Nineties Rock: Why weren’t REM and Weezer (and other bands) as big as Nirvana?

I'd say REM was as big as Nirvana - in fact, they were one of the key bands that made Nirvana's success possible. They had a big, successful stadium tour for Green a couple years before Nevermind broke. Obviously Cobain was a more romantic/tragic figure though.

Never was much of a Weezer fan, but I suppose they were a key precursor to the emo of the late 90s, which I also was never really a fan of. Emo was maybe the first genre where I thought "this really is for people who are a little younger than me."

REM and Weezer were completely different than Nirvana, OP.

Nirvana tapped into teen angst more than the other two.

You were never under the impression that the guys from Weezer were tortured souls who you wanted to make it because if they could, you could too since you understood their music and they (in a way) you. They didn't really sing about that kinda stuff.

I was a fan of Nirvana. I probably ended up being a bigger fan of Weezer as I matured and went to college. REM was too blah for me. Although I was a huge Hole fan.

OP, REM was a pretty big deal. Weezer never came close to Nirvana or R.E.M., but managed to squeeze out a few songs that will forever be ingrained in the minds of alt music aficionados. That's more than most bands manage to achieve.

In retrospect, Nirvana was incredibly average. They get a pass because Cobain died, and they became icons because of it. There's nothing great about their music. It's okay, but they're hugely overrated.

I preferred a more edgy, dance friendly alternative sound like Rob Zombie and The Prodigy. Get your feet moving and your ears bleeding.

Alice in Chains was my favorite Seattle grunge band. Lane's searing vocals and the intense vibe/sound of the band made them stand out from the rest IMO.

Cause neither of them was good as Nirvana. (Weezer ? Is this a joke? Why not put Ace Of Base or Backstreet Boys?) REM lost in once they got signed to the major label with Stipe starting to write "deep" meaningful lyrics and getting over the top big polished production of the records. They were amazing when they played jangle pop and Stipe would mumble random words. Well, there were two bands as good as Nirvana in the 90s an they were Fugazi and The Jesus Lizard (and MBV and Slint but both bands had only one record in the 90s), but neither of those bands were catchy and radio friendly like Nirvana. REM were more pop band, while Nirvana had the perfect combination of everything..pop melodies for the mainstream audience, punk rock/noise for underground crowd and hard rock riffs for metalheads. And Kurt Cobain's charisma and mysteriousness kinda help A LOT. Not to mention his amazing lyrics which made bands like Pearl Jam laughable.

R.E.M. were way before Nirvana. They had a slow build via college/indy radio, but they were big. I remember Michael Stipe bitching that Guns N Roses got big, fast compared to REM. Weezer - not as good, not as cute, kinda dorky good fun if that was your thing.

Yes, I was around then. I cannot describe to you the hell of living in hair band world in LA and on MTV actively knowing there were better bands out there which were not easily accessible. You have to remember - no spotify, no P2P, no YouTube = no outlet. Watching mtv could make you suicidal it was so oppressive. R.E.M. And Sinead offered some breathing room before freaking Cherry Pie and fucking Kip Winger came on again.

Right, so into this comes Nirvana - it wasn't that they were immediately acknowledged as THE band so much as one of the authentic bands that got through. One of our king. Pearl Jam was NOT so acknowledged and basically was thought of as a less obnoxious U2 at that time.

Kurt turning out to be a great standard bearer and openly warring with homophobic Axl Rose was the icing on the cake.

And it was over before you could blink an eye. People have longer reunion tours now than Nirvana was ascendant in real time.

*our king=our kind.

R4 - I do not disagree with you, but the within the sub genre that Nirvana enabled to become so chart-ruling and top-selling (Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Stone Temple Pilots, etc.) - Nevermind was the first and certainly the first to hit big. It wasn't just "alternative" music. REM had been around years before as with countless others. Nirvana ushered in an entire new category of grunge rock. Looking back now - I don't appreciate it at all like I did in middle school and even a few years later. At the time, it was absolutely novel and mind-altering though.

r7 you are so right. I was a teen during the Hair Band years and it was so obnoxious. I lived in a lily-white suburb and the hair bands were the dominant thing then, and I hated that music so much. It seemed like it would never end. Then Nirvana came along and the hair bands went out of fashion literally overnight. We can all thank Kurt Cobain for putting an end to that awful shit music.

R6 Replying to myself. And they became a cult band while they were still active. Sure Kurt's death kinda took that to the extremes, but THEY WERE CULT BAND ever since they hit it big, not just after his death.

The thing about Nevermind is that it came out of the alternative-indie world but it had a production style that was metal friendly, so it appealed to a huge group of people, and it also made the hair/glam metal of the 80s suddenly look ridiculous. It really was something to watch - bands like Slaughter or Warrant were completely irrelevant overnight.

NONE of the top 10 selling artists of the 90s in the US were grunge or alternative rock

It was ALL pop, R&B and adult contemporary acts

I LOVED Nirvana and grunge in general but in retrospect people try to make the gringe scene, which was huge from only about 92-95, MUCH BIGGER than it was

According to the Billboard Decade in Charts issue for the 90s, the 10 biggest selling,artists of the 90s in the US were:

1. Garth Brooks

2. Mariah Carey

3. Janet Jackson

4. Boyz II Men

5. Celine Dion

6. Madonna

7. Whitney Houston

8. Toni Braxton

9. Michael Bolton

10. TLC

Post Nirvana, the only Metal band that I can remember remaining very relevant was Metallica interestingly enough. Even that juggernaut Def Leppard tanked. I actually loved their music a few years prior but absolutely hated it once Nirvana took hold. Guns was terrible to begin with. Good riddance. And Bon Jovi....I just threw up in my mouth a little...

R13 That has nothing to do with OPs question. That's like saying punk rock and Sex Pistols weren't THE band and THE sound of the late 70s cause there was no punk rock in the charts and ABBA and million other pop bands were more commercially successful than Sex Pistols or The Ramones

I was young and beautiful and married to Tommy and had only one album out.

Metallica survived because they always swam against the hair-metal grain - didn't even make a video until 1988. Back then, that was a sign of integrity.

Metallica survived cause they sold out and started playing metal for suburban dads. If they continued playing thrash metal they would stay as big as they were in the 80s. Huge for the extreme type of metal band but not that big in the mainstream music

Nirvana really wasn't that big. Nevermind was huge but it was a standalone phenomenon. In Utero, the follow up, was a shitty record that got panned, and it didn't really sell until Kurt Cobain died. By which time most people were more excited about Hole and Live Through This, which hadn't been released yet and was already creating a stir among rock critics.

Foo Fighters is a far better band than Nirvana ever was, to be honest.

And re R13 - Nirvana represented a cultural phenomenon as much as anything (though their albums did sell). They somehow united the kids who grew up watching 120 Minutes and Headbangers' Ball in the 80s, but that wasn't really the same audience that would be into Mariah Carey or Michael Bolton.

I agree with r1, r3, r4, r5, r10, r12, r14, r15, r17, r19's first paragraph and r20.

[quote]In Utero, the follow up, was a shitty record that got panned

Very much not the case. It came in 2nd in the Village Voice Pazz & Jop critics' poll (the biggest critics' poll of the time), behind Liz Phair's Exile in Guyville. And it sold well enough, considering that Cobain intentionally tried to make a more difficult and abrasive album. Live Through This topped the poll the following year.

[quote] Foo Fighters is a far better band than Nirvana ever was, to be honest.

Was that intended to be such a read?

Shitty record? It is the best record they ever made. And it was critically acclaimed by everyone. So stop making shit up. The reason it didn't sell so well cause it didn't had pop songs and the sound wasn't as polished. Which is what Cobain wanted, to get rid of all the people that started to listen to Nirvana just because of Teen Spirit and Nevermind. In Utero was musically and lyricaly ways superior to Nevermind. Not to mention the sound which made Nevermind sound like Bon Jovi Record. And to mention Foo Fighters, the most predictable, boring, vanilla, safe, stadium rock, beer commercial, suburban dad listening mainstream commercial rock in the same sentence as Nirvana should be a crime. FF present everything Kurt Cobain hated about rock music.

God, the memories! I was in my 20s, typical Gen Xer, chilling at friends houses late at night, smoking weed, and watching non-stop music videos, 120 minutes, Liquid Television, etc. Nirvana, Nine Inch Nails, Tool, Green Day, Rage Against the Machine, and yes, REM, Weezer, etc. I thought Weezer were dorks at the time and didn't much care for them, but I saw them in concert recently and found them entertaining. I was surprised by the number of their songs that I knew.

Anyway, Nirvana came out at a time when hair bands like Guns and Roses, Aerosmith, Warrant, etc., were your alternatives to top 40 radio, and they were a refreshing change from all that samey handbanging, power ballad rock.

R24, you sound young. I like Nirvana, and I'm the right age to have liked Nirvana then and you sound like a cheesy documentary.

R25 Aerosimth weren't a hair metal band. They did kinda jumped on the hair metal bandwagon in the 80s but they were around since the early 70s when they were putting out great hard rock albums.

R26 Young? Wish I was. And so was I. And you sound like someone who listens to Foo Fighters.

Hahaha, no, I fucking hate the Foo Fighters and Grohl.

R27, true - but by the eighties, they were. Some hair bands were not bad at all. Whitesnake's "Here I Go Again" for instance (David Coverdale was also a 70's rock alumni from Deep Purple). Def Leppard made some good music (and some that was awful too). I am sure that there are many more. The most tedious were certainly Bon Jovi, Winger and similar stinkers who churned out horrid music but looked "sexy" doing it.

The thing about hair metal bands that became a real cliche is they all had to have a token power ballad, to appeal to girls and get them play on more mainstream radio stations. It was kind of absurd when Motley Crue would have one sitting on an album filled with songs about their favorite strip clubs.

R30, I can see all the bad videos in my head when I read your post. Thanks for the laugh.

R30 Yeah, and by the 90s they changed the spandex pants with ripped jeans, flannel shirts and Alicia Silverstone. They did kinda jumped on bandwagons quite a lot, but I liked them even when they made the most cheesiest shit.

I hate REM. They suck so bad, esp the singer's voice.

R34 You know nothing

I just remembered Poison. Ugh. Every rose has its thorn...

R35, I know what I like and I don't like his nasal voice, smashing pumpkin's singer's voice is also terrible, so whiny.

I only liked BritPop in the 90s.

Who were some of the artists featured on 120 minutes?

R37, I agree with you on Smashing Pumpkins, but early REM was excellent for that time.

Gee, have you seen the singer of Weezer? He's ugly as fuck! and no real charm or stage presence. not a brilliant front man at all.

R37 Well, Smashing Pumpkins were a joke of a band like 99% of commercial mtv "alternative rock". The only good bands that had successes in the 90s were those that came out of 80s underground like Nirvana, REM and Sonic Youth (both REM and SY were 10x better in the 80s though)

R38 You suck almost as bad as that Foo Fighters guy

R39, every British New Wave/goth/alternative/grunge band from the mid-80s through the late 90s. If you had a video and you were on a real label (independent or major) and were considered any of the above (i.e. left of center/mainstream), you were on 120 Minutes.

You can watch episodes of it on cable now. I forget which Time Warner Cable (now Spectrum) airs the old episodes. MTV2? MTV Classic? You can also look it up on YouTube for some samples.

There are a lot of really great responses in this thread. Man, what a time. It didn't seem like it would ever end. But when it did, it was so depressing. A lot of those bands either broke up, sold out, or died, and that created a vacuum where corporate faux-grunge was allowed to step in and dominate, along with Limp bizkit and Britney Spears. And then what used to be "indie rock", with loud guitars that had its roots in classic rock and punk, turned into "indie pop" in which all the heavy hitters in the world of independent/alternative music were suddenly acoustic, twee acts. People like The Shins, Sufjan Stevens, Fleet Foxes, I forget who else. A lot of plinky-dinky, fey instrumentation and hushed vocals. And that is now what is thought of when people say "indie music". Gross.

Thankfully, most things move in cycles, and harder music is making a comeback in the alternative world. So is all-analog recording.

When I think of the 90s, I think of watching That 70s Show, Roseanne, listening to Guided by Voices, Sonic Youth, and the Breeders, discovering pot and acid for the first time, learning to play guitar, and feeling like my eyes had been opened to this wonderful, weird world of creativity I hadn't known about until about 1993, when I was 14.

R39, there's a bunch of playlists here, organized by year. I pretty much had stopped watching it by the mid 90s, though.

R39, Pearl Jam, Stone Temple Pilots, Alice in Chains, U2, Green Day, Elvis Costello, XTC, Radiohead, Marilyn Manson, Garbage, Bush, Soundgarden, etc.

R39 Ugh, all these bands sucked donkey balls. Except xtc. Mtv at their most "alternative" still played the lamest most commercial rock crap.

Not my era so maybe I'm off about this but I remember reading an article about Cobain's process for songwriting and how he just basically strung a lot of meaningless phrases together. Based on that I don't see how he became 'the voice of a generation'. Also, the story was about Cobain's secret wish to change direction in his music and write pop songs which the band wasn't having.

The tragic figure death of Cobain spurred Nirvana going from big to superstardom band. But based on what I read I wonder if Cobain had lived if he wouldn't have gone solo and started doing pop songs.

Listening to XTC - Mayor Of Simpleton now based on well you made your case for them, r47. Shitty, but good.

"he just basically strung a lot of meaningless phrases together" That's what made their lyrics so great. Unlike Pearl Jam, Stone Temple Pilots and all these other bands that took themselves too seriously and tried to write cool and deep lyrics, but it turned out comical

R48, I never heard about Cobain wanting to make pop music. That seems highly unlikely. Is it well documented? It sounds like a joke. I do remember he was hanging out with Michael Stipe at the end and they were talking about maybe collaborating.

I agree that his "voice of a generation" thing is bullshit concocted by the press so they would have articles to write. Generation X is not, by and large, made up of misfit heroin addicts. So idiotic. I remember a high school teacher I really liked taught a summer course that was basically a kind of social studies class, where we learned about pop culture being influenced by the shifts of the sociopolitical environment, and when we got to the Nineties part of the lecture, he passed out the lyrics to "Smells Like Teen Spirit" and called it the anthem for a generation. Those lyrics are NONSENSE, and I knew it even then at 15 or 16. (For the Sixties, I remember this teacher had chosen "Eve Of Destruction" and "White Rabbit", the latter of which actually shocked me, as I couldn't believe a song commanding people to take LSD had been allowed to be on the radio, let alone become an actual hit song).

Nirvana was a great band, but not THAT great.

R46, you might be thinking of MTV's Alternative Nation show. 120 Minutes definitely played the more off the beaten path stuff. What you listed there looks more like their regular afternoon rotation stuff rather than 120 Minutes.

Why weren't Stone Temple Pilots more popular (respected)? I know people said they ripped off the grunge bands, especially Pearl Jam. Was it because of Weiland's drug addiction, at least partly? I remember it wasn't "cool" to like them.

R52, because they didn't seem to have a true vision of their own. Wetland started out copying other grunge singer's growly vocal style, and then they went sort of pop—they just seemed like L.A. posers who were tying out the alternative thing but not doing it in an authentic way. I guess their lyrics were thought of as ridiculous, too. And Scott's frontman persona, which was more Mick Jagger than Kurt Cobain, wasn't punk enough—too egocentric. Also, they seemed to lack a sense of humor.

They did improve somewhere along the way, maybe by their third album, and they do have a few good songs, but they were most seen as a band from the corporate world trying to co-opt real independent alternative/grunge acts' moves.

Alice In Chains is thought of in much the same way. They were a cheesy L.A. metal band that tried their hand at the alternative/grunge game because it seemed lucrative. Their lyrics were EVEN WORSE.

You'll meet a lot of people who love 90s alternative music who will say they LOVE both of those bands. That's your clue right there that that person isn't all that bright or tasteful. Mark my words.

Wetland=Weiland.

I thought Weezer was supposed to be such an iconic band. I remember when one of their albums from the 2000's was being hyped up, it seemed like everyone was talking about how iconic the blue album was. Or does it just seem like that since they're more popular with the current indie's crowd that r44 mentions than other acts from that time.

I've seen people in DL pretend Cobain wasn't pretty but he certainly was. He needed a good scrubbing but with some soap and a bucket of water, he'd shine like the sun.

REM really were one of the most amazing bands ever, though. Decades of profound poetry, wrapped in melancholy vibes, searching for tiny pinholes of light from which to escape.

This feels fresh, even today.

I must be one of the un-bright ones...I still love STP's songs. compelling chord combos, not all the same (a la Scorpions) all the time, and some pretty tortured lyrics. And I thoroughly enjoy some of Alice in Chains songs. I'm also an unabashed fan of Soundgarden.

I enjoyed Nirvana, although was not tuned in when it was ultra popular.

Nirvana became big for the very same reason as their sworn enemy GN'R.

[quote] Nirvana came out at a time when hair bands like Guns and Roses, Aerosmith, Warrant, etc., were your alternatives to top 40 radio, and they were a refreshing change from all that samey handbanging, power ballad rock.

R25, all those guys you listed WERE still playing headbanging, power-ballads. They just disguised it with blues-stylings and hi-concept videos.

How I despise The Ramones, R15. But I guess unlike Nirvana, it's not a like a huge mystery why they got as big as they did.

'Never Mind The B*llocks...' doesn't hold up but it broke some ground, and wasn't bad for what it was. 'Ramones'? Gag me with a SPEWN.

Me too R58. I can listen to STP songs all day and not just the hits. I listen to their first three albums all the way through without skipping a song. I haven't listened so much to their last albums.

Maybe because I was 30 in the early 90s and very busy, I didn't get into these bands at the time like I did the 70s artists when I was a teen... You know, getting the driver's license, driving around with the music cranked up.

I had the opportunity to watch Michael Stipe perform and he was awful. Not just awful... but really terrible. He was performing acoustic and singing all the REM hits... and he couldn't get through without a teleprompter feeding him the lyrics. It was cringe worthy.

The fuck? Can't buy your AIC diss R53, since they were never a cheesy LA band.

R56 - of course Cobain was pretty. That is often part of any band getting traction and it certainly helped in the music video-driven scene of the early nineties. If you though Cobain was sexy, a young Eddie Vedder was downright gorgeous. Just Google his pics from 90-93 or so. His few seconds of screen time in the movie "Singles" were so delicious that he made two heartthrobs of the day look like chopped liver in comparison. He had it all - eyes, bone structure, muscular body, thick luscious hair, etc. He was nuttier than a fruitcake - but what a sexy fucker.

[quote] Even that juggernaut Def Leppard tanked. I actually loved their music a few years prior but absolutely hated it once Nirvana took hold. Guns was terrible to begin with. Good riddance.

R65 Damn. Vedder really was pure sex. You're right.

Dave Pirner and Liz Phair

"That's like saying punk rock and Sex Pistols weren't THE band and THE sound of the late 70s cause there was no punk rock in the charts and ABBA and million other pop bands were more commercially successful than Sex Pistols or The Ramones"

Except no one in their right mind would ever call the Sex Pistols THE band of the 70s. And only revisionist historians of the worst sort would claim that punk was THE sound of the 70s.

I agree R69 - the 70's will primarily be known for "arena rock" I would guess. Fleetwood Mac, Heart, Peter Frampton, Queen, Kiss, Boston, Foreigner... Love them or hate them - that was what was mainstream in the 70's. Punk seemed more of an underground movement to me. Disco was also huge for a short period but could hardly define the 1970's. Of course there were many other genres also - as with any decade.

For my money, the most underrated album of the 90s is Don't Ask Don't Tell by Come. The second side especially smokes. Thalia Zedek should be a gay and lesbian icon, and I suppose is for the discerning. She and Chris Brokaw were one of the great dual guitar teams. You can't go wrong with their first two albums and the Near Life Experience EP. Gently Down the Stream is spotty but Saints Around My Neck is great. So glad I saw them when they were around.

Another great 90s album is Cats and Dogs by Royal Trux.

R52 STP wan an awesome band, I enjoyed their music. But I think people had a hard time getting too attached, Scott Weiland was very well known to be a junkie and everyone just assumed he'd die. He lived much longer than anyone would have thought. It was a sad slow train wreck. He and STP were awesome though. Add to that, I loved Smashing Pumkins, I wish they'd come out with something amazing. And Courtney Love/Hole were amazing too, including Hole's last album Nobody's Daughter. That bitch rocks, her voice and lyrics. I'd love for another album from Love/Hole. And before them, Motley Crue(VINCE,TOMMY!), Whitesnake, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Judas Priest, Ratt, Ozzy, Kix, handled things. But once the '90s hit it was mostly over for all of them.

One of the best things to ever happen to me was when Michael Stipe and Peter Buck mentioned my band in SPIN. (late 90s). I was the singer of their favorite local band at the time.

Nirvana would not be what they are if Kurt had lived.

R71, I suspect you are my soulmate. You are dead on, and Thalia really should be a bigger icon.

R52, R72- In the fall of 1994 I attended a STP concert in my hometown. I have been to hundreds of concerts in my day (including one of Cobain's last performances before his death). I can honestly say that they gave a performance that was actually BETTER than their album. That pretty much never happens. Weiland was visibly high as a kite and still sang like the heavens. If you liked their sound - they KILLED it in concert. He could barely stand and hit every note with amazing timing. That guy was one Hell of a performer as was the rest of the band. They were never a favorite until after that concert but I had the utmost respect for them ever since.

[quote]Another great 90s album is Cats and Dogs by Royal Trux.

Yes. Awesome record. Still have great memories of listening to it a lot during a road trip at the time. Such a great stoned/laid back vibe.

He was an amazing singer, performer, and had amazing songs with amazing lyrics. Perhaps his biggest problem was that no matter how cracked out he was, he'd get up and perform amazingly. But we were all expecting him to just drop dead, any day. He was a legendary junky, but really didn't need to stop because he was always able to do his gig. That went on for years. Really couldn't believe he lived like that for so long.

As far as the punk thing... punk and disco were sort of the vanguard musics of the late 70s. In the UK, the Sex Pistols were actually able to storm the pop charts in '77 (despite "God Save the Queen" being banned by the BBC), but it was never more than a cult phenomenon in the US until Nirvana broke through (hence the title of the film '1991 - The Year Punk Broke').

Also LOVED Peal Jam

R.E.M. were best when Mitch Easter was producing them. They parted ways in the mid 80s and that's when R.E.M. went for a more radio friendly sound.

I agree that REM's 80s albums on IRS were the best, but I still more or less liked them until Bill Berry left. They should have broken up then.

R71, also of note, Chris Brokaw is basically responsible for Liz Phair's career. He was the person who asked her to make a tape of her songs, and she did—they became the Girly Sound tapes, circa 1991.

STP - Plush, acoustic version. This was even better than the album version.

R83 - God, I loved that song. Thanks.

R53, I guess that I never anecdotally saw the social, underground or industry implications that you suggest about these bands during the early 90's. STP did ride the wave of Nirvana - much like Pearl Jam, Smashing Pumpkins and others. Alice in Chains was solidly a Seattle band as far I as I know and seemed to gain massive momentum around the time that their music was prominently featured in the movie "Singles" (about the Seattle music scene/early adulthood). Stone Temple Pilots was somewhat similar to Pearl Jam yet had a different feel: rather than kooky - more drug-addled. Pearl Jam dominated the airways then (often more than Nirvana) - the single "Jeremy" alone had solidified them as the kings of grunge for a year or so. Perhaps, STP may have been seen as derivative - I was too young to keep up with Rolling Stone and whatnot. They seemed to carve out their own spot in the genre - less pretty-boy-trying-to-be-tough (Vedder, Cobain, Cornell) and more drug-fest, soul-baring harmonics (with a harsh, metal spin).

STP were only labelled derivative because the music press didn't know what to do with them since they didn't really fit in a genre box. Weiland had many obvious faults, but he was always his own man. Some of the solo work was interesting, too. Unfortunately, he was too far gone by that point to put up any consistent quality work.

R86, his early singing style was him totally aping Vedder's "yarling"—that's what it's called when you sing every word/phrase like there's an 'R' through the whole thing, whether there is or isn't. Scott Stapp was also guilty of this.

STP got more palatable and interesting as they went on, but they're an alternative band for the mainstream—no street credibility. Weiland didn't seem to have anything meaningful or even amusing to say most of the time. Sort of an undeveloped intellect to the songs. They did have some good tunes, though, don't get me wrong. "Sour Girl" is beautiful, especially its chorus.

STP got a little better when they started aping the Beatles and power pop bands rather than grunge. Early on, there were songs that sounded like exact carbon copies of Pearl Jam or Nirvana, it was almost funny.

R88, that's correct. I wish I had been as succinct.

While they did get "a little better", they were still sort of a punchline as far as the hip crowd was concerned.

REM came through the British Music Industry.

American College Students rejected the Music Industry and wanted alternative/local bands. Nirvana was the star over those networks. Nirvana only made it bc college students were buying and playing it all smaller radio stations. Nirvana was very anti the music industry.

David Fricke talking about Scott right after his death, about how he went along with the pack and criticized him and STP, but changed his mind about him/them early on after seeing them live.

Billy Corgan called Layne Staley, Kurt, and Scott the voices of their generation.

A lot of people are revisiting the 90s and coming back with different opinions from what they held back then.

With Big Bang Baby, STP shamelessly imitated Redd Kross, who opened for them to promote Phaseshifter, another great 90s album.

STP were a good (even great sometimes - see video), solid band who were influenced by many singers and bands, just like every other band. Kids don't pay attention to the people who dis them because, like David Fricke said, you'll be missing out on a lot.

As much as I was a huge Nirvana fan and found myself being really affected by Cobain's death (as much as I was when Beastie Boy Adam Yauch died), I was especially moved by Weiland's death, even though everyone saw it coming from a mile away.

I was really luck to have seen him perform with STP live (before they dropped him for good) and he was riveting. I couldn't understand a word he said when he spoke between songs, but it didn't matter because fortunately he spoke very little, and when he & the band played it was pure heaven.

I could pretty much listen to all STP albums without skipping a tune, and the same is true for Weiland's solo albums (except for that horrifying Christmas one) and "Scott Weiland and the Wildabouts."

And even Velvet Revolver.

What can I say. The guy had a inexplicable power over me that I can't say about any other performer.

Mid 90s;

Really enjoyed Weezer's Blue Album and Smashing Pumpkins Melon Collie

Also loved Neil Young + Pearl Jam in Mirrorball

Nirvana was great, but then sad.

Nirvana was not the first, the most talented, nor the most prolific band to come out of Seattle during the grunge years.

They can hardly be compared to REM (completely different genre and audience) and there's no point comparing their album sales against those of pop artists - that's just not fair to any party.

Nirvana's lasting tracks had strong melodies (for a grungy band) - much more so than say Stone Temple Pilots or Mudhoney. Sonically, they took dropped tuning to new levels - giving them a much less slick sound than a lot of their contemporaries.

The Cobain drawcard cannot be underestimated - especially among female teens. Eddie Vedder never had quite the same pulling power - at least not initially.

I agree 100% with your last sentence R94. I can't explain it, it's just the way it is.

Yup, [R94].

Please don't take Billy Corgan's word for anything. Why didn't he include Liz Phair in his list of voices of the 90s generation? Guy's an egomaniac nutcase.

REM. Ugh. REM's later albums (post Out Of Time) and Nirvana created the terrible, tortured Emo monster of goth guys with a little bit of acoustic guitar mixed in diddling songs about how their conservative parents forced them to wear unshredded jeans at a family picnic.

It was basically "No Future" punk movement in a time where Bill Clinton was POTUS and there was no political force supressing and stifling financial and creative prosperity in the US. To me it felt utterly ridiculous.

I was pretty young when Nirvana hit it big and while I do like a few of their songs, I have to admit that the band is extremely overrated. Rivers Cuomo isn't ugly, he's just an aspie midget. Rock stars aren't known for their looks anyway.

:'/

Nobody's brought up my favorite band from the nineties, At the Drive-In. Any fans of them or similar bands with any stories to share? This thread is about the rock scene in the nineties in general, too.

Also, thanks r71 for bringing up some queer artists. Although, I guess REM counts, too.

[quote]REM came through the British Music Industry.

HUH? They are from Athens, GA, where they started. Their first label was from Athens, they never had a UK label.

REM was big.

I loved Pearl Jam, and still do. Eddie Vedder was a GOD. Monster voice and hot! Like R65 I have a weak spot for Singles, both for Eddie and for young Campbell Scott.

[quote] REM came through the British Music Industry.

REM? BMI? EMI? EMR? Dyslexia? I still have the copy of "Chronic Town" I purchased when it came out, it's on the American I.R.S. label. What'chu talkin' 'bout, Willis?

That was lovely, R7. Have a good laugh on me.

r103, another big Pearl Jam fan here.

I see a lot of posters referencing the movie Singles, but the soundtrack was amazing. What I loved is that no one seemed to half-ass it, they all contributed really strong material. Pearl Jam had 2 fantastic songs on it.

REM and Weezer we much less mainstream than Nirvana. Though I think R.E.M. for sure paved the way for alt female bands and singers like Alanis, 10,000 maniacs and the onslaught of Lilith Fair types. It all depended on your appeal to mass business opportunities at the labels.

Also, Matt Dillon was hilarious in Singles. I have to rewatch it, it's been a while. The soundtrack is indeed great, R106.

Cameron Crowe who wrote and directed Singles, also did Pearl Jam Twenty.

R.E.M. was established enough by the early '90s that they were seen as godfathers of a sort to the grunge/alt-rock movement. But I think that was more about their own indie beginnings than it was about the music itself. R.E.M. was at its heart a folk-rock band, although they were certainly capable of ranging widely from that. Their '94 album "Monster" was spun at the time as their "grunge record" but if you listen to it now, it's really more of a glam rock tribute.

It's a pretty easy pose to say their IRS Records were the band's best work. But I think they reached their pinnacle with "Automatic for the People," which is an epic. Of course it helps that I got it as a gift for my 20th birthday and essentially listened to it nonstop for the next year.

I've always thought Smashing Pumpkins should be more well-regarded. Corgan's crazy, abrasive personality doesn't help, and his voice was certainly an acquired taste. But those beautiful, swirling guitars! The first three albums (Gish, Siamese Dream, Mellon Collie) are all pretty unimpeachable, but I will grant that everything after that was mediocre to terrible.

People don't remember it now but Rivers Cuomo of Weezer was quite a nutjob too. Crazy perfectionist with weird issues about women (see: all the lyrics on "Pinkerton"). The first two albums were pretty damn good; they apparently recorded an entire album both before and after "Pinkerton" that Cuomo decided to scrap, after which the band went on a five-year hiatus. Since then their albums have generally had 1-2 decent tunes surrounded by a lot of forgettable filler.

R107 - REM became very mainstream during the "Out of Time" and "Monster" albums. They easily received the same airplay and MTV exposure as Nirvana.

REM was an 80s band.

R111 - they never made much money until the early 90s. I agree that they were better earlier though.

Chris Cornell, Kurt Cobain, and Eddie Vedder were all hot.

[quote]Which is what Cobain wanted, to get rid of all the people that started to listen to Nirvana just because of Teen Spirit and Nevermind.

Edgy.

Guns N Roses weren't actually hair metal. People tended to say that because Slash is biracial and had a long-ass, overgrown fro. They were musically more heavy metal and hard rock like Metallica or even ACDC, but more glam thanks to Axl's devotion to 70s British acts like TRex, Queen and Elton John.

Thank you for adding the hyphen to "long-ass," R115.

I get it, sort of, R115. As you say, in the petri dish that was the Strip there were many a glammy trendy pop-metal group spawned....but GN'R began life as an ugly duckling, as a punky, speedy, seedy bluesy hardrock outfit a la Aerosmith. Their sound wasn't fashionable at the time, and their differences among their peers bought and paid for Appetite's success. When GN'R finally even started using the ballads that typified the hair-genre, it was only at the insistence of their label and of Axl (who, yes, wanted piano on record like his glam idols), and it was old hat by then. Axl, the most flamboyantly sentimental member of the group, adores both classic rock like Ozzy and industrial bands like Nine Inch Nails. Poor Steven Adler may have been kicked out partially because he was a KISS fan and primarily a metal guy in a band of punks and rockers, though.

But what does Slash being mixed-race have to do with their sound?

Also, the heart of GN'R was the songwriting of Izzy Stradlin, and that heart was country-blue and rockn'roll to the core. That had a lot to do with their success, how they marketed their traditional Americana folksongs about liquor and bad women in the disguise of prettyboy 80s drug-chic. Genius.

I'm the only Soundgarden fan on this whole thread.

I'm going to check out Soundgarden along with Alice in Chains soon. I didn't listen to them much in the nineties. What songs of Soungarden's would you suggest I listen to R119? Do you have suggestions for AIC?

Growing up I loved R.E.M. and Nirvana, though I don't consider R.E.M. a 90s band. I know their biggest selling albums were in early 90s but their first six albums were great and all released in the 80s. As others have pointed out, the bands are very different. I could listen to Document on a daily basis.

I thought I liked Bush but I soon realized that I only paid attention to them because I thought Gavin was hot. I remember liking Hole. Courtney couldn't sing to save her life but it worked. No Doubt and Blink 182 were my favorites too.

Punk & New Wave were mid-to-late 70s phenoms that stumbled into the 80s, and they were never main stream and never as popular as grunge. The kind of college radio alt-rock that REM represents also gained steam in the 70s as FM stations became more highly programmed but REM's best work was in the 80s/early 90s. The punkers and alt-rock paved the way from Grunge and there were people like our own gay guy Bob Mould (Husker-Du and Sugar) who bridged the genres and was an inspiration to the grungers in particular. Unlike a lot of punkers, but more like the grungers he was a blue collar guy from a dead end town. Punk had way too many art students from places like Bethesda, Maryland, although it also had some roots in declining rust belt towns. STP was popular in Atlanta which is not a complement as it was and probably still is the most overprogrammed large radio market in the US, with too much Clear Channel ownership. Sadly no one has mentioned Mad Season whose River of Deceit manages to be melodic and classically grunge.

I like them too, r119.

R119 and R124 - me too. Chris Cornell was sexy as fuck, which didn't hurt either.

I liked Soundgarden, Matchbox20, Gin Blossoms, Alice In Chains, Blind Melon, Smashing Pumpkins, Green Day, Guster, Pearl Jam, Toad the Wet Sproket and Big Head Todd and the Monsters. I appreciate Nirvana but always thought Cobain was a junkie asshole.

Soundgarden has some really good songs, I like Cornell's voice.

I hate Green Day. biggest fakes. Total rip off of The Clash, one of my fav bands of all time. They even copy their artwork. Shit band.

Alice In Chains' Sap EP and Jar of Flies really transcend their time. Musically they are miles ahead of the other grunge bands. Nirvana is still one of my faves though

Yes, I want to scrub him down in a tub but I find Dave Pirner so hot here. He looks a little like a male version of Elle Fanning but of all the 90's alternative rockers, he does it for me the most.

R126, aside from Cornell and Cobain, all those bands are mediocre, major label, mainstream corporate grunge/rock. Thank god for independent labels, so that not everyone who liked loud guitars had to settle for radio rock.

I mean.....they ARE as big as Nirvana. They just never received as much critical acclaim which is no indication of popularity.

Why do people hate Pearl Jam? Not indie enough, too similar to 70s stadium rockers?

I feel like Nirvana came to be appreciated more by critics as a musical groundbreaker posthumously, in contrast to R.EM. who have always had magazines eating out of their hands, it seems.

I'm finding it hard to swallow that Nirvana were ever 'critical' darlings at their zenith (outside of SPIN and the NME). Popular overnight, yes. Talented, ok. But a favorite of Hi-Fidelity types? Nirvana were major-label scenesters whether they liked it or not, at the end of the day, and they partied only a little but enough that the most committed Messenger-bag probably couldn't relate. They weren't punks or rockers or celebrity types and never tore it up in performance or after the shows, but they were considered du jour in their lazy way, and music anoraks and journos typically hate that. Suburban kids love Nirvana...

And don't get me started on the stunts these late 80s/90s bands were always pulling.

[R119] Nope, another Soundgarden fan here. Just loved Chris Cornell - his work with short-lived Audioslave was great, too.

I'm even game to throw in the Chilis here. Now I guess I'm going to be the lonely one...

RHCP are deemed terminally uncool even by their peers (and to this day the appeal of UNDER THE BRIDGE mystifies me) but CALIFORNICATION was my driving soundtrack during college. They have all but defunkified their sound (which was a gimmick anyway) so I am not really interested anymore but I have a lot of fondness for them. They have an unusually solid musicianship for any rock band.

I grew up in Seattle and for all of my varied musical tastes, I'm most sentimental for the city's grunge/punk/rock scenes ca. the 90's. Mad Season were brilliant, also love The Screaming Trees (and Mark Lanegan), Brad, Bikini Kill, and the Gits.

Blech. Horrible, white guy junkie muzak.

I like Kurt Cobain though, he had a sense of humor and was very talented. But the whole "Woe is me" growling crap gets old quickly.

Weiland, the horrific REM, and all the other growling, sad, junkie dudes killed rock and roll.

Too much self-importance, humorlessness, wanking drug taking and general scumminess made rock and roll a forgone conclusion hence the rise of girlie, lightweight boy bands.

REM was too melancholy and mellow.

Weezer was too much of a manufactured, corporate ploy to cash in on "alternative rock fever,".

Not authentic pioneers or outsiders, really. Late to a game invented by others.

Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, the Chili Peppers and Smashing Pumpkins ROCKED.

And they rocked first.

False, r53.

Alice in Chains were from Seattle.

Maybe it's a mistake to expect something from Deviant Art to make sense, but what does the picture at R133 mean? I was born the same year as Cobain and I don't understand this pic (or the popularity of this stupid Japanese kawaii shit) at all.

[quote]bands like Slaughter or Warrant were completely irrelevant overnight.

Eh, not quite. I remember "Teen Spirit" sandwiched between Firehouse and Steelheart on rock radio. The record industry decided to drop every single hair metal band off their roster and snag 10 Nirvana-wannabes in their stead. But for a good while, hair metal and grunge co-existed on the airwaves.

[quote]the most tedious were certainly Bon Jovi, Winger

Originally, yes... but they both delivered some amazing albums in the 90s: Winger's Pull (1994) is a fantastic hard rock record that has a few grunge influences blended in with a harder edge than anything their previous albums even hinted at. And Bon Jovi's These Days (1995) is easily their best, most artistic record and probably the only one of theirs I can still listen to all the way through.

[quote] Maybe it's a mistake to expect something from Deviant Art to make sense...I don't understand this pic (or the popularity of this stupid Japanese kawaii shit) at all.

You answered your own question R140.

The artwork implies Nirvana and Guns N' Roses were the same fucking idea (trashy but 'sensitive' rockers with a visible self-destruct button) just in different musical packaging. Which does makes sense and is true.

The artwork is freaky and bizarre in the way My Little Pony are, but you can totally imagine Cobain heckling Axl for being fat, they were certainly both assholes of a rare ilk. Some little girl had fun with this, lighten up man.

I didn't understand they were meant to be Axl and Kurt, cheers r142.

[quote]Nirvana and Guns N' Roses were the same fucking idea (trashy but 'sensitive' rockers with a visible self-destruct button) just in different musical packaging. Which does makes sense and is true.

This is kinda pushing it. Despite their occasional penchant for sensitive power ballads, GnR also made their name with lyrics like "turn around bitch I got a use for you," as well as the stuff about immigrants, f*ggots and n*ggers in "One in a Million" (remember the uproar over that one?). In that respect, Kurt was the anti-Axl (or the anti-Andrew Dice Clay), which was a key part of Nirvana's appeal. Axl wasn't going to be giving shout-outs to The Raincoats in his liner notes.

I think the music biz dropped hair metal like a hot potato in favor of grunge because grunge was more marketable across more demographics. Hair Metal was trashy, but grunge appealed to more of a middle-class audience as well as an upper-middle class audience, which hair metal never really made any inroads in. The music execs knew they could sell a lot more with grunge than they could with hair metal.

R145 is on to something, there's an inherent classism and socio-economic agent embedded in the change. The 90s was the decade that record label execs, radio stations and record stores started keeping closer tabs on their sales and spins, meaning that the music biz was no longer so much about innovation and rejuvenation and more about moving product. By 1992 rap, r&b and country were found to outsell rock of any genre, and bubblegum pop was reinvigorating. From looking at the account books it finally dawned on the industry that the teens and 30-somethings were the market to target as they had most cash to spare, and so the youthful market of 20-somethings were cast aside. It was suits and store managers who became the tastemakers, over the geeky music nerds and critics who guarded the gates previously.

There's a more microscopic level to the end of hair-metal, too. By the early 90s, all the tortured American scenester rich teens who loved Crue as little kids decided hairmetal wasn't trendy anymore, and since tortured scenester rich kids were the ones still living in households with MTV on tap...they got to administer the killing blows. The cull wasn't even unwarranted, necessarily, as the time had come for a change and a new generation wanted a new sound as dictates the Circle of Life. The problem though was that, unlike in generations before, it was only the wealthy teens with money calling the shots on this change. The poor kids in the sticks or the trailer parks or without cable had to watch their rock gods and their message of optimism & rebellion thrown out into the trash for the crime of passé . This caused cultural schism and hurt, and a few years down the line this frustration found vent it what came to be known as Nu Metal (a hybrid genre of rap, metal & emo which was slammed from the outset for....yep, you guessed it, being trashy).

There's also the problem that after the 80s younger people stopped going to trendy clubs, as the economy took a huge downturn and it wasn't viable to go out every weekend and coke it up in the flashiest joints on the Strip. Grunge music, grunge fashion and grunge lifestyles were much cheaper and more low-maintenance than glam; all you had to do to be grunge was rip your jeans, steal some Docs and find an acoustic guitar in a pawnshop. It was a straight-edge trend so there wasn't even the pressure to seek out expensive habits like coke or speed or Cristal, better for high-schoolers.

[quote]all the tortured American scenester rich teens who loved Crue as little kids decided hairmetal wasn't trendy anymore

The record companies and MTV made that decision for them. There was no cultural upheaval that wasn't spearheaded by the music industry.

[quote] MTV made that decision for them.

The kids always loved Nirvana. They were always there on the underground, dude, it just took a while to break on through to the other siiiiiide. R.E.M. was for middle-aged sellouts who weren't in touch with like, real emotions.

I can't believe how long ago it all was. It really doesn't feel that way, but then when I think about how many years have passed it's like "shit!"

R146: No. lol. You have a very deep, but narrow perspective.

R147: No to that as well - from someone who was involved in both alt music on ground level and the music industry later on.

[quote]The kids always loved Nirvana.

So did the metalheads. Hell, Metallica and GN'R wanted to take Nirvana out with them on their joint tour (ended up w/ Faith No More). It was the record industry that decided they would replace every hair metal band on their roster with 4 grunge ones. And just like they killed hair metal by signing every bar band with a pretty fontman and access to aquanet and neon, they signed every mumbling band wearing flannel they could find.

I thought REM:90s = Maroon5:10s -- unobjectionable but bland pop music that enjoyed commercial success because 40 year old fraus could sing along to it and feel hip.

Nirvana sounds like it was far more of an acquired taste and it was not a big radio staple.

Ok, R151, since you were really there on the frontlines, why don't you edify us neophytes?

For anyone interested in wider reading on the topic, there's plenty of good cultural-crit out there. Start with Lacan.

Didn't REM sing that song with the lyrics "wish you would step back from that ledge my friend"?

r155 that's Third Eye Blind

Oh OK. I always associated that song with REM. I completely forgot about Third Eye Blind.

TEB were underrated, they had some beautiful lyrics.

'Motorcycle Drive-By' is one of their best cuts, a jangling ballad, and yet it is reviled by die-hard metal guys.

I just looked them up and it looks like they're still touring.

What are you ingesting, OP? R.E.M. was huge.

I was like 12 at the time but even I noticed that there was a huge media push in the 90s to cast away ANYTHING 80S and glamorous

Which is why grunge excelled, since it was so 90s, and hair metal, that 80s leftover of excess and glam, faltered. Of course the media pushed the shit out of grunge.

I remember reading a local newspaper from 93/94 before Cobain died and the writer basically called Cobain and Vedder the "90s versions of pop stars" and they were to the 90s what "Madonna and Michael Jackson were to the 80s".

As much as I love grunge and those bands, they were NEVER at the commercial or cultural level of MJ or Madonna worldwide.

Even Cobain had a quote from around that time where he said he would NEVER want to be as famous as Michael or Madonna.

You can tell that the media had a lot of money invested in the "grunge scene" to make it happen and hype it up

Glad to see TEB getting their due. Great 90s band and great voice. One of the most honest songs about drug use, but it's not Lou Reed being all edgy and mopey so no one gives it any credit.

R162, it doesn't get credit because it's a shitty song. Shitty band. They're not "getting their due" and they never will, because they don't deserve it. They're lightweights. Stephen, their frontman, is just an arrogant pretty boy asshole who can barely play an instrument. Remember the fights he used to get into in the press with fellow lightweight Rob Thomas from matchbox20?

[quote]Grunge music, grunge fashion and grunge lifestyles were much cheaper and more low-maintenance than glam; all you had to do to be grunge was rip your jeans, steal some Docs and find an acoustic guitar in a pawnshop. It was a straight-edge trend so there wasn't even the pressure to seek out expensive habits like coke or speed or Cristal, better for high-schoolers.

Acoustic guitar? No. Straight-edge? HELL NO. Who among the grunge rockers espoused a sober lifestyle? Where are you getting these ideas?

[quote]I thought REM:90s = Maroon5:10s -- unobjectionable but bland pop music that enjoyed commercial success because 40 year old fraus could sing along to it and feel hip.

No, not even close. Is this a joke? Aside from all-male membership and the latter at least ostensibly at their outset packaging themselves as a guitar-based rock band (an idea that completely went out the window about 8 years ago), there is absolutely nothing in common between the two bands. 40-something fraus? R.E.M. was popular with college students and serious alternative music fans; Maroon 5 was and is popular with tweens (and probably some fraus, too). R.E.M. was jangly, rootsy, thoughtful, poetic, moody. Maroon 5 is a vaguely funky, ultra-commercial pop-rock Hot 100 band fronted by a guy who tries to sing, mostly in falsetto, like a cross between John Mayer and a black soul belter. Their songs are explicitly about sex, relationships, and little else—utterly vapid trash.

I am utterly perplexed as to how you came to associate these two bands with each other.

Do The All-American Rejects count? The band formed in the 90s but they didn't release an album until the early 2000s. I used to have a crush on Tyson Ritter.

Stephan Jenkins from 3EB has quite a reputation for being a jerk. Google Stephan Jenkins douche for a sample.

R.E.M. can be hard to love, but they're even harder to hate.

For all that they get criticised for elitism/entitlement from the jump, they're also just...good musicians. And Stipe is a top-notch lyricist, no matter how egregious and crass his personal life and politics are. The band just make solid, thoughtful records, so by all accounts they do a good job. How are they live? They're rated as a studio band, mostly.

Nirvana's 'Nevermind' was something that made the difference back then, but the rest two albums by Nirvana was ....yuck!

Okay, there was 'Dumb' which is a damn good song in their last album, but is a song enough for releasing a whole album?

I find 'All Apologies' and Heart-Shaped Box annoyingly overrated. They are so mediocre, actually.

Unplugged Nirvana made a good job. I liked the Meat Puppets' songs that they covered (Lake of Fire, Plateau).

"Nirvana sounds like it was far more of an acquired taste and it was not a big radio staple. "

Please, Nirvana's okay, but it's the most common of rock music. It was a HUGE radio staple. If Cobain hadn't died, they wouldn't be half as revered as they are today.

I think, ultimately, REM will be remembered as the strongest of the three. They weren't a "90s band," they were selling out arenas in 1988 when they did a tour with my personal favorite band of the era, 10,000 Maniacs, opening for them. From their debut album until their breakup they produced very good, sometimes great, occasionally classic music. "Don't Go Back to Rockville" and "What's the Frequency, Kenneth," let alone "Losing My Religion" and the very fun "Stand" are all great pop-rock songs. That's a genre ripe for revival.

REM could probably sell out stadium tours today if they were together. Maybe, maybe Nirvana could; their output was so short we will never know.

Matchbox20 and Counting Crows are on tour together this summer.

I like At the Drive-in OP! They had a very original sound. I also like the post drive-in stuff like Mars Volta and Sparta. I've never liked Eddie Vedder since he got stuck in a rip at our surf beach while on tour, and never thanked the surf life savers for rescuing him. A bit of a prick by all accounts. As a teenager in the nineties I must say the world seemed so creative and positive. I imagine a bit like the sixties. Anything seemed possible, suddenly the freaks and stoners and outcasts had a place?

REM was bigger.

Because REM just weren't that great.

REM was bigger.

U2 was big too, and they sucked.

I hated Automatic for the People. I thought Everybody Hurts was an annoying Mom rock song. I always though REM and Nirvana were like Blur and Oasis, indie for mainstream kids.

Come were awesome R71 my favorite /Come record was Near Life Experience I also really liked Chris Brokaw's work with Codeine and later on with The New Year, Pavement, Slint, Crowsdell, American Football and Throwing Muses were also pretty awesome bands.

Great Seattle band The Walkabout's Grand Theft Auto, a criticism of the commercialism and pretentiousness of the Grunge scene.