Criss off the screen. The problem is that nobody really cares about either of them.

I don't agree with any of the criticisms either, loving this story as cruel as it is. Running it backwards takes you into the mind of this perverted sick man. Criss is brilliant in it.

I am moved by Darren’s performance. The hair on my arms stands up because he has made me realize a former roommate was very likely a psychopath too. I can’t believe how much his performance reminds me of this guy. (There were rumors this guy may have killed someone in his past too.)

Agree r80. I started watching for Versace. Not for a show with 80% Cunanan/20% Versace.

But I'll stick with it. Not gonna kill me...

I didn't think it would be entirely about Versace, but regardless, it's a little slow.

I guess it's kind of slow but it doesn't bother me like it does other people. I think now more than ever audiences need their entertainment to move at a speedy pace. Such low attention spans.

R76 has been in every Versace thread with a hate boner for Criss, even before the show. He/(more likely, she) is easy to point out because of the plentiful spelling and grammar errors in every post. She has suggested that Evan Peters play the role of a Filipino character. The acting in this show has been the best thing about it, hands down. Loved seeing Fern and Finn too - I'm interested to see next week's episode and how they are going to handle the supposed love triangle with Andrew, that they are selling. I never bought that angle at all, no evidence points to it.

This probably would've been better had it been like 6 or 7 episodes instead

[quote] hate boner for Criss

Pics please.

r11, Considering how many died not long after TBITB, "play[ing] a gay man" hardly mattered.

I think it was a really stupid production decision to cast Amiee Mann as the singer in the bar. It totally took me out of the scene because there was no way Aimee Mann would have been singing at a dive bar in the middle of nowhere in 1997.

It was gimmicky and unnecessary. They should have cast some semi-talented nobody. The focus of the scene should have been on the two guys, not the singer. It was such a "Glee" thing to do.

Why not also have Madonna performing The Girlie Show at the local gas station, too?

Look more closely, r14.

The problem with the show isn't that it runs backwards. It doesn't. Every episode runs forwards.

It's just that each episode starts at a place that has nothing to do with where the last episode ended.

R91 Well in the episode she looked a lot younger. Lighting or good makeup? I don't know who she is so I wasn't taken out of the scene.

R93 She's mostly famous for doing pretty much the entire soundtrack to the Paul Thomas Anderson movie Magnolia. That's where I first heard of her.

That truck stop bar should have had a show with a cast of 80, with spinning sets, seven costume changes, full orchestra, and licensed Jerome Robbins choreography.

r44 doesn't get the joke of r39.

Yes every episode runs forwards, but the plot itself is running backwards r92. Each episode takes place before the previous one, we are moving backwards in time.

[quote] I don't know who she is so I wasn't taken out of the scene.

Me neither. But I get how if you recognized her it would be distracting.

The end of this episode gutted me. Especially when he met his father in the cabin. You knew he was gonna die but deep down I was rooting for him to get away. I think it was a powerful episode. And I dont mind the time jumps at all.

[quote] I don't know who she is so I wasn't taken out of the scene.

I recognized her voice immediately. It was a sloppy touch in a show that is supposedly recreating real events.

Because it caused the viewer to think, "Wait, was Aimee Mann singing in tiny Minnesota bars in the 1990s?" And then you realize she wasn't. And you've been distracted by something that has nothing to do with the episode.

R99 She's not Adele or Beyonce so I had no clue who she is and not everyone will know her. Didn't take me out cause she was some random folk singer to me, though she was very good.

R99 Exactly.

Ryan Murphy loves the stunt casting though. Even when it distracts from the story he's trying to tell.

The problem with the time jumps was most evident in the latest episode.

Andrew kills two guys we just meet. One, only has a line or two before he is killed.

Watching a character die should be imbued with more meaning than that. The second guy he kills did have that meaning because he was killed at the end. But to only learn about the first guy he killed a week after he is killed takes away the emotional impact of seeing him die.

r98, You meant to write "met," correct? Because David was imagining it.

R100 Your ignorance served you well.

The DL is not interested in your sever case of ADD r99.

R105 ADD doesn't mean what you think it means.

The time jumps aren't a big deal. Jeez people need to get over it!

[quote] They sure made Madson look like a wuss, like he could have escaped but didn't. Maybe he was a weak personality or in shock. He could have put an elbow in his face many times.

He watched him beat his friend to a pulp with a hammer, and then kidnapped at gunpoint. Of course he would be in shock and terrified. Putting an elbow in his face might not have stop him from pulling the gun and shooting. He probably knew the minute the friend was killed he had no chance and tried to survive as long as he could.

R105 Its a severe case of a criminally short attention span!

Poor ADD r84. One victim is hammered to death virtually immediately, but hey, SLOW!

[quote]Yeah, I thought David was a body builder?

Yeah, we don't have a lot of pictures of him but everyone described him as muscular. When his body was found the person described the body as looking like a body builder.

[quote]The time jumps aren't a big deal. Jeez people need to get over it!

The time jumps are literally a "big deal", it is the pivotal creative decision in the way this story is being told.

If it works for you, cool, I think it is a hindrance. What does telling the story this way add to the narrative? I only see what it takes away.

Bette Midler's daughter played the perfect frau.

The backwards device is just a gimmick.

[quote]Bette Midler's daughter played the perfect frau.

We're gonna do a sister act --as soon as she loses a few!

Ryan Murphy is the TV version of David Fincher. He constantly casts celebrity spawn or actors from wealthy families in his shows.

I thought her line readings were kinda clunky honestly.

R113 it's not that gimmicky!

She's only 32 the poor thing but looks a good decade older.

I'm really enjoying Darren Criss in this role- he's way better than I thought.

Just glad that the killings are over-these last 2 episodes were hard to watch.

r80, Psychopaths don't have much depth. They lack introspection, remorse, regret, "looking back."

David Madson is shown as a real human being, with a credible father-son interaction, as a budding architect, to being unutterably shocked, horrified, terrified, helpless, hopeless, alone. Cunanan's all la-de-da, let's be happy together, before and after the murder. IOW, Cody Fern had a range of emotions to project, so that is perhaps---perhaps---why he might have seemed better than Darren Criss.

But it's a fine line Criss must walk to not be some whacked caricature, because the real Cunanan was clearly to a certain extent seductive. Criss does much with his piercing eyes.

Anyone that thinks Darren Criss is over-the-top or cartoonlike should realize that that means his doing an amazing portrayal. I've watched specials about this case on tv where they talked to people who knew Andrew and a majority of them described him as obnoxious and a bit much sometimes.

I think Criss is a weightless actor. He is also small and won't age well as his physical appeal is based on youth, not beauty.

If the show started with Andrew Cunanan (who the mass audience doesn't know) and shows his descent into - BOOM - killing Versace, would anyone care? Everyone knows how and where he killed Versace. So you're going to be intrigued enough to wait 8 full episodes to get to that moment? I don't get anyone who is so confused by the reverse narrative. It's really not that complex of a show. The people who are shocked that there is not a lot of Versace...it's a crime show - go watch a documentary on him if you really want that info.

R121 The one problem I have with Darren Criss in this role is that the real Andrew Cunanan may have been a fantasist who rubbed people the wrong way eventually but he was also seductive and people fell in love with him at least at the start. There is nothing seductive about Darren. He just exudes craziness from every pore to the point that nobody would want to be around him from the get go. That's not believable. He was a fucking escort for Christ's sake. His job was to seduce. Darren as Andrew hasn't done that yet. Compare this to Matt Damon in The Talented Mr. Ripley who was also an insecure gay serial killer but at least you could see how he was able to charm people.

R122 President the Darren Criss Hate Club right here!

R123 So you're admitting that the producers are doing a cynical bait and switch by calling it Versace when it's actually all about Cunanan.

[quote]I've watched specials about this case on tv where they talked to people who knew Andrew and a majority of them described him as obnoxious with hammers and a bit much sometimes with duct tape.

R124 We are seeing him when his life had already fallen apart and he has decided to go on a murderous rampage. Of course he isn't that charming. There's glimpses of it like in the first episode with Versace or when he's talking to that motel manager in the second episode. Now that the shows are going back to pre murder times I'm think we'll see a more seductive and charming man.

[quote]I don't get anyone who is so confused by the reverse narrative.

People aren't confused by it; they just don't think it is the best way to tell the story.

R125 Don't make this about your fan worship. People are allowed to disagree about performances.

I would give him mixed reviews. He is entertaining in showing how sketchy Cunanan was, but doesn't have the skills to convey the inner psychosis.

R126 I think people are mad because they were naive enough to think a show about a CRIME is about Versace's life - when in fact, the only true crime that touched his life was the one that ended it. The show is based off of a book about Andrew Cunanan. There are only a few pages about Versace, and he's just not that interesting. I saw an article where Cody Fern said that the bait and switch was intentional in order to shift focus on the victims who didn't get their due attention because the celebrity of Versace overshadowed them.

R130 umm he's not just criticizing his acting. He's attacking his appearance and being petty.

[quote]The cliche of a gay man’s relationship with his mother has been explored far more than the need so many of us felt to have our father’s approval & love.

Unfortunately I think this comes from the straight man's perspective and the need to demonize women and blame them for everything. (Who fucking knows why.) So they take for granted and overlook the importance other men (like fathers) hold in shaping their lives.

R128 Yeah, apparently screeners say that it goes back to show the "unraveling." Obviously at the end of his life, he wasn't charming - hence him murdering. Is that shocking? But to get to that point, he charmed and dazzled a lot of people. Telling the story in reverse will get us to that point of "understanding." Really, if people want to know more, read Orth's book or the one by Gary Indiana (there is lots of re-imagined conversations, but still a good read).

But you can't blame people for being mad r131. I knew this was going to be a show about Andrew Cunanan, but if you are a general audience member the marketing for this show was misleading. It was an an intentional bait-and-switch on the audience, like they have admitted.

I didn't recognize Aimee Mann at all, and I'm old enough to remember her.

I recognized the voice first. Then her (they shot her in a very flattering way).

I thought the last episode was the best so far. And neither Andrew nor Versace were the stars. To me this was David's story. The couple of scenes with his father (both real and imagined) were terrific.

Is Edgar Ramirez still hot, or has he lost it? Will he ever be a mainstream star?

[quote]I didn't recognize Aimee Mann at all, and I'm old enough to remember her.

It wasn't about recognizing her face: He voice is very distinctive.

As far as a mass audience goes, Aimee Mann is a one-hit wonder from the 80s, and you'd have to be in your 40s to remember her.

Years ago when I first read about the murders I could not help but wonder why Maddsen did not try to murder Andrew? Didn't he have any anger? He had to know Andrew was going to kill him.

[quote]I could not help but wonder why Maddsen did not try to murder Andrew?

Wha? You know not everyone is a killer at heart? I doubt he ever even considered that.

One story from the episode that is true is that David Madson freaked out as a kid when his Dad took him hunting, he didn't like seeing the animals die.

I'm sure David Madson's instinct was just staying alive, self-preservation.

You see how Andrew lies and makes stories up out of nowhere, that is just like Trump. Trump is just another sociopath who would litterally start a nuclear war if he thinks it will get him out of trouble.

I hope next episode shows Donatella/Penelope because that all I'm interested in

[quote]I think Criss is a weightless actor. He is also small and won't age well as his physical appeal is based on youth, not beauty.

Thank you for your input. You post has been forwarded to Criss's representation who will immediately drop him and ban Andrew from show business forever.

R143-But David’s lack of instinct to stay alive is what bothered me about this episode.

He had SO many chances to escape/call out for help that I found myself saying, “Run! Run now!”

When he started running at the end— right before Andrew shot him—I thought, “Well, NOW is not the time to try to escape!!!”

The whole thing made no sense.

Oh R144. You don't want to go there.

[quote]As far as a mass audience goes, Aimee Mann is a one-hit wonder from the 80s, and you'd have to be in your 40s to remember her.

The point went right over your head. It was an unnecessary gimmick to cast an actual, nationally-known singer from that era in a scene that was supposedly depicting historic events.

It was the producers star-fucking instead of casting someone right.

[quote] He had SO many chances to escape/call out for help that I found myself saying, “Run! Run now!”

Well, maybe we will get more insight into this mindset when we watch the next FX show about Patty Hearst.

[quote]I hope next episode shows Donatella/Penelope because that all I'm interested in

It's going to be about Donatella's little-known life as a waitress in San Diego hamburger place popular with gay escorts and their clients.

R147: The problem is that nobody knows what really happened, as all three people are dead and never told anyone.

For all we know, David was an accomplice.

More likely, he was just scared shitless to be with a deranged murderer with a gun.

I mean the preview did show there would be some Versace next episode so that poster will get their wish.

Cody Fern is in two more episodes I believe. I got we get a nice look at what he was like when he isn't being held hostage, the real David seemed like a pretty awesome guy. It would be nice for him to be remembered as something other than the tragic figure he was in this episode.

R153 I think Cody is in four total episodes.

Cunanan does remind me of Trump with all his lies and narcissism.

I thought Cody Fern did a wonderful job..excellent actor. I didn't know he's Australian.

I thought Cody Fern's acting was excellent. The only problem was that he brought little-boy quality to the character that didn't reflect the actual person he was depicting. The real David looked OLDER, not younger, than his actual age. He was also very beefy.

I found it harder to believe that Cody Fern's character, so sweet and innocent, was into S&M and ball gags.

R157 - agreed, I think the issue was the way some of the dialogue was written. His acting was terrific. He juggled a few boyfriends at a time and was heavy in the BDSM scene. He was submissive and I think that comes across in his portrayal pretty well. Especially in the shower scene with Andrew.

I wonder if the show will go into the BDSM side of their relationship then.

David was sweet, but he was also a "consummate salesman". Sexy with a silver-tongue who could sell ice to a snowman. And yes, he was always juggling boys, there seemed to be no end of guys who were into him. He bounced around doing many jobs while he was young and he always excelled and made an impression. He applied to both architecture school and law school and got into both.

He was his own type of hustler in a way, an ambitious soul who was determined he was going to make himself a success. That seemed to be the attraction to Andrew, Andrew was a smooth talker who dressed well, knew all the important people and had tons of money. He represented the type of guy David wanted to be. They sort of addressed this in the dining room conversation, but hopefully we see more of that.

In terms of the BDSM thing, Andrew definitely got him into it. But who knows how much David really liked it.

David's other boyfriends say David never tried to get them to do any S&M stuff. He was a bottom who liked it rough and aggressive, but that was as kinky as other boyfriends described him.

Some poster said they saw screeners and that there was going to be a ton of Darren Criss nudity in one of the upcoming episodes. They mistakenly said it would be episode 3, but we've all seen that was not true.

Is he going to be fucking Cody or Finn?

[quote]He had SO many chances to escape/call out for help that I found myself saying, “Run! Run now!”

You're thinking like a movie. Even though the show was a representation, in real life terror can cripple you. It's easy in a movie to be a hero.

Was he in the military before? Sorry but Madsen should have had the instinct that he was in serious danger and should havevstruck first. One of the first things they teach girls is to not get into a car with your attacker. Maybe his SiM games kept him from realizing that YES!! ANDREW IS GOING TO KILL YOU.! I am still calling David foolish.

[quote]Is he going to be fucking Cody or Finn?

No way we get a Finn/Darren sex scene.

According to everyone who knew them Jeff and Andrew were never more than friends. Jeff's refusal to be more than friends with Andrew is probably one of the things that got him killed.

[quote]Anyone that thinks Darren Criss is over-the-top or cartoonlike should realize that that means his doing an amazing portrayal

Criss's default acting is ott / theatrical so he happened to find his perfect character to fit it.

[quote]Was he in the military before?

David Madson was never in the military. Jeff Trail (Finn Wittrock's character) was.

[quote]I am still calling David foolish.

That's nice. As has been said many times in these threads, you have no idea how you would react if you were in his position, but keep playing keyboard warrior.

I'd assume we will get a Cunanan/Madson or Cunanan/sugar daddy sex scene.

R161 The show lives a lot in referencing scenes in one episode, then flashing back to them in following episodes. In the last episode, David and Andrew discussed their first night together at the Mandarin Hotel. Their first meeting was discussed quite a bit in Orth's book. I definitely see that being one of the sex scenes, plus at least another one during their relationship. Orth said that she felt there could have been a sexual relationship between Jeff and Andrew, but it was not confirmed, so I doubt they'll go there. He was an escort in San Diego so they will 100% show more sexual situations.

How was Cunanan able to afford a $1,000/night suite at the Mandarin Oriental in SF?

Was he using his sugar daddy's money?

Did Madson’s father talk to Ryan Murphy about his relationship with his son? Or was that scene where David came out just made up/part of the script? I don’t know if any of the victims’ families contributed any information. I doubt it considering how traumatic it was. I know Marilyn & Donatella didn’t but don’t know if any others did to set the record straight/dispel rumors.

[quote]David and Andrew discussed their first night together at the Mandarin Hotel. Their first meeting was discussed quite a bit in Orth's book. I definitely see that being one of the sex scenes

I thought Orth said that when they went back to the Mandarin they did not have sex. (I think this is from letters, otherwise, how would she know?)

Cunanan was known for throwing around lots of money r169. As they have said "generous" was one of the first words everyone used to describe him.

Where he got the money from was a big mystery to the people who knew him, he always lied about it. From what Maureen could figure out he sold drugs, sold himself, had a sugardaddy in Norman Blanchford, had credit cards that he maxed out.

Yeah I remember that as well r171. I'm pretty sure oddly enough they did not have sex that first night together.

BUMP

...but why r174?

The book said they did not have sex the night the met even though they slept in the same hotel room.

But the dialogue has both of them saying they couldn't wait to get the other in bed that night.

to bookmark this thread!

The show will probably change their first night then based on the dialogue in the last episode at the diner.

[quote]Did Madson’s father talk to Ryan Murphy about his relationship with his son? Or was that scene where David came out just made up/part of the script?

Maureen interviewed the family, those scenes were based on stuff from the book.

I know Cody mentioned he had no contact with the Madson family, they agreed at the onset they weren't going to contact the victims families.

ACS sc 2 has this major weakness when compared to sc 1: the low numbers of veteran actors in each episode. Darren Criss tries hard but comes off one-note. This is because he still lacks the skill to add mannerism details to "make realistic" the complicated psychopath character. The first 2 episodes are largely carried by Penélope Cruz, Édgar Ramírez and the lush scenes of Versace's glamorous surroundings. Ep 03 is carried by the elder actors playing the Miglin couple. Ep 04 falls flat because Darren Criss has only Cody Fern to play against, and Cody is a even weaker actor than him. As with all Ryan Murphy shows, the quality of the show is directly proportional to the number of elder actors prominently featured. That is why ASC OJ and Feud Bette Joan are both classics, and why ASC Versace is simply not.

R180 Yes cause only the elderly know how to act. Come on, Criss and Fern were wonderful in the last episode. Also, Travolta is pretty old and he wasn't that great in OJ.

I thought Travolta was one of the few weak links in OJ. The other weak links were Cuba Gooding Jr. and David Schwimmer.

R171 If I remember correctly, she said it was a "sleepover." Or something like that, in quotations. Why would two gays go back to a hotel room just to hang out?

Not everyone is a whore.

and FYI....this is not a porno.....head over to pornhub if you want sex.

r181 Please. Even with a frozen face, Travolta could act circles around Criss and especially Fern. The old guy still had the efficient body language that the young ones don't. Criss and Fern ain't even that good as young actors go. Watch Lilting (2014) if you want examples of more competent young actors giving realistic portrayals of gay men under life's pressures.

R184 Get off your high horse. You've never wanted to see an actor you were attracted to do a sex scene? Seriously?

R185 Have to disagree with you there.

This Darren Criss interview addresses that opera scene, apparently him and Edgar were also confused about whether it was supposed to be real while they were shooting it.

[quote]Even Criss and Edgar Ramirez (who plays Versace) were unsure. “As we were shooting it, I was like, Is this just in Andrew's head? We don't know! The grandeur of the show in general is almost like a machination of Andrew's brain. There's a beauty and a color and a sweeping, operatic feel to the show that feels like we're seeing it through the eyes of an unreliable narrator.”

Also he brings up the families weren't contacted

[quote] And it’s true that the show spends time telling the stories of Cunanan’s victims, and not just of their deaths. Episode Four features a flashback to Madson coming out to his father; Episode Five chronicles Trail’s experience in the Navy during the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” era. Still, their families “weren’t contacted or consulted, and if I were them I couldn’t help but feel betrayed by the idea that we didn’t want to reach out.”

And even though people associate them together, he mentions this is the first time he actually worked directly with Ryan Murphy

[quote]In what may come as a surprise to Glee and Versace fans, the latter is the first actual collaboration between Criss and producer Ryan Murphy. “I had never actually worked with Ryan before this,” Criss says. By the time he joined Glee in the second season, Murphy “had moved onto other things. One time somebody was sick and he came on for one scene, and it was the most I'd ever worked with him.” But Criss had known Murphy as a friend for many years by the time Versace came around and had watched from afar as Murphy evolved into FX’s powerhouse producer, raking in commercial success with the American Horror Story franchise and critical acclaim with The People v. O.J. Simpson. “We’ve always been very friendly, and had a lot of fun nights out together in Hollywood. But there’s a dissociation between the creative power that is Ryan and the guy I see at parties. This was the first time I really got to be creative and be a part of that process and see him build something from the start.”

And of course that ask him about emmy buzz

[quote]So 2018 is a banner year for Criss on many levels; though it’s early to start talking Emmys, it’s hard to imagine him not being a frontrunner for his revelatory performance. “We’ll see,” he says, downplaying awards buzz. “The success for me is that people are talking about it. But this is a moment for me, and I recognize that, because I've had one before. The fact that I've gotten another one from Ryan Murphy is not beyond my understanding, and I'm trying to enjoy it as much as I can. I feel like I'm very much on a precipice, so I'm excited to see who or what is in the abyss.”

R184 You're completely missing the point. If you know anything about Andrew's story, sex was one of the more central themes in his life (and the show) - for better or for worse. The show touches on how he uses gay sex and culture to exploit his victims, especially in his crime scenes, as a way to shame them. He was an escort, a hustler, and had sexual relationships with a few of his victims. If you're afraid of seeing sex on TV, it's not the show for you.

[quote]In what may come as a surprise to Glee and Versace fans, the latter is the first actual collaboration between Criss and producer Ryan Murphy. “I had never actually worked with Ryan before this,” Criss says. By the time he joined Glee in the second season, Murphy “had moved onto other things.

Murphy rarely directed on Glee. Even so, he was in at least two episodes of Glee directed by Murphy and more if we count those that Murphy wrote. So he's either forgetting or downplaying.

It's also simulated sex, which doesn't show that much cause, you know, its not real.

[quote] Even so, he was in at least two episodes of Glee directed by Murphy

That is what I went to check. And yes, there were two season 2 episodes Murphy directed that Darren Criss was in. So it is a misnomer to say he never worked with Ryan Murphy before, unless another someone else did those scenes Darren was in or somethign.

This ep could easily function as a standalone movie all to itself.

I actually preferred it to CALL ME BY YOUR NAME, tbh.

Brilliant work from everybody involved (esp. Criss).

Surprised FX is allowing as much as they are (esp with a 90-minute ep with so much dark gay content)...

But, not complaining!

[quote]She's only 32 the poor thing but looks a good decade older.

Thanks for posting, Mamie.

[quote]Yeah, we don't have a lot of pictures of him but everyone described him as muscular. When his body was found the person described the body as looking like a body builder.

I don't how old Cody Fern is (it's not in IMDB), but Madson was 33, and Fern looks like he's around 20. And certainly not a bodybuilder.

i'm loving all these comments about Bette Midler's daughter, like she wasn't on screen for a grand total of - how much? - 45 seconds? I like this ep as a standalone piece, like a feature movie. But yes, so far the series is quite disjointed, it lacks the pull of OJ. But this one is creepier, scarier and often heartbreaking. Two very different beasts.

R195, Mr. Fern is 29 - 30. "Cody Fern (born 1988) is an Australian film and stage actor."

[quote]That is what I went to check. And yes, there were two season 2 episodes Murphy directed that Darren Criss was in. So it is a misnomer to say he never worked with Ryan Murphy before, unless another someone else did those scenes Darren was in or somethign.

"Glee" was an ensemble pierce. Rarely did every actor work all days needed to finish the episode. Maybe Darren worked one day of that shoot.

Criss was also in two episodes of American Horror Story yet claims he never worked with Murphy before (forgetting Glee) yet on the other hand claims he and Murphy are good friends. How did they become friends if they "never" interacted before? He's making shit up, afraid people will think he only got the role because he fucked Murphy for it.

What do we know about Andrews home life, siblings? only child? Have the parents ever spoken out?

He looked young though r197. The character didn't seem like a 33-year old professional who was lecturing for courses at Harvard.

That last episode was too gruesome. There's a problem at the heart of this. Cunanan as played by Criss is totally, totally unsympathetic. If you're going to concentrate in a film on a serial killer as opposed to his victims (Versace barely gets a look-see), there needs to be a hook to get the audience involved and not totally repulsed by them. Anthony Hopkins made Lecter charming despite everything he did. Cunanan? He's just a butcher. No subtlety. Just gross.

The stuff I saw on here made it sound like Criss was giving a great performance. Don't agree. Totally one-note.

R202 People have different opinions. Some think he's one note(like you) and some don't. That's the beauty of viewing tv and other art forms.

r202 I agree that Criss was mediocre at best. He still seem fairly green as an actor despite not being that young. Guy just ain't paying enough attentions to details in presenting a supposedly charismatic villian.

Ratings don't lie. The plunge in viewership for the last episode shows that very few people are interested in watching the show when it centers on the likes of Criss and Fern only. It's not "Versace", but the more established actors who are the real draw of this show.

Ramirez is the most disappointing performance for me so far. I guess I expected more. And Criss is doing amazing nuanced stuff in this role despite what the two people above me think.

[quote]What do we know about Andrews home life, siblings? only child? Have the parents ever spoken out?

He was the youngest of four children. His father was in the Navy and was later a failed stockbroker. The mother had mental health issues and said the father was abusive. From what I remember from Orth's book was that it seemed the father was also a sociopath who lusted after money. The father wasn't one of those sociopaths who found success in the business world. His stock broker career was filled with firings from different firms and he was eventually caught doing illegal things. Cunanan was described as spoiled by many people including his siblings. The siblings did speak out when the media heavily followed the case. Cunanan's mother claimed that Andrew wasn't violent. However, people who knew her including a Catholic priest knew about an incident in which Andrew threw her against a wall and her shoulder was injured. Orth's book portrayed the parents as deeply flawed and in denial about many things about their son. The father claimed that Andrew didn't commit any of the murders and was set up by the mob. I think the mother made similar claims.

[quote]There's a problem at the heart of this. Cunanan as played by Criss is totally, totally unsympathetic.

So far we have only seen the last two weeks of his life where he murdered five people. It's only half done. Relax.

Perhaps Cunanan himself was totally unsympathetic. People who knew him said as much.

R207, that's a good point. A lot are heavily judging the series when it's only have over, like critiquing a movie that's only 40 minutes in.

^half over.

There were over two months between the murders of William Reece and Versace r207. Cunanan was on his murder spree without getting caught for a while.

I like that the series is told backwards, it makes for an interesting perspective. This is an adult show, not sesme street.

I think Criss is doing a great job portraying a sociopath. Anyone who has ever met a real sociopath/psychopath knows that they are completely ridiculous yet they think they are perfectly normal - yes they can even be cartoonish. They are charming and sometimes witty in the beginning, but that doesn't last long.

And as for everyone judging David for not running away, you all have obviously never been in a life threatening situation. It's not like the movies where you start karate chopping everyone, you become frozen, terrified, and Stockholm syndrome can kick in.

I was in a life threatening situation once, and the only way I survived was complimenting my abuser so that he would think I liked him, so he would calm down and leave me alone. In the episode at least, David provoked Andrew. It didn't turn out too well for him.

I knew Andrew Cunanan. I met him at a bar in San Diego. The reason he was so "charming" has not been mentioned anywhere in this series or any media. But here it is - he had a HUGE cock. I'm talking beer can size. That was his allure and his "charm".

r213 You're full of it. There are pictures out there of Cunanan's dick.

Cunanan's cock looks pretty average to me.

[quote]Cody Fern

Any relation?

At the risk of drawing a chorus of Marys! , I suspect it’s going to be like Merrily We Roll Along. It’ll get more moving as the more likable sides of the lead character are shown and the overarching tragedy of their life is revealed. But will people have checked out by then?

These backward-moving stories usually result in one very moving last scene/episode. The trick is to keep it compelling until that moment arrives. Harold Pinter's Betrayal succeeded at this. Merrily did not.

[quote]I thought Travolta was one of the few weak links in OJ

For me it is Penelope Cruz in this season

Merrily! Mary! Marvelous!

I think Criss is doing a pretty good job. Cunanan was ridiculous and fake, I'm not sure there was a lot of depth to mine out of the character.

Fern I thought acted well. I get the impression they decided to cast him differently than the real victim in order to tell the story about homophobia etc. Played him more child like, sensitive and fragile to suit the story. The pacing was dreadful this episode though. This is the only one where my attention wandered off.

For those of you not believing me that i've seen all the episodes except two, now i'm going to spoil more. So Versace tells his sister he's going to come out to the advocate and she doesn't like it. Later on she accepts it. Versace goes to do the interview and calls out Ricky Martin to sit with him and that's how the scene ends. Cunannan stalks the navy guy and breaks into his room and goes through his stuff, tries on his takes out his uniform and puts on his hat. The navy guy goes to kill himself in the Navy (flashback) but doesn't go through with it. In the present he goes to do an interview telling about being gay in the military. That is intercut with the versace interview. OK NOW ARE YOU HAPPY? YES i got stuff wrong as the timeline for the show is ALL over the freaking place and I saw the episode months ago.

r213 an Asian man? Doubtful.

Fern reminded me of Andrew McCarthy in his early days.

[quote]Criss was also in two episodes of American Horror Story yet claims he never worked with Murphy before

I don't think Ryan Murphy has been that hands-on involved with the running of AHS for a while.

I must admit I’m chuckling at all the controversy over the Aimee Mann scene. First of all I didn’t think she was playing herself in the scene. It never occurred to me. I thought it was just Aimee Mann the singer portraying some old dyke playing guitar at the local gay bar. And I thought the scenes in the bar were beautiful and worked on every level.

[quote]I don't think Ryan Murphy has been that hands-on involved with the running of AHS for a while.

Technically he isn't that involved with Versace either - apart from producing which is his general involvement with all his shows. He didn't write any of it, and I'm not aware that he directed any other episodes apart from the first one. So Criss is embroidering in that interview, for whatever reason.

I’m a little curious too as to how Criss got to be such good social friends with RM if they didn’t work together and didn’t really know each other. Supposedly Criss is not part of the gay Hollywood crowd.

I dozed off several times during the episode. The pacing was DEADLY, pun intended. Bette Midler’s daughter was particularly bad with one line reading but I forget which line it was. And she also looks way too self conscious of being on camera.

[quote] Supposedly Criss is not part of the gay Hollywood crowd.

He's an outcast?

Is Ramirez part of the gay Hollywood crowd?

R227, are you for real? from the moment Murphy hired him on Glee he was his golden boy. Murphy was gaga over him. Whether there's anything to the casting couch BIs who knows, but he was definitely teacher's pet and has made very good use of it.

And Murphy somewhat recently gave a mea culpa interview that he was too much of a pal to the Glee cast and partied with them a lot more than he should've.

R231 Point being, Criss is downplaying if not outright lying about his relationship with Murphy. And the question of course is why.

Does Brad Falchuk have any gay rumors about him? Does he have a big cock?

So what is Criss parties with Ryan Murphy? Who wouldn't if you are trying to get a head in the biz.

R233 He's currently engaged to Gwyneth. Make of that what you will.

R234 But Criss did his best Mariah in that interview and basically claimed "I don't know her."

I can't know why he's downplaying the part about how much he worked with Murphy on Glee. I'll assume it's because his acting on Glee was pretty mediocre and he wants to absolve Murphy of that responsibility. This interview is obviously an Emmy push so he has to play right by Murphy to get where he wants to be aka holding the Emmy, GG and everything in between.

[quote]Does Brad Falchuk have any gay rumors about him? Does he have a big cock?

No and yes.

R236 So essentially Criss is playing himself in this show. A social climber who will fuck anyone to get what he wants. Maybe he'll end up dead in a boat house too.

[quote]So essentially Criss is playing himself in this show. A social climber

Bingo.

More or less R238. In some of the promo interviews Murphy called Criss very ambitious and hungry, and also Mr. Charisma.

Social climber and actor are 2 different things, usually.

R241, Clearly you have never met either one.

Don't be obtuse, R241. Even Criss cops to some similarities beyond the ethnicity, in terms of wanting what you don't have and to be not only loved but adored. Both are, as Esquire puts it about Andrew, extra.

What do we know about Andrews home life, siblings? only child? Have the parents ever spoken out?

According to Orth, Cunanan had a very confused home life. Both his parents were complete messes. The mother was Itlaian-American; the father came from the Philippines and they seduced each other. But the mother was very clingy, and the father kept leaving and blaming his downfalls in life on the mother; when the father would leave, the mother would run out and have affairs with other men. This made the father furious: he insisted one of their two daughters was not his.

They barely raised their first two children, a brother and a sister at all, and weren't much interested in them. They gave a lot more attention to the two younger children, particularly Andrew, the baby. he was the best looking of the children, and both the parents leaned on him heavily for emotional support. For the mother, Andrew was a substitute for her husband, and she demanded too much emotional closeness. For the father, Andrew was his repository for his obsessions about class and appearances: he basically drilled Andrew in what were the better brands of shoes, clothes, cars, etc. Andrew was extremely precocious with a nearly genius IQ, but he was also attention demanding and narcissistic.

the family was in pretty lower middle-class circumstances in National City, a suburb of San Diego: but the family's obsession with bettering themselves led to the mother working hard to get Andrew into a very fancy private school in nearby La Jolla. Andrew dreamed of going to such a fancy school (he was obsessed with the Preppie Handbook), and he always tried to make everyone at his school think he was much richer than he really was, and he would rarely let friends see his house or his parents. By his senior year it was clear he was not going to a fancy college like the other kids, and then his father lost his job altogether and ran away back to the Philippines. Andrew did a few semesters at UCSD but then moved to the Bay Area to live with his rich friend Elizabeth Cote and her husband (whom we saw in the first episode). Then he moved back to San Diego and became a rentboy.

The parents and the two older siblings all tried to cash in after Andrew's death, trying to get book deals (only Gina, the sister closest in age to him, stayed away and would not talk to reporters). Orth said the parents were in huge denial about his deeds, and thought he had been put up to them.

Huntys, I've met plenty of social climbers and actors. They are not the same and don't have the same goals. Lick my taint.

R243, only for Andrew it was more material jealousy and wants. Criss comes from a rich family so it's more about fame, success and accolades.

[quote]They are not the same and don't have the same goals

Really? Like, fame, success, money?

R243 Yeah, well, he's never been shy about it. But that's pretty much all of Hollywood?

When he's talking about his relationship with RM, I think he only means he never directed him before. He obviously worked with him as Glee showrunner and they had a social relationship because of it, but in ACS he's actually being directed by RM? That's what I got anyway.

R207 You're probably right. I've been waiting for a hint as to WHY anybody would want him as a friend, let alone a lover, but it's true we're starting at the point where people are fed up with him. Maybe in the last couple episodes we'll see him be something other than creepy.

[quote]When he's talking about his relationship with RM, I think he only means he never directed him before.

Then he's forgotten that Murphy directed a couple of Glee episodes he was in.

Criss is a notorious rambler in interviews, Esquire must have paired down a lot of what he served into more concise quotes. So maybe something was lost in translation.

What he *may* also mean, is that he and Murphy discussed how to approach the role a lot more in detail than they ever did on Glee. I think he said at the time that he was given practically no guidance beyond the character breakdown. At one point they even de-aged Blaine and changed his personality. Here, he benefits a lot from playing a very defined character, obviously based on a real person; and also from a more focused production process.

r147, As I'm sure others have explained this but you haven't bothered to read other posts:

Cunanan did a job on Madson's head, re: "You let him in. It's your hammer. You'll be arrested, too." Then there was David's fear of his family's humiliation. Cunanan also had a loaded gun on his person at all times. Add PTSD, having seen a sudden grotesque and brutal slaying of your friend by your other friend. And more reasons.

r142, You're simply nuts.

r199, Since Darren Criss is practically Cunanan's doppelganger, I doubt he had any such fear.

This series ought not be compared to the OJ one, for one major reason: "The People vs. O. J. Simpson" focused on the lawyers. Yes, yes, there was no trial for Cunanan, but still, the current production presents a more...human story.

The title, "The Assassination of Gianni Versace," is catchy, with the sibilant words flowing well. It tells us right away that the murdered (for "Gianni Versace" represents all victims of Cunanan) will be a focus of the telling, and the use of "Assassination" to elevate the victims is subtle.

Whether or not one appreciates Darren Criss's performance here, age has nothing to do with acting talent, as can be seen in countless movies and television programs.

What is the best book to read on Cunanan?

Is it possible Criss killed his two fellow dead Glee castmates? Does he have alibis?

[quote]What is the best book to read on Cunanan?

Most everything we know about this comes from Maureen's book Vulgar Favors, that is what the show is using as their source material.

I wouldn’t exactly call Criss Andrew’s “doppelganger.” He’s got enough of a passing resemblance to him to be credible but that’s it.

Cody Fern was terrific, and he’s quite easy on the eyes. I hope he has nude scenes coming up.

Darren looks more like Andrew than anyone else looks like the character they are portraying.

I've never been a big Criss fan, and this role isn’t changing my opinion of him, or his acting abilities.

That being said, he’s physically appealing, in a natural body way.

Wish I had waited till it was over and binged it. It will probably be better that way. Maybe it is even designed for that.

Both Criss and Cunanan are half Filipino

Criss is a head turner. Cunnanan wasn’t. So the physical resemblance between them isn’t THAT close.

I still think David was foolish and I do know how I would react because I was attacked and I fought back from the very beginning. I had a head injury on the back of my head and bruises all over my body but I was not going down easy and the guy (who I knew) gave up. I am saying fight back, even if they have a gun because they are not expecting it, start fighting right away. I have no idea what kind of weak personality David had but he was weak.

Cunanan was very qttractive. Some assholes simply don't like Asians.

I would also like to know r230. I like him. I just found out he played the hot, blue haired elf in Netflix's Bright - the best thing about that movie, truly. He looks great in a suit.

r263, Did you fight back against bullets? Just asking. It has been posted more than a few times now that there was more going on than simple physical danger to David, if he "fought back" and survived: His thinking he might be considered a willing accomplice; his fear of his family's humiliation; his ruined career; his outing; etc.

Does no-one remember Patty Hearst?

[quote]Did you fight back against bullets?

Quite often.

[quote]His thinking he might be considered a willing accomplice; his fear of his family's humiliation; his ruined career; his outing; etc.

That was pretty much the point of the bathroom window scene.

Just because YOU might act a certain way doesn't mean David would have. Plus, you have never been in the same circumstance.

The actor playing David was excellent at showing the utter shock of the moment

R264/asshole, I think Asian men are very attractive and I’ve enjoyed many sexual experiences with them. I don’t think Andrew Cunannan was attractive or interesting looking at all, even at first glance. What the fuck is your problem?

You're very defensive, R270. That time of the month is it?

This last episode was amazing and worked on every level. It will stay with me for a long time. I enjoyed it so much more than the tacky Versace episodes.

I know they started with the Versace murder for ratings sake and to lock in viewers, but they series would have been much more effective if the story had been told in chronological order.

[quote] The title, "The Assassination of Gianni Versace," is catchy,

And I am the queen of Romania.

lol all these FX interns trying to make it sound like Cody Fern can act

I was really impressed with Cody Fern, actually. Not an FX intern btw.

I need to see Donatella/Pe descend the Versace villa steps sideways again.

r273, I explained why: The alliteration of the sibilant sounds.

I suppose, Dorothy, you didn't care for the title "The Persecution and Assassination of Jean-Paul Marat as Performed by the Inmates of the Asylum of Charenton Under the Direction of the Marquis de Sade," either?

Al, face it - you're a thread-killer.

Okay, r278. How's this? I love this series! I just got from Amazon the book "Three Month Fever," by Gary Indiana (try not to sing it!). I figure if some don't like the fictional dialogue, they can blame Truman Capote for the genre!

And even if Criss isn't quite the doppelganger I suggested he is, so be it. Elizabeth Taylor didn't look like Cleopatra!

“David Madson Should’ve Fought Back” is the new “Cuba Gooding Jr Looks Nothing Like OJ Simpson”

Never stop posting the same message over and over and over and over and over again, Datalounge!

Madison apparently was a submissive and a bottom but Orth said he, for some reason, refused to let Andrew fuck him in the ass. Ever.

So maybe the poster claiming AC was beer can thick was right. It's impossible to tell much from the one extant picture of him flaccid. It's not even showing all of it.

The guest stars on the previous episode look very Corbin Fisher-esque

R193 The fuck?? This show has nothing to do with that movie and I still hear it?? Jesus, it's exhausting!

I have a hard time believing Madson wasn't complicit in the killing of Trail. Both Cunanan and Madson stayed in the apartment for two days and according to Orth's research were both seen walking Mason's dog. Both of their bloody shoe prints were found on the floor.

Apparently they were both into S&M and connected on that level. I don't think you can restrain a person for days with just a gun. Cunanan had to sleep at a certain point.

Thank you Monsieur Poirot.

r284, perhaps you should do actual research, like Google and search Youtube, dumbfuck. Family and friends all said he didn't want to pick up Andrew but thought he needed a friend. He was definitely being held against his will and then was probably going through Stockholm Syndrome. Everyone said he had a history of trying to "save" damaged people.

[quote]but Orth said he, for some reason, refused to let Andrew fuck him in the ass. Ever.

Huh? I don't think this true. I've read the book twice and I don't recall this at all. Where did you get this?

[quote]I've read the book twice

The DL is sorry for your loss r287.

If Madson had taken the simple action to yell for help while walking the dog with C much suffering would have been avoided

he must have been in a terrible state of terror or confusion to not break away.

R289, maybe he was dickmatized.

Madson couldn't help himself with Cunnanan- he wanted that huge cock. Hopefully they didn't fuck with a dead body in the apartment.

R287 it's in Orth's book. It wasn't really explained why, just that he wouldn't let AC do it and it was a sore issue.

I have no idea where my copy of Vulgar Favors is but I'll try to find it.

[quote]but Orth said he, for some reason, refused to let Andrew fuck him in the ass. Ever.

How would she even know that?

They could have fucked before they both died and she would never know.

In the Vanity Fair piece Orth clearly said Madson and Cunanan both liked S&M stuff and Cunanan's sexual tastes were so extreme he couldn't find lovers.

Madson was a body builder, Cunanan didn't work out. The whole Stockholm Syndrome makes no sense bc Madson must have witnessed Trail's murder.

You don't go dog walking with the brutal murderer of your friend unless you are in some way complicit.

[quote]You don't go dog walking with the brutal murderer of your friend unless you are in some way complicit.

So many behavioral science experts gracing us with their presence!

R293 She was quoting what David told his friends while they were dating.

I'm pretty that person is mixing up that people said Andrew refused to bottom, not David.

^^^ Should we believe you because you’re pretty?

[quote]You don't go dog walking with the brutal murderer of your friend unless you are in some way complicit.

You do if they have a gun and tell you: "You're coming with me because I can't trust you to be left alone. Stop crying. And smile. And don't say a fucking word other than "hello" back to anyone because I will have the gun in my pocket. And you now know I won't be afraid to kill you."

"One false move and I'll kill your dog, too"

“I’ll get you, my pretty—and your little dog, too!’

R297 I'll try to find the book since no one believes me.

But I don't see why it's so far fetched to believe someone would be selective about who fucks them up the ass.

There is also the theory that Madson wasn’t there in the apartment when AC killed Jeff. According to that article in the local Minneapolis paper. They have Madson there in the movie but who knows what’s true

[quote]But I don't see why it's so far fetched to believe someone would be selective about who fucks them up the ass.

New here?

Love the Babe Paley poster. Now all we need is a Gloria Guinness to chime in.

The whole thing that Madson was threatened by Cunanan after he brutally killed Trail makes no sense. They were two days in the apartment and then a couple of days more together in the car.

R290, what does that mean?

[quote] R294: You don't go dog walking with the brutal murderer of your friend unless you are in some way complicit.

Right! Dog walking isn’t like a simple bank robbery or similar.

Hearst was captured by more than one abductor.

Hearst robbed a bank while holding her own automatic weapon. Right?

If AC was constantly badgering Madson with claims of "you run, and ill tell them you were in on it", and "What will your family think" along with "They will never believe you", and then add in the shock from what he witnessed......yeah, his behavior is understandable.

Look at Elizabeth Smart and the opportunities she had over the years.

Hearst was a hostage for more than a year, you don't develop a Stockholm Syndrome in just a few says and esp not when you just witnessed your kidnapper smash somebody's face in a fit of rage.

[quote]Madson was a body builder, Cunanan didn't work out. The whole Stockholm Syndrome makes no sense bc Madson must have witnessed Trail's murder.

There is no proof that Madson was there when Trail was murdered. He may have walked in later.

Cunanan had a gun on him and had just murdered someone with a hammer's claw end. Madson was unarmed. What, do you think he was going to crush Cunanan's gun with his grip?

Elizabeth was dickmatized.

r313.....but you sure as hell will go into shock depending on your emotional state.

In the Indiana book, he imagines David being tied up by Andrew at first, causing him to be submissive. (It also accounts for how Andrew could have slept.)

Maybe Madson wasn’t there

We don't know if David was there or not, neither does the author of that article. You would know if you read it.

Cunanan didn't have a gun on him, he stole Trail's gun and used it to shoot Madson. Fact is that they both were in the apartment for two days after Trail was killed and that “neighbors saw the two men walking Madson’s dog the day after Trail’s murder.”

Yes, Andrew took Jeff's gun before he murdered Jeff. There is no indication Andrew went to Jeff's apartment after he killed him. I'm not sure what you are trying to say r320.

[quote]Yes, Andrew took Jeff's gun before he murdered Jeff.

That's pure speculation nobody knows when Cunanan got the gun.

Probably when he was spending time at Jeff's apartment that trip r322, before Jeff when to David's and got murdered Andrew had spent a good amount of time there.

Its a bit odd to kill someone with a hammer when you have a gun.

It isn't really odd. Many killers don't use guns.

Andrew had Jeff Trail's gun with Lee Miglin, but he chose to kill him without using it.

It’s sounds like it was a spur of the moment thing done by a crazy person in the heat of an argument.

Guns make too much noise, definitely attract attention in David's apartment/Miglin mansion.

Cunanan supposedly was a child prodigy with a 147 IQ. When he didn’t fulfill his potential he lost his mind.

[quote] In the Indiana book, he imagines David being tied up by Andrew at first, causing him to be submissive. (It also accounts for how Andrew could have slept.)

I don't think you can trust Indiana for any facts.

Guns are very easy to trace.

If someone steals your gun you should call the police right away.

[quote]Police said the condition of Trail's body and the amount of blood spattered in the apartment indicate an attack of explosive rage. They would later find a possible trigger for that kind of rage: five vials of injectable testosterone inside Cunanan's gym bag.

That explains the rage. I remember taking testosterone. I made me very aggressive. If fact, it scared me so I stopped taking it.

Cunanan was probably up to the gill on meth or roids. David Madson never stood a chance.

R332, is that David Madson?

Orth said Andrew was a closet meth user and he sold drugs too. I think killing wit a knife or a hammer or whatever is more personal than firing a gun. When Andrew was partying with the rich and pretty in San Diego, or there abouts, hanging around someone named Vance, at some point some rich person in their circle who Andrew was close to was allegedly killed when some homeless guy he picked up killed him with an art object in his house. He bashed his head in or something. Later people started to attach that early killing to Andrew but the cops said not connected to him, the homeless guy confessed.

[quote]hanging around someone named Vance

Gasp! Not our VIVIAN!

Not sure I want to watch it tonight following today’s school shooting.

Mary r336!

Do you know how many school shootings have happened recently in America?

r336......you poor delicate little flower.

At least no one is murdered in tonight's episode.....I think.

There are no more murders, but they could always revisit some of the ones we've already seen.

R337, go die in a grease fire. There might be 15 fatalities today. Among the highest in school shooting incidents.

It’s 17, but are these really “news” anymore?

27 people were just killed in that Texas Church a couple months ago.

Do you even remember the name of the person who did it? Mass shootings are so commonplace in America now it is hard for me to get worked up about it. This is the life we have chosen for ourselves.

[quote]This is the life we have chosen for ourselves.

Darwin Awards should be given to countries.

This headline will never get old

[quote]‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

Florida is an open carry state.

Big surprise.

No shirtless pics of the so called "body builder," David Madson?

No pictures of David presenting either!

Hey -- I only killed five people and I got a fucking TV series about me!

The difference a couple decades make r347.

Before we lived in an era where everyone fulfilled their narcissistic desires with countless instagram selfies.

Hmm, I'm not so sure Jeff made the decision...

Im so glad I never had any 'friends' like Andrew. He's so phony and exhausting.

I've known Andrew personality types, always stay away from the pathological liar types.

Trail was a fucking asshole.

He seems okay to me.

I adore Finn Wittrock. He's beautiful and so talented.

r354 how was he a fucking asshole?

Finn is doing an outstanding job.

The real Jeff Trail being interviewed about being gay in the military.

I thought Criss was doing well in the first few episodes. But when they pair him with Fern & Finn, you start to see the "performance".

I've missed seeing Finn. His role as Dandy on American Horror Story was one of my favorite tv characters ever. Such a good performance.

Is Antonio Italian, too?

Yes! Dandy was so crazy! And plenty of naked Finn.

[quote]Is Antonio Italian, too?

Of course.

No, I think Criss is doing fine. He's playing Andrew as a real loser. That opening scene of the two guys talking at the airport about Andrew really says it all. He's an outsider....lonely ...for a reason. Easy to feel sorry for a guy like that but stay the fuck away. Everyone must know someone like that. Misses all the social cues. The guy or woman at the office who is sort of obnoxious or people run the other way from.

As you may have heard, I've just been named Program Director of Netflix. So Finn's future is bright!

Was Donatella as much of a cunt as they are portraying her?

[quote]But when they pair him with Fern & Finn, you start to see the "performance".

I agree and I thought the same thing when he was paired with Max Greenfield in ep 2 as well.

Finn must be wearing lifts.

The guy in the leather vest is cute.

I think nobody can compare to Eric Roberts in Star 80. He really captured that isolated, socially awkward loser with simmering rage who will never fit in.

I always liked Eric Roberts but he seemed so hammy. Did you ever see The Pope of Greenwich Village? Great movie!

Why is there a hiatus next week?

The next episode in two weeks?! Do we really need to take break for a 9 episode miniseries.

Because it’s ladies figure skating at the Olympics?

I liked this episode I gotta point out this:

We see Andrew watch Jeff's interview where he talks about saving the person. Then we see him save that person. Then we see him give the interview about saving that person. We basically just watched the same thing three times.

And that isn't the only example. Last episode: Andrew asked me to marry him, this episode, scene of Andrew asking him to marry him.

Not the most judicious use of story-time.

Interesting article about Trail and Cunanan from San Diego paper when Cunanan was still on the run -- before he killed Versace. Many of his friends were still sticking by Cunanan. When Trail's friend asked the community for pictures of Cunanan to distribute to help in his arrest, this is what he said was the response:

[quote] I couldn't get one person in this community to give me a picture. They thought of [Cunanan] as this rich guy who gave away thousand-dollar coats and gave away shoes and gave away money and paid for dinners and tipped well and should be considered innocent until proven guilty. Some said they'd actually take him in right now if he needed shelter.

Did Trail's sister actually know he was gay? Or, what was that made up for the show?

Bette's daughter made a wonderful fag hag. Mama must be proud. And why do we have to wait 2 weeks for a new episode?????

Jeff Trail had three sisters rr377, I'm pretty sure they all knew he was gay. At least two of them did.

Trail wasn't as portrayed here. He wasn't on a float leading the Pride Parade but he wasn't this conflicted. He was realistic about some of the issues, with family and society, about being out but he wasnt so personally conflicted or ashamed.

Jeff Trail felt more true to life than the shows depiction of David Madson r380 IMO.

R378 Bette showed her cunt colors when she said she was against gay marriage. Ryan Murphy should have never allow that spawn Sophie to have a part in this show.

These episodes are starting to drag more and more plus there seem to be alot of commercials. I'm going to start DVR'ing and use the fast forward button.

As good as some (but not all) of the actors are, this series started out as “The Assassination of Gianni Versace,” and now it’s more “When Gay Guys Wore Mom Jeans.”

I'm curious how it will flow if I watch the episodes in reverse order, maybe except the last one.

Darren is giving a master class in acting, I know guys that are just like AC (minus the serial killer part) and he is spot on.

R381 the Jeff character is more fleshed out than the Madson character so he is more true to life. He's just not true to Jeff Trail's life.

Wow this episode just highlighted how weak of an actor DC really is. Wittrock was amazing tonight. He's starting to look old though.

Darren Criss was really good tonight. Wittrock as well.

I think the postcard thing is imaginary, too. Their actual falling out happened when Andrew asked Jeff to help him in his drug operation and Trail said Fuck No.

God, Trail's fatal mistake was not just reporting the gun stolen to the police instead of confronting Andrew. But it wasn't in his nature to do that to a friend, even a former friend. Madson, however, was as good as dead as soon as he let that viper in his loft.

Looks like we get another one of Andrew's fantasy meetings with Versace in the next episode.

This week's episode wasgood, Finn was excellent. I'm guessing his niece wasn't really born when he was being murdered? That has to be made for tv.

cunanan was such a nutjob asswipe.

shame he wasnt imprisoned or offed fore he could go on his psycho killin spree.

watchin it now

Its going off the rails tonite.

If he was that obnoxious no one would have put up with his ass.

I hate him. What a monster.

Finn Wittrock is so damn goood.

oscar !!!

(hottest guy in the show for my money)

I wonder how it would have been if he had played Cunanan.

The man is a compelling actor, Criss to me is...ok

Much as I like Darren Criss, I have to agree he's just not that good overall. He has some really good moments, like that last confrontation with Jeff, and whenever he's being murderous. The first two episodes were his best work IMO, but after that it's been on and off.

And Finn Wittrock is just amazing, even if I still can't completely shake off Dandy Mott. Incredibly talented and beautiful.

The show is really succeeding at making me feel for Andrew's victims. Hard.

I was pleased that at least this time we got to see Andrew be the kind of person you'd maybe wanna hang out with (before you knew any better), we got to see him be a friend and shit. Charm the AmEx lady.

i think it was a mistake to do the "told in reverse thing."

too gimicky,

i mean, such a complex story doesnt need this added level of confusion. .. who made this dumb choice?

R397 I don't mind it that much. It's kinda interesting.

love see finn deep in cody fern....

I think people are losing interest. There were not that many posts about tonight's episode.

[quote]I'm guessing his niece wasn't really born when he was being murdered? That has to be made for tv.

The baby was born the day before.

its a far cry from the excellence of the previous american crime story (oj) thats for sure.

the clownishness of criss' performance is ruining it all.......plus the afore mentioned told in reverse bit..

rather cloying..

interesting to compare Versace with the Alienist.

versace i can watch only once, but the alienist, due to its high production values, i can view over and over.

[quote]Bette showed her cunt colors when she said she was against gay marriage. Ryan Murphy should have never allow that spawn Sophie to have a part in this show.

That's not what she said, she said she didn't think gays would want to get married because they just want to fuck every thing that moves. Which is very presumptuous of her because she has never met a gay boy in her life. Right?

Maybe Criss's acting seems to some like a "performance" because it's supposed to, as that is what Cunanan's life WAS: A mimicking of human behavior, an example of which we were shown in Episode One to prepare us.

We see Andrew's face obviously change expression, as he works to control his innate rage. It may be a bad acting choice, but it is not bad acting.

Cunanan probably decided that's what people want: superficiality. Fashion; acting ("working on movie sets in Mexico"); flashy watches; flattery; fake emotions. Pretty little lies.

Murphy's "reverse order" decision was risky. Maybe he figured that everyone asks "Why?!" after a shocking murder, so he would give us his "answer" afterwards.

The larger story is, of course, about the closet: those in it; those who want to lock the door; those who deny its existence; and those who decided to leave it.

As someone posted earlier: Cunanan is the killer, but homophobia is the villain.

They kept saying nudity after each commercial, but I didn't see any. Did I miss it?

R406 Yeah. Was Darren Criss in his undies considered nudity? I didnt see what the nudity warning was for.

Too bad Criss is flabby.

He is definitely not flabby!

One thing that is true to life. Jeff Trail did visit cruising spots in San Diego and some guys only knew him as the guy with the disney tattoo on his leg. Maureen was able to dig up references to that.

i think telling it in reverse order is Murphy's way of answering the "How could this happen?" with the obvious answer being Homophobia.

In the previews for next week it looks like a SNL guy is in it, also Michael Nouri

Yeah I assume the "nudity" must have been Darren Criss in undies, I was wondering about that warning as well.

Finn was great. Jeff also went to the cops after the military but found it too homophobic as well. He so wanted protect and serve but no one wanted gays.

Well I think Criss is doing a damned good job. His AC makes my skin crawl. Now that we've become more familiar with Andrew we start recognizing this aura of menace about him.

The scenes last night when he and Larry have their final argument, after Larry comes home to find AC going through all his stuff? Damn. That was chilling to me. Because AC never got really angry or exploded. He tried to argue with Larry, but all the heat and anger was Larry's. And the AC just walks out. I mean we knew he was angry and yet there was no comparable explosion. I believe no one ever really saw Andrew explode in anger. He didn't know how to express it. He just went into an uncontrollable rage and killed you. That rage was always there simmering, but never expressed until the actual act of murder.

I'm glad it reminded people that Clinton is responsible for Don't Ask/Don't Tell.

Fuck off r415. You obviously know nothing about history, or you would know that Dont Ask/Dont Tell was a compromise because the GOP wanted an outright ban on gays in the military. As you might not realize, Clinton wasnt the enemy....the GOP was...and is....and as soon as Clinton left office there were bans against gay marriage in almost half the states put there by the republicans. The GOP hates gays and want us marginalized if not eradicated.....just look at the things they are doing today.

Buttery males r416.

I still can’t get past Cruz’ thick Castilian accent. It’s totally wrong.

Thats cute you think facts matter to him r416, just trying to stir shit.

I'm enjoying this series, although I wish they had started with the Versace murder, and then gone back to the beginning of the story.

I'm getting snippets of the Cunnanan charm, but not enough. The descent into craziness would be more effective told the other way.

Bill Clinton, during his 1992 campaign, Promised to sign an executive order allowing gays in the military. Once elected, He lacked the political courage to follow through on his promise. And instead agrede to a milquetoast compromise That did way more harm than good.

R334 IT would surprise me not at all if Cunanan killed Lincoln Aston, and the confession from. Kevin Bond was coerced. Would be surprised if it happens that way on the show.

Fuck off Trump troll at r421.

Greg Nelson (Davids Ex) left a review on the Vulgar Favors Amazon claiming David wasn't a very good guy.

DC's loose ass hanging below his panties was just sad. Maybe he is straight.

Lol r424.

Greg Nelson is a psychotic stalker who made David Madson's life a living hell and got arrested because he wouldn't leave him alone.

This was all talked about in the previous thread.

But he didn't kill all those people we wouldn't get this entertaining program R392

I don't know everyone is so obsessed with Finn, the other two guys are much cuter

This episode tore me up. Jeff's life, like those of so many gays of the period, was subjected to much suffering In the form of tolerated - and often sanctioned - discrimination and violence.

And then he meets Cunanan.

David's hookup was cute. As was the dancer in the club with the dollars in his speedo.

When I rewatch this series, I'm going to do it in reverse. I, too, think it would be more effective to see Cunanan's decent into crazy. I could see the charm in tonight's episode with the credit card lady over the phone and with Jeff in the bar.

I like Ricky Martin, but he looks older than Versace. How much younger than versace was the real Antonio?

Was the Advocate spread what got Andrew obsessed with Versace? Or had he been before that?

Andrew met Versace in 1990 r430, the Advocate interview was in 1995.

The real Antonio D'amico was 13 years younger than Versace. But yes Ricky Martin is older than Edgar Ramirez.

[quote]David's hookup was cute

He was but I'm surprised the show didn't have him be black. David was very into black guys at that point in his life.

R426 yeah he mentioned that wasn't really true. Idk to be honest even in the book David kind of sounds like a sleazy guy. I think he was Gregs first bf, and he burned him. I don't have much sympathy for David, he was a player and probably cheated on all his boyfriends.

R431 yeah I agree, to be authentic it should have been a black guy

[quote]yeah he mentioned that wasn't really true

Are you for real? Well if Greg said he wasn't crazy! You can go look at the court documents and Greg Nelson's arrest records, or talk to anyone who knew them.

I don't understand anyone who thinks Criss is not doing a good job. I read the book and I have know many "Andrews" in my life and Darren is perfect.

Thanks r431. I forgot about the 1990 meeting from the first episode.

R434 Anyone who knew them? You mean Davids fag hags? Look I'm not saying Greg wasn't unstable, I'm just saying David probably brought it upon himself. Also sending naked photos of David to his work place and spreading AIDs rumors was pretty funny. David was a player who finally fucked with the wrong guy (Andrew). Karma.

[quote]Also sending naked photos of David to his work place and spreading AIDs rumors was pretty funny

No it is psychotic, could you imagine that happening to you?

[quote]David was a player

Yes David was certainly a player, he was known for juggling boys. If that is the worst thing you can say about the guy sounds like a great dude.

Ramirez was great in the opening scene.

R438 No, he doesn't seem like a great dude. He was just as materialistic and manipulative and Andrew. The reason he was even friends with Andrew is becouse he would constantly buy him expensive gifts. If he wasn't so greedy he would probably still be alive. They are portraying him so much better in this show than he was in real life. He was an asshole. I don't have sympathy for people who get what was coming to them.

[quote] I don't have sympathy for people who get what was coming to them.

You sound....insane. No one deserves what happened to David.

"He liked money and nice things, I'm so glad he was tortured and murdered!!"

Yes, I've complained about the show's depiction of David in this very thread multiple times. You are preaching to the choir in some things, how you go from that to he deserves what Greg Nelson and Andrew Cunanan did to him is beyond me and a little scary.

[quote]He was just as materialistic and manipulative and Andrew.

Yeah! Except for all that murdering people thing.

R442 Well yeah, but it's a good lesson for users, be carful who you fuck with becouse you may not be able to talk your way out of it. I feel bad for Jeff, I feel like David should have been the one bludgoned with that claw hammer, not Jeff. David got off easy.

I felt bad for Andrew. If Jeff hadn't been so mean to him maybe things would have been different?

You seem to really empathize and like excusing the actions of these psychos like Greg and Andrew man.

I'm glad I don't know you in real life, the wrong person might be "mean to you" and god knows....

R445 Well, idk, maybe just be nice to people and you wouldn't have to worry about anything? Abisive people reap what they sow.

R445 And you can never be sure, maybe you do know me?

[quote]I feel like David should have been the one bludgoned with that claw hammer, not Jeff.

So, to sum up:

1) You feel that one of them deserved to be murdered;

2) You feel that you should have been allowed to choose which one.

Are you possibly the dead, decaying corpse of Andrew Cunanan?

R448 If I was Andrew I would have killed Davids little fag hag cunt who was all over every interview special talking about "what a great guy he was". Disgusting.

Thanks for the warning r449!

Bette's daughter is an ugly, talentless hack. She makes Meryl's daughter seem like a movie star.

Finn Wittrock interview

[quote]FINN WITTROCK: Well it was sorta kinda a story that kept opening up for me, I would say. At first I was intrigued by the way Ryan was telling the story and the way Tom Rob Smith structured the narrative. I didn’t know much about Cunanan and his downward spiral. But then I just really became enamored with Jeff and the kind of guy he was and what kind of upstanding American and true Patriot he was. He loved his country and loved being in the military and just had this secret — he knew who he was and was trying to make himself at peace with that and find some self but also it wasn’t compatible with the life he was living at that time. I was just really, really intrigued by that dichotomy of a guy who’s just really all-American, does everything right but the fact that he was gay he couldn’t ever really overcome that because he was stuck living two lives. And how amazing and sad that it was not that long ago? It’s not like we were talking about the ‘50s — it was like 1996. The final relevant thing for me was it was right around when Trump did the transgender people in the military ban. When I was reading it at first, I was like, “Well this is a good story but it’s a little dated.” Then, that happened I was like, “F—! This is not dated at all. It’s more relevant than ever.”

I hadn't connected that the trans ban thing happened right when they were starting production.

And he based his performance on that interview with Jeff, he is lucky that he gets actual footage of the guy.

Gotta say I actually like how the series go backwards and forwards and giving backstory to other characters (e.g. Jeff Trail’s stint in the Navy) and brought back my own struggle with having to stay in the closet when I served in the U.S.Army in the ‘90’s during the Don’t Ask Don’t Tell period. I was quite lonely and got out of the service when my four years was up.

I see Greg Nelson found this thread.

Paul Wontorek can't stop wacking off to Darren Criss.

If he's an Emmy voter, I'm sure Criss can oblige.

We will see who Darren's competition will be, but right now I am not seeing a performance that demands an emmy.

It is a career best for him, sure, but it isn't blowing me away.

Eh, who cares about demands.

Yes, they were nominated, but they did not win r457.

Please forgive me if this has already been covered, but is Darren Criss gay in real life? This is the first thing I've ever seen him in - I never watched Glee - and I know nothing about him, gossip-wise.

He is engaged to a girl r459.

Whether he has slept with men, well, I would say for sure. But depends on what you want to believe.

this is one of the saddest series i've seen in my life. And i mean that as a compliment. Mad Men is I Love Lucy compared to this.

Happens to the best of us, R458

For those of you saying Criss sucks in this, you obviously don't know the "type" he's playing. Like others have said, I've also known guys like this (minus the psycho killer part) and they're very fake, grandiose, and always "on." They are also totally exhausting and after a while you can't wait to GTF away from them. Criss is really nailing this particular personality type.

Is there any video footage of the real Cunanan out there? If there is, I've never seen any.

well, the NY Times is starting to hate the show. They stated their boundaries!

From the NYTimes article:

[quote]I increasingly find Andrew Cunanan, as portrayed by Darren Criss, to be more an irritation than an enigma. His self-absorption, narcissism, casual cruelty, lack of empathy and penchant for self-pity have not been leavened by any redeeming qualities.

Um, because that is EXACTLY what Cunanan was like. He didn't have any redeeming qualities because he was a fucking SOCIOPATH.

JFC.

Can't disagree, the way this show is crafted is frustrating.

[quote]Yet frustratingly, five episodes in and with four more go to, we are barely any closer to knowing what turned Andrew Cunanan into a pathologically mendacious psychopath, much less a killer.There is still time to explore that question, but by structuring this narrative in reverse chronological form, the show’s creators have demanded a great deal of patience from viewers — and taxed the patience of this one — as they’ve asked us to bear witness to ruthless, grisly violence. So far, I don’t feel my patience has been rewarded. I’ve given this season credit for some unforgettable characters — especially Marilyn Miglin, the tycoon’s widow, and David Madson, the semi-closeted architect (thanks in large part to exceptional performances by Judith Light and Cody Fern). But I increasingly find Andrew Cunanan, as portrayed by Darren Criss, to be more an irritation than an enigma. His self-absorption, narcissism, casual cruelty, lack of empathy and penchant for self-pity have not been leavened by any redeeming qualities.To be frank, I have come to find him so charmless that I nearly cringe any time he appears onscreen. I do not care for his petty lies — the Walter Mitty world in which he is the scion of a pineapple magnate, the builder of sets for the movie “Titanic,” the owner of a fabulous condominium in San Francisco — and, what’s worse, I’m starting to lose interest in how he turned into a killer

People are watching this show? I forgot all about it.

Is it legitimately good, or a Ryan Murphy product with all the typical pitfalls of a messy script, stunt casting with variable self-indulgent performances, and a great start that falls apart midway through the season? I’m guessing its visuals and performances are superior to its storytelling as per the formula?

[quote]Um, because that is EXACTLY what Cunanan was like. He didn't have any redeeming qualities because he was a fucking SOCIOPATH.

False. Cunanan had many redeeming qualities, that is why he was able to attract so many friends into his orbit.

Even this episode tried to show that. Jeff was initially very charmed by Andrew, it was only given time that he was able to see beneath Andrew's veneer and grew to dislike him.

R469 Sociopaths often have strong magnetic personalities with few to no redeeming qualities once people get to know them.

I should've said that sociopaths can fake normal human emotions, but they don't really feel them. We've seen Criss do that several times.

Right, but the show has been pretty unrelentless in showing him as this monster who even the audience can't stand be around.

Andrew wasn't some anti-social lone wolf. He was a popular figure with lots of friends in several cities. Was an anchor of the San Diego gay scene for a while, had a sugardaddy for a while doted on him and liked showing him off to other Gamma Mu people.

Yes it all went to hell, but he was this human being who people cared about.

At his “best” why should we care about him? He was a delusional, narcissistic opportunist

[quote]For those of you saying Criss sucks in this, you obviously don't know the "type" he's playing. Like others have said, I've also known guys like this (minus the psycho killer part) and they're very fake, grandiose, and always "on." They are also totally exhausting and after a while you can't wait to GTF away from them. Criss is really nailing this particular personality type.

He's nailing it because this aspect of the role isn't any stretch for him minus the psycho killer part. He's extrovert and schmoozer, and if he's out to charm you he most probably will.

Maybe he's mellowed some, but in Glee heyday he was rather extra. Always on and always out to woo the necessary people, and attention whore.

Murphy’s shows don’t usually excel at character development and emotional or psychological depth or nuance. He writes very shallow character profiles.

R 474 I met him once. He was really nice and down to earth. I think he's just easy going and very charismatic "artist" type.

Good actors can manage to add in depth and layers to their performance, they don't need it spelled out on the page. That is the whole idea of actors elevating the writing.

That is why I am not *that* impressed with Darren, he is doing everything well, but unfortunately it is still a check-the-boxes performance. That is why that NYTimes critic and other critics get sick of after so many episodes of the same notes. Cunanan is our lead character and the performance needs the be a little deeper to really tie the whole thing together.

I thought this critic explained it well

[quote]Onscreen, the most cumbersome entry is Darren Criss’ take on Cunanan. Wide-eyed and speaking with the high-pitched voice of a liar, Criss is asked to carry the series, but he only has so many weapons in his arsenal. His stare dulls and his voice grates. Rather than develop over time, it’s as if Criss figured out who Cunanan was from the get-go and stuck with it. There’s little difference between the high school outcast in Episode 7 and the gun-toting murderer from the premiere.

It doesn't matter how good you play that note, when it is the same note the audience will get bored as this person says.

[quote]After a while, as powerful as Criss’ performance is, even the Cunanan scenes start to feel like overkill: repetitive and methodical, to the point of becoming dull.

R477 Good actors certainly can make characters far more nuanced than they are written on the page, but they can’t make up for shitty writing by doing that. God knows Jessica Lange created interesting performance art with her many American Horror Story characters, but I still stopped watching because there was no story in the horror story after a while. Coven’s plotlines fell apart midway through and I hung on mostly for Lange. She didn’t disappoint: her rage over knotty pine made me laugh. After that season, AHS gave up on coherentstory altogether and just left it up to Jessica and her fellow actors to make the show worth watching, which they couldn’t do with performances alone. Great characters are a combination of great writing and great acting; if they came only from actors’ abilities, then improv would replace writers and save studios a lot of money.

I didn't say he wasn't nice, R476. He isn't a put upon diva. He also has a true passion for music and the arts. But the true laid back types don't jump into the cameras, rendering Lea Michele speechless.

He likes and feeds on attention, and before anyone says that's all actors, it's not. I know actors who are introverts and hate to be out and about and having to schmooze. That's not a dig at him. Just that Cunanan as a type isn't far removed. Criss himself said as much in interviews.

"What historical outcome would you change?

My first relationship and his subsequent involvement with serial killer Andrew Cunanan."

[quote]Sociopaths often have strong magnetic personalities with few to no redeeming qualities once people get to know them.

But their superficial qualities often draw people in, as it appears was the case with Cunanan. The show had an opportunity to showcase Andrew's supposedly magnetic personality during the scene where he met Jeffrey Trail in the bar. Unfortunately, neither the writing nor Criss' performance delivered. If pressed, I'd say the writing was more at fault.

There’s a reason almost every celebrated, award-winning actor says that they are selective about scripts, and that choosing the right scripts is the secret to their careers. No matter how great the actor, poor writing makes for poor entertainment.

[R479] I just think there's a big difference between "attention whore" and charismatic extrovert. Kim K vs Criss

True r482, and I agree that the writing for this series flounders in some areas. I've not hidden by dislike for telling the narrative in reverse and how that hinders the series. But because it is told this way, it puts harsh demands on the actor to really imbue a lot background into Cunanan before it is on the the screen. Not many actors could handle that, and I don't think Darren is one.

R463 I agree 100%. I have know this "type", they are exhausting after a while but usually make for fun stories. Andrew was also very generous and bought people expensive gifts, always paid for dinner etc. that's another reason he had friends. I always seem to attract "Andrew" types for some reason so I have known many.

Unrelentless r472???

I don't think so R483. Not all attention whores are charisma-free or crude.

[R487] I think we have different definitions (and that's ok). I don't know likable attention whore.

I also knew a guy like Andrew in the 90s and what I realized was he didn't want to work. He didn't want to study or get an education, he didn't want to work somewhere and build up his experience, expertise and career. He wanted the rewards but didn't want to get up every morning and do the work. When his sugar daddies dropped him he moved back in with his mother and she eventually kicked him out when he burnt through $100k of her savings in one year. Last I heard he was in Italy, this was back in 2000.

What was Cunanan shooting into his toe? Heroine? Meth? I don't take hard drugs so.....

R490 he was doing steroids at the time, do people shoot steroids like that?

Do you think his portrayal of Versace will make Edgar Ramirez a star?

R492 Oh yes, everyone who Ryan Murphy casts immediately gets lots of job offers.

All from Ryan Murphy, but still! He may be the next Darren Criss or Evan Peters or Lily Rabe or even Taissa Farmiga!

Ramirez really has gotten so little to do as Versace. Apparently episode 8 where the show goes back to when he started as a designer is a shining moment for Ramirez. Maybe that's the episode he submits for the Emmys?

I know Edgar and he is a great guy who is immensely bright and hard working. He deserves to be a big star.

Speaking of big stars, did this one go supernova, or what happened to her?

I was checking Edgar's imdb page, and he has a movie coming up where he plays Penelope Cruz's love interest. From brother to boyfriend. Ha.

Alright r495 I'll ask. He gay? Straight? Bi? Who's he banging?

In Venezuela, that is often the case, R497.

isn't Edgar a lawyer? Or do I have him confused with someone else? I saw him in Carlos the Jackal and OMG he has a sweet ass. Yes, there's nudity. And it's glorious.

Edgar's Mother is a lawyer and his Father was a Diplomat, R500. Edgar speaks 5 languages and will probably go into politics. There is a movement to draft him to run for office in Venezuela.

Hes hot as shit. Especially with the beard.

Does he mainly live in Venezuela r501, do you know?

Edgar selfie. Love a good hairy chest...

Every episode is a little more boring than the next. I'm thinking this could have been a 6 show series.

^I mean each episode is a little more boring than the previous.

Well, it does go backward in time, so maybe you were right the first time.

This is nitpicking but Jeff's apartment was obviously not Minnesota, it looked totally California. Northern states don't use interior shutters.

Each episode is a bit more interesting for me actually. I also liked that aside from that quick flashback, this episode had no murder in it. A nice break from that.

That have shown all the murders. The rest is backstory R508

[quote] Bette showed her cunt colors when she said she was against gay marriage. Ryan Murphy should have never allow that spawn Sophie to have a part in this show.

Punish the child for the sins of the parent? That way of thinking went out with King Nebuchadnezzar.

By that logic we would have all drawn and quartered Svetlana Stalin after she defected to the United States.

I knew someone who was almost exactly like Andrew, who was doing the same thing at around the same time period. For all I know, him and Andrew could have known each other.

He was a pathological liar, used older men for money. One of his sugar daddies mysteriously ended up dead a few weeks after he added him into his will.

The guy was found not guilty, but i'm not convinced. This happened in Pennsylvania in 1998.

The guy is still lying and trying to scam people, but now that he's old and lost his looks, it's harder for him to con people.

R489 Did the guy you knew have the initials A.S?

[quote]Every episode is a little more boring than the next. I'm thinking this could have been a 6 show series.

Yep. I wonder how they will churn out 5 more 50 min episodes out of this.

ACS: OJ was so captivating, I couldn't wait until the next episode. This one, not so much.

r414 What show are YOU watching? There's no one named Larry.

[quote]Jeff also went to the cops after the military but found it too homophobic as well. He so wanted protect and serve but no one wanted gays.

Maybe he should've tried out for the Village People.

R513 They are going to go back in time and show what led to Cunanan's life falling apart and his odd childhood. Then his eventual suicide. Versace's start as a designer will be shown as well. A lot still to be shown, so cut the criticism.

[quote]Because it’s ladies figure skating at the Olympics?

And Darren is one of the contestants?

There are four eps left r513, not 5.

R474 Yup, he's never denied being an attention whore. He can be self-deprecating and humble, but for sure works hard for the spotlight. I don't think it makes him unlikeable. He wrote a song for Glee, but he had to be the one to approach Murphy and the rest and ask them to listen to it and maybe put it into the show. They did. He was nominated for an Emmy for it. But Ryan Murphy didn't exactly ask him to write the song like when he, for example, asked Chris Colfer to author an episode of the show. Darren was the one to ask. I think it just means being assertive doesn't mean you have to be an asshole, because that he seems not.

R420 Yeah, actually that would have been a nice way to start off with the title event and then elaborate without the upopular time jumps.

R444 But Jeff.... wasn't?

R520 yes he was, he was happy to be a friend when Andrew was buying him gifts and paying for expensive restaurants but then just dropped him when he had nothing material to offer. He deserved what he got...

Darren is so cute as a little psycho, I would do him in a second

R521 People like Andrew do those things so you'll feel about cutting them from your life when they start manipulating you.

R469 And I think in their first meeting it made sense for Jeff to like him. Andrew acted normal and nice. By the point they're sitting together talking about Jeff doing the interview, they still acted like actual friends.

ive lost interest also.

darren's portrayl of the killer is just too cartoonish.

and ditto on the reverse thing. plain gimmicky...

that hot fern guy gunna go places tho: talented/sexy

[quote]But Ryan Murphy didn't exactly ask him to write the song like when he, for example, asked Chris Colfer to author an episode of the show. Darren was the one to ask.

Murphy wasn't much involved with Glee that late in the game. I think Colfer got a call from Brad Falchuk, but whether it was Falchuk's idea or came from Fox or Murphy - is anyone's guess but by then he wasn't on good terms with Murphy.

I won't be so sure either that Criss had to ask. More likely it had come up in conversations in the course of Glee, because it came up in earlier interviews. And as he and Murphy said recently, they were friends (anyone's guess as to how close) and socialized together a lot.

Well, the story he told is he'd wanted to write a song for the show since forever, but in the beginning didn't feel he had the right to ask until the last season, 'cause it was his last chance to (and obviously felt more comfortable doing it what with being friends with the power that be and all).

The told in reverse thing is killing it for me.

was the the writer's decision or the director?

They may have just hit the rewind button from end to beginning,

backwards all the way!

couldnt have been worse.

R526, patented Criss humblebrag. He was always gonna get to do it.

I'm lowkey mad that we didnt get to see Cody and Finn have sex. Not even a kiss!

R529 He's humble but he's not stupid, he knows he has some talent. I get that he's not your cup of tea but how many performers do you know that can do what he can? Acting, dancing, writing songs, composing music, playing several instruments, speaking several languages... He stays nice and works hard.

R443 and r444 are obviously Middle School children just trying to be outre.

R512 no. His name was Tony.

R512 actually yes, his first initial was A (Anthony) but his last name initial was L

I did enjoy the fifth episode. Much better than the previous two episodes. It felt a little bit extra in the middle but it slowly picked it up again towards the end.

I think the acting is fine I think Darren Criss is doing an excellent job. Having said that, IMO, the problem is not with the actors. It's with the direction and the pacing. I've seen dozens of movies and TV shows about true events, where we know who did it we know the outcome we know who dies,etc. So it's a challenge for the director the editing and the writers to build tension and pace a story so that tensions is created and there's some build up. Let's look at Argo, the movie. We all know the story. Some American hostages were hiding out at the Canadian Embassy in Iran. We know they got out alive and got home safely. But the pacing and the build up of tension was really well done.

Now, on OJ, it's more difficult to gauge, because there was just so much spectacle involved in the OJ story. Everyone has become a household word. All the lawyers, the prosecutors, the judge, the Medical examiners the detectives, everyone. They were in our face for months and OJ himself was a major celebrity...even if he didn't register as such in our world.

So I think the popularity of the OJ story had less to do with building dramatic tension editing, pacing etc. &I think the writing was important, but here again, after exhaustive coverage, we knew what they said 80% of the time. Certain relationships were fleshed out, but in general we were mostly reliving an experience.

With the Versace story we know who Gianni was. We are familiar with Donatella, from a distance. But Antonio, his lover is only familiar to a narrow subset of viewers and the other murder victims and their stories are pretty much new material. So the challenges are different.

The pacing on last week’s episode was DEADLY, pun intended.

Amercian Crime OJ - didn't grab me. The documentary O.J.: Made in America was fantastic, however. This Cunanan series is puerile, creepy, flawed, and fascinating.

R531 Agreed. And I just remembered that movie he did with Kristen Wiig, he was actually good in that. Bad movie, though, sadly.

I find this story fascinating and the series is very well done, quality television. But I can't say that I'm *enjoying* it. As a gay man who lived through the 1990s and came out in 1997, this series seems unrelentingly dark and depressing. So many lives that had promise were brought to an untimely end.

Episode 4 was excellent, showing the moments between David M and his father. What a poignant ending, very satisfying.

But now that the murders have all been shown, how can we sustain suspense for four more episodes? The only remaining question left to answer is "why did he do it?"

I've heard that the first eight episodes have been released to critics, with the ninth and final episode being held until broadcast. I'll make a prediction: The final episode will highlight the contrast between Andrew Cunanan and Gianni Versace, and how they were raised in their earliest years. Versace will be shown as a talented boy with a loving, accepting mother who nurtured his creativity. Cunanan will be shown as the son of a beastly, deceptive, homophobic father. We'll be led to feel that it was this contrast of experiences that led their paths to eventually cross in tragedy.

And if I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

R540 That's actually going to be the main plot points of episode 8. Going back to their childhood beginnings.

im done

the reverse order thng is bozo

will play it in reverse when over so it makes sense

bummer

Good god that sailor episode was tedious.

See you next episode r542. I'll be looking for the poster who doesn't know what uppercase is.

R542 You're saying you would prefer the series to end the way episode 2 ended? Hmm...

I even forgot what episode two was a bout. I'm going to go back and watch the OJ one. It never gets old.

The scene where Andrew first meets Jeff in the bar was perfection. I LIVED that scene in the '90s. You go into a bar, a bit nervous. Some manic pixie dream gay picks up on it, and starts talking to you, boosting your confidence. He promises the world. And many times he was Asian or part Asian. Criss has that dynamic nailed.

evan peters would have been brilliant as cunanan....

criss is.... meh.

upper case is for amateurs.....

Nobody here uses [italic]formatting[/italic] anymore.

So creepy to have a psychopath on the thread, saying people deserve to be murdered.

Reminds me of when Luka Magnotta, the Canadian cannibal, was on the run. He found this thread and was defending himself anonymously. Made no sense anyone would defend a killer until a poster linked to examples of his writing. The Luka defender had the same style, syntax, verbiage, etc. Soon Luka was found in an internet cafe reading about himself online.

R548 Peters look NOTHING like Cunanan. At least Darren looks a bit like him

[quote] At least Darren looks a bit like him

He looks a LOT like him.

watching marathon of previous alienist shows, for 2nd time

could never do that of versace series.

one time only.

Looking a bit like cunanan is working against the portrayal....

he does not deliver the goods.

Bitch he's delivering the goods with a giant rainbow colored bow on top.

I dont think Darren makes many acting mistakes. The script is uneven. All actors are doing good work.

Agree, R557. I also think the editing is choppy. They certainly pared down Donatella and Gianni. This needs more glitz to contrast with the meanness and desperation of Andrew. I mean Gianni and Donatella were authentic, and Andrew was a fraud hanging on by his fingernails and his lies.

.drawkcab gninnur s'ti taht evol I

R559 wins the Stephen King REDRUM award!

Darren should have toned up his body for the shirtless shots.

Maybe he quit working out for the later Andrew scenes. How fit would he be eating Oreos in a car?

What r558 says.

Its a weird series because its make up of 1 or 2 episode bravura acting opportunities.

Say what, r564? Is that English? Please don’t tell me the Russian bots are infiltrating our Versace threads to sow division and rancor in the homosexual community!!!

The nudity warning got me all excited to see Cody’s ass, which I’m sure is beautiful and delicious. But no asses at all!

R566 Seriously. What the fuck was the nudity warning for? No nudity at all!

I’d watch FEUD: Kathy vs. Anderson, just to see actors try to play one-of-a-kind spazz Kathy G and personality-free Anderson Cooper and try to make it entertaining.

Of course, Murphy would miscast Sarah Paulson as Kathy Griffin and Evan Peters as Anderson Cooper and Cheyenne Jackson as Andy Cohen, and come up with some random way to squeeze in Jessica Lange (SJP?) and Kathy Bates (Ripa!).

I actually think Cheyenne could do a great Andy Cohen.

R569 They’d need to call in some high-end special effects makeup artists who worked on Pan’s Labyrinth to pull that off.

Cheyenne is too tall and good looking to play Andy. In person, Andy looks a munchkin Cantor from a Gay Synagogue.

Wittrock acted circles around Criss in this episode. Still, the whole thing has become tiresome. Wrap it up, ladies.

Yeah he is definitely better looking, just thinking I bet he could nail Cohen's personality. Would probably be fun for him.

Could the 13 year olds shrieking about nudity grow the fuck up already? TIA!

R573 It would be fun to watch. I have a feeling Jackson would end up coming across more like Paul Lynde than like Andy Cohen. Cohen is sort of a weird personality type...he’s not nearly as flamboyant as Lynde is, but impersonating his weird over-giddiness usually ends up with a Paul Lynde-like vibe.

Miss Mary will not have any discussion of nudity on her Datalounge! Think of the children!111!!

There was a freakin nudity warning but nothing in the episode that warranted it, it was odd and I was happy to see other posters noticed the same thing.

Anyway, please sit your obsessively puritanical ass down.

I should have played David Madson's fag hag and that fat hideous spawn of Bette Middler.

Does Feud: Donald vs. Rosie have any legs?

R578 I don't think RM would ever touch that. It's not glamorous enough for him.

Feud: Melania vs. Stormy?

R580 I would totally watch that. Is Laura Benanti friends with Ryan Murphy? She could play Melania again.

R581 You know the real villain in the end would turn out to be “real first lady” Ivana.

You all joke, but you know that Murphy is already planning American Crime Story: The Trump Collusion. John Travolta as Trump, Emma Roberts as Ivanka, Lea Michele as Hope Hicks, Cody Fern as Jared. And Sarah Paulson will be playing Bob Mueller in drag.

r583 I'm available for Sarah Huckabee Sanders!

Also throwing my hat in the ring for Sarah HS

I’m betting Bette Midler's daughter (in a fat suit) will be playing Sarah Huckabee Sanders.

Bette's daughter doesn't need a fat suit. She's a sow.

[quote]I thought Criss was doing well in the first few episodes. But when they pair him with Fern & Finn, you start to see the "performance".

Agreed. Finn makes Criss seem like Community Theater.

The dog is not a good actor. When Madison comes home, he was not appropriately excited.

Trail descends the ship’s staircase backwards, which no one would do. You get used to the staircases.

You know that dog got the job by licking Ryan Murphy’s balls..

Who would Ryan Murphy cast as Kellyanne in the Trump collusion season?

R591, the corpse of Norman Bates’s mother.

[quote] R386: Darren is giving a master class in acting, I know guys that are just like AC (minus the serial killer part) and he is spot on.

How could this be possible? I’ve met only one full blown nut job in my life, though I think he was harmless. He did get fired for writing on a company website that he’d like to measure Marky Mark with his tongue, though.

Darren Criss will suck RM's dick to play Stephen Miller.

Ryan's Netflix deal means he will be creating lots of shows. I'm sure every actor is trying to suck up to him right now.

Do you think Donatella is more appalled at the exploitation of her brother’s death than she is elated to see Penelope Cruz cast as her?

Orth says in real life David was charismatic and wonderful. Everyone loved him. He was a really nice guy and he was a giving person, helpful to others.

[quote]Who would Ryan Murphy cast as Kellyanne in the Trump collusion season?

The aforementioned dog. Or Frances Conroy in a fright wig.

I guess we use this one next?

No, it's misnamed. Go here instead for thread 4.