The Music Man (1962)- with Robert Preston and Shirley Jones

First saw it in grade school on some special movie in aud day. I remember loving it.

Lida Rose I'm home again Rose. . .

Preston is a great performer, but why are the costumes in shades of orange and grey?

In TECHNIRAMA! 70mm in larger markets when it first came out.

I'm watching it, too - thanks for starting thread, OP! - and I love it, even more than when I was young. Those barbershop quartet singers are superb! The score is wonderful; the energy, joy, of the whole production is great, and wasn't Little Ronnie Howard, cute!

This is my favorite musical as well. Robert Preston was perfect for the role. Buddy Hackett was good too. And who would ever guess that little Ronnie Howard would become a director.

"Lida Rose/Will I Ever Tell" is one of my favorite songs from a musical. Shirley sounds great in this.

I recently discovered that "76 Trombones" and "Goodnight My Someone" are the same tune but at different tempos.

I'm Ethel Tofflemeir, the pianol girl.

I've always loved the stage show, and adored Robert Preston, yet I don't much like the 1962 film version. There's a very artificial look and feel to it, the performances are too big for the camera... I can't quite put my finger on the problem, but it's not a great film.

And Shirley Jones was miscast. Marian the Librarian shouldn't be a beautiful woman in her twenties.

R7, isn't that cool...I had an excellent music teacher, espec since in a small town, who told us that many years ago. Also neat to notice the counterpoint of "Dream of Night..." against "Lida Rose."(if counterpoint is the right term.)

OMG! I'd forgotten what a great number "Shipoopi" is! Buddy F---ing Hackett! To think people probably know him best from stand-up and "Match Game", dear God...GREAT character actors and actresses in "Music Man"!

Elaine Joyce, uncredited, in the dancing chorus!

I'm sitting here, watching; kvelling!

Yes she SHOULD be a woman in her twenties. Remember, little Winthrop is her brother.

I grew up near Mason City Iowa, the birthplace of Meredith Wilson. They had a Meridith Wilson Day in his honor every year and all the marching bands in the area marched in his honor.

My aunt and uncle in Des Moines lived several blocks from Meridith's brother and they knew the family.

It has always been one of my favorites.

So your family knew him but couldn't spell his surname?

any movie with the divine Mary Wickes is okay by me!

and for you movie trivia girls, the second Mrs. Wilson on Dennis the Menace (Sara Seger) is also in it.

I prefer any musical that is NOT Sondheim

I loved this movie as a kid too OP. I wrote a letter to the local network affiliate as a ten year old boy that was incensed - absolute beside myself that Shirley Jones was playing a a tole on the Partridge family and she was not signing - I further complained that this was loosely based on the Cowsils, which I loved - and tthe characters they had just simply did not sign well enough - frankly this musical farce was insulting - my mother then knew I was gay so she says - anyway, I love Robert Preston and Shirley Jones and listen to them frequently in the car.....I know I'm just an old dizzy queen to you here.....

Until the Internet, I always thought Meredith Wilson was a woman (as Meredith is a female's name generally).

I can't believe they didn't take you seriously and add ASL to The Partridge Family, R16.

R9 = Matthew Broderick

R15 = pretentious twat. Smell her.

[quote][R15] = pretentious twat. Smell her.

At least "she" smells better than the insufferable Sondheim worshipers who shut down all negative discussions about his abilities as a composer. You know you're not making it any easier for him to make fans, guys!

Great hog!

PianolA - she's the pianola girl.

[quote]I recently discovered that "76 Trombones" and "Goodnight My Someone" are the same tune but at different tempos.

One summer vacation from college, I was in Music Man in a dinner theater. We were halfway through the summer when I suddenly realized those two songs were alike. Duh! For awhile, I thought: "It's so obvious, how could you not notice!" But "76 Trombones" is so exciting that you get caught up in it, while "Goodnight My Someone" is so restful and beautiful that you're not thinking of other songs at the moment.

Great hog! is Great honk! (no?)

And doesnt the movie change Jeely Kly to something else because it is too close to Jesus Christ?

It's "Great Honk!" R22. "Great Honk!"

Barbara Cook should have been Marian, reprising her B-way role.

Jeely Kly!

The dance numbers are amazing. I think Onna White did her best work here, even though she won a special Oscar for "Oliver!" 6 years later. The boys in the gymnasium number, the library and Shipoopi have some amazing butts. Not to mention Timmy Everett as Tommy. He was the brother of Liza's "beau" Tracey Everett. And hot as fuck. Gay boy who died too young. Drugs I think.

I always imagined Bob Preston had a huge schlong. So sexy.

R7, it is each song's time signature that distinguishes them more than its tempo. "Seventy-Six Trombones" is a march: one-two! one-two! in 2/4 time. "Goodnight, My Someone" is a waltz: one-two-three, one-two-three, in 3/4 time.

I had Shirley on a flight a couple of years ago flying from Lax to New York. She was sitting in coach and we chatted for awhile. She still looks great and was very charming.and friendly. A class act.

Did she tell you about her sons' big dicks, r31?

All the way to R32 and not one mention of the DIVINE Hermione Gingold as Eulalie McKechnie Shinn!

Whomever had the brilliant idea to cast this British comic actress previously best known for her work in Noel Coward comedies as the all-American pretentious wife of the town's mayor deserves an Oscar.

Her counting to ten in the "indian" tongue alone is worth the price of admission, and of course she stops the film with just one word...

The late great Robert Preston. Always a joy to experience. No one could have played Harold Hill better. Buddy Hackett, the always delightful Hermoine Gingold. Shirley Jones was a faint glimmer lost in their brilliance. And little Ronny (as he was then billed) Howard!

I love Hermione Gingold as Eulalie McKechnie Shinn

So do I.

Thank you, R33!

As a child I was fascinated by Hermione Gingold when the movie was shown on HBO, which it was often, incredibly enough.

Now I know why.

I love this movie, as do my straight siblings.

[quote]The boys in the gymnasium number, the library and Shipoopi have some amazing butts.

Onna White sure was obsessed with people's butts.

The only other person who might have been better than Robert Preston would have been James Cagney (time travelling from 1933.)

Do you think Hermione Gingold and Hermione Baddeley ever received each other's fan mail?

The wonderful (and uncharacteristically non-profane) Buddy Hackett once told of complimenting Shirley Jones on her acting skills. Her ability to cry on cue was an amazement to Mr. Hackett. Take after take, Ms. Jones could always provide a tear.

Her secret, Mr. Hackett explained, was in her delicate fingernails. For in her right index finger, she had cut a sharp ledge. When tears were called for, Ms. Jones would raise her hands to her face, and with the deformed nail, pluck a nose hair from her nostril.

And the tears would flow.

R39

While brilliant as George M. Cohan in Yankee Doodle Dandy, Cagney was too Irish. Preston was the personification of the Mid Western huckster Harold Hill.

James Cagney was a short little troll, even when he was young. Better than Robert Preston? Hardly.

My favorite part was the ladies doing their Grecian Urns.

ONE Grecian Urn. TWO Grecian Urns. And now, the fountain....

One thing that annoyed me about the movie was when, during the "Pic-A-Little, Talk-A-Little," they kept showing shots of hens clucking and pecking even though the old biddies were in the middle of Main Street and there was no chicken coop in sight. I think the director wanted to emphasize to the audience that the women were supposed to look like a bunch of clucking hens, but he kinda beat you over the head with the imagery. I mean, it was evident by the song lyrics (e.g. cheep cheep cheep) and the women's plumed hats and head jerk movements what they were supposed to resemble.

It was Cagney as con artist in a lot of Pre-Codes that suggested him to mind for the role.

[quote]The dance numbers are amazing. I think Onna White did her best work here

I make sure to watch MM when it's on because of the incredible dance numbers - I'm not very familiar with Onna White, but she did some brilliant work here.

What does Jones have to say about Preston's cock?

She was with Jack Cassidy then... did she 3-way with Cassidy and Preston?

R16) Love that story and I can relate. My friend's parents performed in a local production of the play, so my friend and I knew every song. It was so exciting for me to hang around backstage. I watched the Partridge Family and I realized that something was up with me when I hung a poster of Susan Dey on the wall, instead of David Cassidy (I'm female).

Cagney? He did have energy and charisma the role requires, but he's much too New York. The honest Iowans would have thought of him as a sort of foreigner.

And then there's his age. He'd done a film with Shirley Jones three years earlier, the justifiably forgotten "Never Steal Anything Small", and even then he looked like her grandfather. I mean, Preston was too old for Jones, but Cagney would have been a better match for Hermione Gingold.

I was speculating about YOUNG Cagney. He was definitely too old at the time the play and movie came along. Just idle for-fun speculation. By the way there is a story that Jack Warner offered the part to....Cary Grant. Grant hadn't seen the play but when he saw Preston in it he not only turned Warner down but said he wouldn't even see the movie if Preston wasn't in it. Laughing at image of Cagney and Gingold together. That would have been fun! Hmmmmm....let's speculate on ...Burt Lancaster. (It's testimony to Preston that even the most plausible runners up just don't seem right...and it's even hard to come up with any runners-up.)

Actually, the two Hermiones loathed one another. They were often up for the same roles.

It's one of the near-perfect musicals. It's not surprising to me that it beat West Side Story for the Best Musical Tony that year.

As for Onna White's work, it was spectacular: Mame, Half a Sixpence, 1776, Irma la Douce. Even I Had a Ball had some great things in it.

Nominated for 8 Tonys. Never won.

Burt Lancaster had much too heavy a hand for the role, R51, and he was almost as New York as Cagney. Cary Grant would not have fit into the Midwestern setting, of course. Gene Kelly might have been okay, but he was too smug and too East Coast.

No, really, in my current sleep-deprived state I can't think of any 1962 actor who would have been better than Preston.

R45----The cutting away to the scenes of chicken makes it even funnier for me.

I thought maybe Howard Keel or Gordon MacRae could have done the Harold Hill role justice, but no. It would have been somehow off. The role had Preston's name on it from the beginning.

Robert Preston it was, is and ever shall be then! Not that any one we've pondered will ever get a chance at the role seeing as how they've all retired...to the grave! Any thoughts on substitutes for Shirley Jones? Doris Day was too old by that point. She might have been right ten years younger

Marian the Librarian was a minor role, a foil for Hill. Mitzi Gaynor could have done it, even though she will forever be Nelly Forbush. Maybe Vera Ellen.

r58 Vera Ellen and Mitzi Gaynor had too much of an "edge" to their personalities. May I suggest Jean Crain? She had a lovely softness and girl-next-door quality about her, as was evident in her role in "Cheaper By The Dozen" and "State Fair." Don't know if she had a good singing voice though.

I don't see how Matthew Broderick could come close to Preston. I've never seen the former in the newer version, but his casting seems improbable.

Today, I'd like to see Michael C. Hall as Hill.

Craig Bierko played him in the 2000 revival and was nominated for a TOny.

Someone will mention this since it always comes up in Music Man threads but Shirley was pregnant during filming. Her costumes were designed to cover her ever-expanding tummy. The fashions of that era with their Empire waists were just right for camouflage. Keep in mind that she was pregnant DURING filming so she is slimmer in some scenes than others.

The same was true of Judy Garland in her "Who" number from Till the Clouds Roll By. She was pregnant with Liza and was terrified of falling. HER dress also has an Empire waist and her dance steps are rather "gingerly" performed without much intricacy so as to protect her baby. Notice that she waves her arms around a lot, using a scarf for emphasis. She lets the chorus boys do the heavy lifting, literally.

Eric McCormack also played Harold Hill to good reviews.

I saw an all-black version of MM last summer. The train station set ("Blacks only") was beautiful, and the opening number (yes, as Hugh pointed out on the Tony's, it IS a rap song) was fantastic.

The rest, not so much. They could have jettisoned the Irishness of the Paroo's with no problem, but they kept it and a black woman with an Irish brogue made no sense. This wasn't color-blind casting, it was supposed to be an all black community.

They also missed the opportunity of turning "Ya Got Trouble" into a gospel barn burner.

R65 You've never heard of Black Irish?

R66, Black Irish refers to people of Irish ancestry who have features that are darker than stereotypical Irish features (i.e. blue or green eyes, reddish hair and pale skin), but they're still white. They just have dark hair and brown eyes.

I adore the boy dancers, especially Timmy Everett who played Tommy, the lead dancer. The bisexual Everett was dating Jane Fonda around this time when she was just starting out on Broadway. He died in 1977 of a heart attack at 39.

R67 It was a joke, son!

Robert Preston was a homosexual and used to do it with Shirley's husband when Shirley was singing.

Robert Preston was straight and something of a ladies' man as they used to say back then. He was a good guy and loved by casts and crews. A shame he couldn't stop smoking and it killed him.

I have a friend who was in "Mack and Mabel" and she has nice things to say about Preston. During the run she discovered she was pregnant, and at the baby shower Preston gave her his own baby spoon. I think he never had kids.

[quote]No, really, in my current sleep-deprived state I can't think of any 1962 actor who would have been better than Preston.

How about ME?

Will no one mention Barbara Cook who makes Shirley Jones look and especially sound like Shirley Temple

I can think of one actor who might have been able to pull it off and who was considered for the Broadway role: Danny Kaye. Apparently, it was Kaye's wife, Sylvia, who insisted that the part wasn't right for Danny and so it went to Preston.

When the time came to film it, according to Willson, Warner called him to say that he wanted to buy the rights to "The Music Man" and cast Danny Kaye in the lead role. Willson insisted that it had to be Preston. Warner agreed and the rest is history.

By then, it looks like Kaye's wife had a change of heart because, as Willson reported:

[quote]One day Danny Kaye dropped in unannounced to say that he’d learned ‘Trouble.’ And he sang it, doing a heck of a job. I told him so, and he said, ‘I knew you’d say that. Do I get the job?’ And I said, ‘No, Bob Preston’s got the job.’

R33,: best line: "Take the body with you.."

How did Robert Preston come to be cast in the original Broadway production? As far I know, his rep in the 1950s was mostly as a B movie star without much experience in stage or film musicals.

[quote] I don't much like the 1962 film version.

Perhaps you might prefer a version along these lines

He had no experience at all with musicals, R77, and had never sung a note in public before. He had done several Broadway shows, though, and I think I remember an interview with him once where he said he auditioned with "Trouble," which played to his strengths and was more talking than singing. The director loved him and persuaded Willson to go along. The rest is history.

Another site had this to say about the casting; I don't know if it's true or not:

[quote]but Danny Kaye had turned down the leading part of Professor Harold Hill. For that matter, so did Dan Dailey, Gene Kelly, and Phil Harris, thinking the story was too corny. It was the show's director, Morton Da Costa, who insisted that Robert Preston would be perfect for the role, even though Willson had his doubts about him.

I found the interview I was thinking of.

[quote]"They'd run through all the musical comedy people, before they cast me," he remembers. "Everybody had demands and the producers were getting sick of the crap. Ray Bolger liked the part, but he wanted 15 minutes in the second act to do his own thing. Finally, someone said, 'What about Preston? If he can carry a tune in a bucket, the part's his.' Well, I've never taken a singing lesson in my life. But fortunately they auditioned me with the 'Trouble' number, which is an actor's number all the way. No way an actor can fail with it. They were knocked off their feet. Enter career number three or four or whatever. From then on, I couldn't get a straight play script. Nothing but musicals."

Meryl Streep early in her career could have played Marian. But then someone would have forced Kevin Kline on the film, so I guess not.

Just remembered Robert Preston once reprised Harold Hill without the singing and dancing.

I still love it.

The Music Man is one of my favorite musicals and I adore the movie version. [However, I don't care for the one with Matthew Broderick.] The movie has such stellar performances all around from Preston, Jones, Paul Ford, Hermione Gingold, Mary Wickes, Buddy Hackett, Pert Kelton, and Sara Seegar -- really, the whole damn lot of them.

I don't agree with someone upthread (from 2014) who complained that the movie has an "artificial" feel to it. To me, there's something so wonderfully nostalgic about it. A beautiful tribute -- neatly tied up with a bow -- to a time and place that really only exist on a stage or on film. Such innocence.

I don't recall when I first saw the film, but when l was about 12, my mom took me to a local summer production of TMM. Professor Hill was played by the most gorgeous guy I'd seen; tall, muscular, handsome. The next summer I joined that theater group, which was just down the street from our house. They were putting on a production of Little Me and my crush was the male lead. Sweet memories.

Trivia - Meredith Willson was the only musician to play under the batons of both John Philip Sousa and Arturo Toscanini (flute/piccolo)

The Music Man is my all time favorite musical. I think the entire cast was just perfect for their roles. Robert Preston played the con man/music man incredibly well. Hermione Gingold as Eulalie McKechnie Shinn was such a hoot. I liked Shirley Jones as Maaaaaaaaarion. Madam Libraaaaaarian. Buddy Hacket was ideal. I read that Little Ronny Howard did had a bit of a lisp and it was just a matter of playing it up a bit. The songs were catchy. A good brass band is cool. It was so clever to slow down 76 Trombones to make Good Night My Someone.

No I have to go find me DVD and watch it again.

"...play under the batons of both...Sousa and...Toscanini"

So who had the bigger baton?

It sounds like Preston was the only actor under consideration (except for Gene Kelly) with any sex appeal.

Danny Kaye, Dan Dailey, Ray Bolger, Phil Harris! Can't see the show working with any of them. Thank the theater gods they all passed.

r45 Nobody could play a clucking old hen like our Mary.

Timmy Everett and his beautiful ass were divine. Best chorus boys ever!

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Wilson had been around for years; he even wrote the background score to THE LITTLE FOXES.

Preston was ideal, and earned immortality in the role. This didn't exactly end his doing non-musical roles; he was the original Henry II in the flop Broadway production of THE LION IN WINTER, opposite Rosemary Harris. Now that U would have liked to see!

The most appropriate candidate to play Harold Hill in a revival is Andy Karl, who'd be perfect for it. He has exactly the right swagger, and can also sing.

r87, Forrest Tucker, who starred in the first national tour, had the biggest baton.

All those names listed above did turn down the part. I can see all of them except Kaye, whose prancing mannerisms would have been rococo à la mode in a part that needs to be played straight, In addition to Tucker, Bert Parks led a tour, Eddie Albert replaced Preston on Broadway and Van Johnson starred in the original London production.

I love The Music Man -- on stage. The movie is just too over-produced for me, although Preston and many others are terrific in it (even if they are playing to the back of the balcony).

For those of you who think the movies is over-produced and too theatrical, how do you think it compares to MGM Golden Age movies like Meet Me in St. Louis, On the Town and Good News?

Seeing the live stage productions are almost always better - more energy - get lost in the moment more so does not seem as artificial - but I do think Music Man is one of the better adaptions of a stage musical. Probably the best of Shirley Jones adaptions, although Oklahoma and Carousal aren't bad and Jones and McCrea are likable leads, the movies are a little flat. Music Man does a good job having some energy in the dance numbers etc.

I really wish I could have seen Forrest Tucker do The Music Man.

I think I read somewhere that Jackie Gleason was one of the names offered the original production. I guess they thought his starring in Bob Merrill's "Take Me Along" in 1959 would be an identical hit. It was a hit, but not a monster hit like "The Music Man" which ran an astounding three and a half years, almost unheard of at the time.

Preston was ugly and hammy. Look at him below he's so hammy he could've killed Mama Cass and the other three as well

The Tony tribute the year Preston died was wonderful. First Bernadette Peters sang Time Heals Everything from Mack & Mabel in an autumnal scene, then the stage revolved to bring out Barbara Cook shimmering in gold to sing Till There Was You from the Music Man, both in amazing voice.

The original Shipoopi . Quality leaves something to be desired.

The remake.

In second grade I played Winthrop in a high school production. I was always pissed that we kids were't in Shipooopi. We'd just do our own Shipoopi number backstage. The movie was my introduction to Shirley Jones and later when I found out that the Partridge Family was like the Brady Bunch but with Shirley Jones I was all in.

These days I only sing along with Being In Love. I tingle at every clang clang.

My great grandpa was in the movie! He sang Shipoopi!

My favorite musical as well. Preston was perfect for the roll and the rest of the cast too. The songs in it were brilliant.

I watched the Matthew Broderick version once. He was awful in the roll and I will never watch it again.

Saw it on a huge screen as part of a film series. Even on the largest tv, you never get the same impact as seeing a film on a big screen.

One image (well, bit) which really jumped out for me is Amaryllis at the piano and her cross over note. The piano key board is at the bottom runs the entire expense of the shots and she looks even tinier.

[quote]My favorite musical as well. Preston was perfect for the roll and the rest of the cast too. The songs in it were brilliant. I watched the Matthew Broderick version once. He was awful in the roll and I will never watch it again.

Double "oh, dear."

It's on 'MoviesTV' right now. Odd that no one has wondered about Preston's orientation. He SCREAMS gay in every scene...

For me, one of the problems with the film - and it's common to many 50's and 60's wide-screen color films - is that the lighting tends to be flat and overly bright. The kind of nuance you see in Minnelli's best color work, or the 1954 A Star is Born, pretty much disappeared. Maybe it was a challenge related to the wide-screen cinematography, but it's something that always disappoints me.

[quote] Also neat to notice the counterpoint of "Dream of Night..." against "Lida Rose."(if counterpoint is the right term.)

The song's title is actually "Will I Ever Tell You?" (not "Dream of Night...") and its lyrics actually are "Dream of now,/Dream of then...," not "Dream of night..." It's one of the prettiest songs in the entire score.

It's funny to me that Meredith Willson never had another good now in him after that. "The Unsinkable Molly Brown": had a respectable run, but the songs are much inferior, as is his version of "Miracle on 34th Street," "Here's Love." but "the Music Man" has one of the best scores of any broadway show--nearly every song in it is a winner, and for the movie he replaced one of the few songs from the stage show that's pretty weak, "My White Night," with a much better song: "Being in Love."

Shirley Jones was a mixed choice as Marian Paroo: she was very pretty, and she had a lovely silvery voice. She emphasizes Marian's snobbishness and coldness, though, which doesn't make her very likeable (although she redeems herself quite a bit with her warm smile when Winthrop comes out of his shell to sing his verse in 'Wells-Fargo Wagon"). Onna White does her best work for this movie, and the "Shipoopi" sequence is beautifully choreographed. Hermione Gingold gets almost every ounce of humor imaginable out of Mrs. Shinn (Paul Douglas is pretty tedious as her husband though).

As for Timmy Everett: his dancer's ass is a thing of wonder, and is the single best thing in the whole movie.

Jackie Gleason would have been great in The Music Man. He has a great patter song in "Take Me Along" called "Sid, Ol' Kid" that is very much like the sorts of patter songs Harold Hill sings, and he does it terrifically.

the problem, though, is he was so fat it would have been hard to cast a Marcellus Washburn to contrast against him.

That was Paul Ford, r110

You're right, r110--thanks for the correction.

R109, no that's the fault of the director, who had directed the stage version and knew no better. The entire production is very set-bound and 'stagey', ironically kind of like Minnelli's 'Brigadoon'.

Love, love, love this film, the performances, the actors, and the musical's numbers and story. And for those upthread who mentioned the actors "playing to the balconies" and the production seeming stagey, remember too that this was a Warner Bros. production, and most all their stage-adapted films and films' orchestration and vocals always were LOUD.

Broderick wasn't right for the 2003 production, but Kristen Chenoweth nailed her high notes -- a key or two higher -- and better than poor Ms. Jones'.

At 3:15 into this clip...

This is also my favorite musical. Preston was perfect for the role and so was Shirley Jones. The rest of the cast was also great. Buddy Hackett, Hermoine, Timmy Everett , marion's mother and even Ronny Howard as Winthrop all performed their roles to make this the best musical IMHO. The songs were also extremely memorable. Now I got to dig out my old DVD and watch it again.

The Broderick remake fell flat. Broderick was absolutely wrong for the role. Never want to see it again.

I think Seth Mcfarland would make a Great Harold Hill in a remake or one of those Live performances.