Cary Grant and Randolph Scott Lovers?

Here's another photo of them.

The second photo is a Photoshop composite.

R1 The context of that picture must be known, otherwise that looks pretty gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

Has anyone read any biographies that are good about either man? I need a good beach book.

Charles Higham's biography of Cary Grant mentioned Grant's relationship with Randolph Scott. So did trashy biographies by Darwin Porter.

I'd be surprised if they didn't flip-flop fuck.

The Grant-Randolph photo essay, "Movie Bachelors at Home," which ran in Modern Screen magazine in 1933, was such an obvious wink-wink-nudge-nudge "YES we're a couple!" declaration that even the dimmest readers knew something was going on between the two. They had two homes together, a beach house in Santa Monica and a mansion on Los Feliz. And they lived together for 11 years, despite each earning enough money to live separately as bachelors.

*in Los Feliz

There was a not-so-blind item (it might have been an actual report, rather than a blind item) about the two of them meeting up later in life, sitting in a secluded booth in the back of a restaurant talking quietly and holding hands. It was both romantic and terribly sad.

Cary's children were adopted and I read the marriages to women were completely sexless. Randy and he remained close all their lives. Yes, it is incredibly sad and poignant. You can see in some pictures how happy they were together. You cannot fake that, even if you are an actor.

You can see the love on their faces in this photo. Clear as day.

R10, Cary Grant had only one child, Jennifer Grant, by his marriage to Dyan Cannon. She wasn't adopted.

But yes, I believe he did have a relationship with Scott. I also believe he was in love with Sophia Loren. I think he was genuinely bisexual.

Oh sorry R12 Yes, I think it was Randolph Scott who had the two adopted kids.

A story I read about was that when CG and RS were living together, "Randy paid all the bills and Cary mailed them." Both guys made lots of money but that sounds like a domestic partner to me for sure.

How long ago was this and was it looked/frowned upon? This images confused me because until recently the gay was unacceptable, yet this images scream something beyond mere bro love to anyone with two neurons.

[quote]"Randy paid all the bills and Cary mailed them."

I think that is a joke about how notoriously cheap Grant was.

I think most of these photos were from the 1930s in Los Angeles. And I agree R16 anyone with half a brain can see these guys were more than just "friends" or "roommates".

Here they are when they were older.

Here's a group of photos and a blog posting.

R14 and R16 it was Carol Lombard's joke about how notoriously cheap Grant was. They were very deeply in love--I don't think they ever fell out of love with one another in fact. Less remembered, Scott was a bigger star than Grant at first. When his star ascended and it was clear he was going to be a superstar the relationship had to be tamed. And H'wood became increasingly homophobic through the 1940s/50s. The 1920s and 30s were a comparatively free time. I never bought that Loren story but when she published those letters it was pretty clear. I was shocked. Loren of all women? Hepburn the Elder once wrote a letter to another actress saying that "got lucky" in avoiding Grant. I always read mutually bearding into that. Apparently Grant went through copious therapies, including Acid trips (believe it or not experimental therapy in the 60s) that I always read as trying to rid himself of the lavender beast. Poor bastard. Have a good friend who was a lover of a famous gay/bi actor who dished tons of stories about Grant, Powers, Tracy, Hepburn, Pigeon, Flynn, Hudson and lesser luminaries. Great stories. This is the fun gossip. Seriously who gives a shit about these young guys today? We should get an elder thread going with so good dirt about the old days. Gotta' be a few old timers out there in the know.

R20, was Hepburn a lesbian?

It's pert clear there wuz some cock sucking going on. But really, all that happened well over 70 years ago! Their penises are dead, disintegrated in their coffins ages ago. Who cares what they did with their dicks now, in another century?

R22 You so burdened with deep thinking thoughts, aren't you?

r20, sounds like maybe Roddy McDowell?

R15, this may come as a surprise to you, but during the anything goes 1920s, homosexuality became visible and acceptable among the upwardly mobile in the big cities of the world -- London, Paris, Berlin, Shanghai, New York. The Hollywood stars reflected this newfound aesthetic by openly flaunting their gay affairs (Valentino, Nazimova, Garbo, Dietrich, Novarro, etc.). By 1934, however, the pendulum had started to swing back to social conservatism, and the stars were forced back into the closet and into straight domesticity.

I love this pool shot:

Sophia Loren said Cary Grant was besotted with her and was always hitting on her. So I don't think he is say or bi. Sophia Loren had a bad breath apparently and won an Oscar for acting. She is the 1st Italian actress to win an Oscar and is very alive today. She married a old man who died years ago.

Stupid R2, they didn't have Photoshop back in the '50s and '60s!!

excuse me R27, but Anna Magnani won Best Actress in "The Rose Tattoo" 6 years before Loren picked hers up for "Two Women"

R21 Absolutely, Hepburn the Elder of course, not the Younger. R23 BAHAHAHAHA R22 You bore us all and probably everyone you know R28 the photo is a composite photo shopped recently by a gay website --YOU are the one who is incredibly stupid not R2 who is correct... R25 well said, yes...

R27 SO true because gay men never sleep with women [sound of gay crickets] R24 No. Don't think Roddy ever slept with a woman, LOL. I've sort of dished about her affair with this guy before on DL so no reason to be coy now: Raymond Burr. Last 10 years of his life, she was 19. I've seen & read some of the letters he wrote her and holy fuck. As to this, see also R27, again. He apparently fucked everything. Hard to imagine since he's not Rock Hudson or Cary Grant, for instance. She says most magnetic person she's ever come across in all of her years in TV & film. She's an *elder* gay of 50. I tried to get her to let me start a classic H'wood thread but no chance...bitch.

No dear r29, you are wrong. Sophia Loren won it and she is a very beautiful woman.

R27 Yeah, like gay men never hit on women, especially when they're in the closet and anxious to avert calling attention to their orientation.

R31 Actually R29 is correct. Anna Magnani won in 1955 for Rose Tattoo and Loren didn't win until 1960, for Two Women. Both were Best Actress category.

D31, chi se ne frega di quella puttana bastarda! I was and am more beautiful than that stronza.

The most handsome male couple in Hollywood's history.

I wish I had a time machine so I could go back and be in the middle of that sandwich.

Despite other relationships and distance sometimes, they were the loves of each other's lives. When Scott died, Grant was devastated and never got over it.

Grant died a year before Scott, r37.

R38 a little over three months, to be exact. Grant died on November 29, 1986; Scott died on March 2, 1987.

I think Grant was bisexual or gay mostly because Randolph Scott is screaming. HOWEVER, I think those photo layouts were a put on. The aprons? The stereotypical domestic poses? Sort of having the two guys yuck it up because any two guys with that much of a sense of humor to go along with the joke aren't really gay. There's no ping in some of the photos I've seen - the Grant and Scott are all "Ha ha - we're a couple! He vacuums, I cook!"

[quote]I think Grant was bisexual or gay mostly because Randolph Scott is screaming.

Screaming what? I don't understand. It's a photo. You can't hear them. Plus, in the none of the posed shots, is he mimicking a scream.

Hey, who are these guys?

I was acquainted with a nurse (gay male) years ago - late 80s - who had been Randolph's love every-in nurse during his final illness. He said "Randy" showed him all the shots from that photo shoot that weren't used, and he said they were quite explicit - not sexually, but romantically explicit. Randy talked about his great love , Cary, and how happy they were before fame got in the way.

Sorry, Randolph Scott's live-in nurse, not love every nurse.

both gorgeous

A gorgeous couple--gay or straight, that pairing would turn heads even today. That pool shot is glorious!

[html removed]

[html removed] "RANDOLPH Scott!"

Whatever Happened to Randolph Scott?

Randolph Scott was reputed to have had a fortune over $100 million when he died in the late 1980s. Amazing for both the mount by late 80s standards and the fact that actors did not get the type of money even today's minor celebs get.

All of those photos of Grant and him in seeming domestic bliss were supposedly posed for some purpose by the movie studios and had been kept private until stolen by one of Scott's nurses.

They do look very happy together, and it makes me happy to see it. So, I will choose to believe they were a couple whether it's actually true or not.

[quote] [R28] the photo is a composite photo shopped recently by a gay website --YOU are the one who is incredibly stupid not [R2] who is correct...

Thanks for the support, R30, but R28 signed that post as "Paris Hilton'" clearly showing that it was intended as a joke, though I was half-expecting someone to say something like that for real.

The photoshop photo is a publicity still of Cary Grant from Indiscreet together with a random pic of Randolph Scott.

But there are plenty of real pictures from the 1930s showing the two of them together at home relaxing as a couple.

The pictures are at R19. Incredible not to see that they were a couple, and a very happy one, looking at these pictures.

According to Higham, Grant and Scott kept seeing each other into their old age, dining out in restaurants together.

I remember seeing a documentary years ago (possibly late-'90s) about Randolph Scott and one of his younger relatives (I think his son or nephew, something like that) hilariously said that after Scott had died the coroner said that old Randolph could not have been gay judging by the good condition his asshole was in. It wasn't put in quite those terms but that was the gist.

Conversely, I saw a very recent documentary about Cary Grant where they touched briefly on the rumours about Grant's sexuality in general and Neil Norman, the British film critic, said that Randolph was clearly gay. And it is quite obvious that Scott was gay. Grant on the other hand is an enigma, I think; and those photos are very strange to me. Why would they have them taken, let alone allow them to published, at a time when both their careers were in the ascendent??? It seems like such an anomaly, but given that Scott was indeed a screamer, I assume they really did have a romantic relationship. Maybe they were about to be blackmailed or something and they ran the story to allow some kind of cover in plain sight?

Just to put a fine point on it for r29 and r33, Magnani was the first Italian to win Best Actress, but Loren was the first actress to win the award for a performance IN ITALIAN.

Is it true that Cary Grant was extremely knowledgeable about clothes and tailoring? He always dressed very well but from what I've read and heard he seemed to have an uncommon feel for and knowledge of tailoring. I know that Peter Bogdanovich says that that was one thing that struck him about Grant when he met him in the '60s/'70s; and Martin Landau tells a story about making 'North By Northwest' and Hitchcock told him to go and get a suit made by Grant's tailor without the latter knowing about it. On his first day of shooting (which I think was the train station scene), Landau turns up on the busy set and after awhile Grant came up to him and very curious, asked him who his tailor was. He told Landau there were only two tailors in the world who could cut a suit like that. One was in Hong Kong or somewhere like that and the other was his own.

And then something like this happened...

It makes me happy too to see the two of them together. I realized while I was looking at them that I was smiling to myself. We would be hard pressed today to find such a good looking pair so obviously in love with each other.

I don't care what the nay sayers say about the photos being staged as they probably were. I believe it was hiding in plain sight. Also, in the twenties and early thirties it was still ok to be gay, then the country went all conservative and everyone had to go into hiding. At least that is my perception of those times.

Of course they were lovers. Those pictures of them together show how comfortable they were with each other and how much they enjoyed each other. Grant was bi; I don't if Scott was bi or exclusively gay. Anyway, they were a gorgeous couple.

They're just bros!

[quote] We would be hard pressed today to find such a good looking pair so obviously in love with each other.

Excuse ME?

R56, when 17-year-old Archie Leach (aka Cary Grant) moved to NYC to try to break into showbiz, he roomed with "hermaphrodite" performer Charlie Spangles and tailor's assistant Orry Kelly, who would later become a celebrated Hollywood costume designer. Maybe young Archie and Orry exchanged fashion design tips.

R61 Paleese, Harrises, neither one of you is all that.

R63 all that what?

R38 is correct and, as I was told the story, it was Grant's death that hastened Scott's--Scott always more in love (and a very different kind of guy than Grant) with Grant. Although in later years Scott supposedly became quite conservative.

R61 in your/their dreams...neither of them comes close to the beauty of those two men. That is my favorite H'wood couple evah!

They do look happy together

You can see them together in Garson Kanin's classic screwball comedy "My Favorite Wife" (1940), in which Grant has to pretend to find Scott a threat to his heterosexual marriage. It was a challenge, since Randy spends most of the movie in "trunks" and a terrycloth robe.

They may not have been lovers, but they fucked each other constantly.

R64 rolling eyes as I type...handsome or special is "all that".

R56, you reminded me of a story from the biography of Grant I read a few years ago. Grant was on a movie set, holding up shooting because he was bitching about the suit he was wearing - the sleeve didn't stick out from the cuff exact 1/4" or something, and he was acting like the wardrobe department had clothed him in beggar's rags. The person relating the anecdote was appalled at Grant's behavior, but the film's director was fine with it. "No, we WANT this", said the director. "We WANT that polished look he's known for, so we hold up production until he looks like Cary Grant".

Oh, and that same biography was very honest about the relationship between Grant and Scott, and said it continued through a couple of their marriages. And that when they were old men, they'd go out to dinner and hold hands under the table, so I don't see why someone had to make a blind item about something that'd already been published.

R71 No one made a blind item out of it--but it's the most interesting thread on DL and ages so....

[quote] Is it true that Cary Grant was extremely knowledgeable about clothes and tailoring?

[R56] Not to hijack the thread, but since tailoring was mentioned, you might enjoy the following interview with Fred Astaire on that topic.

Those guys really knew their clothes and what worked for them.

Cary Grant was super picking about his clothing and wore very fine and expensive clothes only I read. Also, he liked to wear Kaftans!! and he did so often at Merv Griffen's California ranch. It was said the Cary loved going to Merv's ranch so much that he was said to have stated, "I would never leave here." Yes, and we all know well what kind of life Merv Griffen led especially in the 80s.

*picky

I remember seeing Grant on TV many years ago, I believe it was a variety show. He was seated on a park bench, and was talking(to the camera) about what lengths costume designers will go to so all the clothes in films look good. He talked about the suit he was wearing, and described: the perfect leg length; where the break should come near the shoes; how the shirt cuff should stick out only so much; the way a well-cut suit never gaps at the lapels or top button; etc. Naturally, he looked as smart and natty as usual. At the end of the bit, he stood up and let the audience see how the suit he had just talked about could only be worn in his exact former sitting position. Each leg and sleeve were different lengths, some had been held in place JUST SO with needle and thread, and other tricks as well. It was so odd seeing him NOT his usually sartorially resplendent self.

I wonder what he truly thought of the gay rumors that swirled around him? Would've been nice if he had left a letter or something along the lines of, "Oh yeah, that queer thing? They were right."

Here's clips set to music.

Randy ultimately became a big star in Westerns in the 1940s, always playing humorless gruff heroes. He hardly pinged on film.

Cary, on the other hand, uttered that immortal line in 1938's Bringing Up Baby "I've just suddenly gone gay!" And dressed in a ruffled chiffon peignoir, at that.

Mr bowers said he had them.

i could imagine them both double stuffing anthony perkins--that slut!

Dyan Cannon and Jennifer Grant each wrote a book on Cary and both denied the rumor that he was gay, but daughter Jennifer was less emphatic about it.

R76 Apparently he told Jennifer that he loved the rumors he was gay because it made women want him more. Ahem... R80 They wouldn't give Tony Perkins a second look...

I can't believe people don't know and are questioning if they were lovers. Grant might have been bi, but I think he had mostly male lovers.

I wish we had classy movie stars like Cary Grant today.

Who wouldn't want Cary? Look how handsome he could be. I actually look kind of like Randolph and I was in an Italian sauna a few summers ago and this guy walks through the shower doors and he looked SOOO much like Cary. Without exaggerating, his face resembled Cary in his late 40's and was about 90-95% similar. He wasn't Italian and lived in another European country, but I had to ask him later in the Jacuzzi if people said he looked like Cary and he said yes. He was married...and proceeded to dip under the water and put my dick in his mouth for a few seconds before he came up for air. So, that probably means that Cary and Randolph were lovers, lol.

This is what the guy in the Jacuzzi looked like. So hawt.

Is that fukkin caftan?

r76, I don't know what he thought of the rumors he was gay, but he certainly didn't like it being spoken out loud:

Cary Grant vs. Chevy Chase

The year: 1980

The charge: During an appearance on Tom Snyder’s Tomorrow, Snyder told the former Saturday Night Live star — then trying to make a name as a romantic comedy leading man — that many people had compared him favorably to Cary Grant. Chase responded, apparently humorously, “I understand he was a homo. He was brilliant. What a gal!” Grant didn’t care for the joke, and the next day, he filed a $10 million lawsuit against Chase for slander.

The verdict: They eventually settled out of court, with Grant reportedly pocketing $1 million in the deal.

Amazing to think that at some point in history Chevy Chase was being compared favorably to Cary Grant. The only similarity was the sexy chin dimple.

Come to think of it. didn't Tom Snyder also have a sexy chin dimple?

R76 - good. I fucking hate Chevy Chase.

R11, that's not Cary Grant. And it may be from a film. That mustache looks ridiculous.

r91, that's Scott on the left and Grant on the right.

The domestic bliss photos first surfaced in Hollywood Babylon - 1967 - well before Scott was ill and needed a nurse.

Randolph Scott came from a wealthy family. That's why he had so much money.

The word about Cary Grant is that he was a poor guy who eventually grew into the Cary Grant-type character that we saw on film. Suave and sophisticated. That's why he knew so much about tailoring

Cary Grant's entire persona was his own creation. He grew up very lower-class in Bristol, what today the British call chav. Like Joan Crawford, Clark Gable and Greta Garbo, all of whom also came from abject poverty, he worked hard at bettering himself and being "upscale" and glamorous. It's the complete opposite today with celebrities reveling in being low-class trash, but back then it was something to be ashamed of and you worked hard to rise above it.

I don't know what it's like now, but I'm fairly certain that back in Grant's day, he would never have been able to rise that far "above his station" in the far more class-conscious UK.

Thanks for the link to that Fred Astaire article, R73.

Interesting photo of Clooney and Gerber. It fits the thread well.

don't forget Elvis Presley and Nick Adams

They have the best marriage in Hollywood.

All the stories about Hollywood actors being gay are LIES!!!! Total LIES!!!!!!

When Grant and Scott split up in the mid 1940s, Scott married a DuPont heiress. That was the source of his wealth.

As to the gay rumors:

[quote] Although Scott achieved fame as a motion picture actor, he managed to keep a fairly low profile with his private life. Offscreen he was good friends with Fred Astaire and Cary Grant. He met Grant on the set of Hot Saturday (1932), where they shared only one scene together, and shortly afterwards they began rooming together in a beach house in Malibu that became known as "Bachelor Hall". According to author Robert Nott, "They lived together on and off for about ten years, because they were friends and wanted to save on living expenses (they were both considered to be notorious tightwads)."[41] In 1944, Scott and Grant stopped living together but remained close friends throughout their lives.[42] This has led to unsubstantiated gossip that the two were a homosexual couple. Scott's adopted son, Christopher, challenged the rumors. Following Scott's death, Christopher wrote a book entitled, Whatever Happened to Randolph Scott?, in which he rebuts rumors of his father's alleged homosexuality. The widely circulated photos of Grant and Scott were publicity stills. Both Scott and Grant were posed for the shots that were staged by an art director, to be used for an upcoming film, My Favorite Wife. The photos were stolen from the Scott family house during the last months of his father's life by a nurse who had been fired.[43] Budd Boetticher, who directed Scott in seven films from 1956 to 1960, had this to say about the rumors: "Bullshit".[41] Grant's assertion that he had "nothing against gays, I'm just not one myself", is treated at length in Peter Bogdanovich's book of essays about actors, Who the Hell's in It.

When Cary married Woolworth's heiress Barbara Hutton, who was one of the richest women in the world, some wag in Hollywood promptly dubbed them "Cash and Cary." He refused to take any money from her when they divorced.

He had a wonderful relationship with her son, Lance Reventlow.

R56, I have a book about Grant and his fashion sense that is very entertaining, and loaded with pictures. I do think it skirts around the gay issue though. Here's a link for the book at Amazon.

Oh, and the book mentions that Cary wore women's panties because they looked better under a suit!

The photos of Grant and Scott in domestic bliss were first published in "Screenland" magazine, January 1936 (not "Modern Screen" as I previously posted). The wiki excerpt posted in R102 mentions that these were staged shots to be used for "My Favorite Wife," a movie released four years later in 1940. But if you've seen the movie, you have to wonder what these photos have to do with the premise. I call BS on that explanation.

Here's a shot of that Grant-Scott "Screenland" article:

I did read somewhere that his daughter Jennifer said Cary told her she would hear many strange rumours about him after he died. Iirc, I think she wrote that in the book she wrote about him.

I don't think they are gay. They wouldn't be posing for those pictures that bravely if they were. And also those pics don't look natural at all. It's as if they are straight from a modeling shoot. Hair perfectly in place, sophisticated clothes and movie-esque smiling etc. Also given the fact that there is no other proof like ex-lovers or an anecdote from a veritable source makes their relationship farce. But I won't be surprised if both were BFF's and probably soulmates.

People keep saying that those domestic bliss photos were privately taken and leaked much later or stolen from Scott's place, but as r106 said, they were intentionally staged and professionally made and published in a magazine at the time, with Grant, Scott and the studio's consent. It was intentional publicity on their part. That's what's so odd about them.

I don't think the motivation for doing them has ever really been explained, has it? They're just so incongruous. The only explanation I can think of is that maybe they were being blackmailed or something was threatening to come out in the open about them and this was an audacious way of providing cover in plain sight?

[quote]r56 Not to hijack the thread, but since tailoring was mentioned, you might enjoy the following interview with Fred Astaire on that topic.

Oh, thank you, r73; that was a great interview. And thanks to all the other posts regarding Cary and his knowledge of tailoring. Really fascinating stuff. I could read about this for hours. You just don't seem to get that kind of knowledge of clothing, make-up, lighting and camera set-ups that many of the great movie stars once had, I think. Most of them look like slobs even at awards ceremonies now!

R95 nailed it, today's celebrity culture (whatever it means) is trashy, because it is trendy to be trashy and to know nothing. Those g-list celebrities haven't read a book, know nothing about anything and it has become a new fashion, which teenagers from low class (whatever it means) try to follow.

Completely off topic, but Fred Astaire keeps popping up in this thread, so I did some Googling.

Here's a neat picture of Fred without his toupee. He stopped wearing it for a while during WWII.

R111 the (and yes I am going to use that word) zeitgeist of the last 15 years has been defined by intellectual ignorance in everything from politics (Bush, Cruz, Cheney, the Republican party, and Fox) to music (rap, autotune), reality TV ( Kardashians), and movies (empty superhero franchise films). With regard to letters, we have Gawker. It's imploding now, but it's no surprise to see ignorance when it has in fact been celebrated for the last 15 years. At a certain point, though, people want something better.

Randolph Scott with his first wife, Mariana DuPont Somerville.

Do these two look like they have anything in common?

Lance Reventlow was Barbara Hutton's only child. He was once married to Jill St. John and he died quite young in a plane crash.

Remind me again how long have they been dead?

We were sitting in the same row of seats as Fairy Grant and her beard at a 1984 Peggy Lee concert in LA.

In the lobby during intermissia we could see what an arrogant and unpleasant old queen Fairy Grant realy was.

Ceasar Romero, who was also there, was fabulous, very outgoing and friendly.

Randy, Cary and wife Virginia Cherrill. I believe they were only married for about 7 months.

In Jennifer Grant's book, she revealed that one of Cary's favorite movies was "Silver Streak", with Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor. He watched it often.

He was also a big fan of "The Carol Burnett Show" and would often call members of the cast, particularly Harvey Korman. His calls became a nuisance and Korman eventually began not taking or returning them.

In Dyan Cannon's book, she wrote of how controlling Cary was of her, even to the point of approving what clothes she wore. Upon arriving home from the hospital after the birth of Jennifer, Dyan wondered where her beloved dog of many years was. Cary had her dog permanently removed from the house without her knowledge because he believed infants should not be around dogs.

The only thing Randy Scott and his Dupont heiress wife had in common was a similar love for severe tailoring, if r114's photo is any evidence.

Cary did not escape his lower working class background in England. His education of the better things in life and his achievement of them began in the NYC theater world of the 1920s and in his move to Hollywood. Only in America would his spectacular good looks (and knowing how to use them) allow for class distinctions to melt away.

Diane Canon would never admit that Cary was gay.

Grant got out by basically running away with the circus, didn't he? It was traveling with the circus that got him to NYC. When the circus moved on he stayed in the New York. His life story really is incredible. I think he always believed his mother had died when he was a boy, but he found out after he became a huge star that she had been placed in an asylum and was still alive. He had her shipped over and she moved in with him in Hollywood, I think.

The fact he escaped from that background is incredible enough in itself. He sure did capitalize on all the breaks chance gave him. I think he once said "Everyone wants to be Cary Grant. Including me." I read that the Cary Grant persona was invented by Leo McCarey on 'The Awful Truth' - and that Grant wasn't at all sure during the making of that film that what McCarey was doing was any good and had to be persuaded to stick with it. His gift at light comedy and his physical prowess are incredible from the very beginning.

r109 You are right. They probably were being black mailed, and figured they would set the narrative to explain living together. Still interesting they were able to bypass the homophobia. even the slowest person who read that magazine and saw those pictures would know they were gay.

Cary Grant with fiancée Virginia Cherrill and Randy Scott enroute to England.

Why would someone who had a long and happy relationship with man he loved in later life try to drug the gay away? Doesn't sound like his relationship with Scott was all that much.

[quote] I read that the Cary Grant persona was invented by Leo McCarey on 'The Awful Truth'

He seemed pretty "Cary Crant" in "She Done Him Wrong" four years earlier.

[quote]Lance Reventlow was Barbara Hutton's only child. He was once married to Jill St. John and he died quite young in a plane crash.

That seems awfully suspicious. Is Jill a just a jinx?

Grant and Scott were gay lovers who got away with it by hiding in plain sight.

Conventional wisdom had it that if two up-and-coming leading-man film stars really were gay they would hide that fact. They weren't hiding, therefore they must not be gay.

But that strategy could only work for a short time. Eventually they had to split up to maintain the closet. Grant later tried drugs because in a society where it was mostly impossible to be "out" with honor, he was probably desperate to at least try to become a fully functioning heterosexual. I'll wager he was far more gay than straight, Scott too. What's sad is that even now, eighty years later, film actors, especially leading men, are among the only group of people who have to keep up the facade of straightness in order to have a career.

Was Scott's wife the same DuPont who was involved with singer Libby Holman?

And was singer Libby Holman the same one who was involved with Montgomery Clift?

Anthony Perkins is another one who had gay relationships when younger (Tab Hunter), but couldn't stand to be gay.

Barbara Hutton was severely anorexic most of her life, and it's almost impossible to imagine Cary Grant touching her in a sexual way.

Anthony Perkins was gay until he got a taste of my sweet, sweet pussy.

I remember reading that Cary Grant began each new year with a plan to learn something new and began to study about a new specific topic each year.

He strikes me as someone who was truly interested in life and in learning new things, unlike some of his contemporary A list male stars who self destructed (Errol Flynn, for example.)

He maintained a sense of dignity and was content to age gracefully, a lesson that many of the current days stars have forgotten.

R129, No, that was duPont heiress Louisa d'Andelot Carpenter, who had a fondess for hunting and menswear.

R102 You're quite wrong. There is a huge contingent that simply does not want CG to be gay. And one can't say that he was entirely gay. But the elder gay (she's actually 53) friend of whom I spoke earlier knew many of these guys at the end of their lives and/or people who knew them closely. Because she was a woman and gay (apart from the 1 extended affair) she heard lots of stories; the kind of stories that are reasonable and just matter-of-fact discussion.

She knew Roddy McDowell and Gavin Lambert--incredible gossips, though "Roddy" wasn't mean like Lambert and Cukor, who she met several times at the very end of his life. He was insanely gossipy then and a real cunt she says. She also knows Scotty Bowers and believes about 95% of that book is true, minus the stuff that that twat Gore Vidal made up and had him add to attack people he hated.

According to what she was told about this one story, Grant was gay and tried hard to "overcome" it from the 1940s on, which also made him a nasty, frustrated bastard later in life. He had one love: Randolph Scott. Period and they tried to hold onto it as long as they could. Those photos *were* taken as a part of a publicity campaign (there were many unused, considered too intimate--hard to envision given the one in darkened silhouette but...) The piece was meant to explain away them living together and had lots of false quotes about women coming in and out of "Bachelor Hall" in droves. It was apparently Grant's personal PR guy's (also gay as most PR flacks were then) idea. In H'wood they laughed knowingly, of course. Throughout the rest of a very naive country (anyone reading those mags...fraus, etc.) believed happily. And it is very odd considering that Scott was married for at least 3 of the years they had "Bachelor Hall" and were frau'ing it up, LOL!

It all really changed for the worse (for everyone not just gays) in the 1950s--part of why Bowers was so successful. It became very difficult for gays and bi's in H'wood to meet one another safely. Decades later the subtext of those photos is obvious. She met and knew Scott and Hudson (I've seen notes, Christmas cards from both) and she thinks, as conservative as Scott became in his dotage, he may have been an old guy who came out late in life, had he been old in the late 90s, instead of the 80s; not unlike many old actors these days. Interestingly, she thinks the same about Hudson. Grant and Burr never would have (not even today she says) because they considered themselves, and seem to have genuinely been, bisexual. Cukor told her that Grant didn't fuck a guy again after Scott but was with men exclusively before he got to be well known.

Cukor and Lambert both talked to her about the studios just being one big gay pick up joint for gay men; even for gay women. Cukor especially said you didn't have to walk 100 feet to meet a guy.

R134 Flynn was an alcoholic--what happened to him and Barrymore was sad but due to addiction not the inability to age gracefully.

Randolph Scott's first wife, Marion duPont Somerville, a "consummate sportswoman who devoted her life to the breeding and proving of thoroughbred horses."

Interestingly, Randy Scott was the best man at her first marriage, to Thomas Somerville. Both marriages produced no children.

Let's try that again... Marion duPont Somerville Scott.

Pictures of Randy and Cary together at home

I don't know why Marion and Randolph ever got married. He was familiar with central Virginia but obviously was bored out of his mind there.

I was lucky to walk through Montpelier before the big renovation. In the basement, there was a room full of old washing machines (love) and a room with a gym floor with a cut-out in it. We were told Randolph Scott lifted weights in there and needed the higher ceiling, but in truth I've heard it was a cockfighting pit.

In the hallway was an old railroad freight shipping container full of old cans of turtle soup, shipped from Florida. That's the kind of crap I want to see.

[quote]Flynn was an alcoholic--what happened to him and Barrymore was sad but due to addiction not the inability to age gracefully.

R136 -If you read any bios of Flynn, you will find stories about his bad health early on. He had a heart attack back when he did "Gentleman Jim" and when he returned to shooting. ALexis Smith (his co star) told him to take care of himself - they didn't want to lose him. Flynn bluntly told her that he didn't care to live a long life. Obviously, he wasn't interested in aging gracefully (it's not possible to know if he had to ability to do so or not. He clearly was not interested.) or taking care of his body at all. He had vices galore. He lived a totally hedonistic life and was self destructive. He chose that way of life early on.

My comments about Grant "aging gracefully", compared him not to his contemporaries, but to current day stars who try to cling to their youth with plastic surgery, even in the roles they take, continuing to take roles with leading ladies who are way, way, way too young for them (See Sean Connery and Catherine Zeta Jones --- EWWWWW!)

Grant also continued to pursue ideas and knowledge during his life which is known to be a pursuit that may help to extend life.

R141 I think people who are afraid they won't live a long life are also very cavalier about it, mostly because they are scared. Re: Grant versus the stars of today, that I don't argue at all. It is a fake world in which kids are growing up and it's sad.

Who???

R143 go find a New Directions or Leo thread...they're ALL over DL...follow the trail of diaper smell

Latterly, Betsy Drake (92 years young!) has taken to claiming that CG couldn't have been gay because he was "fucking" her (her inelegant turn of phrase) for the better part of a decade as his third wife. Curiously, in the rom-com "Every Girl Should Be Married" (49), she plays a perky but weird stalker, while CG spends most of the movie resisting her aggressive attempts to get him to marry, and then fuck (in that post-Code order) her.

And if that was the case, she is correct.

[quote]Cukor told her that Grant didn't fuck a guy again after Scott but was with men exclusively before he got to be well known.

I can believe that. It explains the years of therapy, the failed marriages, and the lLSD. Cary Grant worked so hard trying to be "Cary Grant" that I can see his sexuality being just one more thing he created to fit the role.

Who, r144?

I LOVE this photo of the two of them. Anyone who isn't blind can see that they were intimate here.

Sorry wrong link...I love this beautiful photo.

OK , tell me that the mincing prisspot of Randy running from his cabana or pool house onto the diving board at R149's link at 0.44 sec. is NOT gay. Seriously. Just look at him there. No offense if anyone else runs like that. I do on occasion.

So obvious those two were not only in a relationship, but in love. I can't believe anyone could doubt that. Beautiful men.

Cary overdosed on some drug right after his first marriage. Anyone with a brain in his head can figure that out.

Apparently there was more than one attempt, R153. Cukor told my friend there were several.

I believe that Scott and Grant were in love, and that they both also fucked their various wives. People want different things at different times.

Or it could have been a sense of duty, R155. I've fucked women I was "involved" with because it was expected of me. I tried to please them, but I only enjoyed it once or twice(once because the girl looked very boyish and had small boobs and the ass of a guy). Most of the time I had to conjure images of hot males to keep myself erect and to finally cum. That's life in the closet(which I've been leaving behind more and more lately, a lot of it thanks to this site).

Randolph Scott is a great example of a movie actor with a large head on a smaller body (relative to head size, that is.)

Thanks for that clear shot, r150. I can finally see that Cary is lighting his cigarette from Randy's cig. I couldn't tell what was happening in earlier posts.

Bisexuality doesn't follow any easy script. I've known people male and female whose main interests went from one gender to another at different points in their lives and others who needed both in their lives.

Grant and Scott probably split, as much as anything, because Grant's took off while Scott basically was a B-movie player for most of his career, although he never had to resort to working for poverty row studios, Grant probably was far more ambitious having come from nothing and probably wanted all the trappings of a superstar life, sexuality aside.

Re: Upthread----Clark Gable didn't come from abject poverty. Joan Crawford had a checkered upbringing but was able to attend Stephens College which in those days was basically a finishing school/junior.

" Cary started out with the boys and he'll end up with the boys."... Hedda Hopper

You oughta know, Ma.

Speaking of YOU R161...does my friend (thanks to her friend & fuck buddy) have some stories about YOU! Oh my dear you were quite a one for a while; quite a top! Being sincere now, it was heartbreaking hearing how sad, sick and alone you ended up.

I'm not sure that Cary Grant was trying to BE Cary Grant, to be something not himself, unlike some others who wanted to obliterate their real background (like Merle Oberon).

Grant frequently inserted his real name (Archie Leach) into movie dialog. I don't think he ever lost the self knowledge of his roots. I don't think that because he loved beautiful clothes, etc., that that meant he was trying to turn himself into "Cary Grant". There is the great quote (mentioned above by another poster) how everyone wants to be Cary Grant - even he does.

Though Grant certainly aged gracefully and retired from acting earlier than he might have, he played opposite far younger leading ladies throughout the 1950s and 60s: Grace Kelly, Eva Marie Saint, Doris Day, Audrey Hepburn, Leslie Caron, et. al.

But then, of course, all of those leading men from the 1930s who were still acting 20 years later did that.

Woman checking name tags against list at the door: "Name?"

Cary Grant: "Cary Grant."

Woman does double take. "You don't look like Cary Grant."

Cary Grant: "No one does."

Joan Crawford was basically a maid at Stephens College, she rarely got to attend classes and left just a short time after she got there.

Off topic, but someone asked earlier in the thread about which DuPont heir Libby Holman married. Holman married Smith Reynolds, heir to the RJ Reynolds tobacco fortune. He was found dead in his bedroom of a gunshot wound to the head after a wild, alcohol infused party at Reynolda, the Reynolds country estate. Libby and Smith's boyfriend, er, personal assistant, Albert Walker were charged with murder but the Reynolds family ordered the charges dropped and paid the pregnant Holman to just go away to avoid scandal. It was one of the most sensational (alleged) murder cases of the 1930s. No one will ever know what really happened that night but the two most plausible solutions are that either Smith walked in on Libby and Ab going at it or Libby walked in on Smith and Ab going at it, and that Smith then ran to his bedroom and shot himself. I am leaving out tons of fascinating and salacious detail. The case was the very loose inspiration for several Hollywood films, including Sing, Sinner, Sing; Reckless with Jean Harlow; and Douglas Sirk's classic Written on the Wind with Dorothy Malone, Rock Hudson and Robert Stack.

Since neither of those annoying old queensever shared their money or their 'business' with us when we wee living in LA we hope something very bad happened to both of them.

As an earlier poster said Grant lived with Orry Kelly in the 30s (when Grant was still Archie Leach) and Grant was a pall bearer at Orry Kelly's funeral in the early 60s. In his day Orry Kelly was a famous film costume designer. He designed Marilyn Monroe's costumes for "Some Like it Hot". Theres a story that Orry Kelly had written a memoir that Grant's lawyers prevented being published. A new documentary called "Women He Undressed' is about film director Gillian Armstrong's search for the memoir and about Orry Kelly's life-including his "boyfriend" Archie Leach.

r169 I hadn't heard about that documentary. It doesn't even appear to be on Gillian Armstrong's wiki page yet, but I read a few reviews of it from a couple of weeks back and it sounds fantastic! Can't wait to see it. Many thanks for mentioning the film.

Would love you to expand on that R30, R162. Hopper was a handsome fellow.

William Hopper had what was basically a walk on cameo appearance in the original "Airport" movie.

More dish on Orry-Kelly . . .

My brother had a friend who did commercials and bit parts in the 40s and 50s. He said there used to be a restaurant which was a hang out where all of the movie stars would go to when they were working on films. He said Randolph Scott came in to the restaurant saying in a very fem way walking around the restaurant saying, ooo! my poor muscles ache they hurt soo. My brother's friend said you just had to be there to grasp that he was gay.

I personally feel those pictures with Cary Grant and Randolph Scott were two straight guys making fun of homos. Some say yes they could afford to live in their own places ,but they lived together because they had a blast bring girls to their place and having sex with them and wild bachelor parties.

On the other hand I read many moons ago that Cary Grant thought Sophia Loren could cure him of his gay side.

The poster who stated his friend told him that the various actors were gay, trying saying that on the Facebook groups on the various actors and they'll cut you to shreds. People actually believe Cesar Romero was bachelor who liked the freedom of being a ladies man. His family reinforces that image of him the women in his group on Facebook make lovey dovey comments who ignore he was gay. Tyrone Power's group on Facebook will block any hint that he might even be bisexual and another group which women make comments which he loved ladies etc. Tyrone's family has a lot of control and they will block anything to the contrary that he loved women only. Errol Flynn's relatives will block anyone making even a remote suggestion that he was bisexual. The relatives keep the homophobia alive big time and they get very nasty, aggressive and they will censor you. Even Rock Hudson is thee only one out of everyone in Hollywood who they say is gay, right! one actor! And even Rock they want to make claims he was bisexual which he definitely was not. Montgomery Clift was 100% well known homosexual ,yet they are trying to change that and say he was bisexual which is not even true. Debbie Reynolds said Montgomery Clift and Elizabeth Taylor had sex in her swimming poo in front of people which I strongly don't buy ! HE WAS GAY!! He was just Liz Taylor's gay friend which she loved and had many.

r173, thanks for posting the link about the Armstrong documentary and Kelly's lost manuscript.

However, while it all sounds potentially tantalizing, the few snippets of Kelly's about Hollywood that are quoted come off as rather dismal and unfunny. I hope there's more to it all than that.

[quote]On the other hand I read many moons ago that Cary Grant thought Sophia Loren could cure him of his gay side.

I always thought the level he professed to be in love with her is kind of like how a gay man who is trying desperately to be straight would be around a woman who he's convinced himself he's in love with. I think Loren knew that and that's why she rebuffed him.

A great comedic performance by Cary that hasn't been mentioned yet and is often overlooked was in Howard Hawks' I Was a Male War Bride (1949) in which he played a high-ranking French military officer married to the delicious Ann Sheridan as an American WAC officer, and forced to go drag to be permitted entrée to the US (sounds very convoluted but somehow it's not).

I'll also mention a few other favorite performances of his from that era: The Bachelor and the Bobbysoxer opposite teenage Shirley Temple, Mr. Blandings Builds HIs Dream House opposite Myrna Loy, and Monkey Business, anther zany Hawks screwball comedy opposite Ginger Rogers and a very young and ripe Marilyn Monroe.

All of his female costars always shone brighter opposite Cary.

I agree with 176. I just read an autobiography and it discusses that whole situation with S. Loren. She married Carlo Ponti by proxy, (who does this?) without telling Grant until the wedding was finalized. Cary had a fit but in the book it alluded to the fact that he couldn't get his way was why he was so upset not particularly because he couldn't "get" Sohpia.

I find it very odd that later in life he always married much much younger women. It was almost like they were too young to know about Randolph Scott or they were too naive to figure out that Grant was obviously gay and an open "secret" in Hollywood.

I think that the only true happiness Cary found was with Randolph and that relationship and the one he had with his daughter.

[quote]On the other hand I read many moons ago that Cary Grant thought Sophia Loren could cure him of his gay side.

If it were possible to fuck the gay away, young Sophia Loren would have been the gal to do it.

[quote]Debbie Reynolds said Montgomery Clift and Elizabeth Taylor had sex in her swimming poo ...

HOT!

R176 Also by that point--actually for quite some time given what Hepuburn the Elder said about him--he had been known to treat women badly. And she couldn't have *not* heard the rumors--would've been impossible. R171 Trying to get clearance from my friend to say what she has told me because it was a LOT and came straight from the man himself, but is largely unknown.

Watched Scott this morning in the underrated Roberta--unless he was in a western it was almost impossible for him to hide the gay.

R177, "I Was a Male War Bride" and "Mr Blandings Build His Dream House" are two of my favorite Cary Grant films. Both are available online with a little searching.

Does anyone remember the Grant interview where he was asked which role was most like him in real life? From memory the one he picked was Walter Eckland in "Father Goose." Does anyone know if that's right? My Google-Fu was not strong with this one.

At least Cary retired from the entertainment biz in a classy way (like Johnny Carson.) After his final film (Walk, Don't Run, with Jim Hutton and Samantha Eggar), he never did some crappy TV series, or guest spots on "The Love Boat," etc.

Yes, he's on record as saying Walter Iceland was the most like him in real life. I've seen several photos of him after he retired, and I think that's accurate. He spent a lot of time at the horse races in later years (He was on the Board and I think a part owner of Hollywood Park), and in those photos he's generally sporting a 2 day growth and is very casually dressed.

Michael Caine tells the story about a woman coming up to the two of them and asking for Michael's autograph. As he's signing it, she turns to Cary Grant and says "We've been here a week and he's the only celebrity we've seen."

[quote]Michael Caine tells the story about a woman coming up to the two of them and asking for Michael's autograph. As he's signing it, she turns to Cary Grant and says "We've been here a week and he's the only celebrity we've seen."

Oh, that's sad. This is unrelated, but that reminds me of a bit in The Making of The Shining (the documentary filmed by Kubrick's daughter) where some people are visiting the set and they're making a fuss over Jack Nicholson, asking for his autograph and so on, and James Mason (who must've been filming in a neighbouring studio and came to see Kubrick) is standing just beside Nicholson and none of the fans are remotely concerned about him and he's just standing there, graciously suffering the indignity of a once famous star now being completely ignored.

Orry-Kelly was a very lucky man, to get a young Cary Grant.

'Night and Day': gay genius plays gay genius, but gay is the pink elephant in all the film's rooms. (1946!) Plus of course Cole Porter was no Cary Grant, and must have found the casting droll on many levels. As indeed would all those In The Know.

R162, thanks for your interesting posts and insider information from your elder gay friend. I always thought the chemistry between Burr and Hopper on "Perry Mason" was palpable. Are we to infer from your post that Hopper was topping Burr?

r185, if I remember correctly, James Mason and his family were the visitors to the set and all were collected around Nicholson; Shelley Duvall was the one being ignored.

r189 Oh, God, really?! All these years I assumed they were random fans. There was a look of unease on Mason's face, which I mistakenly read as embarrassment at being ignored. Thanks for the correction.

Well, you're right in that random fans in that situation would have focused on Nicholson to the exclusion of all else, too.

According to a biographer, when young Archie Leach was shacking up with openly gay Orry-Kelly, and struggling to break into vaudeville, he was earning a living escorting older NYC society women to all their high falutin' soirees. This gave Archie ample opportunity to study how the elite dressed, behaved, and spoke. Soon enough, he had fine-tuned his appearance, manners, and speech to such a point that he became NY society's most in-demand gigolo. This alarmed Orry-Kelly, who felt this would harm both their burgeoning careers. They had a big argument about it at George Burns party. George was livid at such an open "display of homosexuality." Archie moved out soon after that.

I went to one of his last "Evening with Cary Grant" shows, maybe 6 months before he died. The premise was that he would answer questions from the audience, but I guarantee you there wasn't a single unscripted syllable that came out of his mouth all evening. The majority of the questions were asked by obvious plants, and the couple that did slip through he completely ignored and just talked about whatever was next in his script.

Almost everything was word for word stuff I had heard before or read in old interviews.

Nothing wrong with that, it was a sell-out and the crowd got to see a legend, but even then he wouldn't let anyone see behind the curtain.

We are, we are. Still awaiting a green light from my friend. I can say that it was torrid and conducted mostly on weekends in Malibu where they both had homes. Burr told my friend a lot of sex happened on the Mason lot but never the two of them--it was a deep, dark secret. They did not end of very friendly, apparently and much of it was due to the fact that Hopper fell in love with Burr and he was too terrified of Hedda; can't blame him. Actress Gail Patrick Jackson, who produced the show, was fit to be tied over her oversexed actors, Barbara Hale's marriage nearly breaking up and the drug stuff (and likely bisexuality from what I hear) of Hamilton Burger. Burr told my friend that he didn't really blame her; that the height of Perry Mason's fame he was pretty voracious with men and women. He said it was a case of "a fat little boy finally being popular." I'm guessing just horny but...

Oh and when he wasn't doing Burr, apparently Hopper surfed and loved picking up surfer twinks.

Back to Cary -- my favorite is His Girl Friday; he was one of the few guys in town that could tame Rosalind Russell.

My favorite exchange in that movie, spoken by Russell and Grant as Hildy and Walter:

"Hildy: A big fat lummox like you - hiring an airplane to write: 'Hildy, don't be hasty, remember my dimple.' Walter. It delayed our divorce twenty minutes while the judge went out to watch it.

"Walter: I've still got the dimple, and in the same place."

I've tried to imagine that dimple many times over the years...!

Yeah, I think 'His Girl Friday' is my favorite of his, too. He made some real masterpieces with Howard Hawks. 'Bringing Up Baby', 'Only Angels Have Wings' - really against type in the latter, too. It's kind of shocking to watch him in such a dark, dour role.

Hopper and Burr on the set.

I actually met and talked to Raymond Burr, along with several other Army guys in Vietnam back in '65. He used to make quiet, undisclosed trips to Vietnam just to socialize with the troops all during the war. He would drop into the various EM and NCO clubs and have the bar set up drinks for anyone who was in there. Then he or his people would invite us to sit with him and chat. Tables were pushed together and we all sat with him. Very personable and witty and interested in all of us there. A very nice memory at a very terrible time.

Thanks for the fabulous intel, R194! One's gaydar pinged at what one only dared imagine on that set. haha And Barbara Hale in the mix, no less; I was certain she was just the beard.

Lovely story about Burr visiting the troops, R198.

R184,I read in a biography Cary Grant A Dark Heart that "None But The Lonely" was closest to the real Cary Grant/Archie Leach. It is the story of a cockney man who discovers the meaning of life after his mother dies, played by Ethel Barrymore (who won the Academy Award that year for best supporting actress in that role.).

Also R186 I read in that same book that Cole Porter specifically asked for Cary Grant to play him in "Night and Day" and was very pleased with Cary's performance although Cary himself was not.

Although the book does not discuss Cary's gayness it does tell again and again of his bad marriages and how he was miserable in all of them. Of course he was, he was a gay man trying to pretend for the public that he was straight.

I can't help but feel really sad about Cary and Randolph and what wasted lives in a sense they had in the love department.

[quote]Cole Porter specifically asked for Cary Grant to play him in "Night and Day" and was very pleased with Cary's performance although Cary himself was not.

When asked by the studio who he wanted to play him in the bio-pic, Cole Porter, a short, slender, fey man with a monkey-like face, was being completely sarcastic when he replied "Cary Grant." Porter was much amused that they took him at his word, feeling that it reinforced his opinion that Hollywood was silly and second-rate compared to Broadway.

Over the years, there have been numerous straight couples who've played lovers onscreen. Can you imagine if the same were true for gay lovers? What if Cary and Randy had played lovers on the screen? Or Brando and Cox? Total fantasy, I know, but imagine how exhilarating and liberating and stereotype-busting. Sadly, that day still is not here.

Good thing we have the Internet. Since my grandmother died I don't know where else besides the Internet I would find out about any names mentioned on this thread.

R203, the Internet is a great big place. If you don't like conversations about long-dead celebrities, why do you keep posting on this thread when there are literally a billion other places you could be?

LOL R204, I think he was trying to be funny there....

I also thought R203 was being complimentary, not critical.

R203 was being bitchy R206.

R203 has proven he is a cunt elsewhere.

Why does every thread end up in a fight?

This is why we can't have nice things.

Moving on... Wonder what size cock did Cary have. He sort of looks like an 8 incher because life is unfair and he got everything except his man.

Because, r209, Arocept and other drugs do not help you form or retain newer memories. Therefore, those of us without dementia get really tired of the threads about decades dead hactors and hactresses.

Maria Riva wrote in her book that when her mother Marlene and Cary co-starred in "Blonde Venus," Marlene wanted his cock BAD. Like REALLY BAD. Cary was always polite to her, but he never took Marlene up on her offer. They remained friends anyway. If you look up pics of Marlene Dietrich in the early 30s, she was stunning. A straight man would've been all over that. I tend to believe Grant was gay and the later marriages were just for show.

You can't blame Marlene for going nuts over Cary Grant in 1932. We all would've been begging for his cock if we'd been around back then.

Any question on the cunt thing, now? Sad jealous little twat...

[quote]You can't blame Marlene for going nuts over Cary Grant in 1932. We all would've been begging for his cock if we'd been around back then.

Including Mae West, who saw him on the lot and asked who he was. She wanted him in her next film whether he could act or not. Fortunately for her, he could.

I am the same age as George Clooney and I always suspected that Clooney was channeling Cary Grant in a not so subtle way. They resemble each other slightly but Cary is much more handsome.

Just an aside, Raymond Burr made a pass at my father. Gotta love that.

Wait, R217 more info please.

R217 Of course he did! Why do you think he went to Vietnam? There was much talk of that, LOL! A friend of a friend's mother was an Army nurse in Vietnam and not only did he make a pass at her, she slept with him. Twice.

R218, My father used to spend a lot of time at an Antiquarian book store in Hollywood. One day Burr came in looking for a copy of Head Hunters in the Solomon Islands. My father had two copies and offered to give Burr one of them. The later made a "date" to meet at a coffee shop to drop off the book. Burr kept trying to get my dad to go to his house for drinks instead of staying at the coffee shop. I was very insistent and very touchy feely.

R220 You father didn't tell you the whole story.

The red carpet video coverage of the "A Star is Born"(1954) premiere has Raymond Burr being interviewed and he brought a young sailor in uniform with him, "right back from Korea". Burr's appearance begins at 6:40.

How ironic that an internationally famous movie star like Cary Grant should die in Davenport, Iowa.

Fun fact, Cary and Natalie Wood both died on the same day, November 29th, five years apart. Natalie in 1981, Cary in 1986.

R20, Grant was fixated on Sophia Loren, the way a gay male could be. In the early 1990s she admitted there was no affair; later she changed it to there was an affair because people like the story. Especially those who desperately want Grant to be straight.

Fun story: Cary Grant was on the board of directors at Fabrege in the 60s and 70s. Every Christmas he would send Bette Davis a big gift box of Fabrege products. Bette would open the box, hold it up in front of her, and exclaim "Cary Grant has sent me Fabrege again. I HATE Fabrege!" And she would then put it in her re-gifting closet to be given to someone else.

R223 Fun fact unless you're Cary or Natalie. R220 I swear I am not being bitchy, but how did you manage to switch pronouns to "I?" "I was very touchy feely." Also do you know what year that was? Just curious. :)

But that sounds right. My friend says he was the sweetest, most generous person she's ever known, and among the brightest. But she also says that he was definitely the most oversexed in the most charming of ways, of course. Swept her off her feet when she was 19 and this girl loves women. (And not angrogy dykes mind you but "women." LOL)

What interview was that, R224?

R226, I think it was between 1973 and 1977. Sorry about the pronoun change. It is very weird, even to me.

R228 Honestly just kidding you...He was apparently very (very!) active during the Ironside years, although he aged badly. I asked my friend about that because she was a beautiful 19 year old--just couldn't imagine what in Hell would make a young, pretty, gay girl sleep with him on and off for like 10 years. Those were not good years for him--beard helped but still. She said he was the most charming and magnetic person she had ever known and he, uh, taught her a lot in bed. To my dismay I still can't get details on that.

Back to my half my favorite H'wood couple Grant & Scott, Loren always maintained they had an "affair." This is from an article in 1979:

Even Hollywood gossip Louella Parsons never knew about the affair between Cary Grant and Sophia Loren during the 1956 filming of The Pride and the Passion. While on location in Spain, the 22-year-old actress and Grant, then 52, "dined in romantic little restaurants, drank good Spanish wine, laughed and fell in love." As Loren reveals in her new biography, Sophia, Cary proposed, but she had already invested six years in her relationship with mentor Carlo Ponti. He was then married to another woman. Still confused ("In love with two men? How could it be possible?"), Sophia came to Hollywood, where she played house with Ponti by night and in Houseboat with Grant by day (right). When Cary kept calling her, an anxious Ponti obtained a divorce and married Sophia by proxy in Mexico. At that point Houseboat had one final scene to film—of all things, a full-dress wedding. "It was the wedding I had always dreamed of," Sophia recalls. "A very unkind quirk of cinematic fate." Cary Grant's office says today: "You may feel free to tell Miss Loren's side of the story."

I don't think it was a pronoun change -- you probably meant to say "It was very insistent and touchy feeley..." but dropped the T...

Sophia Loren and Grant...really? This just does not compute. He was known to NOT have on the set romances and she does not even remotely resemble the type of woman he was normally with. His ladies were all nearly anorexic or Joanne Woodward types.

1986

[quote]I am the same age as George Clooney and I always suspected that Clooney was channeling Cary Grant in a not so subtle way.

No doubt. I see Clooney looking in the mirror and asking "What would Cary do?" at every turn in the road.

Although I'm going back and forth between this thread and the thread about Tom Cruise getting married again, and the parallels between their two personas is creepy. Many of the posts work equally well in either thread.

There was no sex hence the " " around the affair. Those desperate letters she has from them are pretty sad, though. Could he have been hoping this would be a het legacy kind of thing down the road? One wonders. He tried awfully hard with women from 1950 on...poor Dyan Canon (well not poor she annoys the shit out of me) has the bruises to prove it.

This thread is the first time I have ever heard of Raymond Burr not being 100% gay. People I know who knew him told me that he was gay.

Why do I feel like Dyan Cannon was pregnant before she got married. Or as they did back then, get married because they "had" to. No doubt though Cary Grant loved being a parent. I sure he was very happy to marry Dyan. No surprise then that they married lasted but a short time as is many times the case when an unexpected pregnancy happens.

* their marriage.

I suspect that the pregnancy was the entire reason for the relationship and marriage. It was most likely written into the contract. He was looking for family around that time, something he never had.

Hasn't there always been doubt as to whether or not Cary was Jennifer's real father? Jennifer is the spitting image of Dyan, there's not a trace of Cary.

Was there anything at all to the Raymond Burr/Natalie Wood pairing in the 1950's, or was it just for publicity purposes?

Speaking of Dyan Cannon she also annoys the shit out of me. To me she just epitomizes those aging LA women who are NOT GOING TO GIVE IT UP. Still trying to look like they're 25 when they could be the mother or even grandmother of a 25 year-old and they just look fucking ridiculous. LA is the world capital of this type of woman, you see them everywhere you go.

Nothing makes you look older than trying to look like you're still in your 20s.

R241, I don't know, she looks pretty good to me but I get your point. She's got to be at least in her 70s right?

I believe that he was a bit of a control freak which is why we know so little about him. He would have made certain that she was his child.

I don't think they had that kind of DNA testing back the R243 but I could be wrong about that. I'm sure too that Cary's daughter must have inherited his millions. The strange thing though was when asked when he was older if he knew what she was majoring in at Stamford or wherever she went and he did not know. For someone who claimed to be such an involved and loving father he didn't even know what she was studying which I found odd. That also makes me believe that a lot of the so called involved photos of him with his daughter were all publicity stunts. Kind of like a Joan Crawford thing. I mean after all Cary had NO parental guidance as a child. He was abandoned to the state correct?

Bitchy interlude notwithstanding, this thread keeps getting better and better. The juicy insider info is DL at its best.

R237 Supposedly CG had never wanted kids. Likely an accident with Cannon (for whom it may not have been an accident--one never knows...) who although she annoys me was absolutely gorgeous early in her career. And then he doted on the child.

R236 Absolutely *not* 100% gay and was likely *his* biggest problem. Which is not to say that he didn't fuck every man that walked for a time. Even my friend says that he was quite prolific. As for his "friends," he didn't talk about his sexuality or personal life ever, to even his closest friends. She says that actor Charles Macaulay was his on and off lover in the 70s (*his* lover poet Leeland "Lee" Hickman died of AIDS in 1991, Macaulay died in 1999--she was very close to both men) and he told her he slept with Burr but they never discussed sex, who was gay, etc. He just didn't talk about it at all. (She seemed to have a very different experience with him--judging from the letters that I've seen.)

But he slept with Jeanne Cooper on and off throughout the 1960s, 1970s, had an affair several actresses on PM and Ironside and according to my friend came very close to a marriage with a starlet whose name I can't recall. It was very real--you can see the chemistry on the the Mason episode she's in--probably successful because she was bisexual, and knew about him. He thought they could have a good life together, family, etc. and were going to marry but it turned out she was very unstable. She ended up dead (overdose or suicide, it was never clear) just a couple of years later. The Natalie Wood thing--my friend says he always swore he was in love with her but she suspects it was not real. She says it's possible--he liked young (as young as he could get) dark hair and dark eyes--but he didn't speak about her the way he did others. He seemed more bitter that the studio intervened than anything. He did tell her he had never really and truly found love. The supposed partner, Robert, was his paid trick in the early days and really became more of a traveling companion/secretary/business partner/and long time friend. She says that he was a total bitch to Burr who left him everything (except for large gifts he quietly gave friends the last 2 years) largely because Burr's family is hideous--but also so he could dig the winery out of debt, and he hoped he'd keep quiet about his life. Of course he outted him as soon as he died. She also says the gravy train ended for many people when he died--he had paid out some serious hush money over the decades. Myself, I'm not a fan of Burr. But she makes a real case for him...

I can totally see the love story between Cary Grant and Randolph Scott as an HBO film. Somebody really needs to make this happen.

R247 Jennifer Grant would sue your ass faster than you can say, "I just went gay all of a sudden!"

I don't think Jennifer Grant would be able to do anything legally.

Chris Pine as Randolph Scott!

Who could possibly play Cary Grant?

On Raymond Burr, I've also heard he was totally gay. Film historian Ted Newsom recounted how neighbors would see him picking up the newspaper on his front lawn wearing nothing but a robe, and if a hot guy happened to be walking by, he would open the robe so that his cock and balls could be seen. I don't know if he ever got any action that way, but maybe he got off on being an exhibitionist. I guess that's not proof that he didn't like women too, but it sounds pretty damn gay to me.

R251 I just told my friend that story and she laughed her ass off--as much about him getting the paper (never she says) as the exposing. Says he was very embarrassed by his body and often had sex clothed. She also says there is a story about him wearing a faggy pink robe that has come from any number of sources and that's complete BS, too. As you rightly say this does not preclude sex with women--highly oversexed it seems.

She did say, however, that there would have been A LOT to expose though with his weight it would have been very hard to see. Putting it that way I'd have to say she's right. And yuck.

Clooney and Costner playing Grant and Scott in their twilight years would be... Oscar bait.

R245 You know there's not much gossip to be had about younger stars these days; most of them are such bores. But the best dish I ever get is from 3 gay women friends of mine who are all in the business. I've worked in film & TV for 30 years, on big projects with big stars, but never actually *saw* much of anything. These girls not only have the dirt it's all real. Not like the shit I hear from my friends, "Oh I have a friend of a friend who slept with Will Smith." Yeah, right. If I had a nickle from every time I heard that crap. But these girls, especially my two best friends, amazing stuff.

Is Grant's last wife, Barbara, still alive?

[quote] On April 11, 1981, Grant married Barbara Harris, a British hotel public relations agent who was 47 years his junior. They renewed their vows on their fifth wedding anniversary. (Fifteen years after Grant's death, Harris married former Kansas Jayhawks All-American quarterback David Jaynes in 2001.)[30]

Some, including Hedda Hopper[31] and screenwriter Arthur Laurents, have said that Grant was bisexual.[32] Grant was allegedly involved with costume designer Orry-Kelly when he first moved to Manhattan,[33] and lived with actor Randolph Scott off and on for 12 years.[34] Richard Blackwell wrote that Grant and Scott were "deeply, madly in love."[35] Scotty Bowers alleged in his memoir Full Service (2012)[36] that he was a lover of both Grant and Scott's.[37] William McBrien, in his biography Cole Porter, says that Porter and Grant frequented the same upscale house of male prostitution in Harlem, run by Clint Moore and popular with celebrities.[38] All of these claims were published many years after Grant had died.

Barbara Harris, Grant's widow, has disputed claims that Grant had a relationship with Scott.[39] When Chevy Chase joked in a television interview about Grant's being gay, Grant sued him for slander; they settled out of court.[40] However, Grant's one-time girlfriend Maureen Donaldson wrote in her memoir, An Affair to Remember: My Life with Cary Grant (1989), that Grant told her his first two wives had accused him of being homosexual.[citation needed] In Chaplin's Girl, a biography of Grant's first wife Virginia Cherrill, Miranda Seymour wrote that Grant and Scott were only platonic friends.[41]

Former showgirl Lisa Medford claimed that Grant wanted her to have his child, but she did not want children.[42] Grant's daughter Jennifer Grant wrote that her father was not gay in her memoir, Good Stuff (2011).[43][44][45] Jennifer's mother, Grant's fourth wife Dyan Cannon, also said when promoting her memoir of Grant[46] in 2012, that Grant had not been gay.[47]

R255, I believe you. Thanks for the dish. Apparently, it's easier for the public to believe Burr was a lewd exhibitionist who flashed people on his lawn and was 100% gay, than the more complex story you've told of a self-described, repressed "fat kid" who was ashamed of his body and behaved, in his later years, like a pansexual sex addict.

Conversely, Cary Grant's story is that of a self-loathing gay man who repressed his true self, Archie Leach, with such ironclad control that he denied himself the great love of his life. As a result, he sunk into depression and repeated suicide attempts. The control that 'Cary' still exerts over Archie from beyond the grave is evident in the denials of his wife and daughter.

I have mentioned this before on DL. My mother had a friend who was once a costume designer in Hollywood. She told my mother that Raymond Burr liked males as young as boys. She told my mother way before it was hinted that he was gay.

BTW, if Cary Grant was gay and Randolph Scott was as well, why didn't Hollywood Confidential magazine, Whisper, etc. picked it up back then and outed them? I remember Suise Lee on DL who said if someone was gay back then they wouldn't hesitate to out movie stars. Also, Tyrone Power wasn't outed a long with others. There is a guy on the Tyrone Power discussion board on Wikipedia who said he works in Hollywood for some present day movie actor which the public thinks he is gay ,but he is totally straight. The guy investigated and spoke to myriads of people form the golden age of Hollywood and asked them if Tyrone Power was gay or bisexual and he said every single one of them said Tyrone was straight. Tyrone Power's daughter just wrote a book which she claims she investigated thoroughly if he was gay or not and she said there is nothing that even remotely states he was gay or bisexual. Also, Dyan Cannon swears Cary Grant was straight. I know I sound like one of those Facebook fangurls but I was wondering what dose everyone on DL think about all of this? because I'm confused. On the Raymond Burr there is no doubt he was gay,but what about the others that have stated in my post?

R258 When people "thoroughly investigate" what someone now long dead did behind closed doors, what evidence do they hope to uncover that the person left behind? Being homosexual was illegal and would have ruined a career. Would a big star, savvy about PR and surrounded by handlers, leave a trail of breadcrumbs to his favorite glory hole? Perhaps, a photo album of his favorite dicks? A signed confession?

I think he was at least bi, but it's always puzzled me that the Chevy Chase lawsuit got filed and Grant actually collected cash from it. The usual scenario is a couple angry letter from the attorney followed by a public apology, but this went far beyond that.

I would have thought that opening himself up to depositions under oath and the investigations a good law firm would have conducted would have been the last thing Grant would have wanted if there were skeletons in the closet.

R260: Remember, Liberace sued and won, too.

But I imagine Cary Grant did not consider himself to be "gay" -- as he had had sex with women -- and could deny it under oath.

It's not as if Chase's attorneys had photos of Grant with a dick in him.

I went to school with Tyrone Powers son, and he admitted that his father had sex wit men. He said that his father's comment was something to the effect that it was easier than saying no, and rarely did anyone want to repeat the experience. I thought it was a weird comment as it was pretty much admitting that TP was underwhelming in the bedroom one way or another.

R262, Your friends father was not about to admit all of the details of his sex life to his son. Seriously what father would?

There's no proof and since both are dead, you're unlikely to ever get it. I think it's pretty rude to slam someone when you have no evidence.

R264 what are you even talking about? Saying someone is gay is not "slamming" someone. Hater.

R258, I wonder if you've actually read the thread. Nobody is denying that Burr had sex with men and boys; but he apparently also had sex with women and girls (R162's friend was 19). Regarding the outing of gays in Hollywood, the studios had too much money invested in their stars to let that happen. The cops and journos were paid hush money, or given stories that were massaged, like the one in Screenland featuring Cary and Randy playing house. Like someone said upthread, that extensive photo spread may have been a response to blackmail. The public lapped it up.

R263, Tyrone Power, Jr was born after his father died. Unless it was a seance, he did not get the info directly from his father, which may be why he was so comfortable with the information. His father was more of a concept than a person, as he never met him. Tyrone, Jr. was/is a very cool together person. At least at the time, he did not have a lot of hang ups and baggage. He certainly was more together than the vast majority of stars sons.

R265, I don't think that's what R264 was getting at, but it's hard to tell without knowing which post he's referring to.

R266, don't forget also that the studios were known to sacrifice a lesser star to the tabloids to shield a bigger one from scandal.

It was also common knowledge that Errol Flynn's arrest in 1942 on charges of statutory rape happened because Warner's payoffs to the cops had lapsed, that year.

And people wonder why the subject of this thread is relevant, today. Clearly, the closet is still alive and well in Hollywood.

I don't doubt Jennifer is Grant's daughter. She looks just like her mother but she also has a slight cleft in her chin, although of course it's nowhere near pronounced as Grant's. I think he was very conflicted and was likely miserable most of the time because of it. Even Cannon has said that he wasn't a very happy person. I think his feelings for Loren were probably real in that maybe he felt she was "the one" who could resolve or put an end to his conflicted nature. Of course, we know it doesn't actually work that way. If I had to guess, I'd bet that Scott was the love of his life. I have no insider info on any of this, just my own speculation.

The Natalie Wood/Raymond thing is bizarre but it fits if you know her history. She was drawn to "father figure" types and was trying to assert her independence from her controlling mother (who was an absolute nightmare stage mother from hell). She was infatuated with Burr's sophistication and apparently the feelings were at least reciprocated in part by him. They spent a lot of alone time together to the point that the studio put a stop to it. She was 17/18 at the time. In one of the books I've read, Burr's longtime partner talked about what he knew about their relationship. He said Burr wouldn't talk about it much, but that the experience had made him bitter toward the studio. Apparently he did occasionally have flings with women, but whether or not the friendship/relationship with Natalie was ever consummated, who knows?

If they were in their late teens or early 20's they could pass themselves off as roommates. Anything beyond that is definitely cause for speculation and assumption. 😉

Well, whatever their PR teams concocted, it served as a tongue-in-cheek bachelor story that fooled the public. Their careers went forward, untouched by scandal. Scott became the rough, tough cowboy and Grant became the debonaire ladies' man. Talk about playing against type!

"BTW, if Cary Grant was gay and Randolph Scott was as well, why didn't Hollywood Confidential magazine, Whisper, etc. picked it up back then and outed them?"

Confidential Magazine was around in the 1950s, and Grant and Scott had broken up a decade earlier, and both were doing their damndest to appear straight or to actually BE straight. Then, as now, the rag was much more interested in current scandals than old news.

R273 that is very true. These guys were in their early 30s. It's funny that they are supposedly "saving expenses" while sharing not only a mansion with a manservant but a house directly on the beach that was very large as well. I guess it's all relative.

The fact that Cary's first wife by all accounts moved into that mansion in the Hollywood Hills WITH Randy living their also is just too telling. I mean the house was large but who would put up with that as a newlywed person? Clearly, it was some kind of arrangement and she knew about the two men before she married Cary. She must have.

It's funny also, how in most photos of the two men they look relaxed and comfortable with each other. In the photos of each man with his respective spouse they look either miserable or completely detached. No matter the case, clearly they were a pair. I think it also takes one to know one as the expression goes. A gay man can almost always spot another gay couple. At least in my experience.

UK comedian and quizmaster Bob Monkhouse worked with Tyrone Power when young and prettyish. He was summoned to a meeting with Power, who was in the bath. The star got out of the water, and said 'What are you going to do about this, young man?', referring to his huge hard-on. Monkhouse made his excuses and left.

Re: R260. If Chevy Chase had fought the lawsuit he would have been taking on a globally beloved star of Hollywood's Golden Age. Even if he had bothered with the contest, to justify a woeful 'joke', and later somehow 'won' - he would have been reviled for the rest of his days. Grant knew this, so sued big and won to end any such further public loose talk for the rest of his days.

And yes, Liberace had a similar victory, in London - as did Tom Cruise.

Great story, R277. This thread just keeps giving...

Have to wonder if Raymond Burr and Montgomery Clift ever hooked up during the filming of "A Place in the Sun".

R252, thanks for letting me know that the stories and Burr and the newspapers were a lie. Even though the source is generally reliable about film history, some of his gossipy tales sometimes don't pass the smell test, and I always found it strange that Burr would be living in a neighborhood full of people who would see him getting the paper from his lawn. As far as being able to see his dick, I would think it would look nice if seen in his Adventures of Don Juan days; and I always thought he was very handsome as Perry Mason. But thanks for the clarification. This is why I love this place!

In the early 1950s Raymond Burr was as big as a house. Have you not seen Rear Window? Why the hell would the beautiful young Natalie Wood who slept with Robert Wagner and Warren Beatty, among other hunks, be remotely interested, "father figure" or not.

After people have been dead for years it isn't butchery or gossip. It's just sad. Move on queens.

It is very difficult in our current culture where NOTHING is kept secret to understand how back in the Golden Age of Hollywood, stars' sexual proclivities could have possibly been kept under wraps.

But those studio PR departments were immensely powerful. Just think about how they kept scandals like Clark Gable's auto accidents and Paul Bern's death from the press.

R238 so, so true. R281 He actually wasn't as big as a house throughout. He was heavy one minute, normal the next. For that movie, which I saw for the first time last week when my friend said it was being shown as part of TCM's Noir Summer (which has been fabulous) he was puffy but not huge. You can see pics of them together after and he looked very handsome. Her sister says NW was very much in love with him. My friend says she's not sure if it was consummated or not but the way he liked young, it may well have been. One thing which could explain the young thing, he very much had a Daddy complex--he LOVED that role she says, to the point, well...

R252 There is a good deal more but she thinks I've shared enough, LOL. Re: exposing himself, she also quite humorously pointed out that no one walks in LA, especially back then and that there is no way he would risk jail and losing his career to swing his dick on the front lawn. (She is a lady and did not put it quite like that...) Also she says that he sincerely thought he was ugly and hated his body. In his 60s he just gave up dieting altogether.

Someone mentioned Monty but she says no; not for Burr's lack of trying according to Burr himself--said MC was too mentally unstable at that point. Now if there is a movie in which Burr was both homely and huge, it was A Place in the Sun so I don't think it was MC being unstable, LOL! Anyway, she has some GREAT S&M stories about ole Monty... He LOVED being tortured. Could not get enough and he didn't have a bi bone in his body.

Okay before I lose one of my best friends and best source of gossip, LOL...thank gawd she doesn't DL...although I stay with her and use her computer (am now) and she often sees it up on the screen.

[quote]Anyway, she has some GREAT S&M stories about ole Monty... He LOVED being tortured. Could not get enough and he didn't have a bi bone in his body.

Yes, I 'd read that Clift liked S&M parties. Thanks for corroborating. We'll let you go reluctantly, but please do pop in, again!

So did Burr ever get it on with his most famous co-star?

R286 Did you mean Jimmy Stewart, Grace Kelly, Liz Taylor, Barbara Stanwyck, Monty Clift, Errol Flynn (yes)....

Look at the picture, R287.

Supposedly, Tony Curtis idolized Cary Grant and modeled his Some Like It Hot millionaire impersonation on Cary. Tony was over the moon when he got to costar with him in Operation Petticoat. Is it true that they got it on? Tony was also rumored to have flings with Burt Lancaster and Laurence Olivier and was truly bi.

R286 You're presuming I didn't--bit dense of you

In Marc Eliot's book CARY GRANT: a biography, he has quite a bit of information about Cary Grant and Randolph Scott. Apparently, Randy rented an apt in the building that Cary and Virginia Cherrill moved to after they were married and followed them on their honeymoon. Very sad stories he tells about them, it would indeed seem that Randy loved more strongly than Cary. Cary is presented as pretty damaged by his childhood.

I'm trying to remember the story on Grant's childhood... he grew up poor, realizing that his mother seemed to loathe and resent him. He was an adult when he found out that the woman who raised him wasn't actually his mother, that his father had cheated on her and had brought home his illegitimate son for his wife to raise! The wife resented having little Archie foisted on her, and went through the motions of parenthood quite grudgingly. His biological mother had died before he found out about his real parentage.

Oh, and he found out in the late 1930s, and he found out that his late bio mother had been J@wish. This was a big deal, the politics of the pre-war era being what they were. Quite a lot of Americans agreed with Hitler, before the war got serious.

R292, I don't know whose story you're telling, but it's not Cary's. Here is the story of his youth in England:

[quote] Archibald Alexander Leach was born at 15 Hughenden Road, Horfield, Bristol, England, the only surviving child of Elsie Maria Leach (née Kingdon; 1877–1973) and Elias James Leach (1873–1935), a trouser presser.[6][7][8] Young Archie Leach had an unhappy upbringing, attended Bishop Road Primary School and, for just a few months, North Street Wesleyan School in Stokes Croft.[9]

His mother had suffered clinical depression since the death of a previous child. Elias Leach placed Archibald's mother in a mental institution and told the 9-year-old that she had gone away on a "long holiday", later declaring that she had died. When Leach was 10, his father remarried and started a new family that did not include young Archibald. Little is known about how he was cared for, and by whom. Leach did not learn his mother had not died until he was 31, when his father confessed to the lie,[10] shortly before his own death, and told Leach that he could find her alive in a care facility.[11]

And indeed Cary did go find her in England in the mid-1930s, but she was too ill and had to leave her in the institution. N.B. that she lived until 1973, and Cary only lived another 13 years longer than that!

Did Randy Scott make any decent movies after the 1930s? He seemed to usually play boy toy roles in A pictures at RKO in the 30s and then starred in generic B westerns after that. Was he sort of blackballed because of being presumed gay?

r294 I think it's generally accepted now that the westerns he made with Budd Boetticher in the 1950s are not only amongst his best films but some of the best westerns ever made. He also did 'Ride the High Country' in 1961 - a beautiful Sam Peckinpah western.

R294 Really Randolph Scott wasn't the greatest actor. Supposedly when he and his heiress wife were denied membership at the prestigious Los Angeles Country Club because they did not accept actors as members, he had to promise the committee he would never act again. "If you ever saw any of my movies," Scott is quoted as saying, "you'd know I never acted in the first place."

Scott was referenced with reverence in Blazing Saddles

Grant going gay in Bringing up Baby

My friend banned me from more talk of Burr but not GC/RS so... as I said earlier, she knew Scott from 1983 until he died. She said he was fey in that elderly gay man way, extremely sweet and genteel. In all of the times she visited him she never once saw or met the wife but did see a hunky masseur coming to visit once or twice as she was leaving, lol. Said there were pics around of the kids and one of the wife but there were a million of his co-stars and most were GC. And then he would pull out private pics of them together, though none from that shoot that she can see, and she said it left no doubt--said he talked about him a great deal and since Scott knew that she was gay, he was somewhat forthcoming. It was absolutely clear to her that they had been together for many years and that it was GC's unbridled drive to be a star pulled them apart, which is pretty much the same thing that George Cukor and Burr had told her about them. After Grant died he spoke of nothing else to her and was in her words, "completely distraught."

That's extremely sad on so many levels, R299. For Scott, it seems that love was powerful and forever. Unfortunately, I don't think Grant was worthy of his love; he cared more about ambition. But it's also true that Scott had never experienced poverty and abandonment.

P.S. I think you meant "CG," not "GC" (which could be confused with George Cukor, for the uninitiated)

When Cary Grant arrived in Hollywood in 1931 and signed with Paramount, its resident matinee idol, Gary Cooper, was ensconced in Italy with a rich countess, refusing to return. After a year of this nonsense, Paramount retaliated by grooming and promoting its new star as the next Gary Cooper. When Cooper got wind of this young upstart with a similar sounding name, he hightailed it back home and found himself cast in the same movie as his new rival ("The Devil and the Deep"). Gary hated Cary ever since, later commenting that his onscreen mannerisms always got on his nerves.

Ironically, the handsome Cooper bared a striking resemblance to Randolph Scott.

*bore a striking resemblance...

R300 Yes, indeed. Sorry 'bout that! And I agree that some people are just more naturally ambitious and considering his destitute beginnings it's certainly hard to judge. I think he was probably "worthy" of the love but I also think, and i know this is going to sound crazy, but that me may have been less sexually and less driven by sex than many (most?) of us are. There are men who are less sexual, although that's hard to imagine. And let's face it, he was in more great movies than any other actor/actress--no one had as many classics.

R301 That pic is great. But I've always heard young Gary Cooper swung both ways, as well. So was it a Countess or a "countess?" LOL!

Gary Cooper has always bored me to tears. And his looks hit the wall early; he looked aged before his time.

R303, It was Countess Dorothy di Frasso, She groomed and "kept" him and took him to all the posh places along the Riviera, turning the diamond-in-the-rough cowboy into a debonair ladies man. Claire Booth Luce satirized the relationship in "The Women," with Countess de Lage and her dumb cowboy Buck Winston. When Cooper announced that he had to leave Italy and head back to Paramount, the Countess offered to buy Paramount for him.

Clara Bow raved about Gary Cooper's big cock.

Gary Cooper sounds like a big dud. Pretty on the outside, but...

Look, Cary Grant and Amelia Earhart!

One of the best DL threads ever!

Cary

Cary, Ingrid, Hitch

Was Cary's hair when younger jet black? It appears that way in some early color photos but I'm not sure it wasn't dyed for b&w films to look more striking.

Q: What's hung over Randolph Scott's fireplace?

At one point in the 30's Cary,Kate Hepburn and Howard Hughes were sharing a house. Hepburn is quoted a saying" Howard was more interested in Cary then in me."

Randolph Scott would have been so much better as Ashley Wilkes than Leslie Howard.

R305 I did not know that! I love that Countess de Lave story. Brilliant. I always thought he was a total bore, too. R313 I know a little bit about that via my friend. Cukor told her that Cary was the great love of HH's life. (Apparently they all fell for him.) Also, Cukor told her that the "affair" with Hepburn the Elder was exactly the same kind of sexless care-taking thing that she had with Spencer Tracy. She was attracted to broken blossoms as care taker but not sexually. Cukor dished her pretty good to my friend.

R307, that's probably the nicest photo of Amelia Earhart I've ever seen. And Grant is just so extraordinary...

Cary was even prettier than Mae (from "I'm No Angel" 1933)...

R317, of course he was. Mae was no beauty.

Is Darwin Porter considered completely unreliable? I found this bit about Gary Cooper from "Hollywood's Silent Closet" pretty interesting.

Edit to R319. I was looking for a reference that I thought referred to Cooper having "enough dick for any two men" when I found this.

R318, my somewhat tongue-in-cheek point, was that Cary was more feminine than Mae.

R319, Well, it says right on the cover: "A NOVEL by Darwin Porter." That right away tells you it's fiction. All of Darwin Porter's books read like teen fanfiction, with paragraph after paragraph of long, descriptive dialogue between long-dead celebrities that in way could've been documented or remembered in such detail. And that's because none of it happened, except in his fertile imagination.

R317 Talking about campy movie, but Mae surely knew men and saw how beautiful Cary was.

Was Randy Scott even considered for Ashley Wilkes? He was an obvious choice. Does he appear in any of Selznick's endless memos on casting GWTW?

Though it would be during the late 1930s when he was transitioning from pretty boy ingénue of RKO to hardened western hero of the Bs.

They were both handsome skinny and glamorous. Scott especially thin. Did either of them have sizemeat?

[quote]Was Cary's hair when younger jet black? It appears that way in some early color photos but I'm not sure it wasn't dyed for b&w films to look more striking.

Archie Leach arrived at age 16 at the port of New York aboard the SS Olympic on July 28, 1920. The ship manifest, which requested hair and eye color, lists his hair color as "Black"

[quote]Was Randy Scott even considered for Ashley Wilkes? He was an obvious choice. Does he appear in any of Selznick's endless memos on casting GWTW?

Yes, but he played a character similar to Ashley in a honker of a movie called So Red the Rose which was another Civil War epic a few years before and he wasn't very good (at least according to the reviews).

I don't really believe this. Homosexuality is very rare, and certainly no one as famous as Cary Grant, especially way back then, would be involved in it.

R328, don't you know that theater/film/entertainment has the highest percentage of gays of any industry besides beauty and interior design? Look, I'm too lazy to search for statistics, but I'm guessing it's true -- that the stars of Hollywood are a self-selected group of people like us.

Oh, and by they way, R328, "involved in it" is an odd choice of words. With all due respect, are you "involved" in your sexuality, or ARE you your sexuality?

LOL R328 "homosexuality is very rare" that's a good one!

I like your sense of humor. (he types,not meaning it at all)

"No one would be involved in it." You make it sound like gayness is some kind of a social club...

Well, I've never met another homosexual.

I am sorry for not being as sophisticated as you like in my wording. I personally have never engaged in homosexual acts, even though it would be nice.

R328 I apologize for being snarky. I didn't of course realize your situation. I thought you were kidding around. Yes, it would be nice for you participate with another gay man if you would like to. And again, no offense, I took your post the wrong way.

Okay, R332, I'll back off and suggest that you to get out more -- maybe join your local theater group. Any other suggestions for our closeted friend who yearns to breathe free?

Actually, this discussion needs to be nipped in the bud. This has turned weird and troll-y.

Back to Cary Grant, Randolph Scott, and the great love that was. It's surprising there weren't any other great gay "screen couples," hidden or not. I guess Mary Martin and Janet Gaynor sort of count.

It's amazing how many famous actor/actress bi/gay homosexuals never found great love. Many found worker bees that hung on for the ride like Burr and Claudette Colbert, Stanwyck, Rock, etc. But someone like Caesar Romero, who my friend also knew and said was one of the loveliest people she ever met...how could he not have had a great love? God he was a beautiful man right until the end.

Someone needs to tell him that we are not a rare breed of men.

We are normal guys from every walk of life there is. This man at R332/328 needs to get out of the house if he can and open his eyes. Surprisingly (to you) we can be found in of all places: the grocery store shopping for food, at the local hospitals saving people's lives everyday, we build houses for folks, we teach your kids how to read and write, we live on your street probably,we are dads, we are single, we are married to each other.

I would suggest living your life and taking a good look around you R332/328 because we are already in your life like it or not.

R332, well ... .damn. If I'd scrolled down a couple inches I'd have saved myself an severe "Oh dear" ing. I completely missed that it was a work of fiction.

R322 I mean, dammit. I need to quit while I'm behind.

I also know someone who knew Caesar Romero quite well and says he was a wonderful person.

R335, Cesar Romero would've had a great love had Ty Power not been busy chasing tail.

R339 Next to Burr she says he (Romero) was the loveliest of all of all the old male celebs she met. Myrna Loy she says was far and away the nicest female celeb. R340 He would have had bigger problems from what I've heard (not from said friend just general gossip) had he hung onto Power, LOL.

Why are some of you saying that Scott was "the obvious choice" for Ashley Wilkes in GWTW? He was MUCH too butch! Wilkes was supposed to be bookish and unworldly, a man who is unsuited for real work and unable to find a place in the post-war world, and at the end of the film he's supposed to be defeated and brokenhearted. Yes, Scott was a fair-haired Suthun Gennleman, but he wasn't much of an actor and wouldn't have been able to portray many of Wilkse's personality traits.

Personally I would have tried to cast Tyrone Power, he could have played the sweetness, sensitivity, romanticism, and unworldliness of the character, while still being believable as an army officer and the heartthrob of the county.

R342 Ty Power would have SUCKED. With the exception of the amazing Witness for the Prosecution with that disgusting, dirty but brilliant old queen Laughton, he was a bit of a lox as an actor. But he was quite good in that. (God Laughton must have salivating after TP in every scene...LOL.)

Not a fan of Howard's but can't imagine anyone else in that role...likewise the rest of the casting. One of the most well cast movies in the history of film.

R337, as R322 said, Darwin Porter has written several fictional "biographies" of Hollywood icons that are teeming with salacious details and made-up conversations that have fooled a lot of people. On top of that, irresponsible bloggers publish excerpts as the gospel truth, further confusing people so you're not alone. All this works to Porter's advantage to keep his phony potboilers simmering.

Ty Power was fine in RAZOR'S EDGE and was ambitious and unhappy with the shallow roles the studio threw him in. I bet he would have pulled off Ashley Wilkes.

Tyrone Power was also good in NIGHTMARE ALLEY, reportedly his favorite role.

Ashley Wilkes was a blonde. Tyrone Power would have looked awful as a blonde.

Ty and Cesar lounging...

R102, from Wikipedia about Randolph Scott's early life in a wealthy family:

Scott was born in Orange County, Virginia, but reared in Charlotte, North Carolina, the second of six children born to parents of Scottish-American descent. His father was George Grant Scott, born in Franklin, Virginia, an administrative engineer in a textile firm. His mother was Lucille Crane Scott, born in Luray, Virginia, a member of a wealthy North Carolina family.[5] The Scott children in order of birth were: Margaret, Randolph, Katherine, Virginia, Joseph and Barbara, most born in North Carolina.[6]

Because of his family's financial status, young Randolph was able to attend private schools such as Woodberry Forest School. From an early age, Scott developed and displayed an athletic trait, excelling in American football, baseball, horse racing, and swimming.[5]

Wow a 3-way with those two, Tyrone and Cesar. Could you imagine how hot and gorgeous!

One of my favourite movie star photos of all time:

Even by today's standards, Cary Grant was exceptionally beautiful as a young man. If he were around today, he would still be turning heads everywhere.

And Randolph Scott was gorgeous too. Can you even imagine how fucking hot the two of them having sex would've looked? Bring me my smelling salts!

Not trying to hijack the thread but I had to mention that Cesar Romero was on an episode of "Golden Girls" (cute story at the link). He was able to successfully dodge questions about his 'confirmed bachelorhood' with comments like this...

[quote]“How could I [get married], when I had so many responsibilities? Could I tell a girl, 'Let's get married, and you can come live with my father, my mother, two sisters, a niece and a nephew'? I have no regrets, no regrets.”

I'm guessing Randolph was the bottom.

Cary Grant and Tyrone Power. Now that would've been a great combo.

Top bottom. You realise there are versatile couples in the world.

Cary Grant, Phyllis Brooks, Annabelle, and Tyrone Power at the Gunga Din premiere, 1938.

Scott was every inch as handsome as Grant, but only Cary had that spark that makes a real movie star. Scott probably would have been happy for them both to leave the movies behind and be together full time. But Grant had that burning desire for fame before love. He was better at playing make believe and more devoted to it than Scott was.. Look how much better Cary Grant looks in R357's photo than Tyrone Power does. Power's star power rided on the fact that he was pretty to look at. Then he got older and his power wore off. That didn't happen to Grant who had a lot more going on in his silver fox years than Power ever did.

Rided? Of course I meant to say rode.

Silly comparison R358. Power had no "silver fox years" he died at 44.

Well, he looked a lot older, R360, which explains my confusion.

[quote]Tyrone Power was stricken by a massive heart attack while filming a dueling scene with his frequent co-star and friend, George Sanders, during the making of "Solomon and Sheba." He died on route to the hospital on Saturday, November 15, 1958. He was only 44.

I completely agree with r358.

Cary Grant was really the only one of those 1930s leading men who aged gracefully and genuinely kept his hot and stylish looks well into the early1960s: Gable, Cooper, Flynn, Power, Wayne, Bogart, Taylor, even Holden who was 10 years younger than that group, all looked tired and desiccated next to their much younger leading ladies because of all of the high living, drinking and smoking.

The only exception was Gregory Peck, who also aged beautifully, though he started his career in the 1940s.

"bisexual" = likes both men and boys.

Cary, ass up...

I love his skin color, very mediterranean type.

As he aged he looked very Meditarrenean indeed.

Yes [R367].

Isn't there a story about a director who wanted to get some emotion from the jaded George Sanders and taunted him for killing Tyrone Power? The implication was that Tyrone and George Sanders were more than friends and that Tyrone was one of the few, if not the only, person that George sanders really cared about.

aging gracefully

Christ, I wish I looked that good NOW, and I'm decades younger than he is in that pic at r370

She had at least one facelift - careful inspectia of side photos reveals tiny scars around the ear.

A real class: CG's speech at Honorary Oscar 1970.

Why did Sinatra always have to be that way?

r374, I agree abut Sinatra. He was often so cringe-worthy he's hard to watch. A great singer but a lousy talker.

He couldn't just give Grant his Oscar and step aside, he had to try to make a goofy bit out of it.

Gardner probably left him because she couldn't stand his neediness.

[quote]Gardner probably left him because she couldn't stand his neediness.

Ava gave as good as she got...

Frank Sinatra's sex appeal has not transcended time. But then, I would say the same about Elvis Presley.

Cary Grant OTOH.....

Cary is sexiest in his comedies when he displays vulnerability. His love scenes are laughable, like in "Notorious" when Bergman is emoting her guts out and Grant looks like an alien who was given instructions on how to kiss an earthling.

Tony Curtis and Cary Grant look like they up to no good here....

R379, you write like an alien who has never experienced a human emotion. Grant and Bergman in Notorious are routinely cited as one of the sexiest couplings in cinema history. Sorry that so many things obviously go over your head.

[quote]Grant and Bergman in Notorious are routinely cited as one of the sexiest couplings in cinema history.

Well some of us aren't fooled, R381, especially those of us who are skilled at reading body language. Heroic efforts to convince the public that Grant was heterosexual have convinced many, and are still being made by his wife and daughter. It seems even Grant thought he could convince himself. Maybe you're a believer, but some of aren't. Sorry if that's "alien" to you. When I see those scenes, I just want to giggle. We can agree to disagree.

One of the points made in a film about Grant that I saw recently was that, especially in his later films, the running joke is that these beautiful women are throwing themselves at him but he's distinctly uninterested. Maybe it was a kind of in-joke, but it plays very well on the sense one gets that Cary Grant just wasn't all that interested in women.

Exactly, R383. It's so obvious that the women are doing all the work to make it look amorous. In Notorious, Bergman does double duty, because Grant's incapable of coming across with any kind of passion. In fact, he looks relieved to be heading out the door, like a school kid who's been let out on recess. Hilarious.

Yeah, Sinatra is cringe-worthy in that clip, but Cary Grant is great - I love how he specifically mentioned and thanked a number of writers in his speech. Who does that -no one.

I would've let Cary and Randy DP my ass, and I never let two guys do that at the same time.

I just watched that clip and couldn't believe how fucking obnoxious Sinatra was. He's like the Donald Trump of the Oscars.

Cary, what a class act.

Gay is still unacceptable in "liberal" Hollywood gayling @ R15. At least Xenu told me so. Hence all these weird PDA photoshoots and bizarre marriages... Of course I am not talking about myself. I'd sue you if you'd think otherwise.

r386 So you only let a man who is double-dicked DP you? Jus' wundrin' how often you get it?

"He needed willowy or boyish girls like Katharine Hepburn to make him look what they now call macho. If I’d co-starred with Grant or if Crawford had, we’d have eaten him for breakfast.”

-- Bette Davis

Oh, Bette! Next to you, Rin Tin Tin looks like Lana Turner.

R382 and R384, next time try following the PLOT of Notorious.

His reluctance is in line with his character's motivation.

I'm with R382 here. Always found the "love" scenes in Notorious contrived and unsexy. And I'm a Bergman fan. The key/cellar scene, however...

Grant was at his best (and sexiest) in the goofy 1930s movies (Awful Truth, Bringing Up Baby).

And of course in Some Like It Hot.

Sad that these days the honorary Oscar winners aren't even part of the main ceremony and we don't get great moments and speeches like Cary Grant's.

Surprised to see that it took that audience as long as it did to rise for a standing ovation. When Spanky McFarland came on to present an honorary to Hal Roach the audience popped up like they'd been yanked by puppet strings! (Which they should have! One of my fave Oscar moments.)

No, R393, that's where he's supposedly falling in love with her and conflicted, but he never conveys that complicated mix of emotions. Later, when he rescues her and says he was "a fatheaded guy full of pain" you don't believe it. He never "brought it." Take a similar plot, like "Out of the Past" when Mitchum is pursuing Jane Greer's character and he falls in love with her despite the fact that she supposedly shot a guy and stole his money. He displays all the passion and then some.

I have a different interpretation than you, R397. To me, their clinches are full of passion in Notorious. Look again at the final scene when he sneaks into her bedroom and steals her out of the mansion.

If Cary Grant wasn't at his best in "Notorious", IMHO that's because he was trying to act tough, not because he was trying to act straight. He didn't really know how to make a tough, emotionally closed-off character sympathetic; in spite of my ongoing crush on him I wondered what the Ingrid Bergman character saw in him. In that movie, at least, Nazi Claude Raines brought more charm than he did.

And bullshit on saying he had no chemistry with women, he built his career on chemistry with women! When he played opposite a good match like Irene Dunne, Rosalind Russell, or the elder Hepburn, the chemistry was fantastic. His films are why I continue to defend the genre of Romantic Comedy, in spite of the fact that Hollywood has forgotten how to make good ones. I will admit that it's true that he was at his best in comedies, and never had quite the same spark with women in non-romantic comedies, but then comedy was his strength. He was usually good in dramatic roles such as "Notorious", but GREAT in comedy.

He was charming and even a bit complex in Suspicion but of course they gave the Oscar to the rather pallid Joan Fontaine.

How many Best Leading Man Oscars have been awarded for comedies? Certainly only a handful. Gable winning for It Happened One Night was that rare early exception.

Grant, in his best comedic roles like His Girl Friday, The Awful Truth and Bringing Up Baby were all far better performances than Gable's win yet he wasn't even nominated. I know, he wasn't part of a studio......but, still.....

Who else has won?

[quote] especially in his later films, the running joke is that these beautiful women are throwing themselves at him but he's distinctly uninterested.

This was done deliberately, suggested, in fact by Grant. In Charade, for example, one of his last movies, he was embarrassed by the age difference between himself and Audrey Hepburn. The suggestion was made to have Audrey be the aggressor so that he did not look like a "dirty, old man".

There were only 2 films after that: "Father Goose" which was hardly a standard type of movie for him where Leslie Caron is not exactly a kid and "Walk Don't Run" where he plays the matchmaker, rather than the romantic lead.

On Grant's sexual awkwardness with women...

R 401, you wrote Cary Grant wasn’t part of a studio and mentioned some of his best comedic roles during the 1930s and early 1940s. Please note, the majority of Golden Age stars, during the 1930s and 1940s, were under contract to some studio or entity. This includes Cary Grant who was part of the so-called studio system having started out under contract with Paramount Pictures. Later he signed with Columbia Pictures although eventually he became independent as did many other stars.

Cary Grant was a great star and I suppose it’s inexplicable to us now he never won a competitive Oscar. The same may be said for others just as worthy, i.e., Barbara Stanwyck, director Howard Hawks, etc…

R401, don't put a space between the r and the post number you are referencing.

Also, examples are preceded by e.g., not i.e.

Re: Sinatra's presentation. It's amusing that Cary just politely humours Frank's tedious ratpack banter, which leads to the latter's pointless exit line. Frank tries so hard, but is outclassed from the get-go.

Hell, I meant that comment for r404.

The happy couple.

Cary has quite a bulge happening in that photo.

Interesting detail Cary wearing little white sockettes with his bathing trunks. Did he have a cleanliness fetish?

Not cleanliness , money. Grant was a miser. His house in BH was almost condemned because the grounds were so overgrow. The interior was filthy. He never entertained at home as it would have cost him money. He unscrewed light bulbs and actually separated 2 ply toilet paper into separate rolls. He never picked up a tab and was one of the first celebrities to endorse a fragrance (Faberge) so the company would pick up his expenses. Grant was the only star who would not sign autographs unless you gave him 25 cents.! Obviously his early poverty scarred him. He never forgot it.

Someone like Raymond Burr who made up a dead wife and kid is unlikely to have had "women on the side".

Grant created a persona and was able to inhabit it, yet he also was quite critical about his films.

It's unlikely Gary Cooper was gay. He was good in roles like "HIgh Noon" that called for something understated and where he had a good director.

I'd like to think Curtis was bi as I find him damn cute. The idea of him and Grant hooking up is hot.

However he comes across very obnoxious and arrogant in his autobio.

Also he claims that his comment about kissing Monroe was misconstrued because he was being sarcastic.

Susan Strasberg in her Monroe book claims that Monroe was so difficult and insecure during the SLIH shoot that he was so angry with her he meant it seriously.

[quote]Someone like Raymond Burr who made up a dead wife and kid is unlikely to have had "women on the side".

R412, it's also possible that Burr was terrified of being tied down by marriage and wanted an alibi, so he could freely fuck both men and women. R162's friend may be able to enlighten us on that point.

"It's unlikely Gary Cooper was gay. "

Cooper definitely liked women, he got married and fucked other actresses while married, including a very serious affair with Patricia Neal. But while he was young and beautiful, he spent a while bouncing back and forth between Clara Bow and some society gay, which leads some of us to think he was bisexual. I don't know *how* bi, I haven't heard about any affairs with men in later life.

Oh, and one biography said he was impotent when he got older, due to the awful blood pressure medicines of the time. Pity, he was supposed to be hung.

Cooper seems to have aged quickly and badly.

In Love in the Afternoon he looks old enough to be Chevalier's father.

Gary Cooper discreetly had a facelift in 1958, but, somehow, it was widely reported in the papers, and the reporters were not kind. Many commented that the procedure rendered him unrecognizaable.

Is the slide warning referring to his face?

He was one of many emotionally guarded actors. He never "lost" himself in the role , an intellectual actor like Hepburn and Fonda. He was probably that way (with most people) even when not in front of the cameras.

Grant's chemistry with Eva Marie Saint in North by Northwest is sizzling. Their scenes on the train are some of the hottest in film history. (and yes, I still think he was bi leaning toward gay)

R415 If Gary Cooper was impotent, it was probably due to prostate surgery he underwent at 58-years of age when diagnosed with prostate cancer. He died in 1961, very shortly after his 60th birthday from complications associated with metastatic prostate cancer. As late as the mid-1950s, he was still having affairs, most notably with Anita Ekberg.

dddddddddddd

[quote]Obviously his early poverty scarred him. He never forgot it.

It's interesting that Hitchcock filmed the big seduction scene with Grace Kelly so that Grant was clearly more interested in the jewels than Grace Kelly. Hitchcock knew his actor.

R411, I read that Because of poverty and not nice surroundings growing up that Cary Grant was fastidiously neat to the point of being annoying to others.

[quote]Cary Grant was fastidiously neat to the point of being annoying to others.

R424, you're confusing Cary Grant with germophobe, Howard Hughes. Cary's home was apparently not clean because he was too cheap to hire a maid. He was known to have separated the 2-ply toilet paper into 1-ply. He charged 15 cents for autographs. Yes, Grant was terrified of poverty due to the circumstances which he was born.

"in which he was born" -- sorry.

[quote]Grant's chemistry with Eva Marie Saint in North by Northwest is sizzling. Their scenes on the train are some of the hottest in film history.

"Some of the hottest in film history?" Seriously, R420, have you ever seen two people in a passionate clinch? That love scene is one of the more awkward in film history. Cary displays discomfort more than lust, and the discontinuity of the two different camera angles is very distracting. In fact, it appears laughably wooden, which is classic Hitchcock. He couldn't handle real passion and I think his actors subconsciously knew it.

R423 True, AH was monster as a director, but he knew what he was doing.

Ok, also put me on the side of that North by Northwest seduction as one of the least sexy scenes ever shot on screen.

Grant was similar to Warren Beatty in love scenes....not very giving.

Speaking of Henry Fonda.....now, he would have been a perfect Ashley Wilkes. We often associate young Fonda with the itinerant Okie of The Grapes of Wrath, but he was actually highly educated and quite beautiful in the 1930s.

Of course, he eventually went on to play that Ashley-like role in Jezebel opposite Bette Davis' Scarlett-like role at Warners while they were in pre-production for GWTW, but I wonder if Selznick considered him?

A friend of mine who worked in Hollywood - small parts in big movies and bigger parts in Republic films from the mid-40s, then TV in the 50s - with time as Jose Quintero's boyfriend in New York - would just say, "Why talk about the obvious? Living in the open with a wink worked for a lot of them." He talked about James Stewart's roommates, too. The thought was that any man could and would get it up with anyone else, and that included women or men, and once in a while if you met someone special, well, you kept closer. For a while, anyway. The career came first, always.

R430 Please Warren was well known for giving every woman in Hollywood!

Not sexy? Okay, if you all say so.

"Speaking of Henry Fonda.....now, he would have been a perfect Ashley Wilkes"

I disagree, I always saw something chilly and closed-off in Fonda; something that worked in some roles but that would have been awful in the Wilkes role.

I guess I'm the only one left alive who thinks Howard is great in GWTW.

Yeah he could have been a few years younger but it is similar to his wonderful performance in Petrified Forest.

A beautiful doomed man lost in an alien world over which he has no control.

Scarlett's obsession with him is totally believable. It's not like you go wtf does she ever see in him.

Warren giving in real life, yes....but not on screen.

What are the great Warren Beatty film love scenes, r433?

[quote]Living in the open with a wink worked for a lot of them." He talked about James Stewart's roommates, too.

OK, that would be a shocker. Stewart seems like the straightest guy in Hollywood, especially since he turned into such a racist rightwing Republican in later years.

was never crazy about Fonda but he had that all American/middle America look about him that appealed to the mass audiences I suppose. Same with James Stewart although Stewart to me seemed very New England.

Stewart was from Western Pennsylvania, but I think the accent was something he picked up at Princeton.

Homosexual Warren Beatty once cruised us heavy in an Italian restaurant in Bel Air about 20 years ago.

R441 details please. I want to know how Warren Beatty actually cruises.

Gary Cooper was a beauty too. Too bad he didn't age well.

With looks like Cooper's, he had nowhere to go but down.

Same with Flynn...

Oh, MPC, spare us.

Like Warren would be interested in someone who looked like Mrs Geriatric Camp Bull -- of that Warren would have gotten out of there alive if he had not followed through.

Back to the subject of this thread...

I wonder what's going on in this Tijuana bible?

CG seemed very asexual to me. I can't imagine him getting all naked and messy in the bedroom, no matter what Betsy Drake said about them fucking all the time. That kind of marriage doesn't break up. I don't believe her, I think she was trying to polish his image. But then he never really had the reputation as a great lover during his career, it was mostly about his clothes and looks.

CG and RS more than likely sat up at night reading scripts before pecking each other on the lips and going to their own bedrooms until morning. No anguished, lust filled cries of "Oh god, fuck me harder" and "Yeah, you like sucking that cock, doncha?" were heard throughout their neighborhood.

Imagining "Oh, God, fuck me harder" or "Yeah, you like sucking that cock, doncha?" in Cary Grant's voice /accent makes me laugh.

By the way, didn't John Waters dub Jeff Stryker the "Cary Grant of gay porn"?

IMHO CG was one of the most charismatic actors who has ever lived. He lit up the screen, and he was unafraid to be ridiculous despite his matinee-idol looks.

[quote]I think he was genuinely bisexual.

Me, too. There's been speculation about CG/RS since they were young and alive. A lot of people thought, at the time (and some still do), that CG liked the mystery and speculation and thought it was hilarious, even played it up to fuck with people. People who believe that often write off the relationship as a friendship that CG used as fodder for public misdirection. But to me, they're not mutually exclusive. He liked to fuck with people - and he was in love with Randolph Scott. I agree, the way they looked at each other and their live-in relationship, sometimes the simplest explanation is fine.

Any woman married to a major screen sex symbol is going to brag to the press and to friends about their glorious sex life. Can you not see how dreary they'd come if they didn't?

[quote]He liked to fuck with people - and he was in love with Randolph Scott.

But he was in love with his career, more. He acted selfishly with lovers Orry Kelly and Randolph Scott. He said in this revealing 1977 NYT interview that all his wives left HIM, which I believe. Years later, it became evident that the only person he loved with selflessness and caring was his daughter.

It sounds like Grant was a Tom Cruise-type careerist.

[quote]It sounds like Grant was a Tom Cruise-type careerist.

And equally partial to cock.

About Tyrone Power's acting, I worked with this lady who saw Tyrone Power on stage. She said she was expecting him to be so- so , but when she saw him act, she was totally stunned. She said Tyrone was incredible actor when he was able to use his acting abilities to the fullest degree when he wasn't in control by the studio system.

Cary Grant's daughter claims her father loved women to think he was gay because they told him they could make him straight if he had sex with them. Cary's daughter said he played along with this set up because he was able to have sex with a lot of women. Here is the problem I have have, Cary Grant was a gorgeous man and if he was straight, he didn't have to go through that BS.

R457 Exactly. Cary Grant would have had women throwing themselves at him, left, right and centre. And honestly, even if he were ugly as sin, he probably would still get loads of sex, just because he was a movie star.

[quote]Cary Grant was a gorgeous man and if he was straight, he didn't have to go through that BS.

Exactly, R457. I think like many people believed back then (and up until recently), Cary thought being gay was a choice and that he could choose heterosexuality. He spent most of his life trying to be this debonair ladies' man, Cary Grant, but he was really Archie Leach, gay man. He couldn't make his wives happy and came to rely on drugs to deal with his depression. This image of him holding hands with Randolph Scott in the dark is so poignant.

[quote]Cary and Randolph remained extremely close their entire lives. The maître d' at the Beverly Hillcrest Hotel saw both actors in the 1970s, sitting in the back of the restaurant, long after the place had emptied. Cary Grant and Randolph Scott were sitting alone, quietly holding hands.

Sorry if I posted this link, previously...

Well, since you asked r442 we shall tell you! It was in the mid or late 1990s we were having lunch at a very nice Italian restaurant in Bel Air near Mulhholland Drive after having just collected an enormous sum of money from our PO box in the Valley. It must have been a Saturday around noon or so. We were seated against the wall reading a newspaper and eating when we sensed hungry homosexual eyes upon us from the table to the left. We could see without looking that it was an un-interesting older homosexual sitting there with a fish. Naturally we ignored him and did not look further but when we saw the queen get up, to go to the T room presumably, we got a good look. It was Warren Beatty, who we believe lived nearby.

Cooper...auditioning for something.

R461, publicity photo, Gary Cooper as The Llano Kid in "The Texan" (1930).

My impression of sexual culture in America is that it was at it's absolutely most liberal time those few years at the end of the 1920s and in the early years of the Depression. And it's clearly seen in films just before the Code was established. That still of Gary Cooper couldn't be more decadent! Boy, did he change his image a few years later.

R463, I agree with you. If anyone here has never seen precode movies on TCM or just a DVD rental, please do. It is amazing some of the things they say and talk about here and there about sex drugs etc. back then. When you watch films from the late 30s on they would never say remotely anything like what they said in film before the precode.When the precode era was in full force they resorted on heavy innuendo.

BTW, I came across a blog once on Tyrone Power. In the comment section this guy said he was gay and he was fascinated with anything Tyrone Power. He said he wasn't necessarily a big fan but he liked to observe anything Tyrone Power. The guy said whenever he saw Tyrone and Cesar Romero together in pictures and old footage, he could not explain it but the way they looked at each other and the way they acted around each other he got a very strong gay vibe.

Didn't Rock Hudson fuck both of them with his 'colossal' COCK?

For R464, I think I first saw this posted on the "More Amazing Candid Photos of Movie Legends Pt III" thread.

Ty Power and Cesar Romero were hot together and they ping like crazy....

Did Rock fuck Ty and Cesar or Cary and Randy? Or all of them?

Yes,Rock,Ty,Cesar,Cary and Randy got together in one big fuck and suck orgy which was filmed. I had a bootleg copy on VHS but I lost it during a move.

[quote]Yes,Rock,Ty,Cesar,Cary and Randy got together in one big fuck and suck orgy which was filmed.

I was there, too.

Rock Hudson, Robert Wagner, and Natalie Wood went to dinner with Ty Power and his wife at Romanoffs before Tyrone Power left for Spain to film his last movie and ultimately died. I wondered if Ty power ever had an affair with Rock Hudson and RJ Wagner.

I kind of like to think Old Hollywood was just one big fuck and suck fest. All these attractive people giving in to their most outrageous desires and nobody giving a damn because the moguls had the police and journalists in their pocket.

It also helped big time that you just didn't talk about such things. Except for Fatty Arbuckle and Mary Astor.

Writing from Southern Europe, it's clear that there was much more tan smoke between RS and CG. Just look at their eyes, and do watch My Favorite Wife in you can, it's full of second meanings, and I doubt it's just for laughs.

On the other hand, maybe because I'm from Southern Europe, but I've always found Cary Grant interesting, and certainly one I would have bedded if ever given the chance... but I don't find him all that handsome. Just a Kevin Spacey. I mean look-wise.

Randolph Scott was tons more handsome than Cary, I think. And oddly, he looks more manly to me. Cary looks more like a queer bottom to me, and of the not-all-that-kind ones. Just watch his acceptance speech of the Oscar. Meh.

And after reading what allegedly happened between the two, I guess Randolph was so desperately in love he didn't care about being second-best, he was loyal to the very end. While Cary chose money over love, even though he would have had a nice life anyway (they could have moved to Europe in the 1950s, had they wanted to, and still make money).

Sad story.

How would their relationship have been, had the American society become less conservative? We'll never know.

Sorry, bad tipo and unfinished post. I didn't quite get to say exactly what I meant.

I meant the following,

"It's clear to me that there was much more than just smoke between RS and CG. Just look at their eyes in the pictures and in the film, and do watch My Favorite Wife if you can, it's full of second meanings, and I doubt it's just for the laughs. I guess it was a pun and a big fvck-off to the HUAC. But it seems that later in life Cary chose money over Randolph.

On the other hand, and maybe because I'm from Southern Europe, but I've always found Cary Grant interesting, and certainly one I would have bedded if ever given the chance, but... I don't find him all that handsome, phisically. Just another Kevin Spacey.

Randolph Scott was tons more handsome than Cary, I think. And oddly, he looks more manly to me. Cary looks like a queer bottom to me, and of the not-all-that-kind ones. Just watch his acceptance speech of the Oscar. Meh.

And after reading what allegedly happened between the two, I guess Randolph was so desperately in love he didn't care about being second-best, he was loyal to Cary to the very end. While Cary chose money over love, even though they could have had a nice life anyway (they could have moved to Europe in the 1950s had they wanted to, and still have made enough money to live a good live).

Sad story.

How would their relationship have been, had the American/Hollywood society become less conservative? We'll never know.

Would they be out by now? Probably, and like Randolph Scott said in My Favorite Wife: "I got nothing to hide... so... make up your mind, old man. Ha, ha, ha!! Got you theeere!". That line sums it all up, for me.

I agree that Randy is much better looking Cary but in terms of screen charisma next to Grant he has as much as a post.

Though in bed no contest Randolph is the one for me.

Even if they were young today with their potential for screen or tv I bet they would be in the closet and for public consumption have a bromance.

We still don't have major stars especially males who are openly gay. I still think it's a career killer especially when you are starting out. It gives PR nothing to work with.

r29, before I read all 474 entries, Magnani won her Oscar for an American film in English, like Simone Signoret in 1959 - Loren's win in 1961 was the first Oscar win in the Italian language.

Going by the letters and cards from Cary to Loren which she included in her recent biography, he must have been very keen to marry her back then - but there was no way a Roman Catholic Italian woman would become the third Mrs Cary Grant and for how long? They are great together in HOUSEBOAT though in 1958. Carlo Ponti though 20 years older than her had discovered her and could provide the security she craved after her poor childhood in Naples during the war.

Erroll Flynn and David Niven lived together too in the 1930s, and Niven goes into it all in his entertaining memoirs, but no gay rumours about them as both were notorious pussyhounds and had lots of wild parties there, though it seems Flynn would try anything (like Tyrone Power).

Errol Flynn was kind of like the Charlie Sheen of his day. A mess with drugs and alcohol and would do anything with anyone if he was drunk/high enough.

To R474. I think it's not as bad as it seems. It's definitely worse in sports (soccer, basket), where literally no one is out. As for big movie stars who are out, let me think... Ian McKellen (Gandalf, Magneto) is definitely one. But ok, he's old. So that's one, at least.

Btw, are there any pictures of Cary and Randolph together post-1950s?

And is there any chance to ever get to see the unused images from Bachelor Hall published?

But I don't think McKellen ever tried to develop the kind of image Grant or Scott would and wasn't he well established and getting on when he came out?

Well, you're right. What's true is that the Bachelor Hall photos, even if that was hiding in plain sight or not, and even if the 1920s and the 1930s were less socially conservative tan the 1940s and 1950s, they would have been a bit of a shock.

Funnily, another actor that sends my gaydar up the sky is Glenn Ford, although I believe he wasn't really gay, but I have a strong feeling he was bi.

Ford does to me as well and as I consider him extremely cute I would like to think so.

But alas from everything I've read he was one of Hollywood's major pussyhounds without a drop of the Dorothy.

In a biography on Alec Guinness it seems he became enamored of Ford which made Glenn very uncomfortable and he then tried to avoid Alec.

Oh, but if you do read enough about Glenn Ford, you get hints of likely stuff. And if you hear him speak outside the movies... hmmm. My radar usually doesn't fail. And it doesn't fail because there are guys I think they're gay but whom I don't fancy... but I rarely ever fancy a hetero. But as I say, in his case I think he swung both sides.

I don't think that was Cary's or Randolph's case anyway. To me they were almost out, but they were forced to come back in, and then Cary went probably mentally troubled about it (which probably explains the constant "degayal", although he also probably rated his career higher than his sentimental life). Had they lived longer, or been younger, they'd be out by now. If what our deep throat tells us is true, and knowing that Scott survived Grant for merely three months... I would have found it likely.

What is not very clear to me is wether Cary and Randolph kept seeing each other from the moment they stopped living together till they died or they also put a halt to that somewhere around the 1970s. But if we're to believe what has been said here about Randolph beeing completely distraught by Cary's death, and also the fact that he kind of not denied everything boldly... and also Betty White being her Golden Girls self when "oops!! I've just outed them by mistake!! I was talking about Rock, not Cary!"... XD

There are surely too many photos of them together back then for them to have been taken for just a movie layout. Those pictures were taken in lots of places and over different times. A photoshoot would have been done quickly as they had to move on to the next movie.

[quote] Cary went probably mentally troubled about it (which probably explains the constant "degayal"

Well said, R483. What seems pretty clear is that Grant was deeply ambivalent and self-loathing about his homosexuality and his priorities were misplaced. Scott deserved better.

R479, I think I've seen pics of them together later in life but I'm too tired to find them.

R485, I think Scott deserved better... but maybe that's just the theory, and maybe that's all they could afford. We have no hint of a possible secret continued love/sex relationship to the end. If they were discreet enough, I think they could have been able to carry on with it in the back of the press and families, and maybe no one would have noticed, Is this likely? After all, they retired in the 1960s... by 1970 many wouldn't recognize them in the street, if properly (badly) dressed.

This was probably posted earlier, but it's the only snippet of gossip I've run across about Grant and Scott in later years...

[quote]Cary and Randolph remained extremely close their entire lives. The maître d' at the Beverly Hillcrest Hotel saw both actors in the 1970s, sitting in the back of the restaurant, long after the place had emptied. Cary Grant and Randolph Scott were sitting alone, quietly holding hands.

Yes, R488, this has been posted earlier. What haven't been posted are pictures of both after the 1940s, but then again, I don't know if they exist.

On the other hand, just go to youtube and search "Cary Grant & Randolph Scott..." The dialogue is not only masterful, but also quite telling.

First, Cary looks at the bottom of the telephone boy, LOL. Then he follows the boy down to the pool, while calling Mr.Burkett (Randolph). When Randolph hears him, he says "high here, son!", while holding a half-eaten carrot (LOL). Then Randolph goes to the springboard and gets undressed before acrobatically plunging, while Cary stares in awe at him, almost drooling. (old woman to Cary Grant) "Young man, is that Johnny Weissmuller?"... to be read as, "Young man, is that (Irene Dunne) your new wife's (Randolph's) mother?". LOLOLOL. Later on, Cary and Irene Dunne toast to "no suspicions", while Cary is watching Randolph in the springboard out of the corner of his eye, then Irene says "if married people can't be honest with each other, who can? -after all...", while Cary now looks directly at Randolph, who is on the springboard about to jump... then Cary says "exactly", with a bitter voice and looking at Randolph.

Masterful, and in your face.

Do yourselves a favour, and watch the rest.

Thanks for the find, R489. Nothing subtle here. Hot!

R2 STFU. It’s a good photo.

Randolph Scott was not good looking enough for Cary to risk his career over, so, "No" to your question.