Who Murdered The Black Dahlia?

.

Wasn't me, I swear.

Let's ask Kirk Douglas.

Someone who was not a nice person!

Jessica Lange's son

Jo Mama

(Tee-Hee-Hee!)

Hilary Swank

I believe the conclusions of that guy who deduced that it was his father, a physician.

I'm getting chills right now, whoa.

Wasn't it the dentist who built that house on the first season of AHS?

Lots of people claim their parent killed her. Probably wasn't. Most likely it was the sailor she took home & fucked or didn't fuck.

...

Joan Crawford heard about her wire hanger abortion, screamed for Tina to bring her the ax and the rest is history.

According to "Severed," she had immature genitalia, whatever that means.

What DOES that mean?

There was a serial killer in LA going around carving smiles into prostitutes faces. He didn't dismember his victims but the Black Dahlia had her face slashed just like that. I'm guessing she was one of his victims.

She was a whore, darlings!

Has anyone ever seen the movie version? It's HILARIOUS.

There have been several books that claimed to have "solved" the murder, but none of them had any hard evidence to back up their claims.

The guy who said his father did it offered as proof two photographs he found in his father's possession after he died. He said the photos were obviously of Elizabeth Short. But when the photos were compared to actual photos of Short, it was determined that the photos were definitely NOT her. Actually, anyone with a reasonable amount of vision could see that.

The murder remains officially unsolved.

So many assume a woman could never do this type of crime... they would be so wong

Her nemesis, The White Dahlia.

This guy --- (other suspects at link)

-------------------------- Walter Bayley[edit]

Dr. Walter Alonzo Bayley was a Los Angeles surgeon who lived in a house one block south of the vacant lot in which Elizabeth Short's body was found, until he left his wife in October 1946. At the time of the murder, Bayley's estranged wife still lived in the home. Bayley's daughter was a friend of Elizabeth Short's sister Virginia and brother-in-law Adrian and had been the matron of honor at their wedding. When Bayley died in January 1948, his autopsy showed that he was suffering from degenerative brain disease. After his death, Bayley's widow alleged that his mistress knew a "terrible secret" about Bayley and claimed this was the reason the mistress was the main beneficiary upon his death. Bayley was never a suspect in the case, but many medical doctors and others with medical training were. In secret testimony, Detective Harry Hansen, one of the original investigators, told the 1949 Los Angeles County grand jury that in his opinion the killer was a "top medical man" and "a fine surgeon." Bayley was 67 years old at the time of the murder, had no known history of violence or criminal activity of any kind, and is not known to have met Short, even though his daughter was a friend of Short's oldest sister.

When Larry Harnisch, a copy editor and writer for the Los Angeles Times, began studying the case in 1996, he eventually concluded that Bayley could be Elizabeth Short's killer.[4] Although critics of Harnisch's theory question whether Bayley's mental and physical condition at the time of the murder would have been consistent with the commission of this type of crime, the original investigators' theory that the body was cut in half because the killer wasn't strong enough to move it intact partially answers this objection. Harnisch theorizes that Bayley’s neurological deterioration contributed to his alleged violence against Short. Some have suggested that the secret that Bayley’s mistress was blackmailing him with was that he had performed abortions, then a crime. However, there is no evidence that Bayley performed abortions or associated with anyone involved in performing abortions. Author James Ellroy endorsed Harnisch's theory in the 2001 film James Ellroy's Feast of Death.[5]

Among the behavioral/psychological evidence that Harnisch marshals as part of his theory: Walter Bayley’s neurodegenerative condition was known to produce violent behavior in otherwise passive individuals; Bayley’s surgical specializations included mastectomies, hysterectomies, and the surgical removal of fat; in conversation with Bayley’s former receptionist, Harnisch discovered that Bayley and his mistress would, at dinnertime, watch movies of surgeries and autopsies.[6]

In devising his theory, Harnisch consulted retired FBI profiler John E. Douglas, who advised that the very public location of the dump site must have some significance, since the killer had the ability to transport the body to a more remote site, where it may not have been discovered; the dump site was one block away from property owned by Ruth Bayley, Walter Bayley’s estranged wife.[7]

Douglas also advised that the facial lacerations indicated personal anger towards the victim: Elizabeth Short would often falsely tell men that she had a son who had died tragically; Walter Bayley did, in fact, have a son who was struck by a car and killed at age 11. The deceased Walter Bayley Jr.’ s birthday was January 13th; Elizabeth Short’s body was discovered on January 15th.[8]

Lucie Arnaz.

She clearly committed suicide.

LUCIE ARNAZ?!?!

Lucie Arnaz played the Black Dahlia in some half-assed tv movie about her.

Anyhow, it's pure speculation when it comes to who killed her. There's been no conclusive evidence to nail anybody as her murderer.

Elizabeth Short attained immortality as the exotic, infamous Black Dahlia, but the truth is she was just a lazy, not very bright young woman with vague dreams of becoming an actress.

She "dated" a lot of men, but did she actually have sex with them? In the book "Severed" by John Gilmore he claimed that her female parts were so underdeveloped that intercourse would have been impossible. Was she a blow job queen? Nobody knows. All that's known is that she went out with guys a lot to get free meals and nights out on the town.

She was a drifter. She would stiff her landlords and any other person who allowed her to live with them by flying the coop after being late with rent payments. This kind of behavior didn't make her many friends.

She heard somewhere that it would make her more attractive to photographers and casting agents if she dyed her hair as "shiny black" as possible. Her hair looked harsh and was usually done up in an unflattering style.

She lived hand-to-mouth and because of lack of dental care her teeth were rotting.

The exotic Black Dahlia was a pretty sad case.

Hodel. Solved.

"Hodel. Solved."

Uh, no. Hodel is the father of the guy who claimed that he found pictures of the Black Dahlia among his father's possessions after his death, which of course was irrefutable evidence that he had killed her. The pictures were later determined to NOT be Elizabeth Short.

Hodel is just another guy who some people think might have killed the Black Dahlia. He's also supposed to be the "the Lipstick Killer" and the "Zodiac Killer." Of course none of that was ever proven, but when somebody's dead you can anything you want about them.

Didn't you hear? Obama did it.

Stick a pin in the phone book.

this guy

Hodel was the perp fingered by Hodel Jr (a policeman in LA) and ratified by crime writer James McElroy, the latter even contributed a forward to the book. Then, a few years later, JM refused to acknowledge his earlier claim and issued a statement that he would never again respond to any questions on the subject, nor would he ever talk about Hodel or the topic...forever.

2007 Vanity Fair has a long profile with Michelle Phillips where she offers her own endorsement of Hodel as guilty. And beyond creepy.

Hodel thinks his father killed EVERYONE.

R33 and you will definitely be tempted to believe him when you read VF. What a hardo.

Probably the same guy who killed Paul Walker

R36, I was thinking that myself as a real possibility until that thread came to a consensus that it was Eric Holder in the parlor with a drone.

The doctor's female companion from Germany/Austria? She was also a doctor and surgeon. She left the body on the same street of her nemesis, the doctor's wife. The doctor's wife took her to court over his estate. The killer had a medical office with the deceased doctor and an intimate relationship which entailed watching educational autopsy films on projector. Finally, it was determined that the woman surgeon had spent time in Asia with a group of Jewish refugees seeking temporary asylum. Nearby was a reservation for Japan's native population, the Ainu people. The tribe is well known for their women who tattoo joker smiles around their lips.

She fits better than anyone else. She also looked like a tranny which could explain the torture (fed feces)of the striking Short. It had a woman's touch all over it.

HANG FUCKING ON!

What doctor r37? Hodel? Do not drop into a thread like this without telling us more. Who the FUCK was in that pic? NAME PLEASE?

Because that pic creeped me the fuck out.

FWIW, I've followed this case for years, I don't know anything about the doctor's female companion from Germany/Austria? Hodel, that doctor?

I have more to say but I must google who the fuck that is in that pic. That pic sent shivers down my spine.

This pic is NSFW at all, but the guy that wrote Severed did not know shit, he pretty much made up all his facts, especially about the "undeveloped genitals" facts.

Here's Elizabeth, dead, if you scroll down, you'll see EVERYTHING, she had all her genitals but some seem to have been cut. Very scary.

Do not click this link unless you think you can handle it.

IOW, she had an adult clit, adult vagina, but she IS cut in half here, and someone cut up parts of her flesh, etc.

Hodel was a monster and may have killed one or more people but it can't be certain that he killed the Black Dahlia. He had some freaky shit going on, that's for sure. The Hodel book is interesting whether his theory holds up or not. As an LA cop, he had great access to all the police files and information, although so did Ellroy.

I feel bad for James Ellroy. These solutions to the Dahlia killing are all plausible. He's probably right to just not comment on any of them anymore. It's a pity what they did to his book. Hilary fucking Swank strikes again.

Yes, Hodel IS interesting but his pix don't add up to Dahlia. He also claimed that his father was one of the SF serial killers too, the Zodiac Killer. It IS true that Hodel died in the SF Bay Area btw. I just don't know.

Here's what the zodiackiller board says, IOW they don't think so. They say he was too old.

The Black Dahlia movie is flawed, but Josh Hartnett looks good in 1940's clothes and he shows his ass.

So at least it had some redeeming features.

I don't think Hodel was on the short-list of suspects for the Zodiac. He was short-listed for the Black Dahlia killing but his son's evidence wasn't enough to prove it was him.

Poor Steve Hodel, his father George was such a violent, sick fuck that Steve not only became a cop but sees his father in these notorious cases.

Has there ever been a bio-pic about Man Ray? There's another sick fuck and George Hodel's friend.

Lucid ARNAZ and her tv-movie version (co-starring Donna Mills) were a heckuva lot better than that trashy thing of DePalma's.

Being sliced in two didn't hurt nearly as much as having Hillary Swank play someone who was supposed to look just like me did.

R38, it's an Ainu woman with child taken in 1930. A book cover also.

Hodel is still a possibility for the Dahlia murder, it's just that his son didn't prove it.

Everyone ignores me.

Look, I'm telling you that years ago I stumbled upon info about a serial killer being active there who would carve smiles into prostitutes faces. Then the Black Dahlia's murder happened. She too had a smile carved into her face (lips cut upwards on both sides). This is the same killer. Sure, in the other deaths the prostitutes weren't dissected but the same "smile" was carved which gives him away. Perhaps he dissected the Dahlia for fear of getting caught or for easier disposal. Either way, she most likely died from being strangled. When she was dead she had her false smile carved in her face and then had her body dissected. It was placed in an empty lot because the killer wanted it to be found rather soon.

Do you think your speculations are earth-shattering, R48? They aren't and you are far from the first person to postulate that the mouth carver could possibly be the Black Dahlia killer.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Calm down, bitches. It's not as if any of you are Sherlock Holmes and are going to be able to solve this thing.

Is it possible that Short had a form of intersex, specifically AIS, which would account for the "underdeveloped genitalia" comment, as those with AIS often have shortened vaginal canals?

The Black Dahlia Murderer....there, it's solved.

The medical examiner found feces in her stomach.

Ew

"She too had a smile carved into her face (lips cut upwards on both sides)"

Her lips weren't cut into a "smile." The corners of her mouth were slashed, but there was nothing about the injury to indicate it was meant to resemble a "smile." Look at the death photos. That is NOT a "smile."

If you want to be grossed out, google the pictures of Jack the Ripper killings

Over 100 years later and they're still shocking

I happen to know who murdered The Black Dahlia. You really want to know? Well, Dame May Whitty did. It was a crime of passion.

R38 see R22. The doctor was too old and feeble. The female surgeon was considered a suspect in the beginning and the detectives working this case weren't so bright. I've only felt that she was slain by a woman but in tandem with a male.

R48, the smile was cut when she was still alive.

Bugsy Seigel was involved, and got himself whacked shortly afterwards.

There were four men involved in the act itself.

Back then the press was in bed with the mafia and would not report anything near the truth. The mafia went out to LA after the end of prohibition to get involved in the entertainment industry, as well as the Vegas gambling scene.

There was a book written in 2006 after the files were all made public that makes a persuasive case, and also proves how the Hodel accusations were incorrect.

She was not intersex and did not have underdeveloped genitals. She suffered from Bartholin's cysts, and somehow that translated into a biological deformity in her myth.

Right she was not intersexed, she did NOT have undeveloped genitalia.

Look at the horrible death pix at the r39 link. There are no undeformed or undeveloped genitalia. That was just made up bs by author John Gilmore, who also happened to say in his book "Severed" that he met the BDK in a hotel room. Then the killer happened to "accidentally" set his room on fire. Sure.

Oh and Gilmore made up a cop "Herman Willis" that said that she ingested feces before she was killed. Guess what? Herman Willis doesn't exist, and the autopsy said she didn't ingest feces before she died either.

So Gilmore is out as any authority. And the genitals unformed theory is not real in the least.

Hodel's son is really full of shit too.

Hodel was a creepy rapist of his daughter, it COULD BE that he was the killer. Bayley too but no proof has come out. Bayley is Larry Hamisch's from the LAT #1 suspect.

Why did r37 put a pic of an Ainu woman in this when he was talking about a German or Austrian woman? That is crazy.

This is the book that explains it all...gruesome pictures and all...

r64 what are you drinking? That book is pure bs. That book says that Marilyn Monroe was her buddy & she was pregnant by Norman Chandler (!! Publisher of the LAT) & he hired the mob to kill her!

Riiiight.

If you think Norm Chandler didn't cheat on Dorothy, than you are the one who is deluded.

And the mob connections between the media and the police are real, as well.

You write a more carefully constructed account of the death and maybe I'll read it. I won't pay retail, but I will check it out of the library.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

r66 - um, who said that Norm Chandler didn't cheat on Dorothy? No one.

What was said was that the book you linked to, published in 2006 is fiction. Total fiction.

Again r64 r66 read these reviews of your laughable book on TBD. It's pure fiction.

There is some possible link from the Cleveland Torso Murderer and this one.

R60 Dear, you must prove some sort of plausible link onto how she became targeted. Links, please.

I read the book---I can't just summarize everything in one place, unfortunately. The connections between the mob, the papers, and the police cannot be denied. Particularly since the police corruption ended up in the news, too.

One detail I do remember is that there was a mob power struggle, and the Dahlia's body was placed near Bugsy's rival's house. The carving of her face was supposedly a mob signature, so Bugsy was allegedly trying to frame his nemesis. Bugsy was also a sloppy drug addict and was making a huge mess of things with the construction of his hotel in Vegas. Lots of poor judgement there.

The book contained extensive LA history, which I found fascinating--the newspapers were king back then, and getting a scoop was paramount for the reporters.

I found the book at my library----check it out and see. Even if you don't believe the author's conclusion (and I don't see how you couldn't) the book is a "ripping good yarn", as my Scottish neighbor Derek says...

In my theory, the doctor's wife he moved out on lived around the corner. So who is your mafia resident on the street? I can even give you her address.

A woman did this.

Well. What now?

This guy has researched the case for years. He has a fascinating website and a plausible-sounding theory.

Esotouric in LA does a Black Dahlia tour of the city. It is excellent. They subscribe to Harnish's theory, linked in R74. I give them credence; they're expert LA true crime historians.

Larry was supposed to write a book but it looks like he never got around to it. Plus he hasn't updated his site in quite a while.

I enjoyed this 3 part series with Larry Harnisch, James, Ellroy ( and others) about the Black Dahlia murder.

The Black Dahlia Murder Theory Part 1/3

Where's the Hollywood witches looney? Isn't some yarn about a Studio City coven upcoming?

Hamisch is pretty credible but I'm not convinced Dr. Walter Bayley did it.

Hamisch likes Hodel btw, but does not believe Hodel is correct.

He hates Gilmore's book because he think's it's 75% fiction, 25% truth. Gilmore thinks that Jack Anderson Wilson did it, but his proof and links are sloppy, and he fictionalized a lot. Wilson DID die in a fire in 1982 & could have been the Cleveland Torso Murderer, which makes me think he also did TBD as well.

The person who killed the Dahlia was also responsible for the death, two years later, of Jean Spangler, the movie starlet who disappeared without a trace.

IDTS r80 - Jean did not get cut in half, for instance.

Thanks for the reply. Will catch this tomorrow.

and Lucie Arnaz as Elizabeth!!!!!

There was a sad murder that happened to a loud, drunken 40+ woman who was stomped to death outside a bar. I think her husband did it but people always compare the two murders. Not connected.

The case R84 is referring to is the "Lipstick Murder".

Did anyone here play LA Noire or know anyone who did? They go over the Lipstick Murders, TBD, Jean Spangler in it. Their theory is that it was someone high up did it, someone well connected.

There's also the 1940's Los Angeles blog and they loved to drive around in a test drive in the game.

From the 1947 blog I was talking about, Beth Short's last walk down the street. So cool!

Thanks for posting that, R87. Fascinating footage. What a sign of the times that I counted four separate furriers during the trip. The idea of wearing furs in temperate So Cal is so odd. Now it's nearly impossible to spot someone in furs anywhere in California. See's Candies stores' appearance haven't changed a bit in 60+ years. I was surprised by how littered the streets are. There's refuse everywhere.

That's the queer woman surgeon on the right, as mistress and the doctor's wife and litigant on the left.

Somebody else suspects a woman.

The PROPER term is Dahlia of Color.

WW R91

[quote]It is clear that a woman could have murdered Elizabeth Short; but could the woman have been Dr. Bayley’s mistress, Alexandra Partyka? The chances are that we’ll never know.

Another suspect is referred to simply as "Queer Woman Surgeon" in the Los Angeles district attorney's files on the case. Newspaper stories at the time implied that Short was a lesbian or bisexual, but the district attorney files state bluntly that Short "had no use for queers."

Where are the crime solvers?

How can she be a whore if her genitalia was not fully developed?

Unless you count blow jobs?

Just like you're a whore without a vagina. See how that works?

Not having a vagina and having undeveloped genitalia are two different things.

This crime will most likely be solved by the online community. There's always fresh eyes having a look at this.

The deformed genitalia was made up by a witness at the autopsy who misunderstood medical jargon.

Here's more women murders, including Dr. Alexandra

It was me. I'm a time traveler and shit.

Blanche Hudson.

So many untruths have been printed about the Black Dahlia case. So many books that claim to "solve" the murder. But the truth is that the murder was never solved and never would be.

Speaking of murders...there's a new book about the Fatty Arbuckle case called "Room 1219: the Life of Fatty Arbuckle, the Mysterious Death of Virginia Rappe, and the Scandal That Changed Hollywood." It's a very unbiased, well-researched account of what really happened at that three day party where Virginia Rappe suffered a serious injury that eventually killed her. And it debunks a lot of what was said about Virginia Rappe. Fatty's supporters say that she was half-dead when she came to the party, dying from chronic alcoholism or a botched abortion, that she was riddled with VD, that her death was her own fault. ALL of that was untrue. Anyway, it presents a very credible scenario of what really happened between Fatty Arbuckle and Virginia Rappe. Anybody who's interesting in finding out the facts about this case should read it.

So was Fatty a murderer/rapist?

Fatty was a douchebag, but not a rapist. THere was no rape with a coke bottle, or champagne bottle or piece of ice. He and Rappe did have a sexual encounter but there was no rape involved.

What happened was this. He was having a wild party with plenty of broads and bootleg liquor. Everybody there was drunk and having a good time. He and Virginia Rappe, both inebriated, went into his room. They had sex, or attempted to; it was consensual. And somehow during their tyrst her bladder got ruptured. She had chronic cystitis, which makes it difficult to urinate and her autopsy showed her bladder to be quite small. All of this made her more susceptible to an injury of this kind. The author surmises that it might have been Fatty's weight that squashed her bladder and made a tear in it. Or maybe during the sex act he jabbed her accidentally with an arm or leg. I imagine sex with a 300 pound man must be quite awkward. Anyway, she went into a room with him and it was there her bladder got ruptured.

After her bladder ruptured, she blacked out. She came to in terrible pain. A hotel doctor was called and gave her shots of morphine. She languished in the hotel for days before anyone got her to a hospital. By then perotonitis had set in and it killed her.

The book puts it this way: Fatty Arbuckle behaved very badly (during his trial he told several lies and made himself out to be a concerned good Samaritan, which he absolutely was not) but was not criminally liable for Rappe's death.

More post mortem photography. The girl on the right is dead, dead, dead!

There are tumblr and pinterest accounts but this one is the best I've seen

The baby in the carriage is dead.

Daisy Mae? Parker Posey? Lilly Tomlin?

I don't know. Mum's the word.

Ellroy's novel was so repulsive in content (not to cast aspersions on his writing style, which is very good) I had to give up about one-third of the way through. I don't know how you could make a film of it that's fit for human consumption.

Enough time has passed, so the murderer has most probably gone to his Maker to be judged.

[quote] Ellroy's novel was so repulsive in content (not to cast aspersions on his writing style, which is very good) I had to give up about one-third of the way through. I don't know how you could make a film of it that's fit for human consumption.

I just read this a couple of years ago. I remember thinking, the true story is lurid enough, do you really need all of this extra luridness. It seemed like overkill, and made what was already a dark narrative come across as an author who was simply trying to shock with over-excessive dark plot points.

Also, I know it was written from a time period when a white protagonist would not exactly have been politically correct on how he viewed minorities etc., but after awhile I felt it was more than just the character being racist or homophobic, but the author himself. It wasn't just that the character viewed minorities, gays, etc. as stereotypes, it is how they were presented period.

Bump