Miss...Arlene...Francis...and her ilk

Arlene has an oopsie outburst.

Arlene was basic as hell!!

Oh for Christ sake Dorothy, you were ALWAYS pissed that I was the adorable one.

Such a party girl......

Her hand position in the ad looks like it is good for holding a pack of cigarettes, a pair of gloves and perhaps the keys to a new car. Just swap one product out and replace with another!

So, dear DLers, which one are you?

I take issue with her "quote" @OP. The newer plastic icicles were shit.

Only the old foil ones hung properly and reflected the tree lights in a shimmering manner.

What's crazy is that I was alive back when Arlene was well known, but I have no memory of her doing ads. I remember Bess Myerson and Julia Something, but to me Arlene was the "What's My Line" lady and that was it.

There are none so blind.......

R2 Fuck you, Dorothy! At least I had a fucking CHIN!

Don't you mean double tchins?

Just three words Arlene.........

Can you imagine that wonderfully theatrical voice telling Bible stories for children?

She wrote the book on charm

Did the critics proclaim her a "dilly" in the role?

Did she find employment in the legitimate theater?

Not only that r19, she was a legitimate theatre (the "re" spelling making it even MORE legitimate!) Cover Girl!

R12 Hilarious.

DAMN! ^ r16 is for r15.....

Sometimes a girl needs to pamper her ankles.....

The Arpège blooper is classic.

She was Joan Hamburg's mentor. It was always sad when people would call in and ask about how Arlene was doing (in her later years). Joan would invariably say "She's doing fine......physically".

She liked to stay in shape by 20 reps each arm with her dumbells every da---oops!

Because of TV many people beyond New York thought she was a quiz show panelist, though Arlene had been in films and on Broadway since the 30s.

After graduating from college her son, Peter, and Bennett Cerf's son, Chris, were roommates. Both straight. Until last year, Chris was the Commissioner of Education in New Jersey.

A few of these women were friends of my parents way way back. The one thing I remember (I was just a small child when they'd come around now and then). They drank like crazy. And smoked like crazy. And talked like crazy. And later I found out that they fucked like crazy too.

Literate, well-dressed, well-mannered on tv. Otherwise drunk, neurotic, insecure, and horny.

The men in that set were even more so.

That was YOU r24?!

Joan Hamburg today at 80.

Auditioning to play Mame on the legitimate stage?

R7 that is my exact experience as well.

Nobody could give the side-eye quite like our Arlene!

On Arlene's WOR radio show, she was interviewing a guy who wrote a book about Cotillions at The Plaza. He had a gay voice. At one point Arlene said, "If I haven't come out by now, I never will." They both laughed hysterically.

R18, Would one find her name in the entertainment section of the newspaper?

R24, my grandmother was of that same era... ladies affected that elegant "grand dame" persona, yet also smoked, drank and cursed like sailors when their guard was down, or among close friends.

Darling r7, don't let my glamorous presence on commercial endorsements fool you. Like Arlene, I often trod the boards of the legitimate stage!

Btw, "ilk" is super fun to say.

The charms of Arlene Francis were beyond me as a child of the 1950s, getting to stay up late (10:30 PM) on Sunday nights, though I was always weirdly fascinated by Dorothy Kilgallen. However, watching all the WML youtube reruns in recent years I find I'm totally besotted by Arlene and appreciate now just how witty and charming and spontaneous she was.

OTOH I adored both Betsy Palmer and Bess Myerson on I've Got a Secret back then but find the former sickeningly sweet and the latter deadly dull in in youtube reruns now. But both pretty ladies, for sure.

Never cared much for the To Tell the Truth ladies. Kitty Carlisle seemed grand and pushy and Peggy Cass was shrill, though I have a vague memory of enjoying Polly Bergen.

[quote]and her ilk

Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

Because of the endless and unbreakable march of time, I smile and laugh over a thread like this, but end up getting misty eyed too, because, this is such a strong reminder of the aforementioned march of time. I remember a woman who was our next door neighbor who was in my mind the Beloit, Wisconsin version of Arlene Francis. She even had one of Arlene's books on her book shelf. But I think May might have been way nicer than Arlene, based on the lowdown on Arlene.

R35 I felt the same: way. I didn't get Arlene but adored Betsy Palmer and Bess Myerson.

But both Kitty Carlisle and Peggy Cass had such a "friend of the gays" fag-hag vibe, that even at 8 years old I was able to pick up on it.

I don't care much for Arlene's Christmas tree.

I agree. Arlene’s tree looks almost British in its sloppiness.

At least these ladies always had a candy dish.

Speaking of ilk there was Ilka Chase who appeared on many TV talk shows and quiz games of the early 1950s. Is anyone here old enough to remember her or her quiz show Masquerade Party in which famous people appeared in heavy prosthetic makeup and costumes to puzzle the panel?

But Ilka might be best known to DLers as Bette Davis' sympathetic cousin in the film Now, Voyager. She also originated the role of Sylvia Fowler (Roz Russell) in the original Broadway cast of The Women, which also featured Arlene Francis in its all-female ensemble (to bring this post back to its original subject).

RE: Ilka Chase. There was a clip of her hosting a TV fashion show in the 1950s...unfortunately it's not there anymore. There was another of her shilling Ford cars in 1956. It's gone too.

Loved the fabulous gushy mid-atlantic accent.

*on YouTube

And let's not forget Miss Betty Furness.

I love the idea of the Arlene Francis of Beloit, Wisconsin! Did she preside over the bar at The Cove, sipping frozen daiquiris? Was she married to the owner of the cheese factory?

Ilka Chase also played Julie Andrews' wicked stepmother in the original live broadcast of Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella musical. Now out on DVD so new generations have access to it.

^^ The original version also features Kaye Ballard and Alice Ghostley as the stepsisters. And "Edith" Adams as a young, sassy Fairy Godmother, quite different from Celeste Holm's more traditional (and more saccharine) portrayal in the Lesley Ann Warren version.

Who else is of their ilk?

I am.....er....WAS of their ilk r49!

I'm also of their ilk, R49, although this outfit is a little unusual for me.

I was kind of ilk adjacent. My va-va-voom sort of set me apart.

I was the glamorous television spokeswoman for Revlon and other products available at fine department stores, and I was also Laura Petrie in the pilot for what became "The Dick Van Dyke Show."

r51 - Miss Falkenberg I'm thrilled! About a year ago I was walking down Vine towards Sunset and I noticed your Star was right next to Janet Jackson's. Now I understand why, for example, Larry Hagman's is next to his mother Mary's. We, your fans, need to know what your connection to Janet is!

Sorry. Bad link.

R54, I could not begin to guess. Alphabetical order based on our first names?

Another of their ilk was Jayne Meadows. Essentially a game show panelist famous for being famous.

When Dorothy Kilgallen prematurely passed away, Polly Bergen immediately got on the phone to Mark Goodson and offered her services as a replacement panelist on WML. She had occasionally appeared as a sub for both Arlene and Dorothy in the past.

But Goodson was reluctant to hire a permanent replacement and rotated Polly with Broadway semi-star Phyllis Newman and smart NYC nobody Sue Oakland (who no one could figure out where she came from).

And me!

The Walk of Fame isn't alphabetical Miss Falkenburg. I'm just going to assume Janet is a major fan of yours and insisted on it!

When Jayne Meadows died, the New York Times online obituary did mention her career highlight: playing Alice opposite Jackie Gleason on "The Honeymooners." It did run a correction, but I was a little surprised the error would have been made in the first place.

Janet sounds very sweet, R60. Should I have heard of her?

Do I count?

Unlike many of these ladies, Polly Bergen was actually a very talented singer and actress.

She portrayed torch singer Helen Morgan in a 1950s TV movie that my parents always went on about every time Polly appeared on WML. And she co-starred in a few memorable A list films in the 1960s like Move Over, Darling(with Doris Day and James Garner) and The Caretakers (with you know who).

And, of course, she was the spokeswoman for cosmetics made from turtle oil.

Oh r61, who the hell can tell the difference?!

I recently saw Jinx Falkenberg on a To Tell the Truth rerun and she really was gorgeous.

R58, I think you got it wrong. The actress who shamelessly tried to capitalize on Kilgallen's death was most likely Barbara Feldon, not Polly Bergen, who, if memory serves correctly was never a panelist on WML. Certainly never a panelist on WML after Kilgallen's death. She wasn't even doing To Tell the Truth at that late date. When she left that show years earlier, she never returned.

Not too long ago I watched Drop of a Hat on Studio One. Jayne was quite good, as were Nina Foch and a young Elizabeth Montgomery.

"The Caretakers" is a high-camp hootenanny, and not only for the presence of Joan Crawford. Polly's mental breakdown in a movie theater while watching a newsreel must be seen to be believed. The gestures and facial expressions made me think Joan must have provided coaching on the set. But yes, Polly was quite talented. I saw her in the 2000 Roundabout revival of "Follies." Her "I'm Still Here" was a definite high point in a rather lackluster production.

The complete Helen Morgan Story with Polly......

Polly Bergen was not just the spokeswoman for the Oil of the Turtle cosmetics (try selling those today), it was her company. Almost as campy as the Leona Helmsley ads in the Times magazine, around the same time, were ads featuring Polly Bergen, in her role as turtle oil executive, leaning against a desk saying, "I'm not only an actress. I like to think of myself as a sharp businesswoman, too."

I think Polly was only a Mystery Guest on WML, but she did have panel experience on To Tell the Truth.

And Polly's "I'm Still Here." (It was 2001, not 2000.)

"You'll always feel secure decorating your tree with Doubl-Glo Icicles. Why? Because they're ultra light and that's important. Take it from me, Arlene Francis. I've been sued for reckless endangerment and Doubl-Glo icicles are so lightweight that if they flew out your apartment window they couldn't possibly kill a fly, let alone a tourist from Lansing."

r65

Jayne can speak Chinese. Audrey said she forgot how.

I am loving this thread. So many good memories of women whose ilk just no longer exist.

Fun Fact: My model mother was roommates with Jinx for a year in NYC.

I think we should include Joan Fontaine as part of the ilk.

By the 1960s she was a frequent panelist on all the game shows. And she certainly had the grand dame demeanor and theatrical speaking voice required of these ladies.

Joan replacing Kitty on "To Tell the Truth". (Great segment with Baby Jane Holzer.)

Also r77, by that time she had legitimately been in the legitimate theatre so she had that legitimacy to bring to the game show format.

I think we can include Helen O'Connell among Arlene's ilk. Famous as a big band singer, of course, but she was frequently on television as a commercial spokeswoman in the '50s and '60s. I remember her introducing the commercials for various televised beauty pageants.

I've told this story on DL before. I saw Julia Meade when she was touring back in the 70's in Move Over, Mrs. Markham. She signed my program and I told her I wished I had brought a Chinet plate for her to sign. Thank God looks can't kill.....

IMHO Helen O'Connell was more down to earth and reserved compared to the others. And didn't have the required background in theatre or film. There was nothing grand about her. I wouldn't include Polly Bergen either.

Helen O'Connell would be of the Dorothy Collins ilk.

We shouldn't forget Barbara Britton, spokesperson for Revlon and star of Mr. and Mrs. North. She also appeared in a very short-lived Bway play, Me and Thee, with that timeless thespian, Durward Kirby.

Seems like Arlene would do anything for a buck.

For the really elder Eldergays here, do you remember a couple of afternoon talk shows from the early 60s? Both were definitely early forerunners of The View.

The first one, which is a bit obscure, was called something like LEAVE IT TO THE GIRLS and was hosted by a woman named Maggi (no e!) McNellis. She was very much of the Arlene ilk, gracious but ever so slightly raunchy, though I've forgotten if she had other talents. There would be a rotating weekly female panel of middle-aged semi celebrities like singer Carmel Quinn and WML's Sue Oakland who would discuss hot topics with a daily female celebrity guest.

The second show most here will remember and I'm surprised it hasn't come up yet: GIRL TALK with Virginia Graham. Like the other ladies mentioned above, Virginia was EXTREMELY grand, sported an iconic bleached and sprayed bouffant hairdo, and took no guff from her guests, who were usually other similar non-talented celebrities, including some hapless males. She held onto a single long-stemmed red rose during the program as a means, I guess, of softening her image.

I loved getting a cold so I could stay home from school to watch these shows. It must have been the biggest sign of my oncoming gayness though I'm not sure it didn't go over my mother's head as she had no interest in watching these silly shows.

Dorothy Kilgallen was a pioneer as a woman reporter. She was highly respected. She questions contestants like a prosecutor. Her diction was flawless. Her death was sudden and mysterious. Apparently, she was on the verge of publishing a story that would have been huge regarding the Kennedy assassination. Sinatra had a feud going with her and she was a defense witness for Lenny Bruce. She had enemies who were powerful.

r83

Seems like she did

r85

She was a junkie and a booze hag. You can see on various episodes she was clearly high and/or drunk.

R87...She had substance abuse problems. An easy way to explain away her death, or even stage it. I watch a lot of those What's My Line episodes and I have yet to see her under the influence. At least, no more than the others on the panel.

We didn't forget Barbara Britton, R82. The same photo of her appeared at 55.

^^At R55.

There is definitely one famous moment of Dorothy struggling on camera as she introduced Bennett Cerf, or whoever was sitting next to her.

She can't get her words out and it's hard to discern if she is stifling a sneeze or something much worse. I'm sure someone here can find a clip of this. It's the "evidence" often used to prove Dorothy had drug issues.

I also remember watching "Girl Talk" and Virginia Graham's bouffant when I got to stay home from school. "Girl Talk" was very much a precursor to "The View." Later, Virginia even appeared on the legitimate stage, taking over Patsy Kelly's role as the mother in the 1974 Broadway production of "Irene."

Show them how a STAR does it Joan!

Chin held high, eyes gazing upward (never directly at the camera.

And to avoid wrinkles, keep the smile contained to one of just slight amusement.

I love you, 93.

I knew Barbara Britton's son in college. Quite an oddball.

Also add the utter fearlessness at going sleeveless r93!

I have absolutely no memory of Maggi McNellis r84. She appears to have been somewhat glamorous and should her life be of sufficient event to bring to the screen (big or small) I might be interested in portraying her.

Jesus H Christ, I watched every WML episode on YouTube and you can clearly see that around 1960 she begin to have issues. After the Kennedys were inaugurated, she was clearly inebriated in some episodes and I vividly recall that episode where she stall out, though it may have been a mini-stroke rather than drunkenness.

She had fits of giggles, memory issues and was clearly not the same woman she was up till 1959.

How about us? We were definitely adjacent. We had our own morning radio show broadcast from our home, just like Dorothy and her closeted hubby Dick, and we were both regular guest panelists on the Goodson/Todman shows. And movies! And TV! And the *legitimate* stage!

Peter Lind Hayes and Mary Healy starred in "The 5,000 Fingers of Dr. T." (1954), one of the most bizarre fantasy movies ever made. The screenplay was by Dr. Seuss, and Hans Conreid plays the clearly gay villain of the title. There are dream sequences that look like an extended acid trip. The child star of the movie is Tommy Rettig, Lassie's original owner on the TV series. I saw scenes from it on TV screens at a New York gay bar and thought I was hallucinating.

Peter and Mary were married for 58 years, until his death in 1998. Mary Healy died in 2015 at 96.

The above poster is correct - it was Barbara Feldon's husband who called Mark Goodson on the day after Dorothy K. died and said his wife would be perfect as a replacement for DK. Goodson told him it was "too soon".

Polly Bergen was always hilarious on TTTT.....I remember one night three guys came on claiming to to a famous hairstylist....she asked them about setting pin curls....before or after shampooing the hair.....and a couple of other basic questions - they couldn't answer.... When it came time to vote, she said: "I'm not voting for any of them, I don't think a one of them has ever had his hand's in a woman's wet hair in his life!"

Here it is R91, starting at 1:49. Take note, too, R88.

Helen O'Connell was annoying. She'd go on talk shows and whine about the current state of show business and music. Clearly, she was stuck in a time and idiom. Merv Griffin often had her as a guest. She was neither as trailblazing as Kilgallen or as sparkling as or classy as Arlene. Definitely not part of their ilk. Now, Phyllis Newman, there's someone who was of the ilk, although a bit younger (and not dead , yet). Polly Bergen always struck me as pretty dyke-y.

Kitty Carlisle -- wearing black -- was the first fill-in for Kilgallen after her murder, er, passing. In the end, there was no permanent replacement, just as there had been none for Fred Allen, although Phyllis Newman and Suzy Knickerbocker both got extended guest runs that many felt were tryouts.

Martin Gable was the most frequent guest panelist over the years, with over 100 appearances.

Peggy Cass was always shouting even when she didn't mean to be. Thank God Kitty classed it up on TTTT to even out Peg.

A while ago, on Buzzr, I saw another "To Tell the Truth" episode in which the panelists had to guess which of three guys was the "top men's hair stylist" of the day. (No Polly on this one; Kitty and Peggy were on the panel.) The stylist was Jay Sebring, about six years away from being murdered by the Manson gang.

Alrene Francis was a goddess. Oh, for dinner and drinks with her some Sunday evening in 1956 after the show.

Why did she always wear that heart necklace in her mid to later years? Whenever I think of Arlene Francis, I think of her heart necklace.

R84, I too remember "Girl Talk," as my Mom had that show on TV in the background, but I never paid attention to it, alas.

R82 timeless thespian HOMER Durward Kirby!

The heart necklace had been a gift from her husband Martin Gabel, r109. She treasured it as much as she had adored him. In her later years it was stolen in a robbery and it crushed her. She had a replacement made but it wasn't the same for her.

I saw that, too, R107. I noticed also that one of the imposters was acting quite effeminate to fit the stereotype of a male hairdresser in the early 1960s

A mugger grabbed the heart necklace when Arlene was getting out of a taxi in 1988.

The joke on TO TELL THE TRUTH was that Kitty hardly classed anything up. Her ego, know-it-all open-mouthed grimace-smile, her own loudness and her need to wear clothing better suited to a Follies calendar-girl number did offer a contrast to Peggy's tugboat-honk and middle-class scatterbrain act, but it wasn't a contrast in class. Kitty "Husband's Coattails" Carlisle was, indeed, wonderful, and so was Peggy Cass, but neither had a tenth of the calm, canny wit and innate New York-style class that Arlene Francis had.

A real New Yorker of classical distinction is set on the model of Nora Charles - bright, plays with being dim when it suits her, looks great, is detached and kind but knows the score, and is equally comfortable at a Met Gala (wearing her own jewelry and being welcomed by the chairs by her first name) as at a prize fight or in a club on the edges of the city.

And I doubt any of those wonderful women are left.

R115 nailed it.

Kitty had Class!

With a Capital K!

When I was four years old I was a guest on I've Got A Secret ... The producers wanted a variation on the theme and I was a cute kid ... whose godfather was one of the panelists... ie: that was my secret... Not that I could have had much of anything else, secret-wise, given my age... unless I was someone's illegitimate kid....

Apparently I spent most of the time giggling, and then crying and demanding my father come out on the set... which he did. The audience loved it all.

They gave me $5, which my parents promptly spent on booze,

Who was your godfather, R119? What year was this?

Peggy Cass was the only one with a Tony Award.

That woman was my sponge r121!

From 1989, an episode of AMC's very sad attempt at a game show, "The Movie Masters." The panelists were Kitty Carlisle, Peggy Cass and theater critic Clive Barnes. It was the last game show to be hosted by Gene Rayburn. Peggy seemed annoyed by most of the questions ("I told you I don't know that movie!"), Kitty, looking remarkably unchanged since her "To Tell the Truth" days, seemed generally confused, and Clive Barnes' answer to most every question was "Um, um, um . . . I don't know." I remember watching this when it was new in 1989 and becoming rather depressed by thoughts of the inexorable march of time.

[quote]Peter and Mary were married for 58 years, until his death in 1998. Mary Healy died in 2015 at 96.

So according Datalounge, that means he was gay-- right?

How many of those broads could have sung Hello Dolly in Chinese?

You can argue beautiful women to your heart's content, but using this "ilk" I would have to add my vote to Bess Myerson. Standing at the top of the stairs. Her back to the camera, her face to it, modeling a full length mink coat. Bess is up there with Hedy in my book.

Bess was divine!

Bess was a mess. As was Mama.

Steve always called Jayne a great actress, but there is scant evidence of that.

Arlene and her peer Kitty Carlisle were both absolutely USELESS. Like the Kardashians with manners. But just as useless.

What about my goddamned stint on WHAT'S MY LINE, you amnesiac boozers? July 1957. Hotter than hell in that oven they called a studio theatre. It was at the Mansfield. Smelled like mildew. Now it's the Atkinson. You ought to know that if you're the theater queens you pretend to be. I filled in for Dolly Mae while she had that chin prosthesis adjusted.

Sure, I slept through the first "guest" (a fat ugly woman who was the last "ice man" in Yonkers) and I refused to ask the second one a question because he said I gave his uncle the clap at a Hollywood Canteen visit. I knew it was Vera Hruba Halston. She gave it to everyone.

But I mailed the Mystery Guest and identified Ernest Borgnine without asking a question just by the smell wafting our way. Beer and salami and six-day-old boxers on a guy to lazy to wipe himself.

I did give Bennett a hand job during the last guessum. I thought he'd publish my book on beauty tips out of gratitude. I had to tell Daly I was down looking for my earring during my turn because Cerf kept pushing my head into his lap. And all HE did was sound even more like Elmer Fudd asking, "Have you evew wivved in Wochester?" as he spritzed.

Arlene passed her hanky down to me saying, "Keep it," and then guessed the line (Fred Allen's embalmer).

The Golden Age of Television. It's still showering us, ain't it?

Arlene gets....

I agree that Polly Bergen pinged to high heaven. I would bet the farm she was a (possibly)closeted lez.

Jinx Falkenberg wanted to you to heat your home with gas.

Peter and Mary were HIDEOUS. Cheesy, ego-driven, dull and soooo fucking precious while pretending to be brilliant. UGH.

I "ilked" my way into their company artistically!

Any time Jayne and Audrey were shown together, it was like Audrey was a better Marcia and Jayne was Jan as a narcissistic prison matron wearing lipstick for the first time.

Audrey was wonderful. Jayne was wonderless.

Of course, Jayne was Steve's second-biggest fan. After himself, that is.

Arlene was a Nazi?

Bess Myerson - who would have ever thought watching her as this absolutely elegant, intelligent and refined beauty on I've Got a Secret that she was such a complicated (and I'm guessing unhappy) woman?

Post IGAS, I found her absolutely fascinating and I wish someone had written a really fabulous and discerning biography of her. Or was there one? Are there any photos of her after she left NYC in disgrace? She really seemed to disappear and was totally out of the news until she died a few years ago.

R139, one factor in her "disappearance" was the dementia she suffered at the end of her life.

I knew George Gershwin. Top that, ilk!

r138

No, Arlene was obviously working undercover against the Germans.

Arlene was the best because she never took herself or anyone else too seriously. I mean you should see the looks Dorothy gave the "guest panelist" if he decided to go for the joke and get a "no" instead of asking a real question. She clearly wanted to win.

And that brings up even a more disturbing point, she always sided with the guest. Many times she pointed out that John had not flipped the card or that John Daly's replacement should just give the guest all the money, cause they got it without any "no" answers and so forth. She wanted the guest to get all the money BUT she had a neurotic need to win.

Clearly Dorothy could care less about the money and saving it for the show, she was driving by one factor, to WIN, WIN and WIN.

Betty White was an occasional Goodson/Todman guest panelist and today is her 96th birthday. Happy birthday Betty!. I only know this because the overnight ABC news program just did a short feature to celebrate her birthday. 75 years in The Show Biz!

Dearest Kitty at r141.

Do you really want me to top your knowing George Gershwin?

OK.

My first partner fucked your husband.

And I saw you on Broadway in the early 1980s when you replaced Dina Merrill in that fabulous revival of Rodgers' and Hart's On Your Toes. You were great playing a grand dame NYC pratroness of the arts. What a stretch.

Brilliant, r131.

Just in case any of you film historians (ahem) don't know it, R138's gif is from ONE, TWO, THREE, and Miss Francis is speaking to her husband, the Coca Cola executive "Mac" MacNamara, played by James Cagney.

Darling Horst Buchholz playing a Commie and trying to do comedy is fun.

You have the absolute temerity to not mention ME r148? Me, who is justly deserving of my very OWN thread! Well, me and the others of MY....ilk....that being early to mid-60's starlets. Anyway, I SPARKLED in that film.

Goodson/Todman knew better than anyone that Dorothy was simply irreplaceable. There was no one like her.

Phyllis Newman was cute back then but that was about it. Sue Oakland was smart and beautiful but who the fuck was she? I guess Aileen (Suzy Knickerbocker) Mehle came closest to Dorothy.

I don't remember Sue Oakland r150. She looks bitchy.......

Actually, no. Sue wasn't bitchy at all. She gave off more of an elegant and intelligent Bess Myserson vibe, r151.

Suzy K seemed to be a horror based on her appearances on WML.

I could of been one of ilk's Greats! Fuck Westinghouse...fuck them in the ass!!!

I may have told this story before here, but quite some years ago Kitty and a male friend of ours came to my apartment for drinks. After, we were to go out to dinner. I was waiting for them in the lobby, and when she arrived, on her cane and smiling, as always, as if to a crowd of well-wishers, she really did seem a treat. Very grand, no question.

Upstairs, I popped open a bottle of champagne and, as we drank, put on a few sides of Moss Hart's Air Force show, Winged Victory, on the Victrola. Somehow, Kitty had forgotten the album even existed. It's actually just a few choruses, no real show tunes, and it's on CD nowadays anyway, so big deal. Then we went to dinner. Lots of fun; she was a very nice person, and she knew everyone, though by this time of her life she confused one memory with another, and a story about My Fair Lady would magically slide into Camelot without so much as a comma.

The next day, the doorman commented on how grand my guest was. Is she famous? he asked--because she did rather seem so. I gave her name; it meant nothing to him. I forgot completely about her game show, and mentioned what a great operetta singer she was. No response. I kept trying with little professional blurbs like that, and then I said, You know the Marx Brothers movie A Night at the Opera? Remember the two boring kids who keep bursting into song, though you never want them to?

Yes, he remembered them

I said, She was the girl.

And he broke into a wide smile and said, Boy! She really was famous!

Dorothy was irreplaceable precisely as one poster wrote, the took the game seriously. No one else did. I can't think of any other panelist who wanted to win as much, perhaps there was one. But looking at the smug satisfaction of Dorothy for guessing correctly was a hoot, and no one ever was found to do that, so she couldn't have been replaced unless you had a panelist who also possessed that.

[102], Polly Bergen could be quite funny on "To Tell the Truth," but, watching the show on Buzzr, I find that she tries a little too hard to be the center of attention. She was the sort of celebrity my mother would have said was "too much of a show-off," something that never seemed true of Arlene and her ilk.

Johnny Carson was frequently on the panel around the same time as Polly, and he comes off as fairly insufferable. Very condescending to the contestants.

R120 -- My godfather was Henry Morgan, the male equivalent of these women.... He and Bill Cullen and Orson Bean and a few others made a good living off these shows. I doubt they did much else. Henry was quite funny, but when he was drunk, which was most of the day, he could get mean. They all could. Man, these people drank. And they drank. And they drank.

I can smell their highballs from here r158.

Jinx Falkenburg’s son was on an episode of Hoarders. His Upper East Side apartment was so full of junk he had to enter and exit through the fire escape.

I think Arlene was even more useless than Susan Richardson!!!

If that’s possible...

Thanks, R158. What year was that? Is the show available on YouTube?

How was Henry Morgan your godfather R158?

R163 -- how is anyone a godfather? He was close friends with my parents.

Until all the booze got in the way...

Show must have been in 1956 or so... I have no idea if it was taped, would love to see it. I never got a chance to.

Most of those shows are available on YouTube.

Dorothy, for chrissakes get your shit together!!!

Good heavens, R145 and R146! We simply must do lunch soon! And the department store escalators with all the sales girls waving as we pass!

R155, simply delightful post; won't you be a love and join Bennett, Arlene and myself after the show for drinks at Arlene's. We'll dish the dirt on Peggy, Dorothy and Soupy!

Poor Dorothy at 1:55... skin and bones and she can't say "Fort Lauderdale" correctly.

I'll have what she's having......

Except that Bill Cullen must have made fortune, because he hosted LOTS of these shows. Henry was almost always a panelist.

Everybody loved Suzy!

Suzy Knickerbocker could be EXTREMELY condescending as a panelist.

There's a funny moment when she guesses young (and kind of hot) Hugh Hefner as a mystery guest but visibly winces and audibly groans at his revealed presence. Look it up! She clearly wasn't a fan.

And then there's the time that her son, who was in the military, appeared as a mystery guest. She didn't seem terribly well-acquainted with him.

Did Kitty and Peggy not get along? There sometimes seems to be a certain tension there but I don't know if I'm just inventing it in my mind.

Henry's Godson, have you ever seen that WML moment when Henry is unforgivably rude (or delightfully on point, depending on your point of view), shutting Bennett Cerf down on one of his typically long-winded intros of John Charles Daly? You could cut the tension with a knife.....poor Arlene in the middle of it!

I think it's among the clips at r168 of "Strange Moments of WML"

R173, I heard a story once about Kitty and Peggy being backstage ready to do a taping of "To Tell the Truth." Kitty was wearing one of her typical outfits, something that probably looked like a ball gown from "La Traviata," and Peggy had on her customary sweater and skirt. Peggy turned to Kitty and asked, "Are we going to the same party?"

[quote]I knew George Gershwin. Top that, ilk!

"Knew" or "blew" Kitty, you whore!

[quote]Dorothy was irreplaceable precisely as one poster wrote, the took the game seriously. No one else did. I can't think of any other panelist who wanted to win as much, perhaps there was one. But looking at the smug satisfaction of Dorothy for guessing correctly was a hoot, and no one ever was found to do that, so she couldn't have been replaced unless you had a panelist who also possessed that.

Dorothy was desperate to win because the producers promised to fund her chin implant if she achieved certain goals.

R131 has to be a pro. Perfect.

Horst Buchholz was bi.

Henry Morgan was well known to be a nasty SOB.

Jinx was no actress, but she really was an eyeful.

I want Arlene's "No Time For Cooking" book from 1961.

The five year old in R182's link has good taste!

Henry Morgan really is sort of rude in that clip, but Bennett Cerf was a bore-and-a-half. I don't understand his popularity (if he really was popular in the first place; how would we know?) as a panelist. The two women were so much more vital and interesting.

Maybe they just kept him on for his dependable questions about "Do you have a picture currently playing on Broadway?," etc., as most of the mystery guests were in show business.

Anyway, wasn't Morgan's shtick that he was a low-key curmudgeon? If you have him on, that's what he's bound to do.

Henry Morgan misjudged his appeal with that performance. Gil Fates (producer) said that it was such a turn-off that they never had him back on the regular show. It was boorish, inexcusable behavior and none of the other contestants or Daly could stand the sight of him after that. Cerf was a pompous and dull person, but he was polite, other than leering at every young woman who entered the state.

He did return for the syndicated show and appeared on other Goodson-Todman shows.

Although Bennett's appeal nowadays is perplexing, back in the 1950s he was considered the epitome of Manhattan sophistication and wit and besides being the highly respected publisher of Random House books, he was the author of several collections of humor and puns. He was the man who first published in America the highly controversial Ulysses by James Joyce, as well as scores of commercially popular best-sellers and The Modern Library editions of classics which were seen in all educated and prosperous homes.

Bennett's first wife was actress Sylvia Sidney, though their marriage in the 1930s was brief. Oddly enough, he was a one of Frank Sinatra's best friends and often hung out with Frank and the Rat Pack when they were socializing in NYC.

Spot on, r186. He was the Everyman's idea of an intellectual. You can tell by how often he was away from the show on lecture tours around the country, and as you say he had a profound impact on reading tastes in those days.

There is footage of an oral history of the show, and he says that he adored the public attention WML brought to him. Wonder how much they were paid each week.

I love watching the sexism of the show: Horny Cerf leers at every attractive woman, and they were frequently engaging women whose occupations were Doctor or Judge or Stockbroker, assuming that they were such rare birds in those professions that they would stump the panel. And they often did.

Bennett and Sylvia.......

Mrs. Cerf, who, widowed from Bennett, married former NYC Mayor Robert Wagner, was a first cousin of Ginger Rogers.

Oh! And Sylvia and Ginger BOTH played Mame Dennis Burnside on stage (albeit in different incarnations).

I love the fact that of all the TV shows of the 1960s, the two with the most fanatic fans are "Star Trek" and oddly enough, "What's My Line".

The only film I’ve ever seen Arlene in was a supporting role in some fluffy Doris Day comedy. What else did she do other than be a game show panelist.

Bill Cullen had polio as a child and had difficulty walking.

You'll notice on "I've Got a Secret" that the camera always cut away from Bill Cullen whenever he was required to walk anywhere.

The "What's My Line" panel's tribute to Dorothy. Steve Allen was also sitting in when the panel said its on-air goodbyes to Fred Allen.

Glaring now is how often Bennett referred to women, including Arlene and Dorothy, as "girls" and I'm sure he intended it as the highest compliment. He was clearly befuddled by women's liberation, teenagers and their taste in music and women's fashions that did not show off the figure, all evident from his years as a panelist. His oral history, found on youtube, and which is mostly about his years on WML, is fascinating. He sounds far more sober and serious than he ever did on TV, but maybe that's grouchy old age creeping in.

He was obviously an attention whore. He said that his marriage to Sylvia Sidney quickly broke up because she would (of course!) get all the attention when they were out in public. And this was before he was generally known by America through WML.

I always wanted to drive out to Mt. KIsco, where he, and eventually Arlene and Martin, had a famous estate. It sounded very glamorous!

r192 That was "The Thrill of It All," where she played the world's oldest pregnant woman.

I think Arlene's only other film roles besides The Thrill of It All, were the Billy Wilder comedy One, Two, Three (which she supposedly won when she heard Wilder was looking for "an Arlene Francis type") and the 1930s horror film Murders in the Rue Morgue early in her career, in which she played a victim.

She was in several Broadway plays over many decades, but rarely if ever in hits. She also toured the country in roles she didn't originate on Broadway but could usually make it back for WML shoots on Sunday nights (which were always nights off in the theater back then ---- and what allowed Broadway stars to appear on WML, as well).

R192 is too stupid to use Google or go to IMDB, or consult this thread, which describes some of her work.

Idiots are everywhere. One wonders, though, why one would squat herself down on this thread, of all threads, and play the passive "gimme gimme" game.

Makes me wish R192 played the Woman of the Streets in 1932's MURDERS IN THE RUE MORGUE, rather than Arlene.

R198 is a classic enabler.

We hope her partner isn't a drunk. If so, we hope she goes to Al-Anon to learn how not to feed the creeps.

Five down, five to you, Dorothy.

But first, a word from Stopette.

WML fan, but much prefer the original To Tell the Truth.

I love Bennett Cerf's house in Mt. Kisco, White Columns. It looks very comfortable.

I liked both, but I especially enjoyed the original "To Tell the Truth" because you could play along and try to guess who the real one was.

Bennett's townhome in NYC is nice too but the current decorations are horrendous.

The Mt. KIsco home is gorgeous! And quite the bargain at $1,800,000!!

Stopette r202.....please...just...Stopette! I flipped past BUZZR earlier and something called The Name's the Same. Hosted by Robert Q. Lewis. Had a VERY youthful Bill Cullen and some dame I wasn't familiar with. Miss Joan Alexander. I believe she was some sort of "actress".....

Miss Alexander apparently had her good sides and...not so good sides where the camera was involved. Apparently she was Della Street in the radio Perry Mason.

I love this thread. I'm considered an elder, but so many of my elders are here, and I wish I could hug you all.

Miss Alexander in two clips from The Name's the Same.

R208, Stopette is a lotion spray!

But you don't spray it r212. You POOF it.

Stopette was not an aerosol.

On one episode of "What's My Line?,", Dr. Jules Montenier, the inventor of Stopette (he appeared in the commercials until he sold the company to Helene Curtis), was the mystery guest. (He used to be identified as the "famous cosmetic chemist" in the show's opening segment.) He was seen seated at the desk during his entire segment because he had had a leg amputated after a car crash that killed his wife.

Who could forget you, Katy at R214?

Katy is oddly identified on screen in that clip as "Hay Winters."

My god, this is fun. Thank you all.

I'm a TUSSY gal myself!

It always seems to come back to TUSSY r219.......

Yes, R219, but have you tried new Ban spray? It's groovy!

Best DL thread since 1996.

sad to say I remember all these products/commercials and all the personalities, too. plus something called Pantomime Quiz (something like charades), which may have been a summer replacement in the late 50s; I think Ilka Chase may have been one of the celebrity players. Anyone else remember this?

Pantomime Quiz.....

Let's put exercising with Debbie in the morning number one on our To-Do lists!

Oh I loved Pantomime Quiz!!!

It was the first place I ever saw Beverly Garland. She was so hilarious and bawdy on it and just so gloomy and serious in all of her other TV roles.

Thanks, 224--that's marvelous, esp. Carol. Not sure I recognized anyone else--Orson Bean, maybe?

The iconic Miss Garland managed to find glamour even in her lady cop role in DECOY r226.

Debbie Drake always seemed like chopped liver compared with Cleveland's Paige Palmer, who lived to a ripe old age of 93. Debbie (Velma Louise to her white trash family) seems to have fallen off the face of the earth w/o disclosing her birth date.

Pantomime Quiz episode with DL favorite Elaine Stritch! The show eventually morphed into Stump The Stars.

Pantomime Quiz had sort of the same vibe as WML but it was the LA version of sophistication and raunchy wit and with a younger crowd.

I loved all the dresses the ladies wore. They must have been severely girdled into them.....there was never any shifting of bodily parts with all that movement.

Was there an unbelievably realistic Paige doll r229? Was there?! Huh, didn't think so.

Bennett often expressed his loathing for rock n roll and "sack dresses". On one episode both the "girls" wore them and he went apoplectic.

Anyone remember Masquerade Party? I LOVED that one. Guest celebrities under tons of rubber and makeup trying to fool the panel.

Masquerade Party.....

I had no idea who Monica Lewis was.....

Miss Monica has a Gogi Grant boo-hoo in her voice.

R88 there were times when Dorothy could barely speak. There are a spate of shows circa 1961 where she's slurring and cotton mouthed. Then she's gone for several months. She returns looking and sounding pretty fresh.

Well, it appears Miss Monica was still swingin' at 87!

That was Dorothy Jarnac. Isn't she wonderful!

Jeez, even the commercials were like Broadway Shows!

These great ladies remind me of my dear, late grandma. She died in 1981 at age 57 when I was 11. Really caused havoc in our family, as my mother took it very bad. As did I, but no one really noticed.

My grandfather was well to do, so they belonged to a country club. She loved to dress up and go to Broadway shows. She was a lady who lunched. Elegant. Spoke with that mid Atlantic accent.

I've considered the possibility that she's the reason I turned out gay. 36 years later, I miss her so much.

R239, Often, as a child, I would practice my Stopette interpretive dance in front of my bedroom mirror.

One of Monica Lewis's claims to fame was that she provided the voice of Chiquita Banana.

I

AM

ILKA CHASE

Echoing what others have already said: This is such a wonderful thread.

Well it appears she really owned it r243.

I can no longer remember why I thought Ilka Chase was the epitome of sophistication and wittiness, but I did. Thanks for the pic!

Well r247, she seemed to entertain at home in a lighthearted manner.

Ilka Chase as Cinderella's stepmother, with Kaye Ballard and Alice Ghostley as her daughters.

r240 You have no idea.

two of my favorite clips!

R250

Did you all recognize DAVE WILLOCK who played Ann Miller's husband in the commercial ?

Willock is probably better remembered for having played the father of Blanche & Baby Jane Hudson in the 1962 classic WHATEVER HAPPENED TO BABY JANE ?

recognized him, but couldn't have identified him.

I was unemployed in the Summer of 2004 and started watching What's My Line? on GSN. It was right at the start of the cycle, so over 725+ days I watched the entire run, in order.

I ADORE the manners. When a mystery guest was finished with the game, they'd greet the panel. If it was a man, everyone remained seated to greet the guest. If it was a woman, the men on the panel would stand up, and the women remained seated. If it was a well respected elder woman guest, like when Eleanor Roosevelt was on, the whole panel stood.

The references to historical events are fascinating to see. Both Dorothy and Arlene (I think) traveled to go to Queen Elizabeth's coronation in 1953, and talked about it on air. Bennett Cerf makes reference to the Army McCarthy hearings, careful not to show disapproval (though I'm sure he did dissapprove.)

The advent of rock and roll is interesting to experience with the show. Dorothy, and to a lesser extent the others, are all disgusted and disdainful of it. You can see they think it's a passing fad, at first. Later the panel seems to become resigned to it. And even somewhat embrace it, talking about taking lessons on how to do the Twist. By the time the Beatles come around on 1964, they seem to have accepted it. Dorothy though, remained disdainful.

Watching the panel age was fascinating. When the show starts in 1950, John Daly is a youthful 36. He's buoyant, and charming, and smiling. In the last season, Daly is 53. He'd been through a hard divorce, the deaths of two panelists, and the JFK assassination. He no longer smiled too often. He seemed tired, and like life had knocked the stuffing out of him. Whereas Arlene gets better over time. More wise, more grand- she was better older. Poor Dorothy starts off looking like Julie Andrews. She declines FAST. As the show goes on her looks deteriorated, I think because of booze and dolls.

Is this anything like Anne Sexton and Her Kind?

I can remember being fascinated by Masquerade Party as a little kid but very creeped out by the prosthetic makeup and bad wigs of the celebrity guests. They all looked like grotesque life-size versions of ventriloquist dummies and were only creepier when their identity was revealed and they began peeling off their fake skin and hair which seemed to come off in clumps with pieces of fake skin still hanging off their faces.

I wish there were more clips online.

When the hell did Dorothy Kilgallen EVER resemble Julie Andrews??

Oddly enough, she apparently always believed her celebrity look-alike was Sophia Loren. I can SORT OF see it if you look at early photos of Sophia before she had her chin implant.

r254, why was Daly's divorce "hard"?

I remember a guest who made Beatles wigs. The panel reacted to idea with such disgust, and they were amazed/appalled when the man reported how many he had sold.

Oh Lord, Dorothy was even appalled by the man who invented the hula hoop.

As Dorothy grew older and the 1950s wore on she became obsessed with wiglets that topped her bouffant hairstyles. I wonder if she thought they forced audience eyes upward and distracted from her lack of a chin?

Arlene the killer

Wonder if Arlene's car accident-related concussion factored into her later Alzheimer's.

I watched Masquerade Party and had the same reaction as the poster above. Paulette Goddard - I had no idea who she was - was dressed as a man.....and when she started taking off her makeup and wig, it was as if she was disintegrating before our eyes.....

I had a love/hate relationship with WML.....because watching it meant it was Sunday night and back to school tomorrow......but I loved seeing the panel and the mystery guests. I was always disappointed when it was a politician or someone from Broadway that I had never heard of.....

I had a huge gayling's crush on Betsy Palmer as a kid watching her on I've Got a Sewcret.

Imagine my happiness when I got to work with her on a regional theater production in the 1980s! She did not disappoint! Lovely, sincere lady and utmost professional. When the show's run ended she gifted me with a beautiful painted wooden apple which she called a Barrymore Apple. I'd never heard of that tradition before but giving red apples as an opening night gift apparently went back to John Drew Barrymore who started it.

I was sad to hear of her passing a few years ago. In her last interviews that I've found online she still was quite pretty and smart and had retained a great sense of herself.

Betsy Palmer took the part in Friday the 13th solely because her Mercedes had died and she needed money to buy a new car. She bought a Volkswagen Scirocco.

One New Year's Eve on I've Got a Secret - Betsy Palmer and her leading man from South Pacific which she was doing somewhere, did the Soliloquies and she was great. Also loved her in QUEEN BEE with Joan Crawford. Betsy was from Indiana and also worked with James Dean when they were both doing early television in New York.

A particularly memorable episode of I've Got a Secret for me and Betsy fans was the night they brought on a man whose secret was that he was a hairdresser who would be cutting off Betsy's long hair so that she could more easily "Wash That Man Right Outta Her Hair" the first time she played Nellie Forbush in South Pacific, which I think was either a tour or at NY's City Center

I remember a cocktail party at our house where Henry Morgan and Betsy Palmer both came. He was drunk as usual, and incredibly funny, even to someone as young as me. Betsy was very gracious and kept complimenting the house, the food, and everything else. But she seemed a little stiff. Maybe that's because everyone else was drunk. She wasn't. My parents let me carry the empty martini glasses back to the kitchen, so I got to gobble down all the alcohol-soaked olives. Few people ate them. I think most of these people had the same diet as Patsy Stone. No solid food in years.

Lots of fast talk, shrieking laughter, and probably a lot of terrible hangovers afterward. I often didn't see my parents on weekend mornings.

A very Nellie Betsy......

More Nellie....

I think Betsy toured in "South Pacific." She was in the original casts of several Broadway shows, but all had short runs. She did, however, replace Lauren Bacall in "Cactus Flower" and Ellen Burstyn in "Same Time Next Year." And at one point, she replaced Virginia Graham as the host of "Girl Talk." (Virginia and her bouffant can be seen at R92 with La Crawford.)

Betsy Palmer was the poor man's Janis Paige.

Did someone mention "South Pacific"?

Janis had a much more "aggressive" vibe than Betsy, if you catch my drift.

Poor Betsy has a wardrobe malfunction.

Zip to 2:55

The Arlene dumbbell story was big news. It certainly reached my little ears in Michigan and was much discussed by my mother.

Yes, Doris, Janis seems all wrong for Nellie Forbush. But I'm sure tons of stars who played those parts in stock, bus and truck tours, City Center short runs, etc., were not comfortably cast.

Don't know enough about Betsy to comment on her suitability. She certainly looks more suitable than Janis in the photos, even if a trifle too "glamour girl."

I had a close older friend, unfortunately gone now, who was nuts about South Pacific. He not only saw every single lady who played Nellie here in New York, but would plan his vacations around major regional/stock productions and national tours.

He would rave about Palmer and described her as the best person he ever saw in the role.

There's no accounting for taste, I guess.

r275 Nothing compared to Garry's wardrobe malfunction.

Explaining Garry Moore's HUGE popularity for 2 decades on 3 long-running TV programs is utterly impossible today.

Bennett Cerf took some flack for shilling Famous Writers School. The "school" was advertised in magazines and newspapers. Suckers were told to send a sample of their work to the FWS and their experts would tell them if they had talent; of course they all did. Then for a fee FWS would coach the aspiring writers.

Cerf was honest about his shilling. He said he loved the attention. And no doubt a nice piece of the action.

It was a bit nastier than that though, r262. The Famous Writers School was shown to be a scam along the lines of Trump University and Cerf, who had founded the "School," had to admit complicity with a very unfortunate and public stain on his reputation. It was a multi-million dollar fraud which fell apart when Jessica Mitford wrote a scathing expose in The Atlantic Monthly and several states' Attorney Generals brought suit.

I must say, even though I am most certainly eldergay by datalounge standards, and do, I think, remember watching WML and IGAS, these two especially, I am so impressed with the specificity of some of those who are remembering. So, kudos... and kudos to this lovely and charming thread. The word "ilk" has a new asterisked memory in my mind. I remember learning that Martin Gable was Arlene's husband but could not understand that dichotomy of them not having the same last name. Silly me.

R276, the dumbbell incident may have particular resonance to your little ears in Michigan because the victim was a tourist from Birmingham, Michigan.

These full episodes demonstrate that DL fave 1940s hunk John Payne was an exceptionally sharp guest panelist.

I need to cleanse my palate of Ed Sullian in a rubber caveman mask.

Who is that?

r288: That's a 1939 photo of hunk John Payne. He had his greatest success at Fox in the 1940s, and in the late 1950s he was a guest panelist on WML. Many people consider him to be the best guest panelist ever. Much smarter than one might have thought.

r283 Can you draw Tippy the Turtle?

I got suckered in by the Draw Winky ad r290.

I never drew Winky, but we bought an ant farm.

Bennett's greatest disappointment was not having Marilyn Monroe appear as the Mystery Guest on WML. There are several episodes from the mid-1950s where a guest is greeted with wild wolf calls and Bennett's questions clearly and hopefully assume it's MM, only to be let down.

Speaking of wild wolf calls, that always seemed like such a vulgar part of the show, back when I was watching as a little kid, and even now. Not for the Mystery Guests but for the curvaceous lady contestants.

The wolf whistles for almost every female contestant who didn't look like Marie Dressler were one of the things that surprised me most when I first started watching episodes of "What's My Line?" from the 1950s. Even the usually dignified John Daly would act like a goofy schoolboy when an especially attractive woman was sitting next to him

Thanks, r283. You're right. My eldergay memory forgot about Mitford and the Trumpish details.

Remember how often Dorothy would ask a mystery guest, "Are you a curvaceous cutie?"

Yes, r285, that would explain some of it. Birmingham was right next door to our suburb, Royal Oak.

Jinx Falkenburg introduces us to collectible Americana Dolls, a special offer from Fab detergent!

[quote]He would rave about Palmer and described her as the best person he ever saw in the role.

Palmer was indeed said to have been fabulously well cast as Nellie Forbush. I wish I had seen her.

Incidentally, Arlene was the Barbara Walters of her day. She was the First Lady of American television in the 1950s.

Thanks, R289. He had great thighs.

But wasn't Betsy the first Today Girl?

Arlene hosted Home which was a daily follow up to The Today Show.

So who are the women today of the Arlene Francis ilk?

I'd say Martha Stewart might come closest for grand demeanor and way of speaking. I could imagine her on the WML panel.

Others?

"So who are the women today of the Arlene Francis ilk?"

There's sort of a vacuum right now, but Tommi DiDario is poised to take over the role of America's Favorite Housefrau once he becomes Rachael Ray's Official Lifestyle/Plant-Based Expert.

For Virginia Graham fans. My grandmother had this book, which I read several times as a child, although Virginia's show Girl Talk wasn't exactly my cup of tea. I preferred the game shows. The book is really entertaining though. I found a copy a few years ago on eBay.

Am I not the doyenne of anything?

It takes a smile and a style to be the toast of the town, love!

To truly be a part of Arlene's ilk you must be famous but nobody knows exactly why. And also exceedingly gracious.

Is there anyone today who could be described as gracious?

I don't know if they gave out Emmys for hairstyling back then, but if they did and Virginia's stylist didn't win one, it's a national tragedy.

It did receive a Nobel Prize in Engineering.

[quote]Is there anyone today who could be described as gracious?

Seeing as I am now 60, and I am beginning to experience that unfortunate symptom of elderfraudom, the thinning of a once lush bounty of hair, I am amazed at the amount of hair Virginia had in her sixties.

Is Brini Maxwell still around?

Renée Taylor's hair on "The Nanny" was no slouch, either.

The original Iron Lady!

I am almost finished with "The Reporter Who Knew Too Much". I am not a conspiratory theorist generally but there seems to be something to this one. Hemmingway admired her as a reporter. She managed to get an interview with Jack Ruby while he was on trial. She was obsessed with finding the truth about the assassination. I think Oswald was the lone shooter but I also think he was part of a conspiracy and the patsy. I think she was murdered to silence her. She also had a public feud with Sinatra. The whole thing stinks of the mob.

Arlene Frantic

r316

Hemingway, like Dorothy was a pill poppin' drunk. They both died by miscalculating the amount of abuse their bodies could handle.

Reading the facts about Dorothy's death, it's very difficult not to believe she was murdered.

Unfortunately, both bios about her are missing interviews with any of her WML colleagues. None of them (or her family) collaborated with Lee Israel, the author of the first bio, called Kilgallen, and of course, they were all dead by the time this sloppily written new one The Reporter Who Knew Too Much came out last year.

I believe the definitive bio has still not been written but it never will now.

R318 seems to think that Hemingway's blowing his brains out somehow related to pill-popping abuse.

A shotgun to the head IS abusive, but not the type R318 appears to be invoking.

Anyone know what became of Dorothy's kids?

R321 Here's a link to a Dorothy Kilgallen website. There's next to nothing posted about her kids.

And this, from nourishingobscurity.com

"...In spite of this, Dorothy still played the game well and appeared cheerful. Dorothy left behind her husband Dick Kollmar and her three beloved children.

Her oldest, Dickie Kollmar, was 24 years old. Her middle child, daughter Jill Kollmar, had married Larry Grossman in the summer of 1963. Her youngest child, son Kerry Kollmar, was 11 years old. – Suzanne (2004)

…

Jill had fallen out with her mother at the cuckolding of her father and her mother never wanted to be seen in public with Jill again."

Handy advice!

Be an interesting person!

Dorothy's youngest son got in trouble for cocaine distribution in 1974. He lives in an Atlanta suburb now and has a normal job.

Did Dot's children at least get a chin from their father's side?

Arlene, Dorothy and Bennett all had very attractive children who appeared on WML at various times They've all grown old, older than most reading this post, and lost their looks, from what I can see online.

Arlene's son was in no form or shape attractive. In fact he got the WORST parts of both his parents.

For some odd reason Arlene got better looking from the 50s to the 70s

The studio lighting and B&W camera work of the 1950s episodes of "What's My Line?" do Arlene's face no favors.

Arlene was immensely helped by "the wizard on Park and 73rd" though how she found the time in her busy schedule to have the procedures done is beyond me.

....

r332 Did she get tits and ass?

Charming cover girl.

Arlene really ran the gamut of hair colors throughout her 17 year tenure on WML, beginning with what appeared to be a dark and harsh brunette in 1950 and ending most successfully in soft strawberry blonde (as evidenced by color photos of the mid-1960s). She went through a brief period of almost platinum blonde in the mid-1950s which was just as harsh to her face as her original dark brunette.

I have wondered for years why the Kollmar children never bothered to put their father's information on his grave. He's buried in a two-fer with Dorothy, but in all these years they haven't even scratched his name in.

Nonsense, R329. Peter Gabel's hair is MUCH nicer than his mother's.

(Isn't it fascinating how academics still do this with their appearance?")

I did like the time he appeared as the mystery guest on the show, and Arlene quawked, "I thought you were working at the World's Fair this evening!"

R84, I remember Virginia before "Girl Talk." She hosted "Food For Thought" weekdays on WABD-5 in New York, sponsored by Bohack Supermarkets. He daughter, who died last year, had a Manhattan cable show "Lynn Graham Trends."

YIKES!!! ^^^

Peter Gabel is the spitting image of his father.

She looks like a thespian.....

It's interesting to note that Arlene didn't really become famous and a recognizable celebrity until she was well into middle age. She first appeared on WML in 1950 (its 2nd week of programming) and she would have been 43 by then. It's true she was somewhat well-known through radio of the 1940s but nowhere near the level she attained in the next couple of decades.

Now......what was my point....? I guess it's that nowadays a woman could never achieve her first success in any medium if she's in her 40s unless it was on some awful reality show that made fun of her.

I belong to a WML Facebook page that has several thousand members. Lots and lots of obscure trivia about all the panelists, old never-before-seen photos, and even unusual info about each of the episodes.

But....warning! Lots of crazies there.

Arlene about to become one of the victims of a crazed killer in the pre-Code 1932 "Murders in the Rue Morgue."

The password is "chubby."

So delightful today. Miss Lillian Roth was the Mystery Guest on WML. I've Got a Secret just started with our Miss Olivia dH doing the opening. Betsy will soon be off to New Haven to do Roar Like a Dove....... yep, Roar Like a Dove. Doesn't that sound exactly like the title of a play that would open on Broadway May 21, 1964 and close June 6, 1964? Well, it was and it did. Betsy's hairdo is extra becoming on this one.

How delightful to see this thread come to life again!

I've been waiting patiently to do it, r348. I thought for chrissakes could we use it now! Anyhoo, Miss Olivia is there to promote Lady in a Cage. Lady in a Cage!!!

Lord, yes. Good on you.

In r342's photo, Arlene looks like Andrea Martin.

Yes; she does, a bit. R343 made the interesting observation that a woman now would have a difficult time achieving stardom (or at least renown) at middle age as the divine Miss Francis did, and I think that's true. Which is too bad, because I think that's when a lot of women reach their potential in terms of looks, confidence, swagger, sophistication, whatever. I guess television, and the WML kind of programs provided that opportunity for women who were only peripherally well known. And I guess television, and the kind of tacky programs we have now, has no need for those qualities. Which is why the Real Housewives thrive.

End of rant. Thanks to the poster upthread for reviving this thread.

r336: On the first page of her absolutely essential "That Certain Something - the Magic of Charm" (1961) , Arlene cheerfully mentions her hair colors: "I was the image of my powerful, dark father, but when I was old enough to realize peroxide didn't have to be a poison, I started making attempts to emulate my mother. Dr. Neibuhr's immortal line 'Give me the courage to change what can be changed, the serenity to accept that which can't, and the wisdom to know the difference' can also be applied to externals . My hair is now blonde, but I am resigned to dark eyes and olive skin!"

Must find this book!

Here you go, r354!

Many thanks--it's about to be mine! Having falling down the google rabbit hole, I've learned there's an Arlene Francis page on FB which has a number of clips--watching her interview William B. Williams who, if you didn't grow up in NY/NJ/CT, was the premier d.j. for the American Songbook. Heaven!

Glad to help, r354! It's a good, solid book with lots of sensible advice. Her chapter on racism and prejudice can stand alone. She tells of her attempt to buy a co-op on East 72nd street and was told that because she was married to a Jew the apartment was unavailable. "To understand the deep and abiding cut of prejudice, we only need be the victims of it. Once experienced in this way, only the most heartless could ever practice it."

I'm looking forward to reading it--thanks, again.

I just turned to BUZZR and some show hosted by Robert Q. Lewis is on. The 3-person panel has to guess who Edward Everett Horton would want to be.......

The Name's the Same! What an irresistible shitfest. Love seeing Meredith Willson pre-Music Man, when he'd become toast of the town. And the obnoxious Jerry Lester. And the long-forgotten, boring, snobby, Arlene wannabe, Joan Alexander.

And, of course, R359, EEH was gay. R360, do you think Meredith Willson was sporting a toupee? His hair was looking too perfect.

I saw a 1957 episode of WML on Buzzr a couple of days and saw something I had never seen. While it was customary for married women of that era - and before - to identify themselves as Mrs. John Smith, this contestant signed in by using her husband's name! Bennett Cerf asked her if the first name she used, Matt, was her name. She said that it was her husband's name.

Robert Q. was gay, too. Which makes all his leering at women and flirting with them truly hilarious.

Commonplace, r362. If they were ever identified as Lois Jones, that would be followed by (Mrs. Sidney or Sidney Jones) And a divorced woman (of good background) would use her maiden name and her married name. From Lois Smith to Mrs. Sidney Jones to Mrs. Smith Jones.

Not kidding.

I think The Name's the Same contestants were in on the "names" from the beginning. Their questions were designed for maximum double meaning - Joan Alexander (the voice of Lois Lane in the Paramount Superman cartoons) was particularly bad at being "surprised" her questions elicited laughs.

And their reactions at the "reveal" were equally bogus.

BUT it is nice to see what passed for celebrity on early television.....and it certainly points up at how skillful Arlene was at game playing and life.

Who was this Joan Alexander dame? She was so devoid of sparkle.....

Heard she married well and threw fabulous party at her home on Sutton Place.

R364, I think you missed my point. Using your example, what this contestant did would be the equivalent of Lois Jones not identifying herself as Mrs. Sidney Jones but, instead, as Sidney Jones. That was not commonplace. At least not in the 1950s. As evidence of that was the fact that Bennett Cerf felt the need to ask the contestant if her first name was, in fact, Matt.

Arlene once again tinsel shilling for the Holidays!

Arlene does cheesecake.....

In 1975, when I was applying to colleagues, my lovely English Literature teacher (from North Dakota), signed her letters of recommendation as "Norma Schultz (Miss)." I assume that was in case any of the institutions wished to correspond with her they would know the proper form of address. Of course, today, it would be an assertion of fierce spinster power.

She really was an excellent teacher--and I think she's still alive, having moved back from the Chicago suburbs in her late 70s to care for an ailing father. Like something out of Cather.

Someone posted this on the Ann Miller thread. I think Arlene's dress is quite lovely!

I always found Miss Arlene Francis' ilk to be well groomed if somewhat fetid.

Sue Oakland was on the panel when Judy Garland was the mystery guests. Years later Bennett Cerf said Judy arrived at the studio late, and soon asked when did she go on. The answer was about a minute. Judy, "So why the freaking rush?"

Remember the time the guest was a zookeeper, specifically taking care of the "chinstrap" penguins and Dorothy was so enraged she walked off.

Oh my goodness, this just started:

The Dick Cavett Show

TONIGHT, 6:00 PM ON KTTVDT4 11.4, 30 MIN 2018

BETTY FURNESS

Betty Furness discusses the consumer protection movement, the challenge of righting automotive wrongs, and the industry that sprung up when fitted sheets didn't fit.

Oh goodie, and after that....

The Dick Cavett Show

TONIGHT, 6:30 PM ON KTTVDT4 11.4, 30 MIN 2018

LETITIA BALDRIGE

Letitia Baldrige reveals the reasons for manners, tips for interacting with different cultures, and the one place where she acts rude.

Bump for excellence.

Oh, bless your heart, r378!

Found this thread last night by accident.

It's way too cool to be buried.

Thank you, formerBHmanny. I started it Christmas, two years ago. I try to bring it back each year....for just a bit.

Well thank you then.

I'm glad I found it.

So vivacious...

I had to bump this old thread because it's truly one of DL's finest ever. I just reread it all and had several LOL moments.....the brilliance of eldergays.

Thank you, Doris La-Chat for starting it.

My pleasure, r384...

Arlene truly got better with age, in every way.

The Password is....

I just put this in the CBS 50th thread. Arlene subbing for Bill Cullen on Price is Right.

It seems that Sue Oakland passed away this past March and she had an obituary in the Times:

SUZANNE WUNDERMAN WUNDERMAN--Suzanne. Emmy-winning TV personality died March 14, 2021 at age 86 from natural causes. Married first to TV/radio pioneer Ted Cott from 1956 to 1973 and then to direct marketing icon Lester Wunderman from 1975 to 2019. She was a model, actress, TV game show panelist, and Director of Editorials at WCBS-TV, winning a 1982 Emmy. She graduated high school at 15, got her B.A. from Barnard College at 18 and a master's and Ph.D. in political science from Columbia University. Survived by sons James, Thomas, and Patrick Cott, stepson Marc Wunderman, stepdaughter Karen Wunderman, and six grandchildren. No funeral will be held. In lieu of flowers, contributions may be made in her memory to High Ridge House in Riverdale, NY.

Published in New York Times on Mar. 17, 2021.

More Sue Oakland: From TV Guide, July 23, 1966:

Since the death of Dorothy Kilgallen the previous November, the What’s My Line? crew from Goodson-Todman has been engaged in “The Great Woman Hunt,” a furious search for a permanent replacement for Kilgallen, who had been with the show since its inception in 1950. So far the seat has remained in the possession of a rotating cast of guest stars – everyone from Kitty Carlisle (a stalwart of Goodson-Todman’s To Tell the Truth) to Dr. Joyce Brothers, with magazine publisher Helen Gurley Brown, TV Guide critic Judith Crist, columnist Sheilah Graham, and actresses Joanna Barnes, Joan Fontaine and Dina Merrill thrown in. Even Muriel Davidson, the author of this article, has been considered for the list. It’s a tough gig, though, coming into a long-running show with a veteran cast – as host John Daly puts it, “If she doesn’t fit into our family, we’ll just freeze her out.” At press time there are three clear contenders for the seat. There’s Phyllis Newman, another veteran of To Tell the Truth, married to legendary Broadway composer Adolph Green; charming, bubbly and very girlish (and I mean that as a compliment), always having to tilt her head upward slightly during the Mystery Guest segment so her mask wouldn’t fall off. Sue Oakland is a surprise finalist; married to TV producer Ted Cott (David Susskind’s cousin), she’s got both beauty and brains: “Besides being breath-takingly beautiful and gowned, she is a near-genius, with a Master’s degree in political science from Columbia University and with one lovely leg up on a Ph.D.* *Her Master’s was in the inside workings of the United Nations; her Doctoral dissertation was “The Function of Television on the Presidential Election Campaign of 1968." And then there’s society columnist Suzy Knickerbocker, whose nameplate will eventually simply read “Suzy” rather than the letter-crunching “Miss Knickerbocker.”

r389 - Thank you, Rona, for bringing this very sad news to our attention. In her honor, I'd like to share this very special WML.

Queen of Charm

Mrs. Gabel...