William Holden

He's up there with George Peppard and Jan-Michael Vincent for biggest Hollywood Alcoholic, definitely.

Holden was an alcoholic. It is common for alcoholics to "disappear" for days on end that friends and family of the alcoholic learn not to think anything of it.

William Holden was end-stage alcoholic — or close to it — when he died from falling and hitting his head.

It's unlikely he and Stephanie Power had what you or I would consider a genuine relationship. Most alcoholics at that stage are unable to perform sexually.

Iirc, Stephanie Powers, his girlfriend was out of town; perhaps in Africa because she was deeply involved in saving endangered animals.

"...and one of them says,"Hey Beefcake. Get in.

So I...got in."

Their short relationship as a couple had been over for a decade. They were friends for years, not joined at the hip friends.

Holden was a womanizer and alcoholic all of his adult life. Darling, R3, him not being able to "perform" does not mean he couldn't please a female sexually. Use you imagination, he did.

Sunset Boulevard, Stalag 17, Sabrina, Network, The Bridge on the River Kwai, Picnic. William Holden was an actor's actor, a cut above the rest.

Alcoholics push people away.

Okay, R5. So imagine him passing out while he's eating pussy.

He had a hell of a fey walk in Sunset Boulevard. I couldn't figure out if it was deliberate for the shallow character he portrayed or if it was some charm school affectation. Because he definitely wasn't gay.

[quote]Because he definitely wasn't gay.

Now THAT'S something you don't read on Datalounge every day. Or ANY day, for that matter.

They had a screening of the restored "Sunset Boulevard" a couple of years ago at Paramount Studios, and Nancy Olson was the special guest for the evening's event. She told great stories about making the film, and working with Holden (she was straight out of UCLA at the time). Here was this wide-eyed novice working with established pros (Holden, Swanson, Wilder, Von Stroheim, etc.).

During the kissing scene outside "Betty's" office, Wilder told them to keep lip-locked until he yelled "cut!" So they kissed ....and continued...and continued...and continued. Suddenly, from a darkened corner of the sound stage, came a loud, angry "CUT!" It was Holden's wife.

Wilder had seen her slip into the sound stage unannounced, to watch her husband's scene, and decided to play a joke.

I remember reading a story about his time on location while filming "Picnic". The cast, including Rosalind Russell had gotten together in the local hotel, in a upper room.

Holden, who was drinking, climbed out the window and was walking around the ledge outside.

While he was filming "Network" he purchased about fifty art books at a shop where I worked at 57th and 5th. Only five books could be listed on each shipping slip and the customers address had to be rewritten on each slip. He filled out half of them to help me out. A real gentleman. Very easygoing.

Powers was in her car driving to the Hart to Hart set when she learned of Holden's death.

She'd knocked on the door of his condo in Santa Monica a few days earlier but there was no answer.

r13 thanks for that bit of info.

It seems just about every one who worked with or knew Holden said he was a nice guy. Stanwyck adored him, called him her Golden Boy.

He did kill a man while driving drunk in Italy in the 60s. So there's that.

In his will Bill Holden left 250k to Stefanie Powers. With this money she established the William Holden Wildlife Foundation in Kenya. To her credit she's work to fund this successful education center ever since to honor Holden's memory.

Power's assistant is her trans MTF cousin. She also volunteered to beard for John Barrowman.

I think Powers, like Roddy McDowell did, knows a lot of the Old Hollywood dish.

In the Suzanne Vega song Tom's Diner she refers to his death

" I open

Up the paper

There's a story

Of an actor

Who had died

While he was drinking

It was no one

I had heard of"

Suzanne who?

Watching the decline of one of the world's most beautiful men shrink in to one of the ugliest should scare anyone away from the booze.

He was my favorite classic Hollywood actor. So sexy and talented.

It's not unusual to leave dead bodies laying about the house.

When my mother croaked, I didn't stop by to find her until she had decomposed into the shag rug.

What a thoughtless creature; it was a mess to clean.

At least that's what the Mexicans said.

Blake Edwards said Holden needed a few shots before every scene.

In this clip from the Tonight Show WH talks a bit about SOB, politics, Africa, etc

Looks like hell and died not long after.

He was only in his 50s here:

Knowing what we do about him now I can't watch him on film without thinking he's lit.

He had a fine voice. Quite distinctive. He chose good films and he had a fine business sense. Rather than a salary he chose a percentage of the gross from Bridge Over the River Kwai.

He also moved to Switzerland in the 60s to avoid higher USA taxes.

Ok I looked this guy up on google. Not bad looking. Seems straight but has anyone heard any stories about him liking men to?

[post redacted because independent.co.uk thinks that links to their ridiculous rag are a bad thing. Somebody might want to tell them how the internet works. Or not. We don't really care. They do suck though. Our advice is that you should not click on the link and whatever you do, don't read their truly terrible articles.]

R26 Please don't post to the Independent.

They make you pay to read their pages.

Just cut and paste, if you would.

Gloria Swanson thought he looked too old for his part. He drank during the filming, which made him look even older.

r27 I didn't pay to read the page. Just click on the link and KABOOM.

I get him mixed up with Robert Mitchum.

Bill Holden was so nervous about shooting the Moonglow dance number scene in PICNIC that he had to drink himself into a stupor to calm his nerves. Co-star Kim Novak, feeling insecure about working with such a stellar group of actors, had also become withdrawn and moody, so it didn't help that his scene partner was frosty and ungiving. When it came time to shoot, both were so stiff and awkward that it was left to cinematographer James Wong Howe to make the lights and cameras do the dancing.

One other anecdote: Holden, frustrated with Novak's lack of warmth and need to do take after take after take, complained to Roz Russell that Kim had absolutely no sense of humor and was "like ice water." when Novak got wind of this, she quipped, "If I'm like ice, Mr. Holden should love me, since he has a thing for whiskey on the rocks!"

He was the hottest classic Hollywood actor in his prime, for my taste. They don't make them like that any more. His deterioration was terribly sad, but I still would rather have fucked late-period Holden over late-period Brando.

Holden's step daughter wrote in her memoirs that Holden said he wasn't attracted to Novak in the least. He found her big boned.

I guess she wouldn't fuck him unlike most of his female co-stars.

Holden was too old for his role in Picnic but the music and dance scene are still captivating.

Also-not-gay Ricky Schroder starred with Holden in The Earthling in 1980 before Holden died.

One of Schroder's sons is named Holden.

"It's unlikely he and Stephanie Power had what you or I would consider a genuine relationship. Most alcoholics at that stage are unable to perform sexually."

Your equation of real relationships with sexual performances clearly pegs you as someone whose longest relationship has been under 5 years. And you have clearly never been married.

Powers and Holden were together nine years. He asked her to marry him 3 times but he was drunk on two of those occasions. And she shied away from the last proposal knowing he was very ill with the booze.

After Holden died his ex wife Brenda Marshall refused to allow Powers to enter the home Powers had shared with Holden in Palm Springs to collect her personal belongings.

Powers says she had returned keys to the Palm Springs home and the Santa Monica condo to Holden shortly before he died. She claims an AA counselor encouraged her to practice tough love with him.

Regarding Picnic, I read Holden requested and got extra pay to do the dance scene. He knew he wasn't a dancer and he probably knew it was out of his range of characters. He also knew he was too old for his character.

He and Powers had a normal relationship in the beginning but his drinking got in the way. He'd show up at her parties drunk and puke all over. She'd clean him up and send him home.

He seemed a nice, good man (adopting his wife's daughter) but his judgement was impaired by either alchohol or superstardom or just moving too fast. He was madly in love with Audrey Hepburn and Grace Kelly. He even became engaged to Kelly while still married to Brenda Marshall.

He also had a annual xmas eve fling with Shelly Winters.

Not the most morale man but was extememly talented and handsome. The last film I found him attractive was The Wild Bunch. He still had it then. Network was another good acting point but I think him not being nominated (either than or winning) the Oscar for his role kinda added to his ailment of depression and drinking.

I thought the Shelly Winters fling was with Burt Lancaster, R37. Not that Holden didn't have an affair with her. Big-boned, my ass, stepdaughter (R33). Holden was such a womanizer he didn't care what kind of bones a woman had. He even had a relationship with the crazy bisexual Capucine.

R15, Stanwyck saved his job in Golden Boy, his second film, hence he was her "golden boy." They remained friends and he sent her yellow roses every April 1. He owed her.

If Holden was the actor Suzanne Vega was referring to in her dopey song (dit dit duh duh, dit dit duh duh...") then she must have been really stupid when it came to movies. Because Holden won an Academy Award and had quite a career: "Sunset Boulevard", "Stalag 17", "Sabrina", "Born Yesterday", "The Country Girl", "The Bridge on the River Kwai", "Picnic", "The Wild Bunch", ""The Towering Inferno", "Network", "S.O.B."

He was an alcoholic and that finally did him him. But he was very well-liked in Hollywood. Barbara Stanwyck was a friend, and had been a great help to him early in his career (they were both in the movie "Golden Boy"). When they were presenters at the Academy Awards he made an impromptu speech about how Stanwyck had been so good to him, and she was obviously very moved, crying out "Oh, Bill!" After his death she was awarded an honorary Academy Award. During her acceptance speech she mentioned Holden, said she loved him and missed him. She said he had always wanted her to win an Oscar: "my Golden Boy, you got your wish."

R40, read my post, then post.

Suzanne Vega has often admitted to being clueless about popular culture.

(She missed the punk movement even as it was swirling around her.)

r38 Holden and Capucine saw each other very little. Too much is made of their liaison particularly since Capucine was gay and Holden knew it.

She tried her hardest to play straight but she could not.

I love Stanwyck, and that speech is one of the most poignant and heartfelt moments ever at the Oscars. They were terrific together in GOLDEN BOY.

r39/r41 we can all see you posted first, even if your post was not as good. Don't be a bitch.

Holden looked like hell in Network. While I like the film the Holden Dunaway relationship doesn't work imo.

Here we see the lovely Dunaway desperate for the love of the nearly repugnant Holden. His nutsack must have been around his knees by this time.

I don't think we have ever had a William Holden thread here!

He is an incredibly under-rated actor.

I recall his death vividly. Stephanie Powers, thanks to Hart-To-Hart was a HUGE star at the time; the show was enormously popular.

She was enroute to the set when she heard the news of Holden's death on the car radio. Her producers were desperately trying to reach her but in those days before cell phones, they missed her.

The irony is Holden's died on November 12, 1981 - Stephanie's co-star Robert Wagner suffered his own loss just a few weeks later, when Natalie Wood drowned on November 29, 1981.

I vividly recall the anemic reaction from the Reagans, who were only in office less that a year.

The only guests at their wedding were William and Ardis Holden. William was their best man at the wedding and Ardis was matron of honor.

How the hell were those William and Ronald friends?

Holden was refug. Reagan at some point was Pres of SAG. All of Old Hollywood knew each other.

He was way too old for his role in Network. Lumet should not have cast him.

Holden made quite a splash in 1939 as the young sexy lead in Golden Boy opposite cougar Barbara Stanwyck, but his career quickly evolved into sunny male ingénue roles in forgotten B pictures throughout the 1940s.

It was as a last minute replacement for Montgomery Clift in 1950's Sunset Boulevard that saved his career and showed Hollywood that he had a far more effective dark side with the right role to feature it.

He would probably be considered the top male star of the 1950s. I bet there were very few great scripts and projects that weren't sent to him first.

Though he was older than the character of Hal in PICNIC as written, his shabby, sexy world-weariness and desperation could only have been achieved by an actor in his thirties.

Having seen many productions of PICNIC with an age appropriate Hal....let me tell you...it doesn't work if Hal is in his 20s.

Kinda like a Blanche du Bois in her 20s (as noted by Tennessee Williams).

Great post R40.

And R39 /R41 while I realize being first is important to you, you should know that swiftness is not always the best. Please feel free to apply the same advice to your orgasms. Nobody likes a quick but boring shot.

"Holden was too old for his role in Picnic "

And for "Sunset Boulevard", where he looked the same age as Gloria Swanson.

I guess I'm in the minority, but I never thought he was attractive or all that talented, even before the alcohol added 20 years to his looks. Average White Guy looks, and always looked worried on screen.

He was wonderful in his guest shot on ILL. He and Lucy had great chemistry. Their movie MISS GRANT TAKES RICHMOND is a favorite of mine.

When I was a kid we always called Stephanie Powers the less pretty Raquel Welch.

She does seem a little butch now that I think of it. Lez?

BTW Powers is pretty crazy I guess.

John of the "John and Ken Show" in LA always used to talk about his interactions with a crazy neighbor who was a former TV star.

He never said who it was....but from stuff he said I figured out it was Stephanie.

Stefanie Powers loves the peen. Just a few months ago she lost her partner Tom Carroll, a New York businessman. That relationship lasted 14 years.

"Holden was refug."

He never seemed that way to me. He was an environmentalist; he spent much of his time working for wildlife conservation as a managing partner in an animal preserve in Africa. Nothing "refug" about that.

He was self-conscious about his role in "Picnic" since he was much older than the character of Hal (in the play Hal was 21 years old). He had a hard time doing the dance sequence where he and Kim Novak are engaged in dancing that seems like a prelude to sex. The director of the film wanted him to loosen up, telling him to "shake your ass!" To which Holden reportedly replied "if you want ass-shaking then get Marlon Brandon." Good one!

R47, Holden was NOT an under-rated actor. Maybe on the DL he is, maybe in how Hollywood history is told in 2015 he is, but he was not under-rated in his time.

He wasn't underrated. In 1954, he was the top actor.

I don't think he was miscast in Network. He was supposed to be old, tired, and being pushed out by younger blood. While the relationship between Max (Holden) and Dianna (Dunaway) was ackward and pervy because of their age difference, it was supposed to be odd. He was looking to revive his life, after being let go, and she was living out her girlhood fantasy of conquering a hero.

As far as him being a typical white boy, far from it. He was a very good looking man.

I don't think age difference is necessarily pervy in a relationship. My bf is considerably older than I and I adore him.

However in Network Holden looks repugnant while Dunaway is lovely. Its not a matter of looking old. Perhaps Holden's illness is too apparent in his looks.

I think Holden was a gifted actor with many wonderful films under his belt. It would be unfortunate if he was remember foremost for his manner of death. He left us a lot to treasure.

A major drunk. His list of rumored affairs (or at least dates) included Jackie Bouvier.

He and (even more so) Bogart were too old for Sabrina.

He was too old for Picnic, but the movie works regardless--the cinematography of the Labor Day picnic is beautiful. Lots of good character actors.

He was great in Network.

Oh that's rich. A man with substance abuse problems continues working. A woman with substance abuse problems is uninsurable.

I went to school with one of his sons in Switzerland. I was very young but I recall seeing him in his home near Lausanne (St Prex)a few times.

He seemed to be a nice man. Had quite a nice library and always seemed to be reading. I recall he stressed to us as youngsters to read. He never played with us or took us out on his boat. Nothing like this.

I visited the home many times to play with my friend but Holden was rarely there. Over the years I stayed in touch with the son. He became estranged from his father. Even at the time of Holden's death he was estranged from his children. However he did leave the majority of his estate to his two boys.

When he was not being miscast in roles, he was an excellent actor.

loved him on Lucy.

Didn't one of his sons commit suicide?

No, he died of cancer.

[quote]Also-not-gay Ricky Schroder starred with Holden in The Earthling in 1980 before Holden died.

As opposed to the one he made with his corpse?

The step daughter Virginia Gaines also wrote that Holden brought his tricks home - Grace Kelly, Audrey Hepburn - to introduce them to his family without admitting he was involved with them.

She says one night her mother descended a staircase in full Audrey Hepburn makeup to humiliate Holden amongst dinner guests. The author says Holden attacked his wife and demanded she go upstairs and remove the makeup. Violence ensued.

[quote]He was wonderful in his guest shot on ILL. He and Lucy had great chemistry

I'd never seen a William Holden movie and didn't know who he was in this ILL episode, but I loved him in it anyhow and it has always been one of my favorites.

Holden was really sexy in Sunset Boulevard and I thought he was still pretty hot in that dancing (more like walking) scene in Picnic, if only for the intense way he was looking at Novak as they moved--that scene is packed with sexual tension and yet it's totally innocent and simple.

Stefanie Powers was indeed in Africaat the time.

He was tremendous in Stalag 17, and I Love Lucy.

He would been fine if he had just joined my team.

I thought it was creepy that Holden died one week before Natalie Wood drowned. Does anyone know if Powers and Wagner hooked up after their partners died? they always seemed to have great chemistry on Hart to Hart.

[quote]Does anyone know if Powers and Wagner hooked up after their partners died? they always seemed to have great chemistry on Hart to Hart.

I think Wagner hooked up with Jill St. John pretty quickly after Wood died. (and of course Chris Walken while Wood was dying)

Holden was born in 1918 and died in 1981.

Marilyn was born in 1926 and died in 1962.

I like weird stuff like that, the year they died is the reverse of the year they were born.

Sabrina should have ended with Hepburn and Holden together, not that crusty old Bogie.

I outlived him by three weeks.

Watching him in "Golden Boy"(1939) is a delight, especially those shirtless boxing ring scenes where he displays his hairy chest.

He's hunky in Rachel and the Stranger

[quote]Powers was in her car driving to the Hart to Hart set when she learned of Holden's death. She'd knocked on the door of his condo in Santa Monica a few days earlier but there was no answer.

Surprised that she didn't have a key. They were adults who'd been 'together' for some time.

[quote]where he displays his hairy chest.

Unfortunately, they made him shave it in many of his movies.

Furry Bill Holden

Somebody posted that she had keys to his places but she returned them a few weeks before he died, R82

He sure was purty during his "Golden Boy" days. I wonder if he and Stanwyck fucked...

It looks like he dressed to the right.

How can anyone say William Holden in Sunset Boulevard wasn't hot??? That scene where he gets out of the pool? Are you kidding me?

Of all the 1950s American male stars, he was the one who the public related to most.

Clark Gable, Cary Grant, James Stewart, John Wayne, Gary Cooper, Humphrey Bogart were all holdovers from their parents' generation.

Burt Lancaster, Kirk Douglas, Robert Mitchum, Gregory Peck, Rock Hudson were all wildly popular but Holden was the most relateable.

Saw him on an episode of Murder She Wrote the other day. Not sure what year it was but he looked horrible.

Notice how most celebrities are found by their underpaid assistants? I guess his assistant was the bottle. Old school drinker, supposedly nice guy. Really dedicated alcoholics have thin blood so it's easy for them to bleed out. Another reason to take it easy on the booze.

He got so old SO fast. He was 41 while filming THE WORLD OF SUZIE WONG and he looked 60. He didn't look 36 five years earlier when he was filming PICNIC, either, but it's obvious that between 1955 and 1960 he aged nearly 20 years.

KELT Powers stated in her memoir that she had returned her keys (to the Santa Monica condo and the Palms Springs home) to Holden as suggested by an AA friend as a gesture of tough love.

Apparently this tactic didn't work. She's expressed her regret many times since.

I'm under the impression Powers did her best.

Holden spent some time in a German clinic the same year he died. There was talk that he might have lung cancer.

Powers claimed this was not true, that he was there for a general check up.

He may well have been there to dry out yet again.

Alcoholism is a terrible disease. I can't judge those who suffer so badly.

He fucked Jackie Kennedy ... in the White House ... while John was still alive.

I've heard the fucking Jackie O rumour as well but there doesn't seem to be any evidence to back it up.

He was a life long Republican as well.

[R90], Murder She Wrote started in 1984.

Holden died in 1981.

Incredibly kind, cordial and intelligent man. Worked with him several times and had long discussions about everything under the sun. He was conservative about economics/foreign policy but socially quite liberal. Whatever his BAC was during our conversations, he never appeared in any way drunk.

If you wanna see him in a really dated, silly movie, catch BREEZY, where he falls in love with flower child Kay Lenz. And take a drink every time he yells "Breezy!"

Loved him in "Our Town" and even in "Love Is a Many-Splendored Thing". "The Bridges at Toko-Ri" was exciting! He was charming in "Dear Ruth".

My personal impression was that he seemed very repressed.

I just never got him. I never found him to be particularly distinctive or attractive. I can imagine him having a certain magnetism in real life, though.

R35=an unfucked frau

"He fucked Jackie Kennedy ... in the White House ... while John was still alive."

Good for Jackie!

Her husband fucked all of Maryland AND Virginia while he was in the White House, why shouldn't she get some too.

I just saw him in an old western called "Arizona" from 1940, starring opposite Jean Arthur.

Arthur looks so much older than Holden that I check out their birth dates. She was 17 (!!!) years older than Holden!

But he was beautiful in the movie at age 22.

I remember reading that Holden had rented an apartment some distance from his home. He would often disappear for days at a time, and hole up in that apartment while binging nonstop on alcohol. No one else had a key to the apartment. Given his pattern of regularly disappearing, friends might not have even been alarmed, hence there would be no reason to call the authorities.

I think Stephanie Powers says in her autobiography that her therapist advised her to let Holden hit bottom in order to force him to deal with his alcoholism, so she stepped back from the relationship. Similar advice is given even today - just look at the TV series "Intervention". Alcoholism impacts not only the drinker, but seriously affects relationships with friends and family as well. It is not right to lay the blame for Holden's death at her feet -- the alcoholic needs to take the first step toward sobriety, and Holden was unable to do that.

Apparently Jackie Kennedy had two affairs while married to JFK. One was William Holden the other some Italian race car driver.

The Holden affair was before JFK was president.

Stefanie Powers was a sometimes when I feel like it twice a year girlfriend by the time Holden died. He had no real friends or girlfriends at the end.

It is kind of shocking to read that he was only about 57 when he made Network. He seems like a really old man in that. Alcohol abuse really ages a person I guess.

Yet he still looked good physically in "Breezy' (1973). He has a sauna scene (shaved chest), and he was still in good shape then.

According to Darwin Porter, he taught Jackie how to suck cock.

Peckinpah's whole myth and filmo clung to fall-down drunks for dear life.

Awe, he was such a bae

He was very handsome in Born Yesterday. I loved the look he had with the "Book Worm" glasses he wore in the film.

R98, I met him in his later years and thought he was wonderful. No sign of booze. He went out of his way to do me a favor.

I remember seeing him in films during my childhood. The attraction was immediate and compelling. Guess that should have been a clue, but in those days, I had no idea such things were even possible.

what was Stefanie Powers doing while she was in Africa? Was she donating "things" to the natives?

R114 what was the favor?

Did they have an affair?

Sexy and a true movie star. Not a bad actor, either. His shirtless scene at beginning of Picnic still perks me up.

R118 that was lovely. I hadn't seen it.

He looks like the Midwest, like his name might be Bob Eckles or Bill Taylor.

R121 you mean 'corn-fed'?

His real name was William Franklin Beedle, Jr.

Heh And Cary Grant was born Archibald Leach. Beedle & Leach.

Thanks for all the info, everybody. I had always wondered how someone so rich and famous could have died unattended in a crummy condo. And Ithanks for posting that tribute from him to her. I had never seen that one, but I have seen hers to him, and whether or not they had an affair, they truly loved each other. (And after finally seeing The Lady Eve on TCM, I think she was incredible.) It really bothered me in Picnic that he was a worse dancer than I am. Lucklly the music and setting saved that scene. He was wonderful in Sunset Boulevard, and in Sabrina he was cute as a blond and was the most likeable character, because he was the only one with a sense of humor. Until someone posted it, I had no idea he was only 63 when he had died. I had always assumed he was 83. Sad proof that no matter who we are, and what we've done, we can always die alone. Also, is there proof that he killed someone in Italy? I know that far asshole Matthew Broderick got away with killing a mother and daughter in Ireland, and I've hated him ever since. Finally, I'lll admit it. I have no idea what "refug" means.

Sorry, meant fat, not far, but I still hate the POS for getting away with double vehicular homicide. At least his days of riding off SJP are over.

[quote] William Holden was an actor's actor, a cut above the rest.

Actually, I read somewhere that he was uncut.

I told him, "The gutter's where you came from and the gutter's where you belong."

william holden was so very hot. in picnic he just makes the movie. i knew i was a little homo when i watched him in it. why do people say he was too old? he was a drifter, life was finished for him, his promise was over, love that movie. the dance scene is classic.. very sad that he died drinking alone. but it is what it is. ..

Picnic: He was supposed to be Cliff Robertson's college classmate. The movie has a strong supporting cast and great cinematography. It was his last picture for his Columbia contract. He was miscast for "Golden Boy"--it was really more of a John Garfield part (and he essentially played the same role in Humoresque). Given the rumors that Stanwyck was a lesbian, I suspect no affair. She was better cast for the film.

The Lucy troll/queen is deranged---Holden's vanity turn on ILL is meaningless.

He was so great in 'Bridge on the River Kwai'. Alec Guinness was brilliant in it, but Holden gave it the full movie star treatment. Director David Lean admitted as much to Guinness, who was jealous of how much Lean catered to Holden.

Jack Hawkins was great too, as was Hayakawa. That's one movie I rewatch every few years.

cliff robertson was not the college classmate, i will need to go now and get you the name,

i stand corrected. also nick adams was hollywoods boy whore, they all had him

Holden was perfectly cast in Network.

The Max/Diana relationship was not supposed to be "Hollywood sexy" ... it was supposed to be toxic, dysfunctional, ill-paired. Anybody who thinks Holden was miscast just isn't getting the brilliance of that movie.

He also had a very sexy voice.

[quote]Given the rumors that Stanwyck was a lesbian, I suspect no affair.

R130 Not to say she wasn't a lesbian, but you're going to base your opinion on hearsay? Why can't she be bisexual? That seems to be more probable, since there's more evidence of her being with men. Why is it always "or" on DL, never "and."?

R137 Because most Hollywood so-called bisexuals are gay.

Network was so fucking pretentious. That screenplay was exasperating. The only one who seemed to thrive in the film was Faye Dunaway because she was playing it for camp.

R138 and you know this for certain how?

I thought Barbara Stanwyck had an affair with Richard Wagner?

Thanks, R118. Look closely at Stanwyck's expression in that clip as Holden was speaking. It is amazing. First, a little shock and fear at what Holden might be about to say then embarrassment as she realized what he was going to say. They had Faces then.

[quote]I thought Barbara Stanwyck had an affair with Richard Wagner?

So she was into necrophilia? Because he died in 1883.

Did Barbara Stanwyck fuck Charlemagne?

R144 No, but I did! You can read all about it in my bestseller!

R133: the characters had been in the same fraternity.

Yeah, Hal and Alan Seymour (that's his name) were college buddies and recent graduates, so no older than 25. Holden was 36 at the time of filming and looked considerably older, thanks to booze.

Forgot he was renamed Alan BENSON for the film. Why?

Holden gives an interesting performance in The Dark Past (1948). It was made before he hit it big with Sunset Blvd. He plays an escaped psychopathic killer so it's against the type of sophisticate part he would later play.

r149 He was sauced in that film as well. In fact he was sauced in all his films, couldn't go before the cameras without a few drinks.

R150 did he have stage fright -- or whatever the equivalent is for film?

At times a thread here on DL sends me googling and I often find something interesting (and this time also sad). William Holden had two sons and they are also dead. I found very little about Scott Porter Holden (b. 1946 - d. 2005) - father of three. The other son was Peter Westfield "West" Holden (b. 1943 - d. 2014). Hopefully the link below works, it's a remembrance of West...

Man he really was a hairy beast... there are some films where he's hairy, but not this kind of hairy - of course there are other roles where some barber went to town with a razor and got him hairless (that must have taken some time!).

[quote] The Max/Diana relationship was not supposed to be "Hollywood sexy" ... it was supposed to be toxic, dysfunctional, ill-paired. Anybody who thinks Holden was miscast just isn't getting the brilliance of that movie.

The line of the script that gets most attention is "I'm mad as hell...." but the most insightful line is by Holden to himself as he sees Diana seducing and manipulating him. "Schmuck. What are you getting into?" An old man being honest for himself just a moment before he steps over the line.

R152 scroll back through the thread. A poster shared several accounts of spending time playing with his school friend, one of Holden's sons. They lived in Switzerland at the time.

He really was terrific in ILL, she brought out the best in everyone as she set such a high performance standard.

Wow, shows I'm clueless R31. I thought that dance scene where he folds her hand in his was the sweetest thing ever.

He lost one of his younger brothers (he had 2) who was a fighter pilot during World War II and was killed in action in the South Pacific in 1944.

I read that was one of the reasons he did "The Bridges of Toko-Ri" where he played a fighter pilot.

Ever notice how angry he is in most his films? He liked doing angry because it suited him.

Humphrey Bogart HATED him with a passion. Thought he was a "punk." Bogie, of course, could simply have been jealous. But there was no love lost between them during the Sabrina filming, that's for sure.

R160 what did Bogie have to be jealous about?

I don't think r160 is correct , but if Bogie had been jealous, Holden fucking this would be a pretty good excuse.

Did Bogie have a thing for Audrey? I've never heard that. Then again, I don't know much about him, just the basics.

My favorite film of his is "Love Is A Many-Splendored Thing" (1955). Just wonderful.

R163, from what I read about making the movie Sabrina, Bogie wanted his wife Lauren Bacall to play the role that Audrey Hepburn received. Personally, I just can't see Betty Bacall as a young, dazzling woman...

I don't anything about Bogie's opinion of Holden.

R50 I read Clift said no to Sunset because his private life and problems with older woman he was living with. The role and real life would have come too close.

Great masculine actor of a type not seen much these days. Robert Ryan also springs to mind.

Love Robert Ryan.

More RR

Sunset Boulevard is my all time favorite melodrama and the cast is perfect. Wilder tried to get Pickford to play Norma but at Pickfair understood she was all wrong for the part. It would have been very different movie with Mary and Clift. I can't imagine anyone else than Swanson and Holden in the leading roles.

R170 didn't Wilder also court Mae West? Now THAT would've been something!

Schroder could have named his son after Holden Caulfield, protagonist of J.D.Salinger classic, "Catcher in the Rye," published in 1951.

On the other hand, Holden Caulfield could have been named after William Holden.

Further, Holden's character in "Picnic" was originally played on Broadway by Ralph Meeker, while the character's best friend was played by Paul Newman, neither of whom had roles in the film version, which was directed by the same man who directed the Broadway play, Joshua Logan, who also had his gay side.

But Meeker also looked too old for the role. I think the poster above has a point; though the character is presented as a young man, it's really only believable if played by an older one.

("Picnic" in retrospect has an odd aftertaste. Yes, there is a seemingly genuine feel for the Midwest ethos, but surprising in retrospect, in that none of the local picnic goers is black. All so entirely white. I almost expect to see the dangling body of a lynching in the background....)

I read somewhere a strange rumor that Powers actually caused Holden's death, after he told her he was planning to marry someone else. They fought and she either hit him or pushed him, and he ended up bleeding out. Panicked, she left, then acted all grief-stricken later.

I did read an interview with some woman who claimed Holden had proposed to her, but can't recall her name.

[quote]On the other hand, Holden Caulfield could have been named after William Holden.

What about me?

R172 the bad aftertaste for me is that incredulous ending: 17-year-old Marge ditches her rich fiance and runs away with the unemployed, alcoholic, womanizing, drifter Hal. All in the course of 24 hours. It's supposed to be a happy ending, but I can't help but think, "This isn't going to end well" Or as we say here in DL, "This will end in tears."

An absolute doll of a hunky, masculine man, gorge in Sunset and fap material shirtless in Picnic. Loved the dancing--how many straight men are expert dancers? Like 0.25%? He did just fine. You could tell he was not a natural dancer but so what? Do-able in his prime.

.r172 that ending got me too. All this emphasis on her beauty. My guess is they would keep on drifting, he would be in and out of jail for petty crimes, she would get fat and bitter, and he would go out for cigarettes and never come back.

Also, Rosalind Russell was incredibly grating, but then she was in everything, except The Front Page.

Sorry, meant r175. Anyway, they wouldn't be any better off together than they were alone. He would stay a loser and she would fall apart once her looks were gone.

Interesting, that the publicity ad campaign for "Picnic" at the time included Holden with his shirt off, and Novak reaching up to him. This was the cover of the soundtrack lp album, which remained in print for years. "Moonglow" and "Theme from 'Picnic,'" a combined music cue, same as it is in the film, became a popular theme.

But then, that was 1955....

I love this movie. 1955 and the fact it was made before i was born. lol. i wanted to find out more about the writer. he really put across or the director did, the mood and personality of each person the desperation of Rosalind character since they would all be in their 80s now. i wonder actually how it would have turned out. 1.kim novak would have had baby right away 2. william holden would have gotten job as bell hop and been fucking women in the hotel 3.cliff robertson would have become alcoholic 4.kim N character would end up back home with the baby and her mom forever saying "I told you so"

William Inge...............well that did not end well...........all his movies have that amazing feeling of being lost...............the characters........sad that he was lost.....William (Motter) Inge brought small-town life in the American Midwest to Broadway with four successive dramatic triumphs: "Come Back Little Sheba" (1950), "Picnic" (1953; Pulitzer Prize), "Bus Stop" (1955) and "The Dark at the Top of the Stairs" (1957). With the exception of his Academy Award-winning screenplay for Splendor in the Grass (1961), his later plays and prose never achieved the success of his early work. Convinced he could no longer write, Inge fell into a paralyzing depression, which resulted in his suicide.

And in the beloved "Love Is A Many-Splendored Thing", Holden's leading lady, unlike most of the rest of his films, save "Network", where wife Beatrice Straight ("Get Out!") was actually 4 years older, was a only a year younger, pretty Jennifer Jones.

I don't think William Inge, director Josh Logan or anyone else intended the ending of Picnic to be perceived as a happy one.

R183 so it was a proto-GRADUATE?

[quote] I don't think William Inge, director Josh Logan or anyone else intended the ending of Picnic to be perceived as a happy one.

I read somewhere that the great cinematographer James Wong Howe was the Director of Photography on Picnic. Supposedly, if you watch the film to the end, you can see the the bus (with Madge aboard) and the train (with Hal aboard) are going in different directions.

It's not supposed to be a happy ending.

This is such an enjoyable thread. Thank you everyone.

Wait. so you are saying that william holdens character never went to meet kims character? he just kept drifting? wow, that would be a good ending

He drove Grace Kelly to a psychiatric couch.

Except Grace escaped his clutches and became a princess in a mythical kingdom.

But no happy ending for her either.

Grace had very sad ending. fat alcoholic seeking sex with strangers on planes

Yes, you're right about Grace.

Grace Kelly died an alcoholic like sister Lizanne.

R188 how do you mean?

he was sad to read about grace kellys life. whats the lesson there? dont listen to your overpowering father and live your life for yourself? she was really miserable and her kids were really spoiled selfish brats that stephanie lived here in los angeles and dated this restaurant owner i knew . the two of them were just brats

R194 I don't know much about Grace Kelly. Her father dictated her life?

[quote]Finally, I'lll admit it. I have no idea what "refug" means.

A derogatory term for a Republican.

It was mentioned early on in this thread that William Holden is the unnamed actor mentioned in "Tom's Diner", so I thought I'd add the song (my preferred version the Soul II Soul Dance version of Suzanne Vega's song).

It seems unimaginable today that a superstar like Grace Kelly, considered not only one of the most beautiful women alive but also a very well-regarded and hard-working Oscar-winning actress, would give it all up to marry the not particularly handsome ruler of a tiny little bankrupt European municipality and essentially lock her life away there. And she was hardly a virgin, she apparently loved sex and enjoyed it frequently with most of her leading men.

Whatever was she thinking?? Perhaps this deserves its own thread.

R194 her family was wealthy and influential in the Philadelphia area due to her father's business successes, but they were Irish Catholic, which was still a big negative deal in mid-20th century American class culture. They could not access real upper class society as such. They were fierce social climbers in a time when unless you had social standing it didn't matter how much money you had - you would never be accepted in 'ruling classes' WASP upper middle class or upper class society. That was a very big deal in earlier times.

One way to work it to advantage, or said differently, to work around it, was to have beautiful and well-schoole-in-refinement offspring alongside your big bucks. The monied upper classes were often long on pedigree and class status but short on assets, so an acceptable wealthy 'lower class' spouse who was able to meet a high standard of acceptance was a solution for both families. Alternatively, a wealthy upper class person who had plenty of money and social standing could and would pick and choose for beauty and whatever else turned them on. But often there was another quid pro quo involved in that attraction, and in this case the Prince of Monaco needed an heir in order to retain the sovereign city-state Principality of Monaco. Grace Kelly was a textbook example of the latter, though they might have been very attracted to one another on various levels.

R198 Fairytale story which ended too soon in a sad way and needs its own thread.

R200. most of the stories about her life once she became a princess , are really depressing

I heard that Elizabeth II didn't bother to show up to her wedding. Sent delegates instead.

Getting back to Bill here's TCM's Sean Axmaker on his performance in The Dark Past.

"Holden has played devious, morally dubious, and even violent men, but Al Walker is surely the only genuine psychopath of his career. With hair brushed up like a broom (resembling Humphrey Bogart in High Sierra, 1941) and the lines of face brought out under hard lights and minimal make-up, this is not the playful rascal or charming cynic that Holden does so well. Walker is a hardened, severe, pitiless character with a sadistic streak and a well of anger and Holden plays him with a growling meanness...in Holden's uncharacteristically feral performance the actor suggests the extremes of emotional scars and mental instability through a tight grimace under a sadistic grin or a slow-burning stare under a body coiled for attack."

R173 The woman's name is Patricia (Pat) Stauffer if I recall correctly and I remember this only because, like Capucine, she was left 50k in Holden's will. Powers was left 250k. No idea who she is/was.

Holden didn't have to read about Grace Kelly's life because he socialized with her up until the end. Holden had his home in Switzerland just a few minutes from Audrey Hepburn, Yul Brynner, the Burtons, Deborah Kerr, so many others and it was just a short hop to the S of France where they partied hard and Grace was always part of the group.

R204 so Audrey, Holden, Richard Burton and Liz, and Kerr settled in Switzerland to avoid paying taxes? Nice people.

R205 Well all of them were born and raised in either Wales, England or Belguim. Liz had property in US, don't know about the others.

R206 Holden was born in Illinois and raised in SoCal.

Liz may have been born in England (to American parents), but she was raised in the US (from age 7). The only time she didn't reside in the US was during her marriage to Burton. In fact, she renounced her US citizenship after marrying him. (She got it back after divorcing him for the second time in the mid-'70s).

Incidentally, Taylor's Wikipedia entry describes her as a "British-American," but only describes Nicole Kidman as "Australian," even though she, too, like Taylor, has dual citizenship, as she as born in Hawaii and was raised in DC for a bit, before her family moved back to Australia when she was like 5.

Tax laws were certainly an attraction to Switzerland, but there were others like peace and quiet, the discretion of the Swiss, the fairly large group of those in the film business already there, the heady Euro glitterati social life at the time, etc.

But yes, the primary reason was to protect their estates from higher tax rates in the USA.

Gene Kelly also moved to Europe iby the end of the 1950s to avoid high taxes. The studio system had crumbled and those that were too big for TV didn't need to be in Hollywood any longer.

He was pure sex in that "Picnic" dancing scene.

Not all of Europe had lower taxes than the US.

Deborah Kerr didn't live in Switzerland to avoid taxes, she lived there because she married screenwriter Peter Viertel in the early 1960s. He had lived in Klosters since the early 1950s because of the skiing.

r12 He was too old for that role, and he knew it. He was out to prove he still "had it" by hanging out of that window.

Americans pay tax on their income irrespective of their residence (unlike citizens of most other countries), so moving abroad for tax purposes isn't really much of an issue.

R214 unless you renounce your US citizenship. One of the founders of Facebook -- played by Andrew Garfield in the film -- gave up his American citizenship a few years ago, so that he didn't have to pay taxes. He'd been living mainly in south-east Asia.

I used to have great pity/sympathy for his character for getting screwed, but he's a real-life deadbeat.

I never really knew Bill Holden, but his wife wore my designs and appeared in my fashion shows. I recall in one the lovely Mrs. William Holden was wearing Heathcliff, a street suit of beige combed cashmere wool The jacket semi-fitted and hip length and was lined in brown silk with the taffeta. to match the blouse.

R217. lovely. hello i was the mistress of james Galanos and best friend to Mr.Hayes drunken straight sex slave he kept in corvettes and prostitutes. nice to meet you

R214 The tax laws to which you refer are relatively new. Not so long ago Americans could move their estates abroad and not be subjected to USA taxes. so Swiss tax laws (Monaco as well) were very interesting. (They still are for non USA citizens)

Its the newer USA tax laws in cooperation with foreign govs and banks that have prompted Americans living abroad to renounce citizenship.

Peter Vertel and Deborah Kerr lived in Switzerland for the same reason other celebs did - considerable tax break.

William Franklin Beedle, Jr, aka William Holden in ww2. Serving subordinate to Capt. Ronald Reagan.

Deadbeats. The lot of them.

He was in "Our Town" (1940), and only 22!

R223 he was actually 21 when it was filmed. It was released a month after he turned 22.

R224, Thank you for the clarification.

Mrs William Holden was actress Brenda Marshall. I remember her mostly as Errol Flynn's love interest in "The Sea Hawk".

That's who Audrey Hepburn and Grace Kelly were the mistresses to?

[quote]The tax laws to which you refer are relatively new. Not so long ago Americans could move their estates abroad and not be subjected to USA taxes. so Swiss tax laws (Monaco as well) were very interesting. (They still are for non USA citizens)

What the hell are you talking about? No one's discussing ESTATES; we're talking about INCOME. And Americans have been taxed on their worldwide income for decades. It is NOT anything new.

"He was way too old for his role in Network. Lumet should not have cast him."

So you think the role of the world weary, jaded, middle aged Max Shumacher should have been played by a YOUNG actor? You're an idiot. Holden was perfect in that movie.

What r175, r177 and r178 said.

Maturity is realizing "Picnic" did not have a happy ending and that mom was right. And no. The train and bus weren't diverging. Marge and Hal going to meet somewhere down the road.

In my imagining, 3 years later, Madge has two toddlers tugging at her skirt, one on the way, is 30 lbs heavier and Hal is drinking, womanizing and sporadically employed.

Alan Benson, the wealthy, right-side-of-the-tracks young man whose heart she had broken by running off with Hal, catches site of her, he takes her situation in, his heart turns over in pity, and, for the rest of his life, he never gives Madge another thought.

"Picnic" has to be one of the saddest movies ever.

r228 Your indignation is amusing considering it would seem you know fuck all about this subject.

For starters I refer you to The Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) of 2010.

[quote] ("Picnic" in retrospect has an odd aftertaste. Yes, there is a seemingly genuine feel for the Midwest ethos, but surprising in retrospect, in that none of the local picnic goers is black. All so entirely white. I almost expect to see the dangling body of a lynching in the background....)

r172, segregation was in full bloom in the 1950s. It would have been unthinkable to see black people at a white social event in a small town, unless they were the hired help. I grew up in the 1950s. It was in many ways a totally different world and culture.

The Negroes would have had their own picnic on the other, less desirable, side of town.

R231 You're really not very bright. That act has to do with ACCOUNTS, not INCOME. And I DO know "fuck all" about this because I worked in this field in the '70s and ;80s.

R298 Bwaahaa so accounts don't generate income? Income doesn't go into foreign accounts? You've revealed yourself to be a fraud. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

More please.R230. what would have happened in the future to everyone in picnic please

What a gorgeous man. Wonderful actor. He had that 'it' factor that made it hard to keep your eyes off of him when he was on-screen. Stole a lot of scenes in Sabrina. LOVED him, and didn't give a shit that he drank.

R232 segregation was mainly relegated to the South, It wasn't legal everywhere in the US, if that's what you're implying. But definitely in Kansas, where the story is set.

Perhaps R172 grew up with Disney TV remakes of classic musicals like MUSIC MAN and ANNIE that feature a multiracial cast. Thus, giving youngsters the wrong impression that whites, blacks, Hispanics, and Asians frolicked and sang together in harmony at the turn of the 20th Century and prior. Even though I'm a supporter of diversity in our current society, I think there's a danger in presenting history like that, especially when it's set in a certain time and place. (I had no such qualms about their remake of R&H's CINDERELLA, because that is set in a magical fairyland where anything goes.)

r235, I'll try.

Millie goes to college, comes out as a lesbian, lives and works in Chicago, dutifully sends her mom and Madge money and, in her old age becomes an emeritus co-founder of Michfest.

Alan marries a pretty, upper class uberfrau, they settle into a country-club style boring marriage and their children become overbearing 60s hippies.

What about Rosiland Russells character? does the guy back out of the marriage. do they marry and she becomes a nag and he kills himself in the garage late one night after doing his tinkering?(my neighbor killed himself like that with a gun. wife was such an overbearing bitch it was the only way to get away from her.)

R239 I'm sure there were other, more sane options. He just choose the quickest and irrational way.

R240. Well i guess he didnt think so. but thanks for your opinion. he was close to 70. had been ousted from his company. no children. he was her third husband. she owned the house . she had all the money from her 94yr old mother. so with with no money and few employment prospects and old age and her bitching daily , i am sure he thought that was the fastest and best solution.

r239, Howard and Roz's character marry. He turns the tables on her and becomes the one too awful to live with. She's last seen gazing wistfully at the school where she once was a teacher. Howard is last seen parked on his easy chair, wearing a dirty, tank type undershirt, waiting for "All Star Wrestling" to begin.

R241 everything but the kitchen sink, eh?

What about Mrs. Potts?

r244, I need to tag-off. Anybody else want to tell us what happened, besides death, to Mrs. Potts?

R230 but is that was the filmmakers intended? Or what people are concluding now?

R244. Mrs Potts never recovered from being blamed by kim novaks mothers for encouraging her to run off with a loser. Mrs. potts was ostracized in the community and blamed for kim novaks character later dying from a botched abortion when william holdens character slapped her around too hard and she left and tried to kill their baby. Mrs. potts was discovered old and alone being eaten by her many cats. it was a very sad ending for someone who just wanted to inspire a young girl to follow her dreams. mrs potts should have known better

Poor Mrs. Potts...she was stuck taking care of her demanding invalid mother. When Hal came in he made her dismal life seem different. I don't know if all this dialogue was in the movie, but here's what Mrs. Potts had to say about the effect Hal had on her:

Flo: You like the young man, didn't you Helen? Admit it.

Mrs. Potts: Yes, I did.

Flo: Hmm.

Mrs. Potts: With just Mama and me in the house, I'd got so used to things as they were, everything so prim, occasionally a hairpin on the floor, the geranium in the window, the smell of Mama's medicines...

Flo: I'll keep things as they are in MY house, thank you.

Mrs. Potts: Not when a man is there, Flo. He walked through the door and suddenly everything was different. He clomped through the tiny rooms like he was still in the great outdoors, he talked in a booming voice that shook the ceiling. Everything he did reminded me there was a man in the house, and it seemed good.

Flo: Did it?

Mrs. Potts: And that reminded ME...I'm a woman and that seemed good, too.

r246, I think the screenplay and direction of "Picnic" succeed at having it both ways: one can thrill at the triumph of "true love", and also, in the cold, sober, real, mature light of day, realize that Madge is in for a painful comedown because Hal, despite his "I can make it with you, baby" entreaty to her, will never be anything other than a deadbeat.

I remember seeing the film on TV for the first time as a girl (early 70s) and thrilling to the last shot of the camera panning up, up, and up to then that panoramic view of the train and bus going in he same direction to meet somewhere down the road.

Then, a couple of decades later I re-watched it and had the opposite reaction. That shot still is impressive, but with maturity you just know mom is right and Madge is in for a tragic experience.

R249. thanks, you are right

Mrs. Potts moved to France and was turned into a teapot.

He was gay. It seems like u guys are in denial. Why do u talk like he had a real gf who would check on him???

More than any thing else he had a magnificent voice. Did he ever sing in a film, even if just for a moment? He probably could have been a fine singer if he'd trained, but he didn't have the discipline and frankly I don't think he liked the entertainment industry much.

I'm the one who keeps saying that I knew a straight guy years ago who when we discussing movies told me very matter of factly that his uncle knew Holden and said Holden was gay.

Again this is the only time I ever heard such a thing about Holden only that he was a big alcoholic pussyhound. But it was such an odd thing for this guy to say and I knew him for a few years.

He never said another thing remotely like that so it did make me wonder.

Check out his voiceover narration in the closing scenes of the beautiful, multi-Oscar nominated "Love Is A Many-Splendored Thing" (1955), just wonderful.

R254 let me put it this way: If the overwhelming evidence points to his being straight, why should the second-hand ramblings of someone you once knew make you wonder otherwise? Think people.

Holden at his most adorable here.

I guess he bled out from the head cut. What a mess.

Powers, by the time she was on "Hart to Hart", pretty much had a knob on the back of her head that she turned between shots to tighten that face. I never got her.

Judge for yourself.

Here is the ending of Picnic. Lets assume that North is the top of the screen, South the bottom, East is Right and West is Left.

Starting at about the 3:26 mark, the camera focuses on the bus. The bus at this point is heading northeastward and the bus disappears from the screen at about 3:34. The road curves a bit (3:37) and the road and the bus now head straight east.

The railroad tracks appear first on screen at about the 3:44 mark, we see the train at about 3:46. The train is NOT heading in the same direction as the road. If the bus is heading straight east, the train is heading northeast. By the time the scene is almost over (3:54) you can see that the RR tracks curve sending the train straight north.

The outcome can be considered ambiguous because the bus and train, while not heading in opposite directions, are not heading in the same direction either.

Holden also did radio drama.

Oh, come on. Holden wasn't gay. But that gets said about every actor from previous eras. They were ALL gay.

R258 How many times in the final scene does Novak's character need to say she's going to Tulsa to convince you?

[quote] How many times in the final scene does Novak's character need to say she's going to Tulsa to convince you?

She may very well go there. But does he show up? Has he ever been a reliable character? Can she count on him? Dubious.

The ambiguous ending clearly leaves that open. If they wanted the ending to be clear, they would have clearly shown both the bus and the train going in the same exact direction.

They chose not to. Leaving the question in the minds of viewers who are paying attention.

All others are free to see the ending as cut and dried.

By the way. In my post at R258, I did not mean to suggest she is heading "east". We don't know which direction the road or RR tracks are running.

That's why I included this assumption.

[quote] Lets assume that North is the top of the screen, South the bottom, East is Right and West is Left.

I just used the NSEW convention to provide perspective and to show that they do not end up going in the same direction.

In my mind and after you get to know all the characters, holden intended to wait to meet her. but never does. Its his nature to run and i believe he never met her and she showed up and no one was there to greet her , probably the best thing to happen to her character. Yes she had to go home to bitching mom, i told you so. but later she was more experienced in life after this and she settled down with a good reliable man

They met up in Tulsa, married, lived above a hardware store counting pennies to buy milk, had two kids, she got fat, fought, drank, he left, she became a whore.

I have scrolled through this thread, albeit quickly, and I saw no mention of his affair with Jackie Kennedy, apparently while she was married to JFK. According to Mr. Reliable Darwin Porter, He taught Mrs. Onassis how to suck cock. And he was anything but gay. One of three exclusively straight actors in the Golden Age of Hollywood, the others being Frank Sinatra and Glenn Ford.

STFU r266. We don't mention the DP name here. That repulsive fat queen writes fiction and only idiots buy/read his rubbish.

The guy was a loser. He made all those films and he's best known today for getting a pie in his face on "I Love Lucy."

R268 maybe by you. I've never watched ILL, save for a few episodes here and there. My childhood friend's mom was a big ILL fan and had the VHS box set in the late '80s. Sometimes we'd watch with her. Then, we grew apart in middle school and I never attempted to watch the show on my own. Anyway, I was more of a movie buff than TV, so I was more familiar with Holden's film work. In fact, I didn't know he was on ILL until this thread. And I'm willing to bet that most people are like me. ILL may be iconic, but that doesn't mean that everyone has watched it.

That ending in PICNIC is anything but ambiguous. And KN couldn't act for shit. And Holden looked old enough to be her father

R270. since you have such an "upbeat" take on life please share your thoughts on the ending

They met in Tulsa.

Have ever ridden a train? Their tracks don't track along highways made for automobiles.

Thats sad then . cause based on the characters personalities the rest of their lives would have been a disaster

R273 how do you mean?

R274 well she is not a smart girl. she gets by on her tits. she likes rough type men who cant hold a job. the sex will be good for awhile. but i see her turning into one of my favorite movies characters. ...who is shelly winters in suddenly last summer. its so perfect a movie. shelly winters becomes just unbearable and pregnant . liz taylor character is the prize. cool crisp clean rich. . kim novak character will be come the same as shelly winters character. pregnant and a nag and wanting holden to settle down start a family. he will feel like he is in prison and leave

sorry its not suddenly last summer its a place in the sun and this is the scene where shelly winters just becomes unbearable its the best acting . he can feel the cage coming over him and trapping him she is so disgusting here you want him just to drown her. she is like a cage coming over him and trapping him

such an amazing scene. the fat girl . shelly winters.

However did she get a Lead Actress nomination for that? She was supporting. She disappears midway. Even Liz was supporting. She was merely the object of Clift's affection and has few scenes, too. If anything, that movie was all about Monty. His character is in it from beginning to end.

R278. are you kidding me Liz owned the movie. the one scene with her in the cadillac when she is hiding from the police but not knowing they are hiding from the police . she represents everything a man would want. beauty wealthy excitment. contrast that with shelly winters fat depressing crying weeping complaining. "we wont have much. i am not afraid of being poor. you will see you will forget about all those silly rich people." god you want to strangle her and drown her

R279 still doesn't make her character a lead.

What are the stories about Stefanie Powers being a crazy neighbour in Coldwater Canyon?

She's courted British aristos most her life but she seemed quite down to earth until one day as I walked by a theatre in the West End I saw her posing on the alley steps for photographers during the run of Matador.

Very peculiar scene that. An ageing Hollywood star in the bright sunlight posing in the most provocative manner.. From her TV interviews I thought she might have been more self aware than this.

PICNIC: The picnic scenes are from an actual Labor Day picnic in one of the towns they used for locations. James Wong Howe was married to a white woman--it created many problems early in his career, he was someone who really got racism. It it was an all white town (and in much of the Midwest in the 50s that was the case) it probably looked like what we see. The ending is ambiguous---the motion picture code would not allow their reconciliation to be likely. Holden's character is essentially a "trickster" figure, so upends a lot of things. It's an Inge play, so it's unlikely to make anyone happy.

[quote]R33 Holden's step daughter wrote in her memoirs that Holden said he wasn't attracted to Novak in the least. He found her big boned.

Yeah, you can understand. She's an utter monster...

Re: R283

Actually, I think it was in POPCORN VENUS that Marjorie Rosen (who lived through that era) wrote Kim Novak had one of the few star figures in the 1950's that looked healthily relatable to female moviegoers.

She wasn't unattainably stick thin (like Audrey Hepburn and Grace Kelly) but she wasn't as blown-up bovine as MM or Jane Mansfield, either.

R283, OMG, Gargantua!

[quote]R286 OMG, Gargantua!

And it's not like he's exactly a skinny mini, himself. (Probably booze bloat.)

It would be nice if some just let women live life : (

I did read that Holden was financially generous to former lover Capucine in the years after her film career dried up, and he also remembered her in his will.

Bill Holden and Barbara Stanwyck did indeed "fuck". While Barbara was devoted to her douche-bag husband Robert Taylor she remained faithful. Not so after their divorce in the early 1950's. She was fucking every dude that would stick it in; she boned Bill Holden when they made the film Executive Suite. I've read Barbara knew how to suck. Hard.