Jay Sebring and Roman Polanski

Polanski was screwing everything he could find despite being married so he didn't really have anything to complain about. There was a famous story about Polanski cruising down some street in Hollywood, seeing a beautiful woman from the back, walking down the sidewalk, and stopping his car to come on to her. When she turned around, it was Sharon Tate.

R1 - I can't imagine Roman Polanksi being very successful at picking up random women off the street. He was never a looker. Jay Sebring however was handsome.

Hey, it was the sixties. Anyway, some people thought that Jay hung around because he knew Sharon and Roman would eventually divorce. He still loved Sharon and I suppose he hoped that maybe one day they'd reconcile. It certainly would have been better for her if she had married Jay Sebring. She'd probably be alive today if she had. She never would have been in that house the night the Manson family came to call.

What on earth did women see in the ratlike Polanski? I can understand some women wanting to sleep with him because he was a successful director; I guess they hoped he help them get movie roles. But I can't think of any other reason why a woman would want to go to bed with THAT. Not only is he short and ugly, but he's an incredibly selfish, domineering egotistical creep who eventually drugged and raped a 13 year old. He cheated on poor Sharon with impunity and people who knew them said he ordered her around like a servant.

In Pamela Des Barre's memoir "Take Another Little Piece of My Heart" she claims she got a call from Polanski. Seems he wanted to hook up with her. Miss Pamela, who would fuck just about anybody, turned him down, telling him that "he scared the hell out of me." She said he "laughed like a hyena" and hung up.

Sharon had been engaged to Jay when she flew to Europe to work on '13' (eventually titled 'EYE OF THE DEVIL') in the Fall of 1965.

She was under contract to Martin Ransohoff (producer of THE BEVERLY HILLBILLIES). He was trying to branch out to better quality film and was in negotiations to produce a film with Roman Polanski who was a hot property. The screenplay that Polanski had (again, eventually titled) THE FEARLESS VAMPIRES KILLERS had the role of a beautiful innkeeper's daughter named 'Sarah'. Polanski had been dating Jill St. John and wanted to use her. Ransohoff wanted him to use his protégé; meet with her at least. They did and neither liked one another though they did better on date #2. Long story short, Sharon got the role, the two became involved while the film was in production in late 1966, early 1967 and it became serious. Sharon sent Jay a 'Dear John' letter but Sebring flew over to find out where he really stood. Allegedly after seeing how happy Sharon was with Roman, Jay graciously stepped aside and took the role of family friend. Jay ingratiated himself to Roman too so that he wouldn't feel threatened.

Sharon allegedly began to look at Jay more like a brother and she felt he was a little lonely, lost so she was often looking after him in a way. Personally, I think that Jay wanted to be around for when Sharon had finally had enough of Roman.

I don't believe that Roman found Jay to be a threat; that being, that it was like I wrote above. Jay, former fiancé, now family friend. Before Jay, Sharon was involved with a very handsome French actor Philippe Forquet. There was a physical fight that was bad enough that Sharon needed medical attention and Ransohoff pulled some strings to have Forquet blackballed. He went back to France and eventually entered his family's business. He & Sharon never saw one another again.

Yet, so many defend the rat-like Roman...

I don't even think he's that good of a director.

Jay had drugs.

Sharon Tate had a thing for short guys, Sebring was as diminutive as Polanski.

[quote]Sharon Tate had a thing for short guys

Before Jay, Sharon was engaged for a year to the very handsome Philippe Forquet who was 6' tall; before Forquet, Sharon dated actor Richard Beymer ('Tony' in WEST SIDE STORY) who was 6'2".

Photograph is of Sharon & Philippe in 1964.

He's a hit-or-miss director, but when he hits the bullseye--REPULSION, ROSEMARY'S BABY, KNIFE IN THE WATER--he's fabulous..

I really liked The Ghost Writer.

There have been rumors reported in the tabs through the years that Polanski wanted her to abort the baby. She refused and he didn't want much to do with her sexually after that. Just a rumor, but maybe that is why he didn't care.

There's also the story that she waited to tell him that she was pregnant until she was too far along for an abortion.

At that point in his life, Roman was still scarred from what he had endured in WWII including the loss of his mother in a concentration camp. He had voiced that he didn't want to bring any children into the world. Years later he would have 2 with his 3rd wife, actress Emanuelle Seigner.

Those movies are 50 years old, #10. He's had mostly misses since.

The answer to the OP's question is that Jay Sebring was actually gay. He was also an immensely successful drug dealer and hair stylist to the stars.

Polanski also slept with Catherine Deneuve. Mia Farrow cheated on Sinatra with him.

R15 you think he was gay 'cause he was a hair stylist? Talk about stereotypes.

[quote]Sharon allegedly began to look at Jay more like a brother and she felt he was a little lonely, lost so she was often looking after him in a way.

Ew, Sharon was into incest?

Sebring had a massive cock.

Do you think Sharon Tate was terrified in her last moments of life?

What a sick question, R20.

I am curious about this too

R2. True story. And at the time Sharon was his wife.

I have wondered if anyone has any "stories" about Sebring? Did he ever at least dabble with men?

r20--troll.

r14--KNIFE IN THE WATER, REPULSION, ROSEMARY'S BABY and CHINATOWN are great movies. It doesn't matter how old they are. Or that he hasn't done any other great movies. If you've done 4 great movies that's 4 more than most directors have done.

Ghost writer was pretty good as well. And Tess had lovely cinematography .

R24 I vaguely recall hearing no rumors about him but this was a long time ago.

Sebring was into B&D and Sharon wasn't. She went along with it but it wasn't her thing. Then she got involved with Polanski, who treated her like shit, and rather than dump him, she pretended she was fine with it. Jay knew how unhappy she was and hung around hoping for a second chance. Polanski never wanted to marry her, and almost certainly didn't care if she ran around on him.

"Sebring was into B&D and Sharon wasn't. "

Link, r28?

R29 it was in Helter Skelter - Roman is quoted as saying Sharon just thought it was 'sad' that Jay liked that kind of sex. They didn't judge him harshly.

What a piece of shit this Roman Polanski is. He still has tons of defenders in France.

Any pictures of all three of them together?

Any more gossip or info about Sebring? He seemed to be such an interesting character in his own right but we don't hear a lot about him. Several years ago there was supposedly a movie in development about Sebring titled Beautiful People starring James Franco. I thought it sounded pretty intriguing but it just got dropped or something. Im not sure if they just decided not to film it or what. Too bad.

I believe Sharon tried to talk her killer (Sadie??) out of it. She wanted her to let her have the baby first and promised she could kill her right after. The whole thing is just so sick! I was a child of the 80s and it's hard to imagine just how many serial killers were active In the 70s/80s: Gacy, Bundy, ONS/ EARONS, Ramirez, Coryll. There's more, I know. Those days were such innocent times. I wouldn't believe there were so many predators out there.

Did you actually read the thread, R32?

I wonder how much the upcoming Tarantino film will delve into their lives. Already Tarantino seems to have cast many extra characters.

If you google "Jay Sebring post mortem" there is a picture of dead Jay Sebring, I am not going to post it here, I am guessing most won't want to see it.

R37 yeah that's definitely not necessary. Photos of him in life would be nice (too squeamish to google because I don't know what will turn up )

Wow, I never knew Sharon was engaged to Philippe Forquet. I remember him on a TV show called "The Young Rebels" when I was a kid, he was very handsome. Reading up on him just now, I also didn't know he came from an aristocratic background. Poor Sharon should have stuck with him.

I loved fearless vampire killers. Campy with Gorgeous cinematography

Forquet used to beat Sharon....so R39 uh, no.

In the opening segment of this 1963 episode of "To Tell the Truth," "all three of these men are claiming to be Jay Sebring, who will cut your hair FOR $25!!"

r42 I knew what Jay Sebring looked like.

Eldergay here. When I arrived in Manhattan in the early 1970s I heard from many people who moved in those circles that Sebring was bi but more gay than straight yet he adored Tate. It would have been a good match socially and Tate had been around the block a few times and probably wouldn't have cared about Sebring's "other needs." In those days you needed to be straight married to have a major career in just about any profession.

R44 Thanks for the scoop! This story was a bit before my time but I find the individuals involved (and the time period ) fascinating.

As mentioned above, Sebring had a GINORMOUS dick.

It was a cuckold thing and Polanski, the perv, was into it.

R11 yes that is a very good political thriller. Perfectly cast as well. The only problem is that the scenery resembled Europe more than cape cod.

Sebring = the guy in Shampoo, only gay?

R48 I have read some sources saying that Jay was the main inspiration for the character in shampoo but I have read other accounts saying that the character was based on a number of Hollywood hairdresser businessman or another guy altogether. The consensus seems to be that the movie is based on him.

r46, you're a silly cunt. What do you know what Polanski was into? It sure wasn't Jay Sebring's dick, Mary.

Polanski wasn't into Sebring's donkey dick per se.

He was into his wife getting dicked down by it, whether he was watching or not.

And he wasn't too torn up about them getting their throats slit side-by-side while he was out of town.

The picture of Sebring and Tate at R46 was taken the day of the murders. Within 24 hours, both would be dead.

1960s or no, it's a little odd that they just hung around each other mostly naked like that. It almost gives credence to the rumors that they were having an affair at the time of their deaths.

Polanski was such a dick towards Tate that I almost hope she was having an affair with Sebring. He seemed to adore her and judging by the pic at R46, had a big cock, unlike the midget she was married to.

r51, they didn't get their throats slit, and he was torn up by it. He may be a rapist, but you're an asshole. And r46, speaking as if he was there to know these people, is a cunt.

But r46 showed us that delightfully revealing pic, r54. What have you done for us lately?

Polanski had family members killed in the Holocaust. His life was not American suburbia. Educate yourselves people. I think he's fucked up - and for a good reason. Does not excuse his actions with the underage girl but your wife and unborn child murdered might mess you up a bit. He was hardly the weirdest director in Hollywood for that matter.

According to his autobiography, Polanski started hanging out with teenage women when he was floating around Europe after the murders. He said he liked them because they were innocent and simple: they didn't care about Hollywood fame or the Manson killings. They just wanted to have a good time.

Of course, this sounds and is self-serving (it's an autobio, after all). But it's interesting insight into the origins of his ephebophilia.

I highly recommend the You Must Remember This Podcast on the Manson Murders. Episode 7 focuses on Sharon's relationship with Jay Sebring, Episode 8 on her relationship with Polanski, and Episode 10 on Polanski's life after Sharon's death.

Hairdresser GENE SHACOVE was the inspiration for "Shampoo," not Jay Sebring.

Huh, r58. All this time I thought it was Jay Sebring. Thanks for that info.

R57 is there anywhere I can find written transcripts of the podcasts? I enjoy reading but dislike audio information, but I'm having trouble finding any transcripts.

R12, there are always rumors after the fact. It has also been reported that both were very happy about the impending birth.

Jay was Brian Wilson's hair stylist. Interesting considering the Dennis Wilson / Charles Manson connection.

R51, he was badly upset about it. He had a very hard childhood in Europe during WWII. The idea of a family was attractive to him. Tate was very warm as well as being attractive. She was very happy she was pregnant and, like a lot of men, the idea of being a father was appealing.

I found a transcript for part 1 of the series, R60. The others might be there too.

Sebring was evidently quite gifted as a hairdresser and very much in demand. If he had lived he could have perhaps been the next Vidal Sassoon. I think he had his own line of shampoos if I recall correctly but I don't know what happened to them.

I imagine, r65, the line of shampoos died with him.

I'm actually surprised that there has never been a docu-series that profiled all of the Manson victims, including the LaBiancas. I'd watch.

[quote]...the secrets and or forgotten histories of the Hollywoods first century parts of the panoply that worked on your host Karina lungworm...

Yikes, that transcript at R64 is pretty bad, even worse than listening to Karina Longworth's stilted delivery.

R67 That would be fantastic. I'm so tired of hearing about Charlie and his psychos. His victims were actually very interesting people.

I thought Jon Peters, Barbra's ex, was the inspiration for Shampoo. He was good-looking and definitely into women, he left the gorgeous Leslie Ann Warren for Babs.

That's what I heard too R70.

Jay Sebring went to the same school I did and is buried in the same cemetery in Michigan as one of the most amazing people ever aka my Grandma

In those ghost hunting shows, they say the street that they were killed at is extremely haunted. Some guy who lives in the next house says he's visited by Jay Sebring and Sharon Tate. I read that Trent Reznor lived in the Sharon Tate House and one day he abruptly packed his things and left.

R72 interesting that he wasn't buried in California. That's where his life, his career and his friends were. I guess his relatives wanted him closer to family. We never hear from his family or the Folgers.

Emile Hirsch has been cast as Sebring in Tarantino s upcoming film. At one point Hirsch was everywhere, particularly right after Into the Wild but I haven't seen him in much of anything lately.

The Folgers R74 are pretty much in denial. They want nothing to do with this. Seems like the families of the victims were pretty much fucked up except for Sharon's. Can you imagine dying this way and not having a family advocating for you?

The Folger family have pretty much stayed in denial of this R74. They want nothing to do with this. Can you imagine dying this way and your family not advocating for justice for you? Sharon's family seem to be the only ones fighting for justice for her.

Ya better stop posting about this, if ya know what's good for ya, ya little piggies! I'm not fooling . . .

“When you see a bad spot on an apple, you cut out that spot.”

If Jean married Jay, she'd be [bold]Jean Seberg-Sebring.

And if Courtney Cox married Jerry Zucker, she'd be Courtney Cox-Zucker.

The name Sebring always just seems a little ridiculous to me. Like he should have been part of Siegfried and Roy.

(Not that he deserved to die for it)

I think he really was Thomas Jay Krummer,

Out of morbid curiosity, I drove up to Cielo Drive the one time I visited Los Angeles. Don't know if it's haunted, but it does have an extremely isolated and creepy vibe.

Jay took the name from the Sebring motor raceway in Florida, he thought it sounded cool.

Do we have any interviews from lovers of Jay, anywhere? I wonder if he really was bi? It does seem like he could let go of Sharon, but all other signs say gay.

R86 It seems he was bi but mostly leaned gay. Perhaps they had a dynamic similar to Mary Austin and Freddie Mercury.

I remember reading about Reznor renting the house, r73. He wanted to set up a studio in the room where the murders took place and record an album. Apparently Sharon Tate’s sister found out about it and she managed to confront him at some music industry party.

She accused him of exploiting the death of her sister, and he was basically shamed into packing his bags and leaving.

Ok, I've always enjoyed Tarantinos films, but this topic has been done and done and done again, if Inglourious Basterds is any indication of how he handles historical events this is a film I dont think I'll care for.

Reznor took the front door off the property to hang in a studio! The the original property owner Rudolph Altobelli moved back into the house 3 weeks later and lived there for 20 years feeling "safe, secure, loved and beauty."

While this has fascinated me since I was a teenager, this is one project that I cant say I'm interested in seeing.

Someone mentioned up thread that the victims stories haven't been told and would be interesting if they were, have to agree on that one.

R89 if I recall correctly, Olivia Hussey also lived in the house for a time afterwards and said something similar to Altobelli, that she felt warm happy vibes in the house. I thought that was very striking because it goes so against the "haunted doomed house " stereotype you would expect . I think Hussey said she had positive memories and associations with the house so perhaps that's why. I have heard other accounts of people being creeped out even driving near the area though.

R90 I am sure that they do get bad 'vibes' they're almost always expecting something and the placebo effect takes place.

Tex Watson was the real villain in all this. He not only killed Jay Sebring, but he also stabbed Frykowski to death and butchered poor Sharon and her unborn baby.

The truth is Sadie Atkins lied about her involvement in Tate’s murder, the real killer was always Tex Watson.

Um, r92, I'd say Patricia Krenwinkel was if not an equal certainly a worthy second villain. And Atkins held Tate as Watson stabbed her. She's a big fuckin' villain.

"He was good-looking and definitely into women, he left the gorgeous Leslie Ann Warren for Babs."

Oh, come on. Jon Peters was NOT "good looking." He looked better when he had a beard, because it covered up his ugly face. And his face WAS ugly. And he was a creep. Lesley Ann Warren should have been glad to get rid of him.

"The truth is Sadie Atkins lied about her involvement in Tate’s murder, the real killer was always Tex Watson."

She lied about everything, so nothing she ever said was credible. At first she said she stabbed Sharon Tate to death. Then, when she wanted to get out of prison, she said she just held Sharon down while Tex stabbed her. Then I think she even denied holding her down, that it was all Tex. LIke hell it was! I believe she did stab Tate to death. And then licked her blood off her fingers. She said she did that; I do believe THAT.

Leslie Van Houten does the same thing, blames it all on Tex. She was a very eager participant in the murder of the LaBiancas, but now says she just did "what Tex told me to do."

Patricia Krenwinkle was the worst of all the women, r93. She definitely killed Folger. However, Watson killed all the rest of the victims that were in the house that night - including Stephen Parent - who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Moreover, Watson admitted in his autobiography that he stabbed Sharon to death, after Sadie froze when it came to actually having to kill someone.

Krenwinkel was a real hatchetface.

"Moreover, Watson admitted in his autobiography that he stabbed Sharon to death, after Sadie froze when it came to actually having to kill someone."

He may be just saying that in order to make it look he takes full responsibility for what he did on those nights. That's one thing you have to do to get out on parole; convince the parole board you accept full responsibility for your actions. I think probably both he and Atkins killed Tate. Atkins also helped Bobby Beausoleil kill Gary Hinman. I don't she ever "froze" when it came to killing people.

Olivia Hussey was good friends with Sharon Tate and moved into the house after the murders. She said that the vibes in the house were wonderful but one day an ex-bf--Christopher Jones---showed up, beat her and raped her.

I don’t think so, r98. He had nothing to really gain by finally admitting he killed Tate, as it hindered his chances at parole rather than helped him. Atkins kept insisting she’d killed Sharon and many people believed her at the time. It was only later when Watson became a born-again Christian that he finally owned up to it.

And Atkins wasn’t the one who helped Beausoleil kill Hinman, it was Mary Brunner.

"Beaty fades?" Lord, she became a different person.

R94, Jon Peters--- with a beard-- was nice-looking and he was a hustler type like the character in Shampoo. He and Barbra were crazy about each other in the 70s. Barbra didn't go out with ugly guys.

Barbra Streisand WAS an ugly guy.

R44 Sebring had been married already. The marriage having ended not long before he met Sharon in '64.

R51 'he would've been into it' Where did you come up with that ? Bullshit.

R58 The hairstylist in SHAMPOO was a composite of several hairstylists. Warren Beatty was also friends with both Sebring & Tate and he (WB) was one of 3 friends who put up a 25k reward to anyone who could help bring the killers to justice. The other two family friends were Peter Sellers & Yul Brynner who was crazy about Sharon.

R63 Where do you get your information ? Initially Polanski tried to talk Sharon into aborting. He even made arrangements for her to fly to South America to have it done.

R74 Jay' nephew shows up at some of the parole proceedings; his last name is DiMaria I think. The Folgers have never spoken about the murders and will not. They are not the kind who would air their views on such a matter.

R82 Well, Jay's real name was THOMAS KUMMER

R89 Altobelli was hardly the original owner. The house was built in 1941 for actress Michelle Morgan. Altobelli purchased it in 1962; he was owner number 4. Altobelli didn't live there all 20 years after the murders. He was bought it to use as a rental property. Sometimes he'd stay in the main house and toehr times he would use the guest house.

R94 Lesley Ann Warren was well taken care of. Politics helped get her an undeserving Oscar for her cooperation once Babs set her eye on climber Jon Peters.

Speaking of Gene Shacove, the image below is of Shacove after her finished working on Sharon Tate's hair in 1963 before she knew Jay.

I meant "after he finished" not after her finished

Olivia was married to Dean Paul Martin who was also friends with Sharon Tate.

R104 Very interesting post . I had no idea that Yul Brenner was friends with Tate, I never would have guessed. I suppose Hollywood is (or was )almost like a small town in a way.

well, I don't understand how people can live in a house where multiple murders were committed. There was a gorgeous house in town but it stood unsold for years even when the price was slashed because it was a scene of multiple slayings. Someone finally bought it.

Lesley Ann Warren DOES NOT have an Oscar, tool at R104. She has a 1982 Oscar NOMINATION for "Victor/Victoria."

Since you're not even bright enough to double-check your "facts" with a simple Google search, I'm calling bullshit on your entire post.

Agree R108. BTW, R104 knows as little as the rest of the posters.

R108

Personally, I'd have no interest in purchasing such a property, I do not have any psychic abilities of which I am aware. When I was in my teens I became friends with a guy my age. First time I went over to his house, I got a bad vibe about the place. Eerie. I didn't say anything because I didn't want him to think I was nuts. Months later he told me that his parents had gotten a good deal on the house when they'd bought it a year earlier since it had been the scene of a murder/suicide. Previous owners were in their 60s. The wife was dying of cancer. Husband shot the wife in the head, then himself.

R110

Hardly. I am well versed on the subject.

If you were R112 you would not have make the mistakes you did in your post.

R113

I'll take the bait. Such as ?

"SUCH AS" LESLEY ANN WARREN NEVER GETTING A FUCKING OSCAR, CUNT!!!!!

God, why so angry R115 ?

Bad day ? Bad life ? No sex ? No life ?

Yikes!!! You sure pissed HER off, holy shite!!!!

I see. She's right about one thing: It wasn"t an Oscar, it was a Golden Globe that she won.

Girls, girls, you're all horrible.

R113

You said mistakeS. Was there another ? I mean aside of fucking with the likes of you ?

104 made a minor mistake about Warren , who was in fact nominated for an Oscar but evidently didn't win. That doesn't cancel out everything else they wrote or mean they are not well informed. It's really no biggie. Back on topic, please .

Smoke eye, with the chainsaw, in the hen house.

Jay once cut Steve Allen's hair on Steve's show that came from Hollywood in the early 60s. Professor Irwin Corey, wacky health nut Gypsy Boots, Belle Montrose (Steve's mother) and Sally Rand were frequently on the show.

Wasn't Sally Rand a big ole stripper who wasn't a slut?

[124] She was a fan dancer and quite bright and sweet and funny. I though her PR machine back in the 60s had her studying Physics at UCLA. But maybe I'm imagining that.

I think R115 is angry because: 01) R104's lapse in simple fact-checking in [italic]one[/italic] instance makes for some doubt as to the accuracy of his other claims/statements, and, 02) R115 had already mentioned this, but R104 did not address this error until R115 had a meltdown over it, 03) R115 should find something more significant to have a meltdown over.

Tarantino should have cast Rose Byrne in his movie. Yes I know there's an age discrepancy but the features are far more similar to Tates than Robbie's.

R126 = another silly queen who thinks getting one's facts straight in life is unimportant.

And is probably also R104.

That was not me at R115.

Jay was in Mondo Hollywood with Bobby Beausioel.

Rose Byrne does look more like Tate, but I don't think any actress has to look exactly like Sharon. What everyone remembers is that Sharon was a strikingly beautifl blonde, and Margot Robbie is definitely that.

There's a young, terrible actress on The Young and Restless. The girl who plays Abby looks a lot like Sharon Tate. Margot Robie is NOT in the beauty stakes to play Sharon. Not one bit.

There is a movie coming out by Quentin Tarantino about the murders and the story. It might provide incite into their relationships.

^"It might provide incite..."

Oh, dear.

R133 Its Tarantino, he's probably thinking about "what if Charlie had a second group out to watch the first group because of growing paranoia of Tex" or some other bs ala Basterds and the "well what if the furher was feeling down about the allies so he wanted to take in a film" hypothesis.

"And Atkins wasn’t the one who helped Beausoleil kill Hinman, it was Mary Brunner."

Indeed she did help kill him. She bragged about it in prison. FYI:

On July 25, 1969, Manson family members Bobby Beausoleil, Susan Atkins, and Mary Brunner paid Gary a visit. Manson was under the impression that Hinman had money in stocks and bonds, and that Gary had owned his house and cars. He sent the group to Hinman's house to convince Gary to join the family, which included turning over his assets. According to Beausoleil, the group visited Hinman because Gary had sold him some bad mescaline and Bobby wanted his money back. Whatever the motive was, the conflict lasted 3 days. During which, Charles Manson and Bruce Davis stopped by. As soon as he arrived, Manson raised a sword and quickly struck Hinman in the head, slicing Gary's left ear and face. Hinman asked Manson why they were doing this and requested him to take the others and leave. Manson and Davis immediately left in one of Hinman's cars while the others stayed behind. Mary and Susan stitched up his ear with dental floss while Gary, who didn't believe in violence, just kept on asking them to leave. It all ended on the 27th when Beausoleil finally killed Hinman, stabbing him in the chest twice. Bobby, Susan, and Mary took turns holding a pillow over his face. Beausoleil then wrote "POLITICAL PIGGY" and drew a paw print on the wall in Hinman's blood in an attempt to make authorities think the Black Panthers committed the murder. Gary died on the floor with his prayer beads in hand, chanting "Nam Myo Ho Renge Kyo Nam Myo Ho Renge Kyo", the chant of his faith.

Jay s dick looks slightly above average to me...........Terx Watson is the true monster in all of this/ yes Manson comes accross scary and dangerous in interviews but Watson pretty much hacked up everybody on both nights in 1969 and he enjoyed himlself....he said as much in his book he wrote. Krenwinkle was having a hard time stabbing to death Abagail as she kept hitting bone so Watson finished her off. He also stabbed to death Sharon after hanging her from the rafters as Sadie couldnt go thru with it.........she was all talk and lies/ Watson also stabbed to death Voytek 51 times and shot him and he shot and stabbed Jay. He shot Steven Parent at point blank range 4 times. He laughed that the victims were running around like chickens with their heads cut off............so charning that Tex watson.........lets pray he never gets out of the pen........

As to why Roman Polanski wasnt jealous of Jay.........Roman was a supreme egotist and narcissitic to the nth degree and Im sure he could never fathom Sharon would be interested in anybody but him. He was an awful husband, didnt want the baby in the first place and mostly left his pregnant wife to fend for herself the last 2 months of her pregnancy. I think right at the end Sharon realized her marriage was never going to work. SHe and Jay got along like great friends but I think his S and M kink even tho it was mild was hard for Sharon to get past. PS....one final tidbit.for all of Polanski s womanizing he has a small dick............fyi

Krenwinkel stabbed Folger repeatedly all on her own, until Watson joined in. They're all guilty.

And how do you know about Polanski's dick size, r137? Not that it has any bearing on anything.

Roman’s a narcissistic sociopath like Trump.

No, Polanski isn't remotely the same as Trump.

I think Robbie is prettier than Sharon Tate. Sharon had a square face and cow eyes.

r141, are you high?

Young Rose Byrne really did have the Sharon look. She's too old for the part now, of course.

Cold sober, R142. I'm not saying Tate was ugly, but I don't think she was better looking than Robbie. In any case, she wasn't such an iconic beauty that only a facial clone could play her. Beautiful and blonde is enough for any actress to embody Tate.

Tate hardly had cow eyes and a square face.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Sharon Tate was gloriously beautiful. Margot Robie is attractive.

Keira Knightley has something of a Sharon Tate look about her.

Good-looking women don't get much more bland and generic than Ms. Robbie. She's earthy rather than ethereal, too.

You can see the Keira Knightley resemblance more here, with Sharon darker-haired than normal.

Dark hair really changed Sharon's look.

Margot Robbie is perfect for the role. Keira and Rose Byrne are too thin, almost anorexic. Sharon had a more voluptuous figure.

Looks pretty beautiful to me, r146. Lucky we don't want to fuck any of these women, right?!

Tate had beautiful eyes.

Agreed, r154.

I have spent time in a home located very close to the Cielo Drive location. There is no way the neighbors didn't hear the screaming that night.

R156 why would they have ignored it though? And did you sense any weird vibes when you were living there?

re polanskis dick size....it wad written about in the sharon tate book by Greg King, ....................sharon tate and the manson murders. ........................It was a pretty extensively researched book and focuses quite a bit on sharon tate the person and not only the murders.

R151 She wore a dark brown wig for the two years she was on THE BEVERLY HILLBILLIES when she played Miss Hathaway's assistant, Miss Trego. Sharon was also on 2 other times where she played other characters and didn't use the wig.

R150 That's a red wig from one of her films.

R157 I don't know. Its extremely quiet there and there is really no street traffic. Any sound would be heard, especially terrified screams. Sometimes at night in the summer you can feel it in the air.

Greg King used to post on the Find A Death message board. I don't know if he still does.

R160

He does.

R156 The neighbors did report they heard screaming. Why they didn't call the police is another matter.

Jay Sebring's headstone includes his real and professional name: Thomas J. Kummer - Jay Sebring - Son-Brother

Sebring was quite handsome.

R162

I recall having read that since the house was in Bel Air many canyons that they couldn't pinpoint where the screams had come from. Half dozen calls came in reporting screams but none could say exactly where they'd come from. Bugliosi's book mentioned that the canyons play tricks with sounds. Sharon's closest neighbors heard nothing; some miles away heard some of the carnage going down.

R165 Wow that's a very creepy explanation about the sounds but that could make sense. That's a stunningly gorgeous photo by the way.

I didn't say that Tate wasn't attractive, R153. But I don't think she was more beautiful than Robbie, particularly given Tate's overly sharp bone structure and too-large eyes.

Tate was a very attractive woman, but there's something about her proportions that have always struck me as a bit off. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Didn't William Garretson, the Cielo Drive caretaker, say that he heard the screams that night but was so used to screams from the wild parties thrown there, he didn't think anything was wrong?

R168

He did. If you ever saw him in an interview, he appeared to have been of very low intelligence. Maybe drug damaged, or just low IQ to start with. He died about 2, 3 yrs ago. I think he was in his mid to late 60s.

Tate's mother voiced her doubts over Garrettson' claims> "How the shit could he have not heard anything ?" Garrettson changed gears over time. Initially said he heard nothing and expounded on the night as the years passed. Killer Krenwinkel claimed to have gone in the guesthouse and finding no one leading some to speculate that Garrettson hid elsewhere on the property til all was safe.

Bobby Beausoleil is up for parole and this time the prison recommended that he be let out.

Maybe Kenneth Anger still wants him ?

Vintage pictures of 10050 Cielo Drive in its early days, when it has just been built by actress Michelle Morgan.

You can see what a lovely and charming house it was at one time.

Cielo Drive in late 1993, right before its demolition. Sad how it had deteriorated since Morgan's day.

Interior shots start at about 3:45. In all the years the house existed, they never did change the kitchen cabinets.

God, Sharon was beautiful.

Last summer I read the memoir of Nancy Bacon, who made the Hollywood scene in the 60s before descending into alcoholism in the 70s & finally getting her act together to become a writer. Anyhow, she says she knew Jay Sebring and describes a night she went back with him to his house shortly before the murders (I think the house may have been one that Jean Harlow had owned -- maybe the one where Paul Bern committed suicide (or maybe not suicide). She says he confided to her that he had a secret and would she not judge him? She had been around & seen a lot and didn't freak out easily, but she says he blindfolded her, strung her up, and teased a knife up & down her body while sniffing poppers. IIRC, he had also changed into some kind of dominatrix outfit. She eventually got him to let her down & he collapsed into tears as she left.

Who knows how much of it is true but it's a dishy read. She says she dated Hugh O'Brien and Rod Taylor (whom she describes as very sweet and a great lover). She also claims to have had a threesome with Mason Williams (the "Classical Gas" guy) and Tommy Smothers! She was with Smothers for a while.

The book is called "Legends and Lipstick" and is free on Amazon w/ Kindle Unlimited (maybe Prime Reading, too, I don't know).

Sebring did live in Paul Bern's haunted old house. Legend has it that Sharon was staying there by herself one night when they were dating, and was awakened by an apparition of Bern. She ran downstairs in a panic and saw a bloody, hanging ghost on the stairs. A premonition of her own sad fate? Many think so.

R173

I believe it steadily depreciated after the murders. Morgan lived in it about 5 years and she later said that she didn't like being alone there at night as she recalled hearing noises in the living room even though she knew she was alone. Lillian Gish lived there around 1949-50; other famous occupants include Cary Grant with then wife Dyan Cannon in the mid 60s, followed by Samantha Eggar who lived there in late 1966-67. Actress Candace Bergen who had attended Tate & Polanski's wedding reception lived there with her boyfriend Terry Melcher after Eggar. Bergen & Melcher were the occupants just before Tate & Polanski. Bergen and Melcher moved out in December 1968; the Polanskis signed the lease on 2/12/1969 and moved in right afterwards. Roman only lived in the house about 1 month before returning to his place in London. She flew out of LAX on the 24th of March heading to Italy to film her last movie, THE 13 CHAIRS. Rudi Altobelli who owned the Cielo Drive property and was staying in the guest cottage with his caretaker boy, Garrettson had the seat next to Sharon on the flight. It was on the previous night that manson allegedly came onto the property. manson was walking around out front while Sharon, Voytek, Gibby & a friend of Sharon' named Hatami were eating dinner. Hatami went to confront the stranger. Hatami couldn't recall later who manson had said he was looking for but he (Hatami) said he told manson that whoever it was he didn't live here and that maybe he was in the guest house at the rear of the property. Hatami, an Iranian whose English was limited didn't know the word for pathway and inadvertently may have insulted manson by instructing him to use the 'alley'.

On the flight to Rome, Sharon had asked Altobelli if "that creepy looking guy who had come back there last night". He had. Altobelli however knew who manson was as he'd been on the property before. Altobelli recalled that manson was looking for Terry Melcher and he told manson that he no longer lived there. manson wanted his current address and Altobelli who knew it, lied and said he really didn't know and to "don't come back, nor disturb the tenants at the main house."

Candace Bergen told a tale about how while she & Melcher were living there, she had a couple of free days and would sleep late each day. She got up late one morning and went out to the kitchen to grab some coffee and manson was in the kitchen. No one else was in the house. She recalled that she tried to keep her calm, asked him who he was etc and that manson said he was looking for Terry. Terry wasn't there. Bergen kept it cordial to get him out of there but once Terry arrived home she blasted him and told him to make it known to all of 'friends' and everyone else that theirs was not going to be an open door policy to the place.

I wouldn't have a problem with Leslie Van Houten getting out. She didn't actually kill anyone: Rosemary LaBianca was dead when Leslie stabbed her, and they all knew it. She wasn't along at all on the night of the Tate killings. 50 years in prison for mutilating a corpse and being accessory to murder seems sufficient.

But Tex Watson and Pat Krenwinkel should never get out. I don't know enough about Beausoleil's crimes to judge in his case.

R174 Nancy Bacon was also allegedly (and not by her) the one woman who Paul Newman cheated on Woodward with. I'd heard that the two had an affair for several years>

The 'Bern/Harlow' house over on Easton Drive belonged to Milo Frank & his wife, 50s actress Sally Forrest when Sebring lived there. He rented it for over 5 years. Tales vary as to whether he wanted to purchase it. One thing for certain is that he was allegedly intrigued by the house's dark history.

R177

Beausoleil was involved in the Gary Hinman murder, the month before the Tate & LaBianca killings.

I wonder, if Altobelli had given Manson the new address, if Manson would have sent his murder-zombies after Melcher instead of Melcher's old house.

Although, judging by R176's post, Manson seemed to have an odd fixation on Cielo Drive. It did have that isolated, rustic look which seemed to appeal to Manson (hence his squatting at Spahn and Barker Ranch). Another house Manson greatly admired, and used to tell visitors was his, was Dennis Wilson's rustic mansion (see picture). Perhaps Cielo Drive was the kind of house Charlie would have liked to own and fill with pretty girls, hence his obsessive need to be a rock star and his rage when it became clear it wouldn't happen.

That's right: they cut that poor guy's ear off and stabbed him to death after he'd been so welcoming and gracious to them.

Nope: no parole for Beausoleil.

10050 Cielo Drive looked a bit tired even in 1969, considering it was a house regularly rented by celebs. Maybe people didn't care as much about decor back then.

[quote] Weren't they wildly jealous of one another?

No, they weren’t.

Next......

Here's a nice little grisly tidbit: Trent Reznor took the front door of the Cielo Drive house with him when he left, and installed it as the front door of his New Orleans studio.

I once rented a dvd of a Hollywood film (I think it was a major studio release) and it depicted the Tate murders, i'm blanking on the title maybe "The Family?" anyways, I watched the beginning but just couldn't bring myself to watch the killing scenes.

There was a great mini series called Helter Skelter. In the late 70s, I think.

Yes R186 the Lorimar CBS tv movie of Helter Skelter ran over 2 nights and got record ratings for a tv movie. The music alone was so creepy. They used the actual home of the LaBiancas in Silverlake for filming.

It's odd how often 10050 Cielo was filmed, photographed years before the murders. I bought an retrospective of the old Sixteen magazine and there was an article on Mark Lindsay of Paul Revere and the Raiders from 1966 - he was posing at a gate that looked familiar and later I figured out it was 10050 because Lindsay rented the house when managed by Terry Melcher.

R182 (And) Fro the most part, the house came furnished. Sharon & Roman didn't have much in the way of furniture as they were always moving. Their home in London was filled mostly with Roman's things as he had purchased several prior to the killings. Before the two rented the place on Cielo Drive they'd lived at Patty Duke's house on Summit Ridge. They had wanted to but it from her but Patty decided to move back into it and advised that she wasn't going to renew their lease. They'd also lived at the Chateau Marmont for a while and prior to that had rented the beach house where Cary Grant & Randolph Scott had co-habitated.

That's right, R178! I got so wrapped up in the other gossip, I forgot about the Newman story. She said she met him on the Butch Cassidy set when she was sent there to do a story. She says they carried on for a couple of years and he gave her several nice gifts (jewelry iirc) but that she eventually called it quits because he was so drunk much of the time that had a difficult time getting it up. If how she describes him as accurate, he seemed quite immature and sad.

Things were a lot different decor-wise in 1969, R182

Wall to wall carpet was in, wood floors were out. Wall to wall was touted as being softer on the feet, easier to vacuum, more uniform looking rather than a wood floor with an area rug here and another area rug there. My mother covered her maple wood floors with wall to wall because she didn’t want to seem “poor” to all the neighbors who had wall to wall.

Framed posters were very “in.” I wish I had a nickel for every Don Quixote poster shown on the walls in my mom’s decor books. French posters, Italian movie posters, posters touting museum exhibits were considered very cool. Younger people had posters saying “Love” and “War is not healthy for children and other living things.”

Acoustic guitars were used as decor accessories. If there was a fireplace in a decor mag, there was an acoustic guitar leaning up against it and ithe guitar was often set atop a large, colored pillow. Big reel to reel tape recorders were also popular, usually placed on the top shelf of a bookcase or on a wall shelf.

1969 was the height of counter culture and my big sister’s married friends often had an American flag tacked up on a wall. Jimi Hendrix posters were also cool, as were posters of Bob Dylan. A poster of Dylan with multicolored hair seemed ubiquitous.

People didn’t flash their wealth back then because greed was bad. They didn’t spend hundreds of thousands of dollars putting waterfalls and spas in their pools surrounded with Italian tiled patios. Just lounging by a pool made you wealthy.

Best of all, our culture was not saturated with celebrity culture back then. There were movie magazines and fan magazines but celeb stuff wasn’t reported as “news.” You wanted to see celebrities, you watched Johnny Carson or a game show like Hollywood squares or Match Game. Celebs didnt yet have clothing lines, readily available sex tapes, their own perfumes/colognes. That all started a few years later.

Reznor's fascination with the Tate murders makes him a bit of a basic bitch.

Polanski had a fling with Michelle Phillips- did Sharon and Michelle stay friends after it ended?

R192 I don't know if Sharon knew. Michelle did tell John about it and after the murders Polanski wondered if John could have been behind the murders as revenge.

Cielo Drive, with its many, many famous renters, must have been one big flashing sign of his Hollywood failure to Charlie. No wonder he told Tex and the girls to go up there and kill anyone they found living there. He wasn't trying to kill anybody in particular but Hollywood in general, stab it right through its beautiful, superficial heart. In that sense, Sharon Tate was the perfect victim: A beautiful blonde actress whose limited fame allowed her to stand in for so many other beautiful blonde actresses who would never, ever fuck Charlie. (Even though she was quite happy to fuck another short, ugly man, the difference being that Roman was talented and famous in a way that Charlie would never be.)

The Tate Murders were a violently symbolic act on Manson's part. And though he didn't kill Hollywood, he did change it forever. The all-access party was well and truly over after that: Scruffy hippies would never get so close to the Beautiful People again. You can trace a straight line from the severed telephone lines at Cielo Drive to the thick velvet rope strung across the door of Studio 54.

R194 that was a great post. Truly.

Nah, Charlie was taking out Voytek Frykowski, a rival drug dealer and he didn’t care who else was in the house. The more famous his victims ,the better.

That's completely wrong information, r196, you boob.

He wasn't trying to kill anybody in particular but Hollywood in general, stab it right through its beautiful, superficial heart.

You can trace a straight line from the severed telephone lines at Cielo Drive to the thick velvet rope strung across the door of Studio 54.

MARY, r194!

Polanski wasn't ugly back then. He was nebbishy but not flat-out ugly.

"Polanski wasn't ugly back then. He was nebbishy but not flat-out ugly."

I always thought he was unattractive, even when young. He was very short, and he had the face of a rodent. He always had the look of a rat about him. How could Sharon fuck THAT? Or any other woman for that matter?

He wasn't ugly.

Read Polanski’s autobiography. He went through some awful things and survived. He wasn’t some vapid Hollywood pretty boy.

That freewheeling hippie culture referred to earlier was wiped out after the killings. At least in Beverly Hills. As Mama Cass said "Boy, is it over"

I read Polanski's memoir. It's totally self-serving; he's quite a narcissist. He talks about the incident with the 13 year old girl, making it seem as though it was quite natural and normal for him (in his forties at the time) to be having sex with a 13 year old. He said this of the 13 year old child:

"There was no doubt of Sandra's experience and lack of inhibition. She spread herself and I entered her. She wasn't unresponsive. Yet, when I asked her softly if she was liking it she resorted to her favorite expression" "It's all right."

the caretaker on the property on the night of the murders claimed he didnt hear anything. I dont think I believe it. He was in the guest house which is about 100 feet behind the pool. Behind the guest house furthest away from the main house at the extreme southern point of the property was a fairly good sized level grassy area and then it just dropped off to the canyon below. My hunch is when Garrretson did hear the screams and gunshots he took the dogs (ALtobellis) and hid back there for hrs. The guest house had 4 exit doors and at least 2 on the south side. He was really not a bright guy and he had a heavy drug problem but he seemed to be a mild harmless guy. Altobelli picked him up hitchhiking probably as a guess because Garreston use to hitch hike shirtless and had a nice body. Altobelli saw that he was good with dogs and would be somewhat dependable on the property and had him house sit for ALtonbellis extended European stay of 6 or more months. After the murders they did tests on the decibel level of gunshots from the main house to the guest house with the guest house stereo turned up to the level Garretson had it that night and the results showed it was possible not to hear it. I dont know sounds and accustics well but supposedly the canyons play tricks on sounds and the people that did hear a commotion that night were not nearby neighbors but further away.

R174 Yikes Bacon's story is pretty out there, I wonder if it's true. Interesting about him collapsing in tears, he sounds pretty messed up mentally. It's always tough to know the truth in cases like this where the people involved aren't around to defend themselves.

It's naive to think that house symbolized Hollywood, and it was just a random symbolic attack on Hollywood.

I studied this case for many, many hours. Here are some very important anomalies:

1) Bugliosi was a corrupt prosecutor in Los Angeles, which is famous for prosecutorial misconduct. In the years after getting famous with his cover-up book "Helter Skelter", Bugliosi was revealed to be a raging pathological liar and an all around complete scumbag.

Bugliosi became convinced that his new child wasn't his, and that his wife must have had an affair with the milk man at the time of conception. Bugliosi used his government access to track down and stalk the former milk man. It was completely delusional, aggressive, corrupt behavior, and Bugliosi went to elaborate extremes to cover his tracks and weave a web of lies.

Around this same time (early 70s), Bugliosi impregnated his mistress, and beat the crap out of her after she refused to get the baby aborted. She called the cops, and it was all reported. Then Bugliosi broke into her house again and forced her to sign a statement saying that she lied about him beating her up. Bugliosi was running for state Attorney General at the time, and needed a clean record. Luckily these two stories of Bugliosi's scumbag behavior came out right before the election, and Bugliosi didn't get elected Attorney General of California.

Bugliosi went on many years later to write a huge book about the JFK assassination, defending the absurd official narrative. We know that Bugliosi was wildly corrupt and basically evil in his personal life, and we know that he was capable of weaving elaborate lies in his own personal life and legal affairs. We know that Bugliosi wrote a super-long book about JFK, a web of elaborate lies that defend the official narrative that Oswald was the lone assassination.

All of this means that Bugliosi is completely unreliable in regards to anything relating to the Manson Murders. His prosecutorial conduct is unreliable, and his best selling book about the Manson Murders is unreliable.

2) There are big clues about intelligence agencies and large-scale drug dealing written all over this case.

Sebring was ex-Navy, and his growing hair salon chain was financed in part by Sharon Tate's father, who was a military intelligence big shot (assistant chief of staff for intelligence at the Sixth Region Army Air Defense Command at Fort Baker). In fact, after the murders, Sharon's father opened up his own line of hair salons, called Tate Hair Emporium or something like that.

Sebring was a big-time drug dealer and a hair salon chain owner, financed by Tate the Army Intelligence big shot. Hair salons are cash-based businesses, so easy to launder lots of drug money. Look into Vidal Sassoon himself, he was a Mossad operative. The dumb movie Don't Mess With the Zohan dealt with this. Sassoon was also an heir to the Sassoon family that ran the opium trade in China. So powerful that they got the British Army to fight The Opium Wars for them.

Folger was an heiress to the Folgers coffee fortune, and her family were obviously elites within the US establishment and secret societies. They were members of Bohemian Grove, and they started a separate secret society when they felt Bohemian Grove was getting too crowded or common.

Folger Coffee did huge business in Vietnam, and their corporate/land interests were a consideration in the Vietnam War. Also, the US Army was importing tons of heroin from Vietnam, inside body bags and Army planes. Folger's Coffee bags would have also made ideal transportation concealment.

Abby Folger's boyfriend Frykowski was a big-time drug dealer, just like Sebring. And in Polanski's police interrogation, available on Youtube, Polanski notes that back in Poland Frykowski's guardian or mentor was the #1 intelligence agency figure in Poland. Frykowski had extremely deep intelligence agency ties.

(to be continued)

r206 if that story is true about Sebring, it opens up the possibility that Sebring had something to do with the tying up and stabbing that went down at Cielo Drive, even if Sebring ended up dead at some point.

Because as I explain above in r207, Bugliosi is the most unreliable narrator imaginable.

(Continued from r207)

Anyway, Folger, Tate, Sebring, and Frykowski all had deep ties to intelligence agencies and large scale drug dealing. There's something very significant about that, especially since the LaBiancas were big-time drug dealers as well, and the Hinman murder was drug related too.

You're telling me that the Manson Family were on a spree of killing rival drug dealers, but it's pure coincidence that the Cielo Drive house was full of big-time, well-connected drug dealers?

No way.

Bugliosi led the cover-up, starting with the prosecution and then the novel Helter Skelter.

It would have been the same thing if Jeb Bush and W Bush had been killed over a big drug deal at a Miami or Panama airport in the 1980s. The prosecutor would have been a Deep State operative, and an elaborate narrative would have been created to explain why Pablo and Diego killed the Bush Boys for no reason.

No matter if any of that is true r207. Nobody deserves to be butchered like the victims were.

I don’t care if they were drug mules for El Chapo

r210 true, but I want the truth!

R207 is crazy. Every thread about the Manson murders has the same crazy rear his ugly head and spout insanity. Poor Sharon Tate! Sweet, gentle, heavy with child Sharon Tate "had deep ties to intelligence agencies and large scale drug dealing?" Bugliosi was "basically evil?" Tate's father "opened up his own line of hair salons, called Tate Hair Emporium or something like that?" HAHAHHAHA! Oh my sides!

And R211 if you "want the truth" I suggest you not believe the crazy.

Notice how r212 makes a mockery of any realistic analysis of the events. Sharon's father was Vice Chief of Staff at a huge Army Intelligence base, and he drug lord boyfriend Sebring was being financed by Sharon's father, but just ignore all that. Just ridicule it and pretend they were all killed in an act of symbolic revenge on Hollywood.

What I said doesn't even imply that Sharon was a bad person.

A "realistic analysis of the events"?

That has to be the funniest statement you've made yet, r213. It wasn't a symbolic attack on Hollywood. It was a random attack based on Manson's psychopathology and his insane fixation on revenge for Terry Melcher snubbing him, you fucking moron. There's always a clown like you to amuse us on these types of threads.

Anybody interested in a really deep dive into related matter should read this book, full text below. In my estimation it's all connected. CIA, MK-Ultra, Manson, Jim Jones. Manson was a prisoner in Vacaville State Prison along with Sybionese Liberation Army leader DeFreeze, at the exact time that the CIA was doing MK-Ultra mind control experiments on prisoners.

The novel and movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest were based on Ken Kesey's real-life job working in a San Fran Bay CIA/MK-Ultra mental hospital where the patients were experimented on.

"The novel is a direct product of Kesey's time working the graveyard shift as an orderly at a mental health facility in Menlo Park, California.[9] Not only did he speak to the patients and witness the workings of the institution, but he voluntarily took psychoactive drugs, including mescaline and LSD, as part of Project MKUltra."

JFK assassin or "assassin" Sirhan Sirhan was given "therapy" by the Los Angeles head of MK-Ultra experiments.

Charles Manson was let out of prison, against his wishes, with the push from a powerful Beverly Hills lawyer. Charles Manson then moved down to Los Angeles, just weeks before the RFK assassination.

And who did RFK dine with the night before his assassination? Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski.

Was Manson an alternate patsy for an RFK assassination attempt?

Was Jim Jones' People's Temple basically a privatization of the officially terminated MK-Ultra experiments?

Was the CIA interested in testing and designing drugs that would make black populations docile and prevent more race riots?

r214 and what about the other drug dealers who Manson had killed in the days before the drug dealers were killed on Cielo Drive? What did they symbolize?

Is it just a coincidence that all of the victims of their murder spree were drug dealers?

Lol, keep trusting Bugliosi to tell you the truth. That guy was just as pathologically narcissistic as Roman Polanski, with an equal gift for creating elaborate lies.

Nowadays, look at the Bronfman heiresses running an international sex trafficking brainwashing cult, complete with schools for children, while one of the Bronfman girls was also appointed head of the US-Libya Chamber of Commerce after the Libya regime change. And Bronfman's husband was being groomed to replace Qaddafi as ruler of Libya.

And what are the odds that Libya is now an epicenter of human trafficking, with the sex trafficking Bronfman heiress in charge of the US-Libya Chamber of Commerce?

And notice how the media not only refuses to report on the new, widespread slave trade in Libya, but they also refuse to connect Libya to the NXIVM sex cult that the Bronfman sisters were running and financing.

Abigail Folger was just one of many elite heiresses who got wrapped up with intelligence agencies and international intrigue. Lisa Layton was another. She was the German-American banking heiress who financed the People's Temple Agricultural Project, which her children helped run. Deborah Layton was Jim Jones' banker, and Larry Layton was in charge of the armed guards at Jonestown. It was Larry who killed Congressman Ryan on the air strip.

"Is it just a coincidence that all of the victims of their murder spree were drug dealers?"

You;re a liar. A crazy liar. Don't you ever get tired of making a damn fool of yourself?

I guess Heiresses just love getting mixed up in spy craft and international intrigue. And Wikipedia always downplays and covers up and denies the mountains of evidence:

Sara Bronfman (born 1976) is a humanitarian and human rights activist. She is the daughter of the billionaire philanthropist and former Seagram chairman Edgar Bronfman Sr.[1]

Contents

1tBackground

2tWork in Libya

3tInvolvement in NXIVM

4tNon-Profit Work

r218 LaBiancas were millionaire drug dealers, Hinman was a drug dealer, Sebring was a drug lord, and Frykowski was a drug lord.

And the Manson Family were a drug dealing gang.

The NXIVM sex trafficking cult is referred to by Wikipedia as "A multi-level marketing organization by Wikipedia. All they do is cover up for the Deep State.

And the brainwashing techniques and cheesy "technology" and "levels" and "enlightenment" gimmicks are just like Scientology. Charles Manson was a devout Scientologist. He was converted in prison, and he was even an auditor in prison. Ever notice how nobody talks about the Scientology connection to Manson? Not even the anti-Scientology documentary mentioned that Manson was a Scientologist.

If the Bronfman girls had been alive back then, they would have been running Scientology. I wonder what kind of stuff Abigail Folger was getting up to, besides dating a Polish drug lord with deep intelligence agency connections.

Folger was "a social worker".

Connected to r219: Good summary of the basics of the NXIVM cult that the Bronfman heiresses were running. I don't know exactly what Abigail Folger's deal was, but I suspect she was up to some intrigue of her own. Remember that Polanski was well known for being a kiddy porn producer long before he got busted making kiddie porn and drugging and raping his last victim before his arrest. And Sebring was obviously into some really demented shit. So was Manson and company, they raped babies. What was Folger doing dating a drug lord and hanging out at the house of a child pornographer and with Sebring the bondage fetishist?

They had their own kinky NXIVM-type party scene going on.

The Insane Truth About The NXIVM Pyramid Scheme Revealed To Be Even More Dangerous and Disturbing...

You think it's a coincidence that Tarantino is directing the Manson movie?

Quentin Tarantino defends rapist Roman Polanski, calls victim a liar & 13 year old party girl

Roman Polanski is now facing a 5th accusation of sexual assault against a child

The long history of Roman Polanski’s child rape charges, from 1977 to the present.

I bet Polanski raped Tatum O'Neal

Here's a photo of Polanski and Ryan O'Neal doing some kind of satanic ritual

Tatum O’Neal: I Was Sexually Assaulted Multiple Times As A Child

In her post, O’Neal said all the assaults were by older men who she thought “were safe.”

Because both her mother, actress Joanna Moore, and father Ryan O’Neal struggled with alcohol and addictions, she was not closely supervised. “When your parents are off getting drunk or high, they are not watching what happens to their children. I suffered years of abuse, both emotional and sexual.”

One more thing to think about. Sebring being bi/gay would have allowed him to advance on the fast track in the Navy. He could have quickly rose into the ranks of Navy Intelligence/CIA, just based on his willingness/eagerness to partake in the secret society sex parties. And there would be no trace of this advancement, just like the "former Marine" who was arrested in Russia recently on espionage charges. That guy was a spy for sure, and all his military record shows is "former marine".

Sebring was "former Navy", being financed by Sharon's father Paul Tate, who was a top Army Intelligence officer.

Sebring was likely indeed an intelligence operative, just like Vidal Sassoon was.

Amazing that the Manson gang never mentioned any that all their victims were nefarious drug dealers and spies and that was their motive.

Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!

r228 yes amazing that the Manson gang preferred to get out of prison some day, rather than die in jail.

So funny that criminals wouldn't admit to all of their crimes.

Here's the limited list of Vidal Sassoon's military/intelligence activities that Wikipedia will admit to. Everything else is off the record:

Wartime activities At the age of 17, although he had been too young to serve in World War II, he became the youngest member of the 43 Group, a Jewish veterans' underground organisation which broke up fascist meetings in East London.[12][13] The Daily Telegraph calls him an "anti-fascist warrior-hairdresser" whose aim was to prevent Sir Oswald Mosley's movement from spreading "messages of hatred" in the period following World War II.[12]

In 1948, at the age of 20, he joined the Haganah (which shortly afterwards became the Israeli Defence Forces) and fought in the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, which began after Israel declared statehood.[13][14] During an interview, he described the year he spent training with the Israelis as "the best year of my life," and recalled how he felt:

When you think of 2,000 years of being put down and suddenly you are a nation rising, it was a wonderful feeling. There were only 600,000 people defending the country against five armies, so everyone had something to do.

R229, you think it would have damaged their case to say they targeted drug dealers and spies for death rather than help their case?

Oh my sides!

r231 they targeted rival drug dealers. That would not have gone over well. Keep laughing, we all know it's a nervous laughter.

No, honey at r232, it’s hearty laughter, directed right at you.

Remember the movie Wag the Dog?

"Wag the Dog is a 1997 black comedy film[1] where a spin doctor and a Hollywood producer fabricate a war to distract voters from a presidential sex scandal. "

It's based on Polanski's close friend and benefactor Robert Evans, the guy who hired Polanski to direct Rosemary's Baby and later, Chinatown.

Why was a movie about a CIA operative Hollywood producer based on Robert Evans? Because Robert Evans was a CIA operative. He was also very close friends with Henry Kissinger, the CIA/Deep State/Rockefeller-groomed big shot.

So Polanski was a Satanic pedophile, hired by a satanic Robert Evans to make a satanic movie about a woman who gets brain-washed and impregnated by a satanic cult.

Oh, and Polanski helped get Sharon Tate cast in a Satanic film as well.

Charles Manson was Satanic, all his Manson Family killers were Satanic.

The whole thing reeks of satanic secret societies, intelligence agencies, and large scale drug dealing and mind control.

Oh, and Robert Evans (who people called Satan), barely escaped being charged for the Cotton Club Murder, when Evans and some co-producers had another co-producer Roy Radin killed. And Radin was a top NYC Satanist, in charge of the Satanic cult that Son of Sam David Berkowitz was a member of.

Remember that the Son of Sam murders were all blamed on one lone wolf, and the Satanic drug cult was never investigated or reported on.

Also, David Berkowitz said that he knew who the Zodiac Killer was. Well, it turns out that the probable Zodiac Killer was William Mentzer, the Hollywood bodyguard who was one of the hitmen in the Cotton Club Murder of Roy Radin.

DO YOU SEE WHAT A SMALL CIRCLE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

Oh, and remember Robert Durst, the mega-millionaire real estate heir who was a serial killer. He was a Satanist too, but he's depicted as a lone nut. He traveled in the same exact Hollywood circles that we're discussing here.

Full text of a great book, Programmed to Kill, by Dave McGowan. Just read the first 3-4 chapters and you'll get the idea that a lot of these Manson types and serial killers are not quite what they seem. And remember that the Night Stalker Richard Ramirez was also an admitted Satanist, just like Manson and Son of Sam David Berkowitz. Funny how nobody ever looks into the organizations that these killers were part of. They're always dismissed as lone nuts:

"he's depicted as a lone nut."

r234, you never spoke truer words--about yourself. I guess it only makes sense that yet another thread on Manson and his victims would be coopted by yet another conspiracy theorist.

So long, thread.

From the Programmed to Kill book at r235:

"Alfred Kinsey, who claimed in his notorious late-1940s/early-1950s reports on human sexuality that children “are sexual from birth.” The professor was, oddly enough, another devoted disciple of Aleister Crowley. Kinsey died shortly after paying a visit to Crowley’s Thelema Abbey in Sicily with filmmaker and fellow occultist Kenneth Anger—who was the roommate and probable lover of Manson Family member Bobby Beausoleil...but we will get to that later."

This conspiracy nut just ruined a perfectly good thread.

Is there any possibility whatsoever of this thread getting back on topic ? And whoever is posting the conspiracy stuff, everybody is entitled to their own opinion but can you please just start your own separate thread?

I believe it was Kenneth Anger who directed Bobby Beausoleil in a Satanic art film shot at the Church of Satan in San Francisco. This was right at the same time that Manson got out of jail and joined the Church of Satan and met Bobby B and took Bobby B with him to Los Angeles.

And remember, Manson was not just a Satanist but also a Scientologist. Scientology founder L Ron Hubbard was a huge Satanist and devotee of Alistair Crowley, just like Kenneth Anger.

And didn't Kenneth Anger write the book Mondo Hollywood, that turned into a movie that featured Jay Sebring?

Kenneth Anger - Lucifer Rising

Lucifer Rising is a short film by director Kenneth Anger. The film was completed in 1972 but was only widely distributed in 1980. Anger began filming around 1966, hiring a young musician named Bobby Beausoleil to act and compose the soundtrack. The film was abandoned in 1967 because Anger claimed the film footage had been stolen by Beausoleil. (Beausoleil and others said that Anger had simply spent all the money for the film). Anger then used some of the existing footage in another short film, Invocation of My Demon Brother. Beausoleil was convicted of killing Gary Hinman under the orders of Charles Manson in 1970. Anger began filming again several years later, with British singer Marianne Faithfull appearing in the film. Jimmy Page was brought in to record the soundtrack, but after he had a falling out with Anger, he was replaced by Beausoleil, who wrote and recorded the music in prison.

* Kenneth Anger - The Magus

Bobby Beausoleil - Himself

* Donald Cammell - Osiris

* Marianne Faithfull - Lilith

* Myriam Gibril - Isis

Chris Jagger - Man in Yellow Tunic

* Jimmy Page - Man Holding Stella of Revelation "

Jay Sebring was in Mondo Hollywood. Anger wrote Hollywood Babylon, different. Below is the Jay Sebring clip from the Mondo Hollywood film. You're welcome

Hollywood Babylon is a book by avant-garde filmmaker Kenneth Anger which details the sordid scandals of many famous and infamous Hollywood denizens from the 1900s to the 1950s. First published in the U.S. in 1965, it was banned ten days later and was not republished until 1975. Upon its second release, The New York Times said of it, "If a book such as this can be said to have charm, it lies in the fact that here is a book without one single redeeming merit."

How did Sharon end up naked while being murdrred? Everyone else had their clothes on.

I know Jay guest starred in a couple TV shows (Batman and the Virginian ) . I wonder if he had any wider acting aspirations , he certainly had connections to many actor director types.

"How did Sharon end up naked while being murdrred? Everyone else had their clothes on."

She wasn't naked. She was wearing a bikini bra and panties, her normal attire in hot weather. Photos of her bloody and dead and wearing her bikini bra and panties are available for viewing on the internet.

r243 I wish I knew. It's definitely weird that Sebring's kink was tying girls up and slicing them with a knife. And then Sharon is tied up and sliced with a knife along with the rest of them.

"Hollywood Babylon" was full of inaccuracies but it was a fun read. It was fiction mixed with fact, as all gossip tends to be. It also had a lot of gross pictures, which are always morbidly interesting. I read it when I was about 14; it introduced me to a lot of silent film stars I'd never heard of. I've always found the era of silent film fascinating.

"It's definitely weird that Sebring's kink was tying girls up and slicing them with a knife. "

He never sliced anybody with a knife.Only the Manson killers did that. Poor Jay Sebring! He's been lied about almost as much as poor Sharon Tate.

You youngsters of course know that NO ONE knew who the hell Sharon Tate was until she was DEAD, yes?

r248 that actress/star fucker said that Sebring blindfolded her, tied her up, and started slicing her with a knife. After she begged to be untied, he started crying.

Sebring also literally cut people all day for a living.

Jay Sebring also discovered Bruce Lee, and suggested him to the producers of The Green Hornet, apparently

Sharon Tate At Jay Sebring's Easton Drive Residence

Jay Sebring's funeral: Roman Polanski arrives

To Tell the Truth - Jay Sebring, high-end barber; PANEL: Barry Nelson (Jan 28, 1963)

In that video at r254, you can see from his resume that he was already well established as the top hair stylist in Hollywood. By 1969 he was turning into more of a mogul, with a chain of salons growing rapidly.

"On Thanksgiving of 1964, Sharon met Hollywood hair stylist Jay Sebring at a party thrown by the owner of the Whiskey A-Go-Go. The two hit it off quite well, almost immediately becoming inseparable. He gave her the royal treatment like only a man of his refinement could. The two did everything together, whether it was eating at the best restaurants, attending various Hollywood parties, or experimenting with psychedelic drugs like LSD. Sharon's parents were quite impressed with Sebring; both seemed to agree that he treated Sharon well."

Bobby Beausoleil Granted Parole Thursday, January 3rd, 2019

r247 maybe I'll check it out some time.

"That actress/star fucker said that Sebring blindfolded her, tied her up, and started slicing her with a knife. After she begged to be untied, he started crying."

You're a liar, totally fucked in the head, totally out of touch with reality. I think you're one of the Manson family.

r258 see r174

"Last summer I read the memoir of Nancy Bacon, who made the Hollywood scene in the 60s before descending into alcoholism in the 70s & finally getting her act together to become a writer. Anyhow, she says she knew Jay Sebring and describes a night she went back with him to his house shortly before the murders (I think the house may have been one that Jean Harlow had owned -- maybe the one where Paul Bern committed suicide (or maybe not suicide). She says he confided to her that he had a secret and would she not judge him? She had been around & seen a lot and didn't freak out easily, but she says he blindfolded her, strung her up, and teased a knife up & down her body while sniffing poppers. IIRC, he had also changed into some kind of dominatrix outfit. She eventually got him to let her down & he collapsed into tears as she left.

Who knows how much of it is true but it's a dishy read. She says she dated Hugh O'Brien and Rod Taylor (whom she describes as very sweet and a great lover). She also claims to have had a threesome with Mason Williams (the "Classical Gas" guy) and Tommy Smothers! She was with Smothers for a while.

The book is called "Legends and Lipstick" and is free on Amazon w/ Kindle Unlimited (maybe Prime Reading, too, I don't know)."

Abby Folger was financing the expansion of Jay Sebring's salon chain, with the support and approval of her billionaire family (adjusted for inflation)

"With her family’s approval, she invested money in the chain of salons operated by male hair stylist Jay Sebring, 35, also killed in the weekend slaughter. Other backers included actors Paul Newman, Steve McQueen, Warren Beatty and Peter Lawford.

Through Sebring, she met and mingled with many of Hollywood’s most famous names.

But she had the misfortune to be at the wrong place at the wrong time last weekend.

Sebring was also well known in the Bay Area where he opened a hair styling salon last May in partnership with public relations executive Art Blum.

Blum, who said he was in a state of “stupor” from the tragedy, denied reports characterizing the five persons slain as “rich hippies.”

Blum said Sebring was “not even much of a swinger. His ambition was to become a millionaire.”

When Sebring came to the Bay Area, he would usually visit Lt. Col. Paul J. Tate.

Tate, father of slain actress Sharon Tate, 27, is nearing retirement as assistant chief of staff for intelligence at the Sixth Region Army Air Defense Command at Fort Baker here."

Bullshit, r249--she was featured in VALLEY OF THE DOLLS, which was actually a hit, and won a Golden Globe nomination. What do you mean NO ONE knew who she was, you fucking idiot?

I always assumed they had threesomes or something

From that clip on R254, Jay Sebring sure was small. He looked like he was 5'6".

r263 maybe that's why little Roman wasn't insecure about Sebring.

"Through a friend, Wojciech was introduced to a group of Canadian drug dealers and allegedly agreed to traffic their drugs into Los Angeles. Frykowski's actual involvement in the drug trade still remains a mystery and continues to generate controversy among people who believe there was a connection between him and the Manson family. Years later, Roman Polanski denied the rumors about Wojciech selling drugs, stating that the stories were just media sensationalism."

If Beausoleil is getting parole, Van Houten can't be far behind. Don't know if they'll ever let Krenwinkel out: It's hard to get the image of bloody, dying Gibby Folger saying "Stop, I'm already dead" out of your head.

I don't think they'll ever let Tex out.

Beausoleil hasn't been "paroled." The governor can prevent it and I assume he will, if he ever hopes to get elected to any office again.

Krenwinkel had a medical condition in which her body produced too much testosterone. This made her extremely hairy, and virtually none of the men wanted to have sex with her. Apparently the only one who would touch her was Charlie, and as a result she was completely devoted and loyal to him.

That's both pathetic and nauseating, r268. I totally see that.

[quote]r90 Olivia Hussey also lived in the house for a time afterwards and said something similar to Altobelli, that she felt warm happy vibes in the house. I thought that was very striking because it goes so against the "haunted doomed house " stereotype you would expect .

A friend of mine worked for Rudi Altobelli for years and spent many days in that house, as well as house sitting when he was gone.

They said the house had tons of windows and was filled with light, and there were french doors to the pool area that were always open. It was apparently a gorgeous house that physically had a serene, bright atmosphere.

[italic]"There was a cartoonlike perfection about it: You waited to find Bambi drinking from the pool..."

- Candice Bergen

Candy, who got out in time:

This thread is just an excuse to keep talking about the Tate /Manson murders. Datalounge is so obsessed with this.

EVERYBODY is still "obsessed" with this. There are always ongoing stories about the Manson family; people are fascinated by them, by their pure evil. And of course there's going to be yet another depiction of them in that Quentin Tarantino movie, which is sure to be a gore fest. I can only imagine what he'll do with the scene that shows eight months pregnant Sharon Tate being butchered.

I'm not obsessed with this murder as much as I'm fascinated by the 70's. Life was a lot simpler, less stressful and more relaxed than it is now.

I'm obsessed with Jay Sebring's cock.

There have to be nudes somewhere.

R276, Really, the Vietnam war was still going on for part of the 1970's, plus there was a major recession, inflation, a gas shortage, watergate, serial killers, plane highjackings, etc...

R278, I lived during the 70's and I loved it. Things were a lot slower, more relaxed and almost idyllic, of course, I may be seeing through my younger eyes.. It seemed safer back then, I used to hitch-hike with my friends across town--, that would be unheard of today. The gas shortage, Watergate, plane highjacking were isolated incidents that didn't affect my local life like they do now. Of course, after the Manson murders and Hillside strangler, I was more careful. Today we have gun shootings every other week and dealing with an unstable government with a narcissistic Unstable Idiot in charge and this awful shutdown. There actually was a bipartisan government then, not the extreme polarization you see today and people were more optimistic about the future because of the changes being made. There was an explosion in music, creativity, in the arts and in culture. It was a fascinating period of time.

The individuals involved in this case are fascinating but it's hard to suss out the truth about aspects of this case (and the people involved ) because there have been so many lies put out there.

Final warning, piggies!

R261, are you sixteen years old? Sharon Tate had a role in a hit movie, but most people did not know her, she was not a star. The talk was mostly about Patty Duke, whom everyone knew. Even Barbara Parkins was more famous than Tate since she had a role on a long running TV series, Peyton Place. Sharon Tate was NOT a STAR and not generally known to the public. You are a fucking idiot.

If anyone wants to read what life was really like living among the Manson family then you should read Paul Watkin’s book. He gives a completely different insight into what the dynamics of the family was really like, as well as Manson himself.

The book used to be available for free on one of the sites dedicated to the Tate/Labianca murders.

r282, you said, all caps, "NO ONE knew her." You made it sound like she was literally a nobody.

I pointed out that she was a starlet on the rise with a Golden Globe nomination and hardly an utterly unknown entity, you stupid cunt.

Even I knew who Sharon Tate was as a kid. She became popular after Valley of the Dolls and people raved about her beauty. She became more famous after marrying Polanski because people were befuddled why she married that ugly midget.

Just want to reiterate that Sebring was gay. And yes, it’s a stereotype, but all male hairstylists are.

While she wasn't worldwide famous Tate was not a complete unknown. I thought her performance in VOTD was actually quite touching. I liked Dukes performance as well but Perkins left me cold.

In that podcast series linked above, they make an interesting point about Tate. That while her incredible beauty was the thing that made man after man do her favors, and had let her leapfrog over any kind of typical Hollywood Newcomer strugle (she got an agent on her first day in town or something), she was also at something of a crossroads. Her beauty had also failed her in a certain sense, as it HADN'T secured great roles, a faithful husband, a peaceful life etc.

I like to think Polanski would have made TESS with her (she'd shown him the novel, and he then asked her to prepare a treatment of it), and just maybe he'd have got a good performance out of her. It could have been a good, tragic role for her. I don't think she'd have gone on to any GREAT career...but with her husband directing, maybe she'd have given one classic performance to be proud of.

[quote][italic]The Sensational Sharon Tate Blog: [/italic] Julie Christie gave friend Sharon Tate a copy of Thomas Hardy's novel "Tess of the d'Urbervilles" with the inscription "For my Hardy heroine" (Julie had recently become a Thomas Hardy heroine in Far from the Madding Crowd (1967). Sharon would read the book on board the Queen Elizabeth II ship as she came back to America from London when she was pregnant. Sharon told her husband Roman Polanski that it would make a wonderful movie shortly before her death. When Polanski later made the film Tess (1979) he dedicated it "For Sharon". It's interesting to think about this because Sharon and her life are sort of reminscent of a tragic Thomas Hardy heroine.

^^ OT - my favorite blog doesn't discuss TESS, but at least he does an entry on FAR FROM THE MADDING CROWD (mentioned above)

That funeral footage was taken at Forest Lawn in Glendale at the church where Ronald Reagan and Jane Wyman were married (at the cemetery).

Would you assume he had a second funeral in Michigan for his burial, or is a body sometimes shipped out of state and buried with no ceremony?

R288 I agree with your assessment, I believe that even if she wasn't ever going to be a great actress she definitely could have had a few very good performances under the right direction. I'm actually surprised she's not more of a beauty icon, in my opinion she was almost unbelievably beautiful, even by Hollywood standards.

The confusion over the Manson family murders is mostly down to the immense amount of infamy that the case has generated over the years. The succeeding decades have not done anything to diminish the fascination that the general public have with the Manson family and the horrific crimes they committed. The facts have long been obscured by the conspiracy theories, books and documentaries that have sensationalised what really happened. In reality the Bugliosi book gets about as close to the truth as we’ll ever know.

90% of the public did not know who Sharon Tate was when she was murdered. That qualifies as 'no one' in reality.

R286 What are your sources that Jay Sebring was either bisexual or gay? I have read just about everything in print on these people and have never heard this. I have heard he was quite a ladies man though and it wasn't unusual for him to date several girls at a time.

Jay was a men's hairstylist and barber.

Bullshit, r293. Even if10% of the public knew who she was (and your figures are hardly documentable) then she wasn't an unknown.

R288, Tess is one of Roman's best and most beautifully filmed movies.

I could see that Tate/LaBianca murders having more of a drug angle than Bugliosi emphasized in the trial. Charlie, Voytek Frykowski, and even the LaBiancas had drug connections (through their daughter). In Helter Skelter it said that after the murders, toilets were flushing all over Los Angeles: "the entire sewer system is stoned."

However, that doesn't mean Charlie wasn't also trying to 1) get Beausoleil, his prime procurer of young girl, out of jail 2) stay in control of his family by assuring them that Helter Skelter was about to get started and 3) stab at the heart of the Hollywood elite who rejected him. His motives were mixed and strange, but I don't think it was a giant conspiracy starring MKULTRA. I think it's more that some powerful people knew Manson and his willing acolytes far better than they wanted to admit and that the drug trade in LA reached the highest levels, and THAT was information nobody wanted coming out at the trial. Hence, it didn't. But Charlie was still crazy, and he and his followers were still guilty as hell.

R295, you're trying oh so very hard to no avail

r293 and r295 How about you're both right!??

Sharon Tate was well known in Hollywood and just starting to be known with the American public. She did very few films (seven I believe) and not nearly as much magazine work here as she did overseas. The murders of course changed all that.

And where is your proof, r298, that Tate was an unknown?

Of course Tate was not an unknown. She won a Golden Globe nomination and was in a hit film, and was married to a very up-and-coming star director. Was she known across the country? No, of course not. After all, she'd also only been in movies of any note for three years. To say she was an unknown is stretching it beyond the definition of unknown.

to use the literal definition of "unknown" is to declare that anybody featured on page 28C of a local newspaper is a public figure.

Everybody on facebook is famous if we stick to a literal definition of unknown.

In fact, anybody with a family or a friend is not unknown.

Tate was a Golden Globe nominee? Lol. That will get you about 5-10% name recognition, which she had. Which is why she was largely unknown.

r297 probably a lot of truth to what you write.

R288 Fun fact , Tess star Kinski and Tate share the same birthday, January 24th

Front page of the Cincinnati paper the next day. Sharon got the picture and is described (but not named) in the headline, and equal to Folger...

regarding previous boyfriend Forquet................he and sharon had one violet episode while they dated about a year or more. There was a fairly lengthy write up about him in the greg king book about sharon,,,, sharon tate and the manson murders.

I hate physical abuser,s but if you read Forquet s version of events, they had an intense volatile relationship where each side gave as good as they got. He claimed on more than one occasion Sharon would thow knives or other objects at him etc etc and at one point he made a trip to the emergency room for an altercation with Sharon. I dont condone violence but it wasnt a situation where he stalked her or threatened to kill her or beat her to a pulp...... it was a passionate unhappy relationship.

Forqeut moved back to France after he and sharon broke up and he said in the interview for the book 30 years later that it took him 10 years before he was recovered enuf from the year he was with Sharon emotionally to start another relationship.

So I am concluding from reading about this event in his life he wasnt a violent monster, it was a relationship that was very very hot that tended to go out of control as both people were very emotionally invested in the relationship.

This really seems out of character for Sharon as she was a very low key person. Unfortuantely what I derived from the book which pretty expensively covered her short life was a tendancy for her to chose the wrong men. Jay was actually the nicest most mild mannered of anybody she was involved with. Unfortunately her love life started out very badly. When still a high school student her parents allowed her to go out on a date with an older guy who was in the military where her father was stationed, and he raped Sharon. Her relationship with men overall proved to be somewhat rocky and I am sure being stunning beautiful worked against her as much as it worked for her in that regard.

[quote]r298 Tess is one of Roman's best and most beautifully filmed movies.

But it feels so loooooongggg - -

A problem with it as a movie is the heroine is so passive for 99% of it. She's a victim just buffeted along by fate, which is fine to mull over in a book but not that exciting to watch.

"Tess" is one boring movie. Nastassja Kinski is certainly beautiful but couldn't act her way out of a paper bag. I wonder if Sharon had lived she would have played Tess? I guess so, because she suggested to Polanski that the novel it was based on would make a great movie. Maybe she would have done the role better.

R309 yes it runs a bit at times but I think the cinematography was one of the most beautiful I have ever seen. I loved all those shots of the French countryside (although it was supposed to be the English countryside ). Speaking of Kinski, I haven't heard from her in years.

Do you think Sharon and Roman had anal? I bet he insisted on it.

Does there have to be focal matter or pop leak involved everytime you have anal or can it be clean without any shit smell?

RP predatory with minor and fled Justice.

Hollywood still defends him.

Bump

[quote]r309 I wonder if Sharon ... would have done the role better.

Tate may have been fine in the role ... which would honestly have been a step up for her, as she's a bit embarrasing whenever she speaks in films. (I don't remember minding her acting in THE FEARLESS VAMPIRE KILLERS, but I think her voice was dubbed in that?)

She would surely have looked exquisite, and maybe playing a simple girl who was caught up in events, rather than instigating them, would have taken the pressure off. And it's not like Tess is a very demanding role - the character has no insight into anything.

R311, this is where I cut out

I just registered and paid my $1.50, so I could come here and say, Polanski was cute! Maybe not as cute as Sebring, but not some weird little munchkin. He was cute.

R317 I agree with you, even though it's a bit of an unpopular opinion.

I also agree.

Polanski is releasing a movie on the Alfred Dreyfus affair in November , titled J'accuse. I suspect it will likely be one of his last movies. It looks very interesting.

He had a taut little body, too.

Speaking of Polanski, this is a HUGELY unpopular opinion but I agreed with Switzerland 's choice not to extradite him back in 2009. 30 years had gone by and the victim had forgiven him and had asked to simply be left alone by the media . Meanwhile we unleashed a living nightmare on the Iraqi 's that is still going on and destabilized the entire mid east. Everytime I heard finger waving sanctimony about this case during that time I rolled my eyes. I kept hearing about how Americans were oh so noble unlike sleazy Europeans. Nobody has been held accountable for what we did to Iraq, who the fuck was the United States to demand extradition over shit that happened 30 years ago. So much finger wagging by warmongerers. The Swiss were right to give US prosecutors the finger.

Polanski was a womanizer, and Tate was interested only in him. They would have undoubtedly broken up had she lived, a few years after the baby was born.

Even had she played "Tess," she wasn't an actress, and her performance probably would have been as big a critical flop as Cybill Shepherd in "Daisy Miller."

Art films! Nudies!

R323 I thought Tate was good in Valley of the Dolls and Fearless Vampire Killers, even though she wasn't a skilled actress. She fit both roles well . If she were an up and comer today she would probably be a model rather than an actress. It seems that 40 or 50 years ago, talent scouts would look for the most beautiful women and "make " them into actresses. Nowadays the most stunning ones go into modeling .

When I worked at 20/20 Video on Sunset, Trent Reznor would come in all the time. The address on his account was the Tate house. He recorded Downward Spiral there.

In the middle of reading Helter Skelter sometime in the '90s, I went up to the Ciello Drive house. I think it was in the middle of being torn down. I was there for about 5 minutes, but then started to get very bad vibes, and I left.

I don't believe in ghosts or anything, but just being in that infamous space- looking at the gate, and the telephone pole Tex climbed to cut the wires- started to freak me out. I honestly don't know HOW anyone lived in that house. It stood for almost 30 years after the murders.

R326 Very interesting. Oddly enough, Olivia Hussey of Romeo and Juliet fame lived there for a time afterwards. She said she wasn't disturbed by living there and it reminded her in a positive way of Tate. But I think it would be disconcerting for a lot of people.

R315, I'll have a Coke.

The house was bulldozed recently. A new one was built in its place, and the house was re-numbered (which I understand is very hard to do in Los Angeles).

[quote] Oddly enough, Olivia Hussey of Romeo and Juliet fame lived there for a time afterwards. She said she wasn't disturbed by living there and it reminded her in a positive way of Tate.

I'm sure she was comforted every time she walked through the front door, and saw the imprint of the word "PIG" written by Susan Atkins in Sharon's blood, painted over but still visible.

Trent Reznor took that door away with him when he moved out, R330.

But he lived there after Hussey did, didn't he?

Whatever happened to William Tennant? I don't think he ever talked publicly about what happened and there seems to be very little info online about him.

Not sure, R332.

The house was torn down in 1994. That's 25 years ago, kids. It was replaced by monstrous "castle."

Was the baby Jay's? Did Polanski pay the Manson family for hit?

Hillary Duff's take on Sharon Tate is not winning raves from Debra Tate. Duff looks more like Sharon than the badly cast Margot Robie though.

r323 Even had she played "Tess," she wasn't an actress, and her performance probably would have been as big a critical flop as Cybill Shepherd in "Daisy Miller."

The problem with [italic]Daisy Miller [/italic] isn't Shepherd, it's Bogdanovich's utterly inept direction. He should have lead her in a different direction with the characterization -- you can't easily watch a ninny for 2 hours.

And she looked perfect.

Put me down for not taking Manson's Helter Skelter very seriously, although it did help the police catch him. The murders in August, 1969 seem more like rage and revenge, to me. I'm sure everyone was taking and dealing drugs, but ultimately, drug deals gone bad and music careers not happening seems more like the motivation, here.

R337 I think Margot is a slightly better resemblance but it is very hard to cast an actress as Tate. She was unusually beautiful even for a movie star.

Sharon Tate had a serene beauty, something that is very hard to mimic.

And I think Sharon's beauty and serenity play very well to our obsession. She wasn't some angst-ridden but ruthlessly ambitious Hollywood starlet, or if she was, she hid it well. Her public character makes the story all the more terrible and tragic.

Since Ciello Drive was mentioned earlier in the thread, could someone please post a link to pics of the home while Sharon was living there (that AREN’T crime scene photos)? I’d google it myself, but I do not wish to see the murder scene in any capacity.

Also... obviously ghosts aren’t real, but it is REALLY weird that Olivia H. had no issues living there afterwards.

R342, it’s my understanding that Sharon underwent a lot of “training” to become an actress, including elocution lessons, acting lessons, personal trainers, etc. So while I doubt she was ruthless, she was certainly ambitious.

R108, I agree! Moreover, walking on the murder-scene lawn? Uh, no way!

I see the nut jobs have been out in full force on the whole............ it was a drug related murder etc etc/ they even throw in the Labiancas as drug dealer? Leo and Rosemary were about as far removed from the hollywood scene and drugs as could be imagined. Leo ran a grocery chain and Rosemary owned a womans clothing store and was highly succesful in options/commodities trading and her estate was valued at over 2 million dollars...... and that is 1969 money we are talking about.

Frykowski did do drugs himself but he bought them with Abigail Folgers money and he just gave them away to anybody that was a friend. He was the type of person that lived each and every day like it was the last one of his life/ there was a great book recently published on the Tate family called..... restless souls...... and it goes into much detail about the victims lives. Frykowski barely spoke any english and the thought that he was some big drug dealer is just stupid. Jay was using a lot of cocaine the last 6 months of his life and it started when he found out Sharon was pregnant. He sold small quantites but nothing to interest any serious drug dealers.

THe awful fact that people have a hard tiime with is the Cielo drive murders were completely random and senseless. My belief is it was somewhat born out of Manson s rage towards not making it in society and additionally doing a copycat murder for complicated reasons to cover up their recent murder of Gary Hinman, where a family member was in jail on a murder rap.

Finally if you are still convinced it was some drug related massacre or a cia plot or whatever..........why did Manson and his henchman go out on the 2nd night for another murder spree and drive around for like 4 hrs trying to figure out randomly who to kill? THey went to pasadena, glendale etc and drove around for hours looking for targets. THey went to a house, a church, and were going to shoot somebody in asports car next to them at a red light but didnt at the last minute for fear of getting immediately caught. Then a lightbulb goes off in Manson s head and he remembers a slightly isolated house in glendale adjacent east los feliz where he went to a drug party a couple of times and remembered a house next door...............the Labianca s...............sorry you crazed idiots...this was random murders almost committed for no reason except for a couple of lunatics out to avenge internal rage and sickness. These were geographically picked murders that focused on the familiarilty of the houses and grounds and had nothing to do with the actual occupants, as awful and random as that is..........deal with it.

Don't be boring R346.

[346] I said it was rage. You said it was rage. We agree. It's not about Helter Skelter, but something more mundane.

The killers knew the layout of the house because Melcher lived there. They knew Harold True who was the LaBianca's next door neighbor so they knew that house too. They also knew Melcher had moved to the beach house his mother owned. So many weird parallels with this crime. Melcher's mother Doris Day was born and raised in Cincinnati and Manson was also born there. The mother of the limo driver in the OJ Case was the attorney for Patricia Krenwinkel at a 1994 parole hearing - just months before the Nicole/Ron murders, 25 years after Helter Skelter.

R349 Those coincidences are so bizarre, I had never heard that about the limo driver. When you say limo driver, I take it to mean this is his personal chauffeur you are referring to? In any case it's weird, I suppose it's a small world but still...

[quote]Didn't William Garretson, the Cielo Drive caretaker, say that he heard the screams that night but was so used to screams from the wild parties thrown there, he didn't think anything was wrong?

I kind of remember reading something like that years ago. I also remember that someone in the neighborhood did report hearing a scream to the police a day or two later.

[quote]Sebring was into B&D and Sharon wasn't. She went along with it but it wasn't her thing. Then she got involved with Polanski, who treated her like shit, and rather than dump him, she pretended she was fine with it. Jay knew how unhappy she was and hung around hoping for a second chance. Polanski never wanted to marry her, and almost certainly didn't care if she ran around on him.

You're right. Sebring was quite a fucked up personality. Sharon felt sorry for him. When I saw the photos of the crime scene, they showed a white rope which had been flung over a ceiling beam and IIRC was attached to Tate on one end and Sebring on the other which seemed symbolic of something. They Manson people didn't bring rope to the house. Recently, I read a book "Legends and Lipstick: My Scandalous Story" about a woman who dated/fucked Hollywood stars and wrote about it. She spent quite a few pages on Jay Sebring and his bondage fantasies.

"Sebring wore a black silk Japanese robe that stopped where his thighs started. A wide leather belt accentuated his ridiculously small waist; high heeled black boots hugged his calves and stopped at the knees, standing away from his thin legs. The robe was very carefully opened two inches down the front. He wore nothing beneath it. He disappeared again, returning this time with a length of rope. "Will you let me tie you?" He was a small child asking for a treat that he was afraid would be refused. I nodded and he looped the rope loosely around my wrists, asking "Is it too tight" "No, it's all right." I tried to catch his eyes, but his head was bent and he fumbled with the slim white rope. "Jay." My voice pulled him up and those dark questioning eyes were upon me. "I don't like pain." "

(Cont'd.)

"I'm not knocking it. I don't put anyone down for doing it -- it's just not my thing." "I understand," he said at length. HE LOOPED ONE END OF THE ROPE OVER A BEAM ABOVE THE FIREPLACE and tied it, asking it if was too tight. I shook my head and watched as he secured the other rope to another beam on the other side of the fireplace. Was I turned on by this new and bizarre scene? I didn't know. I only knew that I wasn't frightened. That I trusted him. And I was curious and anxious to see what he would do next.

He sank to his knees and ran trembling hands over my thighs, my legs, my leather boots. He was so gentle it felt like a butterfly wing and I writhed against the hand, wanting it to be harder. But he stopped caressing me and reached for a bottle of perfume. He poured a large amount into the palms of his hands and moved slowly toward me and spread it over my breasts and belly and thighs. He filled his hands with another fragrance and massaged it into my skin. Again and again he reached to the coffee table, coming back each time with yet another scent, a cream, a lotion, a liquid, and he spread them over my body, onto my transparent blouse, between the chain links of my heavy gold vest, over the draped gold belt, and slithered them down my perfumed and slick legs."

)Cont'd.)

"A lotion rested like whipped cream on the tops of my boots and glistened like satin in the eerie glow of the flames. It mingled with the perspiration of my body and shone wet and gleaming and still he did not stop. He caressed and massaged and spread layer upon layer of perfume onto my now reeking body. Then he took out a hairdresser's plastic bottle with a spray head and he squirted me all over with warm water. The heat of the water sent the fumes up to my nostrils. "Please, Jay, it's too much," I pleaded. The odor was reeling my drug churned head. "The fire's too hot." I was surprised when he moved quickly and turned down the flames. Then he stood and surveyed his masterpiece. His eyes were seeing a beauty that only he could see. I was sorry that I was unable to share it with him. I guess I was even envious of his secret world. My wrists had begun to ache and Jay was suddenly at my side, loosening the ropes, rubbing my wrists, and whispering, "Are you alright? It wasn't bad, was it? It wasn't bad." And he kissed by reddened wrists and smoothed my hair back from my damp face and wiped the perspiration from my forehead. I sank to the floor and asked him "Why?" He lowered his head and the flames made the dark sweat-curled hair glow auburn. He scooped up a spoonful of cocaine and sniffed it in jerkingly. He held it for me and he did not answer me. Instead he said, "Can we do it again as soon as you've rested?" "

"He returned wearing a black satin hood that covered his head and shoulders. Two holes, edged in black leather enable him to see his way into the room. In his hand he carried a small whip with several thongs of leather, each tipped with a knot. I began to get frightened. "No Jay, not the whip," I said. I was helpless. The ropes were loose around my wrists but tied to the beams and the loops were too small to allow my hands to slip through. "I won't hurt you," he said and I was shocked by his voice. It was hoarse, deep and his breath came fast from behind the satin folds of his hood. "I won't hurt you -- please --" His voice was muffled, sounding of pain and unshed tears and I longed to free my arms and hold him. "It's all right," I murmured. Then, unaffected by my pleas, I began to sob. "Don't -- don't -- oh God, don't!" Jay cried and began tearing the hood from his head and clawing at the ropes on my wrists and ankles freeing me. He kicked the whip away and turned his back and wept.

"I looked at the thin stooped shoulders, wracked now with the effort of his sobbing, my eyes fell upon the discarded whip. And next to it, there on the floor, gleaming dully in the dim light, was a long, curved butcher knife! My heart leaped in my breast. He leaned his head in his hands as I turned away from him. I don't know if he head me. I didn't try to be quiet,grabbed my things and fled out of that dark house. I ran gasping for breath, tears blurring the stone steps and my heart beating a wild tattoo against my ribs, and I didn't look back, don't remember getting into my car, but suddenly I was turning onto the brightly lit Benedict Canyon and my legs were sticking to the leather seats and the thick, sickly sweet odor of perfume assaulted my nostrils, and I put my head on the steering wheel and cried like a baby."

And ... Scene!

I don't know if this is mentioned upthread. But one thing I'm pretty sure of that drove home the eventual outcome that the situation was hopeless for the victims what happened shortly after the house was invaded. The quote is from cielodrive.com: "Shortly after midnight Susan Atkins entered the room with a buck knife in hand, she instructed Sharon and Jay to come into the living room. There, Charles "Tex" Watson tied a rope around Jay's neck, looped it over the ceiling beam, and then tied it around Sharon's neck. Watson then ordered Jay, Sharon, Wojciech, and Abigail to lie on their stomachs in front of the fireplace. Sebring argued with Watson over Sharon having to be in such an uncomfortable position considering she was 8 1/2 months pregnant. Watson immediately shot Sebring, kicking him several times while he lay bleeding to death on the floor."

[R214], you blew any credibility you had with, "JFK assassin or "assassin" Sirhan Sirhan..."