Jim Steinman, composer of bombastic rock

I'm a big fan. Bombastic, melodramatic power pop - what's not to love? Even though his Meat Loaf productions are his best-known they're the least interesting to me. Seek out the obscure album by Pandora's Box that he produced. It features the original version of It's All Coming Back To Me Now plus should have been hits like Original Sin, Good Girls Go To Heaven and Safe Sex.

I'm not a fan of songs/singers that try to beat me over the head. Sing to me, not at me.

I would love to know about him. If he is straight, he is the gayest straight man ever. He got Ken Russell to direct several videos. The Dance in my Pants video has got to be the definition of a guilty pleasure. I also love that he used Karla DeVito as much as he did.

It is weird that he seems have so many problem with his managers. He was actually locked out of his show Dance of the Vampires by his own manager.

He should just marry Mutt Lange and get it over with.

It's too bad he hasn't had any luck with music theatre, because I think his music is inherently theatrical (and yes, overblown, overproduced, and pompous, but I think he has a larger than life vision in his songwriting and producing).

He wrote one song.

ONE.

Then he rewrote it over and over and over and over and over again and morons bought it.

I also like the fact that his early work seem to have been heavily influenced by Brecht. The synopsis of the early play he did at the Public Theater sounds like a train wreck, though. I cannot believe it played any better than it sounds.

The man had one song that he'd rewrite every so often. Most of his rewrites were fails but if enough time passed you'd have a hit again.

Total Eclipse of the Heart (Bonnie Tyler / Nicki French)

Making Love Out Of Nothing At All (Air Supply)

It's All Coming Back To Me Now (Celine Dion)

I'd Do Anything For Love (Meatloaf)

Those songs all sounded alike and were hits

Then you had the not hits which sound like the hits but weren't as big

Read 'Em And Weap (Barry Manilow)

Left In The Dark (Barbra Streisand)

Holding Out For A Hero (Bonnie Tyler)

Of course other like Lionel Richie did the same thing too.

Babyface also wrote the same song over and over again. I still love them all, though.

No apologies for loving Steinman's bombastic pop ......

Karla DeVito's 'Heaven Can Wait'

Tire Tracks & Broken Hearts ......... Bonnie Tyler version. Was also used in Andrew Lloyd Webber's 'Whistle Down The Wind' ................bombastic is the right word.

I like Original Sin by Taylor Dayne

I wonder if "Read 'em and Weep" would have been a hit for another artist instead of the hyped "comeback song" for Barry Manilow

Love or hate Barry, he never was known for bombast

Steinman's "Nowhere Fast" also from "Streets Of Fire" is cool too.

r8 hits the nail on the head. And Steinman was a schlockmeister.

R1 and R14 I absolutely love both those songs! "Streets of Fire" is a big guilty pleasure; I'm the only person I know who loves it

I meant OP and R14

And I'm the only one who likes Dance of the Vampires.

But in German. It sucked on Broadway.

"Holding Out For a Hero" is my guilty pleasure

You haven't lived until you've attempted a Jim Steinman song at karaoke.

"Left In The Dark" was pretty good but it was a flop single for Babs. Celine Dion has the perfect voice for Steinman's material. She matched the over-the-top production with an over-the-top vocal.

He had a hit in Australia with Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through.

I also love Tanz der Vampire. I have seen it several times. The American version was an abortion from start to finish.

I have a Jim Steinman iTunes playlist I still listen to regularly. Nowhere Fast is a great workout song!

Diane Lane was something else.

Still looks great.

I love over the top music, so I'm a fan. I was fascinated by a 2002 interview I saw on YT. It was broken up by song but he talked about many of the Bat Out of Hell songs, writing, recording, so on. Bat Out of Hell was part of the soundtrack of my childhood.

[quote]He had a hit in Australia with Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through.

Jesus God that's a steaming pile of shit.

The Original 'It's All Coming Back To Me' by the Steinman created group Pandora's Box (featuring Ellen Foley)

Meatloaf's 'Objects In The Rearview Mirror' is another 'big' one.

I can't resist ........

Who made the very first move ? Who made the very first move ??

Another great song from 'Whistle Down The Wind'

'A Kiss Is A Terrible Thing To Waste'

I could have sworn he wrote and produced Ellen Foley's "We Belong to The Night" because it sounds like his style, but I just Googled it and it turns out she wrote it herself. She probably did it as homage. I loved her vocals on 'Bat' it's such a guilty corny pleasure.

Who's better, Ellen Foley or Karla DeVito.

She has been married to Robby Bensen since 1982. Rare long marriage for "Hollywood " people.

Jim Steinman is definitely a guilty pleasure. I actually think there's real talent there, but perhaps he needed a great collaborator or editor.

I think his collab with Andrew Lloyd Webber, "Whistle Down the Wind," is fairly good. It's not terrific as a stage show, but the music really works. Also love the "Streets of Fire" songs.

Bombast belongs to Broadway. Steinman and Dennis DeYoung should get a recording booth and jerk each other off.

[quote] I could have sworn he wrote and produced Ellen Foley's "We Belong to The Night"

I love you for even remembering that record. I think it was Ian Hunter & Mick Ronson that produced "Nightout". Two Englishmen, and they made one of the New Yawkiest albums ever. There were tons of great records out of NY during that period ('77-'80)

No one's mentioned what is probably Steinman's most over-the-top production ever-The Sisters Of Mercy's "This Corrosion". Too bad Andrew Eldritch essentially retired from the studio. The Sisters were my spirit animals. Hehe. Loved Patricia Morrison too.

Count me in as another Streets of Fire fan (BTW, there is an excellent Blu-ray version recently released by Shout Factory. If you are a fan, you MUST buy it). I wish there had been more Steinman songs on the soundtrack.

I love the entire "Secret Dreams and Forbidden Fire" album. Can never get enough of Bonnie's vocals and the everything-but-the-kitchen-sink production.

*sink

r8

I can't believe he kept getting away with that

[quote]Who's better, Ellen Foley or Karla DeVito.

I think the answer is that Ellen Foley is a better singer, but Karla DeVito is a better performer. That has to be why Karla DeVito was lipsyncing to Ellen Foley's vocals during live performances.

[quote] *sink

Hehe. No need to correct yourself, those random (space) (hyphen) (space)' things turn up in a lot of my quotes.

But they turn up AFTER you post.

[quote] things turn up in a lot of my quotes.

I meant to say "posts".

No. Ellen Foley refused to tour with Meatloaf. The record company offered her a solo deal and she took it.

Karla, 2015.

Ellen, 2015.

I remember when the top 2 songs during that month back in 1983 were "Total Eclipse" and "Making Love Out of Nothing"

[quote]Diane Lane was something else. Still looks great.

Very true, r25. I've said for like 30 years that if I were straight Diane Lane would be my dream girlfriend, and she deserves all the success she got later in life. She is aging both appropriately and beautifully.

Who did her song vocals for Streets of Fire, anyway?

Diane Lane still gets work?

[quote][R1] and [R14] I absolutely love both those songs! "Streets of Fire" is a big guilty pleasure; I'm the only person I know who loves it

Michael Paré was my big guilty pleasure in the mid 80s when I was 13-15. Jesus, can't even remember how many times I wanked thinking about him.

When I was 13, I was completely obsessed with the original 8 1/2-minute version of "It's All Coming Back to Me Now". It's so fabulously melodramatic: the guitar solo, the vocal theatrics, the overwrought lyrics... Strangely, though, I've never actually listened to any of Pandora's Box's other songs.

Still looks good at 58

R47 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, For Ellen Aim's singing voice, he combined the voices of Laurie Sargent and Holly Sherwood, billing them as "Fire Incorporated."

R51, he was such a pretty little thing when younger.

We all were Dear, we all were.

I wasn't.

The thread isn't really complete without the classic video featuring flying choirboys, wind machines blowing Bonnie's hair, and oddly enough men in church dancing in fur loincloths...

After all, we are living in a powder keg and giving off sparks.

Ellen Foley arranged and sang back up on Bonnie Tyler's Holding Out For a Hero. I wonder why Steinman didn't do a solo album on her.

Wow, I had forgotten just how overdone the Bob Giraldi video for "Read 'Em and Weep" is. Barry onstage at one point singing to his younger self in the audience (at least as I saw it) and making him cry. Anthem for a doomed youth, indeed.

I was listening to a countdown from 1983, and Total Eclipse and Making Love were back to back. They made a big deal out of Total Eclipse being from Steinman but said nothing about Making Love. Go figure

[quote] And I'm the only one who likes Dance of the Vampires..... But in German. It sucked on Broadway.

How could they one so right and one so wrong?

Broadway...Gotta admit Mandy Gonzalez has a great voice. Listen how the audience laughs not expecting this song.

Better quality German finale

Dead Ringer For Love - Meatloaf & Cher

Count me in as a fan. I love the bombast. "Tonight is what it means to be young" is one of my top played on my iTunes. I found "Dance of the Vampires" hilarious (and liked the music). I know, not what they were going for.

Finished watching the smash German and Broadway versions of "Dance Of The Vampires". It was based on Polanski's Fearless Vampire Killers" which is a comedy, sometimes slapstick. The Broadway version was done as comedy and the German was more serious. The German version was directed by Polanski and has some really downright creepy scenes with great make-up and costumes and Broadway didn't. They cheaped out on the sumptuous sets for Broadway too. The music is still beautiful though. Would love if Lincoln Center would do the German version on that huge stage someday. Polanski of course can't come to do it right.

R64, I think the German version is funnier than you think. The entire first scene is a parody of Fiddler on the Roof. It also helps if you speak German.

R65, the German version is more complicated than the American. It is interesting that the American producers savaged the juvenile German humor during the pre-production press and then added so much more. I remember some bit with a penis shaped sponge. Crawford was terrible, and apparently had it in his contract that he could write his own lines. He was bloated and dissipated. Nothing like the very sexy Steve Barton.

Getting back to the topic, Jim Steinman hated the US production and was very vocal about his objections during rehearsals. His own manager had him banned from the theater.

I will say that the one thing in the US production that was better is the backdrop with all of the Times Square signs vampirized: Bats, now and forever, sacrificial VIRGIN record store, etc.

Prefer the power pop of The Raspberries "Go All the Way"

I admire Steinman's songwriting talent, and his adherence to a style that's all his own.

Like many posters, the Bat Trilogy soundtracked my childhood especially BAT II: BACK INTO HELL. As an adult I can listen to it and smile, as a teenager I could hear it and cry. Steinman's gift was giving voice to adolescent passion & rage long after he passed out of that phase of his life, and I find that so interesting. Then there's his world-building, the way he somehow created his own inner Universe where his songs and the characters in them exist. It's something not many artists manage to do.

Have any of you here read the script for his NEVERLAND musical? It's a crassly seductive and wickedly funny piece, and I wonder how it would play today. I don't believe Steiny is given his due as a musical theater auteur, and it's a real fuckin' shame.

Too bad Steinman never collaborated with Dame Shirley Bassey. She has the perfect voice and delivery for his arrangements.

Have we discussed his recent collaboration with Meat Loaf, Karla DeVito and Ellen Foley, Going All The Way Is Just The Start (A Song In 6 Movements)? Loaf's voice is shit but DeVito and Foley still sound great and it's signature over-the-top Steinman.

His songs don't work for Streets of Fire. They needed more of a hard rock or even punk feel.

I remember when "Holding Out For a Hero" was a fave track for aerobics running.

I admit to a crush on mid-late 80's Meat Loaf. Something about the tender, shy desperation of his character was appealing.

This comes through strong in the video for 'More Than You Deserve', when Meat's sudden infatuation with a diner waitress catches him unawares and snags on his crippling insecurities. The way he says goodbye to her at the end is so sweet and awkward.

Dame Shirley Bassey. never got the following here as she did in Britain, she is most remembered here for the Bond themes but she's a huge superstar in the UK.

Steinman is certainly enjoying a renaissance at the moment after being "left in the dark" for so long post-DANCE OF THE VAMPIRES on Broadway, especially with "Total Eclipse" back at #1 and BAT OUT OF HELL: THE MUSICAL a huge hit in the West End (even Brantley liked it).

To wit, Steinman and Lloyd Webber re-teamed to present WHISTLE DOWN THE WIND in its NYC debut back in late 2015, just after Steinman had done two revues of his oeuvre with a young director (Pat Cerasaro) who managed to get Ellen Foley and Karla DeVito in the same room together (linked above), along with Jeremy Jordan and several others.

One can spot him and longtime Steinman collaborator Barry Keating while Jeremy Jordan takes a mid-song selfie with Steinman himself (in wheelchair) in this video, which was shot by none other than DL fave Patti LuPone's only son Josh. Also visible is the Public Theater director who discovered Meat Loaf while working with Steinman and Joe Papp, DYNASTY and LA LAW director Kim Friedman (who also is well-known these days for being Crazy Jewish Mom on Instagram, incidentally).

Steinman's work is deceptively difficult to do... anyone who has seen a drunk karaoke "Anything For Love" or "Bat Out Of Hell" knows precisely the truth of that. These Broadway kids seem to have an affinity for it, though.

r71 those songs are perfection. Have no idea what you were listening to.

Great songwriter and producer, but a total fucking asshole on a personal level. I don't wish ill on others, but he really deserves a hot lead douche.

What is with those two off key bitches backing Jeremy Jordan? They stunk up parts of his "It's All Coming Back to Me Now" and that wasn't even the same gig, IIRC.

r78, 54 Below only attracts what talent it can get. The quality varies wildly.

Don't be silly. I'm talking about singing on key. Someone in the comments said one of them is a music professor ar NYU!?

Steinman himself requested the same musicians/singers that did "All Coming Back" based on that viral video, so they say.

Apparently, they are somewhat erratic.

Josh Young's "Making Love (Out Of Nothing At All)" was quite spectacular with all of them involved, so perhaps they are hit and miss.

As a sidenote, it's amusing to watch the backup girl on the left clearly smitten with Josh as he nails the many difficult sections.

R77, please spill the beans. I would love to more about him on a personal level. I can't find much about his personal life online. It is interesting that he has been involved with soooooo many lawsuits.

r82, believe me, anyone who knows him -- and usually those who have worked with him as well -- has stories. Ask Rory Dodd (the real one, not r75) about Jim some time. Especially if you have a dark past with Jim yourself, Rory will bend your ear for HOURS. My story -- which I won't get into here for fear of the usual DL attitude toward long-ass stories -- is only one of many. One clue I will give you, if you know anything about Steinman and his Peter Pan obsession (currently being manifested in the West End, and soon Toronto, in "Bat Out of Hell: The Musical"), is simply this: Michael Jackson wasn't the only gay Peter Pan fanatic with a dark side. Lost boys and golden girls, indeed.

R83, Hmmm... I always figured that he had to have some major kink to him.

R83 hmm, interesting. Andrew Polec, the gorgeous guy who plays the lead in BOOH is around 28/9, but I remember the production lied about his age (saying he was 5 or 6 years younger than he actually was) when they were doing promo rounds. No-one picked up on it except those who followed his early career. Maybe that plays into Steinman's penchant for young blood, somehow?

Steinman always appeared interested in the nubiles; but thinking about it more, if that were true then Meat Loaf would have walked away from Jim years ago and for good being that he has two beautiful daughters he is protective over (Amanda & Pearl).

Well, it's kind of hard to quantify. The one thing I can say for certain is that Jim is gay, and that he has a taste for younger men that's not exactly pleasant. However, he also had a penchant for being knocked around. A colleague who knew him in the Eighties described him as showing up to important events looking visibly green with fresh bruises, dressed in fetish leather (which naive fans have written off as trying to project a dramatic rock image, but anybody who's seen the Pandora's Box music video for "All Coming Back" knows that's bullshit), and constantly ducking off to the ladies' room to "treat his cold with nasal spray."

Jim frequently told a story back in the day (to explain why he didn't sing for himself and initially worked through Meat Loaf) about getting his nose broken in a bar fight by a 6-foot diesel dyke biker, so I can imagine that, whatever he likes in his dotage, he was never far from the S&M scene either. (Look for waveboy1984, folks, if anyone's familiar with that username; Jim used it once on instant messenger, and that's the only reason I know. :P)

R77/R86, That is kind of the impression that I got about him. He seems to have a lot of unhealthful relationships (including Meat Loaf).

I'll give you another one: anyone who is familiar with Jim and his early pre-Meat Loaf work is probably familiar with the name Barry Keating. (I wouldn't be shocked if Keating himself browses this place; he's a whole bag of cats unto himself. Six-time Tony-nominated composer of "Starmites," and one psychotic disturbed human being.)

Barry has jetted around the world practically since 1969, all but holding Jim's dick when he needs to tinkle. Jim's response has been to consistently chisel away at even Barry's fair stake of a project to suit his own gain. Barry, for all his other faults, has gone above and beyond the call of duty for Jim over the years, and deserves far more than Jim has given him, and Jim has, to my knowledge, never treated him right or paid/credited him fairly. (I recall one time where Barry was finally "paid" with a cheap black-and-white television set for years of hard work.)

One story about Barry makes for a great example of Jim's attitude towards his friends: during development of the recent "Bat Out of Hell" musical, about five years ago, Barry was asked to get the script (which, typical of anything written solely -- or mostly -- by Jim, was basically a glorified sketch pad, the written representation of "throw all the shit at the wall and see which sticks") into shape by one of the producers, who planned to send it out to various theaters. Barry worked quite hard on it, and asked for ten grand for his trouble. (Truthfully, he's been dicked around so long by these people that he didn't even know he was seriously lowballing himself; with his resume, even $150-$250K is fractional. Were he writing it himself, soup to nuts, he could have asked for a mil, easy. But at any rate, he asked for ten thousand.)

What was Jim's response to an absurdly reasonable request? Jim told the producers that his "best friend" shouldn't be given a dime because he had agreed to do it as a favor. Hate to be his enemy, huh? (The postscript is that one of the producers felt sorry for Barry, fought hard, and eventually got him five grand that they had to wrestle from Jim and his manager. I'm fairly confident that's the last dime he ever saw on the project.)

Hmm... Interesting about Barry Keating. Starmites was also known as twink central. I know Victor Garber was banging the lead while in a relationship with another very young guy. Does Barry like them young as well?

It seems somewhat typical that guys who like to be abused are often scum in the real world, but again, I wonder about Jim's relationship with his manager. His manager has sued him several times and yet he is still with him as far as I can tell.

Jim on his manager in the lead-up to "Dance of the Vampires," speaking to the NY Post: "My most extreme fights are with David [Sonenberg]. He isn't a 'yes' man. He doesn't even approach being a 'considerate' man. Our relationship is a lot less like Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick in 'The Producers' than it is Bette Davis and Joan Crawford in 'Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?'"

Yes, Barry likes them young. And that's not even the worst part.

[quote]Our relationship is a lot less like Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick in 'The Producers' than it is Bette Davis and Joan Crawford in 'Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?'"

How could this man possibly be gay ; )

R77, I suppose if he can't get an angel he'll at least get a boy, and a boy'll be the next best thing?

r92, stop it, you're killin' me! xD

I should have figured Steinman for gay. A pop-songwriting legend who doesn't 'girl' grown women, and lets them 'speak' in song as independently-sexual goddesses in charge of their own minds, bodies & destinies...of course he's not a straight man.

What exactly happened between him and Meat Loaf after the massive success of Bat Out of Hell? It must have been bad considering they would have been crazy not to collaborate again after BOOH (although Meat Loaf did use Steinman songs on Dead Ringer; Steinman did not produce them).

[quote]I should have figured Steinman for gay.

Honey, any guy writing the lyric..."Turn around Bright Eyes" should have clued you in thirty years ago.

R90, what's "the worst part"? Is he not into consent?

Have you guys heard this?

r97, more to do with being Typhoid Mary of the Eighties (well before a cocktail ever existed; just goes to show the good die young, but pricks live forever) and not using a rubber. Make of that what you will.

r95, it was a combo of several things:

1) Steinman wanted to be more recognized for his contribution (he only found out at the contract signing stage that he was not sharing top billing with Meat on "Bat" -- public explanations have mainly centered on the label deciding Meat, who had the voice, needed to be the center of attention for marketing purposes, but privately Jim claims execs told him his name was "too Jewish" to get that kind of credit).

2) For his part, Meat wanted to be more involved in the creative aspect, having input in how the songs sounded and who played on them, no longer content to merely be Frankenstein(man)'s monster.

3) They had spent close to a year on the road before "Bat" approached anything resembling success, and it (and the resulting fallout) fractured their relationship. They started off as a flop opener for Cheap Trick in Chicago, and worked their way up to headlining a punishing six-show-a-week eleven-month tour. Meat was exhausted from hauling all that ass around the stage and delivering those intense vocals, and began to rely on nose candy for artificial energy, much like everyone else around that time. That made an already ten-grade whack job even crazier; it led to several suicide attempts and, ultimately, a nervous breakdown. After the dust cleared from that shit, Jim was ready to do what the label wanted them to, he had a Bat clone album written (I've often said labels are in the manufacturing business, not the music business, the way they want to replicate an artist's initial success), but when Meat came into the studio and opened his mouth, no notes came out. At first, they thought touring + drugs + exhaustion = the cause, but his doctors said he was fine physically, and concluded it must be a psychological problem. So Meat ran off to make "Roadie" and clear his head; Jim wound up recording "Bad for Good" himself and having to then turn around and write "Dead Ringer" for Meat. He co-produced all the rhythm tracks and got them in the can before Meat came back, hoping he'd be in good enough shape. After co-producing vocals on two of the tracks, though, Jim didn't want the unenviable task of splicing Meat together phrase by phrase, so he walked, and Meat finished the job. Both albums came out around the same time, canceled each other out. That's... complex.

TL;DR: They love each other, but they can't stand that without each other, they'd have nothing. That's at the root of their ambivalent relationship. (That, and their personalities are oil and water. Meat is a straight good ole boy from Texas weaned on gospel and R&B, Jim is a sheltered gay kid from Long Island with a steel magnate dad and a cultured mom who exposed him to way too much theater and opera as a kid. And yet, somehow, they just gel creatively.)

r99 thanks so much. What a read. This is a very fascinating thread. I don't know much about Steinman.

I've read Def Leppard were originally going to have Jim Steinman produce "Hysteria" but it didn't work out and they went back to Mutt Lange and of course, the rest is history. What happened there?

I'd forgotten that Steinman produced Billy Squier's "Rock Me Tonight".

The Daisy Dukes on these dancers is a hoot!

r100, the story I've always heard is that Steinman and Def Leppard was simply the wrong match. I asked him about it once, and he said, "They made Spinal Tap look like the Juilliard String Quartet." (One of the few occasions I can remember him being genuinely witty; his bitchy remarks don't come so quickly these days. Hard living turns the brain to mush -- Jim liked his green, white, and liquor, and once they placed his heart in a precarious position, he switched to multiple doctors with scrip pads. I wouldn't say he's got long.)

Anyway... the tea on the Def Leppard thing is that Mutt Lange initially had a nervous breakdown and Jim came in to sweep it up, recommended by Cliff Burnstein, who was one of their managers. (Something he also did on the Billy Squier thing, to toss in a quick aside to r101; Jim joked once, "Mutt Lange is totally insane. He has nervous breakdowns as part of his process of making records! He mixes, remixes and has a nervous breakdown. That's why they're always finished up by his engineers, Nigel Green or Mike Shipley. It was weird, I'd done the Billy Squier album because Mutt pulled out when he had a nervous breakdown after he finished The Cars and then he had another one so I was brought in to do Def Leppard. It was insane, I was wandering the globe cleaning up after Mutt's nervous breakdowns." In this case, though, I think Jim was a last resort after they heard about his work with Billy Squier, because they'd also offered the seat to Chris Thomas, Trevor Horn, and Phil Collins. Imagine that last one for a second, if you will; then vomit and move on.)

The first meeting was when Jim knew this probably wasn't gonna work. He had to meet them at their shared house in Dublin, 'cause they were living in tax exile, and when they sat down to tea, the conversation went like this:

JOE ELLIOTT: "Look, we apologize that you had to come to Dublin, Ireland, but we can't be in England, so I'm sorry about this." STEINMAN: "Sorry? Are you kidding? Ireland… Dublin? This is the home of Synge, O'Casey, George Bernard Shaw, Yeats, James Joyce... these guys are idols of mine! Just finally being here is amazing! You guys feel that at all?" JOE ELLIOTT: "Well, we haven't really played with the local musicians yet." STEINMAN: "... *facepalm*"

(They continued not to be particular brains trusts; said Jim, "This group had no idea how much money they had. They had millions and millions of dollars, but they had no idea. They just knew how many cars they had, that's how they judged things. You know, 'I have nine cars.'" On another occasion, "Joe Elliott went into town to see a movie. When he came back I said, 'Joe, how was the movie?' And he said, 'Fucking brill, fucking brill.' I said, 'What did you see?' He said, '[italic]Police Academy III[/italic].'")

They asked for his songwriting input, and he threw out a few titles they could try, like "Use It or Lose It." Not his best suggestions, and they got shot down instantly, but hey, clearly his heart wasn't in it. Then came the actual sessions, where they couldn't agree on shit:

1) Rick Allen whispers to Jim one day, "I really want to be on this record." "...well, you're the drummer, aren't you?" "Yeah, but I really want to be on this record." Come to find out, Rick wasn't on [italic]Pyromania[/italic] at all; apparently Mutt didn't allow real drums, and was one of the first to use drum machines to simulate real drums (very unlike their purpose in dance music). He wouldn't let the drummer play *at all*, and Rick was upset. So Jim gets out the drum machine, programs it, and asks Rick to play along. He thought Rick was really good, or at least as good as any other drummer he'd worked with. "Hey! You're the drummer, you'll be on the record!" So they used all live drums on the tracks they worked on (Jim worked -- to some extent -- on "Don't Shoot Shotgun," "Run Riot," "Animal," "Women," "Gods of War," "Love & Affection," and "Love Bites," not that anything he did is on the final record).

TBC!

(CONTINUED)

1) ...So Mutt shows up, apparently recovered enough to consult, and he flips his shit when he hears the live drums: "What are you doing? You're gonna throw these poor kids' careers in the toilet! You can't put something like that out! Please don't have Rick Allen play!" (The drummer, meanwhile, is sitting right there.) So back to the drum machine they go. Dude won Drummer of the Year in a Playboy poll, and he hadn't even tapped a snare. (Postscript: Jim later checked on Rick following the car accident, and the road manager said, "They finally had to amputate." "So he has no arm?" "Yeah. Luckily, it won’t affect the drumming.")

2) They couldn't get the right guitar sound to save their lives. They show up to record (in Holland) and they didn't bring amps and didn't know where to get them. "We'd thought you'd have them!" Well, maybe if Jim was in New York, but they're in wooden shoe territory and he knows where to get amps about as well as they know classic Irish playwrights. So cut to every heavy metal band in Holland bringing in their amps to see how the guitars sound. Correction: every heavy metal band with Marshall amps, because that's the only amp the band wanted to use. It was an endless parade of plugging in, playing a chord, "What do you think, guys?", "Sounds squawky, hard and edgy, not creamy enough. What do you think?", "Well, it's not great, but we could start with it, build on it, layer it", "TOO. SQUAWKY." Over 200 amps later, Jim Marshall himself is screaming down the phone from his factory, ranting and raving because they put him through the same shit on [italic]Pyromania[/italic]. Jim's going nuts, so he sends for the multi-tracks of [italic]Pyromania[/italic] to figure out how the hell they got the sound. Band walks in as he's listening to the guitar solos, and Phil Collen says, "That's a little better, but it's still too squawky, too harsh." "...IT'S *YOUR* GUITARS!" (They wound up having to make some technical adjustments on the band's dime because the studio had terrible acoustics.)

3) Finally, they've figured out no real drums and the studio was the problem with the guitar sound. Let's cut some vocals. If you think they've finally hit Easy Street, you're not following this story very well. Apparently Joe Elliott's a great really low voice, and a great high voice, but he has a real problem in the middle registers. So they started working on a song, and the verse was in the middle register. He was having trouble. Jim says, "Alright, the chorus is higher, let's skip to that and get you going." It went well. Jim said, "Let's do another track." This went on for a bit, until Elliott had enough, stormed into the control room, and said "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?!?" Turns out Mutt's like Frankenstein; he pieces little bits of skin together, only working a bar or two at a time. Very slow. Very meticulous. And very nutbar. When Mutt did vocals, he'd only let Joe use one track, and he wouldn't let him go on to the second line of the song until he had the first line right. Would *erase* it until Joe got it right. "How am I supposed to feel the song if I'm jumping to the chorus!"

So, after all this shit over four and a half months, Jim was just like, "If I quit, they won't pay me. So I'm just gonna hold out until they fire my ass." He had some great dinners in Amsterdam and Paris on the band's dime, he ogled the car that later caused Rick Allen's crash (oddly enough, Jim remarked that the all-black Corvette looked like "a car of death"), and they ultimately paid him off with a big severance package. (Word on the street was two million copies of [italic]Hysteria[/italic] had to sell before they had the sum to pay him.) Def Leppard still has the tapes from the Steinman sessions, but they're not in any complete state and will never see release.

Jim's ultimate assessment? "Mutt did almost everything. He created them, and they were lost without him."

r102 r103 - WOW! Thanks so much!

Oh, hell, I got way more than that if anyone wants more Steinman stories.

R105, please Sir, may I have some more?

If anyone has specific questions, I'll be glad to elaborate. Or I could just come up with literally anything if we've already run out of the big questions.

[quote]It's too bad he hasn't had any luck with music theatre, because I think his music is inherently theatrical

I actually think "Streets of Fire" would make a FANTASTIC musical. The music is incredibly memorable, the story has energy,drive, romance , is morally superficial and the characters very black and white. There's an opportunity for some great set pieces.

[quote]"Streets of Fire" is a big guilty pleasure; I'm the only person I know who loves it

Don't feel guilty,baby....I love it too. Unabashedly.

Jim Steinman's side of the Def Leppard story is always so very...creative.

Don't believe everything you read, kids.

r109: As creative as the stories they put out about him having the wing of his hotel redesigned because he didn't care for the decor and charging it to them?

I've learned more about Steinman from this thread than from being a fan for 30-some years. Love it and thanks for the education! r77, do you know anything about his collaborations with Air Supply, Barry Manilow or Barbra Streisand? I remember reading he was miffed with Air Supply because they cut the 2-minute intro from "Making Love Out Of Nothing At All". I assume his version with Bonnie Tyler was how he produced the original.

First, than you very much for the info. I guess I am on the other side of the fence with Steinman. I had to look up Rick Allen because I had no idea who he is. Personally, I am glad his mother exposed him to opera and theater. Those are the influences that allow me to enjoy his music. (Too much opera and theater? Shut your mouth. There is no such thing!)

I am curious about his relationships with women. He clearly writes well for them. I think it is interesting that he refused for many years to allow Meat Loaf to record "It's all Coming Back to Me Now" as he considered it a woman's song. Did he bring Cher into Dead Ringer for Love? The never collaborated again, right? Is there a reason?

I would love to know more about More than You Deserve, but that is probably way before your time.

The music video for "Holding Out For A Hero" is interesting in that Bonnie Tyler is mostly photographed in long shot. In reminded me of the Tootsie 'Cleveland' joke.

R107 you're cool as Hell (or a Bat Out Of Hell?) for this spontaneous AMA.

If I may, do you know what Steinman was like as an adolescent, and how it came to be that he was kicked out of several schools in NY (as legend tells it?). I can't imagine the reason but I'm sure it must be wild. If you know anything about how his a day in his teenage or college life (he went to Amherst, right?) typically went I'd be glad to hear it - like, did he have a lot of friends? Did he often show up to class? I'd also be morbidly curious to know when and how he lost his virginity since the subject comes up so often in his songs, but it's understandable if that's too personal to disclose (or indeed, if you don't actually know).

Also, since Steinman is worth nearly a cool 50 million, I'd like to know just what he does with all his money. Is it spent all on rough trade and wine? Does he invest? Are all his shows/albums self-financed?

"Holding Out for a Hero" may not have been a hit but it's a song that's endured and so catchy and over-the-top and used in ads, movies, etc. that people don't realize it wasn't one.

Although it's not listed in the Soundtrack on IMDB, I could swear you hear Steinman's "Nowhere Fast" briefly in the 1982 horror film "Alone in the Dark" right before the babysitter and her boyfriend get killed by the psycho.

Not surprised to hear that Jim Steinman is gay. He did write Total Eclipse of the Heart, after all.

The very talented Christina Bianco sings "Total Eclipse" in the voices of a dozen divas

This comment on the YouTube page for Total Eclipse gave me a chuckle. "In science my teacher asked "Name a type of eclipse" and I said total eclipse of the heart and he looked at me like "what".

I didn't recall that "Holding Out For a Hero" was in Footloose.

I remember when I used to think Meat Loaf was fat and then I looked in the mirror.

Jim Steinman insider, thank you for sharing these fascinating stories! Add me to the list of folks who would love to hear any tales of Steinman's collaboration with Barbra Streisand!

R120, if I remember correctly, it's in the "chicken" scene with the combines/tractors.

[quote]Not surprised to hear that Jim Steinman is gay.

Has that been confirmed?

r111: In order, Jim characterized the boys from Air Supply as two of the most boring people he'd ever met (for their part, they claim they had to cut "Making Love..." down from a 20-minute version, which is something I've heard about every single one of his songs since day 1, so take it with a pinch); Barry Manilow was driven but he wasn't a fan of his music and hated that Barry rejected his original mix of "Read 'Em and Weep" (lots of guitars and loud drums in Jim's mix, not your typical Manilow record) -- I can add that they recorded another song together that hasn't seen release but wound up, melodically speaking, being part of "Vampires"; only thing I ever heard about Barbra was that he had to rewrite some lyrics on "Left in the Dark" because they clashed with her feminist ideals. (I've heard an alternate mix of that one that's better than the album as well. As much as I personally dislike him as a human being, I dunno why people felt the need to nitpick Steinman's work; he doesn't test well in any era. He's so outside the norm that he wouldn't fit in anywhere.)

r112: no such thing? Baby, it ain't just true. (Steinman fans can spot the reference on that one. :P) It's rumored Cher did a demo of "Rebel Without a Clue," one of the songs from the second Bonnie Tyler album Jim did, but I've never heard it if it does exist. I have no clue who brought Cher into the title track of "Dead Ringer," but I do know Karla DeVito was bumped from the vocal slot on that, and she's still not too thrilled about it to this day.

Speaking of Karla, I have a fun story about Meat Loaf's attempt to record "Dance In My Pants" in the no-voice days of '81, but that's one better told by Rory Dodd. And speaking of Meat, "All Coming Back" wasn't just subject to Jim's feeling that it's a woman's song (I happen to agree); it had to do with laws about covering songs. The process that makes covers possible (at least right now, though people -- both songwriters and artists -- have fought to change it for years) is a mechanical license. If it's been released in the U.S., all they have to do is pay the so-called "mechanical" fee to the publisher in order to record a song. However, this rule doesn't apply if the song hasn't been released in the U.S. yet, and "All Coming Back" hadn't been at the time Meat first wanted to record it; Meat had to ask Jim's permission. Jim said no, Meat tried to go ahead anyway, and because of that law, Jim was able to stop Meat with an injunction and unleash the new phase Celine Dion on the world. Of course, once Celine's version was released, it entered "mechanical fee" territory, as I describe above, and all Meat (and/or his people) had to do was pay the publisher, and it could be on any album he wanted, hence its appearance on "Bat III" (which is a whole other messy story in and of itself).

As for "More Than You Deserve," while I am indeed too young to have witnessed it, a lot more info -- and records -- has surfaced recently thanks to the efforts of a Steinman fan who wanted some insight into his early musicals and trawled the NYPL's arts division, with specific reference to the Joe Papp collection, where he found a ton of info on many projects Jim was involved with in his NY Shakespeare Festival days, including "More Than You Deserve" (an early script, audience recordings of the matinee and final performance on closing night, and demos of selections from the score have been floating around the fan community thanks to this guy for the past two or three years now). There's a YouTube channel called "dreampollution" where he's posted some of the sound files.

r114, from all accounts, Jim was actually a rather studious adolescent, not very rebellious except in his dreams perhaps; he was one of four National Merit Scholarship semifinalists the year he graduated from Hewlett High School. Small wonder for a kid raised on Beckett (saw the original productions of "Endgame," "Krapp's Last Tape," and "Happy Days"), Albee (big fan of "American Dream," "Zoo Story," and "Death of Bessie Smith"), and the Ring Cycle. One of those nerdy, hypochondriacal types, if his yearbook note to a friend was anything to go by.

It was at Amherst that he discovered acid and mescaline (he was in the same frat as David Eisenhower, so the Secret Service agents guarding the place meant it was totally safe, drug-wise, since the cops could never get in) and became more of a slacker. Was initially planning to be a film student, but got very involved in theater and rock bands, which eventually culminated in his "Dream Engine" piece. (Funny story tied to that one: he did that show as an Independent Study, but first he had to convince the... nominating committee, I guess... that he was worthy of the honor. They brought up his bad grades: "We see here that you got a 34 in Physics and a 19 in Calculus. How do you explain that?" To hear him tell it, he said, at a loss for a better answer, "Well... I was always better at science than math." In spite of themselves, they laughed, and they granted him the study.)

Virginity I have no clue about, but based on his lyrics (and his taste in poetry; he ripped off this obscure poem about fear of rape for the script to his "Bat" musical, though it has since been cut), I'd say it was terrifying. Probably not altogether consensual either. Which, really, would explain quite a bit about the man I know.

As for what he does with his money, it depends. Sometimes he can be extravagant in his spending, as with sinking a million of his own money into the Pandora's Box album when it went over budget. (Said album proceeded to tank overseas, and never made it to the U.S.) Sometimes he can be cheaper than free lunch, as exemplified by my experience with him. (I'm still debating whether or not to tell that story. It's a long one.)

Interesting that Cher may have demoed Rebel Without a Clue. I'm surprised she didn't do a whole album with Steinman since in the '80s she fancied herself a rocker (and Bonnie did back-up on her 1987 album and used some of the same songwriters and producers ie. Desmond Child in the late '80s).

Steinman's big bombastic rock was perfect for Cher, it is odd she never did more with him in the 80s.

R125, Thanks for the info. By the way, I did get the reference... which brings up the rest of the lyric "And there's no such thing as safe sex When it comes to loving you" Was the song dedicated to Barry Keating?

Can you link to the Rory Dodd /Karla DeVito story? Actually, any Karla DeVito stories.

I can't find it. Also, is "dreampolution" a private channel? I found some stuff posted by "the historian" and "Wario Loaf", but "dreampollution" brings up some black preacher.

Why did Papp not produce Dream Engine? The Wiki version does not make sense. A far more logical explanation would be that Amherst owned the rights since it was done as an independent study for the school, but that is never mentioned.

At this point there is no such thing (yeah, I did it again) as a "too long" story. By all means, tell yours. You have willing audience.

R77, I just want to say that you absolutely rule.

I am guessing that you are in the music industry- you are a wealth of knowledge about Steinman/Meatloaf and this thread is so much fun because of your info.

You have clearly had some kind of business relationship with Steinman and I hope you keep posting!

Please spill anything you know about other people in the music biz, your stories are great!

There have been a few fun "Ellen Foley vs. Karla DeVito"-related threads on DL over the years, so this thread is a real treat!

r112, oh, you're such a kidder. The Keating question had me in fits. xD As for the stories from Rory and Karla, I can't link to them; the stories Rory told me were in confidence (he's working on a book now and then, so it may yet see the light of day, and I wouldn't want to ruin his exclusive), and if you're friends with Karla on Facebook (she adds fans as well as industry people), you may have seen her make the off-hand comment that she was supposed to do "Dead Ringer" but it was not to be. Maybe I read the edge into it, but nonetheless it's what she said. As for "dreampollution," that's the username of the channel, but now that YouTube is all linked up to Google+, the display name is "The Historian." You found the right guy. :)

Here's how Papp's involvement with "Dream Engine" (and Steinman) went down: in the summer of '68, Steinman developed a rock musical adaptation of Bertolt Brecht's play "Baal" that was presented at a summer theater on Martha's Vineyard, the Island Repertory Theater (the artistic director was an Amherst professor). The title role was played by a miscast future fellow kiddie fiddler, Stephen Collins. The mostly adult audience from nearby Edgartown was put off by the loud rock score, so it didn't take off, but Jim kept working on it. In February of '69, Papp caught a workshop of "Baal" at Amherst, liked what he saw, said he'd be back to see it in the spring. That spring, "Baal" had become "Dream Engine" and was a runaway hit at the school. It eerily presaged the Manson Family and Kent State events to follow, sort of a hyper-violent apocalyptic response to the peace-love-and-adorable-hippie-shit of "Hair." Papp wanted to bring it to the city, signed Steinman up, and that's where the trials began. First, the Delacorte story actually did happen; I mean, this was a three-hour rock epic with killer nuns, performed largely in the nude. No way it wasn't gonna cause riots like the Living Theater. So, they shifted their goals. By July of '69, their aim was to present it in early '70 at the Newman Theatre (then being built) within the Public complex, but when the venue was completed, there was no way it could suit the work's artistic demands. There was enough buzz that Warner Records wanted to do a cast album, but when Steinman auditioned the score (complete with nihilistic, violent lyrics and rushed tempi) for them at the height of the singer-songwriter era, they basically threw him out on his ass.

So the best hope was another production. In '71, Steinman began developing "Dream Engine" with Arena Stage in D.C., and it hit the workshop phase in early '72, this time with Richard Gere starring. But Jim and the director, a guy named Richard Pearlman, kept crossing swords, so the final production fell victim to their fighting. The search was on for a new director; Jim cut some demos of the score (produced by Michael Kamen at the Hit Factory) featuring himself and a young vocalist for hire named Bette Midler hoping they would ease that job. At the same time, trying to make this very un-commercial piece more palatable to investors, they were in talks to bring in David Bowie to star (funny, considering he did Brecht's original "Baal" himself later in his career), but when that fizzled out, Jim and Joe said "fuck it" and moved on to other work, such as "More Than You Deserve."

My story will come later. For now, I'm content to answer other questions. However, I'll start by clearing up some misconceptions. r130, thanks for the compliment! However, I am not in the music industry per se; I'm a producer, mainly in theater, though lately my team has been moving more into film and possibly television down the pike as well. I haven't produced anything you guys would know, and my team would be most memorable to people who are veterans of the Off-Broadway scene in the Eighties and Nineties. Having said that, in addition to modern updates of the classics, one thing my crew is particularly known for is elementing star talents into our pieces, so we [italic]have[/italic] had occasion to meet people in the music industry.

Thank you again, Steinman insider, for sharing these fascinating stories! Someone mentioned Ellen Foley upthread, and it reminded that at the time of "Bat Out of Hell", the official story of why she wasn't in the videos or on tour was because of scheduling conflicts. But a friend told me that in a more recent interview (part of a retrospective on the album) Meat Loaf said that it was decided to replace Foley with DeVito because the latter was a more magnetic onstage performer. Is this true?

Another thanks to r77 for all the great stories! And I've never seen any Ellen Foley vs Karla DeVito stuff on Datalounge so anyone feel free to re-post the scoop here.

Oh, R135, the older DL threads on Ellen Foley and Karla DeVito that I remember (which you can probably access by doing a search in the archives) weren't about them feuding, they were about who folks preferred as a singer.

They're both great singers, but Foley gets the edge with me!

The Foley vs. DeVito stuff is mildly ironic, given recent events; if you listen to their guest appearances on Meat's final album on the song "Going All the Way" (familiar to any "Vampires" fans, incidentally), their voices have been so heavily processed that you can just barely tell them apart, and only if you really know their voices well. (The heavy processing was necessary, as Meat's legendary voice has long rung up the curtain and joined the choir invisible; I swear, he's so heavily tuned on the album that he sounds like a robot singing through the active filter on an aquarium. Once they did it to Meat's voice, they then had to do it to everybody's so it didn't stand out, and most other talent on the album kinda suffers for that.)

r134, I have heard that the [italic]Bat[/italic] situation was "some from Column A, some from Column B": Ellen did genuinely have her own career stuff going on (IIRC, she herself was starting to develop her solo career, and wasn't all that keen on joining Meat on the road and only being showcased in certain numbers), and they thought Karla might be a better fit for the stage show. To correct someone upthread (I'm not using Ctrl + F to see exactly who), she did not lip-synch to Ellen during live appearances unless it was either a music video or a TV show where lip-synching was called for; Karla did her own vocals live, and did them quite well.

Keep it coming, folks, I'm as glad to chat about it as you are to ask!

The Steinman Insider is already my favourite DL poster ever. Such great stories; no bullshit. And the little details he gives are just fabulous. I'm really curious to who he is and what he does, but sometimes mystery is better.

It's too bad Cher, Taylor Dayne, and Celine Dion didn't do full albums with Steinman or of Steinman material because they were well-matched with him.

Agreed, I've enjoyed DL for years, and R77/ Steinman Insider has already become one of my favorite posters EVER! Can't thank you enough for your interesting and informative stories!

Guys, stop it, you're makin' me blush! xD In all honesty, when it comes to spilling tea, I prefer to emulate Addison deWitt. As Eve Harrington once said of him, "Imagine how snide and vicious he could get and still tell nothing but the truth." Why embellish? Just say what you know, nothing more, nothing less. (And if I'm able to be proved wrong, then I welcome other sides of the story, but otherwise, I just say what I know.)

[quote] my team would be most memorable to people who are veterans of the Off-Broadway scene in the Eighties and Nineties.

Then we probably at least know of each other. No such thing as too much theater... when one depends on it for a paycheck.

r112/r141, are you familiar with, say, [italic]Star Crossed Lovers[/italic] (it played all over the city in various Off-Broadway venues from '84 til around '89) or [italic]Brown Unbound[/italic] (Village Gate, starred Herb Rawlings and Ernestine Jackson)? If so, then you might have a nodding acquaintance with the people I work with. They gave me my start in this wonderful, horrible old business when I was 15.

Gotta love this video with its "Wendy gang raped by the Lost Boys while Steinman watches" theme. He did seem to like the nearly naked twink dancers in these videos.

[quote]The heavy processing was necessary, as Meat's legendary voice has long rung up the curtain and joined the choir invisible; I swear, he's so heavily tuned on the album that he sounds like a robot singing through the active filter on an aquarium.

This is hilarious because he still sounds like shit on the finished album. I guess you can't really polish a turd. I actually thought DeVito and Foley sounded pretty good but you're right I can't really tell which of them is singing where.

The dead giveaway to Ellen's presence is how she forms vowels; for example, in the word "hair," it'll sound like it has two or three syllables, depending on how long she stretches out the notes, almost like an overwrought Blanche DuBois, or for that matter Blanche Devereaux ("hay-er" is the closest I can come to spelling it phonetically). I mean, she was born in St. Louis, so it's got to be what's left of her accent.

As for Meat, yeah, one can only polish a turd so much before someone else eventually looks at it and says, "I mean, you polished it really well and everything, but it's still a turd." It's a testament to how far gone his voice is; going back to about 2003, his voice has needed more and more studio processing, but it was less noticeable when there was still something there to work with. Over the past 10 or 11 years, it's gotten progressively worse with every album, until at the end of his career, we're left with essentially how he sounds live: alternating shouting and whispering, with the occasional note that breaks through the mess. He sort of sounds more like Bob Dylan or Lou Reed than Meat Loaf now.

r77, do you have any info on his work with Bonnie Tyler on her Free Spirit album where she re-recorded Making Love Out Of Nothing At All and Two Out Of Three Ain't Bad? I read an interview with Nicki French (who had a hit with the dance version of Total Eclipse... in the 90s) and she said she recorded demo vocals for a dance version of Two Out Of Three for Steinman. As I recall she claimed (or theorized) that he was annoyed that the dance cover had become such a hit and felt he could produce a better dance track of one of his songs. She said the Bonnie Tyler version had pretty much the same exact backing track as the one she recorded.

Now I see French was signed to Steiman's label Ravenous Records and did record an unreleased version of the song but that was in 2000, five years after Tyler's version was released. I suppose she could have demoed the song back before she was signed to his label and before Tyler recorded her version. Or I could be mis-remembering the interview (very possible as this was many years ago on some long deleted forum.) Just wondered if you knew anything about the evolution of that version of the song or him working with French.

r146, all I can offer on that count is speculation. I can see Jim being annoyed that a version of his song was successful without him; I can also see Jim trying to co-opt some of that success both with and without the person responsible. (Case in point: when Christina Bianco did her "multiple celebrities sing Total Eclipse" cover, he posted not long afterwards on Facebook about cutting an actual single of it with her and asking fans what impressions they'd like to hear on a version he produced. That talk led to no action that I know of, which is typical of 21st century Steinman, and really much of 20th century Steinman as well, not that he was a hot enough commodity for anybody to hear about it that often.)

Steinman cutting demos that never see the public eye is also very, very common. For those who remember his Pandora's Box song that I jokingly made reference to with another poster elsewhere in this thread, "Safe Sex," he tried to make that happen well after its original release with a popular American vocalist whose name I won't mention (hint: think hand-eye coordination -- "HAND EYYYYY-EEE-YYYYE...") , but the label rejected it because the backing track hadn't changed one note from its Eighties incarnation and it sounded too dated. Jim thought it couldn't be improved upon, so the next time he was working with a vocalist (this time a potential star, not an established one, named Karine Hannah), he just swapped in the new girl's voice and hoped they wouldn't notice. The response was, "Uh, Jim, the voice wasn't the problem last time. It's still the same track. Next time, please bring us something that is legitimately new and not a retread, and take instruction when we tell you we don't like the sound of something." Many times, his stubborn bullshit is what shoots him in the foot.

R143 is that Steinman...singing? 0_o

He sounds like Kermit the Frog.

Yes, that's Jim singing. He once tried to defend it by saying he was singing in a key meant for Meat Loaf well above his normal range, but I've heard him sing on demos (see the YouTube channel I recommended to the poster above), and he sounds pretty much like Kermit the Frog (when Kermit was in high school and thought over-emoting every word was the definition of acting) on everything he himself has ever recorded. (Except for the Batman musical demos he composed; on the Joker's song, his voice has deepened enough that he now merely sounds -- oddly enough -- like an Adam West impression of the Jim Steinman that came before.)

Steinman sounds like a REAL asshole with major issues.

R77- Let's get down to brass tacks (and again, I LOVE your posts)

Steinman is a fucking dick!!!

But I will ask you to maybe list some good qualities that you have witnessed?

Good qualities... good qualities... I'm not gonna lie, r150, they're in short supply, and it's not just my jaundiced view of him. That said, aside from the obvious good qualities (i.e., his songwriting abilities, though he is given a tad too much to recycling), he is occasionally given to some generosity. For example, one of the people who worked on his script for the "Bat" musical was suffering from a variety of ailments -- the guy's never been all that specific about exactly what he was suffering from, but his laundry list of symptoms has included chronic fatigue, clinical depression, limitless anxiety, and also he recently had a hematoma erupt in his left eye -- and Jim paid the bill for his medical treatment.

Although it probably shouldn't bode well that I have to strain to remember a generous occasion...

Thanks, r77/147. After thinking about it, maybe French said that the version she recorded just used the same backing track as Tyler's even though it was recorded later. Like I said, I read this years ago and don't remember the details very well.

Very interesting about Safe Sex. I've always really liked that one and felt like it could have been a hit. Celine Dion's version of It's All Coming Back doesn't differ dramatically to the Pandora's Box version and that was huge so in some ways I can see Steinman's point of view. As you said elsewhere, Steinman's music is so far outside what's mainstream that trying to make it sound "current" is rather pointless. (His dance version of Two Out of Three for Bonnie Tyler being a good example; it sounded dated even when released.)

Not sure when this was offered to the "hand-eye" artist (love it!) but I wonder if maybe there weren't some PC concerns about making light of the AIDS epidemic. I know it might sound ridiculous but listening to the lyrics in a post-HIV world I can imagine some people worrying it might come across as advocating reckless sexual behavior or suggesting the risk was somehow worth it. I'm probably overthinking it and it was just the more overt sexual nature of the lyrics that might have brought up concerns about radio play and controversy. I don't think hand-eye would have been a good match for it anyway. I actually would love to hear what Annie Lennox might have done with it.

See, r152, that's what I didn't get about his stubbornness. Yes, Jim's music doesn't fit into any era, but he is capable of at least trying. Using the example you cite, Celine's version doesn't differ dramatically, but there *are* enough differences that it could have appeased the suits if he had similarly stripped out the more dated or ostentatious elements of "Safe Sex," maybe changed up the arrangement a bit and added some overdubs. He could still have his perfect backing track with only slight modifications.

Funnily enough, a version of "Safe Sex" that he recorded with that group he was putting together around 2006, The Dream Engine (can't let go of a name any more than he could a tune, that man), seemed to have basically done what he did with Celine's "All Coming Back": stripped out the more dated or ostentatious elements of the backing track, changed the arrangement some, and added overdubs, at least from what I could discern in the two 30-second samples that they put out. Apparently, he'll only do it when he decides it's worth the effort. :P

I don't know when it was offered to hand-eye, but for the suits to be saying it sounded dated, it would have to be at least mid-to-late Nineties, early 2000's. In the early Nineties, he was still getting away with the heavily synthesized blood-and-thunder approach on Bat II even though that sound was on its way out, as the explosion of alternative/grunge took hold, so they wouldn't have objected at that time. Then again, in a BBC Radio 1 interview with Simon Bates around the time of Bat II, he did mention that he was working on retooling the Pandora's Box album for the States with some replacement vocalists. Was hand-eye still small enough in the Nineties to be pushed into a "group" setting (even a studio-only group), or was she already too big for that?

This thread has gone in places I could never have imagined. It's fascinating, informative and shows some of the best of what DL can be about.

--OP, who started with a slim knowledge, a love for "Streets of Fire," and that whole eclipse thing

I'm getting the sense that the thread is starting to run its course, so to revive interest (this has been a fun part of my day, after all; I always like to talk about something I have a lot of knowledge about), I think it's high time I shared the story of my association, such as it was, with Jim. It's a little long, as I've said before, and at times it verges on unbelievable (there are parts of it I still don't quite understand how they happened myself), so -- as the old British saying goes -- "the band played believe me if you will." I don't really care what parts people believe or don't believe, I'm just here to share like I shared everything else.

Okay. This story starts with me, a Nineties kid. Like, literally (I turned 27 this year, so I mean *literally*). People have always said I was a child born out of time, because I had way more interest in yesterday's hits than today's favorites; I was regularly the only something (i.e., only second/third grader who knew [italic]Jesus Christ Superstar[/italic] inside and out, only fifth grader who was a Beatles fanatic, only seventh grader who was obsessed with [italic]Hair[/italic], shit like that, with an increasingly musical theater lean that should have been a clue to my sexually confused young self). Of Steinman, I only knew that my mother had gotten [italic]Bat Out of Hell[/italic] from Columbia House (remember them?) when I was a kid and I remembered liking how ridiculous it was, and that he'd written the lyrics to a late-period Lloyd Webber piece called [italic]Whistle Down the Wind[/italic] which came of age as I was discovering the Internet. (That's one show that I still really like in spite of its flaws; I feel like I know how to produce it and make money in the right target market. But that's for another DL thread, if anyone ever talks about "fixer-upper" musicals here.)

I collaborated on what amounted to a misbegotten student musical, later much revised and mounted without anything I wrote for it (thankfully; in looking back, it was rather amateur "edgelord" shit that I wouldn't want my name on now), with a Steinman fanatic who peppered his script with allusions to numbers from Steinman musicals when specifying how the music should sound -- and I mean deep cuts, even specifying some [italic]Dream Engine[/italic] stuff. I said to myself, "Well, I guess you better familiarize yourself with some Steinman shit so you know what he's talking about." That led to a Christmas splurge where I received copies of [italic]Dead Ringer[/italic], [italic]Bat II[/italic], [italic]Bad for Good[/italic], [italic]Original Sin[/italic], all the major ones, and fell deeply in love with his music and his style. It's not too big a stretch to say that Jim's stuff got me through high school, through my mother's divorce, and influenced a lot of my artistic leanings now. I particularly loved the European version of [italic]Dance of the Vampires[/italic], which was much better than the mess that played Broadway, and I had this fantasy that one day I would do the ultimate production of the original in English, and set the record straight. I really needed to be careful what I wished for...

(TO BE CONTINUED)

Thanks for everything so far, R77. I'm a Nineties kid and a theater geek too (even had the same JCSS obsession you did, as it happens ;)) and in spite of the somewhat disappointing outcome for you it's still kinda cool you got so close to Steinman and get a look inside of his head.

I have a couple more questions, if you still feel like answering; did Jim ever disclose exactly what the significance of the phrase 'Bat out of Hell' was? I know about the 'Batman' connection already (and I have a morbid curiosity to see his 'Batman' produced one day, so please elaborate more on that if you feel able) and I also see how it fits into Steinman's trademark of colloquial phrases for song titles...but is there anything else to it? I'd also love to know if Jim had any input commissioning the Fangoria-esque artwork for the BOOH trilogy, and how it fit into his vision.

r156, I'll get to your questions in a sec; I was continuing my story as you replied. ;)

At the same time as I was developing my Steinman obsession and struggling with high school, when I was about 16 or so, I met a New York auteur who wanted to develop my latent talent as a producer, the guy who began my baptism of fire into the legitimate business. (In addition to original credits of his that I listed at r142, this guy had also directed the first Off-Broadway revival of [italic]Hair[/italic] in 1980 and the first -- and, to date, only -- all-black company of [italic]Godspell[/italic] in Harlem in the Nineties.) By coincidence, he'd worked with Keating before on an original musical, and as a result had come to know Steinman as well. (That's a whole other gory story best told by him.) Suffice to say, he knew they were poison, and warned me, and having seen the version of [italic]Vampires[/italic] that hit Manhattan, he advised me that the show wasn't really worth the pursuing, even if the European version was better. But he's a softy... I was a young wunderkind like he had once been, and he's a big proponent of learning by experience, even with what he considered (still does) an unremarkable show.

Filled with youthful enthusiasm, I swore I would make things right for [italic]Vampires[/italic]. I decided with typical bravado that I would save it. And I started by going straight to the horse's mouth. The Steinman fanatic I worked on the student musical with had once looked up Jim Steinman's phone number online, and found it. (He wasn't unlisted at the time; that he is now suggests he came to regard this since working with me as a security oversight. :P) Doing what my student friend dared not do, I cold-called Jim, and he, not knowing me from Adam (so to speak), gave me his private email address to speak about the project, and a line of correspondence was opened up. A few people in Jim's camp, who already knew me as what they considered an Internet nuisance (like many back then), tried to put me off the trail, but I soldiered on.

I got as far as talking to Jim's lawyer and the rights holders about it, and they seemed to indicate that if I had funding, they would proceed with my vision for the project (which, by now, involved a popular fan translation that used a lot of Jim's material and padded it with original work in aiming at a closer adaptation of the German). Holy shit. I was that close, at 16. And it was a blessing and a curse. For everything else I'd spun a good line of B.S. for someone my age for, I was not prepared for "Show us the money." That bid died on the vine. I kept talking to them periodically, however, hoping I could stir some interest once I'd done stuff with my boss and had my own money to throw at it. I also, in my youthful naivete (I would never again expose my trump card well before it was worth playing), confronted Steinman with the tea my boss had spilled about he and them, and Jim essentially responded, not that it wasn't true, but that he was a shit for telling me. So he and his were not too pleased with me, but I did remain in their sights.

I know you think that's where it ends, but it's not. It's only Act One.

r156, to quickly answer your questions:

1) No, he never disclosed its significance. I think he's said over the years that it was a phrase that he heard often in sportscasts and seized upon (knowing his obsession with cliches of the English language, one could almost believe it), but he was also big on comparing the Indians and Lost Boys -- not that one would recognize them as either of those things -- in his Peter Pan musical (finally seeing the light of day as [italic]Bat: The Musical[/italic]) to the gangs in [italic]West Side Story[/italic], so I wouldn't be surprised -- in fact, I think it more likely -- if it was a reference to the "Jet Song" (one of the closing verses is "Here come the Jets / Like a bat out of hell / Someone gets in our way / Someone don't feel so well"). He takes little bits and pieces of everything from his influences, sometimes word for word or note for note.

2) I'd love to elaborate more on [italic]Batman[/italic], but sadly, what I know about it is what everyone else knows about it. I've attached a great link to a fan site that collects most of the information that is known about the show that never came to be, and it's incidentally run by the guy I developed that student musical with; he thinks it's one of Steinman's great unrealized opuses. I tried to learn more about it from an insider standpoint, by trying to interview David Ives for the guy's website, but I met with Ives saying he'd signed some sort of non disclosure on the subject, so I got nothing.

3) [italic]Bat I[/italic] and [italic]II[/italic], yes. [italic]Bat III[/italic], no; the cover, much like the album, was Meat's baby, and Jim was only reluctantly involved in that one.

Shit, forgot the link! Here it is! Very in-depth and enlightening on the subject of Steinman's [italic]Batman[/italic].

Back to my story... Act Two commences!

Okay, so we come to about the time I was beginning my junior year of high school. [italic]Bat Out of Hell: The Musical[/italic] had just been formally announced (it was first teased in 2006 when Jim was trying to compete with Meat's attempt to do a [italic]Bat[/italic] album without him for the most part, [italic]Bat III[/italic]), and my boss knew what I did: a) it would take forever to put together, and b) it would probably be a shitpile when it emerged, because Jim can't write a workable script to save his life. (Read [italic]Dream Engine[/italic] or [italic]Neverland[/italic] some time; they're both on his site. They read like a coke-fueled nightmare blending strains of Brecht, Peter Pan, and Fifties sci-fi in an Off-Off-Broadway theater of the absurd goulash, and he's only gotten marginally better at telling a coherent story since. The songs, on the other hand, have much improved, although due to his rampant recycling they all sound the same; a friend of his once joked that when you put the themes and motifs together, Jim's work is just a symphony with lots of movements.)

At any rate, my boss and I, on what amounted to a whim, put aside our mutual misgivings about Steinman and his team as people and wrote Jim offering my boss for the book slot on [italic]Bat[/italic], because this project was a potential goldmine, and my boss is the fastest working quality writer in the industry. We could springboard a lot of original projects off the back of involvement in this show, and probably deliver something better than Jim had come up with. Almost as an afterthought, my boss threw in, as a little gift for me more than anything, that he could also fix [italic]Vampires[/italic] and give him a working English version at last. Can you imagine how delighted I felt when Jim got back to us and said yes to the [italic]Vampires[/italic] bid? Completely bypassed the [italic]Bat[/italic] question -- which honestly I had expected, even though it was the project my boss really wanted -- but hey, I had my wish at long last! (In fact, in looking over the correspondence to assemble this story for DL, I just realized today is the tenth anniversary of Jim giving us the go-ahead. Funny, that. :P)

I set about my duties, familiarizing my boss with the German version of the show (he'd only ever seen the NY version when Keating was trying to obtain complete control of a musical he had developed with my boss; after seeing Michael Crawford die onstage, both in character and figuratively, he predictably told Barry and Jim to get fucked). While he still didn't think it was a masterpiece, he did come to admire the same qualities I liked about the European edition.

(For a brief summary of what went wrong in America, I will simply quote George Abbott, Broadway's greatest all-time musical comedy director: "If you play it for comedy, it won't work. If you play it for real, it will." The Euro take played it for real, with a much darker, subtler sense of humor, albeit punctuated at times with shtick that wouldn't have translated so well; the American for comedy, with an ultra-campy, slapstick, Mel Brooks type sensibility, and all without bothering to change the score any to match its new script. I get the sense that the American team were trying for the same idea the [italic]Young Frankenstein[/italic] musical ultimately had, but both failed; sending up imported pop operas only reminds American audiences why they stopped watching them a long time ago. They don't look back on that type of theater fondly enough to laugh with it, and they already laugh at it without being told. Stand your show up for what it actually is instead of apologizing for it with a leer, and they may not like it, but the public will give you points for trying; just look at anything Frank Wildhorn wrote, or [italic]A Tale of Two Cities[/italic].)

Now, we may have been born in the morning, but it wasn't the morning before we wrote Jim, so we weren't just going to do this rehab for nothing. We don't do spec work for people who can pay.

(TBC)

R77, So, I have the timeline wrong? I thought your mentor was mentioned as a possible translator in the early stages of bringing Vampire over to the US.

Yes, r161, you have the timeline wrong. This came well after the flop, which explains part of the trouble we had putting it together.

R77, Thanks. FYI, I was sort of involved with Rebecca; so, I know a bit about the difficulties of translating a German musical into English. Personally, I am thrilled Rebecca never happened. Vampires should have been a bit easier, but god only knew what they were thinking with that mess.

Oh, then you're used to what we saw, r163; they handed us Michael Kunze's original English translation to show us what we were up against, and it was like reading the work of a middling ESL student. I'm sure he's wonderful in German or he wouldn't be so popular over there, but in English, he's not that great. (I'd love to talk off DL some time and compare notes, if there's any way that's possible.)

The saga continues!

When last we left off, my boss and I were not just gonna volunteer our services on [italic]Vampires[/italic] for free. We wanted something out of the deal; didn't have to be money per se, as long as it was something to indicate we weren't jacking off in the wind. So we asked Jim, basically, what's the prize for this rewrite? He told us when it was done, he would inform the necessary parties (Roman Polanski, the German co-author Michael Kunze, the copyright holders) of the translation's existence and we would proceed from there. We offered to show him our version in a private reading or a sing-down of the score (or both), and Jim said that if we were willing to go to the trouble, he'd absolutely be willing to view it privately. Already, just hearing that, the deal was starting to look better; true, [italic]Vampires[/italic] still had flop stench from NY, but now we were on a project involving an Oscar-winning director and two Grammy-winning songwriters, one of whom was the darling of the European theater world. Not quite [italic]Bat[/italic] level of prestige, but something that we could massage, use to our advantage, whatever.

From November 2007 to January 2009, when not working on our own projects, we were busy with show-related research/development and my boss was cranking out drafts of the new [italic]Vampires[/italic] script. Ultimately, there were 22, all total. He had help, in the form of a young artist whose original material we were developing at the time and who happened to be a massive Steinman/[italic]Vampires[/italic] fan. We also recorded a handful of rough demos (4 or 5, if memory serves, using karaoke tracks that were released for fans in Europe) with our lyrics to his score that were very well-received by the people who heard them.

The final product wound up being very similar in form, meaning, and spirit to the German version, and played brilliantly in English, while also having its own unique sense of poetry, language, etc., geared to the sensibilities of an English-speaking audience. It was more faithful than we wanted it to be (to name one example of a big change that got shot down, we asked permission to interpolate the other big Bonnie Tyler song, "Holding Out for a Hero," thinking it would be effective for a specific moment toward the end of Act One, but were denied), but we did manage to get away with a few minor departures: some pruning and splicing of scenes, a minor reassignment of one song. We anticipated making more changes during the rehearsal process for the reading / sing-down / both, but it played very well as it was.

During the above, summer '08 (after I graduated from high school), Jim once again affirmed that Polanski would see the finished product, and in December of '08, we decided to release info about the project to the public, and a small announcement that the script was nearing completion reached the Internet. It was roundly ignored by Jim's fans; as I mentioned earlier, I had a checkered past as a kid, and unfortunately remnants of it are still permanently enshrined on the Internet for people to find. I often feel bad for the subjects of certain Encyclopedia Dramatica entries (or, for that matter, DL threads), because while some of them are truly heinous people, I can see that others might've just been mixed-up kids like I was. At any rate, because of that checkered past, they didn't buy what we were selling -- what the hell ever, didn't need their validation to continue working on it.

In early January 2009, we closed the book on Draft 22D, and sent that to Jim. We also sent it to some industry folks as a sample of boss-man's work, which we often do. Everyone agreed that it was the best version in existence. And because of the circles in which we sent it out, it got around, fast: star talent wanted to be involved; major U.S. film studio distributors said they could get a deal for it if we got the thumbs up; even Steinman's own staff recommended it for production upon reading it.

(TBC)

On with the story! (Apologies for the formatting error in the last post.)

So... we didn't expect this at all, but now there was serious action. Celebrities wanted in (to be specific, one wanted in, the other only wanted in once it reached a full production because he had just done a workshop on his first Broadway musical outing and didn't want to join at the development phase again), a film distributor thought they could get us a deal. I mean, not even the musical of [italic]Carrie[/italic] got a resurrection this good, and that was more dead (or undead, pick your poison) than this one. We had almost single-handedly revitalized a tainted brand, for however briefly the window of opportunity would be open. So we set about casting, trying to put together the reading and strike while the iron was hot.

Only problem was, Jim wasn't talking. Aside from hearing at one point that he had sent the script to the most important parties, and affirming at another that we could go ahead with the reading and he would bring producers and money people, he had suddenly gone dead silent. Incommunicado, within three to four months of the spring reading we'd planned. This guy had commissioned our translation/rewrite, had furthered our efforts, and now he wasn't talking right when we needed his input. It wouldn't be good faith to anyone involved to proceed without his input, so we shelved it temporarily. The buzz was still considerable, but began to cool slightly the longer he kept his mouth shut.

Finally, in March, we figured we'd make overtures to the European rights holders ourselves, if Jim was going to give us the silent treatment, so I wrote him a letter about a question that still needed to be answered and had eluded our research: who, specifically, held the English rights. He broke his silence and gave us a rough idea of who might own them. And within a few weeks, he started talking again. Turned out he'd been gravely ill. Like, open-heart surgery ill. (One rock and roll too many, to borrow a phrase from a musical by a one-time collaborator of his.) And he told us if we could move it to the summer, he'd be well enough to come to the reading, and further he affirmed he'd get everyone to come, that he was excited, that he was looking forward to it. Okay, we move it to summer. Not ideal, but it gives us more time to plan and line up the best talent.

But there were signs of... issues. Example: Jim put us in touch with the show's orchestrator, Steve Margoshes, to help us prepare a reduced arrangement for the reading. Margoshes sent us in a circle back to Jim, saying Jim saved tracks of the cast album without the vocals, and we could do the reading to those. Not the optimal choice, but we went back to Jim. Jim didn't know where they were and referred us to his co-producer/audio consultant, Steven Rinkoff, who gave us... no answer. Another example: We asked Jim for a face-to-face meeting to discuss some logistics, and he said, "Not possible right now, I'll go with whatever you decide." Encouraging, but slightly disconcerting, 'cause in spite of all of this, we remembered Jim wasn't the most forthright or decent person. But hey, we're already balls deep into this job, and we can drop it if/when action develops on one of our own (especially since it's not like we're being paid for this one), so we'll press on anyway.

We lined up some talent tentatively for the reading, we were gonna hold an open call for smaller parts, we had a space in mind (one of the spaces at Lincoln Center off the beaten track), and it was our impression that, at the rights holders' discretion, our version would open in the West End. So we started making more noise on the Internet, trying to build up a groundswell of support from the show's fan base, which lamented the English flop. Imagine our surprise in May 2010, only a month before we were seriously getting ready to roll, when the European rights holders got in touch, telling us they had neither heard of nor authorized a reading, nor were they interested in doing so.

(TBC)

Continuing, nearing the home stretch... holy cow, I think we're gonna make it!

We appealed to Jim for help, and he'd said we'd need to get the rights holders behind us if we wanted to do it (gee, Jim, I thought you said that was your job). We begged him, "Please talk to them and defend our work, get us our shot, you owe us at least that" -- to which he said, "I approved a reading before, and I still approve now; get a private reading up." In other words, basically, coercing us to do it illegally, and if we're caught, all the worse for us.

We were faced with a quandary. On the one hand, such readings are theoretically a legal gray area; in a private room, with the doors locked, and no one any the wiser, what does it matter if it's illegal? We see the work up, no harm, no foul; we're fine with that if it never reaches their ears. But if it does reach their ears, and they're already on record as telling us they didn't authorize the reading, we are six ways to fucked. And either way, we need money to do it.

Evidently bad news travels fast; we quietly searched for money, but we ran into the stumbling block of all illegal stage work: for no return on their investment, and with no official license, we would never get the money for it. (This was saying nothing of the fact that the show still had flop stench in spite of our writing; around the same time, we were seeking representation, and included the rewrite in our portfolio. The agent told us in no uncertain terms, "What is that piece of shit doing in your beautiful catalogue? Take it out.")

Knowing Jim to be a Grammy-winning, hit record-selling songwriter, who (even if he got screwed business-wise) still be must worth at least 50 million conservatively, we said, "Jim, you gotta get the cash out of your own pocket for this if you wanna do it, no one's going to throw money after this unless they're a real fan, and no one is." To which Jim said, in essence: "I thought you knew where to find that kind of money. I don't have it, and at any rate, I'm busy with my stuff." Cheap bastard, after breaking his promise and stringing us along, couldn't even pony up for a little reading with a small cast and musicians.

So, on the one hand, I did fix my favorite flop, and it's the best version it will ever see. On the other, no one can see it, only a few people know the fixed version exists, and nobody wants to roll up their sleeves and get it going with a little money or an official license that could get us a little money. I still have the finished script (Draft 22D; the only changes since closing the cover in January 2009 have been light edits to match cuts made to later European revivals), blocking notes, cast lists, 40 pieces of correspondence, 5 demos, and a document devoted to reconstructing the score for a smaller band on a shoestring (no thanks to the people who were supposed to help us with that task) for the show that never was.

As John Lennon once said, "This is my story both humble and true; take it to pieces and mend it with glue." I welcome follow-up questions, and will answer them to the best of my ability. May not necessarily be able to name names, but as with hand-eye, I will give hints.

You've left the biz?

Nope, still working in it; this was just a massive pain in the ass, for my first major project -- one that I had fought and advocated for, and furthered -- to blow up in my face. We have many other irons in the fire, and are moving increasingly into film and television with work of our own instead.

So you're not concerned about getting a reputation for being indiscreet?

I'm in the fringes; by the time I reach the front lines, this will be in my distant past. And approaching this specific project again will only come when most of the people involved are gone -- given the shots fired from both sides, I would have to wait for both Steinman and my boss to have joined the choir invisible before I could even think about touching it again. There'll be no trouble about any of this, specifically, 30 years from now.

r77, if I ever win the Powerball I'll invest in your version!

Thanks for that vote of confidence, r172! xD

In all seriousness, though, that's actually the kind of investor that my boss and I postulated we would need if we ever wanted to make a serious go of the reading: a Steinman fan who really wanted to see the European version in English, with money to burn, who would willingly throw money at a reading just for the thrill of being involved and knowing they'd never see it again.

R77, that is fascinating. Best of luck with your current & future projects.

Serious question: what if anything of all that work do you legally own? Can an unofficial, unlicensed version of another's original work be copyrighted? Seems dubious at best. I hope there are some protections in place for you, if it is as good as you say (I honestly believe it must be)

Thanks so much, r174! We'll certainly need it.

To answer your serious question, it has not been formally copyrighted (though it is registered with WGAE), but a quick Google indicates that our translation (whether authorized or not) would probably fall under the laws, provisions, and registration stipulations concerning derivative work, were we to copyright it. We own our translation, and that's all we own. A fuller and more accurate answer would follow when we copyright it formally, and I'm pretty sure we're only going that route if it's actually being produced, which, as I said above, will have to be a ways off before that's feasible.

Years ago there was a thread here about "Power Ballads," and one of my favorite W&W responses came from it:

"Bonnie Tyler used to be the Queen of the Power Ballad, until she was totally eclipsed by Heart."

R77 at the risk of sounding facetious...if this really is your passion project, could you not go out on a limb and take a little time off to stage it as an amateur production? That's how most shows get off the ground.

I don't know your circumstances of course, and wouldn't like to presume. It's tough out there for all of us and especially for artists, and I agree that you should be recompensed for your work. But that dream investment might never come, and in that case is it alright that your brilliance dies with you?

I wish you all the best with it, too. If (or when!) it comes to stage I will certainly be first in line for tickets.

Amateur productions have to apply for a licence, so don't worry about sounding facetious.

r177, we have explored the possibility of bringing in outside partners to obtain a license (be it for a professional or amateur setting), but it hasn't been a major priority, in part because we have a huge slate of projects of our own to get to. [italic]Vampires[/italic] is already an involved situation as it is, and trying to get around the current barriers would only result in agita, and for what result? Aside from restoring hurt pride, it would result in not much coin in our pocket, because the royalties are already divvied up at least once because of the original production(s). We stand to make way more money from our original pieces than we would from our adaptation of someone else's work.

That said, it really is my passion project, and though not immediately, the day will come when I return to it again. Our genius will not die with me. My (not-so-)secret hope is that, once we launch some imminent projects of our own and hopefully become a hot ticket, [italic]they[/italic] come knocking at [italic]our[/italic] door once someone connects the dots that "the guys behind (such-and-such)" were the same team that did the [italic]Vampires[/italic] translation they shut down.

Thank you for your future ticket purchase -- I hope to see you there!

Had a dream about r77 who is posting such good shit on this thread

His stories rung with the sound of real life, and so we savored every story we read

Had a dream about an elderly Steinman googling hard for his name every day

And if he finds us and he wants to reply, who can guess just what the fuck he will say

In the words of Bette Midler, "I peed!"

Thank you, r180, for your wit!

Thanks again for all the good stories and insight, r77. Not to hijack but I was curious if you knew anything about the efforts to bring Kristina (fran Duvemala) to Broadway? It's the Swedish musical Benny Andersson and Bjorn Ulvaeus of ABBA wrote in the 90s. They worked for years on an English translation and finally staged a concert version at Carnegie Hall in 2009, hoping to garner interest in staging a full production. Obviously it didn't happen but since you were working on/off Broadway around the time it was getting some buzz I wondered if you knew anything about it. Similar to Vampire, the English translation by Herbert Kretzmer (Les Miserables) isn't very good. Gorgeous music though. If I could understand Swedish I'd do like you did and work on my own translation.

R182, Kristina has the problem that many foreign musicals have: Americans do not know the source material. The books are beloved in Sweden, but hardly known in the USA,( and boy are they fucking depressing). I cannot imagine an American producer putting money into a project like that. On top of that, there is some confusion over the rights to the novels in the USA. This was the reason for a "concert" version. I think the American owner of the rights wants/expects an American composer/lyricist to do his/her own version some day.

What a great thread. Thank you, Steinman insider!

Who knew all this would come out of a discussion about "Streets of Fire"? And I'm so glad to see I'm not alone in my love for it and its music

r183 pretty much nailed it, r182. To be quite honest, as Andersson/Ulvaeus musicals go, I vastly prefer [italic]Chess[/italic], if they can ever decide on its plot that is. :P

No prob, r16. Funnily enough, if you're a [italic]Streets of Fire[/italic] fan, you'll recognize the closing number of [italic]Vampires[/italic] pretty quickly. A song is a terrible thing to waste...

I agree Kristina is a real downer of a show, r183. It might have worked in the era of Les Mis and Miss Saigon and Phantom but I can't imagine it finding an audience now. While I love the music, it tends toward classical more than pop which even further limits its appeal. I'm sure potential investors were hoping for another Mamma Mia and had no idea what to make of a show with songs about lice and stoves sung by starving, dying immigrants. I would just love to know what the word of mouth about it at the time was (if there even was any.)

I've given up hope that Chess will ever find a good book to go with the music - though I guess Tim Rice hasn't and is working on yet another version. The London concert with Idina Menzel bleating her way through the score was the nail in the coffin for me. I've always felt like the show was handicapped when One Night In Bangkok became the hit song from the concept album. Great, fun song but it doesn't advance the plot and always feels shoe-horned into the story no matter where they sequence it.

Thanks for the interlude. Back to Steinman now...

If anyone's got further questions -- about my team's attempt at [italic]Vampires[/italic] or Jim -- I'm all ears!

R77, Just an FYI, I am traveling and not on the computer much. More questions comments on Monday. (Love it that the second I touched the keys, Making Love Out of Nothing at All started to play. My post has a soundtrack!)

R77 I've got a general question about the field if you don't mind taking a tangent...

I write poems by vocation (confessional, monologue-style) and lyrics for local bands I know, usually indie-rock groups. I have been toying with the idea of taking a libretto to a friend of mine who writes music for stage and wants to make a musical, but I'm worried my style of lyrics is too obscure and not suited. I've never written for pop or for opera, so I feel very unqualified as much as I'm confident about the character 'voices' I want to use and the lyrical style. I am a big fan of mainstream contemporary pop, however.

Could you share some tips for adapting a basic lyric to a good, memorable musical number?

R77 wow!

Hey, r186! I get my kicks above the waistline, sunshine

This sounds nothing like the version from 'Whistle Down The Wind'. Recycle, indeed.

r189, I'm fine with a brief tangent, and ironically, I'll be giving you the same instructions that Clive Davis once gave Jim on the anatomy of a popular song before he turned down [italic]Bat Out of Hell[/italic]. The reason I do so is that a) most songs in general, no matter the genre, tend not to deviate from this formula, it's a very simple structure, and b) any new theater score that wishes to have a contemporary sound will need to rely in part on this style of songwriting.

Before I begin, though, I should say that it's important not to get too hopped up on style. A lot of well-meaning contemporary theater composers preach about how a musical purporting to have contemporary music should have songs in the "authentic" vernacular of a rock, hip hop, or country song, and not follow a dumbed-down middle-of-the-road style that takes the basics of those vernaculars and makes it palatable for an audience used to "traditional" theater sounds. Those well-meaning contemporary theater composers are full of shit. No one can put a definition on what is "authentic," any more than one can describe "normal." To pretend to do so is very condescending and somewhat insulting. All that really matters is that the melody and lyric are truthful, and are relevant to character and/or situation. To do otherwise is to miss the profound point of what a good theater song is.

Now to the structure!

You start with a verse (we'll call that "A"). Some may have a second verse (and that can go anywhere; this placement is not set in stone, none of them are except for starting with a verse and the repetition of the chorus, but we'll get to that in a sec), but for the purpose of brevity, we'll consider that "A" as well.

Then there's a bridge (oh, how funny; the bridge is "B"). A bridge, much like the structure for which it is named, gets us from one place to another, in this case from the verse to the chorus.

The chorus (hehehe, right marking again, "C") will will sell the song if written well. This is the part everyone tends to remember, so the industry calls it a "hook" because it lures them in. In a theater song, this is where you get across the main idea the song is trying to convey.

An instrumental part is optional, but often used ("D"). In a theater song, one may tend to sneak in dialogue over this, either to further a plot point or to have the character come to some realization that they will then wind up the song with. (A brilliant example is Fredrik's statement to Desiree in "Send in the Clowns" from Sondheim's [italic]A Little Night Music[/italic] that he shouldn't have come when he had no intention of "being rescued.")

Then from the instrumental, you come back to a point earlier in the song (the hook, the verse, whatever, usually with new lyrics that reestablish what the character has learned) and fade out with it, so that everybody remembers it.

You don't necessarily have to do it the way I just described, and theater songs will -- of necessity -- take on slightly different constructs from this at times. The important thing to remember, as I said, is that the lyric is truthful, relevant to character and/or situation, and fits the melody well. Your friend's a composer? They will write a melody that (sort of) fits, and you will work with them to adjust the lyric until words and music fit like a hand in a glove. If it's not working, you'll write another.

As long as you don't sacrifice truth and relevance, you'll be fine.

One more question for r77 or anyone who might know. How did Steinman come to work with Andrew Lloyd Webber and what were their songwriting roles? I always thought that Webber wrote all the music for his shows and had others doing the lyrics. Did Steinman only write the lyrics for Whistle Down The Wind or was there more musical collaboration? Some of the music is Steinman-esque and I wonder why Webber would have hired him strictly as a lyricist since Steinman's songwriting is very strong but his lyrics can be a bit esoteric.

Glad to answer!

1) They knew each other since the early Seventies, when both were managed by Robert Stigwood. Jim got to watch either Andrew or Tim Rice blow out candles at a birthday party, and the first material of Jim's to receive a commercial recording was from Webber veteran Yvonne Elliman ("Happy Ending," final track on her [italic]Food of Love[/italic] LP).

2) Webber did write all the music on [italic]Whistle[/italic]; Steinman was strictly a lyricist. In fact, Webber initially sought him out for [italic]Phantom[/italic] back in the day (thought his "dark obsessive side" fit in with the project), but Jim was committed to his second Bonnie Tyler album and couldn't get involved. (Much to his eventual regret.) However, he was involved, at least on a consulting basis, long enough to influence the sound of the title track, which was inspired by Jim's comment that the character of the Phantom was like a rock song invading an opera house.

3) The big difference between [italic]Whistle[/italic] and other projects of Webber's wasn't that Steinman contributed melodically, but that 20% of the score was developed in direct collaboration when Webber came to the project as opposed to being trunk tunes. Did Steinman have an influence? Yes. Did he write any of it? No.

Hi folks, Steinman Insider/r77 grasping at relevance yet again!

October 4 marked the twentieth anniversary of the world premiere of [italic]Tanz der Vampire[/italic] in Vienna, and marking that anniversary got me thinking about my team's part of the whole affair and how it had been ten years since we started [italic]our[/italic] take on things. As you may recall, for a variety of reasons (discussed at length in this thread), this project has not yet moved forward. A planned reading in the summer of 2010 with Broadway caliber talent didn't happen, and it's been in limbo ever since (I mean, I personally have never quite let it go, but the level of activity has varied over the past seven years or so). I still have my memories. And the script, which is fantastic (but, due to confidentiality, unable to be shared). And... a handful of demos. They're rough, but they're good; the vocalists have a gorgeous quality, and they show how well the lyrics fit the melody (accurate to the German recordings, with a few of our accents thrown in).

As the demos are available at our discretion, I decided to season the thread a little bit and celebrate the 20th anniversary of Tanz my way, by shedding a little light on the 10th anniversary of the version that never came to be. Here are two demos of the lead vampire's material (sung by two very different vocalists, when we were considering two very different ways to view the character) for the listening pleasure (hopefully) of my DL buddies. Demo #1 is below.

And here is demo #2.

SI, not even sure you're around anymore and this is a dessicated (albeit insightful) thread now, but fwiw I like both versions and am grateful you posted them.

The second demo is clearly superior from a stage perspective though, imo, and closer to Steinman's house style & feel. The reed's opening melody is hypnotic, and the slow bells transitioning into the 'Objects' tune is quite lovely. I love that Jesseman's vocal veers close to legit in timbre (and that held note at just after 3:00!). My only criticism is that it is very lengthy and hard to follow plotwise when listening for the first time (the dates throw me off, a little) but other than that I daresay I like it better than the original 'Objects' by Meat Loaf. Some of the lyrics are beautiful, like the line 'there'll be nothing but a desert left/from an endless appetite.../when our hearts have drummed their final beat', and the metaphor about being a snake rather than an angel or devil. I can see why you'd be proud of this work and feel let down it wasn't staged.

This guy's songs have always tickled that spot in my brain. They are so BEAUTIFUL, and I always love the PIANO in them.

Fuck, I even love Streisand's/Steinman's Left In The Dark (one her most powerful yet restrained vocals)

Making Love Out of Nothing At All and Total Eclipse were both used to GREAT effect in The Strangers Sequel (Pretty underrated in my opinion and I think that one may one day develop into a cult classic- and alot of that is due to these 2 songs used so effectively)

His songs are almost gothic in a way?

Someone used to post here who worked with him (I haven't gone back to read these responses in this thread yet, but I am guessing already that this is the thread he posted in) And I think Steinman IS gay, but very quiet about it?? Let me re-read this thread now!

[quote]Meat Loaf was his big achievement, I suppose.

Mine too.

Yeah, this is the thread. That wonderful insider gave us some great stuff. Great thread.

I am still around, and thank you very much for your compliments! I love Shawn's vocals on it as well.

As for the lyrics, stuff like that is why I don't mind the edits that later productions of [italic]Tanz[/italic] have made, in this number and others; after cutting the demo, we made the same decision, but I'm proud of the lyrics -- and, I think, rightfully so.

As for it being staged, we'll see what happens. I've got more stories to tell about his more current work, too, so watch out for them!

Interesting news for anyone who still reads this thread... there may be a quiet workshop of our [italic]Vampires[/italic] reboot next summer / fall outside the city... details will follow as/when I'm able to share.

[quote] Bonnie Tyler's "Total Eclipse of the Heart,"

There was room for improvement.

Wow, this was quite the saga of a thread. Everything but the bloodhounds snapping at our rears!

I love Streets of Fire. Diane Lane's musical numbers are great. I too was disappointed to find out she didn't do the singing. Her moves are great though.

I read the voice was actually created by computer blending three women's voices together to produce one great one.

Laurie Sargent did the vocals for Ellen Aim when she wasn't onstage in the beginning and end (the music video, etc.). When she was singing in the concert scenes, it was Laurie Sargent and Holly Sherwood.

This thread is neat.

Thank you, I do my best.

What was the original spark in 2017 about Bonnie Tyler and TEotH that prompted the thread?

Solar eclipse. The one Führer 2.0 squinted directly at? Everyone was playing "Total Eclipse" because everyone has the same idea of what's funny but wears thin quickly.

Could somebody give me another clue as to who "Hand Eye" is? It's straight over my head.

I can. I actually got the story on that wrong, as a matter of fact; turns out the song was only ever pitched to her, not recorded, which explains the fuzzy timeline.

Maybe expanding the reference will help:

"HAND-EYE-EE-EYE-EE-EYE WILL ALWAYS LU-HUV YOUUUUUUU..."

Is it all coming back to him (all coming back) yet?

Or was it over with the slamming of the door (coffin lid)?

Were there moments of gold?

Were there flashes of light?