Joni Mitchell Still Hates Madonnna (And Bob Dylan)

Love it! Go Joni.

Someone should remind Joni that the WORLD has fall under the spell of Madonna since the 1980's. Whatever you might think of her or her music, this can't be denied.

Here's the actual interview. She's not slamming Dylan, but essentially saying that Dylan created an image.

She's insufferable and overrated, even if I agree with her opinions.

"Someone should remind Joni that the WORLD has fall under the spell of Madonna since the 1980's. Whatever you might think of her or her music, this can't be denied."

That is true and some of the most ardent Madonna fans are Europeans who like to claim Madonna as their own. But, I think Joni has a point and that 1980 was a turning point but, that was because of Reaganites. Madonna didn't come around until a few years later.

As a woman, I am glad Madonna presented a strong persona and not a weak victim but, her super ego has had a bad influence on the ones who were little girls when she became popular. They are among this current generation who are over confident and cannot handle an ounce of criticism.

"(Mitchell also abandoned her birth name, Roberta Joan Anderson.)"

That's hardly fair. She was always called Joni, and Mitchell was her first married name. She came by both names "honestly."

Still, what a cranky old bitch.

r5 while I agree with your last sentence regarding this generation of young women being over confident, I'd say it hardly has anything to do with Madonna.

Hate, hate, hate Bod Dylan. Fugly, fake and painful to hear. So he wrote a few protest songs in the '60's. Madonna has her place. Joni does, too- just not at the top of the charts. I bet she sells stuff incognito on Ebay to make ends meet.

Is there a female artist Joni likes? I don't think she likes other women and enjoys being the only "girl in the boys' club".

The current generation is more concerned with shock tactics and sexualizing everything than with crafting their songwriting skills and stepping up their performances. When all else fails, take your clothes off or pull some outrageous stunt. It's foolish to think that Madonna isn't somewhat responsible for that.

Joni and Bob defined a generation through their songs. Their music will always speak for them. Madonna's music speaks for a generation, but it's also avalanched under a mountain of music videos, scandals and elaborate performances.

Why do so many performers of his generation hate Bob Dylan?

"Yet Mitchell still had time to slag off Grace Slick and Janis Joplin (allegedly they were "[sleeping with] their whole bands and falling down drunk")

I don't know about Janis's band, but who could blame Grace for fucking her way through Jefferson Airplane? All those guys were good-looking.

Joni Mitchell never lies.

[quote]Yet Mitchell still had time to slag off Grace Slick and Janis Joplin (allegedly they were "[sleeping with] their whole bands and falling down drunk")

Oh heavens, rock stars who fucked and drank. What is the world coming to?

Joni sounds like someone's cranky grandmother.

You are right r7, it is their parents who made them this way.

"Why do so many performers of his generation hate Bob Dylan?"

Because he didn't join their club. He kept to himself.

Fuck this old bitch.

God, the interview with her and John Kelly is awful. She's so full of herself, so over the moon about his "homage" and whatnot (an overrated drag show touted as "performance" is what it really is). The only reason she has time for it is because her ass is being kissed so royally.

She is completely insufferable, which I've always suspected, given past pronouncements and her equally insufferable fans.

Bob Dylan is the most overrated performer of the Baby Boomer musicians. And she's right, he is a plagiarist. Since the arrival of the Internet and computer technology, Dylan has been found to have plagiarized a great number of people, lifting everything from entire song melodies to poetry from the Civil War era.

What really shows the gall of Bob Dylan is that he plagiarized an entire song when he was 16 years old and passed it off as a poem he'd written. He'd learned the song at camp when he was 15 years old. The following year, he went to a different camp and entered a poetry writing contest. He won first prize by writing the lyrics of the song he'd learned the previous summer. You would think he would be satisfied just by pulling the wool over the eyes of his camp counselers, yes? No. He actually included the lyrics in an autobiography and passed it off as his own poem. I guess he figured the relatives of the songwriters were illiterate, or that nobody else had ever heard the song before. How fucking brazen can you be?

And people still defend the guy saying, "oh he is such a great genius, he was merely influenced by other geniuses!" Meanwhile, he'd be failed by a high school teacher for pulling that shit in today's plagiarism-savvy tech atmosphere.

This coming from the woman who let Janet Jackson sample one of her songs, and called her a musical genius.

Bob Dylan sucks. Always has and always will. His songs are meaningless nonsense that people have attributed great meaning to because of media conditioning.

Wow, something vaguely political! It's great art, people!

[quote] Why do so many performers of his generation hate Bob Dylan?

Because he is a plagiarist and a poseur. Back in the early 1970s when Dylan was still God, i remember Alex Bennett saying on his radio show that Dylan was hated by musicians who knew him in his Greenwich Village days and was called "Old Stickyfingers" because of his propensity to steal from them.

The reason why Dylan withdrew from the public was because he was out of ideas. Other people's ideas. Young musicians who'd idolized him stopped visiting him because they would play a song for him they were working on to get his opinion and find it on his next album. Back then people didn't have tje recording technology we have today, so these musicians hadn't recorded themselves and had no proof Dylan stile from them. When portable tape recorders came along and musicians could easily tape songs they were working on, Bob Dylan's output dried up.

Joni Mitchell has "Morgellons disease" -- a fake disease. She's delusional.

I never cared for Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell. They had some great songs. By any means, I am not a fan of them.

I apologize for my typos. My iPhone is constantly at war with my fingerpad and undermines it. And for some reason, the iPhone won't allow me to view my entire post after I've written it, so I can edit. It will only show me a small amount of what I've typed. It also capitalizes for no reason and takes a word I've typed and turns it into a completely different word.

The tyranny of Apple strikes again.

DOn't worry r25. Not all of us are queens.

IIRC, Joni Mitchell has always been difficult to deal with. But she is a far better songwriter than Bob Dylan. Circle Game, Both Sides Now, Big Yellow Taxi and Free Man in Paris are classics.

[quote]"(Mitchell also abandoned her birth name, Roberta Joan Anderson.)"

That's hardly fair. She was always called Joni, and Mitchell was her first married name. She came by both names "honestly."

interestingly, she goes by "Joan" among family and friends. Never Joni.

oops, the middle sentence above was meant to be a part of the quote. I didn't say that bit - but was responding to that discussion.

It's not fake, R23, it's just unexplained. Someone a few years ago gave unexplained dermatological issues a name (Morgellon), but that is very misleading. The medical community doesn't believe there is a single universal cause for this condition. One person's unexplained dermopathy won't have the same etiology as another person's.

She's a brilliant songwriter and has an incredible voice.

The entire folk scene was based on plagiarizing the generations before it.

she's right but she's a total bitter bitch.

I don't think she's bitter or a bitch. She's got more talent and integrity than most performers and she's not fake.

She's a bitch but not in a fun way. She needs to hop into her big yellow taxi and get lost.

Only if you're under it r35.

[quote] The entire folk scene was based on plagiarizing the generations before it.

Joni was a folkie. She's always been a bitch, but she's never plagiarized.

You're about as much fun as ole Joni, r36. Scram.

Please don't argue you two, or I'll have to stick a voluptuous cat butt in each of your faces. And I don't want it to come to that.

You're a humourless bore r38. There is a bus waiting for you...be under it.

Joni slagging other women for fucking around? She had a kid out of wedlock and put the child up for adoption fer crissakes.

And she fucked around with all kinds of rock stars and celebrities.

Would anyone mind providing some links on the issue of Dylan's rampant plagiarism? I am an avid reader of ROLLING STONE (I know, I know) and would think they would have had a discussion about all of this - whether its true or not - but I remember no such piece. Perhaps since they deify him to such an extent they felt it would paint them to be musical fools and hypocrites (what's new)?

By the way, there are companies out there that can take a song and match it to most other recorded music, comparing it to similar songs and they often come up with near-plagiarism: it's something like 7 or 8 notes in order that the two songs share that would be considered a case of plagiarism. I remember there was an issue about the song "Hello, Dolly" where an obscure songwriter sued Jerry Herman & David Merrick and actually won the case and subsequently receives a royalty from the song. Andrew Lloyd Webber is notorious for shipping off all his new scores to one of these data-centers to make sure he hasn't hewed to closely to another composer's tune, though he has famously won all the cases against him accusing him of plagiarism (and there have been quite a few - too bad Puccini can't sue).

Sorry, above it should be "it's" and "too".

Yeah, r41. I think it was Rolling Stone that did a chart of her songs matching the song to who she was sleeping with when she wrote it, ie who it was probably about: Neil Young, Warren Beatty, Sam Sheppard, David Geffen, Jackson Browne, David Crosby, Graham Nash, James Taylor etc etc etc.

I mean, I love me some Joni but her affairs with these men and many others are well-known, so it's a bit like pot meet kettle.

R42- Google is your friend. There's tons of stuff about Dylan plagiarizing other's works online. Here's just one example...

Mitchell didn't accuse them of "sleeping around". She accused them of having sex with all the members of their bands. In the rock world of that era this was a taboo. your bandmates were like your family- it was considered incestuous.

More Dylan theft.

article about the early Dylan poem that has turned out to be someone else's song...

[quote]Mitchell didn't accuse them of "sleeping around". She accused them of having sex with all the members of their bands. In the rock world of that era this was a taboo. your bandmates were like your family- it was considered incestuous.

Really? Okay, I didn't know that. But she still shouldn't judge people like that. Such a fuddy-duddy old lady thing to do.

Wow, thanks for those links. That EW story is almost shocking it is so transparent that Dylan is a blatant plagiarist - and of course being the Deity he is, no one has the balls to call him out on it or take legal action. It makes me sick.

I never liked Dylan, but as someone who considers plagiarism THE greatest theft of all (more so than food, love, even children), I now abhor him. May he rot in Hell.

That's not true, R46. So why isn't she slamming the Mamas & Papas or any of the other dozens of 60s groups where members were sleeping with each other?

I don't care that Dylan takes lines sometimes. Show me that he stole "Like a Rolling Stone," "Idiot Wind," "I Dreamed I Saw Saint Augustine," "I'm Not There," "She's Your Lover Now," "Mr. Tambourine Man," "This Wheel's on Fire," and "Tangled Up in Blue," and I'll be interested.

I couldn't give less of a shit about his folk period.

I like Joni, but she's as cranky as Van Morrison. Maybe more so.

R30:

In 2001,[1][11] according to Mary Leitao, her then two-year-old son developed sores under his lip and began to complain of "bugs."[12] Leitao, who graduated with a BS in Biology, and worked for five years at Boston hospitals as a lab technician before becoming a stay-at-home mother, says she examined the sores with her son's toy microscope and discovered red, blue, black, and white fibers.[1][13][14] She states that she took her son to see at least eight different doctors who were unable to find any disease, allergy, or anything unusual about her son's described symptoms. Dr. Fred Heldrich, a Johns Hopkins pediatrician with a reputation "for solving mystery cases," examined Leitao's son.[1] Heldrich found nothing abnormal about the boy's skin, wrote to the referring physician that "Leitao would benefit from a psychiatric evaluation and support," and registered his worry about Leitao's "use" of her son.[1] Psychology Today reports that Leitao last consulted an unnamed Johns Hopkins infectious disease specialist who after reviewing her son's records refused to see him, suggesting Leitao herself might suffer from "Munchausen's by proxy, a psychiatric syndrome in which a parent pretends a child is sick or makes him sick to get attention from the medical system."[14] This opinion of a potential psychological disorder, according to Leitao, was shared by several medical professionals she sought out:[15]

Most dermatologists, psychiatrists, and other medical professionals view Morgellons as a new name for a well established condition, delusional parasitosis,[41] also known as "delusions of parasitosis" (DP or DOP) and Ekbom's Syndrome: Morgellons is "a pattern of dermatologic symptoms very similar, if not identical, to those of delusions of parasitosis,"[41] and "the vast majority"[26] (elsewhere, 95%)[42] of Morgellons patients are diagnosed with delusional parasitosis or another psychosomatic illness. This explanation is, however, "unpopular among individuals identifying themselves as having Morgellons disease."[43]

R52- you're an idiot. He STOLE the very first poem that he supposedly wrote. you don't think that he stole other people's work along the way, during his career? we wouldn't even know about these examples if someone hadn't caught them in the age of the internet. Who knows what other obscure works he stole from.

get some ethics asshole.

R51- You're joking, right?

Sorry if it wasn't clear in my first post, but Mary Leitao is the woman who came up with the name of "Morgellons disease" and started the activism group. She sounds unhinged.

If Joni Mitchell thinks she sees multicolored fibers in her skin, she's unhinged too.

"So why isn't she slamming the Mamas & Papas or any of the other dozens of 60s groups where members were sleeping with each other?"

The Mamas and the Papas were a pop group, not a rock band. I'm sure she considers them beneath her notice. And two of them were already married to each other anyway.

So: dozens?? Unless you're referring to severely underpublicized gay affairs you should be telling us about, how many bands even had women in them who were available for that? The Velvet Underground, Jefferson Airplane, and ...?

There are ONLY 8 notes. Plaigerism is bound to happen.

R54, I don't care what he did when he was in high school. I don't care that he stole lines. There's more to a song than that. I do believe that he engaged in some sleazy All About Eve-style behavior when he was trying to make it. I can't say I would have wanted to know him. But he has a rich and monstrous body of work.

We know Jimmy Page took Dazed and Confused lock, stock, and barrel from Jake Holmes and claimed it as his own. We know about all the riffs he took from Spirit and Bert Jansch. I do in fact believe that if Dylan's 30-odd masterpieces weren't his, we'd know more about that by now. He was amazingly prolific from '64 to '66, when he was taking shitloads of speed and everything else he could get his hands on. I don't believe he could have managed to steal enough to make that many nearly-peerless albums, no matter how many people he met along the way.

"You have to be a bastard to make it, and that's a fact. And the Beatles are the biggest bastards on earth," said John Lennon, who stole the "I Feel Fine" and "Day Tripper" riffs from Bobby Parker and Bo Diddley, respectively. (Parker says he's proud to have been an influence; I doubt Bo was as pleased.)

The appeal of Joni Mitchell at her time is that she was the first performer I ever heard on the radio that wrote songs from a woman's perspective. Other women sang folk songs or fronted rock bands, but Joni's intensely personal lyrics were the first inklings of validation I had for my own girl feelings which I did not hear reflected in popular culture until she came along. For that alone she will always be a hero to me no matter how cranky she is in her later life.

[quote]It's foolish to think that Madonna isn't somewhat responsible for that.

It is incredibly foolish to think this never happened before Madonna came along. You give the woman far too much credit. Grace Jones and Andrea True were doing it long before Madonna. Before them it was Josephine Baker, etc...

Mitchell is incredibly bitter. Se never reached the success of a Madonna or even possessed half the talent of a Grace Slick or Janis Joplin. Fuck, Carly Simon is even more respected than Mitchell.

Joni used to slag on Karen Carpenter and Carole King, too. So transparent.

Of course she considers Janet Jackson a musical genius. Jackson's whole career has built on samples and blatant rip-offs of more respected artists' music. She is even less talented than Mitchell, so therefore Joni feels less threatened by her.

R53, your best chance to get actual information is go to the sources they site. Wiki articles themselves tend to be pretty low on facts.

Leitao is the one who came up with the name Morgellons, and that she and many others fall into this category (quoted from your beloved Wikipedia): "The main purported symptom of Morgellons is 'a fixed belief' that fibers are embedded or extruding from the skin."

However, many who think they have Morgellons don't have a unsubstantiated symptoms. Rather, they have specific, documented symptoms of no known cause, most of which can be treated symptomatically. However, if the treatment doesn't work the way patients want them to, or if the treatment is unsuccessful, it's likely they will latch on to an unsubstantiated condition like Morgellons.

Since I don't know Mitchell's actual condition, it doesn't seem implausible to me that she has an as-yet undiagnosed condition and just believes she has Morgellons. Given the lack of medical knowledge in the general populace (often because they go on the Internet and read Wikipedia and think they are experts) I am unwilling to deem her stark raving mad simply because of the Morgellons issue.

Joni's albums hold up 40 years after they were produced. They are like lyrical poetry.

Bob Dylan went through more extremes in his styles.

Joni does not need to sell things on eBay. She has quite a cataloge of songs, almost all which she wrote and has song rights to as well as other artists covering her music.

R59, Bob Dylan SUED Hootie and the Blowfish for quoting from his songs in "Only Want to be With You." In the very lyrics of the song itself, the band acknowledges Bob Dylan as the source of the lyrics.

Bob Dylan has NEVER acknowledged the people he stole from.

How come it's okay for Dylan to steal other people's work without acknowledgement and also okay for Dylan to take money from Hootie and the Blowfish for using Dylan's lines, but acknowledging that they were his?

R30, in Mitchell's own words:

"Fibres in a variety of colors protrude out of my skin like mushrooms after a rainstorm: they cannot be forensically identified as animal, vegetable or mineral. Morgellons is a slow, unpredictable killer – a terrorist disease: it will blow up one of your organs, leaving you in bed for a year. In America ... [doctors] send you to a psychiatrist. I'm actually trying to get out of the music business to battle for Morgellons sufferers to receive the credibility that's owed to them."

She sounds exactly like the Leitao woman about her son.

Don't you think if someone actually had multi-colored fibers protruding from their skin, doctors would treat that seriously instead of as a psychiatric condition?

Of course she doesn't like what Madonna did, she's part of the old-guard who would only write about women from the woman-as-a-victim perspective. Madonna's ballsy attitude, I'm sure, has always infuriated her. Madonna took one look at the rules and decided to change them. Madonna empowered women by telling them "don't go for second best, put your lover to the test, make him respect how you feel, put your lover to the test.." while Mitchell warbled "late last night i heard the screen door slam and a big yellow taxi took away my old man."

She probably hates how Madonna changed the rules, became pregnant on purpose and proudly gave birth to a much-wanted child. Poor old Joni, now she can only get attention by claiming to see fibers sprouting from her skin.

She is still resentful. I saw her in concert, where she opened for Dylan (whom I can't stand).

People were heckling her, yelling for Dylan. She got pissed off and started arguments with them.

"Mitchell is incredibly bitter. Se never reached the success of a Madonna or even possessed half the talent of a Grace Slick or Janis Joplin. Fuck, Carly Simon is even more respected than Mitchell."

What? No part of that post after "Madonna" corresponds to consensus reality.

"How come it's okay for Dylan to steal other people's work without acknowledgement and also okay for Dylan to take money from Hootie and the Blowfish for using Dylan's lines, but acknowledging that they were his?"

I can't justify it, r64. Maybe it was a lawyer's idea. Maybe he didn't like the idea of such a lousy band capitalizing on his persona. Maybe he's just a gigantic hypocrite. This has no effect on my love for Blood on the Tracks, John Wesley Harding, or all the stuff on the Bootleg Tapes that was ten times better than the records he was actually releasing at the time.

If it helps, r54, I did buy an actual copy of Confessions of a Yakuza. It's a fascinating read.

I love Joni but she has always exhibited a tendency to hold a grudge against some of her ex lovers (insert Jackson Browne here), or those that she desperately wanted but couldn't bag, namely Dylan. I also believe that she struck out at Slick and Joplin because only Joni got the rep of the being the biggest slag back in the day, while those two escaped unscathed.

Did Joni also hate Debbie Harry?

[quote] or even possessed half the talent of a Grace Slick or Janis Joplin.

Now that is just ridiculous. Joni Mitchell is an incredibly talented songwriter/ musician/arranger. Grace Slick was a fun person, but a musician? No. A talented songwiter of Mitchell's caliber? No. Janis Joplin was also a fun person who was very vulnerable and seemed sweet despite the hard-drinkin' broad persona. But she was not in any way as talented as Mitchell was as a songwriter.

Joni Mitchell is not a nice person. She never has been. She is an annoying egotist who has at least one loose screw rattling around in her head. But her talent is undeniable. She has written songs that have become a part of the canon of late 20th century popular music.

Lots of talented artists are shitballs, personality wise. Mick Jagger, Pete Townshend, John Lennon were all egotistical bastards. Picasso was a real winner, no? An absolute creep. But their work can't be judged by their personalities (nor should their personalities be allowed to treat people badly just because they are great artists).

"Someone should remind Joni that the WORLD has fall under the spell of Madonna since the 1980's. Whatever you might think of her or her music, this can't be denied."

"The world?" No, only queens like you.

The defense of Joni being upset with females who fucked their own bands doesn't even hold up since she was fucking John Guerin of the LA Express who backed her up in the tour which resulted in "Miles of Aisles". Of course, she probably created her own rules since she was queen bee by that time.

Often lost on straight male music critics and heterocentrics is the importance of Madonna and her music to many gays (not all, I know).

I would never have guessed that gays have such an affinity for Joni Mitchell. She's certainly discussed here a lot. She hasn't had a hit since 1974. Has Buffy Ste. Marie offered any opinions on pop music lately?

Joni Mitchell hates ALL women in music. I remember a number of years ago she unleashed an unprovoked attack against Alanis Morissette and Sarah McLachlan. Mitchell is a huge bitch who seems to be determined to alienate everyone.

Joni Mitchell has a huge lesbian following, always has.

Joni Mitchell is a musical genius. Madonna is a businesswoman. Apples and Oranges boys.

She's a very unpleasant person who demands accolades. Talent is so often wasted on ungrateful, self-centered people like her.

Joni was a legitimate songwriter who was never appreciated.

However we live in a society where a plagiarist like Dylan gets accolades for being a man and the only other women who get up there are vapid crap like Madonna who cannot write music for shit.

Team Joni.

About the name change. I assume Dylan changed his name to hide the fact he was Jewish.

R71, got it right and Madonna's idea of empowerment meant becoming the best prostie on the block. She's not far removed from the high school "nasty girl" stereotype. I still see her giggling over the rape of the fat girl in "Truth or Dare".

Hmm.

Joni Mitchell is a good person and never sold her soul. She's a truly great artist. She says it like it is because her career was made on talent rather than spin.

I guess the question is, are there ANY female artists that Joni Mitchell has actually praised (other than the supposed Janet Jackson compliment, which boggles the mind)?

Thank you, r71. At last someone talks sense!

Do you ask male artists the same question?

Sorry, but Mitchell, as many of the folkies, are such old blowhards. Mitchell is lucky people are still interviewing her. If she didn't mention Dylan and Madonna, the interview would never have gotten major press. She only makes news when she bashes others.

Mitchell is NOT a musical genius. She is C-level at best.

"Joni Mitchell is a good person and never sold her soul. "

HUH? When she was in her 20s dumped a husband, put he daughter up for adoption and ran off to NYC to find fame and money. Bitch was a sellout from the start.

R87 is clearly not a musician. She's got one of the best voices of this century.

R89 is clearly one of those people still hanging in Washington Square, smoking a joint,strumming about the good ol' days, when music was real and had something to say.

Say what you want about her personality, but the people who deny Mitchell's obvious musical genius just boggle my mind!

Where do you hang out? Bars? Nightclubs? Places that have replaced music with electronic beat machines?

We're a tacky, superficial, materialistic culture. Americans can't even think for themselves.

[quote]She only makes news when she bashes others.

Now THAT is the truth!

[quote] Say what you want about her personality, but the people who deny Mitchell's obvious musical genius just boggle my mind!

R91, it's just a troll He doesn't really believe what he's writing, he's just trying to rile people by disagreeing with them. Nobody could believe what he is writing. It is just too silly.

I agree with Joni.

Bow down bitches--she is THE songwriting genius of postwar America.

Photo with Madonna and Joni together.

We live in a world where you are considered unhinged if you say what's on your mind. Saying what you *really* think is a big no-no in the US.

I HAVE MULTI-COLORED FIBERS SPROUTING FROM MY LIPS, AAAARGH!!!

Oh wait, scratch that, I passed out face-down on the rug and got a mouthful of brocade.

In the context of the actual interview, she's really not being mean about the Grace Slick/Janis Joplin thing.

As r98's link shows, Joni has had the opportunity to criticize Madonna to her face, so why didn't she? I supposed at the time Joni was happy to get her picture taken next to Madonna since it was guaranteed to get published.

Don't be so literal, r102. It seems they were at an event together with other celebrities and someone snapped a photo. Mitchell is not even posing for the camera. She seems to stand away from Madonna, too. Except for Cher, everyone is focused on something else going on, probably, on stage.

R75, I know you are being funny but I LOVE Buffy Sainte-Marie and I am 38.

I also love the three Js: Joan (Baez,) Joni (Mitchell) and Judy (Collins.)

If you honestly think that Joni Mitchell cares what Madonna thinks than you need a lobotomy.

r98's link also shows Cher's 4th face.

"Joni Mitchell hates ALL women in music."

Not true. Over the years she's had great things to say about Linda Ronstadt, Laura Nyro, Chaka Khan, Billie Holliday, Janet Jackson. She adores Annie Ross, and has glowingly praised her numerous times. Even some singer name Florence Foster Jenkins.

Speaking of Janet, she never said she was a musical genius, she said the song was a work of genius because of the way they used her sample.

"Grace Jones and Andrea True were doing it long before Madonna. Before them it was Josephine Baker, etc..."

None of them had anywhere near the impact that Madonna had on the mainstream. Baker was never fully appreciated by America, her popularity was mainly in Europe, and Jones had a devoted cult following. Yes, there were other artists that pushed the envelope and did it better, but Madonna was the first one who managed to successfully do it in the mainstream, warts and all. She didn't turn prude like Bette or try to distance herself from it like Donna, she embraced it and flaunted it proudly.

BTW ANDREA TRUE?! Are you fucking kidding me? You're actually comparing some one hit wonder to Madonna?

R61, no one's more respected than Mitchell. Popular? Yes, but not respected.

The last time I saw Richard was

Detroit in '68 and he told me

"all Romantics meet the same fate someday,

cynical and drunk and boring someone in

some dark cafe.

You laugh," he said, "you think you're immune.

Go look in your own eyes, they're full of moon.

You like roses and kisses and pretty men to

tell you all those pretty lies. When you gonna

realize they're only pretty lies?"

"while I agree with your last sentence regarding this generation of young women being over confident"

Freeper alert! This is a common freeper talking point. (Kids are too overconfident! They have no discipline)

Mitchell will be completely forgotten about after she dies. She'll be nothing more than a footnote in the history of rock and roll music. Those who think she's some kind of genius are just as deluded and pretentious as she is.

Joni smokes.

They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.

This woman has been insufferable for 30 years, and all the while her ego has expanded as her talent has dwindled.

R112: Just curious--who will be remembered?

The truth is that Mitchell is one of the great white songwriters of the post-war era and her music matters. Trash her all you want, but the fact is that in 50 years she will matter. Same with Dylan. What is so laughable (and sad)is that the music people like R112 listen to is irrelevant even now. It will become even more irrelevant over time.

Like R112 et al (that's Latin, R112 et al--I do not assume you are as intelligent as sophisticated I am)

Don't know about all of the lifting, but I love Bob Dylan.

"Tangled Up in Blue" is a masterpiece. And I'm not a fan of the majority of the folk period.

Mitchell's reputation for being being a miserable cow grows with each passing year, as does her reputation as being a first rate songwriter.

Who ever it was who suggested that Carly Simon is "more respected" is, clearly, functionally retarded.

R116, maybe it's because I'm over 50 and don't listen to a lot of current music, but I tend to agree that Mitchell's music will outlast most of what is being produced today.

There was a point to it and she had a unique phrasing, if that's the term, as in a "Free Man in Paris."

"The way I see it..."

I doubt Joni is more insufferable than Madonna. She's a musical genius who is disgusted at the corporate takeover of her field.

Shouldn't she be selling term life insurance or adult undergarments or something?

She doesn't care about making a buck off of everything. Madonna should though.

She is pain in the ass and she's a genius. Plus (and thanks to her talent, her savvy, her luck, and David Geffen) she is INCREDIBLY wealthy.

She had the most original sense of rhythm since Bill Withers.

Don't forget that in her heyday, there were no music videos. Madonna became such a phenomenon because of music videos.

Oh, it's drama, girls! Just enjoy it... Don't pick sides - pop some popcorn!

Madonna has said before in interviews that she loved Joni Mitchell growing up, particularly Blue and Court and Spark. (I prefer Hejira, myself. Insanely good.) Maybe it's a bit ungraceful of her to say, especially since she did give props to Janet - but whatever.

Actually, I like both Madonna and Joni Mitchell.

After reading the actual interview, it seems like the discussion here has very little to do with it.

Her issue with band-members sleeping with each other is in the context of how she was famously considered kind of a slut back in the day. She mentions the diagram in Rolling Stone. As I recall, it was a diagram of who was sleeping with whom in the LA music scene and Joni was at the epicenter. The National Lampoon used to make fun of her for sleeping around. In the interview, she's talking about how there were much more blatant stories out there that didn't get the attention she did because of the fact that she had a few well-known relationships.

She's definitely bitter, but this interview is the least bitter one I've seen with her in years.

Joni, get back to us when Glee does a full episode of your songs.

Please, like those losers could even understand her songs.

Three fourths of Crosy, Still, Nash, and Young.

Well, I came upon a child of God . . .

I guess I'm not part of the world because I find Madonna to be a limited talent who's arrogant with way too much ugly and nasty attitude. All style over substance and from talking with friends, I know I'm not the only one. Way to go Joni!

Her pretensions to jazz are embarrassing. She obviously doesn't know what jazz is and is too arrogant to care.

R132 She knows Jazz and plays with legends.

Our society is depressing. We are obsessed with junk on televison, junk food, junk culture. We bow at the feet of corporations that tell us how to think. Madonna is a product of this. Joni Mitchell is a musical genius who says it like it is.

Love her or hate her, Madonna is junk food. She's comfort junk food. Mitchell is dinner at an expensive restaurant with witty, engaging companions.

I never liked junk.

Is Joni still burning through two or three packs a day? She's in her late sixties, which means she's really heading into COPD territory.

Love Joni, even though she's cranky.

I remember back in 2002 or so she was asked to name a modern song she like and she chose "You get what you give" by the New Radicals. Excellent choice!

"Thankfully, Weller does take Mitchell to task for her pretentious blackface alter ego “Art Nouveau,” and her notion that she was actually a “pale black artist”:

‘Like many young white people of her generation, Joni romanticized being black (without the disadvantages of being black, of course). She would increasingly insist that her music was “black” and that, as it progressed deeply into jazz, it should be played on black stations (it rarely was). “My harmonies were not very ‘white,’ like James Taylor’s or Carole King’s,” she would later say (wrongly, in the case of Carole, whose music is largely R&B based).’"

I like all the early music best.

I was a free man in Paris...

After reading the article, I agree that the OP completely misrepresents what she said.

The OP is Madonna?

#1 I say this as a former hater- People that slam Dylan have never listened to Dylan so STFU.

# 2 Madonna has never impressed me that much. However, the reason she became so huge IMO is because girls wanted someone like themselves that they could relate to, and in the beginning Madonna was that person, also she was tough, sexy, and fun which no other female artist was like that before her. Pat Benatar was close but seemed too mature for the little girls to relate to, Cindy Lauper was fun but not sexy and kinda gimmicky lame really.

# 3 I agree with what R-9 said, Mitchell is very overrated and bitter she slams all other female artist. She seems very petty.

"She would increasingly insist that her music was "black" and that, as it progressed deeply into jazz, it should be played on black stations (it rarely was)."

I remember a few years back there was a segment on a CBC program here in Canada in which Joni stated something to the effect that blacks appreciated (or connected with) her music more than whites. I thought it was an odd comment so it's interesting to hear that she has a history of making these kind of comments.

[italic]Our society is depressing. We are obsessed with junk on televison, junk food, junk culture. We bow at the feet of corporations that tell us how to think. Madonna is a product of this. Joni Mitchell is a musical genius who says it like it is.[/italic]

You're 90, and will be dead soon. Stop wasting space on here, and get off the home's computer!

She's a flibbertigibbet, a will-o-the-wisp, a clown.

She's right about Dylan. I don't think she's really dissing his work; she's just saying it was inauthentic. And it was. In creating himself Dylan nicked as much as he could from singers and music that came before him, Woody Guthrie in particular. He even gave himself Dylan Thomas's name. It was all part of his plan. Musicians call the people they steal from their "influences." It's not uncommon thing; John Lennon said he did it all the time.

And of course she's 100 percent right about Madonna.

Our society is depressingly superficial and tacky.

Blue ink on a pin! Underneath the skin an empty space to fill in. With imaginary parasites!

For an interesting look into Joni, watch the Canadian documentary produced a few years back. She sits at a kitchen table smoking her cigarettes and telling very interesting and funny stories. She is indeed a gifted storyteller. I also think her musical output is astonishing.

She certainly is getting a bit eccentric as she approaches her dotage...bless her for that. Does she put her foot in her mouth from time to time? Yeah, probably. Does she say things that are taken out of context? Yup.

I am grateful to have "Blue", "Court and Spark" and "Hejira" burned into my memory. (But, I also have room for "Blood on the Tracks".)

I really love her.

What R150 said.

I just watched some interviews with Annie Lennox and she, basically, feels there's Joni and then there's no one else.

“Joni Mitchell is the reason why I started to write songs. She was my template. And there’s absolutely no one of her poetic stature on the planet, as far as I’m concerned.

“She was like a blueprint unbeknownst to me. She was the singer/songwriter who gave me the idea that if I wrote music it would give me a sense of relief, whether it was from pain or of beauty."

Joni might not have fucked her band members, but she did fuck a lot of other musicians, Stephen Stills and some others from CSN&Y.

I wonder if she fucked Chris Botti, he was in her band for awhile and he was enamored.

I have to say I think I love Joni now!!

Joni was in a relatively long-term relationship with Graham Nash in the 60s, not Stephen Stills. He was involved with Judy Collins.

Joni is the goddess of songwriting and her voice is simply sublime. You can't compare her to a pop star who does catchy Vegas dance numbers.

The book "Hotel California" tells a funny story about Mitchell and Ronstadt. It seems they were both seeing J.D. Souther and one of them arrived at Souther's home just as the other was leaving.

This has reminded me that when I was 25 back in 1972 I met Joni - she was have been 2 years older - purely by chance in the street, here in London in the then fashionable Kings Road - it was about a week after she and Jackson Brown were appearing here - I was on a bus stalled in traffic and spotted them walking along, so I got off the bus and walked behind them - then he ran on ahead leaving her on her own so I said "Joni Mitchell?" and she turned and smiled and was very pleasant as we walked on together chatting about the recent concert. Of course at that time - after 'Blue', before 'For The Roses' - we loved the albums - she was amazingly popular but could still walk out without being bothered much, and she was approachable too. I remember her telling me she could not run much due to the polio she had as a child. They were trying to find an art gallery before it closed and I knew where it was so walked her along to it, where Jackson was waiting. Its a nice 70s memory...

I dare say nowdays one could never approach someone like that in the street as they would probably have a minder or bodyguard - or maybe people were not so up themselves then.

and me again - from last one. I love that vhs video collection she put out, maybe over 10 years ago now - there was one video for "Dancing Clown" where she is washing dishes at the sink, bopping around, playing with her cat and of course smoking, smoking, smoking... its absolutely delightful.

Our culture is vapid now.

yes r159 - thats the "Come in from the Cold" video - pity its not on dvd, like her "Shadows and Light".

How lovely to have met her - and not get your head bitten off ! - imagine approaching Madonna in the street, as if you could ...

Vapid is just the right word. Yay America, where tits, glitz and bling always win over real talent. I dare you to click on post 97's utube link, then actually listen to her sing that song and work that dulcimer, and say she's not an immense talent - even if you hate her voice or her style. I haven't been too pernonally moved by her post 70's output, but I can appreciate what went into it. OK, she's a cunt. Always has been. Stupidity and mediocrity offend sensitive and creative people, people of genius. So what? Who cares what she thinks, what she says, or who she fucked? (Personally, I hate her for having had Graham Nash in his handsome, hippie youth) It's only the music that should count.

The recent book on Joni, Carly and Carole King was a great read. Wonder what James Taylor thought of it?: worked with Carole, romanced and dumped Joni, married and divorced Carly ...

If you want to watch real talent, go to You Tube and type in "Night Ride Home." There is a live version performed on Dutch tv in 1992. Breathtaking--Joni on guitar, singing, and taking her listeners to another world. Beautiful song, and one that she could not have written 20 years ealier.

I have insisted for years that the 90's work is far, far better than people think--and despite its thinness, there are wonderful moments on "Shine." Yes, the smoking has taken a toll on her voice, but it has a depth of maturity now that was absent in the late 60's and early 70's. Listen to "If I Had a Heart" and the way she slowly sings the chorus. Deeply moving, and there's no attempt to change her voice. Let's face it.

No one--absolutely no one--who is popular today will last the way she has. Case closed. Does anyone believe that in 20 years there will be a thread about the genius of Lady Gaga or Amy Winehouse?

Most people who are not middle aged or elderly have no idea who Joni Mitchell is, fyi.

Ranger, I don't remember you ever sounding so curmudgeonly.

But to answer your last question seriously, Amy's seems doomed to be a one-hit wonder, and Gaga's at the beginning of her career, so who knows. But why them and not, say, PJ Harvey or Joanna Newsome or somebody?

That's true, r166, but as they go through life, they'll learn about many things that they haven't heard of. It's the up side of maturing.

R158, I remember your story from an old thread. It was great then as it is now. Thanks for sharing. Someone else wrote about hanging out with her at her house. She sounded like a complicated person, maybe a little bit disappointed with the world. But what intelligent person isn't?

Here's a very strange trio singing "I Shall be Released".

Thanks r169 - yes I did post that before .... Joni's fame was that nice kind where the intelligent people like you but you are not mobbed where ever you go and can travel around without being bothered - contrast with today's level of celebrity and instant fame wannabes where you are not famous unless you have minders and red carpet events and have to make a big show of being so important.

How can an intelligent, sensitive person NOT be upset about the injustice in the world?

R167: You remember in a kinder light than some other posters, lol.

To a large degree I agree with Mitchell. I have said this over and over again: does anyone think that if "American Idol" was around 40 years ago that Mitchell or Leonard Cohen would have made it? If "American Idol" was around in the 60's I doubt that The Beatles or Dylan would have been successful. Who is to blame?

Well, Rupert Murdoch, for one. He gives us Fox, Roger Ailles, "American Idol," and a hungering for garbage that remains unabated. You also have hip hop, which substitutes attitude and vulgarity for intelligence--Johnny Rotten at most hostile sounds like Yeats compared to Lil' Wayne.

Btw, there is a doctoral dissertation waiting to be written on the right-wing influence in popular culture since 1990. Dr Dre (yes, a Rethug), Murdoch, the creators of "South Park..." the list goes on. The right-wing loves what is vulgar and stupid.

If I have to explain why, then you are vulgar and stupid.

Yes, r150 is correct (or, at least, completely in tune w/me). What is the name of the Canadian program in which she tells the stories?

[quote]I have said this over and over again: does anyone think that if "American Idol" was around 40 years ago that Mitchell or Leonard Cohen would have made it?

This is such a bullshit comparison. Leonard Cohen wouldn't have made it on American Bandstand or Hullabaloo, either. When did he ever even get played on Top 40 radio? Joni had a hit with "Big Yellow Taxi," but that's not exactly to her credit; a lot of people my age (30, btw) know that one song, think it's trite and silly, and don't look any further.

Who takes American Idol winners seriously, as actual entertainers rather than as contestants in a singing version of Survivor? People who would have bought that shitty, shitty commercial pop music that did so well in the '70s, that's who. People who bought Doobie Brothers albums and made "You Light Up My Life" a hit.

The musicians you're looking for don't get played on the radio because: 1) radio is a pay-for-play business now; 2) Clear Channel is a soulless corporate monster; and 3) for decades now, record companies have been going for the quick buck, putting no money into development, squeezing whatever they can out of new artists and tossing them out after their first dud album. Bands who make the mistake of signing with major labels almost always lose money. See Steve Albini's early-'90s essay "The Problem With Music." Thomas Frank's book The Conquest of Cool, about corporate co-opting of genuine emergent trends, is also a good read in the "what's the matter with kids today" vein.

We don't have a monoculture anymore. Blame cable. Blame the re-segregation of radio stations that came with the FM band. There's a lot of interesting work being done in different genres (few of which involve guitars; I mean, if you were a young person today, wouldn't you want to make something new?), but you have to look for that stuff yourself. The thing is that thanks to the internet, it isn't actually that hard.

You have to look back a lot further than 1990 to find things going wrong with radio. Good guitar-based music and guitar-based music that made it on the radio started diverging sometime in the early '70s. You ask whether the Beatles could make it today; I ask you, why couldn't Big Star make it in 1972? How come Nilsson and Randy Newman only had novelty hits? Why didn't Roxy Music make it over here? What went wrong for Nick Drake and Sandy Denny and Arthur Lee and David Ackles and the Velvet Underground? Besides, if the Beatles, cutting-edge as they were, were around today, I find it hard to believe that they'd be a rock band.

I'm guessing that you missed out on the decades of vital and interesting and also commercially successful hip hop we just had. Wu-Tang? Outkast? Black Star? What about the exciting, futuristic pop music Missy Elliott and Timbaland were making back in 2001, before Tim gave up ecstasy? Going back futher: Eric B and Rakim? Public Enemy? I get that you don't like dumb lyrics, but blaming Dr. Dre (successful because he's such a great producer; you know that everybody knows he's not much of a rapper, right?) for not being Joni Mitchell is like blaming Rick James for not being Graham Parker or something.

R175--your are so wrong. "BIg Yellow Taxi" was not a big hit for Joni Mitchell, but for other people who covered it ("The Family" whoever that was, and Amy Grant). Her big hit was "Help Me," which was much more trite.

Which is unfortunate, because she wrote several brilliant songs that will never be appreciated. (On the other hand, if a tree falls in the woods in a brilliant manner and no one witnesses it, is it brilliant?) She wrote the most brilliant pop song of the 20th century (and, no, Judy Collins didn't record it).

And, onto other topics, regarding Nilsson and novelty hits--you almost have a good point (and you do, regarding Randy Newman). Nilsson made his career on non-novelty hits, his "Everybody's Talking," which I figure was his biggest hit, and Badfinger's "Without You." (Not to mention what is probably his most familiar work, the theme from "The Courtship of Eddie's Father.") Sure, he had some brilliant novelty songs ("I'd Rather Be Dead" and "The Most Beautiful World in the World") but that's not what he was known for.

On the other hand, I think your post was thoughtful and insightful. I just disagree with parts of it.

R175: Wu Tang, Outkast, et al will not last. Period. They have as much relevance as Metallica or Blue Oyster Cult.

Nick Drake has enjoyed a huge cult following for years. Ditto Denny. As for The Velvet Underground, they are arguably the most overrated band of the 60's (Creedence, the Beach Boys, and the Kinks are close behind). Whenever people go on about their first album I ask, "what about the rest?"

Btw, Big Star was also way overrated. Some nice pop songs and that's it.

I find it interesting--and ironic--that you admit to your stupidity R175. You only know one song by Mitchell. Lol. 30? More like 13. Adolescents don't look any further. What is startling is that you only know one song by Mitchell, but know about Sandy Denny. That makes you either a fraud or an idiot.

Much like popular music. Hugs.

First of all, ranger, I disagree violently about the Beach Boys, the Kinks and the Velvet Underground, and think that Creedence is if anything underrated. The Velvets' second and third albums are as good as their first. (Not a "Sister Ray" fan?) I don't totally love Big Star either, but my point was really that they would have been huge if the times and the radio hadn't changed. That Velvets stuff, etc., is all a matter of taste, of course. But I'm sorry and surprised that you can't see what other people might have been seeing in Wu-Tang or Outkast for all these years. That first great Wu-Tang album is 17 years old, and nobody's calling it overrated yet. (Whereas you do hear rumblings about The Chronic, for example.)

"I find it interesting--and ironic--that you admit to your stupidity R175. You only know one song by Mitchell. Lol. 30? More like 13."

This makes me not care that you're missing out, though. Did you read what you're talking about? I said A LOT OF PEOPLE MY AGE. Obviously that's limited to the sample of people I've talked to. But if I'd been talking about myself, I would have fucking said so.

Why are you conflating stupidity with ignorance anyway? There's more than 50 years of rock (and soul and country and and jazz and folk and avant-garde) albums to listen to, plus what's going on now, which requires more work than just turning on the radio. In fact, if you were born after the radio stopped playing Joni Mitchell, it is very possible to arrive at Sandy Denny first, if you come across the right blog post, or if her records are being reissued and (this is the important part) reviewed that month, or if you hear her on a college station, or if you start with Nick Drake (who really is a starting point for a lot of people; for a certain tight-sweater subset, he's kind of a James Dean, and certainly better-known than Joni is) and then weave your way across Island Records to Fairport Convention. Most of what you, ranger, grew up with and learned about in chronological order is going to get lost in the shuffle for younger people, who are rarely as geeky and autistic about this stuff as I am. I don't feel bad for you, either, because you're being an asshole. You are serving as an excellent cautionary figure, though.

For the record, I tried Court and Spark a long time ago and couldn't find a way into it. I liked but haven't spent any time with Hissing of Summer Lawns. I love "Amelia." I'll get to more of her work eventually, but right now I'm more interested in dance music and in loud vacuum cleaner-like noises. (That is my impression of a crotchety older person.) I probably am an idiot, though, because I would have saved us both a lot of time if I'd just told you to fuck off. Oh well!

I agree somewhat with Joni about Madonna, a no talent whose assent coincided with the perception equals everything/if you are successful than you have value era, an epoch in which idiocy and materiality have been legitimized heralding the worship of people like Carrie Bradshaw, George Bush and Sarah Palin.

However, Madonna is not a cause of this mass hysteria, she's merely a symptom. Perhaps, though she is like Nero, fiddling through all of this.

[quote] Creedence, the Beach Boys, and the Kinks are close behind

ROFL.

You know nothing about rock.

The Kinks invented the power chord, a rock mainstay.

The Beach Boys introduced layered sound to rock and roll.

Ask Sir George Martin, a man who crafted some of the best of rock and roll about the Beach Boys and how "overrated" they are. He'd box your flat ears.

Where does Joni get her old lady hippie clothes? You think she has them made for her? She should start a clothing line for retired female boomers who no longer need to wear skirt suits to the office.

[quote]The Kinks invented the power chord, a rock mainstay.

And many people think Ray Davies is the best rock lyricist ever.

he tried to pass heself off as part native American. WHen someone reearched her history and found she was plain old Scots irish and Norwegian, she tried to claim she was part Lapplander. She's just determined to seem exotic.

She's not an American Indian? Oh, no! I'll never look at "A Case of You" the same way again.

hi R174...the title is "Joni Mitchell, Woman of Heart and Mind".

You can find it on Amazon. It was made for Canadian public television and its really, really good.

Pretty hard to not acknowledge her genius after viewing this.

I found it most interesting to hear what other music/industry people thought of her when she was first appearing on the "scene". Basically, they were all blown away.

I have followed her career for over forty years and have always kept my ear open for any kind of personal tidbits. She is not too big on the "star making machinery", but all other reports tell of her genuine kindness and fondness for a good time.

(Go to her website, jonimitchell.com and search "Wally Breese' if you want to read a story that will break your heart.)

Creedence is faux grunge, soul music for middle class white children too shallow to deal with the real thing.

Ray Davies is not a great lyricist--"Waterloo Sunset" is his peak, and there are maybe a handful of other songs that matter. Everything after 1968 is irrelevant, including the annoying and much overplayed "Lola."

The Velvet Underground is art rock at its most superficial. "Sister Ray" is pointless, and the only album that does work--"Loaded"--is successful because it marginalizes Lou Reed's worst excesses.

A friend of mine met her once in Canada a few years ago. Said he was amazed at how friendly she was, and very down to earth. Said she was very funny when they chatted, and admitted that for someone on her years she gave off a "real vibe."

And this is someone who is tres gay. One of my fave anecdotes about Mitchell. When she was with David Crosby, he would score very, very good pot and get people high. Then he would ask Mitchell to sing her songs to them. They would be so stunned that they would sit there in a trance. The Beach Boys stopped growing around 1966. It was all over after that, and Brian Wilson knew it. Hence the breakdown. Hence his later rueful admission that the Beatles got there and he did not (because he could not).

Sandy Denny is very, very underrated. Great singer, songwriter, and why she never found an audience is beyond me. "Unhalfbricking" is a forgotten masterpiece by Fairport Convention, and one of these days people will rediscover "Fotheringay."

This is crazy! Bob Dylan has more talent in the tip of his finger than Joni Mitchell will have in 20 lifetimes.

Both Denny and Nick Drake suffered from stage fright, and in Drake's case he stopped doing live shows altogether early on in his career which hurt record sales.Denny is criminally underrated and unheard .

Loved her "Hissing of Summer Lawns" and "Court and Spark" albums on Asylum. She got along fine with Linda Ronstadt, Bonnie Raitt & even Cher when she was living with David Geffen in the 70s. She used to get excited on her way to the toaster back then. She couldn't understand why rock stars weren't excited about their new albums.

[quote]Joni Mitchell has a huge lesbian following, always has.

She gets us in touch with our girlie feelings.

[quote]Creedence is faux grunge, soul music for middle class white children too shallow to deal with the real thing. Creedence was music by and for working class whites.

Why would Joni slag Carole King? What did Carole King do to her?

She was at her record company office in the 90s and had a cd of a young female artist she liked so she played it for the suits. They didn't like it, so she said "But this woman is talented!" and they said "We're not looking for people with talent, we're looking for people who will do what we tell them!"

No

I believe it, r193.

I prefer Joni Mitchell's songs to anything done by Madonna.

Poor old (old, old, old) Joni. Sour grapes much? I never heard her speak up for the rights of women, gays, the poor - maybe you have to be a Nero to be concerned about those things. Talent does not equate with moral integrity in spite of her supposedly moral high ground. As for the catty remarks about Joplin, Slick, ect. keep calling the kettle black, Joni, keep calling her black!

Stop bumping dead posts, asshat!

[quote]Sandy Denny is very, very underrated. Great singer, songwriter, and why she never found an audience is beyond me. "Unhalfbricking" is a forgotten masterpiece by Fairport Convention, and one of these days people will rediscover "Fotheringay."

This can't be said enough

She's 100% right, although I'd say Madonna is a symptom, not the root cause.

.

Agree with her completely about Madonna.

who is Joni Mitchell and why does she hate a living legend?

[quote] who is Joni Mitchell and why does she hate a living legend?

Madonna is a crass old cunt. Hardly a living legend.

[quote] Of course she considers Janet Jackson a musical genius.

Not fucking hardly. Letting someone sample your song doesn't mean you love them. Laura Nyro, Chrissie Hynde and Carole King are on a super fucking short list of other female singers Joni either admires or tolerates.

I hate Bob Dylan too. Voice of a Generation my ass. The guy is worshiped and yet he always sounded like a dying goat when he sang. Madonna just managed to keep herself 'fresh' by hiring popular producers and songwriters at the time. She can't sing or dance and isn't anything special.

Zadie Smith on Joni Mitchell in a recent issue of The New Yorker:

There's a great article about Jomi Mitchell in the New Yorker. I think her music will stand the test of time while Madonna's...not so much.

Joni Mitchell is really a genius even if she seems like a bitch.

When I graduated from college in the late 1970s, I was very happy if only because I knew that I would never, ever have to sit in someone's dorm room again and listen to Joni Mitchell's BLUE.

[quote]Does anyone believe that in 20 years there will be a thread about the genius of Lady Gaga or Amy Winehouse

I still like to listen occasionally to a lot of old music that was pure pop junk when it came out and still is...There are a lot of pleasures in Paul Revere and the Raiders or even Gary Lewis and the Playboys that Joni Mitchell can't duplicate. I'd writhe in pain if I had to listen to BLUE every again, although I readily acknowledge that in terms of the level of musicianship, it's probably more advanced than "Palisades Park."

And the Velvet Underground just stomps all over her stuff, IMO.

Stand the test of time? It's fucking pop music. It's about turning on a song and you just start moving to it. Madonna's top songs like "Holiday" will be in rotation on the radio forever while you'd be hard pressed to find one song of Mitchell's that is ever heard regularly on the radio, even today.

I wish Mitchell's fans would square off against Sondheim's fans. Now that is a battle that should be entertaining.

I hear ya, R209. I had a friend in college in the 80s who went through a phase where she mewled along with that damn record incessantly. It was a good 15 years before I could listen to a Joni record, and even now the only one I can tolerate is Hejira. And I no longer speak to the friend.

[quote] Madonna's top songs like "Holiday" will be in rotation on the radio forever while you'd be hard pressed to find one song of Mitchell's that is ever heard regularly on the radio, even today.

Popular doesn't mean quality. If you ask musicians - e.g. the people who actually know and care about music, and not the unwashed tasteless masses who buy three albums a year and know fuck all - they ALL acknowledge the genius of Joni.

The only thing those musicians acknowledge Madge Ciccone for is being a moneygrubbing whore. It won't be her repetitive songs (which she didn't write on her own) or her thin-as-helium voice.

lol, what industry professional DOESN'T hate Madonna? She may have some catchy songs (many that I listen to regularly in fact) but let's not BS - she is by all accounts a terrible person.

There was the James Morrison thing, and I was also kinda shocked to read she didn't even have time for the guy who wrote "Like A Virgin" (ie. basically made her career) when they first met.

James Morrison also called Madonna the rudest celebrity he's met. Ouch!

If anyone wants to know why Joni Mitchell's overbite sank like a stone from history, just listen to her Paprika Plains.

Huh, R216, I'm sure she'll be interested to know that her career ended with Paprika Plains (an admittedly long and pointless song).

She's had half a dozen albums since then and won two Grammys, plus the Herbie Hancock album of her music won Record Of The Year.

Yep, sounds like oblivion to me.

I'd love to see a dance piece set to Paprika Plains, cause "I'm floating back, I'm floating back to you."

Joni Mitchell was one of the most brilliant songwriters of modern times. Yet she has spent half of her career not quite coming up with the song she will always be known for--"Hey, you kids! Get Off My Lawn!"

"Americans have decided to be stupid and shallow since 1980. Madonna is like Nero; she marks the turning point."

This is really true.

Not that I don't find her attacks completely entertaining, and I'm no Madonna or Dylan lover. But, Mitchell is totally overrated. Clearly, she believes her narrow hype.

some times I think the lack of repore these old Artists had with their fan s is unbelievable .. why would they be so self glorified and pumped up about their own shit all the time Ignorance is bliss I think the eras of music have evolved into sections of plagerism if u look closely I am glad we have the Internet bunch of crabby over rated Artists I dont mind Joni s sufferage or her work she really has alot to say but she needs to build bridges and get on with her parodys ....she doesnt seem very grateful

Dear R222,

Please go back to school.

Signed,

Miss Spelling Grade Two Teacher

Good thing that biopic with Taylor Swift seems to be dead in the water.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[quote] Grace Slick and Janis Joplin (allegedly they were "[sleeping with] their whole bands

𝑨𝒍𝒍𝒆𝒈𝒆𝒅𝒍𝒚 ?

[quote]"Americans have decided to be stupid and shallow since 1980. Madonna is like Nero; she marks the turning point."

When she's right, she's right.