"Chinatown"

My all time fave film & music score. Love how they referenced the real water scandal of LA....Mulray, as the real MULHOLLAND, & how incorporating the SF Valley into LA to brought h20 to the city.

Some people have told me they couldn't follow the movie. I couldn't believe their idiocy at saying such.

[quote]Mulray, as the real MULHOLLAND,

The Mulwray character was not intended to be Mulholland (though the similarity of the names did refer back to Mulholland). It was the Mulwray character's father-in-law, Noah Cross (John Huston), who was intended to be the historical analogue for William Mulholland.

Might be the best movie ever made. Period.

[quote]Some people have told me they couldn't follow the movie. I couldn't believe their idiocy at saying such.

I saw it as a kid living in the Midwest, and I followed it, but I didn't even begin to appreciate the role water and Mulholland played in LA and California in general.

I can see where someone completely ignorant about Los Angeles could have trouble with it.

Noah Cross was a scary man.

The movie made me wonder- are the descendants of the Okies the ones who make the OC so conservative?

I agree. The music was haunting.

She's my sister. She's my daughter.

Jake forget about it....it's Chinatown.

I don't hate "The Two Jakes" (though Madeline Stowe is godawful in it) but ... "Chinatown" didn't need a sequel.

[quote]The movie made me wonder- are the descendants of the Okies the ones who make the OC so conservative?

More like the Central Valley.

It was the crazy fundamentalist Bren family that made the OC so conservative.

I think it's often considered the best screenplay of all time. And just after Citizen Kane and Casablanca as the best film (though many others could stake that claim).

The LA water history aspect of this movie is awesome - I'd never heard all of that before. It was the first time I'd heard of the St. Francis Dam disaster (called the Van der Lip Dam in the movie - but many reviews referenced the real thing).

One of my favorite films. Thanks for reminding me to get it out again.

Chinatown and The Godfather II are two of the greatest films ever made. An object lesson in why competing for best film of the year is in certain instances a silly farce.

No one has mentioned me yet!

We have had long, wonderful threads about Rosemary's Baby (that I enjoyed) - why such a tiny one about this?

I just watched it recently. I watched it once as a kid, found it interesting, but scary. Then in my 20s, sort of distracted with a date. And then now (last night) - great movie, is it not? I appreciate it even more now.

Tight, perfect script. Great casting. Beautiful outfits, decor, cinematography. Great music (that trumpet!). How did Jack and Faye and John not win Oscars?

IMPORTANT TRIVIA question for DL movie trivia experts - Whatever happened to the actress that played the daughter? Was she never in anything again? Was it because of this role?

A friend went to see the film and just at "she's my sister, she's my daughter" the film broke and they started it up again at (paraphrasing) "and that's the whole story" - there was a near riot in the theater.

R20, have you been holding onto that anecdote for 40 years?

any more Chinatown comments?

and what happened to the actress who played the daughter?

"Chinatown" didn't need a sequel."

Exactly. Having failed to save a woman before in his life, JJ Gittes is a dead man once Mrs. Mulwray is also killed. The Two Jakes is one of the most unnecessary movies ever made.

Though I have always loved, loved, loved Chinatown, I find its tragic implications and sense of corruption grow only more impressive with age (mine). Its sense of evil is absolutely terrifying. Something that I only discovered upon a most recent (hundredth) viewing: all the foreshadowing of Mrs. Mulwray's demise, in regards to the ocular: Burt Young's wife has a left black eye; John Huston's tell-tale spectacles (fished out of the pool) have a cracked left lens; Nicholson breaks the left tailight when he's tracking suspects...there are more but those are the first ones that come to mind. One of the towering cinematic achievements of the modern era.

After the "she's my sister, she's my daughter" revelation, Jake says to Evelyn "he raped you?" And if memory serves me correctly, Evelyn shakes her head. So he DIDN'T rape her? The sex between her (she was 15 at the time) and her absolutely repulsive father was consensual? I found that difficult to believe.

Yes, love all the details and echoes, R23. That is what makes it great.

I thought about that, too, R24. She could have shaken her head "no" as in I don't want to talk about it. She says next that she ran away to Mexico. Running away from someoene does not suggest consensual. And it is clear that she views him as evil throughout the film (i.e. not consensual). Or she could be shaking her head in a way that a raped child /damaged woman would be confused, or unable to speak. If it is the filmmakers suggesting that it could have been consensual, that is obviously disturbing. It certainly does not fit with the depiction of Huston as evil. Though I guess it would fit with the "Chinatown" theme - where one does not know who is good and who is bad.

In the commentary on the DVD, Polanski says Evelyn is the "hero" of the story.

The role was written with Jack Nicholson in mind.

Jane Fonda was considered for the Faye role. I am glad it went to Faye, who I thought was perfect for this. The one time I thought Jane played emotional/vulnerable well was in They Shoot Horses.

PERFECT movie. You know from that very first shot of Burt Young that you're in for one hell of a film.

No, r21.

Just watched this anazing film. Brilliant in every way. The greatest film ever made.

R25, I took it as the guilt that many incest victims feel. They blame themselves even if they were children.

Agree'd R30. I saw the head shake but took it like "I don't want to talk about it".

Most people never have to face the fact that, at the right time and right place, they’re capable of anything.

Mr. Gitts.

Chinatown is such a brilliant film. Everything about the film is superb - the directing, writing, acting, music score, cinematography.

It still devastates me. Even though I know what is going to happen, it's still shocking, sad and depressing.

I think Jack Nicholson, Faye Dunaway and John Huston gave their finest performances.

It's a shame that Faye is more associated with Joan Crawford then her earlier, great performances. And she is superb here. The "She's my sister, she's my daughter" is her big dramatic scene but her entire performance is very subtle. Every time she hears her father's name, you can see her whole demeanor change, her body shudder in fear, her placing her hand on her neck to cover her fear. It's a masterful performance where she masks the shame and fear that she lives in.

And Jack is at his most charming here. Beneath the sleazy detective is a kind-hearted man who realizes he has stumbled into deep corruption.

And I'm still surprised that John Huston agreed to play such a vile character. Like Dunaway, his performance is also subtle, each line dripping with smugness and threats. Brilliant performance.

And Jerry Goldsmith's score sells out on CD for a reason - it's stunning. One of his best works.

So well said R34.

The fact that Huston was not nominated is one of the greatest mysteries (and injustices) in the history of the Academy. And to think that his place on the list was given to Fred Astaire in The Towering Inferno.

He should have not only been nominated, but also win – regardless of how great De Niro was in The Godfather Part II. And beside him being the deserved winner, it would have made for the perfect bit of trivia – having three generations of Hustons not only winning Oscars, but doing it in the same category.

And speaking of the Hustons – Polanski directed John in the film which was the peak of his US film career only to have it finished in Anjelica’s home.

[R34] was much more eloquent, but I have to agree: Faye Dunaway may be out there, but she was so perfect in this role. I have heard that Jane Fonda and Julie Christie were considered for the part, and I love both of them, but they definitely went with the right actress. That brittle air of barely controlled neurosis Dunaway so often has, along with her elegance and beauty, couldn't be topped here. One of the truly great films.

Waiting for stylish, brittle women to break is one of the enduring pleasures of movies. Bette Davis built a great career on that dark device. Dunaway built a great performance on it as Evelyn Mulwray, the woman raped by her perfectly powerful, perfectly evil father (screenwriter Robert Towne thought the father’s sexual predation perfectly matched his rape of the virginal California landscape). Her breakdown (“She’s my sister, she’s my daughter”) is perhaps the iconic moment in post-modern American cinema.

[quote]The fact that Huston was not nominated is one of the greatest mysteries (and injustices) in the history of the Academy. And to think that his place on the list was given to Fred Astaire in The Towering Inferno.

Had he won such a nomination, that would have made him the only Best Director winner to also win an acting award, since Woody Allen has never won for acting.

They don't 'em like this anymore. I wonder how move like this would do at the box office today?

Bump. I pulled this dvd out for the hundredth time yesterday. What an absolute masterpiece, though so tragic and depressing. I feel such incredible sadness for Catherine and her sister/daughter at the end. I love that I still can't quite fully figure this film out, and there's always some new detail to notice and appreciate. Part of me almost holds back my concentration with each watching - I don't WANT to figure it out all at once.

I'm grateful, literally grateful, for the casting of Nicholson and Dunaway. So Jake Gittes was written with Jack in mind? There is simply no one else who could have played that character. And Faye is just superb. Thank God they didn't cast Jane Fonda. To me Jane has no mystery; plus I would have been thinking the whole time about her father Henry, yuck. John Huston was a little too good in that repulsive role.

A small question, maybe addressed in the movie and I missed it - how come Jake didn't carry a gun?

[quote]r37 I have heard that Jane Fonda and Julie Christie were considered for the part, and I love both of them, but they definitely went with the right actress.

It's scary to think of Ali MacGraw in this - the property was originally bought for Paramount by her husband.

This film could not be any better.

It really is a perfect film. I have a thing about period details, especially makeup and hairdos. In so many period films, it looks like some contemporary actress just slapped on some lipstick and made a few sausage curls with a hot iron. Faye's makeup (not to mention her features) and marcel waves were perfect!

Even though there is a cool early-70s vibe about the film, it's not intrusive at all. It looks and feels like the 1930s, just through a 70s lens. Or something.

I most [italic]certainly [/italic] agree

[quote]After the "she's my sister, she's my daughter" revelation, Jake says to Evelyn "he raped you?" And if memory serves me correctly, Evelyn shakes her head. So he DIDN'T rape her? The sex between her (she was 15 at the time) and her absolutely repulsive father was consensual? I found that difficult to believe.

Oh, I don't know -- it rang true to me.

R44 here again. I also like all the 1930s lingo. "That must really smart" (about Jack's nose). "How dya like them apples." Faye saying "surely" instead of "sure."

What are some of your favorite moments? I have many: - "I make an honest living! Hah?" - Jack in the barber shop - "I don't get tough, Mr. Gittes - my lawyer does." - Whenever Jack calls Curly "Curl." - "Middle of a drought, the water commissioner drowns - only in L.A." - "Morty" (heh) at the coroner's

Sorry, my comment at R47 was supposed to be a list. Forgot to hit "return"

I read the head shake as Evelyn saying "Ugh, it's all so very gross and unspeakable."

I hear plenty about Chinatown today, it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot and millennials love it.

For me, an excellent 1970s forgotten movie would be Sidney Lumet's Serpico (1973), Pacino's follow-up* to The Godfather. Pacino is broad but not as "I'm in on the joke" hammy that a lot of his performances were later.

* I'm conveniently leaving out the unfortunate buddy movie Scarecrow, directed by Jerry Schatzberg, with a good Gene Hackman performance.

The head shake could also convey her confusion - this was her father, she might have loved him in a way, but she was only 14 and he fucked with her head as well as her body.

Dunaway deserves a pass for all her eccentricities. She was perfect and brilliant. Everyone as. The cinematography was beautiful and they did a brilliant job of recreating 1930's LA. Loved Evelyn's house. I googled it, it's in Pasadena which is where old money power lived in LA back then.

The two greatest Los Angeles films IMO, Chinatown and Blade Runner, were both made by Europeans - Polanski and Ridley Scott. They both captured something unique about it - I can’t put my finger on just what, but they got a quality of it that I haven’t seen in many other films about Los Angeles made by Americans. I visited LA for the first time last year and there were moments when I felt like I was in each film.

My favorite scene is Chinatown is the bridge scene and I regret not being able to visit this site because it was so far out in the Valley (Foothill Boulevard over the Tujunga Wash) but it is just such a perfect “only in Los Angeles” scene with these Depression-era lampposts over this dry desert creek with the foothills in the background.

I would contrast that bridge scene with the Colorado Bridge scene in La La Land (not even a scene, just a shot, but used heavily in its key art). Really one of the worst movies about Los Angeles.

Chazelle tried to make Los Angeles as Paris

While Polanski understood Los Angeles as itself

That pretty bridge in Pasadena (known locally as "Suicide Bridge," lovely), actually does look like that. Very charming.

R55 r56 Yes , absolutely! Paris is beautiful but it is not LA. If Chazelle wanted a Parisian film, he should have set it there. Polanski understood the spirit and vibe of Los Angeles. I think Los Angeles has a unique, dark beauty that some do not appreciate.

Yes, the earthy color palette of the movie is just right, and so beautiful.

Thank you for bumping this thread. I really need to see it again. I also need to get it on Blu-ray. Such a stunning looking film.

I consider this to be the greatest work of all involved - Polanski, Nicholson, Dunaway, Huston and Jerry Goldsmith (although he would go on two years later to win the Oscar for his iconic score for The Omen).

R52 It slightly pains me to hear all the Mommie Dearest jokes when Faye gave such a great performance in Chinatown . Fonda or Christie would not have worked, Dunaway had just the right amount of hardness. Fonda in particular would be too girlish.

But it’s a film by another child rapist. I guess that’s why he knew what to film

If I remember correctly Polanski fought with some of the producers over the depressing ending of the film. He explained the downcast ending by saying something to the effect of ( I'm paraphrasing here )"I wanted it to be realistic, and in this world evil so often does win ".

She's looking at him like, "Maybe he could shut up right about now?"

R64 Gorgeous still

I saw this movie in the theaters when it first came out in 1974, also the year I graduated from high school. I saw it again 20 years later (1994) and I couldn’t believe how much of it I didn’t get the first time I saw it because, of course, my life as a high schooler was so sheltered. I had changed a lot in 20 years, somewhat to my own dismay.

When Noah says: You see, Mister Gittes, most men never have to face the fact that, at the right time, they're capable of... anything—The second time I had an idea of what that actually meant. Chilling.

R65 Faye and Polanski hated each other by all accounts. I guess they were both dominant personalities who wouldn't cede to each other. The urine throwing story makes today's silly onset feuds look like child's play. Though despite it all, this was probably Dunaways best performance. Maybe the tension helped.

R67 "Under the right circumstances... most men and capable of anything ". There's a lot of truth to that quote, as misanthropic as it is.

[quote]Jane Fonda was considered for the Faye role. I am glad it went to Faye, who I thought was perfect for this. The one time I thought Jane played emotional/vulnerable well was in They Shoot Horses.

Considering all the baggage Fonda carries around about Henry, and the way she's let men skull fuck her her entire life I think she would have given an amazing performance and maybe taken it in directions we can't imagine. At the very least it might have saved us from having to sit through On Golden Pond.

The amazing thing about Chinatown is that the movie completely trusts the intelligence of the audience. There isn't a second where it feels the need to stop and explain what's happening or dumb it down so we're sure to get it. It's like one of those foreign language courses where they teach through immersion--if you're getting 4 words out of 5 you're doing fine, just sit there and let it flow.

I can imagine Jane's overly distinctive voice delivering those lines about "my- my father." Just no.

Very astute, R70, I totally agree.

Certainly no Japanese, Italian or French films would ever qualify for the Top 10.

Dunaway was perfect in this film. I love Fonda, but I can't imagine her playing the fragility, masked shame and haughty shell that Dunaway portrayed.

Plus her chemistry with Nicholson was very strong. I can't imagine Christie or Fonda having that special connection with Nicholson in the same way Dunaway did. Although it's not really a love story, Jake's compassion for Evelyn (in addition to his attraction) lets us see another side of Jake.

Definitely Dunaway's best performance in my opinion.

Talking with my partner now about the film, and how the real-life Noah Cross inspirations really did create today's Los Angeles, this vast sprawl, through moves like incorporating the land then bringing the water to it. Really took vision and guts, and very likely a ruthless, amoral streak.

[quote]r74 her chemistry with Nicholson was very strong. I can't imagine Christie or Fonda having that special connection with Nicholson in the same way Dunaway did.

In her autobiography, Dunaway says Nicholson would call her late at night in Spain where she was shooting THE THREE/FOUR MUSKATEERS, and tell her it was a special project she should hold out for. She had a firm offer to do another film that was ready to go, but he wanted her to be available to play opposite him as Evelyn if they offered her the part.

I think he sensed there was just something about her that would work in the role, and he believed the two of them would be the right match.

Gene Siskel: "As much as I admire the work of both (Roman) Polanski and (Jack) Nicholson, I found "Chinatown" tedious from beginning to just before the end. . . ."

Huh. I wonder if that was his review when the movie first came out, did he later change his mind? Did he feel like a dope when every other critic hailed it as a masterpiece?

....and I imagine Gene's pan is why "Chinatown" has only a 98% fresh status on Rotten Tomatoes. Whereas "Lady Bird" and "Toy Story 2" enjoy 100%.

Imagine having this plus Bonnie and Clyde and Network in your filmography? Jane Fonda's career can't hold a candle to Faye's, two Oscars or not.

Siskel still owes me the price of a ticket for his review of My Dinner With Andre.

r79 Imagine having this plus Bonnie and Clyde and Network in your filmography? Jane Fonda's career can't hold a candle to Faye's, two Oscars or not.

Mmmmmm .... not really. Dunaway enjoyed some amazing projects, but most of her resume is made up of misfires if not DRECK.

It's remembered as a classic, but wasn't commercially successful at the time. That probably also hurt its Oscar chances.

It was shocking and beautiful to me when I first saw it. Still a work of genius, mystery and prescience.

The subtle doom in every line like even when Gittes calls the cops to Alameda Avenue, you think - what has he done? And the scene with the gardener, birds chirping. And the hearty laughing evil of Huston's character is how all the Rs are now. Jovial criminals making funny lines around their conquests of earth and man and woman. (When Barr started to obfuscate and misrepresent the Mueller report, I said to my friend "Forget it Jake, It's Chinatown." )

Don't judge me, but it took a long time for me to realize that's Diane Ladd in the role of Ida Sessions. I thought it was some character actress. Well, in a way it was.

I love her scene, where she's all dolled up fancy, playing the wife of a powerful man, feathery hat and cigarette holder and all.

That's how good the film is (and the screenplay) because as you point out r84 Diane Ladd's scenes, despite being small, are memorable.

I love when whenever anyone says "Mr. Gittes". What a name!

And let's talk about the gorgeous poster art. What happened to great poster art?

Anyone on this thread live in LA? Whenever I'm on the 110 freeway north near Dodger Stadium and I go under those Art Deco-y tunnel entrances, I think of "Chinatown." It looks like a scene in the movie. Actually, it's just past Chinatown.

Clueless Diane Ladd noticer here, I also did not know Crispin Glover's father Bruce plays one of Jake's operatives. Neato!

Yes, the poster is stunning. My partner has it framed in his office (he works in showbiz, so it's acceptable). I kind of want one for myself.

The Figueroa Street tunnels were not in Chinatown but god knows how many movies they’ve been in.

Interesting aside, they are actually building replicas of them in Disney’s Hollywood Studios in Orlando. They will transition the Los Angeles themed areas of the park to Star Wars land.

Amazing score. Interesting article linked. Jerry Goldsmith wrote it in 10 days!

I think LA Confidential and LA Story are two other fantastic LA films that really capture the feel of the place. Anybody else agree/disagree?

I need to rewatch those two, R92. I saw them when I was still living in NYC and putting down LA. Having lived in LA for 16 years now, I bet my viewing experience will be very different.

The first season of Goliath on Amazon Prime is absolutely drenched in Los Angeles-ness, especially downtown and Santa Monica.

The "Figueroa Street tunnels," is that what they're called? I live in LA and never knew. It's a shame they're usually defaced with graffiti.

I enjoyed that series Goliath

The other thing is, Faye plays aristocratic better than Jane.

A related anecdote is that once I drank LA's tap water and I became instantly pregnant with a mexican boy I called Jesus!

The Fig Street tunnels are done in a style called Depression Moderne which is curiously evocative of Old Los Angeles. The best known example being of course City Hall. The unadorned grey concrete and rigid symmetry seem somehow appropriate for the city at the edge of the desert. Gives it almost a neo-Babylonian aesthetic.

How much did Khan know? He seemed protective of Evelyn and Catherine.

I just now watched Faye’s head shake. It is masterful, not quite a denial, kind of a weird acknowledgment or dismissal. Open to all kinds of interpretation.

It's also my favorite move. See where it was filmed.

R99 - City hall has a concrete structure however it is entirely clad in grey California granite or terra cotta. Not concrete.

[italic]YOU IN DANGER, GURL!

Huston was so creepy in that last scene.

The '70s had such grim, unforgettable endings - Chinatown, Looking for Mr. Goodbar, Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

[quote]r97 The other thing is, Faye plays aristocratic better than Jane.

Which is interesting, as Fonda was raised in Manhattan and Greenwich, while Dunaway's father was a Florida sharecropper / Army grunt.

The fact that she turned it down might indicate Fonda didn't identify with the project or character super closely, though. She was NOT making fabulous films in those 2 or 3 years, though, so it's odd she did lesser stuff.

Let's not pit Jane vs. Faye. They're both great. I think Faye in Bonnie & Clyde and Jane in They Shoot Horses, Don't They are two of the finest performances of the late '60s and Faye in Chinatown and Jane in Klute are two of the finest performances of the early '70s.

Not pitting, just comparing their merits for this particular role. I guess for me Faye conveys a certain vulnerability. I think of Jane as more of a tough cookie. Sort of like Joan and Bette - Both great in different kinds of roles.

The last time I watched this I really noticed how gorgeous the score is. Seems like a lost art. So often now movie music is so overbearing and ugly that I wish there was no score at all.

Fonda says she was never offered the role. Nicholson was set on Miss Dunaway from a very early stage, and he convinced Polanski, who in turn convinced the producer Robert Evans.

This photo is everything.

Love Faye - love the movie.

r104 - good point. Add Day of the Locust, Parallax View, Blow Out...so many movies for adults, with the endings to match, made by major studios.

Don't forget the great grim ending to The Conversation - also 1974. In fact Chinatown and The Conversation make a fantastic double feature.

R44 I've always had a fondness for 1970s films set in the 1930s. I have no idea why, but there is something about the way the 1970s interpretation of the 1930s through that hazy cinematography and, typically, excellent costume and production design.

I watched Robert Altman's Thieves Like Us this afternoon and while it's NOWHERE on the same level of Chinatown, I just loved the 1930s-vibe. I love Day of the Locust, The Conformist, Amarcord, etc. for the same 1930s via 1970s look.

Jane is a great celebrity still, but she's not a real actress. She never disappears into any of her roles. Besides, Fonda doesn't have a real classic movie, only hits at their time that are never discussed today, just like Meryl Streep. Heck, even Mommie Dearest is talked about nowadays, whereas none of Jane's roles are relevant anymore. Horses is a very good performance but the movie is flawed. And Klute is dated. Na, Faye's classic roles are immortal. She's nuts, but she's memorable. Fonda is american royalty, but only because she's kind of a fame whore.

r114 = Jill Clayburgh

Oh christ! Next up Liv ULLMANNNNNN

Son of a bitch! Goddamn Florsheim shoe.

Yeah, I loved it.

“She never disappears into any of her roles.“

Exactly. I never forget it’s Jane Fonda. Not so with Faye, as distinctive as she is.

R116 Liv lost the Oscar to Faye.

For Faye, sorry

Must we really bicker about Faye and Jane? Can't we count our blessings and just be thankful Robert Evans didn't get to cast Ali McGraw in the lead role?

Both Faye and Jane were stellar actors. Ali was literally the pits - totally agree R122. Chinatown is my vote for the greatest film of all time. It is absolutely PERFECT in every way.

R123 I mostly agree with everything in this post. However I think I’m the only person on the planet who liked Ali in love story, thought she was great, perfect Jenny.

This thread and r123's post has made me reassess Chinatown. I've always loved this film, but I think this may be my favourite movie of all time.

Polanski's Tess and Rosemary's Baby are two of my favourite films of all time. But Chinatown really has everything - great writing and acting, stunning cinematography, haunting score, engrossing story, romance, villains, mystery and then a much larger, darker story. The type of film where you discover something new every time you see it.

“The type of film where you discover something new every time you see it.”

Exactamundo. For this reason I savor different things every time I watch it, let my attention linger on different details. It’s like not wanting to finish the puzzle.

For a long time “all about Eve” was my favorite, with “Chinatown” as a second. I think I have to put Chinatown first now.

Yeah, and the other thing is every time - EVERY time - the ending comes, I hope for a different ending. I know it's coming but I hope somehow goodness will prevail.

And then it hits you in the gut again.

It’s a great film but I have to wonder how beloved it would be if it didn’t have such a cool title. What if it were called “Jake and Evelyn”? Or, as they’d be called today, “Jevelyn”?

Ah, but the title is part of the perfection, innit?

Interesting trivia here...I grew up with a kid who was William Mulholland's granddaughter, the real life person John Huston's character is based on. I don't know why they moved to some "out in the boonies" town in Central California but I was told they wanted to get away from LA. There was some scandal associated with WM but I'm to sure what it was.

Anyway, they were rich and owned a huge farm. She was a strange klutzy girl who had a vivid imagination. She said they had an old grandfather clock and it was haunted by her grandfather, William Mulholland. She said weird things would happen around that clock.

The word “Chinatown” is indeed very evocative. Incense, opium, mystery! I believe there was kind of a craze for Chinese style in the 1920s and 30s, so that fits too. Clara Bow had a famous “Chinese room” in her mansion.

Great great movie

Chinoiserie decor has been chic since the 17th century, doll.

I meant in LA/Hollywood, poppet.

I took a trip not long ago to Catalina, where I was tickled to see the "Albacore" club, actually called the Tuna Club.

(I of course also had a ghoulish desire to see the restaurant where Natalie, R.J. and Chris got drunk that night, but it was on the other side of the island and I didn't have time.)

If you see the IMDB rankings of the best movies, LA Confidential is rated a little higher than Chinatown.

I really liked LA Confidential, it had a more uplifting ending but it didn't win all the awards that Chinatown did. Chinatown is a classic film noir, a tragedy with some realism and history thrown in.

I went on a TCM cruise and the noir expert Eddie Mueller presented this film. He was practically jumping off the walls because he was so excited about showing it. Really got the me pumped to watch it.

[quote]Chinoiserie decor has been chic since the 17th century, doll.

Tell me about it.

Must revisit LA Confidential. I saw it in the theater at the time, and frankly don't remember a thing about it. Kim Basinger, vaguely. But otherwise not one thing.

[quote]For a long time “all about Eve” was my favorite, with “Chinatown” as a second. I think I have to put Chinatown first now.

Well, fuck you very much.

LA Confidential was mostly about LAPD corruption, starred Russell Crowe, Kevin Spacey and Guy Pearce in their prime. Lot of old Hollywood thrown in like Veronica Lake, Lana Turner and Mickey Spillane as side characters.

R136, I LOVE L.A. Confidential. It is an excellent film and one of my top 30. That said, it doesn't hold a candle to Chinatown.

For background on the California Water Wars of 100 years ago, you might want to read "Cadillac Desert" by Marc Reisner or watch the PBS documentary of the same title. Los Angeles basically killed the Owens Valley and in fact owns more than 200,000 acres of it just for the water rights.

I agree, R142. Plus, Chinatown had Nicholson at his most brilliant and most desirable stage in his career.

I'm with r4. It is a profound film and tragedy of the first order (especially in the light of Polanski's life experience) that becomes richer with each viewing.You can watch it again and again for different reasons: the cunning ocular motif, or Nicholson's ties, or the acting of Walsh and Duffy (the latter, by the way, is the father of Crispin Glover) . I just saw it two nights ago and caught a line that never resonated for me before. When Jake goes to the registrar's office, he tells the obnoxious clerk he needs a ruler "because I'd like to be able to read across." Unintentional? I doubt it. Bad for glass.

But I think THE TWO JAKES was a terrible misjudgment. Jake, having experienced two personal losses by the end of the movie, is essentially a dead man. There was no sequel to anything in his future.

Liked Jake’s jokes.

The line "Salt water... bad for glass." seems very important. But I never understood its meaning. Can someone explain this to me?

Read across. Nice. I'm going to look for more wordplay in future viewings. And visual puns, too. I'm sure they're all laid out on endless film discussion threads online, but it's fun to try and discover them for one's self.

Anyone know the Chinese (?) phrase Jake says to Khan when he busts in the door toward the end? (Google is my friend, I know.)

[quote]If I remember correctly Polanski fought with some of the producers over the depressing ending of the film. He explained the downcast ending by saying something to the effect of (I'm paraphrasing here) "I wanted it to be realistic, and in this world so often does win".

The version I remember was something like "I didn't want a happy Hollywood ending; I wanted it to be realistic. And the reality is, in Los Angeles, beautiful, innocent blondes get murdered."

"Chinatown" is one of my favorite films; the granddaddy (along with "The Long Goodbye") of "Neo-noir".

"Salt water . . . bad for grass."

The coroner's report shows that Mulwray had salt water in his lungs, so he didn't drown in the reservoir. When Gittes realizes the pond holds salt water, he suspects Mulwray was drowned in the pond.

Why is Jake Gittes essentially a dead man at the end of the movie?

Are you sincere, r147, or pulling one on us? If the former, well, here goes...

English isn't the Asian gardener's native tongue, so he unintentionally confuses "grass" for "glass" by virtue of his Chinese dialect. He states a fact: salt water kills grass. But as we discover...

SPOILER AHEAD

we learn Huston kills his son-in-law in the pond and, in the process, accidentally loses his spectacles in the water (which link him to the scene of the crime) and which Jake uses to incriminate him. So "bad for glass" has an ironic, cunning double meaning.

Ok thanks.

[quote]LA Confidential was mostly about LAPD corruption, starred Russell Crowe, Kevin Spacey and Guy Pearce in their prime. Lot of old Hollywood thrown in like Veronica Lake, Lana Turner and Mickey Spillane as side characters.

Excuse me, but did any of those people win an Oscar for that movie?

I didn't think so.

Polanski supposedly pulled hair out of Dunaway's head which enraged her. (hope this hasn't already been mentioned. I didn't read the whole thread.)

He also made her up to resemble his mother, who died in Auschwitz.

God, can you picture that odious old reptile Noah Cross personally holding Hollis down under the water? Shiver.

Now that I think of it, do we see Cross wearing glasses in the movie? Like at that lunch?

The screenwriter, Robert Towne, also fought Polanski over the ending, which originally had Evelyn go to prison, rather than die.

R155 That reminds me, isn't it rumoured that Faye threw a cup of her own piss at Polanski when he wouldn't let her take a bathroom break or something of that nature?

"do we see Cross wearing glasses in the movie? Like at that lunch?"

Yup. Huston even takes them off to inspect Jake's fish (more eye and water imagery).

R157 There is one early scene (I think it was indeed the lunch scene) where Cross moves his glasses closer to read the small print of a newspaper.

I'm sure there are a number of reasons, and there are other posters here who could answer this better than I can, but I'll try.

I think it's basically because Jake is powerless to stop the evil of Cross and that the evil is even greater than he realized. He can't save Catherine from Cross' clutches and maybe in a way if Jake hadn't pursued this, Evelyn might still be alive.

Sorry I was answering r151

“Cherchez la femme”

“Find the girl.”

Boy, once you start with this film....

I love the moment in Yaleburton's office when, for no reason at all, Nicholson turns around to look at the framed Albacore Club pennant or flag on the wall behind him. There is no reason for him to this, other than Polanski and/or Towne want to make damn sure that the insignia and the club are imbedded in our unconscious for future reference. If they had an arrow drop down from the ceiling that said, "Look here," they couldn't have been more clear. Of course you never realize that until way after the fact (and dozens of viewings).

Poor Catherine. You can’t help imagining the terrible fate that awaits her. I thought whoever played her was very good.

You know Cross will breed her for the same reason he tells Jake: "The future, Mr Gittes, the future."

Crissakes the purple prose and hyperbole in this thread. Reminds me of the endless wankfest thread about The Comeback.

This movie is 45 years old. It deserves all the hyperbole.

I get angry at Jake though, because rather than getting the two women safely out of town, he wants to collect his fee from Cross and in the process tips him off and louses up everything. He should have valued their lives more than tricking Noah into getting him more money.

That's not his m.o. He's luring Cross into a meeting so he can trap him with the glasses, not to collect his fee. Jake's our hero!

[quote]r113 I've always had a fondness for 1970s films set in the 1930s. I have no idea why, but there is something about the way the 1970s interpretation of the 1930s through that hazy cinematography and, typically, excellent costume and production design.

Charlotte Rampling in FAREWELL MY LOVELY (set in 1941)

Who would have ever guessed she'd still be with us? Her career was always on the brink of taking off ... then just sputtered around in circles upon circles.

Jake didn't trust Evelyn at the last minute. There was something that he found (which I can't remember) that made him think Evelyn was playing him for a fool which is why he called his detective friend and told him about Evelyn's whereabouts. If he had only trusted her, she would have gotten away. In that sense, he was responsible for her death.

[quote]r112 Can't we count our blessings and just be thankful Robert Evans didn't get to cast Ali McGraw in the lead role?

Ali schtupping Steve McQueen on the set of THE GETAWAY -- which caused Paramount head Evans to dump her -- also saved us from enduring MacGraw in THE GREAT GATSBY ... which was also earmarked for her at the time. Of the schtupping.

I've always liked the scene where Jake visits Mulwray's office and has to deal with his butch secretary.

Thank God, we were saved from seeing Ali McGraw in Chinatown, Dunaway was perfect. I think McGraw would have made an okay Daisy though. She's beautiful but distant. Mia looked horrid in that wig.

[quote]r154 Excuse me, but did any of those people win an Oscar for that movie? I didn't think so.

We all utterly adore you in your Oscar winning performance, Miss Kim. Don't you worry about that.

[quote]r168 Crissakes the purple prose and hyperbole in this thread. Reminds me of the endless wankfest thread about The Comeback.

L.A. Confidential is to Chinatown as Star Wars is to 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Recording it right now, Ovation Channel.

I've always thought Beaches was the greatest movie, and it's certainly my favorite, but I may have to replace it now with Chinatown.

I love the scene at the Hall of Records with Jake and that prissy queen of a clerk.

You won the Oscar Miss Kim Basinger........and then were barely heard from again.

Brilliant movie. Great performances. One of my favorites.

LA Confidential was a great movie. The novel is the most complex novel I have ever tried to read. The movie cut down/out a lot and was/is well done.

[quote] That's not his m.o. He's luring Cross into a meeting so he can trap him with the glasses, not to collect his fee. Jake's our hero!

Why? He already knew everything about the glasses he needed to know. And that came at a later confrontation if I remember correctly. At first he was trying to double cross Cross by feigning that he would reveal the girl in return for the fee. Right?

Yes, it's a ruse to lure Cross in order to confront him with the glasses and his knowledge of the truth. But at no point does Jake operate from baser motives.

Chinatown is a better film because it does not have a Hollywood happy ending where the bad guy gets busted and the hero rides off with his lady. Instead it has a dark and disturbing ending, where everything is "all wrong" but you just have to accept it. This gives it more of a literary, artful quality than a commercial Hollywood feel. In the long run Polanski was right to insist on this ending.

I agree R188. And yet the movie for me is not a complete downer. The “triumph of the human spirit” part, if you will, is Evelyn’s poignant determination to protect and care for her daughter. She fought to the end. I find that terribly moving.

Then the movie is flawed, r187. Did he really NEED confirmation? He was not a stupid person. And why would you put yourself in danger like that? What did he think Noah would do -offer to turn himself in?

Of course I admire CHINATOWN, but it's not a film I'm drawn to revisit very often. It's kind of like a revered ancestor.

L.A. CONFIDENTIAL is one I can watch many times.

r191, just stop. You're twisting my words around. You don't believe me, go watch the damn movie. Sheesh.

This guy does an analysis of why this movie has the "greatest screenplay of all time."

Thanks, r194

[quote]I've always liked the scene where Jake visits Mulwray's office and has to deal with his butch secretary.

That was as Fritzi Burr!

Towne's screenplay is brilliant, yet Polanski was right to insist on the bleaker ending. The film rises to the level of tragedy, and it happens so fast that it takes your breath away with how cruel and unfair life can be. Evelyn changes from ambiguous femme fatale to tragic heroine in an instant.

[quote]I love the moment in Yaleburton's office when, for no reason at all, Nicholson turns around to look at the framed Albacore Club pennant or flag on the wall behind him. There is no reason for him to this, other than Polanski and/or Towne want to make damn sure that the insignia and the club are imbedded in our unconscious for future reference. If they had an arrow drop down from the ceiling that said, "Look here," they couldn't have been more clear. Of course you never realize that until way after the fact (and dozens of viewings).

I caught it the other night on Showtime, and you're right, they all but light it up with neon to make sure we see it, but I've watched the movie a dozen times and never noticed it until you mentioned it.

No one has yet to post the trailer, so I figured I would...

That trailer was pretty bad. The trailers nowadays sell the movie better and sometimes are better than the movie.

why did he have to slap her like that? Did Jake beat his girlfriends occasionally?

because he had just had his nose sliced in pieces and was sick of her lying

R73 Sauvons "La règle du jeu"!!

If the movie were to be released today, the # MeToo movement would absolutely start a boycott over the slapping scene. Today's snowflakes can only stomach happy, vacuous films starring Jennifer Aniston or Julia Roberts.

Of course Netflix doesn't offer it anymore. But somehow, they can buy up hundreds of garbage movies that look like they were produced for Canadian television. I would rather that Netflix offer a smaller selection of decent movies than thousands of poor quality ones.

It’s on Prime now.

I have found that Paramount releases usually rotate on the big three streamers.

R204 Well within the last few years, everytime a Polanski film is discussed on an entertainment website, there will always be a bunch of sanctimonious commenters proudly announcing that they will never watch one of his films and how dare the writer even discuss Polanski's movies and so on and on. I've seen discussions that were supposed to be about his films completely derailed rehashing stuff that happened 40 years ago. If someone doesn't want to watch his films that's their choice , but it's the over the top piety that gets my eyes rolling. Like these people have never supported a business /company or organization that has caused harm to someone out there. They'll happily fork over their money to businesses that run sweatshops but act like they are so pure morally for not watching his films.

I grew up in Chinatown and watched this movie I lived there. It was probably in the early 90's. I remember being a little confused by how little of the movie is set in Chinatown. Of course, in the movie Chinatown is an sentiment and not a place. Not a movie buff, but for me, it's the best 70's movie and the 70's was the best decade for movies.

I haven't seen the movie in nearly 30 years. I should--I think a lot of it went over my head even though I was more aware of LA history than most teenagers at the time. But I was also pretty naive.

When men dismiss how women are devalued and mistreated in Hollywood, they might note what's cited as key in the r201 scene:

Bit player James Hong, who doesn't even utter a line, has a link ... but not Faye Dunaway.

Doesn't that kind of sum it all up?

When I watched it the other day I was struck by the courage Polanski and Towne showed by avoiding the obvious temptation to let Jake explain what was happening to his friend the police detective (and through the detective to the audience). It would have been so easy to add 30 seconds of dialogue over the course of the movie and explain everything.

Instead, every word Jake utters to the police is either an out and out lie, or more often, absolutely meaningless. Next time you watch it zero in on what Jake tells them, it's beautiful how carefully crafted it is.

. "If someone doesn't want to watch his films that's their choice , but it's the over the top piety that gets my eyes rolling"

Mine, too. No one went to eat at a Mario Batali restaurant or watch a Woody Allen movie (just to name two examples) on the basis of their character. All you cared about is, is the food good? Will I be entertained? But once they and others were discovered to have feet of clay and are actually human, suddenly the reactionaries climbed up on their high horse in high dudgeon and a moral squint and demanded their heads. What's next, removing Caravaggios from museum walls because he was a murderer? Or banning Wagner from opera houses because he was a poster boy for the Nazis? It's all so infantile and hypocritical you want to vomit.

r198, in thinking about it some more, I'm wondering if Yaleburton guiltily looks over Nicholson's shoulder at the Albacore insignia (which of course the audience doesn't see, given the POV) and Gittes reacts accordingly. I can't imagine Nicholson would justify his backward glance without some kind of motivation. Of course, this gives me reason to watch the movie again for the 500th time.

R211 Thank you.

Sorry to disagree with everyone, but I disliked Dunaway - she was pure ice throughout and there was absolutely no connection between her and Nicholson imho. I first saw the film in 1974 when it first came out. Young Fonda could have easily added more nuance to the role, it seems no one here remembers her pre-9 to 5. But she'd never have gotten the part because of her political activities in the early 1970s. Btw, no serious anti-Vietnam resistor took Jane Fonda's "revolutionary" horeseshit seriously except for maybe Tom Hayden.

[quote]r211 No one went to eat at a Mario Batali restaurant or watch a Woody Allen movie on the basis of their character... It's all so infantile.

Right. Basically, [italic]fuck[/italic] everyone else. Above all, it's all about YOU, and YOUR enjoyment.

Just pick your way across the bodies on the way in, like a good little sympathizer - -

What human being in the history of mankind could live up to your high standards and noble conception of yourself, r215!

I have a great book, written in 1985 by the film critic David Thomson, called SUSPECTS, in which he cleverly weaves imagined scenarios and interactions between a whole slew of classic film characters (85 to be exact!) It speculates, for example that Noah Cross and Norma Desmond were lovers in the 1920s, and that he bought her mansion; and that late in life, Noah Cross meets and beds Mary Ann Simpson (BODY HEAT) and teaches her a few tricks; that Joe Gillis and Norma Desmond actually had a son, raised by Max, who turned out to be Julian Kaye (AMERICAN GIGOLO). Lots and lots of favorites cross paths in this book, including Evelyn Mulwray, Walter Neff and Phyllis Diedrichson, Kay Corleone, Guy Haines and Bruno, Jack Torrance, and a ton of others. Jake Gittes ends up in Hanoi, where he ends up "working for a gaming club called the Red Sash" - it doesn't say whether Russian roulette was part of the "gaming." Even Norman Bates makes an appearance. And Evelyn Cross is spotted in the July 4th party photo that hangs in the Overlook Hotel. It's a lot of fun to read.

Dunaway's ice queen thing worked because for most of the movie you really aren't supposed to trust her. And eventually it's revealed that there's a good reason for her chilly reticence, just one we hadn't suspected.

That's when the ice should have melted, R218, even for an instant. It did not.

R215 I'm very curious about something. Do you boycott oil because it comes from human rights violator Saudi Arabia? Do you refuse to wear clothes or use electronics made in sweat shops? Do you avoid shopping at companies that mistreat their employees? Do you not use anything with palm oil, which has caused conflict in South Asia? What about eating meat raised in inhumane conditions? Do you refuse to read the New York Times, which helped push for our war in Iraq? I'm struck time and time again with the obsession over sexual abuse as the worst thing that could possibly happen ever, while things that are just as bad and often considerably worse are shrugged off in American society. The moral posturing can all be a bit much.

I don't say it loud nowadays because who knows if your life will be ruined. But as a previous poster had pointed out, we admire plenty of artists even if their personal conduct was repulsive and/or criminal. The only difference is time. No one averts their eyes when they see a Carravaggio even if they knew he was a murderer. And most people know Picasso was no picnic.

Can't say it but the truth is, if pop music is still relevant a hundred years from now, Michael Jackson will be discussed as an artist and his music will have an audience. And no one will feel they must boycott him.

I'm okay with loving Chinatown as a movie and that also believe if Polanski ever stepped foot in the US, he should be arrested. What he did to a child was reprehensible but it doesn't negate the fact he directed a magnificent movie. Sure, I know the next step would be someone asking if I would watch a Pol Pot movie if he directed a masterpiece...Look it's not all black and white.

"The moral posturing can all be a bit much."

To me it smacks of inverted empathy, the narcissistic behavior peculiar to our age : Other people’s suffering becomes about you. You get to feel you’re owed a measure of the deference and compassion that the victims are (to quote The Ethicist in the NYTimes).

"Look it's not all black and white."

And that's the take-home tune. There's a nebulous moral area in all human endeavor that requires careful consideration on a case by case basis, not simplistic blanket condemnation.

Funny how a conversation about moral ambiguity is taking place in a thread about Chinatown.

R222 Yes ,I agree with your sentiments . Well said.

R222, right in your last paragraph, but the social media world we live in now doesn't abide by grey areas. I'm only in my 40's but feel very out of step with the world we have now.

The fact that Polanski screwed some underage girl. doesn't interest me, especially since it doesn't seem to have much of anything to do with Chinatown.

Now if you want to talk about how Chinatown was the first movie he made after the Manson Murders and whether or not that's at least partially responsible for the bleak ending, well, you've got my attention.

Back to Chinatown, I agree with R218 in that Dunaway NAILED Evelyn. The ice queen worked for the role and her thinly veiled fear throughout the film was also very palpable. She turned out one of the greatest performances of all time and looked gorgeous doing it. What a shame that her career never recovered from Mommie Dearest (also a great performance, just a very different one). I love Jane Fonda, but she would have been a poor second choice for this role. IMO, this was Dunaway's greatest performance - and she had MANY to choose from.

Thanks, r206, I have it on now. There's an albacore reference early on. After Curly sees the photos of his cheating wife, he tells Gittes he'll send him the rest of the money later. He just pulled in a load of skipjack, and they don't pay as much for skipjack as they do for albacore.

Nitpicking R225 but Macbeth was Polanski's first film after the Manson murders (also not exactly lighthearted)

R225 I believe it was actually his first film back in the United States. Macbeth was filmed in Europe. He was apparently hesitant to comeback to Los Angeles initially. And yes ,I think his own experiences helped him understand the darker and seedier side of sunny and beautiful California.

" the social media world we live in now doesn't abide by grey areas. I'm only in my 40's but feel very out of step with the world we have now."

And you have good reason to feel that way, r224. We're living in an Orwellian age now, with the social media censure the equivalent of the Goldstein hate rallies in 1984. It's terrifying.

"He just pulled in a load of skipjack, and they don't pay as much for skipjack as they do for albacore."

Thanks for clarifying that, r227. I NEVER understood what Young was saying at that moment, but I always swore I heard something about "albacore."

One of my favorite films of all time. I didn't realize until my second viewing that Gittes/Nicholson is in every scene in the film. It's all told from his prospective. I'm watching it again tonight.

Seems to me the ice queen melted down completely in the sister/daughter scene. So touching when she says of Catherine, "Now I want to be with her, I want to take care of her." She's so raw and vulnerable.

It’s interesting, I actually think the Gittes is the femme fatale in the film and Evelyn is the protagonist, as he leads her to her downfall.

What are our theories about the relationship of Hollis and Kathryn? Are there any real hints in the movie? Was he a father figure to her? What kind of strange upbringing arrangement did she have? She seemed far too innocent to have been in any kind of untoward relationship with him. Did she see Evelyn on a regular basis? What did she know? Was she developmentally disabled in some way? So many questions!

[quote]r234 What are our theories about the relationship of Hollis and Kathryn?

Have they ever even met, until the end?

I think Evelyn is being genuine when she says Hollis was a most kind and caring man and put up with the hell of her emotional instability. I think he loved Evelyn deeply, knew about her incestuous relationship with Noah, was instrumental in reuniting mother and daughter after years of separation and had every intention of going forward as a family and stepfather to Kathryn.

[quote] Gittes is the femme fatale in the film and Evelyn is the protagonist, as he leads her to her downfall.

That's how I felt. Gittes is handsome, charming and seductive but can't get close to anyone. He meets Evelyn, there's a possibility of love but his mistrust of people immediately gives way to rash judgements. He calls his detective friend of her whereabouts before she has a chance to escape. In the end, when she gets killed, he's stunned and broken.

Whenever one of those SJW's gives me shit for loving Chinatown, a Polanski movie, I always shoot back "He made it before he raped that girl" and that always satisfies them because that's how shallow they are.

LOVE CHINATOWN. It is truly a masterpiece.

I love Fonda but she would have been all wrong for Evelyn. Faye is mesmerizing.

The only good thing about The Two Jakes is Faye's voice over reading a letter Evelyn had written to Jake after the slapping scene and before the fatal shooting.

In some way I think The Two Jakes was Towne's attempt to wrest control of Chinatown back from Polanski. Utterly doomed, of course. It's like making a sequel to Casablanca.

"I think Evelyn is being genuine when she says Hollis was a most kind and caring man and put up with the hell of her emotional instability."

That's not what she said. He put up a lot from her, which I took to mean her running around and drinking. I think he loved her as a daughter, that's it.

Running around and drinking would be part of the emotional instability. And she did specifically say "most kind and decent man I ever knew," something like that.

If Evelyn and Hollis were planning to set up a sort of family unit for Catherine, whether publicly or privately, that would certainly have been something for old Noah Cross to go after and disrupt.

I liked the character of Khan. Presumably he knew a lot, and was very protective. Only so much he could do, though. What was the Chinese (?) phrase Jake said to him while pushing through the door?

My bad, I've been referring to the butler as Khan, I looked at the screenplay (which is online in its entirety) and it seems to be Kyo. Not specified at IMDB.

Anyway, in the screenplay, during the sister/daughter scene, there is some additional dialogue in which Evelyn says Noah had a breakdown after the baby was born.

[quote]In some way I think The Two Jakes was Towne's attempt to wrest control of Chinatown back from Polanski. Utterly doomed, of course. It's like making a sequel to Casablanca.

Chinatown was written as the first part of an intended trilogy. The Two Jakes flopped so badly that financing dried up for the third film.

R241, you must lead a very dull life if you think running around and drinking is indicative of instability.

Yes, it certainly can be, r244. It's clear that the neurotic Evelyn is traumatized by and cathected to her incestuous past. Except for the tolerant Hollis and, later, Jake, she has trust issues with men and is unable to sustain relationships for very long, as she admits, suggesting she may suffer from any number of emotional/sexual disorders, perhaps even nymphomania.

Thanks for the new word r245.

Don't know how I will ever use it, but I am instantly cathected to it.

Me thinks you over analyze, R245.

I don’t think R245 is “over analyzing.” We’re taking a deep dive into a great movie we like. The point is the depths Robert Towne was able to convey by Evelyn’s words, such as “I don’t see anyone for very long. It’s difficult for me.”

Someone explain where the girl was before her husband was killed. I don’t understand the chain of events. Why weren’t they all already miles away from Noah?

What "girl"?

R53, I saw Blade Runner on 4k recently. It was the first time in 10 years that I've seen it. I think it's pretty overrated. A good movie, not great. The story is pretty thin and the characters are dull. But the setting and visuals are incredible. Ridley Scott's only great movie is Alien.

Did anyone else here love Bitter Moon? Very wild and shocking movie. I would say it is probably Polanski's best movie that came after the 70s.

[quote]Chinatown was written as the first part of an intended trilogy. The Two Jakes flopped so badly that financing dried up for the third film.

I did not know this, R243. Do you know what was supposed to happen in part 3?

[quote]It's all told from his prospective.

Oh, dear.

R252 I loved Bitter Moon too: so entertaining and over-the-top funny. I always liked Peter Coyote, but this is by far the best role I've seen him in, and Hugh Grant's standard performance is up-ended by being placed in a kinky lamb-lost-in-the-woods context. And Emmanuelle Seigner is a saucy hoot.

Now I will have to see Bitter Moon.

R255, yes, it is excellent, seriously overlooked and extremely underrated. One of the craziest movies I've ever seen. All the performances are very good. I was actually sad by the end of it.

R243 I wish there was a script out there or more plans revealing what the third film would have been about beyond "Gittes vs. Gittes, about the third finite resource—land—in Los Angeles, circa 1968," and that it would feature Gittes getting divorced from his wife.

Despite The Two Jakes being a poor film, I'm still kind of curious about what could have been.

You got a problem R258

R259

Is the only reason Noah killed Hollis because he opposed the dam, or is there more to it than that?

Hollis discovered that the city was dumping water into the ocean to perpetuate the drought and lower the land prices in the Valley which Cross was buying up.

Plus I'm sure Hollis and Evelyn were aware Cross had nefarious intentions about Kathryn, which is why she was placed in a safe house. I bet that's what the argument outside the Pig 'N Whistle was about.

R262 Thank you for that succinct explanation. I haven't heard it put quite so neatly.

Do we just assume that Noah got away with it and never faced any charges?

Yes, R265. Like Trump.

R266 Well, he and Trump certainly both had similar viewpoints on their daughters.

I remember being fascinated by this movie when it first appeared but I have little inclination see it again.

I still appreciate Polanski's film-making technique. But Nicholson and Huston seem like ugly people in real life and Dunaway has turned into camp.

"But Nicholson and Huston seem like ugly people in real life and Dunaway has turned into camp."

Sez you, and who cares? It has absolutely nothing to do with the masterful film they created.

Ugly people (in real life) playing ugly characters (on screen) deter people (like me) from handing over their money twice.

Do you always pass judgment on people on the basis of rumor, hearsay and received opinion?

I wonder what Polanski would have done with The Two Jakes, perhaps it would have turned out another masterpiece like Chinatown. I wish they would consider filming the 3rd part of the trilogy, Gittes vs Gittes.

So few sequels turn into a masterpiece; they often just cheapen the legacy of the original. I personally didn't love Godfather Part II, but most did. Star Wars pulled it off because their was plenty of story left to tell and let's face it - it was a sci fi film. The Empire Strikes Back managed to be better than the original, but by the Return of the Jedi - the story had become campy and derailed. Polanski was wise to avoid The Two Jakes (I know that he was hiding out in Europe and I doubt that he was even offered it). I just prefer to pretend that the film never happened as I firmly believe that Chinatown is the greatest film of all time.

Sigh, I wish people would consider that there's more to life than Donald Trump. Please, can we maybe ponder this possibility?

Anyway. My dream is to go see "Chinatown" in a movie theater, ideally Grauman's Chinese here in LA. When it first came out, I was too young to get in to see it, and in those days, the age cutoff was somewhat enforced.

Maybe Fathom Events will do some kind of anniversary screening like they've done with other classics in the past.

I wouldn't be surprised if Hollywood rebooted Chinatown.

Oh god please no R276, lol. Starring Ryan Gosling and Jennifer Lawrence! VOM

For those asking about the third part of the proposed trilogy, Wikipedia fairly well sums it up:

"Chinatown is set in 1937 and portrays the manipulation of a critical municipal resource—water—by a cadre of shadowy oligarchs. It was the first part of Towne's planned trilogy about the character J.J. Gittes, the foibles of the Los Angeles power structure, and the subjugation of public good by private greed.[9] The second part, The Two Jakes, has Gittes caught up in another grab for a natural resource—oil—in the 1940s. It was directed by Jack Nicholson and released in 1990, but the second film's commercial and critical failure scuttled plans to make Gittes vs. Gittes,[10] about the third finite resource—land—in Los Angeles, circa 1968.[9]"

A subplot would have involved Gittes' divorce, thus the title "Gittes vs. Gittes."

Re: R265 and R266, no-one could see this great film again without the final lines having special impact.

'Forget it Jake - it's Chinatown' is a brutal acknowledgement that deeply corrupt wealth and power will Get Away With It, because they can.

That's been Trump's MO always. If he'd ever had the patience to sit through the film, he'd identify totally with Noah Cross: find him tremendous, and think the last lines a happy ending.

The wonder is that there are many Jake Gittes out there now who will not Forget It. And how Trump hates his narrative being ruined beyond that final reel.

"Forget it Jake - it's Chinatown'"

Trumpian parallels aside, it's also a metaphor for a larger abstraction, a moral "black hole," if you will, a void where no one goes what's going on and the rules don't apply. To my mind, given Polanski's life experience, it can't help but resonate with the Holocaust.

I watched it again accompanied by this insightful and entertaining commentary.

Can't wait to watch the bluray on my 4k tv!

Wow thanks R281

How is the name 'China-Town' relevant?

There aren't any Chinamen in this movie, are there?

Chinatown is a section of LA where Jake has history of some type before the start of the movie. .

I would like to know what happened in Chinatown to Jake. Whatever happened there made him leave the police force. Maybe they should make a prequel.

Chinatown is symbolic to Jake. Something bad happened there that involved a woman he was involved with and led to him leaving the force. That’s all we’re meant to know.

For those visiting L.A., these are the filming locations. I was in Chinatown there late one evening a couple of years ago, and thought of the last scene.

Just bought the Blu-ray thanks to this fabulous thread.

Comes with a nice slip cover of Nicholson and a white background (wish Faye was on it, though).

I just took a long walk here in Los Angeles, listening to that Robert Towne commentary track. So interesting. Thanks to the person who posted it. I kept thinking of water and power.

I bought the poster thanks to this thread!

Speaking of a prequel, not that I really want to go there, but one about Noah Cross and his ruthless rise could be interesting. Starring?

[quote]Speaking of a prequel, not that I really want to go there, but one about Noah Cross and his ruthless rise could be interesting. Starring?

Don't even think about it. Call Jack Huston, John's grandson and the best thing about Boardwalk Empire, and be done with it. He'd be great in it.

R282 “Oh my, yes.”

R292 “Oh my, yes.”

^sorry, my brilliant double entendre was meant for R292

^and double it (inadvertently) was.

Which brings to mind something in Robert Towne’s discussion on the YouTube link above. It was noted this running theme of pairs of things, one of them lost or damaged. Headlights, eyeglasses, Evelyn’s eyes, Florsheim shoes, and even the sister/daughter duo and the girl herself. Oddly enough, Towne said he wasn’t aware of it until later, and didn’t think Polanski was either.

R296 Intriguing

I read an interesting trivia tidbit about Chinatown. Supposedly Polanski and Nicholson got into a heated fight on set which culminated in Polanski smashing Jack's portable TV set. I want to know what the fight was about! It's striking that there was so much tension on the set (Polanski and Faye Dunaway also fought ) but the movie turned out such a masterpiece.

I think they should do a mini-series on the water wars in Los Angeles history. Without that water system, LA wouldn't exist today. William Mulholland was the chief engineer and the character Mulray or Cross is based on. He got that going through sheer will and deceit.

That’s the thing about this movie. It’s about history - big, important, consequential events, as well as the dark side of humanity. (Come at me, hyperbole troll!)

R298 I suspect Polanski would have enjoyed tension on the set on this edgy movie.

Hitchcock told the staff on 'Rebecca' to be cold towards young Joan.

[quote]I think they should do a mini-series on the water wars in Los Angeles history.

A big chunk of the book and PBS documentary "Cadillac Desert" is about that. The city of Los Angeles owns more than 200,000 acres in the Owens Valley, hundreds of miles to the north, for the water rights. This has basically turned the Owens Valley from a rich agricultural area 100 years ago into a desert today. There have been court battles in the meantime, over things such as the water level and salinity in Mono Lake and dust blowing off of the now-almost-dry Owens Lake. But the situation is basically the same. The Owens Valley essentially died so that Los Angeles could grow.

Wonder how the thugs knew Jake was at the Mar Vista Rest Home?

[quote]Polanski smashing Jack's portable TV set. I want to know what the fight was about!

Jack wanted to watch the TV version of "Helter Skelter," and Polanski wasn't having it.

"Wonder how the thugs knew Jake was at the Mar Vista Rest Home?"

The spokesman who greets Jake and Evelyn is obviously on to them once they start questioning the ladies and probably informs the henchmen. That said, Polanski et al get there in a very, very short time, which leads me to wonder whether Gittes was being followed. No way could they all have communicated with each other with such quick results otherwise.

I love the Mar Vista guy's line reading, "Someone wantsa TALK with you."

R304 Actually, Nicholson wanted to watch the Lakers/Knicks games and Polanski wasn't having it.

According to the bio at the link, he and Polanski had a blow-out fight on the last day of shooting because between takes Nicholson would go to his dressing room to watch basketball on a portable T.V. Polanski became infuriated and stormed into the dressing room and threw out the T.V. (supposedly the game had gone into overtime). They made up soon after.

Thanks for the link R307. I never realized that Jack had just started dating Anjelica when he did the scenes with her Father, I bet that really dud bring a whole new dimension to those scenes ("Are you sleeping with her?")

I always wondered what happened to the sister/daughter Katherine Cross (the crummy Chinatown sequel "The Two Jakes", which featured the character, doesn't count). The poor girl seemed mentally disturbed (Well, I guess so! She was the offspring of a father and daughter) even before her mother is gunned down in front of her. And then she's dragged away by a grotesque old man who she's never seen before who claims to be her grandfather. What happened next? Did Noah Cross take her to wherever he lived to keep her there and maintain possession of her? Was he able to keep his hands off her sexually? Considering how disturbed she already was I always figured she ended up in an insane asylum. And I never understood why Evelyn wanted to be the one to "take care of" her illicit offspring. I would think that every time she looked at her incest baby she would be reminded of how she got her. If I were her I would have adopted her out, but made sure that Noah Cross would not have been able to find her. Actually, the whole experience of sex with her father and having a baby by him seemed to have made Evelyn pretty unstable herself. Maybe that's why she decided to keep and raise her sister/daughter.

Evelyn had a good heart, and a maternal instinct.

"Evelyn had a good heart, and a maternal instinct."

Actually, I just got the impression she was kind of cuckoo.

Robert Towne, who created Chinatown and its characters, also wrote "The Two Jakes," so his version of what happened to Katherine Mulwray should be accepted rather than discounted.

Seen from this remove, "The Two Jakes" is not a bad film. It's just not a masterpiece like "Chinatown" was, which was disappointing when it came out. It was originally supposed to be made in 1984-85. Nicholson, of course, and Kelly McGillis was going to play Kitty. Robert Evans himself was going to play the second Jake (that Harvey Keitel finally played). I think it was Evans' participation as an actor that led to the picture falling apart at the time.

I think Evelyn was a mess and yet I think she was still able to compose herself the best she could considering her circumstances. She loved her daughter despite the shame.

R34 John Huston was NOT an actor. He was an amateur play actor at best

He made some very interesting movies in the early days. But he became a stereotypical macho drunk and macho wannabe big-game hunter. He became lazy-Irish-drunk and made some stinkers towards the end (Casino Royale, Wise Blood, and The Dead).

He was a monster to Monty Clift filming 'Freud' and he made Brando into a repellant homosexual freak in 'Reflections in a Golden Eye'.

R306 Yeah, ha ha, he’s all classy up to that point.

Why was the Mulholland activity a scandal IRL?

When we were watching " The Lady From Shanghai" in film class, the professor stated that many filmmakers looked at the Chinatown section of big cities as places of great mystery, not understood by Westerners. The mysterious "Orientals" who inhabited the place were true foreigners, with different customs and behaviors. To the Western eye, it was next to impossible to determine who was good and who was evil. So, they used Chinatown as a metaphor for mysterious ambiguity. Gittes had a previous experience there and, not being the sharpest of detectives, arrived at erroneous conclusions throughout about who was telling the truth and who was lying in a desperate search for redemption. All came to an end, fittingly in Chinatown. Evil won out and Chinatown remained a place of dark confusion.

R317 Very interesting take

Great post R317.

R314 Wise Blood rules. Brad Dourif and Amy Wright ruled.

Agree R321 - I rewatched that a few years ago & thought it was excellent. Huston had a tendency to bite off more than he could chew with literary adaptations, but sometimes it worked.

Also - has any other filmmaker even really tried to capture O'Connor's odd tone/universe? It was a pretty admirable attempt.

A dynamic about the film I really like is that the male lead is - occasionally - somewhat intimidated by the leading lady.

Jack Nicholson's persona is often very devil-may-care or just high handed with his femake stars (like in CARNAL KNOWLEDGE.) They could come, go, or stick around and he'd still be fine. But the way he's drawn to Dunaway yet at times a little bashful with her (I don't know quite how to describe it) brings so much more depth and vulnerability to the performance.

Evelyn outclasses Gittes, and it's touching that he keeps moving forward, anyway.

They come across as a couple that could actually be equals, which isn't something you see a lot of in movies.

R323 Yes, the casting is perfect. Everything about Chinatown came together beautifully.

I mean, you don't usually see Jack Nicholson give someone a look like this onscreen - -

It's very special.

So I watched it again yesterday. Was struck by- well, many things, but especially the afterglow scene, where at one point Jake asks Evelyn some question and she turns away dreamily, her face becoming a mask of mystery. For a moment she looks almost (dare I say it) Chinese.

This is the shot ^

I love the chemistry between Jack and Faye. You know they won't end up with each other but you don't know how it will end - and how tragically.

Like r324 said, they come across as equals and there is a sense each can see something in the other - their loneliness, their pain, their need for affection.

They have the right amount of romantic and sexual chemistry and Towne and Polanski wisely did not make their romantic relationship a big focus of the film but there is a bond between them that gives the ending an extra layer of tragedy.

Nicholson was ALMOST good looking back in those days until the pot and pot-belly took over.

I just recently finally saw the mid nineties film Mulholland Falls. It was obviously going for the same atmosphere and mise en scène as Chinatown but was lacking despite a great physical production as well a a good cast (Nick Nolte, Melanie Griffith, Chaz Palminteri, etc.) An almost but not quite there.

Has anyone seen David Lynch's Mulholland Drive? I haven't but have gathered it also owes a debt to Chinatown.

Mullholland Drive is a very different film although an excellent in its own right. It is possibly Lynch's pinnacle from a film perspective. IMO, there are next to no parallels (besides the city itself and the somber mood) between the two movies. Chinatown is in most critics handful of best films ever made, while Mullholland Drive is very respected - but not to the same degree. I highly recommend it; definitely watch it soon!

I love the movie threads on DL. This is one of my favorites. I was a youngster when I saw Chinatown and was shocked by the incest story. Chinatown was a very adult movie, with complex themes and character motives. Truly a masterpiece.

The ending of the movie when Noah puts his hand over the girls face is creepy. He's on one level trying to stop her looking at the carnage but also it's a gesture of control. Also his seeming mock horror at his daughters death is very disturbing.

Could a bullet from a handgun really have hit Evelyn at that distance though??

No. Not from a revolver.

But oh well.

Because of you guys, I watched it Friday. Riveting. Hard watching Nicholson. Even in his youth he is revolting. However, Dunaway's bone structure is otherwordly. Skin so tight. Not sure if she DNA tested but there's something exotic in there. African/Native American? Something! It's a type of beauty you only find on the N American continent. Those blue almond eyes. The cheekbones. Poreless skin. Genetic jackpot.

R327, yes. A China doll. That's why I say there's something else going on in there. This look is common in NC but especially common in Northern Quebec. They're known as the Copper Eskimo or Blond Eskimo. Locals in and around Labrador City look like Dunaway's extended family. It's such a special beauty. The light colored almond eye combined with the cheekbones is of another world.

She doesn't bring it up publicly, because it wasn't fashionable when she was building a career, but she's at least part Polish.

Was curious so checked this site. Can't be bothered to go looking but the French Huguenot grandfather arrived in the late 1600s. When one's ancestors have been here for centuries then anything is possible.

Bet her family tree on some site gives us a hint into where the mix comes in.

R339, is Polish mentioned in R340? Not getting Polish but due to human migrations some phenotypes worlds apart resemble others. I originally hail from NE Canada so I'm a mix of all of those types you'd find up there. When worked & lived in Manhattan and I'd light up a smoke so often a Russian would ask to bum a cigarette on the street. Or they'd ask me for directions. Shocked when didn't understand them. It would throw deli owners for a loop when ordering coffee & cigarettes. Anyone would expect an accent to be flowing. When I was 4 I looked like typical Polish boy. It all comes from distant Mongolian bloodlines be it Russia, Canada, Eastern Europe or Scandinavia. People really got around.

Didn't read this but it popped up in ethniceleb search. So I'm not the only one. I guess whoever wrote this thread must also be black & not aware of our (Americans) common NA ancestors. Comes off as one of our LSA "genealogists". 😅

Lauren Hutton (model) is actually part black. When the European mix is Northern Europe or Scandinavian mixed with AA, it's a crap shoot. Probably one of the most beautiful, distinct mixes on the planet. Goes so well together. Throw in a little NA and you've got your beautiful American. The Brits envy us something fierce. And they should.

R341 my dad’s family is Ukrainian. His father was your classic blue-eyes, blond hair, tanned, big-featured Ukrainian, and his mother was the also equally classic dark haired, almond-shaped eyed, high cheekboned, olive-skinned Ukrainian.

My father did the National Geographic genome test and, and her people had roots in the landlocked, central Asian -istans, Armenia and the Levant, many hundreds of years ago.

Shailene Woodley is also part black through a few routes via her mother. Though she can look either very chic or very goofy, she’s got some fine bone structure.

Nicholson was at the height of his beauty in the early-to-mid 70s. CHINATOWN, FIVE EASY PIECES, CARNAL KNOWLEDGE...He's beautiful and sexy as hell.

R328 I wonder if Polanski and the cinematographer knew what they were doing with Faye’s “Chinese” look, or if they just saw it as it happened or in the rushes and went, holy shit. There is a lot of magic in this film, probably some of it unintentional.

So.... .the ending doesn't work then? If it's unlikely she would have been hit by that bullet it's a big flaw in the movie.

Why are American people so obsessed with race and ethnicity? Faye looks white to me. Who gives a shit where her ancestors came from? I don't even care about mine.

Sigh

If there's a missing piece of the puzzle it's Evelyn's relationship with her husband Hollis. Was that a healthy relationship, or, given the age difference and the fact that he was Noah's friend and probably had at least a clue about what was happening, was it creepy too? I mean, she didn't seem to get too worked up about it when he turned up dead, and the scene with the daughter where she's twirling around showing off her new dress on the patio while Jake's taking photos is a little off--no wonder Jake thought he had the proof he was looking for.

I realize Hitchock would say he's just the MacGuffin, the plot device to get the story going, but he's never seemed quite right to me.

Don't know anything about guns but I'm pretty sure the bullet could reach the car. I don't think the police officer aimed for her eye and made it--now yeah, that seems far fetched. He was shooting in the direction of the car and one of shots happened to hit Evelyn. I don't think he called bank on that one. The bigger question is why is he shooting into speeding car and chance hitting a child. Or innocent bystanders. But it's the 19030's and it's Chinatown so maybe it's realistic LAPD did not give a damn about gun protocol.

Isn't this a moovee?

Who the fuck gives a shit if the bullet could hit a moving car?

[quote] Nicholson was at the height of his beauty in the early-to-mid 70s. CHINATOWN, FIVE EASY PIECES, CARNAL KNOWLEDGE...He's beautiful and sexy as hell.

Agree, he is sexy as hell in Chinatown (esp when he has his hat on, his balding takes away some of his beauty). He is a very good-looking man under all that male bawdiness.

[quote]male bawdiness

Pics please.

Faye has always looked mixed to me. Not sure what mix, but mixed with something. Here's a pic from her younger, modeling days, before she bleached her hair.

Before all the plastic surgery, her face had a chameleon like quality that could make her look very different depending on the lighting, angle, hair and makeup. I mean, she definitely looks white in "Bonnie and Clyde," but as people have noted, her face has an Asiatic qualities to it in "Chinatown." I really don't know what the hell possessed her to mess with her it so much in later life. Yeah, I get that she incurred a lot of damage from smoking and drinking and drugs, but even as late as when she did "Barfly," she was still beautiful. Worn about the edges, perhaps, but beautiful nevertheless.

[quote]r343 Lauren Hutton (model)

EXCUSE me, but it's Lauren Hutton [italic] (actress) [/italic]

!!

R349

You're not a movie star. We don't "give a sh*t" where your ancestors came from.

Dunaway has a flat face. Asiatic.

Flat?

Is it?

Jack Nicholson’s charisma and sex appeal were pretty much unparalleled. And he was a generous lover. Until the secret of his birth was uncovered by a journalist, he was the kind of man who genuinely loved women. Obviously, he didn’t trust anyone after that.

But even Meryl Streep wanted to bang him - and did. She took movies to hook up with him on set.

"the scene with the daughter where she's twirling around showing off her new dress on the patio while Jake's taking photos is a little off"

No it isn't, not in the least. It's what any young girl of a certain age would do. Of course we don't know the context at that point in the movie so every bit of behavior is up for grabs.

"I've been around the world in a plane, I've settled revolutions in Spain...and the North pole I have charted still I can't get started with you" what part if the movie does this song play?

R362, when I re-watched the movie the other day, I noticed for the first time that Catherine is asking Hollis if her dress is "bonita," to which he replies "may bonita." Suggests that Catherine has maybe been hidden away in Mexico, probably by Hollis on Evelyn's behalf. Maybe Hollis has brought her up to LA at the request of Evelyn, who now wants to "take care of her." Old Noah caught wind of this, and hence set out to hire Jake to "find the girl" and also ruin Hollis. Quite a diabolical scheme. After that, he had to get Hollis completely out of the way.

R363, it's early in the movie, when Jake is spying on Hollis at the beach. It's "I Can't Get Started" by Bunny Berringer. Wonderful song, my parents used to play it when I was growing up.

Ugh - "MUY bonita," not "may bonita." Very pretty.

R364, excellent synopsis.

^you see, blocked freak, THIS is how you post!

I always assumed that the daughter stayed in Mexico, but R364 was a great sleuth to catch that evidence. Faye was an absolutely breathtaking beauty during her prime years - almost unparalleled in Hollywood really. In Chinatown, she was at her pinnacle. I also loved her look in The Thomas Crown Affair:

R367 One of my pet peeves is how often Faye's performance in Mommie Dearest is brought up, at the expense of recognizing her larger body of work and amazing performances in Chinatown and Bonnie and Clyde. So glad to see a discussion of Faye's talent.

Isn’t "I Can’t Get Started" also in the Brown Derby scene? While Evelyn and Jake are talking over drinks, there's a piano playing very slowly and wistfully in the background, and the song seems to reflect Jake's inability to make any headway with Evelyn.

No R369, that’s “The Way You Look Tonight”

You beat me to it, r370.

Here’s another little thing I caught re-watching it the other day. When Hollis is down on the beach waiting for the water, he forlornly picks up a starfish. Later on, when Jake fetches Noah’s bifocals out of the little pond, we see them lying next to a starfish.

I’m a little unclear about timing, but could be that Hollis had just gotten home and was placing the starfish in the pond when the old fuck pushed him from behind and held him down (of course losing his glasses in the struggle).

Amazing attention to detail R372! I have seen the movie probably 15 times and might just watch it again tonight if I have time. The salt water pond was such an opulent thing to have in one's backyard (at least I thought so when I first saw the film). It was just one of the 1000's of fascinating details included within this story.

For this 18 year-old (in 1974), the love/bedroom scene was the height of sophistication and adult behavior. Back then I would even light up a post-coital cigarette in emulation of Jack/Jake and to recreate the moment with my very own blonde.

I 100% agree with r333. This thread is a reminder why I enjoy Datalounge. I started visiting DL around the time when the IMDB forums folded. I miss them, but a thread like this is just as good, probably even better. I love reading the posts from those who saw the film in cinemas in '74, and those from L.A. who can comment on the themes of land and water in the film, which, I admit, have somewhat confused me. And only DLers could notice the small details.

And I agree with r368. I refuse to look at Faye as a joke. She is a great actress, and even after Mommie Dearest, she gave some of her strongest performances: Barfly, Cold Sassy Tree, The Handmaid's Tale, and Gia. But Chinatown is definitely Faye at her absolute best.

Jack Nicholson's son, Ray does not look like him at all except for the smile. Ray looks like a baby he had with Leo DiCaprio.

Nicholson had so much charisma as a young actor.

[quote]r356 Here's a pic from her younger, modeling days, before she bleached her hair.

I say this with love, but while it IS claimed in a few minor sources that Dunaway worked as a model, as far as I know, she never did. That pic is from Vogue, 1973.

She was fast tracked as a legit stage actress right away (arriving in NYC as a college grad already signed for a Broadway play, A MAN FOR ALL SEASONS) and I imagine she had no interest in modeling. She also had no particular affinity for fashion when young, and costume designer Theadora Van Runkle said she showed up for her first BONNIE AND CLYDE fitting in an awful, avocado green dress.

This television commercial Dunaway did while still relatively unknown is probably the closest she came to being an anonymous model:

Only Roman Polanski could have made this. His uncomplicated cynicism and worldview pervades it.

I wouldn't have recognized Fay Dunaway in that commercial.

I remember watching an old horror movie when I was a kid and really crushing on the actor who played the lead in the film. Even though the movie was kind of stupid and forgettable, this actor made it more interesting. He had such a sexual aura about him. I forgot about the film until 20 years later, I learned that it was Jack Nicholson.

"His uncomplicated cynicism and worldview pervades it."

Polish, you know.

By the way, I really enjoyed reading Dunaway's auto-bio/memoir and recommend it.

When Jake asks Noah if he’s worth 10 million, I always like the way Noah unhesitatingly responds “Oh my, yes,” amused by such a paltry number, which would’ve been close to 200 million back then.

I guess the equivalent today would be someone asking a tech oligarch, are you worth 1 billion? “Oh, for sure.”

Mulholland's work was controversial 100 years ago and still is now, for some people, as it basically killed the Owens Valley just so Los Angeles coukd have water. Much like SanFrancisco killed the formerly beautiful Hetch Hetchy Valley (almost a twin of Yosemite Valley) just so they could have a water supply.

There's a line in the film that still has resonance today, in our climate of greed and unrestrained capitalism. Jake asks Noah something to the effect of "Why are you doing this? What more do you need? What could you buy that you can't already afford? ".

" The future, Mr. Gittes, the future."

Maybe they should “remake” (not really, just loosely inspired maybe) Chinatown as a modern-day mystery set in San Francisco. The villain could be like an evil Steve Jobs or Zuckerberg type, harvesting all our info for “the future.”

R386 I think they released a film like that a few years ago. It's name escapes me but it starred Tom Hanks and Emma Watson.

That was The Circle, R387. Good memory.

[quote]By the way, I really enjoyed reading Dunaway's auto-bio/memoir and recommend it.

I agree: she's a good writer and her love of acting shines through. She's very lavish in her praise for Nicholson, Beatty, and other colleagues she respects.

In an appearance on The Tonight Show Bette Davis was asked by Johnny Carson what it was like working with Lillian Gish. Davis that she was "a lovely person" and the audience started giggling. I guess, knowing her reputation for cattiness, they thought she was being sarcastic but she wasn't. Then Carson asked if there was anyone she didn't like working with and she said "Faye Dunaway." And added that anyone "who sits in this chair would say the same thing." She didn't go into detail except to say that Dunaway was "uncooperative."

So, nu, I heard Faye Dunaway’s a Mexican but she doesn’t want anyone to know it. I read it in the Star.

r389 The robe she's wearing on the cover of her book (and in the famous Morning After portrait, shot by husband Terryu O'Neill) is Evelyn's robe from CHINATOWN, replaced with her own monogram.

Wow, that robe would be a great movie-lover's auction item.

[quote]r391 So, nu, I heard Faye Dunaway’s a Mexican but she doesn’t want anyone to know it. I read it in the Star.

Mu'menyu, you're thinking of her gevirtsik lookalike. Barbara Luna.

R390, that's not true, she said she would come to the set drunk.

I've heard stories that Dunaway was difficult to work with. Is this why Nicholson and Beatty never hooked up with her? They hooked up with anyone with a vagina.

From what I have researched, Faye was a perfectionist and very opinionated when it came the the films that she starred in during her early career. While often off-putting, I think that her dedication to an excellent product obviously led to great final products. That said, by the Mommie Dearest era, she was obviously quite the diva as well.

R397, honestly, I don't think Faye would want to hookup with either of them. They don't seem her type. R398, Roman Polanski descxribed her as a pain in the ass but I think he did respect her as an actress.

Back in the 1970s, Davis and Dunaway co-starred in a major TV movie about Aimee Semple McPherson. Dunaway was Sister Aimee and Davis played her mother. Davis had been looking forward to working with her; she thought Dunaway was the most interesting of all the young Hollywood actresses. Dunaway, however, turned out to be a nightmare to work with -- constantly late, sometimes drunk, often didn't know her lines, etc. For an old pro with a well known work ethic, this was all inexcusable to Davis and she developed a real enmity towards Dunaway. The stories of their behavior on set after Davis gave an interview during filming and made some acid comments about her costar are legendary.

I remember during Faye's popularity in the 70s, she would follow the J Geils Band and ended up marrying the singer. People at the time thought she could do better.

R401, that's it. Faye definitely seems like the type of woman to get married to someone beneath her. I cannot imagine her actually marrying an A-list actor more prominent/famous than her. I also think a lot of men on her level would actually find her difficult and intimidating.

It always seem like such a strange match to me at the time, the ultimate glamorous movie diva with some rocker guy. Imagine Faye backstage or on the tour bus in that “Almost Famous” era.

Read her book. She really loved Peter Wolf. She also dated Lenny Bruce. She was always into creative types, and couldn't have cared less about their wealth or hierarchy in the celebrity circus.

Nicholson and Beatty had a reputation as womanizers, today we would categorize them as sex addicts, especially Beatty. A smart woman would have stayed away.

So, what was Faye's excuse?

In the scene where Gittes first goes to the Mulwray house, and Evelyn greets him in her riding outfit, somewhat sweaty, and he makes a comment that she must have been riding for a while and she seems to make a subtle point of telling him she was "riding bareback." I always found that very suggestive.

Yeah R407, and she rode her father bareback too...

Another one for the wordplay seekers. When Jack's operative shows him the photos of Hollis and Noah arguing, he says he was only able to decipher one word above the roaring traffic: "apple core."

"Apple core?" Jack asks.

A moment of foreshadowing: When Evelyn and Jack are parked in her car at the sister-daughter's safe house, just before Evelyn tells him the half-truth ("she's my sister"), she lowers her head to the steering wheel and accidentally honks the horn.

Later in the film, when she's shot in Chinatown while driving away, the car stops and we hear the horn stick, and it doesn't stop until her head is pulled off it.

I think after winning her Oscar for Network, Faye really didn't quite know what to do. I think she even addressed this in her book. She got the lead in The Eyes of Laura Mars which is campy fun but she really needed something a little more substantial especially after Network. Then she got thankless roles in The Champ and The First Deadly Sin. And then, of course, Mommie Dearest. I guess she had reached a pinnacle in her career winning the Oscar. Did the ambition lessen? Or the scripts offered to her were of low quality?

More wordplay and foreshadowing: When Lt. Escobar makes a joke about Jake lighting a cigarette and being careful not to "burn himself."

Detectives and P.I.s use the term "burned" when the people they're investigating catch on to them and/or come after them.

R407 made me think of horse-riding flirt-talk between Bogart and Bacall in 'The Big Sleep.' In fact the whole scene in the bar foreshadows 'Chinatown.' Bacall paying off Bogart over-generously to shut the case down - and Bogart knowing it's too cut and dried.

Naturally the greatest modern film noir would have been steeped in allusions to its inspirations. Great fun to tease them out - like a detective!

"You have something in your eye."

" Yeah, a bullet."

Oh shit, R410, you're absolutely right! As someone said, so many little pieces to tease out!

In the Robert Towne/David Fincher commentary video posted upthread, Fincher asks Towne if the accidental honk was intentional and Towne didn't seem to know.

To be honest, that commentary video didn't have enough input from Towne. Not sure if that was because he didn't want to reveal too much, or if Fincher was too chatty, going on about things HE liked in the movie (some of his observations were slightly off, I thought).

Forget it, DL. It's Chinatown.

It's been more than 25 years since I have seen the movie...please explain "apple core"?

"she lowers her head to the steering wheel and accidentally honks the horn."

And that moment has always felt a little unmotivated and calculated to me.

"please explain "apple core"?"

"Apple core" is a misunderstanding for "albacore," the name of the social club, patronized (or owned?) by Noah Cross. It's part of the wordplay of fish/water imagery and red herrings (!!!) that permeate the movie.

And this I got from the commentary video, the old lady at the Marvista rest home is making an albacore quilt – in other words putting the pieces together as Jake is doing also.

Gorgeous one sheet and ad campaign too.

I just bought that poster!

I want to get one of these....

Wow, that’s cool. I’d almost be tempted were it not for my hatred of what Noah Cross represents.

I wouldn’t mind one that said, “I don’t get tough with anyone Mr. Gittes ~ my lawyer does.” Or, “To tell you the truth, I lied a little.“ Or simply “Forget it Jake, it’s Chinatown.”

They do!

Or if you prefer a different font...

[quote]I just bought that poster!

One sheet Dear, it's called a one sheet. If you are going to own it, at least know what it's called.

Further to R418 and 'apple core': Jake on making a breakthrough says, 'How d'you like them apples?'

The barber's vulgar joke about "fucking like a Chinaman" has "Chinatown" all over it.

And when Jake repeats the joke to his operatives, Evelyn is standing behind him, overhearing it.

I love when he turns around to see the cool yet withering look she's giving him, and he withers! The looks on everyone's faces in that scene make me laugh every time!

R426 No need to get tough with me, Mrs. Mulwray.

Polanski's Polish cynicism is similar to Wilder's Austrian cynicism.

Bitter Moon has just been added to Kanopy, the public library's free streaming service.

Polanski's twisted psyche at full throttle!

Thank you SO much for that heads-up, r431!!

It is kind of stupid that Jake tries to trap Cross at the end and not consider Cross will have a gun-wielding thug alongside him.

Jane vs. Faye vs. Jill vs. Liv vs. Ali.

For CHINATOWN fans, I recommend Sam Wasson's new book about it, it's magnificent. Wasson is the author of the great Fosse biography that was the basis for the meh miniseries.

This movie is perfect, but I can't watch it often because it's so touching and sad. Really affects me emotionally.