Let's talk about Anne Boleyn

She likes you too, OP.

I went to her house. It was very nice.

I thought Genevieve Bujold was incredible as the queen. She reminded me of Vivien Leigh in Gone with the Wind. Her spirit and humor were just... perfect. I am still shocked she did not win her rightful Oscar. Surely one of the great film performances?

She had six fingers.

Her little pancake breasts and boyishly slender hips.

[quote]She is my favorite of Henry's wives.

She's really the only who stands out, isn't she?

The only other one I know about his his first wife who was the wife of his brother, I believe.

I agree Bujold was fantastic and so memorable!

She was a whore, darlin'.

She gave good head.

Six fingers? What happened to the other four?

Is she in my program? I am not sure who she is? Can you post a picture of her? Maybe I met her in the bookstore. Is she nice. Can you post a picture so I can see if she is nice and do you think she will like me?

She was a girl you could lose your head over.

SHe was an insatiable bottom.

That whore and witch Anne Boleyn!

The INTRIGUE!

I saw that movie when I was 7. I was mad that my mom took me out of the theatre just before the beheading.

She tipped her executioner. He was so moved by her composure, the gesture, and her station, that he botched the execution and required several blows to sever her head.*

*and I can't recall where I learned this.

Tell me, Datalounge historians, was Katherine Howard the floozy that history assumes her to be?

Much has been written about Anne B. being tried on fabricated charges, but nobody ever defends Katherine Howard.

Mary, Queen of Scots was the one with the notoriously botched execution, r16. Anne's executioner was moved and maybe even a bit smitten, but he was a 16th-century Ted Williams with that sword.

My favorite wife was Anne of Cleves. Forced to marry a fat, diseased old man by her family, she left the marriage a wealthy woman, who remained on excellent terms with the entire royal family.

She seemed to live a happy and independent life for the rest of her days, and never had to fuck the fat old man. She did the best of all of them!

[quote]Much has been written about Anne B. being tried on fabricated charges, but nobody ever defends Katherine Howard.

That's because her charges weren't fabricated--she wrote a frickin' LOVE LETTER, for god's sake. She might not have been a flooy, but she was certainly stupid.

This thread needs some Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman.

Catherine Parr was the smartest. She outlived Henry.

She had a good head on her shoulders.

From my reading I've picked up that Anne & her sister Mary were at the French court as young girls and were very loose. By the time they got back to England their reputation had preceeded them.

Henry bedded Mary Boleyn first and had a son with her. When he lost interest in her, he hit on Anne who thought she was being smarter than her sister by insisting on marriage. It took years for the King and the Catholic Church to get their divorce.

It was ugly and stressful and he came to hate Ann. She was executed on trumped up charges. She didn't commit incest with her brother, and she didn't have an affair with some musician or anyone else while married to the King.

It is claimed that Jane Seymour, who bore his only legitimate son, was the love of Henry's life. The boy was crowned Edward VI when he was 10. He was sickly and he was 16 when he died.

Ann's reputation was smeared because she was a strong, spirited woman, who was blamed for Henry's breach with the Catholic Church. That was a big deal. But Henry and the Pope had a rocky relationship, and he was having problems with France and Spain during that time.

All this mess about getting a divorce so he could marry Ann came up during the Reformation and there were all kinds of fanatics and zealots of every strip in the mix. For Henry to establish the Church of England, make himself head of it was a big deal.

Anne Boleyn is my least favorite because of the hype. So much of the perception of her is revisionist, because of who her daughter turned out to be. She was dead when Elizabeth was 3; whoever Elizabeth became had nothing to do with Anne's influence.

Hollywood has spent 100 years to make her into a feminist super hero, but she was nothing more than a pawn to her father, her uncle, Cromwell, then the king.

Anne was a genuine intellectual--probably the most scholarly of all English queens, with the exception only of her daughter. She wrote essays defending Protestantism and the establishment of the Church of England.

[quote]Anne Boleyn is my least favorite because of the hype. So much of the perception of her is revisionist, because of who her daughter turned out to be

Who?

With her head tucked underneath her arm, she walks the bloody Tower.

I'm not a fan.

R21 made me laugh!

R30 why did it make you laugh? It was a non sequitor.

I was surprised that Elizabeth never pardoned her mother or made any big deal about her, but she a toddler when Anne was murdered so I guess she may have never heard anything good about her.

R32 maybe she didn't know who her mother was. They probably ketp that information confidential. She could've abandoned her for all she knew, or died in childbirth.

Elizabeth I never knew her mother, and well, history is written by the victors. She would have heard about her mother from people who shared his opinions, or who wanted his approval.

And didn't most of her maternal relatives go down with Queen Anne?

R34 go down where?

R31, Jane Seymour. Think about her name.

Jane Seymour's brother Thomas wanted to marry Elizabeth when she was barely a teenager and her young brother Edward was on the throne. Since he couldn't get Elizabeth he married her stepmother Katherine Parr -- Henry's widow -- who had taken Elizabeth into her household after Henry's death. Katherine had been in love with Thomas before Henry decided she needed to be his wife.

Elizabeth was flattered by the handsome Thomas' attention and supposedly there was some heavy flirting going on between them. When Katherine Parr found out what was going on, she did indeed "keep her head" -- if news of this behavior got out Elizabeth could have been in serious trouble. Katherine sent Elizabeth away to "live in the country" and tried to keep Thomas Seymour in check. Not much luck. Katherine died in childbirth and Thomas was eventually beheaded for various "treasonable" plots - mainly wanting to take control of his nephew, the young King Edward, and still wanting to marry Elizabeth.

Some historians speculate that Elizabeth's determination never to marry was rooted in (a) the fate of her mother and her mother's cousin who both married her father and died for it and/or (b) that she had loved Thomas Seymour and never recovered from his death.

There is no doubt that Elizabeth was haunted by her mother's demise. Marriage meant death.

Divorced, beheaded, died. Divorced, beheaded, survived.

R13, it's

"... that Heretical whore and witch"

And yes, it's true, I put a contract out on her, just as my successors would put a hit out on her daughter, another heretical whore...

Actually, R37, Katherine Parr was married to an old shit, Neville I believe, and she was his third wife. He was ill for a long time. She was in love with Thomas Seymour, but when her old ass husband died, Henry noticed her and that was that.

Thomas Seymour never had an affair with Elizabeth. It was she who may have been infatuated with him. She was a frightened young teenager, and when her father died, her brother whom she was close to, became king. Edward Seymour, Thomas' brother, was regent for Edward VI. Thomas waited for Henry to die and married Katherine Parr soon after.

The problem for both Elizabeth and Mary, is that people were always trying to declare them bastards, illegitimate, and therefore ineligible to rule. Their father, at the last minute, declared them both legitimate, after declaring them illegitimate.

Ann Boleyn was a smart young woman who read books which was a very rare thing. Some believe she aligned herself with certain religious factions that ended up being unpopular.

Context is everything, considering what was going on with Luther's Reformation, with the very corrupt Catholic Church, and the political/economic effects of the Pope excommunicating Henry. Ann failed to produce a male heir, and because she had unwittingly become the focal point for all the religious ire, he dumped her.

She was wildly unpopular with the people while Katherine of Arragon remained popular even after Henry dumped her. Henry decided to make Ann the focus of all the turmoil to save his own monarchy which was in trouble on a variety of fronts.

The Catholics were really out to get her, and they smeared her. Mary, Henry's daughter defied her father and remained a staunch Catholic, and was happy to watch the destruction of Ann's reputation.

R16,She tipped the executioner because it was the custom. Her head was lopped off by the best French executioner with a sharp, heavy sword. The one mercy Henry showed her. He threw a party for his new tootsie, the afternoon Ann died. Not even a coffin was provided. Her ladies in a state of shock found a wooden chest and wrapped her head and body in white cloth and buried her below the alter of the chapel at the Tower of London, where she remains.

Elizabeth witnessed firsthand the spectacularly awful results when a reigning queen marries. Her sister Mary and cousin Mary Queen of Scots married reigning kings, a cousin and a powerful nobleman. These were the only options available to Elizabeth and each example led to horrific failures for all involved. There really was no one Elizabeth could marry so she wisely chose to be the bride of England.

Did this subject come up because of Wolf Hall?

Was it Jane who convinced Henry to legitimize Mary and Elizabeth?

Did Mary Queen of Scots get what she deserved?

Funny to think that Henry died believing he'd dutifully left England with a beautiful young son to rule his kingdom.

Or did Henry know that young Edward was sickly and not likely to live very long?

Was he still obsessed with having more sons after Jane Seymour died?

Yes, R48, he wanted more sons which is why he married Katherine Howard, who was a very young girl. Quite the strumpet actually. She really was promiscuous, unlike Ann Boleyn.

The one fact all these historical fictions gets right, like Wolf Hall, The Tudors, The other Boleyn Girl, etc. is that women were pawns. Their job was to breed. The nobility used them to rise, to forge alliances, to gain estates, and accumulate wealth. Ironic considering women had nothing on their own If a woman was an only child of a wealthy member of the nobility, and she married, all her wealth went to her husband.

I think Jane Seymour felt secure enough to support Henry legitimizing his daughters once she had a son. But it was solely his idea. By legitimizing his daughters it was easier to find them husbands. As daughters of a king and he wanted them to marry royalty for his own purposes.

Mary's husband became King of Spain. They saw each other infrequently. It was alleged he couldn't stand her smell. It's quite possible he was gay. Who knows. Yes, Elizabeth was very wise, R44.

I am called the Virgin Queen.

Unmarried,

I have no master.

Childless,

I am mother to my people.

God give me strength to bear this mighty freedom.

I am your Queen.

I am myself.

I wonder what, if anything, Elizabeth knew of her mother.

I grieve and dare not show my discontent; I love, and yet am forced to seem to hate; I do, yet dare not say I ever meant; I seem stark mute, but inwardly do prate. I am, and not; I freeze and yet am burned, Since from myself another self I turned.

My care is like my shadow in the sun -- Follows me flying, flies when I pursue it, Stands, and lies by me, doth what I have done; His too familiar care doth make me rue it. No means I find to rid him from my breast, Till by the end of things it be suppressed.

Some gentler passion slide into my mind, For I am soft and made of melting snow; Or be more cruel, Love, and so be kind. Let me or float or sink, be high or low; Or let me live with some more sweet content, Or die, and so forget what love e'er meant.

Interesting how movies in different decades interpret Elizabeth hair (and wigs).

The curly hair was obviously considered just too ugly in the 1960s.

R53, Elizabeth had a great many hairstyles through her life, both straight and curly. Her hair seems to have been naturally straight, but when it went bye-bye after a case of smallpox she seems to have favored curly wigs.

She did like to dress up, "Like a ship in full sail" someone said.

So Henry's only son was illegitimate. But you do have to wonder why all of the legitimate male heirs were still born.

I can't seem to find that Holbein portrait of Anne Boleyn but IIRC it certainly doesn't give evidence to her allure.

[quote]So Henry's only son was illegitimate. But you do have to wonder why all of the legitimate male heirs were still born.

Edward VI was not illegitimate. He was the son of Jane Seymour, Henry's third wife, who died in childbirth.

The son Anne Boleyn's sister, Mary, had has never been proven to be Henry's.

Never heard of her. Glad she's dead.

R56 is correct. And he doesn't have Google images.

Henry was quite the shithead wasn't he?

Henry VIII also had illegitimate children. He recognized Henry Fitzroy, son of his mistress Betsy Blount. There were others presumed to be his as well.

He developed from a philanderer into a psycho.

Why did he acknowledge Henry Fitzroy and not the others?

Interesting theory about Henry VIII being Kell group positive causing some of the problems with the high infant mortality amongst his wives. This may have contributed to his later decline as well.

R63, during his long marriage to Katherine of Aragon there was so much worry about an heir that some people considered wondered if Henry Fitzroy would have to step in as heir. He wasn't legitimized, but was acknowledged just in case.

At that point Henry had one daughter and no close relatives, and nobody thought daughters were worth m$uch.

She's the reason England broke away from Catholicism.

PBS just concluded the season finale of "Wolf Hall" dealing with Henry and his various wives. The just concluded season dealt with Anne, as Henry's wandering crotch settled on the "Seymour girl" The beheading of Anne as portrayed in the series was very unsettling. Her handmaidens wrapping the head, her headless body, while their gowns were drenched in blood. The French executioner pranced right/left of her (she was blindfolded) then left as she followed his voice to the right he was left and the sword went forward. The play "Wolf Hall" is also on Broadway.

[quote]She did like to dress up, "Like a ship in full sail"

In the 20th century, that could be said of Queen Mary, the present queen's grandmother. Every time she left the palace it seemed she was wearing a months worth of ju-els.

(2nd attempt to post since Dumvida and her ilk seem to have gotten the name for precious adornment banned at DL.)

Wolf Hall was sterile garbage. If you want to see something with grit, check out Keith Michell in 1970's PBS series Six Wives of Henry VIII.

Well, this is a lot of fuss about a dead wife and daughter.

What is the Brit's obsession with the Tudors (and sometimes the Windsors)? Every other year or so they rehash a movie or TV series based on either of these families.

It was rumored that Catherine of Aragon, Henry's first wife, delivered eight children five of them sons but none lived past childbirth.

It's commonly held that Ann is THE REASON Henry separated from the Catholic Church. Their marriage was definitely a catalyst, but it was deeper than that.

The climate of the times tended towards the Reformation. Luther was causing a lot of turmoil. The Catholic Church was embattled. Many protestant extremists wanted to do away with everything resembling Catholicism.

They wanted no graven images, no statuary, no "saints" etc. Just and austere, prayerful religion. They even wanted to read the Bible for it's own sake. Catholics had to have the Bible interpreted to them, they couldn't read it on their own.

Henry appeased some of these concerns, but in most respects the Anglican/Episcopal Church was very similar to Catholicism except for recognizing the Pope. Instead, the King was the head of the Church of England.

Henry rewrote the Lord's Prayer, and devised the Book of Common Prayer. Mass was an issue. Was communion a commemoration of The Last Supper, or was it actual transubstantiation, the Body and Blood of Christ? This was a major sticking point among protestants who abhorred all that mystical bullshit.

Once The Reformation gained steam, a lot of factions and splinter groups rose up. Henry's court was more divided than he realized. He saw his struggle as a political struggle with the Pope, rather than a philosophical struggle, yet, even among his wives, Jane and Catherine Parr, and his trusted advisors, there was discord.

Is Queen Elizabeth the head of the Church of England or is it the Prime Minister?

[quote]Anne Boleyn is my least favorite because of the hype. So much of the perception of her is revisionist, because of who her daughter turned out to be...

[quote]Who?

Pola Negri

The Queen is Defender of the Faith. The Archbishop of Canterbury is the head of the Church, it's a weird set up.

Henry Fitzroy, Bessie Blunt's son, pre-deceased Henry. I think he was 16 when he died.

Queen Elizabeth II is the head of state in Canada. What does that mean, exactly?

[quote]Queen Elizabeth II is the head of state in Canada. What does that mean, exactly?

It means she has to approve when they vote to be the 51st state of the USA.

HM is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

R24

The Tudors also portrayed Jane Seymour as the true love of Henry.

R69

I'd also add A Man For All Seasons.

Mary Queen of Scotts was Elizabeth's cousin?

How exactly were they related? And why was Mary known as Bloody Mary?

Mary I, "Bloody Mary," Queen Elizabeth I's half-sister is a different person from Mary, Queen of Scots.

The Scots chick was a first cousin once removed.

Mary Queen of Scots' grandmother was a sister to Elizabeth's father, Henry VIII.

Elizabeth's half-sister Mary I earned the nickname "Bloody Mary" due to her authorization of the execution of many Protestants during her relatively brief 5 year reign. She attempted to stamp them out after having brought England back into the fold of the Roman Catholic Church.

R82

When did Elizabeth's half sister rule England?

I thought Elizabeth took over once Henry passed away.

No, R83. Henry's young son Edward inherited the throne. He died at 15, then it went to oldest daughter Mary. She died after 5 years, leaving Elizabeth to take over.

After I saw the movie Elizabeth, I checked, and the Pope was a right rotten shit. He actually said whoever assassinated Elizabeth the "illegitimate heretical whore" would be rewarded in heaven. Another Pope tried the same shit with Ann Boleyn.

Ann was well read and liked intelligent conversation. She read. The kinds of books she read were books usually reserved for learned men. In England too much knowledge was not a good thing, and in a woman it was unnatural, thus she was accused of witchcraft and indecency, as well as incest and adultery.

Funny how various movies get certain things right and other things way wrong. my two favorite historical movies on this subject were Elizabeth, and The other Boleyn Girl.

I thought The Other Boleyn Girl was not well cast, in regards to Natalie Portman and her hideous accent playing Ann, but the storyline was very accurate, as was Elizabeth. I thought Cate Blanchett was wonderful.

Wolf Hall has well written dialogue, and I love Mark Rylance, but I preferred James Frain's Cromwell in The Tudors. Anne of the Thousand Days was good in certain respects but I really couldn't stand Richard Burton's Henry. Actually Damian Lewis and Eric Bana do the best Henrys, IMO. Sam Neill was a properly slimey Wolesleu in The Tudors.

She was a notorious pussyhound and a big Bush supporter.

Who's Anne Berlin?

Mary!

She was a nasty, manipulative bitch. Claire Foy nailed her in "Wolf Hall".

[quote]Catherine Parr was the smartest. She outlived Henry.

No, she was merely lucky that she married an old goat who had pretty much eaten himself to death by the time she came along. She married again within a year of Henry's death and her new husband, Thomas Seymour, molested Elizabeth (with Catherine's full knowledge and assistance).

[quote]I thought Elizabeth took over once Henry passed away.

Good lord. Are people really this ignorant of history?

[quote]Wolf Hall was sterile garbage.

Rubbish. It's the closest approximation to what life in the Tudor court would really have been like that's ever been filmed. Those ridiculous bloated Hollywood epics don't even begin to understand the politics of the period. They're little more than classy bodice rippers.

r90, I hate to break it to you, but the succession of English monarchs a half millennium ago is of marginal interest to most folks nowadays.

R92... I know! It was like Mary! Tudor!

[quote]Are people really this ignorant of history?

Yes, and it seems they can't even google any history.

Elizabeth I may have ruled England, but there certainly is a direct connection to what is now the USA. She granted Walter Raleigh permission to start a colony in this land. Francis Drake, one of her favorites, is the pirate who sacked and burned the St. Augustine colony in Florida.

Some claimed that Mary Queen of Scots was the legitimate heir to the Crown and Elizabeth took care of that little problem swiftly and cleanly. MQoS got what she deserved. Don't fuck with Bess.

Bloody Mary was her sister and she spent her entire life trying to avenge her Mother. Even though she imprisoned Elizabeth, there was talk that two were close.

(R77) We already have a 51st state, called Israel and that state has 100 Senators representing them.

But Mary Queen of Scots got her revenge by giving birth to James I, who ruled England after Elizabeth and created the Stuart line. All subsequent British monarchs can show a descent from her; and none from Elizabeth.

And she's still gloating about it in the afterlife.

[quote]Catherine Parr was the smartest. She outlived Henry.

Barely. She died a year and a half after he did.

Parr has often been called the "Survivor" -- the other wives have been designated Catherine of Aragon ("Queen"), Anne Boleyn ("Lover"), Jane Seymour ("Mother"), Anne of Cleves ("Outcast"), Catherine Howard ("Victim") -- but that title should go to Anne of Cleves, since she lived on for another decade and outlived all of the wives.

R81 and her son James I got to meet Pocahontas, which I find really fascinating. In fact, he treated her like visiting royalty when she visited on her goodwill tour in 1616, the same year Shakespeare died.

And King James authorized the Bible translation that surpasses Shakespeare's works as an enduring influence on the English language.

Was Elizabeth, NJ the first place named for Elizabeth I in The New World?

If so, why didn't she get someplace classier?

"Elizabeth, originally called "Elizabethtown" and part of the Elizabethtown Tract, was founded in 1664 by English settlers. The town was not named for Queen Elizabeth I as many people may assume, but rather for Elizabeth, wife of Vice Admiral Sir George Carteret, 1st Baronet and one of the two original Proprietors of the colony of New Jersey."

It's probably Virginia, often claimed to be named after The Virgin Queen, though historical sources are murky.

Mary Stuart was really quite dim when it came to politics. She all but put the axe in Elizabeth's hands and begged her to chop off her head.

Mary Queen of Scots was also quite the tramp.

A question for the real Tudor nerds: During his first marriage, Henry was obsessed with getting a male heir, by any means necessary. So, why didn't he marry off Princess Mary as soon as she hit puberty, and make do with a male grandchild? After he died the succession of his irregularly legitimate daughters depended on his will, surely he could have willed the crown to a grandson if he'd had no son of his own.

Or would that have given a son-in-law too much power?

Henry wanted a male heir of his own. Princess Mary was a pawn, who would have normally married a foreign king or prince and sent off abroad for the rest of her life. She was engaged to marry at 6, but by the time she was of marriageable age her betrothed married someone else. And by then, Henry wanted to annul his marriage to Catherine, making Mary a bastard and, therefore, worthless to him.

As it turned out, she did marry the King of Spain but was unable to conceive (probably because she left it too late).

[quote]Some claimed that Mary Queen of Scots was the legitimate heir to the Crown and Elizabeth took care of that little problem swiftly and cleanly.

Swiftly? She was imprisoned for nearly 20 years.

[quote]MQoS got what she deserved. Don't fuck with Bess.

You're kind of a cunt, aren't you?

I won't even mention that ridiculous "Bess" ...

I'm with R19 - Anne of Cleves for me. She was pretty much well-loved by Henry (the letters he sent to her are testimony to that) and, whilst their marriage was a dismal failure, she was able to survive the marriage. Christ, the girl got land and property out of a seven-month marriage. Not to mention that she was the last of the Queens to die.

Boleyn was a common strumpet in comparison.

I'll say this about Mary Stuart - she wasn't as clever a political player as she thought. Unlike Elizabeth, she didn't realise the power the image of a female monarch could have, and she was awfully quick to leap into bed with the next guy she decided she fancied. Including that one who looked like him from Coldplay.

[quote]She was pretty much well-loved by Henry (the letters he sent to her are testimony to that)

Pretty? Didn't Henry call her a "Flanders mare" and was disappointed upon meeting her?

[quote]Let's talk about Anne Boleyn

Her influence really came after her death - in the person of her daughter, also known as Elizabeth I.

R24 That's AnnE, bitch!

R111 - yeah, but the fact is that for the rest of his life she was a favourite at court. No other queen had that apres-Henry.

And let's be honest about Boleyn - bitch had been under more sheets than the KKK.

Did James have her song "Colors of the Wind" and then "Just Around the Riverbend"as an encore, R100

Henry found the then Princess Anne of Cleves fat and foul with BO. Historians like to point out that if anyone fit that description it was Henry, but moving on... The King also stated (after his wedding night) that AofC's breasts were slack and so out of sorts he believed she was not a virgin.

That Henry VIII then grew to "love" his now sister was because Anne of Cleves played the hand she was dealt very well.

Though not exactly certain Anne of Cleves and her supporters knew the king wasn't going to chop off the new queen's head, nor was there going to be any of the doings that were used to get rid of Anne Boleyn.

Anne of Cleves gave into Henry's wishes for a divorce *and* to remain confined to his realms (which he had no legal right to do). She would not "play the woman" and change her mind nor stir up trouble with her powerful family. Most importantly there would be no gossip about Henry not being able to perform in bed.

In return Anne of Cleves was treated *very* generously financially and position at court wise.

Mary QofS's second husband, her cousin Lord Darnley, deserves a thread of his own. What a messed up bisexual nightmare; and his only son, James I/VI was a big ole' queen!

There's a portrait somewhere in the Scottish National Portrait Gallery of someone associated with Mary's court. It's a damned good portrait and I have to say, if he was around nowadays, he'd be in all the gossip magazines. Can't for the life of me remember his name.

The story about the drama at Mary QofS's beheading is amazing. Drama Queen!

Anne of Cleves only spoke German....how alluring!

This thread has made me curious about Anne of Cleves and I've been reading about her.

What a fascinating story! Though there isn't much sex, the convolutions of her engagement and courtship, brief marriage and consequent long relationship to the Tudor court are every bit as intriguing as Anne Boleyn's story.

FWIW her Holbein portraits display a far greater allure than those of Boleyn. Could Holbein really have been that far off?

I'm amazed there hasn't been a film just based on The Flanders Mare.

[quote]FWIW her Holbein portraits display a far greater allure than those of Boleyn. Could Holbein really have been that far off?

I think Holbein was taken with her mind, and that might have made him paint her in a slightly better light. Also, the clothing she wore was so different from the fashions of the English court, she seemed dowdy and old-fashioned to Henry.

Mary Queen of Scots constantly schemed and plotted against Elizabeth I. She always felt her claim to be more legitimate and refused to stop her scheming. She became a magnet for every opportunist and wannabe and at a certain point Elizabeth really had no choice. Mary Stuart also bought into the whole Catholic bastard thing. Wasn't her mother French?

I meant her father. Mary Stuart's father was French wasn't he? Her mother was Henry VIII's sister.

"I'm amazed there hasn't been a film just based on The Flanders Mare."

Not enough of a love story to interest Hollywood, they don't want to put money into stories about women finding independence instead of love, in an era when that was impossible for a woman. And I've heard a lot about Anne's post-marriage friendships with Henry and the rest of the royal family, but no man. And she would have been free to marry again, if she chose.

Has any historian ever suggested that she WANTED to go home to Cleves? In England she was rich and independent, in Cleves she would have to obey her male relatives and let them claim her lands and incomes.

[quote]I meant her father. Mary Stuart's father was French wasn't he? Her mother was Henry VIII's sister.

Mary Stuart's mother was Marie de Guise, daughter of the French Duke of Guise. Her father was James V of Scotland whose mother was Henry VIII's sister, Margaret.

Anne of Cleves would have returned home without any of the "gifts" from Henry VIII (had she refused to play along, and most likely in disgrace.

Just as Henry came not to believe Catherine of Aragon lost her virginity on her wedding night to his brother, royal courts and the Cleves family probably would assume Anne was no longer a virgin/the marriage not consummated. In those days *that* was a huge deal.

The Duke of Cleves with much of Europe behind him was not going to allow Anne to be "used and cast aside". Not to mention Anne would have been seen as damaged goods far as other potential royal marriages were concerned.

Anne of C was totally ignorant regarding sexual matters. As it was it took delicate questioning by her ladies and finally one older female to get out of her just what happened on the wedding night.

In theory Mary Queen of Scots was not entitled to succeed Henry VIII since the king had removed his sister and her heirs from the succession, but that could and often was neither here nor there in those times.

As for Mary Queen of Scots scheming against Elizabeth, why shouldn't she?

Mary arrived on English soil to beg her cousin's assistance in restoration to realm; we can debate the wisdom of that decision but Elizabeth had no legal right to imprison Mary at that time. Nor did E. have grounds to keep Mary locked up for decades.

Mary Queen of Scots was within her rights to plot and scheme for her freedom even if Elizabeth's demise was the only solution. Sadly the woman was not the most clever by half and was often betrayed again and again by those she trusted. Several of her ladies (known collectively as "the Marys" (they all shared the same Christian name as the queen)were having intimate relationships with various English lords/Mary's jailers. Pillow talk obviously turned to running their mouths about their mistress.

Mary Queen of Scots was mainly imprisoned for so long because Elizabeth stalled, delayed, refused or whatever to take her royal cousin's life regardless. E. had a great fear of murdering a royal personage and finally stated she would only sign Mary's death warrant when ultimate proof was presented and after a trial.

To her dying day Elizabeth swore she *never* meant for the death warrant she signed authorizing the judicial murder of her cousin to be carried out. The aftermath pretty much played out as shown below. Indeed off and on for the rest of her life Elizabeth was tormented by Mary's death.

I'm wondering, given the bathing habits of ye olde twerps of England, just *what* Anne was supposed to have smelled like. She probably smelled okay to *our* noses, but just different to *theirs*.

Oh, God... we had been so long without it.

There already *is* a book, film and a few television series about a princess of Cleves from roughly the same period. Just not Anne...

Of course any product of the French educational system knows about "La Princesse de Cleves"

Of course..

There really isn't much else interesting here in "God's Gay & Lesbian Waiting Room" to post about is there? How many times can one comment upon: Aaron Schock, Madonna, Mike Woods or other gay news readers/weathermen, Dionne Warwick, NPH and husband, Andy Cohen, And the ever popular, sex, sex, and more sex (or lack thereof is more like).

[quote]the Cleves family probably would assume Anne was no longer a virgin/the marriage not consummated

What?

When the bells rang marking Mary's execution, Elizabeth let out a wail, knowing she had committed the same sin as her father and 10 times over.

R135

Scratch the "not", sorry.

When she told John Skip to deliver a sermon comparing Cromwell to Haman.

Although Anne of Cleves outlived Henry's last wife Catherine Parr, Katherine of Aragon actually had the longest life of any of his wives, living to the ripe old age of 50 (to Anne of Cleves' 41 years).

So it seems there were about 10 years between Henry's death and Elizabeth's ascension to the throne.

Those years consisting of the ineffectual reigns of Edward and Mary must have been a chaotic hell for England.

It's truly impressive that once Elizabeth took power, she not only brought relative peace and harmony to the country but led its development as the strongest national power in the world.

Never mind what Anne of Cleves must have smelled like under all of those heavy skirts, Henry himself must have smelled ten thousand times worse.

Mary's reign over England was apparently pretty much a dictatorship, if my memories of History class are true. Mary was a bit of a fruitcake, truth be told.

[quote]Anne of C was totally ignorant regarding sexual matters. As it was it took delicate questioning by her ladies and finally one older female to get out of her just what happened on the wedding night.

Did Henry claim he found her so repulsive he couldn't perform on their wedding night? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. (He was a real gent, that one.)

Although Anne may have been happy to get out of the marriage with her head attached, considering his history. I also seem to recall that several potential brides had turned him down before Cleves said yes.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Jesus.

I wonder - does anyone think that Anne of Cleves was playing a bit of a strategy on Henry? There seems to be some mutual respect of each other.

The Boleyn Inheritance by Phillipa Gregory, has some interesting reading. Some chapters are from Anne of Cleves POV and I could easily empathise with her

Plus there's a terrific bitch in it called Lady Rochford.Jaw dropping how ruthless and callous a lot of the women as well as men must have been

From "The Tudors" series I gather Anne and Henry got along amicably post-divorce, but I don't know if that's the opinion of historians.

R140

Now you understand why Henry VIII wanted a brood of sons and hence a stable succession. Sadly he got only one sickly male heir and two girls.

Henry VIII was the last monarch Parliament allowed itself to be bullied out of its role in deciding the succession.

Upon Elizabeth I's death James I of Scotland was slipped in. Charles I was executed. The Stuarts recalled and finally the throne is now occupied by heirs of Electress Sophia of Hanover. All by actions of Parliament. If the Bourbons of France and Romanovs of Russia had paid more attention perhaps they would have ended differently.

R 190

Did anyone see the mini series with Helen Mirren? When they got to Queen of Scots execution, I guessed they would be a bit more graphic then tv series of old, but from a long shot at least

Was not expecting the close up shot of the axe going into her neck and her screaming because it's going horribly wrong.

Then after the 2nd or 3rd go with the axe and they hold her head up and her wig comes off, thought it was the filmakers being sensationalistic

Had to go onto the internet to find out it was the gruesome truth

Henry didn't hate Anne of Cleves as he did say Anne B., he just didn't fancy her sexually and wanted nothing to do with her as his wife. No different than today when plenty of former spouses (divorced) get along great afterwards.

R143

Henry still believed himself to be "Jack the Lad" fat, foul smelling and old as he was by this time. Daughters of France (Francis I's daughters) were a few of the potential brides mentioned before Anne of Cleves. Henry wanted/hinted these potential brides should be presented for inspection. King Francis shot back that the females of his family were not brood mares to be mounted and test ridden.

The famous quote you are thinking of came from the young Duchess of Milan.

[quote]The famous quote you are thinking of came from the young Duchess of Milan.

Oh yeah, something like she'd marry him if she had an extra head? Heh.

I tried to read one of Philippa Gregory's books and was appalled at George Boleyn's execution scene including him weeping and pleading for his life. Even contemporary accounts that were not sympathetic to the family said he went to the scaffold bravely.

R150

What's the movie's name?

Ye Olde aynd Ffyrst Excedrin Moment.

lmfao, W&W for R154.

This is my favorite version of the death of Mary Queen of Scots.

[quote]Mary's reign over England was apparently pretty much a dictatorship

Uh, all monarchs were dictators at this time in history. That's the point of absolute monarchy. Henry was a tyrant and a despot, and Elizabeth was equally as rigorous in her display of absolute power. It was the only way to rule, because if you showed any weakness there were plenty of people around you who would be more than happy to usurp you (as several English monarchs can attest).

Ja, ja, it is true, wenig...my woman hidden areas smell! It is a family trait. Meine kleine Cheryl in your century suffers from the same!

I'm just surprised that they allowed women to be so powerful back then, especially since regular women were treated like chattel with no rights. Then here you have Bloody Mary and Elizabeth I holding absolute power, not only over women, but also over men.

How did they justify letting a woman (i.e. queen) hold so much power, since the Bible denigrates women?

[quote]How did they justify letting a woman (i.e. queen) hold so much power, since the Bible denigrates women?

Because they were the children of a divinely appointed monarch and above normal human beings. People in Medieval Europe believed that the monarch, and his or her offspring, had a direct relationship with God that placed them above normal mortals. Although Mary and Elizabeth would have been tolerated for this reason, there was a great deal of uneasiness about their role as monarch. It's also the reason Elizabeth didn't marry, because she could not be seen to be subservient to her husband (as many believed Mary was to Philip of Spain).

Her name.

King Henry the Eighth six wives he wedded One Died, One Survived, Two Divorced, Two Beheaded

[quote]King Henry the Eighth six wives he wedded One Died, One Survived, Two Divorced, Two Beheaded

That doesn't make sense, because the two beheaded also died. Beheaded means getting your head chopped off. No on survives a beheading. Also, he wedded all of them, not just one. As for survivors, only two outlived Henry: Anne of Cleves and Catherine Parr.

It's a rhyme r163. Designed to help people remember who his wives were. Helped me during trivial pursuit a number of times. Stop over thinking.

although perhaps I should re-format it since it didn't take the 1st time:

King Henry the Eighth six wives he wedded: One Died, One Survived, Two Divorced, Two Beheaded

[quote]It's a rhyme

Not the way you wrote it, R164.

Divorced

Beheaded

Died

Divorced

Beheaded

Survived

R165 that still doesn't make sense, because Anne of Cleves survived her divorce; in fact, she outlived Henry by ten years. Meanwhile, Catherine Parr did survive Henry, but barely; she died a year after his death of childbirth complications, not unlike Jane Seymour.

Christ on a cross. It's a simple saying. Not an Encyclopedia Britannica entry.

Damn, there was a time when we had intelligent people posting at DL.

The Divorced, Beheaded, Died, .... has been around since at least the last century so that people can remember the order of what happed to the six wives. This way, you could figure out which one was the first wife and which one was the second wife and ...... and ..... and...

There was even a song about it.

Divorced, beheaded and died. Divorced, beheaded, survived. I'm Henry the Eigth, I had six sorry wives. Some might say I ruined their lives....

Is world history no longer taught in the United States?

If you Google “divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived”, you get 90,900 Henry VIII wives results in 0.36 seconds but R166 thinks it doesn't make sense.

She should have stayed married to Irving.The royalties from "White Christmas" alone...

Henry really demanded that his wives give head.

R169 I know what it refers to; I just mean it doesn't really fit, because Henry didn't just divorce two of them or that just one of them died or only one survived.

He in fact divorced 5 of them, four which pre-deceased him (Aragon, Boleyn, Seymour, Howard) and two survived him (Cleves, Parr).

Funny that people say that Anne Boleyn was the only Queen who was a scholar and/or smart. In fact Katherine of Aragon, albeit not a scholar, has an excellent humanist education and was well read. Katherine Parr was also a scholar, and probably smarter than Anne Boleyn.

It helps if you aren't pedantic, R172.

[quote]That doesn't make sense, because the two beheaded also died

'Died' in context means that she died autonomously with no one else deliberately bringing about her death. Two wives lost their heads in executions, one died in bed while all around her tried to save her.

[quote]that still doesn't make sense, because Anne of Cleves survived her divorce

That's not what 'survived' means in context. The rhyme refers to how each marriage ended. Anne of Cleves' marriage ended in divorce. Katherine Parr's marriage ended when she survived Henry's death. His marriage to Jane Seymour ended when he survived her. 'Survived' refers to outliving one's legally-wedded spouse, not one's former spouse. Parr was a royal widow, Cleves was not.

Anne Boleyn was amazing. Just by withholding pussy, she got Henry to change religions, get rid of a crazy Catholic wife, and a bunch of other changes.

See straight women, withhold pussy and see what you get.

Catherine of Aragon wasn't crazy, just pious. Women in the 16th century were chattels, to be bought and sold to the most prestigious husband possible. That was especially true for royal women. Henry was also very pious, and far crazier than Catherine. I mean, he's the one who beheaded two of his wives (one because she couldn't give him a son, and the other because she was a randy 21 year old married to an old goat who couldn't get it up).

R166, I dare you to come up with better, more thoroughly explanatory, one-word descriptions of each of the six marriages. That rhyme. Because "died of natural causes" and "survived her husband" neither rhyme nor fit the structure.

Oh, and I found a picture of Anne of Cleve's sister Sybille. Not bad looking, for a pasty German girl with no makeup on.

Wearing a coronet of thistle at a cocked angle like Sybille would have been considered the height of sexual allure in 1535.

Ann was reared in the French court during adolescence, where she was trained in the sexual arts. Women who took sexual pleasure from coupling with a man, or who engaged in foreplay to arouse him, were considered loose women and sluts. Thus she gained a bad reputation. Catherine of Aragon was prayerful and stiff, so Ann was Henry's first taste of sexual pleasure. Even the whores he used before Ann were usually hit and run.

Poor Mary I has always been maligned by historians- male, Protestant historians who did their PR damage to her reputation as soon as Elizabeth succeeded her to the throne. Henry treated his eldest child like shit only because she was a good Catholic girl who sided with her mother Catherine of Aragon in the divorce and saw Anne Boleyn as the scheming slut she was. Of course Mary killed off a lot of Protestant leaders- with a very basic reason: SHE WAS AVENGING HER MOTHER!!! She was also desperate to have a baby, but Henry kept her 'on ice' so long as an unmarried princess it was practically too late when she married Phillip of Spain.

Interestingly, there has yet to be a movie on Mary's life: with all the heartbreak and drama it had, it would be Oscar material- are you listening, Meryl?

[quote]...and saw Anne Boleyn as the scheming slut she was

No need for name calling. Especially name calling that is far from the truth.

[quote]Of course Mary killed off a lot of Protestant leaders- with a very basic reason: SHE WAS AVENGING HER MOTHER!!

How utterly un-Christian of her.

"Interestingly, there has yet to be a movie on Mary's life: with all the heartbreak and drama it had, it would be Oscar material- are you listening, Meryl?"

I don't think so, her personal life was so unhappy and frustrated, and her reign as queen wasn't pretty.

If you wanted to portray her as a sympathetic character, you'd have a hell of a time trying to write an ending. Instead of the happy ending audiences expect, after decades of waiting she finally becomes queen and marries... and her marriage is miserable and her reign short, she spent her last days knowing that the sister she never agreed was going to take over and undo everything she'd done in the name of her faith.

I loved Mary's portrayal in the Cate Blanchett ELIZABETH.

Her scenes in the beginning of the film, mewling and simpering with her dwarf over her Catholic guilt, are some of the best in it.

Who was that actress?

Mary's portrayal in Elizabeth was also one of the more accurate renderings of her sad tale. The very brilliant Kathy Burke played Queen Mary, the older sister of Elizabeth.

I loved that movie, especially Geoffrey Rush and Christopher Eccleston. Of course Vincent Cassel and Fanny Ardant were brilliant, too. Even Joseph Fiennes was very good.

The men in ELIZABETH like Eccleston, Fiennes and even Rush never looked hotter than they did in their pumpkin hose.

I loved Geoffrey Rush's Walsingham. He was England's first spymaster. I love how Richard Attenborough described him to Elizabeth. She asked who he was, and Lard Attenborough said, "He is Sir Francis Walsingham, We hired him to have a care for your majesty's person. "

For R158, I think it was Kathy Burke:

And Rhys Ifans was fantastic in Elizabeth The Golden Age as Robert Reston (actually John Ballard), one of the Catholics trying to kill her.

And I loved him in Anonymous!

R189, Didn't you read R186?

This was a fascinating thread. I'm going to miss this type of stuff when the "real" DL shuts down next month.

Why are you going to miss it R193. The upgrade works just fine.

England's greatest queen consort gave birth to England's greatest Queen regent

Henry couldn't get it up for Anne Of Cleeves, saying she was smelly, fat and had misshapen boobs.

She initially balked at seperation and stepping down as Queen but eventually made the smart decision for which she was richly rewarded, as the King's "Beloved Sister".

Who's Anne Berlin?

Idk r197. Probably some drag queen.

[quote]England's greatest queen consort gave birth to England's greatest Queen regent

Oh, thenk ya, but et was relly nething.

Regents act for the actual king or queen, who is too young, busy somewhere else or a loony. Elizabeths I and II were queens regnant, not regent.

Anne of Cleves got the best deal. She was too ugly to be his wife, so she got all the castles, jewelry and servants without having to have sex with his Royal Grossness.

She loved cock so much that she risked her life for it!

Though Anne of Cleves had some trouble getting her pension paid towards the end of her life and found things rather difficult.

With all the royal machinations, she kept her head. Oops... wrong wife.

Old 'enry was no bargain.

[quote]Though Anne of Cleves had some trouble getting her pension paid towards the end of her life and found things rather difficult.

Wait, what? Is there something I need to know?

I love some of their movies!

Catherine Parr is his least interesting wife, in spite of being married 4 times!

R206, I'll do the talking on this.

What I like is that Genevieve Bujold played her in Anne of the Thousand Days. She was amazing!

Elizabeth Taylor wanted that role so she could keep an eye on Burton, but was told she was too old!

Anne Boleyn was intelligent and spoke several languages. She was trained at the French Court, and she could read. She vigorously supported the protestant movement, and she was the one who suggested to Henry he put together his own church...and a book of common prayer. It may surprise you that Anne was religious and prayed often and had religious counselors.

You know the Catholic Church frowned on anyone but the clergy reading and didn't want women to read at all and neither did the male dominated culture of the times. So women who were educated, who read, were frowned on. Women couldn't read, they couldn't own property and they were wholly subject to the rule of their husbands or fathers, who could literally do anything they wanted to women. Any woman who resisted that authority was seen to be in league with the Devil.

The reason the Religious didn't want people in general reading is because they felt they alone were fit to interpret and teach what was in the Bible. The Catholic Church believed once people started reading and forming their own opinions they would challenge the Church's teachings. And that's ezzackly what happened. Anne was a happy young woman, who loved to dance and enjpyed music. She wanted to play an instrument.

IMO, the most accurate interpretation of Anne was in The Other Boleyn Girl. (not 100%, but maybe 65-70%) I thought the series on Netflix The Tudors was also pretty accurate in that both the movie and the series showed how Anne and her sister were pawns for their father's ambitions. When Anne saw how quickly Henry cast her sister aside, even though Mary gave him a son, she knew she had to try for something more permanent. Thank you for this thread. I'm going to re-watch the Tudors on Netflix.

Eccleston was so hot in “Elizabeth.” Great shot of his naked butt as he fucks his treacherous maid.

But you’ve all forgotten an early appearance by one Daniel Craig, as a sinister Catholic assassin, who gets caught, and is last seen stripped to the waist, hanging upside down, having torches singeing his hairy chest.

"You know the Catholic Church frowned on anyone but the clergy reading and didn't want women to read at all and neither did the male dominated culture of the times. So women who were educated, who read, were frowned on."

That changed during Henry's lifetime, young noblewomen like his own daughter Elizabeth and her cousin Lady Jane Gray were highly educated, given the same sort of education as young noblemen - minus the fencing lessons of course. So when Elizabeth took the throne as a young woman, she did so knowing damn well that her mind was "the equal of any man's".

Women like her may have been the first generation of highly educated women in the British isles, since the Romans left.

Catherine of Aragon, as Catholic as you could get, was extremely well-educated in the latest humanist style and imported a leading scholar to teach Princess Mary.

Why are we talking about Anne Boleyn's daughter Elizabeth? When royalty, who ruled by Divine Right and who had to cooperate and support the Pope, who was a military force, allowed their women to learn to read, and to read prayers, they had to do it under the strict supervision of their own personal Priest Confessor. Yes, Henry's daughters were educated but in a very limited way. There was a lot they were not allowed to do or to read. Anne Boleyn's intelligence and her independent questioning spirit was not considered an asset. She was regarded by the old Conservative Farts as someone who was out of control.

[quote] young noblewomen like his own daughter Elizabeth and her cousin Lady Jane Gray were highly educated, given the same sort of education as young noblemen - minus the fencing lessons of course.

Lady Jane Gray - now there's an interesting story! Imprisoned in the Tower of London. Was Queen for 9 days before being executed as a usurper.

"Yes, Henry's daughters were educated but in a very limited way. There was a lot they were not allowed to do or to read. "

Can you expand on that? Because everything I've ever read about Elizabeth I said that she had a top-flight education, the equal of any young man's, that she studied languages, philosophy, theology, etc., and that her mind and education were considered to be as good as any aristocratic man's. And she also spent her youth living in the country, either in her own castles or with the Seymours, and if she chose to spend her time there studying advanced philosophy instead of embroidering like a normal girl of her class, there was nobody there to stop her.

She spent little time at court until she was twenty, it wasn't considered proper for her to live at the court of her brother Edward, because he was unmarried. Yeah, it was actually considered improper for an unmarried girl to live at the house of an unmarried brother, so she lived in the country and did what she liked. And she liked to study.

No . I will not expand. I'm completely right and everyone else is w rong. Lalalalalaaaa

Was she the pretty one or the one with too many fingers?

Interestingly, Henry had expressed a desire to marry Mary Stuart's mother, Marie de Guise. Marie wisely said hell no.

The ridiculous idea that medieval women didn't read and the church opposed it: Marie de France, Cristine de Pizan, Mother Julian of Norwich, St Catherine of Siena, St Bridget of Sweden, Hildegard of Bingen and the rest of the army of female authors and literary patrons known from the Middle Ages would like a word. Sts Catherine and Bridget corresponded extensively with the pope, for fuck's sake.

When it comes to marriage, Henry the VIII was the Elizabeth Taylor of the early 1500s!

"Elizabeth R" the six part 1970 BBC miniseries staring Glenda Jackson is a must see! The best of them all.

I'll start you off...

Apparently she and Henry had lavish parties when Catherine of Aragon died, which is awful.

The Catholic Church operatives had as much as anyone to do with undermining Anne and working towards her death. She was doomed.

I've seen several versions of Elizabeth I but Cate Blanchett is my favorite. I think it's because of Geoffrey Rush and Christopher Eccleston.

I wasn't crazy about Natalie Dormer as Anne Boleyn in The Tudors, but the way they characterized her father was pretty damning. He was despicable. Pure slime. That actor did a good job.

What 'Catholic Church representatives' had anything to do with AB's fall, R227? They were delighted, obviously, but didn't actually get anything out of it. Anne Boleyn got the chop for failing to produce a son, and because Henry was a psychopath, or at least became mentally unbalanced after the fall that left him unconscious for hours. In any case, Anne was a very untypical choice for Henry, who otherwise went for quiet, docile women. In many ways it was surprising the volatile and tempestuous Anne lasted as long as she did.

Katherine of Aragon was highly intelligent and well-educated. Though these days seen through a religious lens as pious and stubborn, she was highly accomplished and one of the most educated women in history at that point. She also acted as the first female ambassador to Spain and was also put in charge of the country in Henry's absence, again, something that a woman had never done.

It's also worth noting she was married to Henry for longer than the rest of his wives put together. All those miscarriages and stillbirths and you can kind of understand why she was so horrified that Henry would seek annulment or divorce.

She was head and shoulders above the the competition… until she wasn't

[quote]Katherine of Aragon was highly intelligent and well-educated.

And sly. She was married to Henry's brother. She was able to convince an entire nation that she was still a virgin. How the British ever conqueered as much of the world as they did is a mystery because they were the most gullible nation in recorded civilization.

Prince Arthur to Katherine of Aragon: "OH, GIRL! WAIT UNTIL I TELL YOU WHAT THEY'RE THAYIN' ABOUT THE ARCH BISHOP of CANTERBURY!"

R231 You think if she wasn't a virgin when she married Henry she'd have got away with it?

It's well documented her marriage to Henry's brother wasn't consummated and that she lost her virginity to Henry. Their bedsheets were examined with a forensic intensity that would put CSI to shame. Women in those days were subject to horribly invasive procedures to see if they were still virgins.

Someone as pious as Katherine wouldn't have lied about something like that. She wasn't perfect and made some mistakes in her life but the idea she'd lie about something so important "before God" is nonsense. She was the most powerful woman in Europe with some very, very powerful close family members on her side - she chose to stick to the guns she knew were true.

The Catholic Church didn't KNOW they wouldn't get anything out of Anne's death. The conservative Clergy in the hierarchy were convinced she had bewitched Henry and he'd come to his senses once she was discredited and eliminated. You do know they did try to assassinate Elizabeth her daughter? Not saying they would have assassinated Anne, but they would have certainly participated in any efforts to marginalize her and portray her as lustful, perverted, a witch, and someone who engaged in witchcraft and incest. The depredations they accused her of would make your head spin.

The English weren't about to send Katherine packing back to Spain. The daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella was a real get for the the fledgling Tudor dynasty and helped legitimize them to the rest of Europe.

True, r235, but of course she had to contend with two miserly old bastards, her father Ferdinand and Henry VII her father in law, bitching and moaning and niggling about her dowry, and whether the Arthur dowry could be applied to the Henry dowry. That shit went on for years until finally Henry VII died, and Henry VIII could say, fuck that noise, let's just get married now.

You bitches know that I love the great Anne Boleyn. And I love how she got the last laugh through her daughter. Something I'm curious about is Elizabeth never really talks about her mother, but then I guess she was young when Anne was beheaded.

that is interesting, r237, but I'd guess it was a combination of a painful subject and also a question of not opening up old wounds when you're trying to bring a fractured nation together.

Also I think whoever is really off base with the whole education of women in the Renaissance era, and this was the late Renaissance. If anything, the Catholic church was encouraging this, for noble and royal women at least, precisely because it was thought they would be more virtuous if they weren't ignorant slatterns. And the Church wasn't afraid of people reading, it was afraid of translating the Bible from Latin, so that the ignorant would have access to it. I have to admit it's been a mixed bag, now that every moron with a Bible is eager to shriek and shout about their own interpretation of Revelation and how we're all, always, and forever living in the End Times. That, and I wish Leviticus had been kept in Latin. But maybe it's just me.

I’m still waiting to find out if she was the pretty one or the one with extra fingers?

I'm always distracted by how much people must have stunk back then.

What would they have smelled like?

Did they use candles or anything make their living quarters smell nice?

If everyone is stinking you don't notice it.

[quote] Something I'm curious about is Elizabeth never really talks about her mother, but then I guess she was young when Anne was beheaded.

I think she also knew it was smart politically to distance herself from her. Elizabeth was found with a miniature painting of her mother in a locket or ring when she died.

What is the 2015 Bumper Troll's damage?

Is it a Trump supporter / Russian troll trying to push bad news for Trump off the front page?

Was she the whore one?

Stanley Holloway knows all about the ghost of Anne Boleyn.

[quote]Was she the whore one?

Yup, that's her exactly

"The daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella was a real get for the the fledgling Tudor dynasty and helped legitimize them to the rest of Europe. "

I was about to say that maybe that was why the Tudors bought Mary's story of still being a virgin after her first marriage, but then I remembered that her marriage to Henry was entirely Henry's idea. Little Prince Henry had had a crush on his older sister-in-law during her marriage to Prince Arthur, and when his father died and he became King Henry VIII, he decided he was going to damn well marry his widowed sister-in-law. It was only later that he claimed she wasn't a virgin at the time and that made the marriage illegal.

Henry VII didn't want his surviving son to marry Katherine, but he didn't want to send her back to Spain either, because that would have meant returning her dowry. She stayed in England and lived in comparative poverty, between husbands.

Has Hilary Mantel commented yet?

R229, you are wrong about women never being left in England as regent before Catherine - it was standard practice for much of the medieval period, when the English kings ruled great chunks of France - queens from Matilda of Flanders to Eleanor of Aquitaine did it routinely. It only changed when uxorious kings like Henry III and Edward I began to take their wives with them.

R250 It's not quite the same. Katherine was left in charge in entirety - not as a regent. She was highly respected as the daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella. She's been much mocked through history but it's important to remember she was one of the most important women in Europe at the time, and had the arrogance to go with it.

When she arrived in England, the people receiving her didn't know how to handle such a grand woman. She came from a much richer family than the one she was married into. Her upbringing was extraordinary.

[quote]It's well documented her marriage to Henry's brother wasn't consummated and that she lost her virginity to Henry. Their bedsheets were examined with a forensic intensity that would put CSI to shame.

Barbra got away with it in Yentl by spilling a bit of wine on the bed. Oldest trick in the book.

Miss Ouisa says "Who's AMBER Lynn?" And not Anne Berlin.

this is 80s prob star AMBER Lynn

R102 Virginia was the first territory taken by Raleigh for the Virgin Queen Elizabeth.

Anne of Cleves wasn't a divorcee, married without consummation equaled an annulment, and she by far drew the longest straw.

Yup, always kind of like Anne of Cleves, but I guess it was just luck and knowing when to say yes to a decent offer. Still, she winds up with a palace full of servants, and pretty much no responsibilities, and even I believe developed a friendship Henry later on. It was a very satisfying outcome all around, and not having to get crushed by that tub o lard or nurse his gross leg or any of that crap.

Perhaps someone here can answer my question about Anne of Cleves: She never married again, never tried to marry. She seemed quite content to be mistress of her own fortune and her own castles, and to be friends with Henry and his children and to be one of the few independent women of her age. As such, she died childless, and presumably died a virgin.

Did her deal with Henry include a promise to stay celibate, or unmarried? I mean, that would be unacceptable to some people, although Anne was reportedly happy enough without a man.

Wasn't Anne of Cleves the ugly one that Henry was like, "hell no!"

I think that you've answered your own question, R257. She was a wealthy, independent woman; why would she want to hand over control to a husband?

R257 She was free with enough wealth of her own and distance from family to not be high end property to a man. She could've had liaisons but she was a rarity in having the luxury of not being chattel.

The larger-than-life character of King Henry VIII (1509-47) dazzles across the centuries. He founded a national church, transformed government, built a strong Navy and encouraged a flourishing of the arts. He is also remembered for the extraordinary marital merry-go-round that saw him wed six wives in his quest for a male heir (and ideally a spare) to secure the Tudor dynasty on England’s throne.

But what of those six wives, almost hidden in Henry’s monstrous shadow and recalled less by name than by their fates summed up in the well-known rhyme: divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived? Far from the puppets implied, each is a fascinating flesh-and-blood figure and each dealt differently with Henry and the challenges they faced. The consequences determined the course of royal history.

One wouldn't mind being chattel if Henry looked like this. Hubba Hubba!

Anne has not been captured on film. Of course, we don't know what she was really like. But, sometimes an actor creates a template for how historical character is played. Glenda Jackson did this with Elizabeth.

Re Anne

Genevieve Bujold captured Anne's appearance and initial liveliness, but not her manipulative, punitive nature.

Natalie Portman played her too stiff to be Anne. Although she does a wonderful emotionally unraveling at the Tower.

Natalie Dormer imbued Anne with sex appeal, exposing her manipulative cold-heartedness. Especially toward Katherine, Mary and their supporters. Yet, failed to captured the lively Anne, the popular girl at court, witty and surrounded by laughter.

I haven't seen Claire Foy - so maybe she does.

I doubt it. Anne goes from lively popular girl, to manipulative woman out for a crown, to the sexiest woman in England (AFAH was concerned) to a shrewish wife given to temper tantrums, to a cold-hearted woman demanding death sentences for Thomas More and others, humiliating Mary and giving a party when Katherine died, to a complete emotional mess in the Tower.

It's a lot. Which is why we are still talking about her today.

[quote] I haven't seen Claire Foy - so maybe she does.

Nope. Claire was my least favorite Anne. She does play the martyr well, but that's about it for our Claire.

I’m one of those people who love every performance. Anne is just such a fascinating figure that I take I just fall in love with all of the performances. I even have a framed Anne Boleyn hanging in my foyer.

Elizabeth I was an extremely well-educated and intelligent person. That her mother was very intelligent was a trait passed on to the daughter.

Compared to Elizabeth I, the current monarch, Elizabeth II barely received a decent education. She does not seem able to speak any language other than English. Elizabeth I was fluent in Latin, Greek, Spanish, Italian and French.

"After William Grindal died of the plague, Grindal’s teacher Roger Ascham became Elizabeth’s tutor. The schedule Ascham arranged for his pupil makes today’s school day seem easy by comparison. In the morning Elizabeth studied Greek, including the Greek New Testament and Greek literature. In the afternoon she worked on Latin authors, and in the evening she learned history and studied oratory. Unlike other teachers in the sixteenth century, however, Ascham thought that learning should be enjoyable. He believed in praising rather than punishing students. He wrote, “I have dealt with many learned ladies, but among them all the brightest star is my illustrious Lady Elizabeth.” He also thought his students should learn about a variety of things, so in addition to her schoolwork Elizabeth also played musical instruments, hunted, and rode horses."

Nobody forced Elizabeth to study that hard, folks, she did it because she wanted to. Few women of her time had access to such an education, and few wanted one, but that's how the Lady Elizabeth chose to spend her youth.

And it turns out, all that effort was well spent, she actually did need to develop every last brain cell to its fullest potential.

At one time, she seemed to have a good head on her shoulders.

There are also two appearances by Ann Boleyn no one here has mentioned. Both are brief, but telling: Merle Oberon’s first memorable film appearance, awaiting her end, at the beginning of “The Private Life of Henry VIII” (1933), and a brief cameo by the incandescent Vanessa Redgrave, in “ A Man for All Seasons” (1966).

Of the two, Redgrave, in mere seconds of screen time, shows the kind of luminous charm Boleyn must have had. The chemistry between her and Robert Shaw’s virile king is palable.

R266 Elizabeth II speaks fluent French. Everyone knows this.

The Old Girl having a pretty good go in French. Definitely accented, but decent pronunciation nevertheless.

R271 She's reading from a script written for her. She's fully able to converse in French when she meets French-speaking delegates.

Has anyone speculated that Elizabeth I was possibly intersexed? That might explain why she never married. Is this a type of trans erasure?

You are just inventing stuff, r251 - she was invested with the regency, with a regency council to advise her. Everyone's position is unique if you focus narrowly enough. She was the first English queen to be given the regency for about 400 years - isn't that enough?

Henry started chasing after her when she was about 18. She really wasn't in love with him, but was pushed by her father and her uncle. She had two men in her life that she was in love with, but she was a young girl. The betrothal to Henry Percy was a love match, but they were thwarted by his father and by her uncle, Norfolk. Her father was an ambitious man, a greedy piece of slime.

I've also checked and a woman's education was mostly religion focused and they were allowed to learn basic reading writing and arithmetic.

What most people don't realize is that English royalty's first language was French for centuries dating back to William the Conqueror . The Saxons the Welsh, and the Scots and Irish spoke their own language and it was considered crude. Eventually the Engliish language evolved, but even in the 1500's it was a class thng. In the 1500's it was still considered a matter of being upper class to speak French. It was also the universal language of diplomacy. So all the nations of Europe could communicate with one another in French. While they didn't use it for conversation LAtin was also learned and used in written matters interchangeably with French and Engliish.

[quote]The Old Girl having a pretty good go in French. Definitely accented, but decent pronunciation nevertheless

Maybe next she could have a go at fashion. Green is not her color.

One of the foreign Ambassadors to her court remarked about Elizabeth I: "Although she was engaged in conversation with one person, I could see that she was listening with rapt attention to another who was then speaking, and still she set her gaze upon a third person across the room watching him ever so intently."

"Has anyone speculated that Elizabeth I was possibly intersexed? That might explain why she never married"

Yes, I've seen speculation, but all of it greatly post-dates Elizabeth's reign. And some of it seems to come from people who have a bit of trouble with a brilliant monarch being entirely female.

In Elizabeth's time, she was accepted as female, and I remember reading quotes from her contemporaries where they were always speculating that she looked pale and sickly, "... as if lately come from childbed", and passing on rumors that she'd lost or born a secret child. She was constantly surrounded by ladies-in-waiting from infancy to her deathbed, any obvious physical abnormality would have been known. And as for never marrying, we've been over that. She seems to have been a heterosexual with a passionate nature, as she had intense relationships with men who she couldn't marry because of the politics of the day - Dudley chief among them. There weren't any suitable foreign princes who were Protestants, who'd provide some alliance and who wouldn't try to make England part of their own kingdom, and if she married an English noble then all the other English nobles would have been out to stab him in the back. If she'd been able to do what she liked, she'd just have married Dudley and have had his babies.

Well, except for Dudley already being married.

Well, except for Mrs. Dudley falling down a staircase and dying, leaving Dudley free to remarry.

However, the strange death of Amy caused a scandal, and Elizabeth prudently limited her time with Dudley in the aftermath.

As it is today, I'm sure even moreso then, it would probably have been difficult for a man to submit to a woman. Both Philip and Albert in modern times had trouble with this. I'm sure it would have been difficult for a man like Dudley who was used to being the head of the house, to have to suddenly submit to a woman.

If Elizabeth I would have married when her husband have automatically become "King of England' and taken her power... is that why she did not marry? If that's a dumb question, please feel free to call me Rose.

Well it's all a little unclear, r282. She would have remained Queen, and he would be some kind of consort royal, possibly king consort which is a bit different from ruling King. But psychologically in those times, it wasn't clear if people would start looking at him as a kind of King, and would that whole "women submit to your husbands" thing come into play. It STILL does with some wingnut evangelical women in Congress or other political offices.

Mary Queen of Scots struggled with this with Lord Darnley and it didn't end well.

Philip of Spain was king of England jure uxoris at the time of Queen Mary's reign. King by marriage. Coins were cast with them jointly, he signed documents. This has largely been suppressed by the English who have no fondness for Spanish Catholic kings. So this is what Elizabeth faced. Also he was ten years younger than Mary, handsome at that point and she seems to have infatuated with him. He called her "tia" (aunt) " affectionately, which sounds unsexy as he'll. Poor woman.

Yeah, Queen "Bloody" Mary had a sucky life. Spend her childhood and young womanhood being treated as unworthy to be her father's heir even though she was his only legitimate child, being forbidden to see her mother after the ugly divorce, being declared illegitimate as a young woman, spending her youth wishing someone gave enough of a damn about her to find her a husband, staying a frustrated virgin until her thirties, finally marrying a man who treated her like a his boring old aunt, being totally unsuited to be queen and doing a crap job, and dying young and childless.

Her sister Elizabeth spent her years of being an ignored bastard becoming the most remarkable female scholar of her era, but Mary didn't have any compensations. She just spent her time being unhappy.

Mary was an early pyromaniac

Wasn't Jane Seymour instrumental in getting Mary and Elizabeth back in the line of succession and declared legitimate? Was she just a decent person or was there something else at play?

It was Katherine Parr that forged a reconciliation between Henry and his girls.

Mary was definitely dealt a shitty hand. She went from being the most sought-after princess on the marriage market and apple of her father's eye to being declared illegitimate and unwanted. Gotta hand it to her, though, for having the backbone to stand up to her father by refusing to acknowledge that Anne was queen.

Thanks R288

Elizabeth refused to marry because she didn't want to be killed for her throne. Husband, heir, oops!

reply 291 - Exactly.

Fun fact: Anne of Cleves' brother William the Rich is an ancestor to all modern European monarchies from his daughter's marriage to the Duke of Prussia.

Well again, r291, that is all worked in complicated negotiations. Queen Mary's husband Philip did NOT inherit when she died. And same with the other Mary Queen of Scots, who never gave her husband the "Crown Matrimonial," which would allow him to inherit on her death. Of course, in his case, he predeceased her, to put it mildly.

But I won't deny that everyone was really iffy about women ruling anyway and a husband could have been a very dangerous competitor.

that's really interesting too r293.

Actually Queen Isabella's husband Ferdinand of Aragon did not inherit her throne either, when she died, even though they were definitely a partnership. It went to her daughter, poor mad Joanna. Spain would have to wait a generation or two before finally being one big (really rich) country.

Anne turned out not to be as headstrong as history reported.

Is it true guards would have their way with condemned women in the days before execution as they had no one to complain to and would be dead before any pregnancy showed?

She was truly hateful to Henry's daughter Mary.

well, yeah, r298 she tried to get her killed, by her own father. Oh these Tudors, they just weren't feeling the love more often than not.

when Henry stripped Mary of her princess title, Anne had Mary join Elizabeth's household as one of her "ladies." Meee-owwwww!

"Is it true guards would have their way with condemned women in the days before execution as they had no one to complain to and would be dead before any pregnancy showed? "

I'm sure that happened to some female prisoners, but it'd be a brave man who'd rape a queen before her execution! Mary Queen of Scots was still Queen Elizabeth's cousin, and Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard were still Henry's legal wives, and raping them could easily be considered as dishonoring the monarch's name or family.

Are you the wierdo who keeps asking if the Romanovs were raped while in imprisoned, and asking for details?

Anne Boleyn was imprisoned in the Tower apartments that Henry had refurbished for her to stay in before her coronation, as was customary for future Queens of England. She was always in the presence of ladies in waiting chosen by the warden of the Tower, Sir William Kingston. Historical documents indicate she was treated with respect while imprisoned. In fact, her execution was delayed as she had requested the Swordsman of Calais to do the job, as he was a highly skilled executioner. He was also an expensive choice. She also didn't want to put her head on a block. She died kneeling, not with her head on a block.

Someone set up Anne. Was it the Pope's allies?

More like Henry himself, R303. Another divorce would have made him look bad, so he had to find another way to get rid of her and move onto Jane Seymour.

During the reign of the Tudors, everything was run by faction politics. Anne represented the anti-Catholic, pro-Protestant faction/group of aristocrats. Other factions turned on her faction and she was the sacrificial goat, along with her brother. Some of the other men killed with her had been involved in the taking down of Cardinal Wolsey, and had mistreated him, and Cromwell (who was mentored by Cromwell) ensured their demises.

And then old Cromwell went down himself. One minute you're Henry's bff, the next you're worm chow

She hit me in the head with a fondue pot.

Cromwell died because he pushed for an alliance with German protestants (via marriage with Anne of Cleves). Other factions accused Cromwell of conspiring to usurp Henry, by Cromwell creating this alliance. That Harry allowed his execution just proves that Harry was a psychopath.

Anne also had her education against her in the end of their relationship, when there was no shortage of accusations and beliefs about her especially after the way Katherine died (most thinking it being Annes doing through witchcraft or poisoning), the sixth finger was considered a form of an abomination and 'proof'. Henry was able to successfully use the accusation of witchcraft against her in her trial along with her unpopularity. Accusations reiterated by all of her actions in manipulating Henry with books and 'ideas', for having the temerity to insert herself into and push a controversial agenda.

One strength she didn't seem to have was to pick and choose her battles.

Very important lesson in the whole Henry VIII saga. Henry was very, very religious - it's true. Though he reformed the religious structure of his country, he still remained a devout Catholic in private - it was all he'd known. Here's the lesson: He did all manner of butchery and MURDER to suit his own desire, killing many to achieve his own agenda. All the white, he convinced himself that his own will was also the will of God in order that he might satisfy his own need. Just because someone proclaims an endearing, enduring, perpetual allegiance and love for God, which DOES live btw, those proclamations don't necessarily carry any weight if the actions/inaction does not support the claim. He said one thing and did another. Don't be like Henry VIII!

Why didn't Henry just work out a way to make Henry Fitzroy legitimate and be done with it.

Was there any way?

Well, that would've just postponed things r311. He died in 1536. But it is true that everyone started playing fast and loose with the Bastard rules later on. Both Mary and Elizabeth were bastardized, and yet both wound up in the succession.

You know, if it had been some English rose, everything might have worked out differently. But with the political situation, especially with the Catholic Church, and the Holy Roman Emperor (Katherine's nephew) etc. Anne walked into a buzzsaw. She was sympathetic to the Protestants and saw the corruption of the Church up close due to people like Cardinal Wolsley. She was reading "forbidden texts" about the Protestant Reformation, and she saw a way around the Catholic Church's intransigence by persuading Henry to start his own Church and fuck the Pope. Problem was Katherine was a very popular Queen. She was engaging in political schemes to block all Henry's efforts.

wait, you're not thinking Henry VIII was some reformer before all the mess with Anne Boleyn, are you r314? He actually wrote a treatise against Martin Luther (or at least cowrote with Thomas More). It's actually how he and all subsequent English monarch got the title Defender of the Faith, ironically. That was a title given to him by the Pope. Only when he decided to ditch the old wife did he start getting really interested in these protestants and what they were saying. Not sure about Anne. She may have been sincere or opportunist about religion. Certainly it was in her interest likewise to start taking a serious interest in this Reformation thing.

R311 Henry was not about to leave a civil war for the crown upon his death, his ego wouldn't afford for it, and he was smart and shrewd enough to know any claim by a bastard would be contested. Hell Elizabeth was technically considered a bastard because her mothers wedding wasn't acknowledged by the Pope.

Henry was raised on the stories of the cousins war in the War of the Roses, and wasn't going to have any of that as his legacy.

Ironic that he was brought up to be a Cardinal, his paternal grandmother thought her Harry would be in the church he broke with when they wouldn't give him the divorce he wanted.

What's odd to think about is just how unusually stable everything was for about 20 years. One King, One Queen, One Prime Minister, a stable council, and I believe steadily increasing prosperity. After the chaos of the Wars of the Roses everyone around 1530 must have been thinking, yeah, this is fine. We're well past the crazy. Little did they know...

Henry, Mary and Elizabeth were a ruthless bloody lot. Henry VII and Edward not so much. Mary was also incompetent.

Henry VII was pretty ruthless. For instance, he locked up one of his wife's nephews for 14 years before chopping off his head.

They were all ruthless.

Henry VII was most likely to have killed his wife's brothers.

Edward iV had his own brother executed, but allowed him to chose the manner of death. He was drowned in a barrel of malmsey wine.

Henry VIII allowed Thomas More to burn heretics. He had his elderly aunt butchered to death on the Tower Green.

I haven't gone through this whole thread, but there's a great podcast called Noble Blood, that goes though various historical murders and deaths involving royal famlies. The latest group are six, 30 minutes episodes on each of Henry VIII's wives. Each includes backstories I'd never known before.

Highly recommended.

While various English kings were violent, the Tudors took it to new heights. There was so much religious strife that that slaughtering between catholics and protestants was massive

[quote]Henry, Mary and Elizabeth were a ruthless bloody lot.

They pale in comparison to Big Liz. And it will only get worse when her fredo son comes to power. History will prove The Windsor Family took organized crime to new heights.

R320 Edward IV's brother had betrayed him openly several times (and promised he never would again) before he killed him.

*coughs in Richard III*

Margaret Pole was an elderly second cousin, not an aunt.

Yes, the Queen with her offshore accounts, and now shielding her repulsive son behind her skirts. She should read up on how the Tudors took care of its unruly family members.

If the Windsors were as ruthless as the Tudors, William would be arranging for his embarrassing uncle Andrew to have a "heart attack".

She was well read.

R326 and you know who would've been destroyed after the Vanity Fair piece.

Sorry..Anne of Cleaves fan. She managed to keep her head and ended up a relatively independent woman with a place in society.

Katherine Parr was also an intelligent and interesting woman, too much so for her times. She had strong opinions on theology, and at one point, was accused of heresy. She got out of it by apologizing and promising to keep to the royal company line, and stop trying to change Henry's mind about religious issues.

She was married four times. Her fist two husbands were older men who gave her no children, and basically used her as a caretaker. Henry was another of the same, but of course she couldn't turn him down, he was the fucking king! After he died, she finally married the man she loved, and of course he turned out to be a dirtbag, and it's entirely possible she was a virgin at her 4th wedding! And she died shortly after giving birth to her first child, by her dirtbag fourth husband. She'd have been better off doing what Anne of Cleves did, give up on men.

Anne of Cleves outlived all the other wives. Because she didn’t fight the divorce, Henry VIII have her two palaces and a stipend.

Henry VIII was basically impotent by the time Anne of Cleves came around. It’s doubtful he had sex with any of his last three wives

R332 there was at least one pregnancy scare with Catherine Howard

For Christ's sake Anne of Cleves was NEVER DIVORCED! No consummation = annulment!

r332 - after studying the Tudors extensively - I think Katherine Howard was doing 'something' with Henry. Something that could be interpreted as leading to pregnancy. Otherwise, why was she so desperate to get pregnant by her lover? She was experienced for her age and knew she needed cover, however transparent.

The paternity of a healthy baby boy would not have been seriously questioned … by anyone … least of all by Henry himself.

None of you liked the clever, little song about the ghost of Anne Boleyn.

So all I can say is, fuck you stodgy cunts!

I really prefer this, R336.

R337 I think that song was designed to drive people insane...quickly. Like the barber bug.

It's Cockney or faux Cockney, R338.

Henry VIII would never have executed Anne of Cleves, and though not exactly 100% sure of this AC (and her handlers/supporters) were sure enough.

John III, Duke of Cleves was one of the most powerful monarchs in Europe at the time. More to the point the duke was well liked and seen as a moderate rational person and ruler. Henry VIII had gotten away with badly treating and putting away Catherine of Aragon; but he didn't outright murder the Spanish princess. Had Henry tried to pull an Anne Boleyn with Anne of Cleves it would have meant war not just with Cleves but all of Europe would have had their back.

By 1540 Henry VIII was morbidly obese, stank, and suffered from various health issues including a long festering leg wound that was draining pus. The king was nearly 50 years old , and largely impotent. It was assumed by his ministers and advisors that marriage to a young thing would revive the king to perform, but Anne of Cleves didn't move HM in that direction. If it wasn't for his ministers pushing for another heir Henry likely wouldn't have married AC at all.

For her part Anne and her supporters summed up lay of the land. She did not like Henry VIII nor particularly want to be his wife, but there really weren't many ways out. Had marriage been merely annulled and AC sent back to Cleves as so much damaged goods it would have meant humiliation. Just as with Catherine of Aragon many likely would believe AC was still a maid, that would have lowered her value on marriage market.

Anne of Cleves knew her husband had a temper, but she also knew best way to get anything out of the king (and keep one's head) was to agree with what he wanted. AC got her marriage annulled, turned from the king's wife into his "sister", received a very generous severance package (so much so that Edward VI complained that keeping up Anne of Cleves was causing financial hardship on royal purse), and was granted precedence not far below a queen of England.

AC lived long as she did in part likely to good genetics, but also she avoided the number one cause of death for females at that time; pregnancy and childbirth.

R287

Jane Seymour worked very hard both before becoming queen and after to effect a reconciliation between Henry VIII and Princess Mary; which largely was done. Letters survive in archives from Princess Mary to her step-mother thanking her for her efforts on that score.

Queen Jane got Mary to submit to Henry's will by signing the oath acknowledging the king as head of CofE, her mother's marriage invalid and as consequence herself a bastard. As history shows time and time again Henry VIII was happy and even quite generous when people stroked his ego by giving him what he wanted. Catherine of Aragon was treated very harshly because she refused to agree to her husband's wishes, and her daughter Mary took after mother in temperament. Mary blamed Henry for her mother's death and let the king know it in many ways; something HM was not having.

Yes, it was not until Catherine Parr that both Mary and Elizabeth were restored to the succession. Henry's sixth wife likely made him see sense; he was old and not likely to have any more children so best to play the hand as it was dealt.

Prince Edward was borne a healthy enough infant, but as time went on there were doubts about his health. Leaving fate of Tudor dynasty and English crown to one wee lad was very risky. Henry VIII only became monarch because his older brother died, so there was that precedent.

I loved Jane Seymour in Dr. Quinn: Medicine Woman. Good for her having a life after Henry!

Henry VIII primarily married Anne of Cleves to form a political alliance with the protestant-leaning Germans, to forge an alliance against Catholic France/Spain. Cromwell was a key player in setting up this alliance via marriage.

Historical evidence indicates that Anne herself preferred not to return to Cleves. Her brother had been a bully to her and she may have been physically abused as well.

Bullying of women both high and low was practiced frequently and inflicted no harm on public opinion.

That Anne of Cleves was treated badly by her brother wouldn't shock one at all. Her decision to remain in England as sister to Henry VIII was a very wise move.

Within limits Anne of Cleves achieved something rare for women of that time; in many ways she was femme sole, a single woman who was not under direct control of a husband. AC has buckets of money, her own palaces and precedence at court, all without the bother of having Henry VIII or anyone else as a husband who in theory would have been her lord and master.

Yes, Anne of Cleves had to answer to her "brother" Henry VIII, but he largely left her alone, and she wisely didn't give HM or anyone else ammunition.

Did Henry have syphilis or was he just mad?

R344 Yes, and there is historical evidence indicating Anne loved to hold parties and dinners, and spent vast sums on clothing and jewels. She lived a good life, and did so, until Henry died.

Who knows? There were many diseases running rampant through England at that time.

Depending upon who you believe Henry VIII's reproductive woes (getting of children) could be put down to the pox, or Kell's disease.

Court physicians knew very well about syphilis, and yet no mention of any obvious symptoms or signs are mentioned in connection with the king.

Syphilis is a New World disease and was introduced to Europe in the late 1400's. The first outbreak in Italy was in the 1490's. Would not have so wide-spread in England during Henry's reign.

Historical evidence indicates that Henry did not have a lot of lovers/mistresses. He was rather faithful to Anne Boleyn, taking her cousin (encouraged by Anne) as his mistress.

His risk of syphilis would have been very low based on these two facts.

He wasn't mentally ill - he was a psychopath.

I'd have taken Anne of Cleves' deal before he finished the sentence. In a world of Queens, be a Cleves.

"The former queen received a generous settlement, including Richmond Palace, and Hever Castle, home of Henry's former in-laws, the Boleyns. Anne of Cleves House, in Lewes, East Sussex, is just one of many properties she owned; she never lived there. Henry and Anne became good friends—she was an honorary member of the King's family and was referred to as "the King's Beloved Sister". She was invited to court often and, out of gratitude for her not contesting the annulment, Henry decreed that she would be given precedence over all women in England save his own wife and daughters.

On 4 August 1553, Anne wrote to Mary I to congratulate her on her marriage to Philip of Spain. On 28 September 1553, when Mary left St James's Palace for Whitehall, she was accompanied by her sister Elizabeth and Anne of Cleves. Anne also took part in Mary I's coronation procession, and may have been present at her coronation at Westminster Abbey. These were her last public appearances. As the new queen was a strict Catholic, Anne yet again changed religion, now becoming a Roman Catholic.

After her arrival as the King's bride, Anne never left England. Despite occasional feelings of homesickness, Anne was generally content in England and was described by Holinshed as "a ladie of right commendable regards, courteous, gentle, a good housekeeper and verie bountifull to her servants.

She left some money to her servants and asked Mary and Elizabeth to employ them in their households. She was remembered by everyone who served her as a particularly generous and easy-going mistress.

love all the love for Anne of Cleves. Always thought she was the one that won the lottery. Katherine Parr could've, but she was in love with that jackass Thomas Seymour and blew it.

So what was the real deal with Henry's troubles getting a male heir? I thought it had something to do with either the syphilis or some other malady that Henry had. Was it just fate that Henry's girls were healthy and the boys either never made it out of the womb alive or died young? What's the story there?

R351 no one can say for certain since it'd be near impossible to test his DNA. There are some theories he had a condition but impossible to prove. Could just be dumb luck. My grandparents had 6 girls before my uncle came along.

Yeah, Anne won the Tudor Lottery, she succeeded in freeing herself from both Henry AND her brother!

Because normally, when a noblewoman's marriage was annulled, she was sent back to her family, and was back under their total control and was typically married off against her will again, as soon as another marriage could be arranged. So the business about "the King's sister" may not have been the social formality we assume, it may have been a public declaration that she was to be considered under the authority of her "brother" King Henry, and not under the authority of her brother the Duke of Cleves. Which was a huge win for her, as Henry gave her money of her own and didn't force her into another marriage. Yeah, she got a sweet deal, the sweetest of her times!

R350 I'm sure even some of her contemporaries thought Anne of Cleves got a good deal, but probably kept their traps shut because they liked their necks intact.

The Kell protein theory regarding Henry's difficulty having male heirs doesn't hold up to science. Too lazy to write that all up but you can google search it.

In general female fetuses and infants are more hardy than males. This make sense in nature as you don't need many males since one can impregnate many females.

Reasons for Henry's woes in getting a male heir (or many viable ones for that matter) are varied and legion.

Much of it probably could be laid down to same issues everywhere else; poor to ignorant pre-natal healthcare, childbirth and newborn/child care.

Women died from child bed fever by the scores then, and infant mortality rates were astronomical. Then there were things medicine just didn't understand then such as eclampsia, diabetes, proper nutrition, etc....

Homes both royal or otherwise were infested with vermin (lice, fleas, rats, mice.....), and for that matter so where many persons of all ranks in society. Filth was everywhere, hand washing after going to the toilet was non existent.

One reason monarchs and nobles needed so many homes was that sooner or later one became so over run with waste, filth and vermin it needed clearing out on an industrial scale (for the time). So household move to another place so servants could get on with things....

I really do think it's luck of the draw. I don't know that there has to be some big "REASON" why Henry couldn't have a son with Catharine of Aragon. In fact he did. Over and over actually, but they all died in infancy or stillbirth or in childbirth. Actually he almost had a son with Anne Boleyn, but again, stillbirth.

Read a great book once, I think called the Royal Facts of Life. The Hapsburgs won that big lottery. For whatever reason, they could pump out the kids and not just watch them die in infancy? Not sure why, it just kind of happened. But for a few hundred years it was Hapsburg after Hapsburg after Hapsburg, while the Tudors, the Stuarts, the Valois were always hanging by a thread. Who knows why?

" ....but, Elizabeth was yours, she's yours....SHE'S A TUDOR! Get yourself a son on that sweet, pale girl IF YOU CAN, but Elizabeth SHALL reign after you! ELIZABETH!!!! Child of Anne, the whore and Henry, the blood-stained lech SHALL BE QUEEN!!!! And my blood will have been well spent! "

Actually, the Plantagenets were pretty good too. If the English could have sat down and thought this whole thing through, keeping the Plantagentets might not have been a bat choice. There was always a spare Plantagenet hanging around. Could have avoided a lot of crazy.

heh, bad choice, not bat choice, but I am kind of laughing about it.

During Henry's reign the remaining Plantagenets were the De Pole family. Henry made it his mission to extinguish the surviving Plantagenets.

Henry had Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury , daughter of Clarence of York (brother of Richard III and Edward IV) at age 67, butchered to pieces on the Tower Green; she refused to put her head on the block as she was innocent of treason. The executioner chased her and hacked at her until she died.

Her son, Henry Pole, 1st Baron Montagu, was murdered by Henry a few years prior on trumped up charges of treason.

After his mother Margaret's death, her son Geoffrey went into exile. He returned to England upon the accession of Mary Tudor.

Margaret's other son, Reginald Pole, became a Cardinal while in exile in Italy and survived Henry.

but were they really the last Plantagenets r362, cause damn, there were A LOT of Plantagenets once upon a time?

But it was gross what he did to Margaret.

Here is an article on the Kell antigen.

r49, Philip of Spain was not gay. Where did you get that from. He just didn't Like Mary Tudor.

His first wife was Maria of Portugal who died given birth to Don Carlos - he was promised to Isabelle Valois who Phillip took for himself - son went kind of crazy. There is an opera about this. 2nd Wife - Mary Tudor - no kids 3rd wife - Isabelle Valois (Queen Margot older sister) - teen wife died at 23 - 2 daughters (2 miscarriages) 4th wife Anna of Austria - 3 sons and daughter all died young, and Phillip III who succeeded him

yeah, I know it's Datalounge, but come on, bitch, no gay with Phillip II.

I just ready about Mary's phantom pregnancy.

yeah, god was very cruel to Mary r367,come on, a pregnancy was actually a tumor? damn?

R362

Reginald Pole died on same day as "Bloody" Queen Mary, though in his case it was from influenza that was epidemic at the time.

R368

Mary's first pregnancy likely was phantom, brought on by her strong wish to be so. The second yes, was likely ovarian cysts and or uterine cancer.

Ironically another scandalous pregnancy that was actually cancer would shake an English royal court; this time young Queen Victoria, and Lady Flora Hastings.

More:

Reginald Pole had a great beard. He was also apparently a reformer in spirit but couldn't get anyone in the church or government to go along with him. He disagreed with his cousin's burning people and was the last Catholic archbishop of Canterbury. Probably a gay.

The Plantagenets killed each other off. By the end of the War if the Roses, there were no legitimate male Plantagenet heirs, they were all dead and mostly at the hands of their relatives.

The Tudors died out through lack of reproduction, but not before killing the last Plantagenets. It was a familt tradition.

Actually Henry VII offed the last legitimate Plantagenet heir when he had Edward IV's nephew's head chopped off. Henry's claim to the throne was slim at best so there was no way he was going to allow that potential rival to live.

Henry's problems were to avenge our death!!!!

Well, since Henry's papa, Henry VII, most likely killed them, not much to avenge, eh.

There was still a 'White Rose' heir under Elizabeth - the earl of Huntingdon, who was thoroughly loyal and led a blameless career in royal service.

Henry VIII's problems getting a male heir were just bad luck and shouldn't have been a surprise. His nephew James V of Scots left just a female heir; two successive kings of France, including his brother-in-law, lacked male heirs and his great rival Francis I got three sons out of infancy, but only one was left when he died, Henry's godson Henri II. He in turn had a huge family, with four sons getting out of infancy, but none of them (Francis II, Charles IX, Henri III and Elizbeth's suitor the Duke of Anjou) managed a son between them. The Hapsburgs themselves only just got through the 16th century: Philip II had to marry four times to get a viable male heir and o Emperor Maximilian II's multiple sons produced not a single grandson and they had to go over to his cousin'line for an heir.

Once again, please feel free to call me Rose... but it seems like childbirth was a beast for these women and getting a child out of infancy was a Herculean effort back then. Or was this just a problem due to the years of inbreeding of these royals? Royal blood, but weak genes due to years of cousin fucking etc. etc. etc.

As far as Medicine, most of Europe was still in the Dark ages. Lots of women died in childbirth or shortly after and a lot of babies never made it beyond childhood. Lots of sanitation issues too. Clean water, rodent infestations, etc. And the pressure on Anne or Katherine before her, to present the King with a son was intense. Those women would is carry then a few weeks or months later be regnant again. Their bodies had no chance to recover.

Breech birth, inappropriate tugging of the infant, hemorrhage, retained placenta, bacterial infections leading to sepsis - among the common manners of death for new mothers before the development of antibiotics/modern medicine.

Eleanor of Aquitaine had 10 children, makes her appear genetically superhuman to survive all these births.

It actually seemed easier in the Middle Ages - there is some suggestion that early modern medical practices put both mother and child at risk. As well as Eleanor of Aquitaine, Eleanor of Provence, Eleanor of Castile, Philippa of Hainaut and Elizabeth Woodville all had big families, as did Henry IV's wife Mary Bohun, who died before he became king. Isabella of Angouleme and Margaret of France didn't do badly in shorter periods of time. Did a medieval English queen die in childbirth before Elizabeth of York, the first Tudor queen?

"but it seems like childbirth was a beast for these women and getting a child out of infancy was a Herculean effort back then. Or was this just a problem due to the years of inbreeding of these royals?"

No, medicine was primitive in those days, and if a physician attended a woman in labor he was likely to do more harm than good. Midwives may actually have washed their hands, before sticking their hands in there.

Henry was under more pressure than most kings to produce a healthy son, because most kings had brothers and nephews and male cousins to spare, while Henry did not. He was painfully short on male relatives, due to the War of the Roses and the rough politics of the era before and after that killing them all off. There was no "spare", except Princess/Lady Mary, and nobody seems to have taken her role as a spare seriously, especially not Henry.

No, it was not easier to safely give birth in the Medieval Period. There was no knowledge of virus/bacterial infections and little attention paid to hand washing/sanitation. Every time those doctor's dirty hands went into the vagina, there was great risk of spreading germs. Most women went into pregnancy already malnourished and had little access to adequate nutrition. Maternal mortality was very high.

Maternal mortality remains high in many impoverished areas. I did a rotation in a poor area in Africa. We had a patient with an ectopic pregnancy who was bleeding severely. Sadly, we did not have any blood to transfuse and she died. Ether (very flammable) was used as the anesthesia! It was about 100 degrees in the operating theatre. This is the only time in my medical career where I felt faint. Just a terrible situation. This is how African women continue to die, as did women back in medieval times.

The suggestion is, R382, that specific practices developed among the elite that increased the already hazardous risks of pregnancy in the 16th century, not that things were hunky-dory before.

Except Henry wasn't in an unusual position, R381 - most of the major monarchies and principalities of his time were in exactly the same situation and the throne had to go via a female - Scotland, Burgundy Spain, Hungary, Bohemia. In France, where females couldn't inherit, the throne bounced around between fairly distant cousins after the deaths of Charles VIII, Louis XII and Henri III. Henry's situation was actually the norm. Arguably, he should have made the best of it and married Mary to a safe husband who could have been king alongside her (Reginald Pole at that point would have been a good candidate), while still having the chance of a male heir if Katherine of Aragon died soon enough, which she actually did.

Henry had his nephew JAmes Stewart.

But Henry didn't want a stammerer like Jimmy Stewart on the throne of England.

R383, the wealthy were more like to call in doctors to attend women in labor, which was a risk in itself. Doctors were filthy, a huge risk in and of itself, probably more so than midwives, although of course little about the midwifery was recorded so what do we know. But the doctors of Henry's day were like today's doctors of medicine, more keen to try some risky intervention, where a midwife will assist the natural birthing process.

Now, stop reading here, if you have a low squick threshold!! What a doctor could do and a midwife could not, and the reason the wealthy wanted them around, was to save either the mother or the child, by brutal methods. If it was clear that either the mother or child was doomed, if not both, they could either perform a C-section that would kill the mother if she wasn't already dead, or stick dirty tools into the vag and cut a dead fetus to bits, if the mother couldn't push the dead fetus out herself. This would of course probably kill the mother in a few days time, but when the stakes were as high as saving a queen or an heir, then absolutely everything was done. Of course, the doctors should have taken direction from the midwives, and stayed away until there were no options except life-or-death butchery, but of course the highly educated male doctors weren't going to let some mere woman run things.

R385

No, he didn't.

Henry VIII expressly and explicitly disinherited his sister Margaret Tudor, Queen Consort of Scots, and her heirs from the succession.

In the ultimate Hail Mary move Henry must have assumed, presumed, wished, wanted..... his son, and or either of his two daughters (belatedly restored to the succession) would marry and breed legal heirs, it didn't happen.

Edward VI died while still young. Queen Mary was too old and had other health issues by time she finally inherited. Elizabeth for reasons only she alone knew never married and had children.

After it became clear Elizabeth would never marry and breed heirs a group of her ministers met in secret far from court to draw up a short list of potential next monarchs. This had to be so because to discuss the succession without monarch's consent was treason, they all could have swung or had their heads chopped off... Said list included James V of Scotland, but others distantly related to the Tudor family that Henry didn't murder or otherwise dispose of, and others.

Elizabeth for her part strung along several potential heirs including James V the way she handled most everything else. Yes, in the morning. No, in the afternoon, and maybe by evening. Only to start things all over again.

Yes, Margaret Tudor's great grandson had been technically disqualified by Henry VIII's actions (the king had wrung out of parliament the right to name his own successors, something they regretted and never let totally happen again), but there was more going on in the background.

Everyone wanted a smooth uncontested succession. War of the Roses and how Tudors came to power in first place wasn't totally forgotten. Neither was more recent history of Queen Jane Grey, and of course murder of Mary, Queen of Scots.

By now England was settled on a path to permanently being a Protestant nation, least far as those in power saw things. They had resisted Mary I in not just restoring RC church to England, but in giving back all the lands and other loot taken from the church and given, well to themselves.

These same forces brought about the murder of Mary, Queen of Scots for pretty much same reasons. So it was clear what parliament wanted was a confirmed Protestant as new monarch who wouldn't rock that boat. James V was never explicitly declared heir, but according to what version of events one believes his name was whispered to Elizabeth on her deathbed, and she consented.

Ironically for all the hate Henry VIII had towards his sister, her heirs (with a few detours including through Bohemia and Hanover) sit on throne today.

Elizabeth Stuart, Queen of Bohemia , daughter of James VI and I, King of Scotland, England, and Ireland. Also mother of Electress Sophia of Hanover from which all legitimate heirs are in line of succession to British monarchy.

That explains the horsey Windsor faces...Elizabeth Stuart could have starred in Sex in the City with her equine features.

Short list of sucessors to Elizabeth I, if she did not breed legitimate heirs.

Reading it you can see why Mary, Queen of Scots eventually had to go; especially after landing in England after escaping imprisonment in Scotland (one of the most stupidest moves in history).

Letting the Queen of Scots live while it was clear Elizabeth was past baby making years was dangerous, and the longer both lived meant someone had to go.

It really is amazing for all the bloodshed, plots, stratagems and intrigues, the Tudor dynasty (via male line) died out due to one woman refusing to do her duty. Bet Henry VIII was spinning in his grave.....

Even the so called "best physicians" were very primitive, bleeding people to get rid of the "bad humors." The Catholic church was suspicious of science and scholars and considered it witchcraft an going against "God's will" if unorthodox methods were proposed. The fact is some of the best science and the best medical treatments, medicines, etc. came from the Middle East and were discovered through the crusades. But of course these were Muslims. Women who were healers who used herbs were reluctantly approved but even they made the ruling classes uneasy and they were quick to be accused of witchcraft.

I wonder if Elizabeth I ever thought she was barren because of her bout with smallpox?

Growing up Elizabeth had a ring side seat to the worst that was lot of girls/women in that era.

Her mother was stripped of her rank and titles, named a common whore, imprisoned and beheaded.

One step-mother died from child bed fever.

Another step-mother became her father's sister

Elizabeth watched as Katherine Seymour was dragged away screaming for her life, was later imprisoned then executed for ironically actually doing many of the crimes Anne Boleyn was accused.

Her final step-mother Katherine Parr died of child bed fever.

Then there were the various ladies in her family (distant or close) and or noblewomen who were killed by her father (Margaret Pole....). Then finally the sad tale of Lady Jane Grey, a young woman forced into a marriage she didn't want, and onto a throne she had no desire for, that escapade cost Queen Jane her head.

All and all from that alone why would any woman who manage to outlive and maneuver various plots (including by her own sister) to kill her off marry anyone?

Elizabeth was in a unique position; she did the telling, and there was no one to tell her what to do. In an age when wife beating was common and accepted, along with adultery by men as "boys will be boys...", why would any woman who could not choose otherwise.

Then you had to consider several real other issues.

First and foremost Elizabeth was still legally a bastard. Unlike Mary I who promptly repealed the act naming herself so soon upon coming to the throne, Elizabeth never took such action. Her sole claim to the throne was that Henry VIII left it to her in his will. Elizabeth might have feared (a very real possibility) of once married her husband scheming with others to sideline the queen, and perhaps even do away with her.

Once Elizabeth had married and given birth to an heir or even a spare or two her death wouldn't be a huge deal. A husband could wrangle himself named as regent to rule until his children came of age. Getting rid of or sidelining Elizabeth wouldn't be difficult, just keep getting her pregnant . Nature along with what passed for medical care then could take care of the rest.

Elizabeth was 25 when she inherited, and lived until aged 69, of course no one could have predicted such a long life. However like Anne of Cleves it is likely not ever being pregnant nor going through childbirth made that long life possible.

Had Mary Stuart bided her time instead of demanding Elizabeth name her successor a hot minute after landing in Scotland, her life would have been much different. But she thought with her pussy instead of her head, and that's why she lost it.

Poor wives

R395

Mary, Queen of Scots life was forfeit moment she landed on English soil. Though initially Elizabeth toyed with the idea of backing her royal cousin's restoration to Scottish throne, HM never bothered.

To her at first amazement, Mary, Queen of Scots was basically put under house arrest. She would remain captive for nearly 20 years in England before Elizabeth (urged or tricked by her ministers) consented to the judicial murder of her royal cousin.

This what she looks like if she was alive today....

Elizabeth made a number of apparently quite serious attempts to send Mary back to Scotland, either to be tried there or else brought into the system somehow as notional joint ruler with her son (probably in the Juana the Mad model, confined in a castle somewhere), but the Scots always said no - even James VI, when he was old enough, said - no way do I want the hassle. She couldn't be allowed to swan about in England and the alternative, send her on to France or Spain, was unthinkable. Elizabeth held back from executing her for as long as she could, but the pressure from her minister, parliament and the country at large wore her down. Despite all the problems, Elizabeth clearly viewed the Stuarts as next in line and, while never formally acknowledging this, she also firmly opposed any attempts to exclude them or fix the succession elsewhere.

I thought Elizabeth acknowledged James as her successor? Also Mary. I thought she told Mary that she needed to sit the fuck down because she was obviously next and just be patient. If not for herself for her son. But Mary was plotting and scheming from Day one. In fact, think about it. There is a lot about the character in Game of Thrones, Daenarys Targaryen who thought she could come back and be queen just like that that was probably taken from Mary of Scotland. All I'm saying is that if you want a modern parallel you can look at that Character and see similarities.

Wasn't it even deeper than James not wanting the hassle -- that he had been raised to view his mother and her Catholic religion with contempt? Mary made a lot of bad decisions, but can you imagine being separated from your child when he was a toddler and then having your enemies raise him to hate you.

Was Elizabeth really a virgin? She had certain gentleman callers to attend to her needs, didn't she?

James must not have really hated his mother. He had her body exhumed and reburied at Westminster.

Let's bring it back to me. I made the "French hood" a thing in England. One of history's first influencers.

Did he have her head sewn back on?

Mary Queen of Scots was a fucking idiot when it came to politics. She didn't understand the difference between titular authority and real power, she didn't realize she had to persuade her subjects, she didn't understand Scotland or give a rat's ass about it, she didn't have a clue about the politics of royal marriage, and when the crunch came, she didn't know who her allies were. If she'd had the sense to flee to France instead of England she'd have kept her head, and possibly her throne! She actually expected a protestant queen to defeat her protestant enemies, and restore her Catholic throne!

Elizabeth must have been shaking her head the whole time, thinking "This idiot is my next of kin?".

He didn't hate her, R403, but he never knew her. While alive, she was nothing but a problem as he emerged into adulthood. She was a queen and his mother, but a Catholic and a whole sack of trouble - and potentially put his claim to the English throne at risk. However, once safely dead, she was nonetheless the link that brought him to the English throne and could be safely honoured.

Mary Stuart was essentially fucked the moment her first husband, Francis, died. She was raised as a pampered French princess and trained to be the consort of a king, not a ruler on her own. Like R405 said, she knew nothing about Scotland, or politics. She thought by having a crown on her head that people would just do what she said. Elizabeth had the benefit of seeing how tenuous a grip on power can be.

Mary QOS last saw her son when he was 10 months old. She was only ever an idea to him.

in fairness, Scotland was a fucking nightmare, filled with murderous and in some cases psychopathic Lairds, plus the joy of religious fanatics running all over the place. It would have been a huge pain in the ass for any ruler, but Mary just wasn't the one. Coming from the RELATIVE security of the French court, I don't think she was prepared for the madness. You learn quickly or die in the 16th Century.

and yeah, the Tudor kids, at least the girls, had a weird advantage. They saw how quickly power could evaporate. How you could be a beloved princess one day, and suddenly everyone is treating you like garbage the next day. Made for a very unhappy childhood, but probably the best education in actual power that any royal could hope for.

R399

Agree with much of what you have said, but Elizabeth never wanted Mary, Queen of Scots dead. HM greatly feared both earthly and heavenly repercussions from killing an anointed sovereign. Former was that in eyes of world (especially royal courts of Europe) killing of a monarch or any royal for that matter was a very serious thing. Under the unwritten rules that governed relations between monarchs one sovereign only had the rights to the blood of another under very strict circumstances that would stand up in "open court" as it were. Elizabeth was queen, so no matter how Mary, Queen of Scots died and by whose hand or method she would be held responsible. As for the latter Elizabeth greatly feared that killing Mary, Queen of Scots would damn her mortal soul before God.

After all if sovereigns were "sons (or daughters) of Heaven" killing one was a direct attack on God. This was same fears about murder of Charles I, and Louis XVI, which while obviously bothered some, those events still happened regardless.

Elizabeth I to her dying day was angry at her ministers for Mary's death, and swore she was duped into signing her cousin's death warrant. Elizabeth's version of things was that she only consented to Mary's death as a weapon to use in keep the Scottish queen in line. That is the warrant was never to be unsealed and acted upon; but having been tried and convicted it could be at any point in future. So if there had been any more plots against Elizabeth there wouldn't have been a need for another trial.... As she lay dying 'Elizabeth stated two things she most regretted in her life was signing the death warrants for Robert Devereux and Mary, Queen of Scots.

Elizabeth never wholly forgave those she held responsible for Mary's death, this up until the day they or she died.

I do think Elizabeth was bullshitting on a profound level there r412. I think she knew what she did, and wanted desperately to blame somebody else.

But that said, I largely agree with you. It was actually a crime for a Queen to kill another Queen, there was not actual jurisdiction there. It was a tangled mess and she knew she was setting a very dangerous precedent. By their own thinking, they had no jurisdiction over Mary, but they had to do something, and they did this. It was a mess, and I think Elizabeth recognized the mess, and chose to pretend to herself and everyone else that it wasn't really her doing.

R401

Mary, Queen of Scots didn't know it; but by ten or so years into her imprisonment in England, her son James was firmly on side of Elizabeth I, this no doubt largely brought about by HM dangling succession of her throne before the king of Scotland.

James had no need of his mother, he never really knew her, and all that he did know came via his handlers/ministers who raised him after Mary was removed. In short other than fact she was his mother (and any natural affection that goes with that fact) James had more practical matters to worry about. He wasn't a Catholic, and had no interest in returning Scotland to the "old religion", nor felt any need to share a throne with his mother that was wholly his already.

R400

Elizabeth I and Mary, Queen of Scots never met face to face. Nor did Elizabeth ever outright promise to name Mary as her heir. Link below has things pretty much laid out. Also suggest Antonia Fraser's book on Mary, Queen of Scots.

R405

Yes, after her body was autopsied (why I don't know), head of Mary, Queen of Scots was sewn back onto her body as part of preparation for burial. Her entrails were removed and buried separately within Fotheringhay Castle which was Mary's final resting place until her son had the remains removed.

R403

James wanted the two women responsible for him being king of Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland buried together. Thus he ordered Mary's remains removed from Fotheringhay Castle and reburied at Westminster Abbey in a chapel across from Elizabeth I. See link below.

"Thus he ordered Mary's remains removed from Fotheringhay Castle and reburied at Westminster Abbey in a chapel across from Elizabeth I. "

I visited Westminster Abbey when I was young, and noted that Mary had a much more ostentatious tomb than Elizabeth. James was a good son in that respect.

heh, also, though r415. aren't about a dozen people buried on top of each other in "Mary's" tomb. Not sure, it's been quite a few years.

I watched one season of CW's Reign and couldn't stand it. I wish one of the cable networks would do something with Mary QOS. She sounds like a good hot mess.

I guess I wasn't Henry VIII's favorite wife.

How it all went down; the execution of Mary, Queen of Scots....

Basically ever the cunning and shrewd Elizabeth set things up so no matter how or when the Queen of Scots died she could claim ignorance.

Elizabeth had delayed signing Mary's death warrant long as she could (her ministers worried she wouldn't do so at all), but in end she had no choice as it was her job. Elizabeth had taken an oath to uphold the laws of her realm and that meant affixing her consent on legally valid death warrants.

After she signed Mary's death warrant Elizabeth handed the sealed document to her secretary, William Davison telling him to hold on to the thing, long story short he didn't. Warrant was then unsealed and acted upon with all due haste.

As for James VI, we have this:

quote

Around the same time Elizabeth signed the warrant, she sent a letter to James VI. James had requested that his mother be sent into the neutral custody of a foreign prince. In her response, Elizabeth asked if James thought her "so mad to trust my own life in another's hand and send it out of my own?,,36 She also refers to the "absurdity of such an offer.,,37 In this letter, Elizabeth placed the focus on James's offer rather than on the circumstances surrounding Mary at the present time. She did not say she was unwilling to give Mary to a neutral prince because she was either considering signing the execution warrant or had already done so. Elizabeth withheld from James any more of a response than was necessary. It seemed that Elizabeth intentionally focused this letter's content on James's request to divert attention from her intention to sign Mary's death warrant.

After Mary's execution, Elizabeth wrote another letter to James. Elizabeth referred to Mary's execution as a "miserable accident which (far contrary to my meaning) hath befallen.,,38 Elizabeth claimed innocence in calling for Mary's execution, but what she wrote next left a sense of doubt as to her innocence in the matter. She told James that she had "now sent this kinsman of mine ... to instruct you truly of that which is too irksome for my pen to tell you.'d9 While one may infer that Elizabeth sent a kinsman to explain the actual happenings of Mary's execution, /quote

"Talula" by Tori Amos references Anne:

"ran into the Henchman that severed Anne Boleyn he did it right quickly, a merciful man she said one plus one is two, but Henry said that it was three so it was, here I am..."

yeah, that was clearly of and by teenage girls, which, fine, but yeah, I would like to see a series that really capture Mary Queen of Scots. You do have to get into the long years in France. They are a huge part of the story, and of course all the drama happens in Scotland, so most movies just want to skip ahead to that.

Elizabeth I great a monarch as she was (or at least era of her on throne) did not breed children. Queens who did not breed kings (or maybe ruling queens)rts often get short shift in terms of burial monuments. For some royal tombs/grave sites there are entire areas devoted to queens who didn't breed future rulers; Pantheon of Infantes at Royal Seat of San Lorenzo de El Escorial is one.

For those who have never been, and plan a trip to Spain highly recommend checking out El Escorial as any part of seeing Madrid.

James VI and I had the following inscribed on his mother's tomb at Westminster Abbey.

......sure and certain heiress to the crown of England while she lived: mother of James, most puissant sovereign of Great Britain…after she had been detained in custody for more or less twenty years, and had courageously and vigorously, (but vainly), fought against the obloquies of her foes, the mistrust of the faint-hearted, and the crafty devices of her mortal enemies, she was at last struck down by the axe (an unheard-of precedent, outrageous to royalty)… to James her son the hope of a kingdom and posterity, and to all who witnessed her unhappy murder an ensample of endurance…. Mistress of Scotland by law, of France by marriage, of England by expectation, thus blest, by a three-fold right, with a three-fold crown; happy, ah, only too happy, had she routed the tumult of war, and, even at a late hour, won over the neighbouring forces… here lies buried the daughter, bride and mother of kings. God grant that her sons, and all who are descended from her, may hereafter behold the cloudless days of eternity….

For mother he really never knew, James was giving his mother some of her own back. Between the magnificence of Mary's tomb plus the inscriptions it does seem the king was trying to make some amends. Elizabeth looking over from across the way must be spinning in her grave.

Yes, there are many others buried in Mary's tomb, but they nearly all are descended from the Queen of Scots and serve to remind of her place in the large Stuart clan that (again with some detours) still rules England to this day.

Elizabeth I lies alone because she died that way; leaving no heirs and was last of her family's line.

well he had a lot of amends to give r423. Bitch didn't lift a finger, didn't give fuck one while she was alive. Thanks for the tomb, bitch, now fuck off.

James was 21 when Mary was executed, he'd been titular king since he was shitting in his diapers, but I presume he hadn't done a lot of his own ruling at that point.

I also presume he didn't want his mother back. She was not only a stranger, she'd have felt entitled to his throne! I presume that's why he asked Elizabeth to give her over to a neutral party, he didn't want her back in Scotland making a shambles of his protestant rule and fucking things up like she always did.

well, I agree, r425, I suspect deep down he was fine with the execution. Removed a very complicated, tangled reason to not put him on the throne. For many, many, many people killing Mary was really the only reasonable solution to all of it.

R425, Mary had abdicated in James's favor; I don't think that's a decision she could revoke. No, she was gone for good.

I suspect she could very much have revoked that if she got back to Scotland, r427. If I were James, I would strongly suspect that too. Scotland was nuts, and very much up and down in terms of who was running things.

I haven't been in a while, but isn't Elizabeth in good company with her sister Mary at the Abbey?

R428

Mary was forced to abdicate in favor of her son James; and no; there are no "give backs" when you abdicate. Once that is done it is done.

Only way Mary would have been able to retake throne of Scotland was with a powerful (and successful) army at her back. She then would have needed same to keep that throne (an occupying force if you will) since her step-brother and any of the lairds along with others just didn't want her.

This likely is one of reasons why Elizabeth nor any other monarch at the time gave serious thought much less acted upon putting Mary back on throne. It would have involved a serious military undertaking and many troops permanently stationed in Scotland. Both are expensive in terms of money and man power, all for what? Scotland wasn't exactly brimming with wealth or resources that could make such efforts pay. Large reason France and England engaged and or otherwise engaged the place was for strategic reasons.

Will say it again; Mary's personal life may have been messed up; but in the long game she won. Her heirs rule England, not the Tudors, and while Elizabeth outlived her she died a spinster never knowing what it was like to be a full woman.

The 1971 film Mary, Queen of Scots remains best of a long line because aside from superb cast much of the screenplay is based upon actual letters between Elizabeth and Mary (still preserved today in archives of Parliament and elsewhere).

In the fictional meeting between Mary and Elizabeth the latter comes to inform her royal cousin to sign a confession and her life would be spared. Elizabeth further tells Mary that the document would be kept "quite safe" and only shown to select ministers if needed. Mary replies "no, you are the devil, you cannot tempt me...". Scottish queen further tells Elizabeth she will die a martyr to the true faith

After much going back and forth Mary finally tells Elizabeth that "yes, I have sinned most grievously in past, and am now paying for it, my throne, child, possessions have all been taken from me; but I am innocent of planning your death". She sums up "nothing you can do Madam can prevent my martyrdom, it is my destiny, just as it is yours to do the thing you most dread; to order the judicial murder of an anointed sovereign, it will torment you the rest of your days...". And of course Mary was right....

Before leaving room Elizabeth looks at Mary and says "if your head had been great as your heart, I would be the one in your place".

sorry, but of course there are give backs if the political situation changes, r430. Mary, free and on the scene, could very much have won over the catholic segment of the population, and then any Protestants who were unhappy with the current regime. It was a mess, and would continue to be a mess, and each Laird would act in his own best interests, regardless of any piece of paper that anyone had signed.

Elizabeth didn't want to put Mary back on the throne because OF COURSE. She was a Catholic with ties to Catholic France and Catholic Spain, and Elizabeth much preferred James and his Scottish protestants on the throne. Of course. There was no question of putting Mary on any throne, from Elizabeth's perspective.

and France would have been delighted to see Mary back on the throne of Scotland. They were used to it, with all the expense and all the French troops. It was the ideal way to keep England hemmed in, and they would have loved to have that opportunity again.

France had plenty of their own problems at the time and couldn't have spared the money or manpower to put idiot Mary back on the throne.

R430 the fullness of womanhood? Spare me, Mary had 3 disastrous marriages, 2 of which were her fault, a child she last saw at 10 months, and a miscarriage. I'll take the life of the powerful spinster any day.

That movie is coming to Blu-ray next week.

If we really want to crown a winner in the game of thrones, Elizabeth Woodville. Her sons were stolen and murdered, but her daughter sat on her throne and she is thus the ancestress of every subsequent monarch.

Oh France would have taken the time and money, yeah, they definitely would have.

And I do love that movie. Best? Oh who knows? What does that mean exactly, but very fun and I loved every minute of it.

Hey, people. Go start another thread about Mary, Queen of Scots.

This is my thread.

-Anne, The Most Happy

Oh are you still here, dear. Thought we'd moved on.

Mary accomplished absolutely nothing with her life, despite being showered with every advantage. Yes, she gave birth to a future king, but she had nothing to do with raising him or how he turned out. Her life was soap opera, with her careening from one bad decision to the next. The idea that she was playing any kind of game, long or otherwise, or "won" anything is ludicrous.

You may have taken my place, but like me, dear Jane, you will die a horrible, painful death.

-Anne, the Most Happy

giving him a son. Glory. but you do sad old you, dear.

R438 you may have gotten the fancy funeral, but I got a much cleaner death. And no one will ever be nominated for an Oscar or win a BAFTA for playing your (forgotten) spawn. That name was kind of bad luck in hindsight, wasn't it?

R442

Psssst! That is what queens were supposed to do; giving birth to heirs I mean.

Had Mary given Francois II an heir her position would have been unassailable, and Catherine de Medici wouldn't have been able to boot her out France so easily.

Plans ever were for Mary, Queen of Scots to rule Scotland, that is why she was sent to France and married to future French king. Scotland would have been ruled as part of France, hence all the upheaval the followed.

Two the idea of a female ruling England, Scotland or really any other than the few European courts where it had happened already was just not in the cards. Henry VIII waged that bitter and ugly battle to get male heirs (when he already had Princess Mary, then Elizabeth) was out of fact England had ever (outside of a few brief instances under particular circumstances) been ruled by a woman. And Henry wasn't going to allow it to begin under his watch, though in end it happened anyway.

As for "being involved" with her son's upbringing, you don't have a clue do you? Even if Mary had remained on her throne royal children at that time were largely brought up not just by servants in some other part of a castle, but often away from court all together in households of their own.

And I can't help that Hollywood doesn't love my actually interesting story, you bitch. (Have you met my damn brothers?)

Yes, Jane - one of your brothers lost his head and was buried next to me in the Chapel Royal of St Peter ad Vincula. At least I got the nice arrow box. I don't know what they dumped him in.

how dare you? Thomas had ... issues. And Edward had some other issues.

Wait, by the way, weren't you just a little TOO close to your brother? Can't quite remember.

Long before Queens Mary and Bess, I once ruled England.

R444 interesting? You got knocked up and you died. Then your kid died before he could matter. Even our mother in law was more interesting than you.

Oh Jane, you homely door mouse. You were so afraid of my ghost, you banned French fashions at court, and did away with the parties and entertainment. Very dull and quite the simpleton, you were.

R443 there's a difference between royal separation (and hell, Bloody Mary was adored by her parents before she failed to get a brother) and being completely separated.

R449 when people hear her name, they think of a soap opera actress. HOW EMBARRASSING.

Watching The Tudors on Netflix. Holy shit it’s good

[quote]died a spinster never knowing what it was like to be a full woman.

That might just be the biggest bunch of bullshit that I've ever read in 20 years on DL.

And for the record, Anne was probably 8's greatest love. Everyone after her was just a means to a male heir or some alliance.

Don't forget a nursemaid, R453!

R452 The Tudors series is addictive, but the scenes of torture and executions are hard to watch — they were a brutal people!

R453 is correct. There is a record of love letters Henry wrote to Anne that indicate his level of passion and love for her. After Anne, there were no more love letters sent to any of his wives.

R453 agreed. I'd rather be an all powerful spinster than fail at being a wife 3 x over and fail at motherhood

"Elizabeth didn't want to put Mary back on the throne because OF COURSE. She was a Catholic with ties to Catholic France and Catholic Spain, and Elizabeth much preferred James and his Scottish protestants on the throne."

And yet, Mary was dumb enough to run to Elizabeth when the shit hit the fan, and not her Catholic in-laws in France. Stupid woman.

R456, Henry was madly in lust with Anne, for a while anyway, but of course it didn't last. I think his feelings toward her were more passionate than loving, and his feelings were inflamed by a long period of refusal and frustration.

No, Jane was the one he loved, and not just because she gave him a son, she was a sweet little mouse who seems to have loved him, and who was the only one of his wives who never did anything to piss him off as long as she lived. Towards the end of his life Henry had this portrait of himself painted, with his son at his knee and the long-dead Jane by his side, and his daughters Mary and Elizabeth pushed off to the side of the frame. There's another portrait where he's holding a portrait of Jane, as if she had been the only real wife.

R459 Jane was honored because she did her One Job: birth a kid with a penis. As for not pissing him off, she didn't have much time

That was just sentimentality, R459, of an old man facing death. Anne was his one true love, and the historical records indicate that.

That was just sentimentality, R459, of an old man facing death. Anne was his one true love, and the historical records indicate that.

Jane is just lucky that she peaced out when she did. She would have eventually done something to displease him and in turn would have ended up in the tower.

I doubt Queen Jane would ever have pissed off Henry and ended up in the tower!

No, if she'd lived and birthed more children, she'd have stayed queen. And after a few years, her life would have been an endless round of court functions, and hoping that Henry might take some time away from his mistresses and bastards and pay attention to her for once.

R453

What are you on about? We're talking about comparing Mary, Queen of Scots here to Elizabeth I; how does Anne Boleyn and love letters from Henry VIII fit in?

I read somewhere that Henry smelled bad because he had open sores, ulcers filled with putrid puss all over his one leg and he had to have clean dressings put on the sores every night and none of his younger wives wanted to sleep with him. He should have hung on to Anne, because the rest didn't really love him at all. He stunk. He was ill tempered and more and more paranoid. His ego was out of control. Seemed like he eventually turned on everyone, like Cardinal Wolesley, Cromwell, his wives, all his advisors, The Boleyn family, Norfolk, I mean, Damn.

Mary wouldn't have changed the kid's diapers, but she would have been "involved." She would have chosen his nursemaids, tutors and who would have given him religious instruction, and she would have seen him on a regular basis.

Sleep with him or fuck him? I got the impression that everyone had separate bedrooms in those days. And it was a big deal when the King would visit the queen’s bedchamber.

Hey R465 - "Let's talk about Anne Boleyn"!

Guess you missed out and the main topic of this thread....

Bess and the stupid Scots woman deserve their own thread.

I don't think Anne was the love of Henry's life but she was definitely the lust of his life. I agree with whoever said it was Jane Seymour. And she died before she could ever disappoint him. So he elevated her to "sainthood" in a manner of speaking. I know I get most of my personal knowledge from movies, and TV on this subject, but it was chilling to see how women were regarded, and how power was wielded especially in the aristocracy. I've seen Anne of the Thousand Days, The Other Boleyn Girl, Wolf Hall, The Tudors, and some oldies, and I love historical movies and books. But Henry's court was a very unhealthy place to be. Everyone was jockeying for power scheming and destroying people. Anne Boleyn's Father and her Uncle Norfolk were terrible people. The Seymours were pretty awful too.

anne boleyn was the baddest puta in all of europe at the time and no one can tell me otherwise

I will never be convinced that Anne wasn't the love of 8's life. Love letters and intense passion, during courting, aside, the vicious way he turned on her and then doomed her, that kind of hatred is born out of love. He probably had some affection for Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman but it was utilitarian.

Jane Seymour sounds like a bore. Kathy Howard was a dim-witted tart who only married ugly Henry for his money.

Katherine Howard was pushed in front of Henry VIII and basically into marriage by her family. Same as many other girls of her class including later Lady Jane Grey. As with the Boleyn family the Howards benefited greatly both before Henry married Katherine and afterwards, especially Thomas Howard, Third Duke of Norfolk.

It was a foolish move by the Howard family given the nearly open secret that Katherine Howard was a lively little thing and apparently sexually active young woman. What Henry couldn't get up to doing often enough (or ever) someone else did, and soon the scandal broke which lead to Queen Katherine's downfall and eventual execution.

It cannot be overstated that girls/women were pawns to be used as their families saw fit. Even royal princesses or daughters of peers had often very little choice where they married. Marriage was about family avarice; a husband was chosen, girl was informed, and that was that. Objection possibly got them locked up, beaten and flung about the room.

Interesting tidbit; Henry VIII left throne to Lady Jane Grey if Elizabeth died (and presumably both Edward and Mary as well) without heirs. Sadly plots and schemes involving Edward VI removing his "illegitimate" sisters in favor of Jane Grey as his heir meant in the end she wasn't around .

"I will never be convinced that Anne wasn't the love of 8's life."

Well, you haven't convinced us! Who know what letters to whom were actually written, or what was said in person, basing an opinion on what survived 5 years doesn't tell you the whole story. And IMHO Henry's feelings for Anne were mostly lust and willfulness, not love, and were based on a long period of being refused. Henry wasn't used to being refused, and was absolutely determined to get his way, which raised his feelings to the obsession level. But that's not love, love doesn't turn into hatred and contempt the moment the lust is satisfied, but lust and willfulness does.

No, Henry loved his first queen for quite a long time, although of course his feelings soured, and he loved Jane too, and his feelings never got a chance to sour. But yeah, the last three wives were just because he had to marry somebody.

500 years, not 5!

Datalounge is slow as fuck lately, my keyboard has been skipping stuff.

R475 = that thirsty bitch Jane Seymour

I heard that he really loved Kathy Parr, she was a good woman, but he couldn't get his little dickie up to give her a jolly rogering. He was so obese by this point that most of his once proud pecker had retracted into his giant gut.

Of all of his wives, he loved J-Lo the most.

Parr was married to a sick old man. She was having an affair with one of the Seymour brothers. They planned to marry after he died. She was allegedly very attractive and would be wealthy. Henry found out before the asked his blessing or permission, and he decided to snatch her away from Seymour. Henry was petty insecure and narcissistic.

Henry didn't leave the throne to Jane Grey, R474. He excluded the descendants of his sister Margaret but left the descendants of his sister Mary, the eldest of whom was Jane Grey's mother Frances Brandon, who would have been the next heir. When Edward VI tried to tweak the succession himself, whether or not it was under the Duke of Northumberland's influence, his main aim was to safeguard Protestantism and also get a male heir, he excluded Mary and Elizabeth and made his heirs the male heirs of Frances or of her eldest daughter Jane. Only at a later stage, when he realised he was dying and there were no plausible males to choose, did he tweak his will to make Jane herself his heir. He really, really wanted it to be a man.

If you are interested in the historical facts behind Anne Boleyn and her life, I recommend Eric Ive's book.

He clearly provides adequate documentation to support his thesis that Anne was Henry's true love and that she was central in Henry moving away from the Pope, given her Protestant leanings.

If Anne hadn't miscarried her son, she would've lasted longer. Given her pushiness, she might've ended up in trouble later.

If Jane had given birth to a daughter, she would've been forgotten.

If Anne hadnt miscarried, if she'd birthed a living son, she probably would have stayed queen... even if her relationship with Henry was reduced to the occasional hatefuck.

And if Henry had come to loathe her in spite of the son or sons she'd given him, then he'd probably keep trying to get her pregnant, even if he hated her. In those days there was no better way to get rid of an inconvenient wife than multiple pregnancies.

It's interesting how Mary Queen of Scots paralleled her Tudor grandmother. Married off to be a queen consort, then widowed, followed by 2 disastrous marriages of her choosing.

If AB had given Henry the house full of lusty sons she boasted prior to marriage, as mother of a future king her position would have been unassailable. That being said Anne Boleyn had a mouth on her and kept putting her oars in where she shouldn't. Henry didn't like it when she was childless, nor would have tolerated it even if AB had given him sons.

As with Catherine of Aragon if AB pushed her luck Henry would simply have put her away at various castles; anywhere where he wasn't. Access to her children would have been determined by Henry, and the king alone. Long as she behaved herself and didn't try to meddle by influencing the princes against their father, Henry likely would have allowed reasonable access.

It is however an interesting thought to ponder history wise. If AB had given Henry viable sons who lived past their teens to inherit, marry and breed children whole history of Europe (or at least England, Ireland and Wales, with perhaps Scotland) would likely be different.

Union of Scotland with England likely never would have happened unless latter took former by conquest.

Mary, Queen of Scots would likely had a different fate.

No Queen Jane Grey

No Bloody Mary I

No Elizabeth I and the great era she presided over for England

Armada never would have happened, leaving Spain free to remain the great empire it was including dominance of the seas. Though England may have eventually become a super power in that respect anyway.

If Anne Boleyn had learned to mind her house, and bent her will she may have remained queen (and lived) longer, thus perhaps eventually giving Henry VIII a son who lived.

Henry had gotten rid of one stubborn wife (Catherine of Aragon), and took much as he did from her because the lady was a daughter of Spain. He was going to be damned if Anne Boleyn (his subject from birth) to get away with that again.

What Henry found titillating and exciting in the pursuit of Anne, got on his nerves not long after they married. Her not producing sons was icing on cake, but her main undoing was that mouth of hers. AB also had a sharp mind, which served her well at times, but she was foolish in her attempts to meddle in matters that she ought not. In short AB took "consort" a bit too liberally, and Henry kept slapping her down, but the good lady didn't get the message.

Don't think AB was the great love of Henry's life as some here claim. The king never or rarely mentioned her name again after AB was executed. She was buried in a gun crate or something in an unmarked grave (?), and that was that. Even in his elderly years when it wouldn't have mattered to anyone Henry never had Anne's remains exhumed and given a proper funeral and burial.

Henry was a spoiled, emotional, autocratic man-baby. Imagine going around and having people executed willy-nilly as a means of furthering your own agenda, or worse yet - on a fucking whim. And getting away with it. He represents an important piece of knowledge for perpetual consideration - there are lots of people well-known or not in the world who insist that they are good people, yet do the most horrendously criminal things to other people simply because they can. Aye, and Jesus said "Know them by the things they do (and don't do) and not by the things they say."

[quote]What do you like about her?

That fucking extra finger does it for me.

Watching the Tudors, and one of the more bizarre scenes was when Henry went to visit Jane Seymour and her family for a celebratory dinner on the day Anne Boleyn was being executed, then, later at some other big gathering of all men back at his court maybe on the next day, he sat at the head of the table and the servants brought out a huge white Swan that had been killed and stuffed, and within the swan was this big pie, and he leered at it and then began gorging himself, grabbing huge fistsful of pie in his hands and stuffing it in his mouth. There was something horrible about it. In fact he often distracted himself with a celebration while someone was being executed. Don't know if it's true, but the characterization of him in that series was monstrous. He was like a Devil.

R487 eh, Anne had miscarried twice, possibly 3 times. Even without the mouth, she was in trouble by 1536.

Bump

Anne Boleyn, they talkin' 'bout you, girl....