Joan Crawford - Was she really that bad?

I've heard that she was indeed strict, but nowhere near as bad as her daughter claimed. Most of Joan's friends said her daughter was a liar just out to make money on a book full of made up BS.

She just hated wire hangers. How is that a crime?

I also read that Christina and Christopher sued the estate after Joan's death and did get a monetary award.

I read that when Mommy Dearest came out, a lot of Hollywood people were horrified because that wasn't the Joan Crawford they knew at all. How awful that Joan Crawford's career and reputation was reduced to a shitty movie starring a nasty coke head.

Now the Bing Crosby book, I believe that.

Christopher was actually Christopher #2. The 1st Christopher was taken away from Joan and her husband Phillip Terry when his birth mother demanded him back. All of Joan's children were adopted from a notorious Tennessee baby thief. He worked as a utility co. lineman until he became disabled. He and Christina got $27,500.00 from the estate when they sued. And Christopher agreed to take no money from the book & movie proceeds for a payment of $10,000.00.

He was deemed a problem child in his youth after he found out he was adopted. I can see why Joan had to be so strict with him. He was a troubled guy most of his life. Died of cancer at 62 in 2006.

Actually, the son who wrote the Bing Crosby book, confessed toward the end of his life that he had exaggerated the abuse.

Bing Crosby's first wife was a chronic alcoholic. I think those boys were all born with fetal alcohol syndrome.

My brother and I have drastically different memories/recollections of our parents. It happens.

I suspect Christina believes what she's says, but that doesn't mean that's what happened. It's possible that she exaggerated or warped events in her mind in order to meet some deep psychological need.

The Crosby son may have exaggerated, but based on the fact that Lindsay & Dennis both killed themselves belies that things were nice & happy in that household during their formative years.

Has anyone read the book by Bette Davis's daughter, "My Mother's Keeper"? I think I could deal with Joan more than Bette as a mother.

She had a need to be liked

BD Hyman is a religious nutcase and just like Christina I wouldn't believe much of anything she says about her mother.

The weird thing is, Joan Crawford lobbied for the book and the director and then GAVE THE BEST ROLE to her "enemy."

I don't think she could have been that bad.

B. D. Hyman is quite a name!

Mommy Dearest ruined Faye Dunaway. She never seemed to have taken responsibility for her own freakish performance. Was this still during her "difficult" period?

Dunaway's difficult period started when she was born.

Joan was a jerk, can we just be honest about that? An alcoholic who adopted children for her public, not because she loved children...Hollywood assholes have always done that. Do you think Tom Cruise really loves his kids? I don't. Even though I believe his son is really, his son.

So will Madonna the new Joan, though it's not her adopted children who turned on her but her son for her alleged oppressive behavior. Is she the next Mommy Dearest? Who would be cast in that movie disaster?

It would appear by most reports that Joan Crawford was not the best mother to her first 2 children and far too strict with them. But she seemed to level off with the second 2 kids and was more lenient with them. Back in the day most parents lived by the old adage, "Spare the rod and spoil the child". I suspect that Joan's first 2 kids got the rod quite often and that daughter Christiana was fairly honest in her book.

Christina's claims were confirmed. Joan also tried to kill her. Dinah Shore and others tried to intervene. Joan had a personality disorder and was an alcoholic. Christina tried to commit suicide on more than one occasion.

Referring to the original post, why does Jessica Lange believe her children maligned her? And what does that have to do with Joan Crawford? (Written by the department of unclear pronoun reference.)

Christina's original name was Joan Crawford Jr.

R18, Joan was demented. Parents back them may have hit their children but they didn't do what Joan did. She was insane. She was sadistic.

R20 - Are you new the Earth?

Jessica Lange is playing Joan Crawford in the series, R20, so of course she did her research. Unlike someone else...

R20, everyone else got it. How do you get through the day?

In interviews I've seen of Joan she doesn't seem like the don't fuck with me fellas type of persona. In reality Dunaway was just playing HER version of Crawford. Not saying Joan was perfect. Who knows what people are like behind closed doors. Joan seemed more of a passive aggressive type woman. Certainly not as tough and outspoken as Bette Davis. Christina's claims I believe lie somewhere in the middle.

R9, Bette may have been an alcoholic Bitch, but nevah beat or physically Hurt her kids, buying lavish gifts from I. Magnin, taking them to Europe, Giving a big wedding and a house Is NOT,the same as beating the crap And trying to murder your kids. Your Joandom is fucking absurd.

I believe Christina. Even Lana Turners daughter admitted that back then everyone knew Joan was over the top strict with the kids.

Bette Davis spoiled BD rotten and generously financially supported BD and her lazy husband for two decades because they both thought they were too good to work for a living. And I mean she GENEROUSLY supported them - big houses, private school for their kids, etc. Bette would take a shit role in a shit movie for the sole purpose of paying for BD. BD was a little ingrate and an ungrateful bitch.

R27 please learn proper usage of uppercase letters before you post again. Thanks so much.

Would you consider Tom Cruise abusive for forcing his children into a brainwashing cult? Is that worse than a strict Joan?

I'll always find it funny how Joan Crawford bashed Disney and said its movies were "for retarded children," but right around the time she died Bette Davis took the first of two roles there in [italic]Return from Witch Mountain[/italic] (the other was [italic]The Watcher in the Woods[/italic] which turned into another E. Cardon Walker hackjob in post-production while Michael Eisner later actively sabotaged the attempt to do a director's cut 20 years later despite the director's approval and someone else offering to foot the bill).

Tom Cruise hasn't seen or spoken to his daughter Suri in years. Look for a nice book to come out in about 20 years.

Look for the Jackson kids to write a whopper after their pills wear off.

[quote] Christina's claims were confirmed. Joan also tried to kill her. Dinah Shore and others tried to intervene. Joan had a personality disorder and was an alcoholic. Christina tried to commit suicide on more than one occasion.

Call me practical, but....

[quote] I'll always find it funny how Joan Crawford bashed Disney and said its movies were "for retarded children,"

Did she really say that? It's hilarious.

Yes, Joan really did say that. It was in one of the bios.

The saddest part of Mommie Dearest (the book) was, ironically, the one period where Joan and Christina attempted to have a somewhat normal mother/daughter relationship. They had reconciled in the mid-60s and for several years saw each other frequently. Joan was barely working at this time, and spent most of her time in her NY apartment, drinking, answering fan mail and watching tv. Christina would hang out with Joan in the apartment and they'd talk, eat meals, and watch tv together and for the first time they actually seemed to get along and be friends. Christina threw her mother a birthday party one year, and as the party was starting, it suddenly dawned on Christina that this was the first time in her life that a family member had ever thrown her a birthday party, and she had to wait until she was in her 60s for that to happen. Christina found that to be terribly sad, and actually felt sympathy for Joan. This was also the period when Christina got sick and Joan filled in for her on the soap opera.

That whole part of the book is very poignant and you feel sorry for both of them.

I remember when Christina's book first came out Rex Reed was on a talk show--it may have actually been Dinah Shore's show. The panel was discussing the book and Reed told a story he said Ruth Gordon had told him. Supposedly, she and her husband Garson Kanin had gone out to dinner with Joan. They returned to her house for an after dinner drink and Crawford offered them some expensive chocolates. When she opened the box and noticed some were missing, she screamed for the house keeper and made her go up stairs and get Christoper out of bed. When he was brought downstairs, she demanded to know if he had eaten the chocolates. He started crying. Joan forced him to eat the whole box of chocolates and continued to berate him and slap him several times, all while Gordan and Kanin were sitting there. According to Reed, Joan had done similar things in front of other people. Someone else on the panel said they had heard similar stories for years.

I have no doubt that Christina made up some of the book or remembered some things as been more extreme than they may have actually been, but it seems like Crawford got out of control at times.

It is somewhat odd to remember now that while the film was critically panned, Dunaway's performance was actually praised by such major critics as Janet Maslin, Pauline Kael, and Vincent Canby as well as director Sydney Lumet.

The idea of Joan doing this in front of industry insiders she wants to charm and impress seems really hard to believe, although I absolutely believe Rex Reed jumped on that bandwagon and told that unconfirmed story on television.

We don't know what happened behind closed doors, but it seems plausible that Joan followed the 'don't spare the rod' philosophy that was more accepted then than it is now. Harsh? Yes, and thankfully times have changed.

However, we do know that Christina produced not one but two exposés about her mother. The first was for Redbook in 1960 (Google it), and notably lacks all the famous stories (wire hangers, rose gardens) of the later version after a ghost writer was brought on to turn it into a best seller.

I used to send Melissa to summer camp!

Camp Joan Crawford.

Instead of short-sheeting, they'd tie you into the bed!

I think whether Christina exaggerated or not, it's clear Joan had no business having children. She was just too selfish and controlling to raise children.

I once saw Debbie Reynolds interviewed about her. She liked her but did say she drank a lot and she took a lot of her anger out on the eldest daughter (Christina)

La La Land!

A bunch of Hollywood people also didn't deny Christina's story was true. They saw it with their own eyes. Joan didn't think anything she did was wrong, it was all out there for guests, friends, other children, and the help to see and talk about among themselves. The only Hollywood kid book I don't believe is B.D. Hyman's. She was just spoiled, vicious, and money-grubbing.

A tanker full of Hollywood parents were rotten. They rallied around to preserve Joan's reputation because they were afraid of what their children could write about them, or even their friends. Keenan Wynn's son wrote of Ray Milland clouting his son right in front of him.

[quote] So will Madonna the new Joan,

I am afraid that position has already been filled. But she can be the NEXT Joan after Mom.

One thing I'll never forget is an interview Ginger Rogers had after "Mommie Dearest "came out and she said she was glad she never had children because she was so horrified Christina Crawford said those things about her mother. But she made clear in the interview it didn't matter to her at all whether what Christina said was true or not: what mattered was that she told stories out of school (even if they were true) and thus sullied her mother's reputation. I thought that all that comment showed was what an incredibly shallow, egocentric, and image-obsessed person Ginger Rogers was.

if Joan really did try to strangle Christina and pushed her through a table (as Crawford claims), she was pretty unforgivable. The twins said it never happened but they were not there at the time; Christopher has tended to imply his sister was telling the truth and that even more happened.

I remember what Carrie Fisher said about Patti Davis's book detailing Patti's claims of emotional abuse at her mother's hands: "When I read it, I felt like saying, 'So you really mean that that woman who styles her hair into a scary helmet was a cold and distant mother? Oh my God, who would have ever guessed?' While I can entirely sympathize with how tough it is being the child of celebrities, have at least a sense of humor about it."

Generally speaking, I don't think actors should have children.

Narcissists should not.

They always make it about themselves; parents need to make it about the kids, especially in the early years of life.

In Mommie Dearest, Joan bitches to Carol Ann why must she (Christina) make everything a CONTEST!

And the kid was like 5 or 6 years old and didn't want to eat raw steak.

If 1/3 of what Christina wrote or what we saw in the movie were true then Joan was a nightmare.

R30, R27 here. So sorry, my typing bothered you. I think we will all feel better, after you go to the lavatory and pop the puss from your Numerous anal warts. It will be like popping bubble wrap.

Book differs a lot from the movie.

Book is more about neglect whereas the film is balls out crazy physical abuse.

There's nothing more tiring than old Queen's revising history and attempting to discredit a victim of abuse in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary--and support of said claims by friends of Crawford who would have no reason to do so--all so that their deluded image of a person they never met remains unsullied. It's actually sick.

R52, have you read the original?

R51"Book differs a lot from the movie.

Book is more about neglect whereas the film is balls out crazy physical abuse."

I've read Mommie Dearest and I genuinely believe that a) there is truth to what Christina said (though some parts may be dramatised) and b) Joan Crawford was the best mother she could have possibly been. This book is a historical text, and should be treated as a source. The first rule of history is to NEVER take something out of context - always look at it within it's context to get meaning. Joan Crawford is 100% a product of her time and upbringing. Various things, like the raw meat dinner, are clearly based in parenting/nutrition standings of the time. Christina even said that Joan was told by a doctor that rare meat contains more vitamins, and during a time where meat was rationed and only the very wealthy could afford it, of course she was going to try and get the most out of it. Similar can be deduced about Christopher's bed shackles - she thought it was for the best, because he sleep walked. Back then, it was expected that children be seen and not heard, be completely obedient and adore their parents. No parent in the 1940s was the hands on, interaction type that we have today. There were higher expectations of children's behaviours. When you think about Joan's personal upbringing, her behaviour makes even more sense. She was raised dirt poor and worked for her mother in the laundry house. She knew how lucky she was to be wealthy from making films, and she probably had experience with Bette Davis types who DIDN'T grow up poor and DIDN'T appreciate money. I grew up poor, and if I became a millionaire overnight, you'd be damn sure that my children were NOT raised like the Kardashians. I too would donate the hundreds of superficial and unnecessary toys that any of my children would get, and I too would STILL make them appreciate the kindness of strangers by writing thank you letters. I don't think any of that behaviour was out of line OR unexpected by Joan Crawford. Joan was also known for exhibiting symptoms of OCD (again, most likely a product of her upbringing), which explains her attitude to cleanliness. Joan prided herself on teaching her children to wash up after themselves. She lived an honest life growing up, and she didn't want Christina to have it easy as a child and not be prepared for the real world when she discovered she was too ugly to go into the family business of actor.

I'm a qualified Horticulturist.

I don't see anything wrong with pruning standard roses with an axe.

Our mother's aunt and her husband lived in the same 5th Avenue co-op building as Joan in the 1950s or 1960s/

"Bette Davis spoiled BD rotten and generously financially supported BD and her lazy husband for two decades because they both thought they were too good to work for a living. And I mean she GENEROUSLY supported them - big houses, private school for their kids, etc. Bette would take a shit role in a shit movie for the sole purpose of paying for BD. BD was a little ingrate and an ungrateful bitch."

Bette also supported her mother and sister, and from what I've read, her mother Ruthie went through money like water, always demanding the best.

Mommie Dearest was written in 1977 when Christina was in her 30s, parenting as it occurs today was still not a thing, most of the reading public would have been raised in the same era that Christina was raised, yet it created shock and outrage even then, so if you argue that it is to be read within it's 'historical context' please explain why the vast majority of the public who would have been raised in the same historical context would have been so outraged and labelled what was documented as abuse even then?

As they say in 12-Step, has Christina ever asked "What was my part in it?"

I suspect Joan was undiagnosed bipolar. It would explain her manic rages. And how she'd suddenly turn angry and vengeful on a dime. Alcohol fuels bipolar. They new very little, (if anything), about bipolar disorder in the 50s, and not much more when Christina wrote the book in the late 70s. Looking at it from that point of view, it adds more clarity to particular incidents.

Correction: They knew very little...

"You live in the most beautiful house in Brentwood and you don't care if your clothes are stretched out from wire hangers!"

Nice things and houses are great, but they do not compensate (much less more than compensate) for motherly love and attention.

[quote] I too would donate the hundreds of superficial and unnecessary toys that any of my children would get, and I too would STILL make them appreciate the kindness of strangers by writing thank you letters.

Which would make you just as mentally ill and damaged by your shitty poor upringing as Joan was : you would make it all about you and your trauma and reject the fact that children are independent beings with their own will deserving of respect.

"Donating" gifts that aren't for you but for your own kids only demonstrates that you're fucked in the head. And you don't make children write fucking thank you notes when the recipients know goddamn well they were forced to.

Get a shrink and never ever have children.

r63 - Can you imagine how many "gifts" Christina actually got each year? I follow a youtube channel about DOGS with less than one million subscribers, and EVERY week they get boxes and boxes of toys, food and gifts from viewers. They're not what you'd call famous by any means, but they get so much stuff that they just give most of it away to charity. If people are willing to spend money to spoil not only non-celebrities, not only strangers, but NON-humans, then imagine what the child of JOAN CRAWFORD received. It's not the same as Mummy giving away your handmade sweater from nana, this is most likely piles and piles of unnecessary commercial junk, even if it is worth a lot of money, Christina didn't need it. And yes, if I was a celebrity, I would NOT spoil my child. They would be treated like any other non-rich child in the world. They would get a gift from me, and a few close friends and family members. Anything else from a stranger or a fan would be donated.

And also, yes Christina is independent, but she wouldn't have gotten a single ONE of those presents if she wasn't adopted by Joan Crawford.

And YES she should have written thank you letters. Please and thank you are basic essentials for being a civilised human. Only those who cannot talk yet can get away with grabbing presents for themselves and being ungrateful.

R26 Dunaway was playing the film version of Joan Crawford, not the real person; i.e. Dunaway playing Crawford playing "Mommy, Dearest."

I've always been on Joan's side. She was a single mother working at a super stressful and competitive career. Plus had a crappy childhood. I think C-tina was very spoiled and headstrong.

r64 you sound completely insane and are oblivious to it which is the point of mental illness. You're missing the point : you are denying the child of free will. You just treat them like you own them and their minds, like prisoners in your cuckoo castle.

LET THE KID DECIDES whichever fucking gift he/she wants to keep and decide which ones THEY want to donate.

Tell the kid the right thing to do is to write thank you notes if you still live in the fucking 40s and then LET THE KID DECIDES if he/she wants to do it.

It is very hard to grasp when you consider kids like fucking dogs you need to train to act and sound exactly like daddy wants, of course.

[quote] And also, yes Christina is independent, but she wouldn't have gotten a single ONE of those presents if she wasn't adopted by Joan Crawford.

You crazy motherfucker, since when are children responsible for the way they were brought in this world? Stay away from children you fucking insane queen.

Why shouldn't a kid understand the concept of being grateful and showing appreciation for receiving a gift, regardless if it's 1940 or 2017? Why do some act like it's their inherent right to receive a gift without having to be gracious about it? I've never understood why thank-you note writing is considered so archaic and strange. People, even children, aren't owed gifts.

Also, r67, you seem as unhinged as the poster you're accusing of being crazy. You sound as if you had a bad childhood and you're acting out.

Old friend of mine knew Crawford- played cards with her etc later in life. Her Park Ave apt was immaculate, furniture covered in plastic. Joan was fun, full of stories and drank everyone under the (card) table. Peter Rogers- who I got to know a little bit in the late 70s/early 80's was also a friend. He more or less confirmed Joan was a difficult and demanding person, although fun and of course he was a bit of a star fucker and was not going to be too tough on her.

Liz Smith, who is as nice a person as there can be, and one of the great columnists of her time- and knows where all the bodies are buried- pretty much has confirmed over the years that Joan was a very damaged alcoholic woman. Liz told a story in a column years ago of Joan abusing her children during press visit to her home- abuse that Liz identified as such at the time and years later when she was retelling the event.

Crawford was a damaged woman- ambitious, driven and a great movie star. That does not mean she was nice, or stable, or sober. I tend to believe the book- what mother in her will says she has left two children out for reasons well known to them? That alone is abuse. Children to not control parents. It's the other way around. What small child ever abused a parent?

From what I'm given to understand, when that book came out, it was a shock. We have tell-alls galore, these days, it's such a confessional culture -- but this was a different time. That book was a real shot over the bow, as it were.

And, it had a huge impact.

Now, everyone and their momma has a story tell. And for celebs these days, it seems like there's a new one with every book. If they don't have one, they just make one up, one some can relate to. Others, for publicity.

Talk to discreet, understanding friends and family. Write a book if you have to. Afterwords, just stick it in a drawer. Otherwise, I question the motives.

All in all, I'd say our confessional culture hasn't helped anything. If anything, it's made things worse.

Prior to publication, the book was excerpted in a New York Magazine cover story that really began the shockwaves.

I've always liked this photo of Christina and Joan working a telethon together.

Clark Gable had to teach Joan how to wash her pussy.

Coming from a guy who allegedly had gag-inducing denture breath, that's rich.

r72 - Did Joan stash a fifth of Stoli in her wiglet?

Helen Hayes was a witness to the abuse as well. Around the time that MD came out, she said, "Joan tried to be many things. Being a mother shouldn't have been one of them."

You should get Miss Stanwyck's opinion.

R6, NO HE DID NOT. Additionally, everyone knew about Crosby's abuse long before - it was public knowledge.

"I read that when Mommy Dearest came out, a lot of Hollywood people were horrified because that wasn't the Joan Crawford they knew at all. "

MORE of them confessed that they knew of Joan's abuse of her oldest two for decades.

R26 my mother (who I believe has NPD) seems mild-mannered and charming to strangers, but to those of us who know her personally she's a nightmare and not the sweet image she puts out in public. So IMO Joan's public persona doesn't discredit the claims or portrayal.

R36 heh, I have a friend who's worked with autistic kids for like ever and she's said that the majority of them are Disney stans.

There's a great book called "Conversations With Joan Crawford," by Bob Newquist (a huge queen, of course) which is a series of interviews (most of which were never published before ) that took place in the 60s and 70s, Crawford and Newquist were both drunk on their asses, and Joan just lets it rip. This is where the "Disney is for retarded children" quote came from and there are a lot more quotes from Joan that are equally bitchy and hilarious. Highly recommended.

Many believe that "Mommie Dearest" was the beginning of the end of Faye's career in good films, but can't the same be said for the film's director, Frank Perry?

My mother was terribly cruel and abusive when I and my brothers were growing up. Of course, if you ask HER about it, she'll insist she was merely "strict" and just doing what she needed to do to raise "headstrong" young children.

And any friends, neighbours, or other family members who saw her outside the privacy of our home thought she was a loving, devoted mother and wonderful person; meanwhile, she made her children's lives a living hell with her psychotic screaming and frequent abuse.

I believe Christina 100%.

"Disney is for retarded children"

Our sentiments exactly.

We just know that we and JC would have gotten along famously!

I love her referring to Jane Powell as, " that shrieking little thing," in CONVERSATIONS WITH....

Miss Crawford was that bad and more. Just try to get her to buy you a weirdo.

[quote]The weird thing is, Joan Crawford lobbied for the book and the director and then GAVE THE BEST ROLE to her "enemy."

[quote]I don't think she could have been that bad.

Come on now...let’s not pretend she was being altruistic here.

[quote]In interviews I've seen of Joan she doesn't seem like the don't fuck with me fellas type of persona.

I was shocked to read that she was afraid of Lucy. The only Crawford I was aware of was from the book and movie. I expected a ball-busting Dunaway. Davis is a whole ‘nother story. I remember watching her interviews when I was a naive kid, and I could tell she was C. U. Next. Tuesday.

[quote]Actually, the son who wrote the Bing Crosby book, confessed toward the end of his life that he had exaggerated the abuse.

I used to run around with some of Bing's grandkids. They said the stories are true. None of them had a nice thing to say about him.

R88 really? Even though he's a legend?

People knew Joan Crawford was abusing her kids but did nothing about it. She'd have them do embarrassing things like bow and curtsey to guests at parties; an acquaintance of hers asked her why she was making her kids act like "trained monkeys" and she exploded in rage. She threw him out of the car they were in and shrieked "don't you dare tell me how to treat my children!" Helen Hayes said something to the effect: "Joan tried to be many things to many people....I just wish she hadn't tried to be a mother."

Joan Crawford was a narcissistic movie star who thought it would be a wonderful idea to own some children. And she did get lots of great publicity from adopting children. But she expected them to be perfect and do everything EXACTLY the way she wanted them to. Christina and Christopher were active and normal children; they weren't passive and submissive like "the twins." As a result they were treated badly by their "Mommy Dearest. By the way, what kind of weirdo would tell their kids to call them "Mommy Dearest", anyway? That is really fucked up.

Why did Joan spell "mommy" with an -ie? I'd never seen it spelled that way until the book/movie came out?

[quote]By the way, what kind of weirdo would tell their kids to call them "Mommy Dearest", anyway? That is really fucked up.

How is that weird and fucked up? It's kind of endearing, actually.

"How is that weird and fucked up? It's kind of endearing, actually.'

Christiana was asked why she and her siblings called Joan "Mommy Dearest." She said "because that's what she insisted we call her whenever we addressed her." To prompt your children to call you "Mommy Dearest" is VERY weird. It must have been galling for them to call her that, especially in light of the fact that she was abusing them. "Mommy Dearest"...like hell! "

R93 you have a point. An idiotic one, but a point.

Betty Furness, a minor actress who later became a TV reporter and [italic]Today[/italic] show host, said she saw Christopher trussed up in the "sleep safe" when Joan was giving dinner guests a house tour.

R95 Joan didn't think to unshackle him before showing strangers/guests?

"By the way, what kind of weirdo..."

Was Joan a Red Weirdo? I know she was a Democrat but she wasn't THAT far to the left.

Was Joan a Green Weirdo? She DID wax poetic about green. "Green like the grass, green like the trees, green like Frankenstein's monster..."

I'm guessing Joan was a green weirdo.

What's YOUR take on this weighty question. fellow Data Loungers?

Not only was she not concerned about party guests seeing Christopher strapped down, she would happily explain why.

[quote]An acquaintance of hers asked her why she was making her kids act like "trained monkeys" and she exploded in rage. She threw him out of the car they were in and shrieked "don't you dare tell me how to treat my children!"

Betty Furness said that she regretted not reporting Joan to child protective services, but that it was a different time and criticizing someone's parenting -- especially a movie star's -- was considered a major insult. Not to mention that corporal punishment used to be the norm and the line between discipline and abuse was blurry.

I hate wire hangers now too. Annoying as fuck. I actually sneer when a dry cleaner hands me a garment on one.

Why did Christina accomplish very little in her life? And, what's with the bashing of the film in recent years?

I would take everything Christina says with a grain of salt. Her and Christopher would've been troubled regardless of who adopted them. Christopher turned out to be an abusive, dead beat father and husband himself. Christina lies about how close they were. They didn't speak to each other for years.

R101 what film?

[quote]Christopher turned out to be an abusive, dead beat father and husband himself.

Could that be a result of how Joan raised him?

R103 Mommie Dearest. She used to participate in Castro film screenings with a drag impersonator of Joan.

Oh, R103, R103, you stubborn, splendid, adorable fool!

[quote]There's a great book called "Conversations With Joan Crawford," by Bob Newquist

Thanks for the recommendation, R81. That book sounds fascinating, so I checked to see if it's available in either EPUB or Kindle format. Sadly, it isn't, but the search turned up one that is available (in both formats as of February 2017) - "My Way of Life" by Joan Crawford.

At last, people searching for enlightenment can find it without paying hundreds of dollars for an ancient, yellowed, musty-smelling copy of this treasured book. For just a few dollars, we can all benefit from Crawford's meatloaf recipe, her recommendation for Sleep Tight Straps, ideas for a successful cocktail party, plus a thousand and one other topics of great importance to civilization.

R107 Link?

"Was she really that bad?"

Well, there WAS "Montana Moon"...

r95 - Betty Furness??? I wouldn't put much stock in what that woman says. Her sole talent in the business was the ability to open refrigerator doors.

Hi, R108.

Sorry, I tried to link to the Kindle version on Amazon, but the link has too many characters to post here. However, if you go to Amazon.com and search for "joan crawford way of life" (without the quotes), it will turn up with options for hard cover and Kindle versions.

Some of you need to seek therapy because you clearly haven't gotten over your bad childhoods.

"And YES she should have written thank you letters. Please and thank you are basic essentials for being a civilised human."

You've obviously never read "Mommy Dearest." The thank you note business was not an annoyance but an ordeal. Christina and her brother would get loads of gifts at Christmas from fans and friends of Crawford's but were not allowed to keep them. They were given away (Joan always wanted to impress people with her selfless generosity) or used for re-gifting. Christina would have to write thank you notes, hundreds of them, for gifts she was not allowed to keep. She described it this way:

"The worst thing about the holiday. was thank you notes. I took boxes of stationery up to the desk in my room and the ordeal would begin. Each gift had to have a note and I was not allowed to simply compose one standard reply and copy it. I didn't have a huge repertoire of phrases but I did the best I could. At first I to have to line the paper faintly in pencil. Later on, I was able to write fairly straight without the lines. There could be no error on any note, so that if I made a serious mistake I had to start all over again. Mother insisted that the notes be written in ink.

I started in the morning after breakfast and my chores were done and would work until time to set the table for lunch. After lunch dishes were done and we'd taken our rest, I sat back down at the desk and had to fight with myself to get started. I stared out the window past the giant oak tree and down into the garden below. I longed to go out and play but I wasn't allowed to do anything except my housework until the thank you notes were finished. So I plodded on, hour after hour, trying to write pleasant notes without any mistakes for presents I was never going to get to enjoy.

It was tedious beyond words. My hand would get stiff and my back would begin to ache. I wasn't allowed to listen to the radio or play any records The silence was broken only by sounds of my own paper and pen. Every once in a while I would have to get up and stretch but it would be done furtively just in case someone might catch me not doing the notes.

The worst part was being alone. I could hear people talking in other parts of the house and in the yard. After a couple of days of this solitary confinement the task was nearly finished. I took the stacks of notes to my mother and she would look them over. To my horror she started making marks though them with her pen. She said with a tone of contempt that my writing wasn't clear enough or this line was slightly crooked. She became angry as she told me she didn't think I'd said nearly enough about how wonderful the present was or I hadn't described it fully.

With a sinking heart and a hatred of her I could barely conceal I took the majority of the notes she'd thrown at me back upstairs to write over again. It was a never ending process. No matter how hard I tried to make them perfect the first time, she found something wrong and I had to write them over two and three times. As Christmas vacation dragged on, my other privileges were gradually taken away because I hadn't finished the thank you notes. If I dared complain, I had more work given to me as punishment.

I hated those notes so much that some days I had to force myself to pick up the pen. I ruined many of them with my own tears, which fell over the stationery, making big splotches. I ached from hours at sitting at the desk and I hated Christmas. "

I

"With a sinking heart and a hatred of her I could barely conceal..."

A turn of phrase guaranteed to thrill DL to its very core!

The mental image of Joan giving a house tour and glossing over the poor little boy that she has shackled to a bed is cracking me up!

If I recall correctly, hadn't Joan heard through the grapevine that Christina was writing a book before she died in 1977? The movie implies that the idea for the book was a result of Christina being omitted from Joan's will, but I believe the book was already in motion before Joan died.

I read B.D. Hyman's book about her mother Bette Davis. She's depicted as selfish, manipulative, egotistical, rude, loud, angry and foul-mouthed. Of course, in contrast, B. D. is loving, sensitive, intelligent, nice and happily married, content to be nothing more than a wife and mother. But she's also strong and stands up to her mother's outrageous outbursts. Unlike Joan Crawford, Bette is extremely generous with B. D.; she allows her to get married at age 16 to some show business something or other. She pays for a lavish engagement party and wedding and B. D.'s very expensive wedding dress. After her marriage Bette continues to shower B. D. with new clothes, and although it isn't mentioned in the book (of course it wouldn't be) Bette helped B. D. and her husband through hard financial times. B.D. tries to make Bette out to be a real horror, but it's obvious her book has to be taken with a big fat grain of salt. She recounts long conversations that no one could possibly remember and the book can be summed up this way: Bette = Bad...B.D. = Good. Anyway, it is entertaining to read and very funny sometimes. And as it turns out, the nice, kind, intelligent, conscientious wife and mother B. D. Hyman is now a huge blowsy crazy woman, a right wing religious fanatic, a total nut job.

R97, Joan Crawford was a lifelong Republican. Even worse, she was a big fan of Ayn Rand.

I call bullshit on R6. Gary Crosby never refuted his claims of abuse. Show the receipts (links) or STFU.

I believe Christina. She probably exaggerated some things but I think she basically told the truth. My mother, like Joan Crawford, was an alcoholic and some of the rage-filled abusive behavior Christina describes rings painfully true.

Besides, at the time Christina's book was released, a number of Hollywood celebrities, including Helen Hayes and Betty Hutton, came forward and said they'd witnessed some of the abuse with their own eyes. Eve Arden said she thought Joan was bipolar. The Wikipedia section on the public reaction to Mommie Dearest is interesting.

More on what Helen Hayes said about witnessing Joan's abusive behavior toward her children.

As I said above, I basically believe Christina. But I also believe the full picture of Joan is more complicated than Christina's portrayal. Joan's two youngest daughters, the twins Cathy and Cindy, adored their mother and denied Christina's claims of abuse (see article below).

I believe they, too, are telling the truth. It's quite possible that Crawford never abused *them* and that she treated them in a far more loving way than she did Christina and Christopher. I see this in families all the time. Even within the same family, children can be treated very differently. In dysfunctional families especially, some children may be scapegoated while others are clearly favored. Often, it's the older children who bear the lion's share of abuse.

Additionally, some of Joan's friends spoke out strongly in her defense. The most notable of these was Joan's friend Myrna Loy. In Loy's memoirs, there is a blistering account of her experience working with Christina Crawford in a play. She scathingly portrays Christina as a selfish, unprofessional brat. She even wrote that "if ever there was a girl who needed a good whack it was spoiled, horrible Christina [Christina Crawford]. Believe me, there were many times I wanted to smack her myself" (!).

Another point in Joan's favor as a person is that many people say she was a loyal friend. The most notable example of her loyalty occurred when her friend, actor Billy Haines, was fired by Louis B. Mayer and blacklisted everywhere in Hollywood for being gay. Joan stood by him. She hired him as an interior designer and recommended him to her Hollywood friends. This helped launched Haines' career in interior design. He became one of the most influential and in-demand interior designers in America.

According to Shaun Considine, Joan had an affair with former child star Jackie Cooper, who called his own mother "Mommie Dearest" - that's supposedly where Joan picked up the phrase.

I cannot believe you fools who think Crawford wasn't so "bad" and Christina made most of it up. Is Crawford worship such an addiction?

From what I've read, "Conversations With Joan Crawford, by Bob Newquist was mostly written by Newquist.

R110, Betty Furness later became Special Assistant for Consumer Affairs under LBJ, then reported on consumer issues on Today and WNBC. I knew her casually - she lived in Westchester NY. Very smart person.

It's too bad that Joan didn't live to the 1980s so she could've been a "prestige" guest star on one of the nighttime soaps like Dynasty. Joan would've been perfect for it. Hell, she basically invented that style of acting!

R125 what happened to her?

R126 Ha! Just imagine Crawford in DALLAS or DYNASTY or FALCON CREST!

Many years after the fact, the Dallas actors admitted that in the scenes where they were drinking, that was real booze in their glasses. Joan would've fit right in with that cast like nobody's business!

I'm surprised Joan didn't die of cirrhosis or kidney failure. It was cancer, right?

Cindy had a surprisingly hard life as an adult. After she divorced her husband, she was homeless for a time before dying of liver disease (she was waiting for a transplant). She did managed to reconnect with her birth mother before she died.

“Damn it ….Don’t you dare ask God to help me.” Joan Crawford spoke these final words to her housekeeper who had begun to pray for her.

She had pancreatic cancer.

They're discussing FEUD and MOMMIE DEAREST on another forum, and someone asked who gave the better Crawford performance -- Dunaway or Lange?

Anyway, one person wrote:

[quote]Dunaway but not because she was better Crawford; just a fun performance. I never knew why Crawford was ever associated with camp because that wasn't most of her career.

Wasn't she campy for most of her career, from the '40s to 1970 when her last film TROG was released?

Has anyone ever read [italic]Black Widow,[/italic] Christina's ill-received foray into fiction?

Barbara, please!

Please, Barbara!

[quote]I'm surprised Joan didn't die of cirrhosis or kidney failure. It was cancer, right?

Joan died from pancreatic cancer, a direct result of many years of alcohol abuse and heavy smoking.

Joan was a problem drinker from the time she was a flapper in the 20s, but the real alcoholism started after she was labeled "Box Office Poison" in the late 30s. That was when the drinking got heavier, and when she left MGM in the early 1940s she was drinking herself shitfaced on an almost nightly basis. By the early 1950s she was drinking while working, which she did for the remainder of her career. From the early 50s until the mid-70s Joan was a daily drinker who started early in the day and kept on going until nighttime - this have been documented in too many sources to name. Her preferred drink was 100-proof Smirnoff vodka.

In 1975, Joan was alone and drunk in her NY apartment when she passed out. On the way down she struck her head on the corner of a table and hit the floor face-first. When she awoke some time later, she had a gash on her forehead and two black eyes. She was so shaken by that experience she quit drinking cold turkey and never had another drop. She died two years later.

r126 - Joan did film some sort of night-time soap pilot that pre-dated Dynasty and Dallas by several years. Can't remember all the details, but I did see part of it on youtube. I can't remember the details....

R127: DEAD

"She was so shaken by that experience she quit drinking cold turkey and never had another drop."

FOLKLORE

R141 how do you mean?

R139, are you thinking of DELLA? It was a Pilot she shot with Paul Burke(I think), and Diane Baker playing her daughter again.

R142, as in part of Crawford's "story" as told by Crawford.

Strict doesn't involve a harness.

R145 huh?

She used to confine her son in his bed with a harness.

The main problem with Mommy Dearest is what it spawned. A generation of people could now blame their failures on past abuse. And worse, dwell on it. Sometimes you just have to let go or you'll never be happy-ish.

You're right R148, better to pretend that abuse has no effect on people and their lives. Clearly judging by the state of affairs in the world today, the primary problem is victim's of abuse, thank goodness you're here to name this blight on our society. Were it not for them, the world would be terrific.

r149 Trump was never ever a victim of abuse nor were many of his co-horts, and I would certainly say they're a huge problem in our society.

R147 why did she keep him harnessed until age 12?!

r150 fuck off with the politics. This thread is about JOAN.

r152 It's a free country and thread bitch, so you fuck off.

Thank you r143 ! Yes, that's the one.

Did anyone ever stop to wonder if Cristina might have deserved it? Wire hangers, messy bathrooms, greedy at xmas, being a less attractive tramp with little talent, all valid reasons for a good smack.

R155=Myrna Loy.

Joan was no saint, but my gut tells me Christina was a spoiled, entitled bitch who wanted to play the martyr after Joan's death. She and Joan were sixes as the old saying goes.

Christina was definitely not"spoiled' or "entitled." She wasn't pampered like B. D. Hyman, showered with gifts and clothes and financial assistance. Joan didn't believe in that. Christina couldn't even get basic things she needed like shoes and underwear. In Cheryl Crane's memoir (her mother was Lana Turner) she mentioned the "deprivations" that Christina had to endure being the daughter of Joan Crawford.

Great VF story about Crawford's loyalty to gay actor-turned-interior-designer William Haines.

Yes, I think she was that bad from what Sydney Guilaroff said about her and her terrible treatment of Norma Shearer. Sydney worked with all of the great stars and he worked on "The Women". He said that Norma was always kind and you would have thought that he would have been loyal to Joan because she discovered him in New York and was responsible for him being brought to MGM. Norma was shrewd and clocked Joan's ambitions early on and kept her distance.

As far as her mothering Helen Hayes said it all "Joan was good actress, a great star and a wonderful friend...she just shouldn't have been a mother." That may not have been an exact quote but it's close.

r159 The way Myrna Loy described Christina's behavior during the run of that play would definitely indicate she was spoiled and felt she was entitled to preferential treatment. Read r122 s upthread.

Even if Christina was the brattiest brat, she didn't deserve to be abused. Some of you Crawford fans cannot distinguish the difference between adult and child. All children are challenging and difficult, if you can't handle that, don't have or adopt children.

Growing up, I hated my Father. And even to this day, we aren't all that close. But something happened right after I turned 40, all that raging hate and wanting to get revenge for the many crimes I felt he had committed against me just kind of went away. He didn't abuse me, other than a few spankings and calling me a sissy. We are never going to be BFFs, but I no longer hate him either.

If someone would have paid me to write a book about him before I had this "change", it would have been probably filled with rage and hate and just a lot of ugliness.

I'm not saying that Christina wasn't abused. However, I am saying that "Mommie Dearest" was her side of the story colored by years of hurt and upset and book publishers wanting to pump up a story to make sure that they sold more books. I am sure that Joan Crawford had her demons, but I think it's unfair that her memory has been reduced to one book and one movie that she never got to respond to.

R163, Christina's book was edited way down - there is much more. She self published (or something) the entire thing decades later. Her story was collected from long standing journals. It didn't need a publisher to jazz it up for sales, the book business was much different in 1978 than it is now.

"The way Myrna Loy described Christina's behavior during the run of that play would definitely indicate she was spoiled and felt she was entitled to preferential treatment."

I think Myrna Loy was full of shit. Her comments indicate that she was quite a cunt herself.

Joan also considered Christiana spoiled and selfish and vain and unmanageable. Actually, she was just a normal child who chafed under Mommie Dearest's odd rules and bizarre abusive behavior. She was definitely NOT spoiled or entitled. As noted before, she had trouble even getting basic things like shoes and underwear from Mommie. Her life as the adopted daughter of Joan Crawford more often than not was unbearable.

[quote]The way Myrna Loy described Christina's behavior during the run of that play would definitely indicate she was spoiled and felt she was entitled to preferential treatment. Read [R122] s upthread.

Where? Where does Loy describe this? I can't find it.

R66, it's in Loy's memoirs. I'd post the part about Christina but I can't find my copy.

I find it easier to believe that Joan was an abusive parent than that a loved and nurtured child would write such a book about her dead mother. So call me naive.

"Dunaway's performance was actually praised..."

As well it should have been. Hilarious and terrifying.

[quote][R101] what film?

"Munster Go Home".

Joan was a STAR.

Joan Crawford was woefully misunderstood.

According to actress Helen Hayes, she was.

The description about the notes ordeal at r113 is a typical example of what an adult would do quickly and easily : write a personalized note for a gift with straight writing. But it's much harder to do for a kid. I think Joan expected adult behaviour from her kids and got frustrated that they wouldn't do it / didn't understand that they couldn't. Maybe Joan was precocious herself and wouldn't have had a problem doing it at the same age, or maybe she didn't remember. Writing in a straight line with even-sized letters is a bitch for a kid. Just take a look at your pre-high school writing if you kept anything and you'll see that it was messy. it's not done on purpose.

Joan should have allowed the notes to be age appropriate, the recepients would have found them undearing no matter what, typos, fucked up letters and all.

I don't think the kids cared that they couldn't keep the gifts, they probably just hated having to do those perfect notes, probably felt like punishment inviting more punishment. Kids should be allowed to have their limitations.

Joan had no patience nor open mind. It's just sad.

Sorry R113 but Christina just sounds like a spoiled brat to me.

Joan was just an old drunk cunt. Too bad she couldn’t act.

Excuse me, but how did the wire hangers even get in the house?

Christina was a kid and hardly out running to the dry cleaners, etc.

So, how could she have even acquired the wire hangers?

Anyone have an answer?

When the clothes were returned from the dry cleaners, they came on wire hangers and the children were required to re-hang them on padded wooden hangers ( as Joan writes in My Way Of Life "wire hangers can do terrible things to the shoulder-line of clothes"). That ignorant little bitch had the gall to hang them up without switching them over!