Alice, the TV series starring Linda Lavin

You heard wrong, Lavin is universally loved and her co-workers had nothing but praise for her and her talent. Polly Holliday accepted all the blame for the failure of Flo and Diane Ladd left because she stated she was ashamed at not being able to perform up to Lavin's quality of acting.

R1 = Linda Lavin.

By the way Ms. Lavin, I adored you in "The Muppets Take Manhattan".

Such a different reception and reputation than mine.

Lavin missed the stage and put a lot of pressure of the writers to include song & dance routines into many of the episodes.

We were in Los Angeles in the fall of 1978 and saw a taping of an episode.

It was interesting.

Stinkfish.

Like Happy Days, Laverne and Shirley, etc., I have fond memories of watching Alice in its original run. All those shows are unwatchable now IMO.

Spill R5.

Polly was offered to chance to come back after Flo was cancelled, but refused.

I had an entire thread last year that was full within a couple of months.

R7 I still think Alice is funny, although Vera's antics make me cringe.

The Jolene years were bad, but Celia Weston is a really terrific actress. I noticed too in the later years that Lavin was constantly looking at cue cards. Did she have issues remembering her lines?

Sadly, Phillip McKeon never made the cover of Tiger Beat.

I believe that Beth Howland was one of the first actresses to pull double duty on daytime and primetime, working on Alice and starring on Another World simultaneously for the entire run of Alice.

I agree about these shows from the 1970s being mostly unwatchable today.

The only ones I can still watch seem to be L&S and Taxi.

Which role did she play on Another World?

My favorite episode was early in the run, season 1 or 2, where Henry is complaining to Vera that his coffee is cold but his milk is hot. Mel yells something at "dingy" through the kitchen window and then Linda Lavin squats, hikes up her pink dress and takes a moster dump on one of the rotating stools.

It's pretty well known that Lavin didn't get along with either Holiday or Ladd because they stole the show from her. I've never heard anything about her and Howland (or Celia Weston for that matter) having problems. Holiday and Tayback were by far the best thing about that show.

Holiday could be difficult also though. The supporting cast of "Flo" was not a happy group. Holiday had some creative control and cut back on storylines and screen time of the other characters. It really was The Flo Show. She did not get along at all with Sudie Bond, who played her mother on the show, so they didn't have a whole lot of scenes together on the show.

Linda Lavin looks FABULOUS. She just had a co-starring role on the CBS sitcom 9JKL, which sucked, but she's 80 and still working. The pic below is from this past fall.

[quote] Sadly, Phillip McKeon never made the cover of Tiger Beat.

No one in show business is easier to work with than Linda Lavin.

James Coco hated Linda Lavin.

I think the Lear shows hold up, especially the early seasons of All in the Family, Good Times, and the Jeffersons. Almost everything else, from highly praised series like MASH to less critically acclaimed hits like Alice, are just painful to watch.

I didn’t know Polly was difficult, r17.

Sudie Bond was a wonderful character actress. She died in 1984 at the age of 56.

I always love the little touch Lavin put to the ending of the theme song when they showed her soaking her feet - "ba-ba-ba-ba-buummm"

Polly Holliday was so fucking rude to me on St Marks Place...And Linda Lavin is chronically bedeviled by TAX PROBLEMS....try paying them Linda!

Was GG getting Polly to guest star as Rose's blind sister considered something of a coup in 1985?

r13 Beth was never on "Another World." They taped in Brooklyn.

I couldn't stand the Flo character, can't even remember Diane Ladd's part. Celia was the best one.

I think McKeon turned 16 during the run of the show.

He must have been old enough to drive because I read somewhere that while he was on the show he bought himself a black Cadillac.

The person telling the story thought it was funny that this young boy was driving this big, black Cadillac.

Vic Tayback and Beth Howland both guest starred on the Mary Tyler Moore show during that show's early seasons.

R25 what did Polly do or say?

Well, I guess Phillip McKeon proves the theory of BDF.

No one knows if "Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman" holds up because it's almost never been rebroadcast in the last 30 years.

I've had the pleasure of eating at the real Mel's Diner in Phoenix. The sign is still there and the menus pay tribute to the show.

I liked one of Flo's lines ... "I'm still waiting for Mr. Right, but I've had a helluva good time with all the wrong ones."

Like Tyne Daly, Linda Lavin plays herself.

R23 Lucy Lee Flippin and Joyce Bulifant bother talked about how Holiday could be on the set of Flo in the book Single Season Sitcoms of the 1980s: A Complete Guide. Flippin was much more fair in her assessment of her time on the show and on Holiday and pointed out her good points and gestures. Joyce Bulifant not so much. She thought Holiday didn't like her and got her part reduced. She quit the show soon after.

[quote]I didn’t know Polly was difficult, [R17].

I've heard it for years. She's an alumna of my college, and whenever she's come back to make personal appearances for special events, the people I know who've met her have invariably said she was snooty and unpleasant.

Y'all know what you can do!!!!!

LEAVE POLLY ALONE!!!

Linda Lavin is a pretty lousy musical comedy performer. I saw her in Gypsy when she replaced Tyne Daly and it was fairly unpleasant. Hell, I thought Tyne's singing was better and that's really saying a lot. Plus, she didn't seem to understand the character at all. There was no life and no fun in her performance. It was like I was watching a dress rehearsal the first day she got off book. This clip shows how dull she was. If you can't make "Rose's Turn" interesting, you have no business playing the role. But hey, check out the sassy "ba rum BUMP" she adds right after "everything's coming up Rose." WTF?

Haha, it's amazing how the commentators on Linda's performance in R41 are either repulsed or enraptured by it. There seems to be no middle ground about Miss Lavin - you're either for her or against her.

Weirdly enough, she's rather winning here and plays it much more childlike and sweet than most Roses I've seen. It's a pretty great version of the song. There's something thrilling about when she runs up the stairs right before "goodbye to blueberry pie." Maybe her performance just needed the benefit of close ups. And her voice sounds way better on this song than anything else from the show.

R29 that was Vic Tayback who told that story. He said McKeon pissed through money faster than he earned it and loved living a lavish lifestyle always buying the best of everything.

I remember reading that the episode that LL hosted on SNL was never shown again.

Is that true?

When Polly left Hollywood she returned to the apartment on East 10th Street where she'd lived for years.

Linda Lavin publicly praised Celia Weston as the character of Jolene. It was probably because Celia/Jolene was the weakest of all the waitresses on Alice and Linda felt threatened by the popularity of Flo and Belle.

I watched the entire run of Alice and Celia Weston was the least memorable of all the cast. She was adequate but she didn't really strongly register.

I didn't care for Weston as Jolene either. Her mannerisms bugged me. I thought she good in other roles after Alice though.

Beth Howland had done quite a bit of stage work before starring in Alice as well. On the show her singing was never showcased, but her dancing was. The mystery surrounding the announcement of her death still remains.

Alice was never that funny after Flo left. Also Vera's character, who was just a bit out there at the beginning of the show, became increasingly ridiculous and over the top so she was just irritating.

R51 Vera in the TV series was nothing like the Vera from the movie it was based on.

R45 LL was Louise Lasser from "Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman."

the theme song makes me cum

Beth recording "(Not) Getting Married Today" for the [italic]Company[/italic] cast album

Classic DL discussion of the magic that was Linda Lavin singing the theme song

Weston was good; it was the writing that sucked. She would have been great on a show like Designing Women.

Couldn’t stand Beth Howland. Hated her in her two appearances on The MTM show and hated her on Alice. There was just something off putting about her.

Lavin can be an effective actress (her appearances on The Good Wife were terrific) but was totally miscast as Alice. Even Bonnie Franklin would have made a more suitable Alice.

Holiday was fun on Alice but her spin-off was awful. Ladd was forgettable.

I grew up as a kid with this show. I hated when they had LL sing. I couldn't stand her singing the theme song either. Phillip is Nancy's brother.

Yeah, I could see Bonnie as Alice. As a kid I didn't know LL was a stage and musical actress before the show because she sucked singing. I figured she was just able to make them let her sing because she she was the star and there was nothing they could do about it.

Bonnie Franklin would have been AMAZING as Alice, and she could have run around bra-less telling everyone to "KISS MY TITS!"

[quote] that was Vic Tayback who told that story. He said McKeon pissed through money faster than he earned it and loved living a lavish lifestyle always buying the best of everything.

Tayback left out the part where he shoved McKeon into the backseat of that caddy, then pressed his hairy, musky hole into McKeon's face and barked, "You know what to do!"

[quote] I remember reading that the episode that LL hosted on SNL was never shown again.

Lavin never hosted SNL. She was too uncool even for the Jean Doumanian year.

R62 LL was Louise Lasser from "Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman." And, that episode was with producer Lorne Michaels. Louise was so out of that SNL episode that it was never shown again.

It was strange when Beth Howland died on New Years Eve of 2015- per her request it wasn't announced in the media until six months later. Why would that be?

TV Vera was much more like movie Vera in season one. Vera was sort of a dark, strange character in the first few episodes. There's one where she tried to kill herself over being dumped, in fact. I saw Beth Howland and Charles Kimbrough at the Ahmanson when I went to see Elaine Stritch At Liberty. Coming out to support their old Company co-star.

Again the first season's writing is pretty damn good. The cast is pretty great too, and Polly Holiday absolutely shines. The writing just slowly declined, and took a sharp drop when Holiday left, and got even worse when Diane Ladd left. The final season is the very definition of unwatchable. Dumb people doing and saying dumb things that aren't funny in the least. Holiday was 100% right to refuse to return. The show was garbage by that point.

I saw Lavin in Gypsy was well, and was completely underwhelmed. Why the fuck would they let her play it with an Irish brogue?

The phrase "Who told that woman she could sing?" has been said about Linda Lavin more than any other woman in history. I'm sure of it.

Oh sorry. I thought LL was Linda Lavin. Yes, I remember (and have seen) the Louise Lasser episode.

Linda Lavin CAN"T do SNL. She won't work on the sabbath.

I thought it was because they wouldn't let her scat the sax part of the SNL theme song.

A show that was a time capsule of 70s life well into the 80s. It's like the entire 10 years took place in 1976.

With all of her talent I'm surprised there was never a Linda Lavin Special aired during the 70s. She never recorded an album, nor did the cast participate in Battle of the Network Stars.

There was

Linda and Bonnie on a Hal Linden special.

I love the photo of Philip McKeon and his dick at R19.

R70 I cannot believe I missed that! Where was I?

The "Beth Howland on a daytime show" is a joke about how she resembles daytime actress Victoria Wyndham.

I loved Beth Howland on "Alice". Her character of Vera came off as being dumb but she was really quite smart in another way. Endearing and innocent . She was on the show for the entire 9 seasons.

The original 3 (and best) waitresses on "Alice".

McKeon is packing some hot meat.

Linda Lavin's signature song. She introduced this on Broadway.

And it was recently revived as part of "Prince of Broadway."

Why the fuck did Mel employ three waitresses on the same shift when his diner was always empty.

Good DL casting always suggested LL and Bonnie Franklin switch roles. LL would have been a very believable Ann Roman and Franklin....well, if we had to have her on TV, it might have been that shit show.

If you think Phil's dick is big, you should see mine!

So now you've got me Alice-curious. Is this show on TV anywhere?

It’s on LOGO like e’reyday

It's also on Antenna TV Monday-Fridays at 1pm.

Both Polly Holliday (Flo) and Celia Weston (Jolene) are lesbians. They never married, had children or ever seemed to be romantically involved with men. They both have 'gay' written all over them and their lifestyles.

R84 Celia Weston.

Mel definitely projected an uncle bottom vibe around Tommy...

R86 Mel was a tough cookie and quite macho at times. I have this feeling that at times young guys bottomed for HIM.

The DL thread that's basically a dissertation on Linda Lavin's technique of singing the Alice theme song (she re-recorded it for each season) was a riot.

But she did r69........

"The Boy From..."

Another song of Lavin's that I enjoy listening to. A satiric take of The Girl From Ipanema

can't believe Linda Lavin demanded and GOT the right to sing "Flo's Yellow Rose" the theme song to Polly Holiday's spin-off!

My friend's mom belonged to a church that Polly Holiday belonged to.

They were doing some kind of benefit with an silent auction, and figured Polly might donate something.

My friends mom nervously approached Polly, and somewhat clumsily asked "Excuse me, but are you Flo?"

Polly Holiday looked icicles at her, and coldly replied "I-ah am NOT Flo." And turned around on her heels and walked away.

In 1990, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof with Kathleen Turner was doing its tryout in Boston. My friend dragged me to the stage door after the show. Daniel Hugh Kelly, who played Brick, was standing around chatting with fans, when like a shot, Polly (who'd played Big Mama) sprinted out of the stage door. She was wearing sunglasses, head down, and had one of those plastic things women put over their heads when it rains on. She was in the car and gone in like a 6 second whirl. Needless to say, she was not one to chat.

Everyone stood around waiting for Kathleen Turner, until this fat bitch came out and yelled at us "LONNNNG GONNNE!"

I just went on Youtube and played Linda Lavin singing the theme song from Alice, and my dog took a shit on the floor.

The screengrab at R70 makes it look like Donna Mills, Don Murray and Michelle Lee have heard they're going to be the lead-in to a Linda Lavin special.

Earl was the only memorable thing about the Flo show

R86 [quote] Mel definitely projected an uncle bottom vibe around Tommy...

There was a gay-themed episode where some old buddy of Mel's wanted to take Tommy out fishing and Alice objected after he came out. I don't remember who played Mel's gay friend, but I'm thinking it might have been Robert Goulet. Flo seemed a bit homophobic on that episode.

r43, that version of 'Some People" could not be more offkey if it were Andrea Martin were parodying Linda Lavin singing offkey.

Steve Elmore was the male singer in that Company bit. He was on How To Survive A Marriage as the 1st Peter Willis and worked in the same NBC studio as Lady Bug Eyes Wyndham.

R98, Elmore was also in All That Jazz at the table reading where he was obviously playing Jerry Orbach.

Thank you R82 & R83.

I just saw the title of this thread and started reading. Only got as far as R1 and had to immediately hit Reply.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

She was as beloved as me

I thought Lavin was pretty good so long as she was playing the straight woman /reactor. Her timing was pretty sharp. It's only when she tried to, you know, sing, and dress as those ridiculous characters and be all around self indulgent that it became a cringe fest.

Vera was annoying as f, Flo was overrated (and no one mentioned Holliday's resemblance to Carol Burnett?). I've watched a couple episodes recently though and Mel still makes me laugh - though it's so obvious to any adult what a softy he is.

Early episodes of All in the Family and, surprisingly enough, most of Three's Company, are imo the only shows of that era that really hold up and that I can still watch regularly today.

As for the Lavin vs Franklin smackdown...like I said, I think Lavin can be good enough within certain parameters (she also continued to have a career after her shitcom was cancelled) , but Franklin was just all around insufferable.

I loved Vera Louise Gorman and Jolene Honeycutt.

The fact that Flo turned out to be such a sleeper caused one of the few ruffles in Holliday’s placid career. Flo’s emergence as the prima at Mel’s Diner purportedly upset Linda Lavin, Alice’s nominal star. Polly admits there were some “work tensions” on the set but nothing deeper. “People assumed that because Flo was very big that Linda must have her nose out of joint,” says Polly. “Well, Linda’s a bigger person than that.”

Madelyn Pugh Davis, who wrote for Lucille Ball on all her series, recently wrote in her new autobiography about her experiences writing for Lavin as the head writer on "Alice."

Seems that whenever Lavin refused to do a funny line or a stunt, actress Polly Holliday, who played brassy Flo, would often volunteer for the bit, causing competitive Lavin to re-think her decision.

Ironically, after Holliday left the series for her own spin-off "Flo" in 1980, she was replaced by Diane Ladd, the original Flo from the 1974 film, who played another waitress named Belle. Ladd also said she was not warmly received by Lavin, especially after the year she won a Golden Globe for her role and Lavin did not, even though both were nominated...

Silly Me!

That photo of Holiday also makes her look like an older Tracy Nelson.

[quote]“People assumed that because Flo was very big that Linda must have her nose out of joint,” says Polly. “Well, Linda’s a bigger person than that.”

That's code for calling her a big cunt.

r90 Written by "Esteban Rio Nido," a/k/a Stephen Sondheim.

The weird thing about Lavin is she became famous because of that showstopping rendition of "You've Got Possibilities," in the "Superman" musical, and yet for the rest of her career she's been a horrific singer. It's like she forgot how to sing on key after the age of 30, and tried to mask it with ersatz jazz stylings.

Linda always had pluck

[quote] Linda always had pluck

I hate Linda Lavin.

Diane Ladd only signed for 1 year on Alice and apparently she was glad to leave.

Lavin and Ladd. Not the best of friends.

is Philip McKeon gay? no mention of a wife. kinda has gay face.

He looks dreadful

R116 I read somewhere he's a rightwinger who's a huge fan of Rush Limbaugh.

You all slam this show, but clearly you all like it enough to watch and know everything about it. Sluts.

I loved most every season of Alice except the season with Diane Ladd.

How hairy was Mel's crotch? I love hairy daddy types and I used to fantasize about the forest he must've had down there.

Vic Tayback was one of the most vile creatures ever on television. I would have let Vera stick it in me before Mel.

Read that Linda Lavin was on Barney Miller in a limited role as a female detective when she got the offer to do Alice. The folks at BM really liked her acting and wanted her to stay and make the role permanent....but she did Alice instead.

The 70's shows I think have staying power are All in the Family, Barney Miller, Taxi, WKRP....

That's interesting that the people behind Barney Miller wanted to keep Linda. I wonder if she would have eventually stopped playing to the balcony. Evidently there were no hard feelings and a good deal of pride towards Linda's work, since a clip of her screaming into a purse appeared in BM's last episode.

R87, I like hairy guys, too, and when I was a kid, Mel used to turn me on with his chest hair peeking out of his t-shirt and those furry arms. I actually had a fling with a divorced closeted guy who reminded me a lot of Mel. I was in Paris studying overseas. He cruised me in a book store and we went back to his place. He was of Middle Eastern descent like Tayback, whose parents were Syrian. Hairy and horny motherfucker. He loved to fuck all afternoon into the early evening. He could go 3-4 times easily. I was 20, he was 43, but he wore me out usually. When I left Paris, I never saw him again. Merci, Mel de Paris!

R118 I think that's Scott Baio you're thinking of. I couldn't find any Limbaugh/McKeon references online.

According to the National Enquirer, Vic Tayback was done in by his love of fried seafood. Fried scallops were his favorite. In his retirement he would eat platters of fried seafood practically every day. He was only sixty when he died of a heart attack.

Yeah, but that was 1990 when they were lying about eating animal fat making you fat and selling processed cane sugar as ‘fat free’

Speaking of The National Enquirer they ran this story several years ago concerning "Alice beauty", Beth Howland. I wanted to read the article, but unfortunately missed it on the newsstands.

Would it be either blasphemous or inaccurate if I said it has held up better than the late-era Lucy shows?

I love the idea of Beth Howland as "Alice Beauty"!

R125 There was an episode where Mel spent the night at Vera's and was shown wearing a nightshirt and no bottoms. I remember getting turned on by his hairy calves and nice, masculine feet.

Its premise defied logic. There were three waitresses but only one cook, and they all worked at the same time. No one else worked at the diner.

R131 After all those years of Flo being considered the hot one, she deserves it.

[quote] Its premise defied logic. There were three waitresses but only one cook, and they all worked at the same time. No one else worked at the diner.

Yeah, I know, right?

Why didn't they just have anonymous supernumeraries, like the MJM newsroom did?

I know it was just a TV show but I always wondered how she could afford a semi-nice apartment and take care of that ugly kid- Mel's never seemed all that busy.

What was the average rent of an apartment in Phoenix in the mid-1970s?

50 bucks.

[quote] Its premise defied logic. There were three waitresses but only one cook, and they all worked at the same time. No one else worked at the diner.

Not that I want to defend this shitty sitcom, but I always imagined Mel's to be one of those places that catered to blue collar working people who stopped in for breakfast or lunch and then after the lunch rush, they were closed by 5pm. If that was the case, let's say they were open 6am-5pm. That makes sense that they would only have one shift of waitresses who just worked the full day. And they were probably closed on the weekend.

[quote]Its premise defied logic. There were three waitresses but only one cook, and they all worked at the same time. No one else worked at the diner.

Yes, it's baffling.

When Martha Raye guest-starred, she would take out her dentures and give gum jobs to the crew.

We could have a whole thread about most unrealistic sitcom workplaces. I love Designing Women, but most episodes were less about designing and more about people storming in to talking about what they saw coming in to work/what they heard coming in to work/something Suzanne did.

Three's Company holds up, R103? You're insane.

R140 you're probably right as there were several eps where they wanted to finish work by dinner time and one ep revolved around an alarm that was set for 6PM.

Not even in sitcom fantasy land would a diner that serviced truckers be closed at 5pm or on wknds

r146 apparently knows a lot about "servicing" truckers.

Wait...R132, there was an episode where Mel was just wearing a t-shirt and no bottoms? Just a t-shirt and balls hanging out?

R125 Best hairy chest peeking out of a shirt nearly week after week was Carl Betz on the "Donna Reed Show"'. He was gorgeous and actually had at least one show where he was shirtless and with a towel wrapped around him coming out of the shower. Hugh Beaumont on "Leave it to Beaver" also had some chest hairy peeking out sometimes too.

I sometimes think of Beth Howland when I'm opening up a new package of spaghetti. It makes me laugh. Then I make sure not to spill the pasta all over the floor.

I sometimes think of Beth Howland when I break into a time step, in or out of uniform.

I sometimes think of Beth Howland when I’m taking a shit.

[quote] I sometimes think of Beth Howland when I’m taking a shit.

Is that also when you recorded all the versions of the Alice theme song, Lin?

Was it LL who was Rhoda's nemesis in the first season of RHODA?

Yes. I was thinking it was Joan Van Ark, but she was Joe's ex-wife.

“Name-Linda Lavin Dirt-turns every work situation into misery (poor thing can't help it; she's a neurotic mess). Very nasty, plays twisted games. acted nasty to everyone while working on Tale Of The Allergist's Wife; described by former co-workers as the one person they'd never work with again;”

Clearly Elliott Gould must be relieved they won't be playing husband and wife for much longer.

Ad hominems are not refutations, R144.

Only Larry Dallas & Helen Roper withstand the test of time...

R148 The nightshirt came down to his knees so no balls were hanging out. Just masculine calves and feet. It's possible that Vera was taking care of Mel, at his apartment, not hers. I specifically remember Vera using the word "pedangling" in reference to his ability to hang his legs over the side of the bed. This is when we were able to get a good look at his feet and toes. Though we never got any glimpse of his balls, I found the whole scene very sexy. It may have been one from the earlier season.

Ladd was fantastic in the film as Flo. She made a better Flo than Holiday but Belle was underwritten.

I liked Jolene but the show was running on fumes at the end. Celia Weston's great though.

Holiday's best acting moment ever is being rocketed out of her house to her death in her stair climber chair.

Why wasn’t Ladd cast as Flo from the beginning?

Why did Polly Holliday look 60 when she was only 40?

R163, Ladd was asked but didn't want to do TV at the time. After she came back to earth and realized she had no career. TV didn't look so bad.

Beth Howland reminds me of a woman at the office who had a consistent expression of surprise whenever you ran into her outside of the cubicle area where we both sat. I’m not talking about running into her at the grocery store on the weekend. If you saw her in the hallway or walked into the same elevator in our building, you’d get that wide eyed/mouth agape ‘isn’t it the darndest thing’ expression every time. It got on your nerves after a while.

For R149

[quote] Was it LL who was Rhoda's nemesis in the first season of RHODA?

Joan Van Ark played Joe's ex-wife. Linda Lavin played a former "Mean Girl" at Rhoda's High School who accidentally gets invited to a slumber party/reunion Brenda throws for Rhoda.

How big was Philip McKeon’s cock?

^Not as big as Nancy's.

R168, I remember she was wearing a really bad blonde wig and she had sweat stains under her armpits.

[quote] “Name-Linda Lavin Dirt-turns every work situation into misery (poor thing can't help it; she's a neurotic mess). Very nasty, plays twisted games.

It's true: you do NOT want to play "Twister" with Linda. She is a ruthless master at that game.

Alice's apartment was pretty realistic. It was a shitty, tiny, one bedroom. I would say it was probably $125/month.

I remember watching this show as a young gayling and wanting a small apartment just like Vera's, with her closet of clothes beneath her elevated bed. I thought it was just so cool.

Poor Flo stuck out at the old trailer court on route 5

R174 you could of asked your parents for a bunk bed like Vera's

Mel vs. "The Gays"

the original pilot for 3's company, with different actors!

Celia Weston on working with Lavin (who is mentioned as being "supposedly difficult" in the article) a few months after the show ended.

[quote]She was very generous to me both professionally and personally, and I've got nothing to lose at this point, so why would I lie? She is a stickler for maintaining her vision of the show, however.

Her vision of the show - I AM the STAR of the show, and don't you forget it!

[quote]Why wasn’t Ladd cast as Flo from the beginning?

Going from Ellen Burstyn to Linda Lavin is like going from Bloomingdale's to Walmart.

179: well she WAS the star of the show and if she didn't maintain her vision of it, who would? It wasn't called Jolene!

R125 Thanks from 149 re: Carl Betz. I've been watching some of the old "Donna Reed" shows as an antidote to some of the political crap going on nowadays. It still holds up, though it's a whole different world where families eat meals together and parents help solve problems regularly, though so far they did deal with the family occasionally taking in a neglected kid and another neighbor trying to leave a baby on their doorstep because he doesn't know how to be a single parent and coordinate child care and such. Donna Reed was so pretty and such a good actress, Carl Betz a hunk and fine actor, and kids Shelley "Johnny Angel" Fabares and Paul "My Dad" Petersen believable offspring. Now, I can't wait till I get to Betz's shirtless scene! Too bad he died quite young.

I beat off to Vic Tayback all the time. Such a stud.

Wtf is DL's obsession with Vic Tayback? I've been lurking here since 2009 and it's one of the first things I've noticed - and clearly continues to this day.

R184, I think its the whole t-shirt and hanging balls thing...

It's my understanding Beth Howland would throw straws at everyone.

VERA LOUISE GORMAN.

We never got to see Daddy Duke on the TV show did we?

Love the vocals for this episode closing...

I believe Linda is channeling Pazuzu with a skat ending.

As a young gayling,I would fantasize about getting fucked by Philip McKeon. I was sure he was huge.

Remember that instant in time when Linda Lavin and Kip Niven were the Hollywood "IT" couple, temporarily displacing Joyce DeWitt and Ray Buktenica, until it all came crashing down?

I thought Jolene was hilarious. My favorite bit was when Vera, who had gotten hooked on watching soap operas, said she was missing her soaps and Jolene talked about how she had misplaced two cakes of Camay.

r190

Only his face dear

[quote]It's my understanding Beth Howland would throw straws at everyone.

Yeah she was quite the bitch, remember her as Mary's nemesis on Mary Tyler Moore.

I should watch some of the Diane Ladd episodes again. When I was a kid, I hated her as Belle because she wasn't Flo...not knowing that she was the original Flo. I finally saw the movie as an adult, and I could watch Ladd as Flo over and over. She was great.

The best line, that I still use, is when Mel is badgering an exasperated Flo about Vera's whereabouts, and Ladd's Flo finally screams: "She went to shit and the hogs ate her!!!!"

Is Diane Ladd related to Miss Cheryl Ladd?

I remember that R191, and all the tabloids were trying to give them a 'couple' name ala Brangelina or Bennifer, but somhow 'Kinda' and 'Lip' just didnt' work. Now 'Dewitenikta' on the other hand...

Why, yes Diane........

Beth Howland could've played Karen Carpenter c. 1980

I remember reading a blurb about Alice in some book on the history of TV. It credited the show's success to a good concept and good acting.

R190 You can see the outline of his schlong in the above post @ R19

HERE is the missing episode everyone has been talking ABOUT!

Polly was really miscast on Golden Grils as Rose's sister. They looked absolutely nothing alike. I could buy Inga Swenson as her other sister, but not Polly.

Rose was adopted.

Holiday had to close her eyes to act blind on GG. And I wanted to know HOW she went blind.

Real camera footage of Linda Lavin's revenge on Holiday.

Remember the episode where Mel's nerdy cousin comes to visit and Mel decides to take him out for a night on the town and they accidentally end up in the leather bar? The girls had to go to the bar in disguise and when Vera sees Mel in the sling she asks if she can have a turn in the hammock and Mel says, "Stow it dinghy!" Flo said they must be making fried chicken because there was Crisco everywhere and then someone asked Alice if she was into scat and she broke into a jazz rendition of YMCA.

Dinghy?

R207 wins!

R202 thanks. That dialogue is very true to the show.

[quote]Is Diane Ladd related to Miss Cheryl Ladd?

No, she's related to Miss Laura Dern.

Did Polly ever come back to do a guest appearance on Alice after Flo was cancelled? Like Farrah on CA?

I'm now obsessed with her Gypsy performance and the "ba rum BUMP!"

When Telly Savalas made a cameo, seeing him dance with Vic Tayback was RAW SEXUAL HEAT

Did "Alice" have any "very special" Emmy-bait episodes? For example, Alice nearly being raped, Flo waiting for the results of her VD test, or Tommy driving drunk?

Surprisingly, no. It seems to have been the one CBS sitcom from that era that eschewed social issues. Actually, it kinda resembled Lucille Ball's shows in the sense that there were a lot of celebrity guest stars.

Alice was written, directed & produced by the old ILL crowd

Desi even did a guest turn

The closest thing to a "very special" episode was the one where an ex-jock friend of Mel's casually dates Alice for a while, then comes out to her, then puts her on the spot by asking if he can take Tommy on a fishing trip.

Alice=Dorothy=Carrie

Vera=Rose=Charlotte

Flo=Blanche=Samantha

Mel=Sophia=Miranda

I couldn't watch this show as a kid because I thought it was depressing with the shouting, depressing setting, and unattractive people.

Belle = Shelley Hack!

R218 Yes, that was the episode where Flo was a bit homophobic.

[quote]I couldn't watch this show as a kid because I thought it was depressing with the shouting, depressing setting, and unattractive people.

As a kid, I felt that way about Maude. I pitied the Phillip character having to live with those ghastly adults. Alice was easier to take because my father watched Hee Haw, so I was accustomed to depressing settings and unattractive people on TV.

Linda Lavin was beautiful and very attractive. Polly was not, but they dressed her like a slut to make her look sexy. Beth Howland was just a poor creature. What else can be said about her?!?! Vic was hideous, and the boy was ugly.

Bill Macy was always trying to take his clothes off in "Maude" since he had been in the original "Oh! Calcutta!".

r223 Bea Arthur looked better heavier when she was in "Maude." She deliberately lost all of that weight for GG because she said she wanted the audience to see a new character, but then she somehow grew a beak of a nose.

Philp is the ultimate definition of big dick face. For current young men on tv with this, look at the febreeze commercial with the 2 needs wearing shorts with mom smelling white socks in their room. Ugly guys but still sexy.

Bea didn't lose the weight for GG. She had already lost it a few years earlier, which is evident during her guest role of God on Soap and then on the dreadful Amanda's.

Well, it was no Angie.

But was it better than "Fay"?

It wasn't quite as good as Fay, R230, but it was slightly better than The Montefuscos.

They wanted Lucy to play Flo but Gary talked her out of it.

Polly was an old witch

[quote] I couldn't watch this show as a kid because I thought it was depressing with the shouting, depressing setting, and unattractive people.

The movie "Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore" was very depressing, though Ellen Burstyn was much more attractive than Linda Lavin.

Philip McKeon back in the day. Cutie pie.

His penmanship was beautiful!

I like how working class it was. You rarely see that on tv anymore. And how the Camelback Inn was The Ritz.

Hottie.

Vera and Tommy dancing.

Tommy and I knew a type of love you could never know.

"Vic Tayback was one of the most vile creatures ever on television.'

You're fucked in the head. There was nothing "vile" about Vic Tayback. He was a good actor and sexy in a bearish kind of way.

Vic Tayback sexy? If you like super-hairy guys with a gut, poor posture, and a five o'clock shadow that could put Fred Flintstone to shame, then I guess he is sexy. Though I would question your taste level. Hot guys in my book are smooth, have a flat, hard stomach, and don't have a prominent five o'clock shadow. Taylor Lautner for example.

How pissed was Linda that she only got one Emmy nomination for the show? It was on for almost a decade and she only received one measly nomination.

I've been watching it lately...Lavin cracks me up with her bizarre mannerisms and facial expressions, but not in the way she intended.

R242 might as well date women.

Vic had a raw sexual heat that was undeniable

Mel was the best curmudgeon in sitcom history

Telly danced with him and changed the game forever

so desirable!

yuck

Tommy and Mel having a heart to heart.

I'd bottom for him.

[quote] I agree about these shows from the 1970s being mostly unwatchable today.

The MTM Show and The Bob Newhart Show have held up remarkably well.

Not much of a gravestone for Vic Tayback.

It’s pretty good for greasy diner cook.

Gravestones are not sexy

The season with Belle.

Did anyone have the Jolene poster hanging on their wall?

I doubt anyone on this thread did.

Smokin’ Beth Howland was more my speed.

Vera smoked?

Has Vic Tayback appeared shirtless in anything he's been in?

Let your imagination run wild, r260.

R256, I can't EVEN with that cheesecake photo of Celia Weston!

Glamming it up.

Vera had a face that was made for slapping.

VICIOUSLY

Before Christine Baranski came along, Beth Howland owned the title of Worst Nose Job on Television.

Hard to believe Tayback was only 60 when he died. He looked 60 when the show started.

None of the girls I knew back then thought Philip McKeon was cute or sexy or anything. He was gross. Matt Dillon was the guy everyone liked. I couldn’t understand why he was in Tiger Beat. Same with Glenn Scarpetti. Ew.

Now I know it was the gay boys who thought he was sexy.

R268 I think if Philip McKeon were a singer or on a TV series that was popular among teens at the time he would have had more female fans. They loved Leif Garrett and Philip seemed to have that same blond girly-boy appeal that girls in the 70s were into.

Brown bag it and go about your business...

Beth Holland relaxing

R260 Besides Vic Tayback, there's also Ed Asner, who if I recall was either shirtless or wearing a wife-beater in "Rich Man, Poor Man" and had very hair arms and back.

No one talks about that creepy actor who played the regular customer

Beth looks so happy, r271! Linda Lavin never knew how to relax. Where's the relaxing photo that she ever had shot?

R259 Funny you should ask.

There's an episode where the gang makes a deal to each give up their worst vice. Mel had to give up gambling, Alice had to give up chocolate, Flo had to give up coffee, and Vera had to give up smoking.

And in the episode, they show Vera smoking all the time. Thing is, is was in season 3. Never before in the series had we seen Vera smoke. Never before had they mentioned Vera smoked. And never again was it mentioned after that episode. Even when I watched it as a little kid, I realized that was pretty bad writing.

R273 How would you like a nice third degree burn.

R275 I'm pretty sure Beth smoked in real life. She did die of Lung cancer.

R277 Beth didn't die of lung cancer. She slipped on a box of straws.

Vic Tayback shares the same DL fascination that that actor who played Wojo on Barney Miller does.

This is Mel Sharples in his Navy days.

Yes r279.

Hell yeah!! Take me, daddy!

Here's Vera with the exploding box of straws.

The Health and Safety Inspector at Mel's Diner.

Was Vera a virgin when she married Coco? Was it a lavender marriage?

Anyone remember the movie The Choir Boys? Vic Tayback played a cop who was the undercover bait in a mens room sex sting. What's surprising is the hot young twink who tried to pick him up and was eventually let go after a stern lecture.

Victor (Vic) Tayback...Burbank High...'48

Vic on Mission Impossible

R286, you're forgetting the most important part. That guy who was released went back to cruising in the park and is shot dead by a shellshocked Perry King. The killing is covered up by the police department.

vic Tayback had cock sucking lips

R273, you mean Marv Kaplan as Henry? I liked Henry. He has a brief scene in "Wild at Heart" where Laura Dertn has a flashback when he raped her as a teen and Diane Ladd goes ballistic. Weirdest "Alice" reunion ever.

Tayback was of Syrian descent. His folks were from Aleppo.

"Not much of a gravestone for Vic Tayback."

What's your fixation on his gravestone, of all things? By the way, his gravestone is fine. What do think he should have had, a garish mausoleum that trumpeted "VIC TAYBACK, STAR OF STAGE AND SCREEN, MEL SHARPLES OF THE HIT TV SHOW ALICE?"

He was one of those actors who always looked the same for some reason. Michael Conrad, another actor who did a lot tv and movie work before getting his plum tv role, was the same way. He looked the same on "Hill Street Blues" as he did in "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?"

His gravestone is fine but it would have been made better by adding a little button one could press to hear Linda Lavin sing, "There's a dead guy in town and he's feelin' cold..."

Huh?

I remembered R289 but chose to ignore it, and all the anti-gay slurs including "park fairie".

[quote]and had very hairy arms and back.

Are you sure that wasn't Bea Arthur?

R297 I just shaved my mustache.

That's Kirker

With ODAAT being a critical hit on Netflix I wonder if an Alice revamp is next.

Was there actual rivalry between Linda Lavin and Bonnie Franklin or is that just here on DL?

R287 in looking at that photo of Vic Tayback I would say he has big dick face.

Middle Eastern guys tend to, R302.

"Playing to the balcony" describes the way-too-loud performances on "Alice" very well.

Did Mel and Flo ever have sex, or am I just imagining that?

[quote] "Playing to the balcony" describes the way-too-loud performances on "Alice" very well.

The flip side of that is that Saturday morning cartoons were stiff as boards.

[quote] Did Mel and Flo ever have sex, or am I just imagining that?

Vic and Flo have been seen out on the town together.

The spinoff for Polly Holliday was originally titled "Two Tits, A Hole and A Heartbeat" until wiser heads as CBS prevailed and suggested the title of the show be changed to "Flo."

A little interesting tidbit: I watched the pilot on Logo for the first time ever. A customer Flo waits on makes a reference to All the presidents Men. Holliday was not only in ATPM, but was good friends with Dustin Hoffman who got her that part. I mean sure the reference was no accident.

r308

I hard think so, because if that was the case the would've included her ever present camel-toe

r301

Alice was a top ten, often top 5 show, whereas ODAAT could barely manage the top 20 and squeak into the top 10 a few times.

As much as I loathe Bonnie, ODAAT was a superior show to ALICE.

I imagine Polly Holliday to be a lesbian.

I recall someone saying on here that orignally the tv show was supposed to revolve more around Alice's relationship with Tommy as the film had done; however, after Alfred Lutter was let go (he had been Tommy in the film and at least played him in the pilot, if not a few early episodes) and replaced by Philip McKeon, it quickly became apparent that McKeon didn't have the acting chops that Lutter did, this along with Polly Holliday's Flo breaking out as an audience favorite turned the focus of the show away from the mother/son situation and onto the waitresses and Mel and the diner. This shift can be noted in the opening credits as the seasons progress and McKeon moves from second billing to the middle with know vanity credit.

Philip McKeon wasn't even the best actor in his own family. He sure wasn't bad to look at, though.

Funny how in the movie Alice was an Irish woman with a Jewish son, while on TV she was a Jewish woman with an Irish son.

Even if their cartoons (at best) are more consistently funny than Disney's, this and [italic]Night Court[/italic] were the only Warner Bros.-produced sitcom I ever liked at any stage of my life.

I was a young gaying during the show's prime, and Tommy made me feel funny. He stirred something inside me. I would come to understand what it all meant a few years later.

Linda Lavin really wanted to show off her diversity by recording so many versions of the theme song. Personally, I preferred the original theme ending "...awhile...ba-ba-ba-ba-baaaa.." to "..so sweeeeeeeeeeetttttt." which was heard in later seasons.

why was alfred lutter let go? he was a much better actor. Did they want someone not quite as perniciously ugly?

Vera & Jolene were my two favorite characters on the show.

R320, most likely, but he was terrific in the film.

R322, I think it was said he started growing and by the time the series rolled around, he looked too old.

R320, he was getting taller than the most of the cast. Lutter didn't do much but "Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore" and "The Bad News Bears" are two great 70s films.

Phil McKeon as Tommy (and Socorro) sucks!

Diane Ladd played Flo in the movie. Was she not asked to recreate her role or did she turn it down? Then when they brought her in to do Belle, she couldn't live up to what Polly Holiday had done with the role and the writers didn't know how to make Belle a distinctive character. Personally, I think they should have made Belle a rival of Alice and the comedy would come out of how each one manipulated Vera to get back at the other one. But it was the late 70s and revenge comedy wasn't yet a thing.

[quote]Was there actual rivalry between Linda Lavin and Bonnie Franklin or is that just here on DL?

Yes, there was rivalry. Linda Lavin preferred Shirley Jones while Bonnie Franklin preferred Florence Henderson.

Fun fact: Bonnie and Linda had both been nominated for Supporting Actress Tonys in 1970. Bonnie for Applause; Linda for Last of the Red Hot Lovers. I'm sure it chapped Linda's ass that Bonnie was nominated for a musical and she wasn't.

Linda wanted someone who wasn't a threat to her star status.

What star status? She took on a sitcom character that Oscar winner Ellen Burstyn had turned down.

The show was called [italic]Alice[/italic] and she was the star of it.

[quote]The show was called Alice and she was the star of it.

She was unknown to the tv viewing public taking a role that had won an Oscar for an actress in the movies. If Burstyn had agreed to do the sitcom, nobody would have ever heard for Lindsey Lavina.

Burstyn did do a sitcom in the 1980s. It flopped.

I remember reading in TV Guide that the network producers were asked to tone down Flo because she was too sexually assertive. Apparently parents didn't want their kids watching her during family hour.

My camel toe IS family friendly

I could never understand why Flo was supposed to be the town pump of Phoenix. She was a hatchet-faced hag who looked 60, but her poon got tons of traffic from all the guys in town. It made no sense, as haggy and old-looking as she was.

R335, I have no idea.

In all fairness, r335, the men she let into her trailer weren't exactly hotties. I think the point was that she was willing and available and attracted men who didn't want to try too hard. I think Blanche dated rich ugly men because they would take her to fancy restaurants. Flo just dated truckers who didn't put much effort in and would buy her a few drinks at the local watering hole.

Flo was popular because she took it up the ass. That was well-known at the time at Phoenix truck stops.

It was well known that Flo roofied men. She would mix it in their grits. They would wake up in her trailer not knowing what they had done.

IN the movie, Flo was prettier, married and had a wonderful foul mouth.

Diane Ladd was so young and pretty in that clip. What happened in the few years between the movie and her season on the show? She aged 20 years.

Whereas Vic Tayback as Mel was exactly the same from day one. At his place behind the counter and everything.

[quote] IN the movie, Flo was prettier, married and had a wonderful foul mouth.

CBS cracked down on how much profanity Archie Bunker could use. He could say "goddamn it" in 1973, but when the Bunkers had a draft dodger as a guest for Christmas dinner, Archie's "goddamn" was overdubbed with "rotten, stinking" for the original broadcast and has been that way ever since. The Family Viewing Hour is the reason for that.

[quote]CBS cracked down on how much profanity Archie Bunker could use.

I remember an episode of The Jeffersons. George was doing a lot of religious talk about God and Jesus, then all of a sudden he said the word, "Bastard." Even in my teenage mind, I knew they threw in all the religious stuff so they could say the B word which was rarely used on tv at that time.

Diane Ladd was known to be difficult to work with. In fact they had trouble with her on every TV series she was in. Therefore Polly Holliday got the character of Flo, while Diane wasn't asked.

R344, I'm fairly certain the episode was a flashback when George finds out Dr. Martin Luther King had been killed. I think he throws a chair through his window and screams "You bastards." It was every bit as unnerving as Damn, damn, damn.

We're all forgetting the episode where Vera told Mel to "stow it up your motherfucking ass, cocksucker!"?

Diane Ladd was never happy to lose an Oscar.

It makes me laugh thinking of those parents having to send their kids to bed early because Flo was going to be on.

.....

Beth Howland lived in Santa Monica.

As a carnival barker on the pier?

Wasn't Beth Howland ,married to Charles Kimbrough at the time of her death? He played Jim Dial on Murphy Brown and also costarred with Beth in Company on Broadway.

They were married for many years. R353.

Beth Howland must've had a great financial manager because after Alice she never worked again for the remaining 30 years of her life.

R355 Beth Howland went into semi-retirement after Alice but continued to do guest roles on TV shows until the early 2000's.

Beth Howland was married to eccentric actor Michael J. Pollard and they had 1 child.

Michael J Pollard with Doris Day in Caprice.

That must be one odd looking child.

That child is 50

The original Flo, Vera and Alice (Diane Ladd, Valerie Curtin, Ellen Burstyn).

Vic Tayback played Mel in both the movie and TV show.

In the movie, Mel's Diner was located in Tucson, AZ. In the TV show it was located in Phoenix.

A young Jodie Foster in "Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore" (1974).

A young Jodie Foster in "Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore" (1974).

[quote] Vic Tayback sexy? If you like super-hairy guys with a gut, poor posture, and a five o'clock shadow that could put Fred Flintstone to shame, then I guess he is sexy. Though I would question your taste level. Hot guys in my book are smooth, have a flat, hard stomach, and don't have a prominent five o'clock shadow. Taylor Lautner for example.

So let me get this straight: you're saying you find has-been [italic]Taylor Lautner[/italic] hot, and you're bitching about someone [italic]else's[/italic] taste level.

Vera and the exploding box of straws!

Why do you think they decided to make Alice de facto Jewish for the TV show?

Beth may have had Alice money, but I'm certain she also lived off her husband's Murphy Brown money once that ran out.

Lavin had such a fresh-freckled face.

The Vera character changed from the movie to the sitcom. In the movie, she was dark and strange. In the sitcom, she was the ditzy, clumsy airhead.

Valerie Curtin went on to do the awful 9 to 5 sitcom. Was she offered Alice?

She also co-wrote the 1982 romantic comedy Best Friends (starring Burt and Goldie). That one I really liked.

[quote] She also co-wrote the 1982 romantic comedy Best Friends (starring Burt and Goldie). That one I really liked.

She co-wrote a lot of other things (with ex-husband Barry Levinson) including Inside Moves and ...And Justice for All (for which she was nominated for an Oscar.)

Does anyone know why they changed the location from Tucson to Phoenix?

Because LL sounded funnier when she said Phoenix in her Jewish mother voice than she did when she said Tucson

Mel divorced Ruby and moved to Phoenix, which is why it's "Mel & Ruby's Cafe" in the movie and "Mel's Diner" in the TV show. Of course Mel refused to talk about it, going to the point to deny he was ever married.

r374, in the movie Mel was a widower (his dead wife was named Ruby). But yes, I don't think they ever mentioned Ruby in the TV series.

Ellen Burstyn was not present when she won the Best Actress Oscar for "Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore". The movie's director Martin Scorsese accepted on her behalf.

Ellen was doing STNY on Broadway and also didn't think she'd win.

It was fairly customary for lazy ungrateful actresses back then not to show up, but I was always available to swoop in and collect anybody's Oscar.

I'm actually surprised they went with a more ethnic type like Lavin, rather than try to get an actress with the same safe WASPy look that Burstyn had.

Beth won an Oscar AFTER Alice ended.

Coco was the REAL victim of casting.

r380 Beth who?

Coco who?

Remember the episode where Alice comes home and calls out for Tommy and when he doesn't answer she goes into his room and Tommy was laying on his bed rubbing one out like a madman and Alice freaked out? Then she asked Mel to talk to Tommy and explain the birds and the bees and Mel said he would. Alice left he apartment so they could talk and when she came home she called out and when no one answered she went into Tommy's room and saw Mel railing Tommy real good. That was funny.

I remember the episode where the gay man wanted to take Tommy camping and Alice had to think about it.

I remember that too R383. He was a friend of Mel's and Alice wanted Tommy to hang around him to have a male role model since Tommy didn't have a father.

At the end when Alice agrees that Tommy can go on the fishing trip she starts to leave the apartment and the guy asks where she's going and Alice says, "If you're taking Tommy fishing I have to go to the diner to get you a gallon of Crisco...to fry the fish!"

That was Denny Miller who played the gay guy, who also appeared on TWO episodes of Gilligan's Island.

[quote]Beth who?

Beth Howland

[quote]Coco who?

The original Sophia

Beth Howland is an Oscar winner??

Exactly my point, R386. R380 seems to be delusional.

The guy who played Coco in the pilot of "The Golden Girls" played Vera's husband the final few seasons of "Alice." No idea what this is about Beth winning an Oscar.

Disappointed that "A Town Like Alice" had nothing to do with the show. As was Lavin.

Did Linda Lavin invite Vic, Beth and Polly to appear her TV special?

I heard that she had Beth Howland murdered because she was going to write an expose' about some snuff films that Linda had made.

Can anyone confirm?

no Beth got killed because she threw straws at Obama.

I haven't seen the TV series in a long time, but I just happened to watch the episode of Phyllis that Lavin guest starred in. What I noticed about her performance is that she smiled a lot and I wondered if she also smiled a lot with her acting in Alice.

I know she smiled a lot when Polly Holliday left the show and smiled even more when "Flo" was cancelled after a season or two.

^ Haha.

The scripts on Flo's show just weren't that funny. And she really didn't have that many good line. Polly Holliday deserved better. Lasted for 29 episodes.

Flo was one note really and she had a horrible cast surrounding her except for Lucy Lee Flippin, who steals everything she's in, which is why Polly limited her because she didn't want Lucy Lee to be Flo to her Alice.

FLO had some great character actors who would each go on to do much better stuff - Geoffrey Lewis (Juliette’s dad), Leo Burmester, and Sudie Bond.

No, Flo's supporting cast was horrible, that is why they were on the show. None of them went on to be stars. You even had to put Geoffrey Lewis's main claim being someone else's dad. That and the fact Juliette dated Brad is what she's best known for just reinforce the main point.

Flo needed a stronger supporting cast, only LLF was any good.

[quote]What I noticed about her performance is that she smiled a lot

Smiled or SMELLED?

Screw you, r399! It was the lousy scripts!

[quote]I wondered if she also smiled a lot with her acting in Alice.

Yes, she did.

I'll never forget Diane Ladd's guest appearance way back on the Hazel sitcom. She played Mr. B's trashy Southern cousin Sharlene, and was a pain in the ass to MIssy, Sport and Mr. B.

Ladd looked like her daughter Laura Dern, although prettier.

I was only a kid when the show was on which is when I saw it, so wasn't as aware of acting technique as now. The smiling thing is also used by actors Tyne Daly and Elizabeth Franz. It's an odd choice.

And Linda Lavin was a guest star on Rhoda, right before she did Alice. She was hilarious as Rhoda's former high school nemesis who accidentally gets invited to her wedding shower and ruins it by being rude to everyone.

"Speaking of trimming the fat, know what I mean, Brenda ?"

Lavin and Valerie Harper on Rhoda. She played a rich bitch character named Linda.

She was good on Phyllis too, though as well as smiling she also did a lot of hair fiddling.

[quote] ...except for Lucy Lee Flippin, who steals everything she's in

Yes, she does. Check her out at the 0:59 mark from the softcore porn film The Telephone Book.

I’m not seeing prettier in that pic, r403.

[quote]She played a rich bitch character named Linda.

You think she was acting?

Linda Lavin tends to smile when she's nervous. Andrea Martin had her down to a tee in the SCTV clip.

Linda Lavin's star-making turn on Broadway in "It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's Superman."

She introduced the standard, "You've Got Possibilities" and stopped the show every night.

I hatred Linda's singing voice...she and Bonnie Franklin - who on Broadway told them that they could sing!?

r412 We've been over this.

R413 I can see Lavin has talent. Bonnie Franklin always disturbed me.

It's a shame Lavin and Franklin never did a Baby Jane remake while Bonnie was still alive.

R416 It would've been more interesting than the dreadful Redgrave sisters' remake.

Lavin as Baby Jane, of course.

[quote] Ellen was doing STNY on Broadway and also didn't think she'd win.

Ellen says in her autobiography she felt it was unfair to the paying audience of STNY to see her understudy instead of her on stage. As some wait months for tickets for the show. The show was willing to give her the night off, but she said no.

Vic Tayback used to dine regularly at the SmokeHouse Restaurant.

Being rude to everyone, r405? In other words, Linda Lavin was playing herself.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

With all the TV reboots that have been happening I wonder if there is any interest in resurrecting Alice. It would be interesting to see who they would cast.

I love Linda.

[quote] It would be interesting to see who they would cast.

A sassy black woman to play Flo, for sure.

A gay man as Vera?

Mel is a Mexican, residing in Phoenix illegally.

I'm sorry, a "Dreamer".

How did Polly Holliday get the reputation for being a total bitch? I would have thought she'd be the nice one.

I read the memoir of Ellen Burstyn (the original Alice) and her one and only husband was a total psycho. Had terrible problems with him for years. Stalked her and wanted to kill her.

Finally, years later, she met with him and talked to him nicely, forgiving him and being kind to him. Several days later he committed suicide. His family was furious with her and of course she felt guilty. It was worse than any drama movie that she made because she was living it.

[quote] It was worse than any drama movie that she made because she was living it.

Worse even then the drama I directed her in about student protestors at Georgetown?

There was a great episode where Vera tries to break a world record for tap dancing.

OP, you keep hearing rumors because this topic comes up in a new thread every 3 weeks like clockwork!

r427

Camel toe

🎶Bum Bum Bum Bum Buuuuuump..🎶

“Kicking myself for nothing is my favorite sport.”

I wanted to be Alice's son who went away with gay Denny Miller on a camping trip.

Tommy!

R435, Denny Miller was a magnificent looking man. Would Alice have felt differently if the gay guy looked stereotypical, like maybe Wallace Shawn?

[quote]How did Polly Holliday get the reputation for being a total bitch? I would have thought she'd be the nice one.

I think Polly Holliday was resistant to change. I used to take acting class with Bill Hickey. He was in the Broadway revival of "Arsenic and Old Lace" with Holliday. He told the story that some nights, he'd say a line differently to keep things fresh and afterwards she would come to his dressing room and yell at him for changing things. I think after awhile, he did it just to screw with her because he really relished telling that story.

Alice was Wentworth on Barney Miller and she put Wojo's big nasty ass in places where it had no business going.

Linda had a pretty strong voice during Superman. Her version of that song is definitive. What the fuck happened by the time she got to Gypsy? One would assume she'd have been a better fit in the role than Tyne Daly (who seemed to have very little singing experience), but somehow Daly was the one who was brilliant and Lavin pretty much sucked.

I've seen just about all the major Roses and Lavin had to have been one of the worst. I don't know how. You could see that she was making really interesting, valid choices most of the time, but it just didn't work. She was too...cold, maybe? I don't know. You just didn't root for her. You need to kinda root for Rose even if you think she's nuts.

Her added "ba rah bump" in "Rose's Turn" kills me, though. What an awful choice.

I suspect she was insufferable on the set, always looking for a reason to remind everyone she’s really a singer and Broadway star. It’s like people who work shit jobs but think they identify as an actor because they do local theater productions.

Season seven is out now. Two more seasons to go.

What surprised me about Linda and the late Bonnie Franklin was that despite their Broadway backgrounds, they could not sing a lick.

[quote]Season seven is out now. Two more seasons to go.

Why bother? Those later seasons suck. Everyone is just phoning in their tired characterizations.

linda lavin sang that fucking theme song every year though

[quote] linda lavin sang that fucking theme song every year though

The theme music changed with the times. Had the show gone another season she would have been rapping.

Thank God Bonnie Franklin isn't alive to see them get to almost completion on the ALICE DVDs while they only released the first season of ODAAT.

[quote]Those later seasons suck. Everyone is just phoning in their tired characterizations.

They all suck.

I always loved the later seasons. Linda did a lot of singing and Beth's tap dancing skills where showcased more frequently.

That Lurleen character was dreadful

That's Jolene R450, and mind your Ps and Qs, she wound up being the most respected out of all of them...

I have no doubt she is beloved in the trailer court out on route 5

Did Beth Howland have a nose job? I was watching Alice and noticed she had Michael Jackson's nose.

[quote]Did Beth Howland have a nose job? I was watching Alice and noticed she had Michael Jackson's nose.

What the fucking fuck are you talking about?

I'll bet many of those customers at Mel's Diner (along with that Tramp, Jolene) would be Trumpsters if they were around today.

Really? Are we so obsessed with Trump that we have to bring him into a thread on fucking "Alice"? For the love of God, give it a rest, please. I'm begging you.

Belle would have gone total Sarandon and voted for Jill Stein.

I've always been curious as to who ate the Mel's Diner food that was used during the production. Was it saved for the cast and crew or just dumped in the garbage after shooting scenes?

R453 Yes, Beth had a bad nose job. A lot of the nose jobs back then were bad. With Beth, her small nose, thin, long face and big teeth could make her resemble a skeleton.

Here she is with her original nose as a young stage actress.

R458 They sent it home in doggy bags with the studio audience after live tapings.

....

[quote][R453] Yes, Beth had a bad nose job. A lot of the nose jobs back then were bad.

What? How dare you!

A low Vera.

Martha Raye used to take out her dentures and give gum jobs to the crew.

I've been watching the later season's of Alice and am noticing what an awful rat's nest Jolene's hair is. That awful yellow color that does not match the color of the front.

Martha Ray - the fresh mouth.

Did Linda Lavin get along with Celia Weston or was there some tension there as there was with Polly and Diane?

R467 They got along and Celia had good things good to say about Linda right after the show ended, saying she was generous with her personally and professionally. She did note that Linda very insistent on maintaining her "vision" of the show.

I'm sure things would've been different though, if she had felt threatened by Celia.

There were more song and dance routines written into the later seasons of the show. I just watched an episode where Linda Lavin and Martha Raye performed "Do Ya Think I'm Sexy" wearing really skimpy outfits.

R468 Right. Weston was just the right level of adequate without being too good that Lavin was ok with her.

How did the producers EVER think that Lavin would be okay with Diane Ladd? The woman had been nominated for an Oscar for playing Flo in the movie! Of course she was doomed from the start.

Ladd actually won a Golden Globe for playing Belle on Alice, but I think she was already gone from the show when she won it.

Also, they made Belle (the Diane Ladd character) and aspiring singer. Why would they think Lavin would be ok with another singer on the show? The whole thing seems calculated to piss Lavin off.

R451 you can be acclaimed later in your career and be shit on the TV show you got your start on.

Why ydid Beth Howland ask her husband to wait 6 months to announce her death?

R473 It's quite possible that Beth never made that request and it was something her husband told the press to cover up the fact that he kept her corpse around for several months. Either that or he wasn't aware that she had been dead for 6 months.

Lovin' Lavin

You're insane, R474.

What if Linda Lavin had starred in “Alien” and Sigourney Weaver had starred in “Alice”?

I hated Belle. I avoid that year when the episodes appear on TV.

I'd only know Linda Lavin from watching Alice when I was a child. I was then knocked out by her performance in Broadway Bound. She was incredible. A truly great performance. Heartbreaking, gorgeous, and so funny. It was just beautiful.

Sadly, I found her as lousy in Gypsy as she had been good in Broadway Bound. She was shockingly bad in Gypsy. It should have worked. But wow was it not good.

Allergist's Wife she was amazing again. Really hilarious and original. I also LOVED her on The Good Wife. So specific. So, again, original. Her role theoretically could have been an under-five type role, and she turned it into an entire character study that was fascinating and really funny.

And that gay football player episode of Alice!! Whoa boy!! A seminal moment for me. With an emphasis on semin--as it were.

That episode was the first time I'd heard the word "gay" to mean homosexual. I was in the 4th grade. They kept saying that the macho sexy football player was "gay" with total shock and dismay. So I asked my mom what "gay" meant. And she told me. I continued to watch the episode through this new lens.

Late in the episode Alice is torn on whether she should let Tommy go on away on a camping weekend with him. She ultimately lets him go. But when Tommy gets back from the weekend away, he has a confession he has to tell Alice.

I lost my mind as he said this. He has a confession??! No, wait--Tommy Hyatt gets to live MY fantasy on CBS primetime in 1978?? And they are going to tell us?? Now??

Tommy's confession is that during their fun weekend away in the woods--the gay football player--(wait for it--) let him try--(oh. my. god.) a taste of his--(I was dying. Fully dying. Is this happening!? On tv?? Am I--?) BEER! And the episode ends in relief and laughter. All is fine. Alice and Tommy hug. The frame freezes. The credits begin to roll.

But I was never the same.

Never.

Wasn't Lavin going through something during Gypsy? A divorce and/or a pill addiction.

Maybe it was something to do with drinking. That might explain the inexplicable irish accent she gave Rose. And please. I'm irish and I like to drink. I know what I'm talking about here.

I noticed that Linda Lavin has lots of lines around her mouth from pursing her lips. The mouth gesture she makes when she rolls her eyes and purses her lips together with the corners of her mouth turned up - what is that called?

R479 I remember that episode. Flo nearly choked on her gum when she found out "that big hunk of a man" was gay.

r482, it's called Bitch Face.

[quote]Beth's tap dancing skills where showcased more frequently.

Not to mention how consistent she was at throwing straws.

r478

We know Laura, we know.

RIP, Phillip Mckeon

Did Celia Weston wear a wig as Jolene?

The OP couldn't be more wrong. Polly and Linda were BFFs

Philip McKeon had both AIDS and coronavirus.

Why did Beth Howland not want any announcement of her death?